WEIRDEST Toyota in the WORLD?? (Part 2 - Flashing CEL, Clicking Dash & Display, Wonky TEMP Gauge)
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- Опубликовано: 26 апр 2024
- Now that we have collected some good DATA on the SYMPTOMS of the Crazy Ghost living inside this 2004 Toyota Avalon, we have to look at Wiring Diagrams and see how in the world these issues could possibly be tied together:
-Stall/stumble on Cold Start
-Clicking Fuel Pump Relay
-Flashing/flickering Check Engine Light and Low Fuel Light
-Transmission Solenoid Code
-Flashing Info Display
-Wonky Temperature Gauge
Can we nail down the root cause with ONE scope measurement, and maybe fix it No Parts Required?
Or is the WEIRD Toyota hiding more tricks up its sleeve?
IVAN'S PICO WAVEFORMS:
drive.google.com/drive/folder...
Enjoy!
Ivan 
Авто/Мото
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Nothings better than coffee and pine hollow on a Saturday morning.
True true
Coffee and Eric O I'm saving the best for last, Eric O
My routine as well 😃
Same
Utter logic. Spock would have been proud of you. 😂
This is why the general public needs to wake up and realize that this is why technicians have to charge diagnostic time. As far as Ivan putting his hands on the car and fixing the actual problem, that took a very short period of time. It's everything else beforehand that needs to be accounted for as well.
@@jdtractorman7445 That's right. Ivan may have bumped that loose earth bolt & wires unknowingly during the repair, while he was working on some other connector, which temporarily connected the wires back to earth. This would mislead him to think the connector he was working on was the problem. A minute, an hour or a month later some random bump or shake of the would dislodge the earth wires again, & the nightmare on Avalon Street returns!😮
@@nevillegoddard4966 17:00 Yep!
Specialty electrical shops that don't check grounds are not competent. Most of the electrical problems I have dealth with for 52 years have been neglected grounds.
I have dealt with auto electrical people who did not understand how simple electrical circuits are supposed to function...sigh.
@@mrblonde2013 It's not just electrical! A lot of todays techs simply slap on whatever part the computer tells them to, and are pretty much incapable of engaging in an actual diagnostic thought process, costing the customer in both wasted time and money (in unneeded parts).
@@tadawsonX yup, and there are a multitude of reasons for that. Too many to get in here. Interestingly, thinking about this case, there are very few to none seminars available that explain and teach the diagnostic process. Definitely not in my neck of the woods.
This is why whenever I buy an new/used car the first thing I do is locate every ground connection I can get access to. Remove the connections, clean the wires, posts etc. Lube it nicely with N-OX-ID and reinstall. It will save you a ton of headaches down the road!
Great diagnosis. If it were at the Yoda stealership that I worked at, it would have a new relay, ECM and temp sensor. And still not repaired…oh, and an alternator.
And a fuelpump and a set of sparkplugs and coils (because EVERY car with an issue needs plugs and coils😂😂😂) and a transmission overhaul and after that it would be a "unfixable" vehicle.
I'd be thinking ECM and Cluster to start and then wiring harness....just to be sure...LOL
You forgot all the wallet flushes too!!!
@@mrblonde2013ironically replacing the spark plugs would have fixed the problem since that involves removing the intake plenum 😂
There was this old ship stuck at harbor and nobody could fix the engine. They found the old master tech and hired him to come and take a look. He diagnosed and gave them a $25 K estimate. The ship owner agreed, and the old tech took his tiny hammer and tapped the engine and it sprang to life, The customer got his bill which read $5K for diagnostics $20K for knowing where to tap it at. You boggle the mind Ivan, you have mad skills my friend!
The same story is told of Henry Ford. Ford had an issue with the production line and enlisted the help of Thomas Edition. Edition repaired the issue, sent Ford an invoice. Ford took issue with the bill for just a little tinkering. Edition responded breaking down the costs, X for tinkering and X for knowing where to tinker. Thanks, the old school guy
I know where to “tap” my girlfriend to spring life into her at night 🍆
@@danoakes8680Edison
Reminds me of the story where a man brings his car to a shop to fix a problem. He returns later and the mechanic says "that will be $100". The car owner asks what the problem was and the mechanic says the he "needed to replace a bolt that had fallen out". The owner asks sarcastically "$ 100 for a bolt ?"
The mechanic replies, "No, $1.00 for the bolt and $99 for knowing where to put the bolt".
Ivan's mostly used tool the notepad aka Ivan's flowchart also much appreciated for not being behind a paywall 😎👍
Ivan, I thought 2023 videos were top notch but this year 2024 is of another level. Can't wait for Part 3 to find what the so-called 30 year technician thought. You are without a doubt amazing in your field. Dave in Guernsey, Channel Islands.
Hey Dave glad you are enjoying the case study mysteries! Yes this Toyota has several problems hiding under the hood 😉
Anytime you have multiple electrical symptoms look at grounds first. A prior repair which solved the problem for a period of days involved a ground. What I see is automotive electrical systems getting more complex and mechanics/"technicians" get overwhelmed and miss the basics.
While I'm all for the diagnostician aspect of your work Ivan I think using this approach for a training example is just furthering that instant trigger that overwhelms mechanics. The basics don't involve a lab scope or a research thesis. A list of what items are affected, a look through the wiring diagrams, a recognition of the symptoms and you'll easily end up in the same place.
This car displayed symptoms very reminiscent of some of the first automotive electrical troubleshooting I ever did as a 14 or 15 year old, trailer lighting faults. Hit the brakes an everything except one marker goes out, brake lights only work with parking lights, or in conjunction with turn signals, symptoms changing with every turn and every pothole, etc. In 1990 these systems were the epitome of basic, there was no need to look any farther forward than the 4 flat. This is a lesson that most mechanics have learned but fail to apply in situations like this. Eric O did a video a year or so ago on a Chevy truck that was at a dealership with multiple inoperative modules and they ordered all of the modules then charged a restocking fee because the customer chose not to fire a $5,000 parts cannon, Eric O quickly found a corroded in half main ground strap.
Moral of the story is, just because the vehicle has a complex electrical system doesn't mean the problem has to have a complex diagnosis.
There are plenty of other channels with people wiggling wires. This channel is for those who want see lab scopes and research theses.
No dealership
No repair shop
No tech is ever going to go this in-depth for a car this old that’s why they just replace parts until the problem is solved because no dealership is going to let a tech get paid to sit in a room with a notebook trying to CSI this problem. Ivan is one in a million 7:36
It's ironic that no amount of parts cannon would have fixed this car...CRAZY!
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnosticsDisagree, replacing the intake manifold would have fixed it! LOL
Luckily when they replace the wire harness the problem may get fixed. LOL
Great find without touching anything on the car in your diagnostics. When you know proper diagnostic techniques, it's incredible what you can decipher.
On another note, when you stated the customer had it at another shop and they tightened a ground and it disappeared for a day, that was the first clue of where this would end.
Also, in my experience, a problem like this affecting multiple systems in crazy ways is typically going to be a ground issue. I had a customer complain that his windshield wipers would turn on if he engaged his running lights on his boat. There were a couple of other odd things that happened but as well.
After testing and checking, I found the main ground wire for the replay box was completely broken off. you might wonder how anything would function. The reason why it still did but all crazy was that the electrical current was dissipated by all the connected grounds at the electric panel, which confused the system and it would turn on random things like the wipers when you wanted the lights.
Grounds area very tricky thing but when strange things happen for no logical reason, you can bet there will be a faulty ground somewhere in the system.
im surprised that a bad ground didnt drain the battery...ive heard of that happening before
@@darrenw2803 Not sure how a bad ground would drain a battery. You need both positive and negative connected to complete a circuit and thus drain the battery. If the ground isn't connected, no complete circuit, no drain.
Incredible ! But yeah, bad grounds can be responsible for so many seemingly crazy issues. Data driven diagnosis for the WIN. Well done Ivan, fantastic job as always M8 !
This should have been a quick and easy repair for each and every shop that had it. Yes bad grounds cause seemingly crazy issues, that's why when a vehicle presents with seemingly crazy electrical issues a ground problem should immediately be suspected. The clicking relay is KEY! The only cause is a loss of connectivity. What's that mean? Well it's either losing and gaining power or ground. Spread over multiple circuits makes it fairly obvious that it isn't a power feed issue, I could care less if it's a"control" issue, because certainly the fault is CAUSING a lack of electrical control, which only leaves the obvious, a poor ground. Data driven diagnostics in this case overcomplicates the job. Say you're pulling a trailer and notice the lighting is going crazy, do you start the diagnosis at the brake light switch, turn signal switch, parking light switch, or go straight to the trailer hitch and solve the obvious ground issue?
Experience for the win always, data driven research and diagnosis is great if one lacks that experience.
Back in the 80's, had a Ford Aerostar that kept burning up the brushes in the blower motor. Electrically, it kept leading me to the ignition switch, which I wrote off as not possible as there were no other problems. After the third time I decided to pull the ignition switch and found the crimp loose, which was causing an intermittent resistive connection. Replaced defective switch and blower motor and it lived happily ever after until the recall notice came for defective ignition switches, which led to a court battle for complete reimbursement.
19:00 Every "scope capture" you take my man is the BEST
Picoscope stock price must be up, since ivan started showcasing its value😊
@@pootthatbak2578 I got the DHO804.. much cheaper than a pico
Much less than the pico.. rigolDHO804
Much less than the pico is: D H O 804
I guess there is no "bad" scope capture... There is always valuable information in every waveform!
It’s a awesome feeling when you positively see and find the problem
The very rare big difference is Ivan cares and gives the time (being self employed) to care about his customers and their vehicles, most just look for the $$££ and stealerships must have targets to hit forced on them from above...
Yep, PHAD is separated from typical wrench turners with the simple use of logic. I like your restraint from going directly to the suspected problem and proving the issue through measurements. Your dad has got to be proud of you!
That restraint had to be learned over several years the hard way 😅
I actually thought about that exact ground location within 5 minutes of getting in the car...
Next step would be to find the guy that forgot to tighten that ground bold. Maybe you can "capture" that guy on your scope too 😂 Excellent diagnosis as usual 👏👍 This approach takes patience not to rush to conclusions and it pays off! I learn a lot from you. Thank you.
Part three tomorrow? Some people would have spent five times what it should have cost to repair and then gave up and sold the car. Great job and content.
Great diag man! I'll say what most people won't. Very few would have found the root problem. It's easy to watch someone this talented and knowledgeable figure it out. But when you have to figure it out yourself it's a little more difficult haha.
A master at work. I wish I had 1/4 of Ivan’s ability
Very glad you got that beautiful old Toyota repaired
I did happen to notice on that wiring diagram that the relay that was at the driver's kick panel that you removed and replaced was included in the path to the instrument display, etc. Obviously, the customer can watch this video and see the amount of time you spent on diagnosing this issue and I know you got paid for it. You did a VERY analytical diagnosis. More than 1/2 the time you seemingly diagnose a bad ground. I've been watching you long enough to know when you would move that gear selector it apparently was supplying a sufficient ground to stop the clicking. I'm sure you've been tempted to claim defective parts and have resisted that temptation. I don't know whose worse about this ground thing; you or Eric. GREAT VIDEO!
Ugh…was hoping for conclusion ..great job Ivan! I don’t recall hearing that hissing before..that’s such a nice car for being 20 years old, rotted rubber hoses doesn’t surprise me..
Nice job Ivan! That was neat to see you figure out the problem just by studying the wire diagrams and then confirming with the scope. That problem would have led a lot of technicians down multiple rabbit holes. I sensed an adrenaline rush when you turned on the ignition and watched the scope.
With all the varied issues, a bad ground was the most logical explanation from the start without a scope. Sometimes overthinking will kill me…….
Yes that was my gut feeling too, 1 minute in! But pinpointing the EXACT bad ground location without touching the car was quite satisfying 😊
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics A bad ground indeed but WHERE ? Ha ha ha
Nice work Ivan . The going joke at my shop is " hey brakes are bad " and every guy in the shop will say " check the grounds " lol. That's always my first answer when they ask me a question.
When ever i notice Weird symptoms on a vehicle, yeh, bad Grounds and faulty Alternator always comes to my mind................
PHAD __TO the Win😊
Imagine being in a shop..one guy is blasting a radio 2 bays over. Some guy is hammering on a stuck bearing and hub, the phone rings every 3 minutes, people are coming and going..seems almost impossible to to take the time to concentrate on an alldata schematic in most busy repair shops. Hence..Individual " concierge" troubleshooters have a role in our society..ivan has found a good niche'
The nerd in me is enjoying going back to part 1 and reading in Comments who guessed a ground issue. PS - Would live to know how many miles are on this gem of a car.
That was fun PH! Can't wait to hear what the 30yr master tech recommended. I'll never forget that video last year of the Mercedes and the senior master techs diag was it needed a $20,000 harness 😂
Logic and persistence pays off. Gotta love it! Peace
Definitely the greatest scope capture of all time. You could see it changing in time with the relay buzzing and the display flashing.
I'd be strongly tempted to preemptively replace that relay, or at least the customer might want to keep an OEM spare in the glovebox to avoid being stranded. Buzzing on and off rapidly like that with a load connected is hard on the contacts.
Relays are guaranteed for > 100k switching cycles under full load, and they easily survive that. I was once working on Mercedes modules, because when we developed the module I wanted to make sure the relays don't fail prematurely, so I tested it. When I cut open the housing it looked pretty black inside, but the relay itself worked just fine. Even though the contacts were worn from the current the resistance was still low.
One of my worst, the ferry radio telephone would drop off. Numerous trips, never failed. Finally eliminated ferry power.....no problems. They had rewired the control console and the terminal strip screw was not tightened, supplying power to the radio telephone.
Been waiting for this video finally!
Wow. Got to admit i didnt see that coming. I really thought the problem would be behind the screen somewhere.
Hi Ivan,
Excellent Sherlock Holmes moment. 🙂 I hope that vacuum line will be an easy repair and not lead to other problems.
This is the coolest diag ever, Ivan ;-)
First firing a shotgun with hail at the problem, and hitting the alternator. After this stepping on the brake and doing an excellent diagnosis that pinpoints the problem. When you mentioned the CEL, It screamed ground problem because these are usually fed by different power feeds on these older vehicles.
"You have to understand the theory of operations when things get difficult" is one of my all time favorite quotes!
vow excellent job, only thing I dont understand is why idle air control worked just fine
great job, pinpointing with logic and proof. when I suspect its a bad ground, some times a brute force approach -I inspect, clean, tighten as many as I can find via diagrams and visual
Loose connections vibrate with rpm, too, not just the alternator. The only thing I would have done differently was to take apart that ground and clean it up. Being loose, everything has had time to start oxidizing. I always carry a stainless steel brush and a small can of deoxit, among other things, in a small kit in my vehicle.
Ivan is my favorite “no parts required” mechanic.
One thing that sets you apart is a need to know exactly what the problem is - instead of just making the ptoblem go away snd being satisfied with that. Top notch!
My jaw ACTUALLY dropped when I saw the cyclic ground voltage on the picoscope! That was awesome!!
Amazing how crazy symptoms one loose ground can cause. Had once almost rusted through ground wire between transmission and body and it just caused white noise to radio, and suspectidly blew two ignition modules., otherwise the car seemed to work normally. Well digital clock in the dash died around same time, so perhaps that poor ground killed that too. Clock didn't come back to life even after the ground was fixed.
I believe Eric o would have found the loose wire quicker but hey there is only one Eric O. Good work Ivan compared to the so called electrical specialists, you are a genius. I am going to go out with a few wrenches and make sure everything is tight, maybe save myself a lot of headaches.
nah same time. He is a 3 hour drive farther. LOL
Ivan for president!!! I have sooo much respect for you man...
"WOW" Ivan right out of the shoot....Nice job.....
Love this guy and the honesty that goes with it makes watching him so nice. CT has Crooked's for techs.
You take the weekend off with the wife.
That was quite the walk thru ...
Your the most dedicated I know of. Two thumbs up.
Excellent persistence Ivan. Follow the common thread.
I enjoy the fact that your diagnosis makes you happy. Its great when your sequence of troubleshooting has a pay day.
Now you can put that on an invoice!
Ivan is the king of wiring diagnosis!
Great diagnosis again Ivan. Very good process of proving your theory before repairing the problem and being sure that it was repaired. But.....(I'm sorry) early on you noted that shifting from park, drive, reverse changed the symptoms, I would have installed a temporary block to battery ground and rechecked concern. That being said, I completely understand and agree with your diagnosis and repair. You can confidently return the car to the customer knowing that it is repaired.
Thank you for the video!
That's a very good example showing the importance of applying a consistent diagnostic strategy and working out a case specific "game plan". ❤
How many note pads you use up per year😅?
OMG. Wow. Picking my jaw up. Awesome work.
"Powers and grounds, powers and grounds, I gotta get me some powers and grounds! (In the style of "Kibbles and Bits") I'm not sure I can wait for part 3!
You absolutely blow me away will you skills! Another fantastic video!
Yes, that was fascinating. Well done Ivan, went right to the source. Just like a hound dog on a trail. That ground serving multiple functions, was key to the problem.
I suspected a power or ground issue at or near the BCM. But logic from the wire diagrams told us that the ground we needed to chase was not in the cabin. Absolutely an amazing find Ivan! Got to love the simple fixes. Oh wait.... Where is that bonus footage that you started talking about? I wanted to see that.
Nice detective work Ivan! The cliffhanger continues.
Ivan I love your logical and methodical diagnostic and repair techniques. It's something my dad and I practiced for years in his shops and it's nice to know that others such as yourself are out there doing it the same way with the same success. Cheers!
After watching a lot of you videos, the first thing I thought about was a bad ground😅.
Fun to see I had it right.
Just got up . Over sleeping again .6:05 am here in Vegas .
I called a bad ground in the first video based solely off symptoms, although I said on the fuse box or relay. Well done Ivan.
Root cause analysis at its finest..great stuff. Perform discovery, create a plan, follow the plan and divide the problem into actionable paramters.
Great job as usual bro!
I glad to see I am not the only one that gets excited when your logic deduction and scope capture solves a problem. NICE Job my friend. BTW Hey Amanda 1 week until the Kentucky Derby!
It should be mandatory for every mechanic to watch your videos at least 5 hours a week after watching every video start over until they have skills as a real mechanic. I have been working on my own autos for over 60 years I wish I was younger so I could be more in touch with today's technology. I never miss your videos like always great thinking.
Thank you for your support Bill! 🙂
I can't believe that the other shops could not fix the problem It was obvious like you said it was going to be a ground or power issue from the start
Great case study man! It reminds me to one of scanner danner's early case about a bad ground on a Toyota's ECM
You are a freaking genius Ivan.
Rhetorical question?
@steveguinn9740 don't know what you mean. But then again, I'm numb nuts.
Too early for my eyes to focus. I read "are you a genius Ivan". 😊
Very impressive, and straight to the problem at the end. Will I ever have to do a case study on my car? After all it's a 1999 Toyota Camry ;-)
No problems so far...
Enjoyed this with cup of coffee ☕️
I really enjoy this case study. Thanks Mr. Ivan. More informative case study to upload.
Wow!!! That was crazy! Awesome Diag! 👍👍
Excellent work, Ivan. I had a strong suspicion that it was a bad grond. The only problem would be isolating it. Your technique was fantastic!
Whoever did the last spark plug or valve cover gasket job is to blame for that one...
Great bit of work.
At 7:00 you identify the "backlight circuit" as the MDU screen control.
The ECU would not be controlling the screen, the MDU would.
The "backlight circuit" would be the REVERSE LIGHT circuit.
Nope…the back light circuit is indeed for the MDU. When the parking lights or headlights are on, there is an additional back light for that display panel that is illuminated. Has nothing to do with the reverse lights…a completely separate system.
Great work Ivan, a thorough diagnosis, and not shooting from he parts canon like others….But now you keep us hanging for the conclusion !
That was amazing Ivan - very well done. I hope the customer lets the prior garages know about the fix, especially the main dealer. Amazing work.
Brilliant detective work. The data does not lie. Well done.
I have said it once, and I'll repeat it. Ivan, You actually troubleshoot the problem. Other mechanics only look at the possibilities and use their part store to prove victory. You find and fix the cause oof the failure.
Amazing job!!
You’re incredible.
Ivan, you are a total Guru. I'm sitting here thinking from the first episode "Bad ground." (Erik O taught me that). You showed the process from "I think" to "I know, for sure."
Ivan you are amazing. Love your diagnosis
Awesome video Ivan and great diagnosis. Once again you have shown that patience and the basic skills can move mountains.
Keith would be proud of you on this one and I loved that money shot moment with the scope seeing that 2 volt reading.....Priceless!!!!!
I really thought it was going to be over-charging at first..
Having access to service data is so crucial. I can see why they try to charge two hundred per month for their tools.
Good job as always Mr Ivan Alexander , your videos are amazing every video that you posted I’m trill about cuz I know I’m going to learn something.
Your cases are fenómeno cuz they are very rare .
Keep pounding
These are some of my favorite diags, spending sometimes hours in my "office" (work vehicle, on site, parked next to the customer vehicle), mousing through page after page of data to learn the vehicle's thought process, sometimes even getting harassed by the shop manager(s) about why I'm "not working on the vehicle," only to emerge hours later, poke something with a stick, and fix the car. So much fun! :D
Yup :)
Test, don't guess. Ivan is like the 5th ghost buster.
Great job Ivan.👍👍🇺🇸
Excellent detective work, work smart not hard.
Great video and case study. It does get more interesting when you have no wiring diagram or Alldata to find an intermittent problem though. Ask me how I know? 🤣🤣
I'm looking forward to a 1 month access for my Buick so I can check it out. Lots of little things to fix.
good logic and thinking , its always rewarding doing the research and planning to find the problem , i wish we had all data in New zealand but i have to make do with what i can as JDM car wiring diagrams are not easy to come by , we get a lot of import JDM cars here , takes me a while to find wire diagrams , very time consuming but i always get there , great video
Many ppl do not understand the “scientific method” re troubleshooting and failure analysis.
Congratulations!
Wow, amazing. Explains why the car was surging too! Idle air control ground was affected.
I am in awe, Ivan. I have been working on cars for 30 years and this one would have taken my lunch. Thinking about your approach, yours is seriously efficient and to the point. As i get older, i am more inclined to study wiring diagrams and follow the data, (much to the displeasure of my employer, they just want to hang a part and ship it, fixed or not😮)and utilize non invasive methods..thank you for another valuable lesson.
Awesome video. Great job.