Thanks. Call me old fashioned, but it works and I have never found the need for anything else. That is not true of the knots and hitches I use and so that is where I have focused my time.
Howdy JRB. I have always been a climbing treestand hunter. Way back making a test I discovered that the belt safety harness would kill a feller pretty quick. So I designed a 3 point and my wife sewed it up. It worked, some....the same as a pro 3 point I got later. The thing would turn you upside down if you let go of the rope. Time rocks on and I grab the very first proper harness ever made, I guess... the Fall of the Woods. I still use it. Lastly I came up with a dirt simple repelling system to get down safely. Or so I thought. After numerous tests over the years my son managed to throw in a wrinkle which defeated the darn thing sending me back to school looking for a Plan B. That's what brought me here. The braking system I discovered is simply this. All yuh need is a piece of rope like yours and and old fashioned smooth carabiner. Exactly 2 wraps of the rope on the tree end and you can let yourself down with two fingers.....and I'm talking guys weighing 250 pounds. I'd do about 150 more tests on the thing before I'd call it perfected....there is a possibility of one wrap riding over the other and binding....but I have tested many times and it always worked for me. In my case, this is all fine and dandy...but how to hang from the carabiner when you want and repel when you want is THE problem. Thought I had it solved. It wouldn't take much....but whatever the gimmick, it escapes me today. I'm no engineer. It's only been a few hours my time when I discovered I was hanging by a thread for all these years and didn't know it.
I worked with a few arborists when i was younger who would employ a similar technique when they were cutting and I was lowering a large chunk of the tree. A few wraps can create a ton of friction. But it does vary depending on the roughness, diameter and dryness of the part providing the friction. It also causes wear on the rope and tree. If ya rappel just a few times out of a Sycamore or Beech or smooth Maple, we'll burn thru the cambium. But the biggest problem is that most hunters are climbing trees that don't have branches and tying into the trunks directly. We need a solution that works in every situation. Cheers
@@jrbtc You'd think by now we'd have the solution. Fact of the matter today in Alabama we have had years recently where nobody died in the woods as the result of a gunshot. In every instance it was treestand related. I understand what you said that the two loops is hard on the rope, but in the climber world you're most likely to ever need it only once. Thought I had that licked for decades and my son just blew me out of the water. First test he lowered himself into the loopy harness like we all did and it worked perfectly. When I went to video him the next time he was in his treestand and he let himself back down to take the slack out of the harness and kinda sat down quickly. That broke my system, same as woulda happened if I had fallen into the harness. That's something we'd never done before. Oh well. GREAT to hear from you. I am old hunter and less agile.... Gotta stick with my API stand. Ha. Got a little longer to use it.
I still primarily am using my belay device (GriGri) for rapelling, but I practice with the munter as a backup. Used to carry a figure8, but figured I always have a few biners on me so the munter is a good backup. Always good to have redundancy. Good video!
Thank you for sharing your creations. I used the munter to rappel and didn't like using a prusik as back up with it attached to the side of my harness. I have 40 foot of rope for single sticking and rappel so I used your system on it and it worked better than expected. Thank you so much. I may not ever uses climbing stick again.
@@tommydansby5481 prusik is a great back up for rappelling, some folks have a hard time with them just from muscle memory not being formed , when i started climbing friction hitches like we have now weren’t even invented yet , like the blake’s hitch , which was actually invented by a eu fella and blake got the glory of getting the hitch named after him or else it would have been called the heinz prohuska , thanks jason blake lol but kidding aside i would never climb or rappel without a proper friction hitch or a well renowned apparatus designed to do so , a lot of times folks new to friction hitches , me included hated them because they were a pain when they get loaded, that’s why what you use is important , when your friction hitches are a tad smaller than your lifeline they work better at grabbing but always use the best quality approved rope for your friction hitches, i started doing much better with a prusik when i started positioning it just right over my rappelling point and holding that point directly over the prusik and using the prusik knot as your slide tool basically and your lower hand to control the rappelling feed , , if you still have a hard time try a french prusik, you can look up how to rig it and it’s less likely to load up on you
Good deal. In general, think about every single thing that could possibly go wrong and have a plan. For a one sticker, my main concern is a stick kickout or completely disappearing at any time during the climb including the first set. I see a lotta one stickers who don't attach a tether until they are 8ft off the ground. My next concern is management of slack. Keep slack at an absolute minimum. Cheers and good luck
Great demonstration on "upgrading the munter". In my unit, we use the Munter a lot for rope rescue while in kit. (Plate carrier etc.) Needless to say we get pretty heavy and I always have trouble remembering how to get into the "super munter". 🤙
Excellent. I'm happy to help. There are some other tricks we can do to fine-tune this and get even more friction. But I decided to make this one about the basics
Thanks great demonstration of the Munter hitch. I saw it used by firemen on the TV show Emergency 51 using a massive carabiner. I would only use it if all I had was a carabiner though since I would need the super Munter with an extra turn at 225lbs. I try to keep a rescue 8 with me incase my Petzl ID has a problem.
Thx. I am old enough to remember that show lol. As a hunter, I have had to execute rappels in cold conditions, in near darkness where my fingers were too cold to function and I have a rule that nothing I need is capable of being dropped. I have a few figure 8s but don't like needing to tether them, nor the metal on metal... and so i just keep it simple and Munter down.
John, is there a reason you could bring the tag end over you thee fingers twice, then engage the biner? this introduces more friction, keeps the tag end away from the hinge, AND keeps the tag end in the right hand.
@@toddw9518 i am not sure if you mean to add this to the munter or use it instead of the munter. We would not use it instead simply because if our hand slipped off the brake strand, it would not provide much. But we can add wraps inside the munter, either side, to provide additional friction. It's a good reason to use a large carabiner.
@@jrbtc No, that's not it. Stop the video at 5:00minutes. At this point I add another loop around tips of the fingers then engage the biner. There would be one strand on the front left, then back rope, and 2 strands on the front right. Hope this cleared it up a little.
@toddw9518 yes, we agree... and we can add that extra turn on either side of the carabiner, on the brake strand or on the inside... both will add an incremental amount of friction. But we still need to manage spin. But because hunters will need to do all this with gloves on in freezing conditions and cold fingers, in my own experience and experiments, the options I show in this video are adequate. But it's a great point. If i do another video on it, I can add that detail. Thanks!
Sorry for the delay in responding...somehow I missed it. My website has a page for Carabiners and will (currently) get you a discount on the Petzl William Ball carabiner used in this video. jrbtreeclimbing.com/
John - how do you recommend switching to the munter if the friction hitch cannot be broken? In other words - how can you introduce slack enough to unclip the friction hitch from your bridge, so you can rappel on just the munter and abandon the hitch? I have seen the foot loop videos but that is still using the main rappel line, which would be taught. So how do we self rescue from an unbreakable friction hitch and only having one rappel line? what am I missing?
It's a perfect question: we need to be able to break our friction hitch to get started. It's one of the reasons I introduced 3 which can be broken: Double Michoacán, 523 JRB Ascender and Longhorn Agile. But if you're not using one of them and found yourself on a Distel or Prusik, there are techniques outlined in this video: ruclips.net/video/1P2DytGuXXU/видео.html In an emergency, we can also use the "midline munter loop"... search for that video titie.
@@jrbtc got it. the key piece I was missing was adding the munter before adding the foot loop, then use the foot loop, hold the munter, unclip the friction hitch from the bridge, weight the munter, disassemble the footloop. Just tried it in my basement and it worked! appreciate it.
@@youtoober87 if you have the strength to just fold a bight of rope, put your foot in it and squeeze long enough to unload your hitch, that's the way to go. Not only is it quicker, but less risk. It can be difficult to remove a Garda while holding tension and ya don't want to risk that the rope slips in your hand while doing so, cuz the Garda could get sucked into the munter. Still recoverable, but ya gotta start over by stepping up and loading your hitch. If we were discussing it in person, I would try to convince you to safely use a different friction hitch.
@@jrbtc Thanks. I actually use the double rope munter for an emergency foot loop that you showed instead of a garda. I do use a breakable cornell hitch, and that is my normal plan. But I want to be prepared to be able to get off the hitch completely if for some reason it became unbreakable (maybe something got pulled into it, maybe I'm injured). Appreciate the videos.
As you have correctly surmised, most friction hitches can't not be broken under the load of our body with such ease. In this video, I am using the 523 jrb ascender hitch. It is one of several friction hitches which I have introduced and are available here on my channel which have the ability to be broken under load for most individuals and cord and rope combinations.
I have two questions: First; so far in my quest for saddle hunting knowledge, you are the only person I see using the swivel carabiner (this may not be the proper term) on your primary bridge. What is the perpose of this device vs a regular screw lock carabiner? Second question: how does weather, particularly rain, affect the friction hitches on the climbing rope? I’m just concerned about my rope getting wet from the ground (standing water a few inches deep) or getting caught in a rain shower. It is usually wet where I hunt and if a wet rope is unsafe this may not be a viable hunting method for me.
Excellent questions. 1. A swivel is not necessary in the majority of scenarios. However, here's a few where its nice. Note that I don't switch to a tether, and so its all about keeping our lines from getting crossed. Sometimes i climb up a complex tree with multiple bends, branches or trunks and my sitting position in the canopy is completely the opposite of how i started the climb. It's nice not to have my lines crossed when i get settled. Another scenario is that a deer is circling or flanking you and as ya follow him through the forest, the two rope strands are getting twisted. 2. Yes, Water can have an effect on the hold of friction hitches. Webbing is affected more than cord. In my experience, using other friction hitches such as Bachman and Michoacán, when a friction hitch slips, it's a slow creep, not a drastic slip. And a pinch on the top typically stops it. But I have hunted through major rainstorms on the 523 JRB Ascender Hitch without any slipping issues. I have also tested it after soaking in water. I am not saying it can't slip when wet, but I have not experienced it on 523. When i get to the top of my climb, i can remove the footloop and put in the munter right away. This way, even if a friction hitch slipped ( for any reason) i am safe and ready for rappel.
Couldn’t you just rappel with two or three around a carabiner? Also couldn’t you just take the end of the rope after you tie the Munter hitch and bring it around your body and hold with your opposite hand to add more leverage/friction?
This video is about the munter and how I use it. I haven't used, nor could I recommend the methods listed. For example, if we get the Munter set just right and the rope slips out of our hand, we should not go into a totally uncontrolled, accelerating fall. Because the Munter continues to provide friction. I don't believe that would go the same way with the suggested techniques.
John, do you have a video on how you climbed. You didn't appear to have a preset loop and were not using a climbing stick of any kind. I am very interested in the details on how you ascended the tree for this video.
Chad, as i mentioned in the video and in the video captions, I climb using my JRB Hitch Climbing Method. This is the playlist... so far, all I have done is introduced concept to see if anybody else had been doing it. Or anything similar because the knots used are all my own. Next season, I will be developing more content on this playlist, as I have made several improvements to the method since publishing this initial video. ruclips.net/p/PLETL-PceEXkbOxNPBrpcIFnpl2HUmSrwM
Thanks John, I've watched that video but you have clearly made some changes as the 2x4 was not incorporated. I look forward to the updates. Thanks again for all the content it is much appreciated and extremely helpful
@@chadgoebel7476 yes... i will get to that... but summarizing the changes since that video: 1. Using the JRB Ascender hitch. Its much better than anything else. 2. Eliminated the small (yellow) tending loop. 3. Although the hard bottom footloop is more comfortable, it's not my standard footloop and i want one system to take in the woods and climb with different methods. And so, i am still tweaking the best way to setup the standard footloop to do both jobs. I am considering a few other things too.
Regarding rope wear from friction, here are some test results published in Hitch Climbers' Guide to the Canopy. The tests measure the point at which the polyester in a friction hitch cord loses its "tactility". The length of rope run through the hitch versus speed of descent is: 1,000m of rope run at 1m/s (test stopped due to time constraints); 220m of rope at 2m/s; 40m of rope at 3m/s. Conclusion- friction heat alters polyester. Go slow!
That's interesting info. Thx for sharing. My intuition says that there are other variables in the test. For example, single vs doubled rope, what if any load is on the hitch, what hitch, and how tight it is.
There are more details available on page 13 of this paper that was jointly published by DMM, Treemagineers and Teufelberger. It can be downloaded at www.treemagineers.com/pdf/hitch_climbers_guide.pdf .
I have never attempted this nor could I recommend it. I am sure we could pull it off, but that doesn't make it a good idea. Climbing ropes are designed with a rugged sheath over an inner core and can handle friction. To my knowledge, a winch line is optimized for strength only, not abrasion.
John, the info you are providing is fantastic. I'm Saddle hunting running climb sticks and rappelling down using a figure 8 and prusik, you convince me to use your JRB Ascender Hitch and Munter Friction Hitch, relieving my fear of dropping the figure 8. Since I use a linemen belt which hitch the JRB Ascender Hitch or Michoacan Hitch to replace the Prusik Hitch on the linemen rope? I subscribed to JRB Tree Climbing and Saddle Hunting on Face Book, how long does it take to be accepted? Thanks John
Thank you. As you know, this is a new knot, and so all of the information is new and evolving here as I publish it. For now, I would recommend that you become proficient at tying it, and soon I will upload some new content on how to use it in a lineman's belt or tether.
Is the Rescue 8 device droppable? Meaning, do you have to handle it loose to engage it? I have hunted in the cold to the point that my fingers didn't work and I just wanna avoid needing anything I can drop.
@ i have used a variant like this for years when i am forced to use a carabiner to rappel and my rescue 8 is new and until the finish wears in a little it’s really slick so with my 215 lbs i need the friction, i’ve fallen with style many times because of lack of friction and for all the green newbies that can be harder on your ropes to rappel faster with less hitch on your device so to add friction at your device doesn’t always add damaging friction to your ropes , it’s actually quite opposite from some of my past 100’ dive bomb drops , long story short this is a great hitch if you are big and need friction
Another question, I have noticed you are using Sterling Oplux with these knots, as well as Sterling accessory cord. Do you have experience with these hitches/ropes when the rope is wet? Have you used other ropes such as the Canyon C-IV? I am considering purchasing a longer rope and trying to narrow down my options. Thanks!
The exact properties of every wrap and cord combination can be different when wet. For example, I took Sterling Oplux and soaked it in a bucket of water overnight and then tested Michoacán friction hitches with 6mm cord... and they needed one more wrap to hold. And so my general recommendation is that: wet test your stuff as appropriate, add a wrap as appropriate, and of course, in actual climbing systems such as the JRB Climbing Method, we are never dependent on the Integrity or hold of any single friction hitch. Because we have built-in redundancy. And we can always get to ground safely without assistance.
Petzl William Ball Carabiner. Triple action and not to be confused with the "William", which I do not own, but I believe is the same shape but a screw gate.
I've used munter (aka "Italian hitch") a lot for mountaineering to both belay and rappel (abseil) because it works on heavily ice crusted ropes when devices don't work. It is essential knowledge but it has high rope sheath wear and twists the ropes, more a problem on long rappels. You do a lot of rappelling with munter/Italian and the ropes don't handle as nicely after that. Great to know but not my go-to method
Fyi, have climbed and rappelled nearly every day on a rope with the munter and at the end of 4 years when I retired the rope based on manufacturer recommendations, the rope still looked new with noticeable wear. I had read that it is rough on the sheath but in practice, I learned otherwise. And you are correct that it can add spin in the rope during the rappel, however, that can be neutralized by varying the angle at which we feed slack in. However, typical rappels for a saddle hunter are only 25ft or 8m. A mountaineering application could be much longer and require precision in the technique. Thank you.
It's just one of those places where complexity doesn't buy us anything. Rappel is easy... gravity is with us... we just have to manage the friction wisely.
I have many ropes with different compositions. The biggest variables are the diameter and stiffness of the rope and the size of the carabiners. But I haven't found a combination that doesn't work.
I am familiar with the clove hitch and disagree: the super munter is not a variant of it. The Clove doesn't change direction: the turns go the same way around the host. Also, the clove hitch cinches, and that is not a feature we want in a friction brake.
@ i had to look at it a few times on rewind , i didn’t see it right away, at first glance it got me , i know if a clove would take a third turn it would lock up , i did have my glasses on when i watched it again ☺️
Running the line across the screw gate could unscrew it. Right or left handed shouldn't matter. Run the line against the spine to avoid a foreseeable accident.
Appreciate the input. 2 comments: 1. Unlike conventional use of the munter, i demonstrate feeding line in from above ensuring no contact with the gate; only the top of the carabiner. This also neutralizes spin. 2. Screw gates aren't considered appropriate for these applications by modern standards. Use a triple action, auto locking, pear shaped carabiner.
@@jrbtc maybe but to be honest I have bigger worries because even if it did unscrew you would be pushing it closed, sure something to watch out for but the problem can be managed. Autolocking/twist can be bad in muddy (caving) or icy (mountaineering) or sandy locations so *sometimes* screwgate is safer
This demonstration, in my opinion, should be required introductory material for aboricultural training. In the standard curriculum, Munter's hitch still gets hardly more than a passing mention to this day, at least where I am based (NZ). Weight variation of the effective life support load in arboriculture is significant, even without including rescue scenario loads (double the weight). My height is just 1.8 metres and my build is relatively light. I haven't weighed myself in the last few years, I would estimate it to be now between 70 and 80 kilograms (I consistently hovered around there since my third decade and I sense myself to be carrying about the same amount to this day). Add weight of harness, along with the changing requirements from one day to the next, maybe a rigging line and block or rings, sometimes a few kilograms' worth of rear handle chainsaw to attend to mid-size timber or maybe the more occasional ten kilograms' worth of MS661 for cutting some large timber at elevation when the circumstances necessitate it. Before you know it, my effective total load can vary across the range of 15 kilograms, on the higher end potentially pushing (or should it be pulling) past 90 kilograms. Knowing how to scale the friction appropriately should be a fundamental aspect. Thank you for sharing.
Appreciate that. I had no idea this would be such a popular video. Coming down on a rope is simple: gravity is with us. Once we master that, it's pretty simple to add a Garda Hitch footloop and use the same system to go UP the tree.
Cool. It's more than just money though. If I thought a $200 device was safer, I would be telling you to buy it. But what if it got stuck or just didn't hold? How would we get out of that situation? I can't say because I can't see inside the device to make an educated decision. And our life hangs in the balance, literally. With a Munter, and a good hitch, you can see exactly what's going on and control it. Rappel is actually kinda easy: gravity does the work. We just control it. Cheers
Appreciate that. It's just old school stuff with a new look. I test it out and am never in a rush to do a video. I do all I can to learn everything i can before I pass it along. Cheers
Just saved me some money I'm scribing I'm here to learn and not fall to my premature dead to death I'm gonna be trained even if my little downsy head explodes from to much info I'm gonna be slower than a 180 year old arthritic Sleuth in a tree until I get my nogan wrapped around all the ways to do arborist work safely
The best demonstration on the Munter Hitch. Master Class is priceless and very much appreciated.
Thanks. Call me old fashioned, but it works and I have never found the need for anything else. That is not true of the knots and hitches I use and so that is where I have focused my time.
@@jrbtc Thank you and good health to you.
Howdy JRB. I have always been a climbing treestand hunter. Way back making a test I discovered that the belt safety harness would kill a feller pretty quick. So I designed a 3 point and my wife sewed it up. It worked, some....the same as a pro 3 point I got later. The thing would turn you upside down if you let go of the rope. Time rocks on and I grab the very first proper harness ever made, I guess... the Fall of the Woods. I still use it. Lastly I came up with a dirt simple repelling system to get down safely. Or so I thought. After numerous tests over the years my son managed to throw in a wrinkle which defeated the darn thing sending me back to school looking for a Plan B. That's what brought me here.
The braking system I discovered is simply this. All yuh need is a piece of rope like yours and and old fashioned smooth carabiner. Exactly 2 wraps of the rope on the tree end and you can let yourself down with two fingers.....and I'm talking guys weighing 250 pounds.
I'd do about 150 more tests on the thing before I'd call it perfected....there is a possibility of one wrap riding over the other and binding....but I have tested many times and it always worked for me.
In my case, this is all fine and dandy...but how to hang from the carabiner when you want and repel when you want is THE problem. Thought I had it solved. It wouldn't take much....but whatever the gimmick, it escapes me today. I'm no engineer. It's only been a few hours my time when I discovered I was hanging by a thread for all these years and didn't know it.
I worked with a few arborists when i was younger who would employ a similar technique when they were cutting and I was lowering a large chunk of the tree. A few wraps can create a ton of friction. But it does vary depending on the roughness, diameter and dryness of the part providing the friction. It also causes wear on the rope and tree. If ya rappel just a few times out of a Sycamore or Beech or smooth Maple, we'll burn thru the cambium. But the biggest problem is that most hunters are climbing trees that don't have branches and tying into the trunks directly. We need a solution that works in every situation. Cheers
@@jrbtc You'd think by now we'd have the solution. Fact of the matter today in Alabama we have had years recently where nobody died in the woods as the result of a gunshot. In every instance it was treestand related. I understand what you said that the two loops is hard on the rope, but in the climber world you're most likely to ever need it only once. Thought I had that licked for decades and my son just blew me out of the water. First test he lowered himself into the loopy harness like we all did and it worked perfectly. When I went to video him the next time he was in his treestand and he let himself back down to take the slack out of the harness and kinda sat down quickly. That broke my system, same as woulda happened if I had fallen into the harness. That's something we'd never done before. Oh well. GREAT to hear from you. I am old hunter and less agile.... Gotta stick with my API stand. Ha. Got a little longer to use it.
Thanks for much needed examples for our industry. What every Saddle hunter needs to know.
Thank you!
I still primarily am using my belay device (GriGri) for rapelling, but I practice with the munter as a backup. Used to carry a figure8, but figured I always have a few biners on me so the munter is a good backup. Always good to have redundancy. Good video!
Thank you for sharing your creations. I used the munter to rappel and didn't like using a prusik as back up with it attached to the side of my harness. I have 40 foot of rope for single sticking and rappel so I used your system on it and it worked better than expected. Thank you so much. I may not ever uses climbing stick again.
@@tommydansby5481 prusik is a great back up for rappelling, some folks have a hard time with them just from muscle memory not being formed , when i started climbing friction hitches like we have now weren’t even invented yet , like the blake’s hitch , which was actually invented by a eu fella and blake got the glory of getting the hitch named after him or else it would have been called the heinz prohuska , thanks jason blake lol but kidding aside i would never climb or rappel without a proper friction hitch or a well renowned apparatus designed to do so , a lot of times folks new to friction hitches , me included hated them because they were a pain when they get loaded, that’s why what you use is important , when your friction hitches are a tad smaller than your lifeline they work better at grabbing but always use the best quality approved rope for your friction hitches, i started doing much better with a prusik when i started positioning it just right over my rappelling point and holding that point directly over the prusik and using the prusik knot as your slide tool basically and your lower hand to control the rappelling feed , , if you still have a hard time try a french prusik, you can look up how to rig it and it’s less likely to load up on you
thanx , super helpful vid, especially the part about different weight
Great video, thanks. As a beginning single stick hunter, I am going to practice this in case I ever drop my device.
Good deal. In general, think about every single thing that could possibly go wrong and have a plan. For a one sticker, my main concern is a stick kickout or completely disappearing at any time during the climb including the first set. I see a lotta one stickers who don't attach a tether until they are 8ft off the ground. My next concern is management of slack. Keep slack at an absolute minimum. Cheers and good luck
Great demonstration on "upgrading the munter". In my unit, we use the Munter a lot for rope rescue while in kit. (Plate carrier etc.) Needless to say we get pretty heavy and I always have trouble remembering how to get into the "super munter". 🤙
Excellent. I'm happy to help. There are some other tricks we can do to fine-tune this and get even more friction. But I decided to make this one about the basics
@jrbtc Kiss method always works best especially with us nugs in the miltary lol.
Another winner. Love the figure eight too
Thanks great demonstration of the Munter hitch. I saw it used by firemen on the TV show Emergency 51 using a massive carabiner. I would only use it if all I had was a carabiner though since I would need the super Munter with an extra turn at 225lbs. I try to keep a rescue 8 with me incase my Petzl ID has a problem.
Thx. I am old enough to remember that show lol. As a hunter, I have had to execute rappels in cold conditions, in near darkness where my fingers were too cold to function and I have a rule that nothing I need is capable of being dropped. I have a few figure 8s but don't like needing to tether them, nor the metal on metal... and so i just keep it simple and Munter down.
Thanks for sending me to this video! Looks like a great way to rappel!
John, is there a reason you could bring the tag end over you thee fingers twice, then engage the biner? this introduces more friction, keeps the tag end away from the hinge, AND keeps the tag end in the right hand.
@@toddw9518 i am not sure if you mean to add this to the munter or use it instead of the munter. We would not use it instead simply because if our hand slipped off the brake strand, it would not provide much. But we can add wraps inside the munter, either side, to provide additional friction. It's a good reason to use a large carabiner.
@@jrbtc No, that's not it. Stop the video at 5:00minutes. At this point I add another loop around tips of the fingers then engage the biner. There would be one strand on the front left, then back rope, and 2 strands on the front right. Hope this cleared it up a little.
@toddw9518 yes, we agree... and we can add that extra turn on either side of the carabiner, on the brake strand or on the inside... both will add an incremental amount of friction. But we still need to manage spin. But because hunters will need to do all this with gloves on in freezing conditions and cold fingers, in my own experience and experiments, the options I show in this video are adequate. But it's a great point. If i do another video on it, I can add that detail. Thanks!
You are the man! Thanks for solid climbing advice!
@@chrisrapking2830 happy to help. Be safe
What was it called again?😊
What carabiners do you like for your bridge and lineman’s belt applications? Thanks! Great videos and much appreciated!
Sorry for the delay in responding...somehow I missed it. My website has a page for Carabiners and will (currently) get you a discount on the Petzl William Ball carabiner used in this video.
jrbtreeclimbing.com/
John - how do you recommend switching to the munter if the friction hitch cannot be broken? In other words - how can you introduce slack enough to unclip the friction hitch from your bridge, so you can rappel on just the munter and abandon the hitch? I have seen the foot loop videos but that is still using the main rappel line, which would be taught. So how do we self rescue from an unbreakable friction hitch and only having one rappel line? what am I missing?
It's a perfect question: we need to be able to break our friction hitch to get started. It's one of the reasons I introduced 3 which can be broken: Double Michoacán, 523 JRB Ascender and Longhorn Agile. But if you're not using one of them and found yourself on a Distel or Prusik, there are techniques outlined in this video:
ruclips.net/video/1P2DytGuXXU/видео.html
In an emergency, we can also use the "midline munter loop"... search for that video titie.
@@jrbtc got it. the key piece I was missing was adding the munter before adding the foot loop, then use the foot loop, hold the munter, unclip the friction hitch from the bridge, weight the munter, disassemble the footloop. Just tried it in my basement and it worked! appreciate it.
@@youtoober87 if you have the strength to just fold a bight of rope, put your foot in it and squeeze long enough to unload your hitch, that's the way to go. Not only is it quicker, but less risk. It can be difficult to remove a Garda while holding tension and ya don't want to risk that the rope slips in your hand while doing so, cuz the Garda could get sucked into the munter. Still recoverable, but ya gotta start over by stepping up and loading your hitch. If we were discussing it in person, I would try to convince you to safely use a different friction hitch.
@@jrbtc Thanks. I actually use the double rope munter for an emergency foot loop that you showed instead of a garda. I do use a breakable cornell hitch, and that is my normal plan. But I want to be prepared to be able to get off the hitch completely if for some reason it became unbreakable (maybe something got pulled into it, maybe I'm injured). Appreciate the videos.
Excellent demo .... how did you break your friction hitch with body weight on it?
As you have correctly surmised, most friction hitches can't not be broken under the load of our body with such ease. In this video, I am using the 523 jrb ascender hitch. It is one of several friction hitches which I have introduced and are available here on my channel which have the ability to be broken under load for most individuals and cord and rope combinations.
I have two questions: First; so far in my quest for saddle hunting knowledge, you are the only person I see using the swivel carabiner (this may not be the proper term) on your primary bridge. What is the perpose of this device vs a regular screw lock carabiner? Second question: how does weather, particularly rain, affect the friction hitches on the climbing rope? I’m just concerned about my rope getting wet from the ground (standing water a few inches deep) or getting caught in a rain shower. It is usually wet where I hunt and if a wet rope is unsafe this may not be a viable hunting method for me.
Excellent questions.
1. A swivel is not necessary in the majority of scenarios. However, here's a few where its nice. Note that I don't switch to a tether, and so its all about keeping our lines from getting crossed. Sometimes i climb up a complex tree with multiple bends, branches or trunks and my sitting position in the canopy is completely the opposite of how i started the climb. It's nice not to have my lines crossed when i get settled. Another scenario is that a deer is circling or flanking you and as ya follow him through the forest, the two rope strands are getting twisted.
2. Yes, Water can have an effect on the hold of friction hitches. Webbing is affected more than cord. In my experience, using other friction hitches such as Bachman and Michoacán, when a friction hitch slips, it's a slow creep, not a drastic slip. And a pinch on the top typically stops it. But I have hunted through major rainstorms on the 523 JRB Ascender Hitch without any slipping issues. I have also tested it after soaking in water. I am not saying it can't slip when wet, but I have not experienced it on 523. When i get to the top of my climb, i can remove the footloop and put in the munter right away. This way, even if a friction hitch slipped ( for any reason) i am safe and ready for rappel.
@@jrbtc thanks for the reply John. I really appreciate your videos. Keep up the good work!
Would love to see some hunting videos in which you have used your climbing method.
Couldn’t you just rappel with two or three around a carabiner? Also couldn’t you just take the end of the rope after you tie the Munter hitch and bring it around your body and hold with your opposite hand to add more leverage/friction?
This video is about the munter and how I use it. I haven't used, nor could I recommend the methods listed. For example, if we get the Munter set just right and the rope slips out of our hand, we should not go into a totally uncontrolled, accelerating fall. Because the Munter continues to provide friction. I don't believe that would go the same way with the suggested techniques.
John, do you have a video on how you climbed. You didn't appear to have a preset loop and were not using a climbing stick of any kind.
I am very interested in the details on how you ascended the tree for this video.
Chad, as i mentioned in the video and in the video captions, I climb using my JRB Hitch Climbing Method. This is the playlist... so far, all I have done is introduced concept to see if anybody else had been doing it. Or anything similar because the knots used are all my own. Next season, I will be developing more content on this playlist, as I have made several improvements to the method since publishing this initial video.
ruclips.net/p/PLETL-PceEXkbOxNPBrpcIFnpl2HUmSrwM
Thanks John, I've watched that video but you have clearly made some changes as the 2x4 was not incorporated. I look forward to the updates.
Thanks again for all the content it is much appreciated and extremely helpful
@@chadgoebel7476 yes... i will get to that... but summarizing the changes since that video:
1. Using the JRB Ascender hitch. Its much better than anything else.
2. Eliminated the small (yellow) tending loop.
3. Although the hard bottom footloop is more comfortable, it's not my standard footloop and i want one system to take in the woods and climb with different methods. And so, i am still tweaking the best way to setup the standard footloop to do both jobs.
I am considering a few other things too.
Regarding rope wear from friction, here are some test results published in Hitch Climbers' Guide to the Canopy. The tests measure the point at which the polyester in a friction hitch cord loses its "tactility". The length of rope run through the hitch versus speed of descent is: 1,000m of rope run at 1m/s (test stopped due to time constraints); 220m of rope at 2m/s; 40m of rope at 3m/s. Conclusion- friction heat alters polyester. Go slow!
That's interesting info. Thx for sharing. My intuition says that there are other variables in the test. For example, single vs doubled rope, what if any load is on the hitch, what hitch, and how tight it is.
There are more details available on page 13 of this paper that was jointly published by DMM, Treemagineers and Teufelberger. It can be downloaded at www.treemagineers.com/pdf/hitch_climbers_guide.pdf .
Could you use synthetic winch rope? Capable of more than enough weight
I have never attempted this nor could I recommend it. I am sure we could pull it off, but that doesn't make it a good idea. Climbing ropes are designed with a rugged sheath over an inner core and can handle friction. To my knowledge, a winch line is optimized for strength only, not abrasion.
John, the info you are providing is fantastic. I'm Saddle hunting running climb sticks and rappelling down using a figure 8 and prusik, you convince me to use your JRB Ascender Hitch and Munter Friction Hitch, relieving my fear of dropping the figure 8. Since I use a linemen belt which hitch the JRB Ascender Hitch or Michoacan Hitch to replace the Prusik Hitch on the linemen rope? I subscribed to JRB Tree Climbing and Saddle Hunting on Face Book, how long does it take to be accepted? Thanks John
Thank you. As you know, this is a new knot, and so all of the information is new and evolving here as I publish it. For now, I would recommend that you become proficient at tying it, and soon I will upload some new content on how to use it in a lineman's belt or tether.
i use a munter on a rescue 8 because i’m 215 lbs and standard/typical rig doesn’t give me enough friction and i come down fast 😊
Is the Rescue 8 device droppable? Meaning, do you have to handle it loose to engage it? I have hunted in the cold to the point that my fingers didn't work and I just wanna avoid needing anything I can drop.
i would always put a prusik over my rappel device too in case you lose a hand on simple rappel rig
@DavidWilliams-wr4wb yes, we have to try to anticipate everything that could possibly happen and have a plan or mitigation.
@ i have used a variant like this for years when i am forced to use a carabiner to rappel and my rescue 8 is new and until the finish wears in a little it’s really slick so with my 215 lbs i need the friction, i’ve fallen with style many times because of lack of friction and for all the green newbies that can be harder on your ropes to rappel faster with less hitch on your device so to add friction at your device doesn’t always add damaging friction to your ropes , it’s actually quite opposite from some of my past 100’ dive bomb drops , long story short this is a great hitch if you are big and need friction
John, what diameter rappel rope have you found to work best for this method to be flexible and have good friction? 8mm or 9mm? Thanks!
For me at my body weight, the 8mm tactical ropes are perfect as a rappel rope. See my website for some choices and a discount.
jrbtreeclimbing.com/
@JRB Tree Climbing and Saddle Hunting I'm currently 204lb. Thank you for the reply, and heading to your site now!
this is the best vid on this thank you
Appreciate that!
I need to investigate this method of tree climbing and rappelling down. JRB hitch
Another question, I have noticed you are using Sterling Oplux with these knots, as well as Sterling accessory cord. Do you have experience with these hitches/ropes when the rope is wet? Have you used other ropes such as the Canyon C-IV? I am considering purchasing a longer rope and trying to narrow down my options. Thanks!
The exact properties of every wrap and cord combination can be different when wet. For example, I took Sterling Oplux and soaked it in a bucket of water overnight and then tested Michoacán friction hitches with 6mm cord... and they needed one more wrap to hold. And so my general recommendation is that: wet test your stuff as appropriate, add a wrap as appropriate, and of course, in actual climbing systems such as the JRB Climbing Method, we are never dependent on the Integrity or hold of any single friction hitch. Because we have built-in redundancy. And we can always get to ground safely without assistance.
@@jrbtc as always, very helpful, thanks!
John, what carabiner are you using in this video?
Petzl William Ball Carabiner. Triple action and not to be confused with the "William", which I do not own, but I believe is the same shape but a screw gate.
@JRB Tree Climbing and Saddle Hunting thank you. Keep the great content coming. I learn so much from watching your videos.
That's appreciated and motivating. I am doing it for the right reasons.
Awesome!
I've used munter (aka "Italian hitch") a lot for mountaineering to both belay and rappel (abseil) because it works on heavily ice crusted ropes when devices don't work. It is essential knowledge but it has high rope sheath wear and twists the ropes, more a problem on long rappels. You do a lot of rappelling with munter/Italian and the ropes don't handle as nicely after that. Great to know but not my go-to method
Fyi, have climbed and rappelled nearly every day on a rope with the munter and at the end of 4 years when I retired the rope based on manufacturer recommendations, the rope still looked new with noticeable wear. I had read that it is rough on the sheath but in practice, I learned otherwise. And you are correct that it can add spin in the rope during the rappel, however, that can be neutralized by varying the angle at which we feed slack in. However, typical rappels for a saddle hunter are only 25ft or 8m. A mountaineering application could be much longer and require precision in the technique. Thank you.
In air assault school they called that a love wrap because you were a thicc fella lol
@@chrismunsonmusic3432 i gotta remember that!
Re-watched. Thx😊
Definitely a skill we all can use. Cheers
Rappelling causes rope wear IF you go very fast because of the heat caused by the friction, otherwise it's not an issue.
Awesome
Thk u
You need to use the large pear carabiner. Unless you want to chance falling
That is what was used, demonstrated and stated in the video.
most rappel equipment is just extra. all you need is a rope and a carabiner . even harness can be made with rope
Putting all my descenders in a tote for storage. This is so simple yet safe. great way to rappel.
It's just one of those places where complexity doesn't buy us anything. Rappel is easy... gravity is with us... we just have to manage the friction wisely.
Probably too hard for nylon sheeth rope?
I have many ropes with different compositions. The biggest variables are the diameter and stiffness of the rope and the size of the carabiners. But I haven't found a combination that doesn't work.
Master class. Thank you Sir
Side note, it's terrifying how easy the hitch explodes 😂
Jrb hitch or maverick hitch? Regardless, they only get easy after we get our weight off of them. And of course, we must be careful.
what you call a super munter is a variant clove hitch, that’s a good bit of friction
I am familiar with the clove hitch and disagree: the super munter is not a variant of it. The Clove doesn't change direction: the turns go the same way around the host. Also, the clove hitch cinches, and that is not a feature we want in a friction brake.
@ i had to look at it a few times on rewind , i didn’t see it right away, at first glance it got me , i know if a clove would take a third turn it would lock up , i did have my glasses on when i watched it again ☺️
Running the line across the screw gate could unscrew it. Right or left handed shouldn't matter. Run the line against the spine to avoid a foreseeable accident.
Appreciate the input. 2 comments: 1. Unlike conventional use of the munter, i demonstrate feeding line in from above ensuring no contact with the gate; only the top of the carabiner. This also neutralizes spin. 2. Screw gates aren't considered appropriate for these applications by modern standards. Use a triple action, auto locking, pear shaped carabiner.
@@jrbtc maybe but to be honest I have bigger worries because even if it did unscrew you would be pushing it closed, sure something to watch out for but the problem can be managed. Autolocking/twist can be bad in muddy (caving) or icy (mountaineering) or sandy locations so *sometimes* screwgate is safer
Here's a SHORT video with the same idea!
ruclips.net/user/shortsKbaXlnQ14UQ?si=XQDLy78VYDmMIxMg
This demonstration, in my opinion, should be required introductory material for aboricultural training.
In the standard curriculum, Munter's hitch still gets hardly more than a passing mention to this day, at least where I am based (NZ).
Weight variation of the effective life support load in arboriculture is significant, even without including rescue scenario loads (double the weight). My height is just 1.8 metres and my build is relatively light.
I haven't weighed myself in the last few years, I would estimate it to be now between 70 and 80 kilograms (I consistently hovered around there since my third decade and I sense myself to be carrying about the same amount to this day). Add weight of harness, along with the changing requirements from one day to the next, maybe a rigging line and block or rings, sometimes a few kilograms' worth of rear handle chainsaw to attend to mid-size timber or maybe the more occasional ten kilograms' worth of MS661 for cutting some large timber at elevation when the circumstances necessitate it.
Before you know it, my effective total load can vary across the range of 15 kilograms, on the higher end potentially pushing (or should it be pulling) past 90 kilograms. Knowing how to scale the friction appropriately should be a fundamental aspect.
Thank you for sharing.
Thanks for your comment and expertise.
Wow!
Appreciate the support. But I am curious what inspired the Wow? Meaning that the use of the Munter itself is a fairly well known technique.
THANKS!!! , FOR DEMONSTRATIING THIS GREAT METHOD!!!🥨
Awesome explanation!!
Appreciate that. I had no idea this would be such a popular video. Coming down on a rope is simple: gravity is with us. Once we master that, it's pretty simple to add a Garda Hitch footloop and use the same system to go UP the tree.
Saved me $100 on a mad rock safe guard
Cool. It's more than just money though. If I thought a $200 device was safer, I would be telling you to buy it. But what if it got stuck or just didn't hold? How would we get out of that situation? I can't say because I can't see inside the device to make an educated decision. And our life hangs in the balance, literally. With a Munter, and a good hitch, you can see exactly what's going on and control it. Rappel is actually kinda easy: gravity does the work. We just control it. Cheers
Those snow geese need to hush.
Canada geese... but they do love that field!
Like u style
Appreciate that. It's just old school stuff with a new look. I test it out and am never in a rush to do a video. I do all I can to learn everything i can before I pass it along. Cheers
Dude your a wizard lol great work
Just saved me some money I'm scribing I'm here to learn and not fall to my premature dead to death I'm gonna be trained even if my little downsy head explodes from to much info I'm gonna be slower than a 180 year old arthritic Sleuth in a tree until I get my nogan wrapped around all the ways to do arborist work safely