Nice car! This is literally the stuff of my nightmares....like really, I'm driving my Avalon, and lights start flashing, I see warnings I've never seen before, and it starts falling on its face. Then I wake up and go to the garage to find the car sitting there peacefully.
Since you can see fuel pump relay glitching my next step would be to install a relay breakout between fuel pump relay and fuse box. Then monitor the power & ground on the control portion of relay with oscilloscope and see if its the power or ground dropping out. Really enjoy seeing how you work through these problems and it helps me in my work as heavy truck mechanic.
I paused the video at 13:01 and all I can say is this is very similar to an issue Eric O. had on a 2019 Tahoe/Yukon that had a bad ground on the frame that had been corroded by salt. Apparently, you are providing a ground by changing positions with the transmission switchgear, etc. Seems like Steven King wrote a book about a car like this, but it was a 1958 Plymouth. Just goes to show you all cars have issues, even the ones that have a "T" on the front. Ivan, you are just facinated with the fact this car is behaving badly. I don't think I have seen you this excited in a long time. GREAT VIDEO!
Not an uncommon problem... I've heard service bulletins to check the body ground on older Ford trucks because the transmission ends up being the ground, this in turn eats away bearings when you drive and you keep getting repeat transmission failure.
Only a minute or two in, and i can say I have already seem something similar. There is probably a ground out that is re-routing power as a result through the 4 way flasher module, which is why it is flashing.
I would start by turning as many electrical accessories on as possible and see if all systems are affected. For example if the running lights flicker, the blower motor speed fluctuates, or the ac compressor cuts on and off you know it's something that affects the whole car, not just certain systems. That can help save a lot of time when determining what to look for.
Ivan back in the 80s. Volvo had a similar problem with them Temp and Fuel gauges. In Volvo's case it was a voltage stabiliser fitted onto the rear of the dash panel. Replace it and it was cured. Only saying.
Hey Ivan, we had a 2002 Aussie Ford in the workshop at one time. The Instrument cluster would go nuts with things flashing on & off, the temp gauge with a mind of it's own, tacho bouncing etc, very similar to what you have there. The problem only existed with the engine running, the car ran great with no apparent issues except a stall at idle sometimes. The problem turned out to be inductive spikes from the ignition coil pack, we changed the coil pack & everything was perfect once again. It did take some head scratching to work it out. This may not be related but it reminded me of this problem Ford.
The temp gage lost its damping for some reason- it is now showing ACTUAL coolant temperature which does vary as you go through different engine power ranges. NOrmally the system keeps this steady as long as within a given "normal" range.
That was a similar deal as the story that I was telling you about a while back when I diagnosed & repaired my great uncles stepdaughters Australian built 1997 Ford EL Falcon Futura which was powered by Ford Australias "Thriftpower" 4 litre inline six cylinder engine. It was intermittently doing exactly the same thing & the engine was stalling back in 2022,it eventually needed to be towed to where I can fix it which was at my dads house because every time she would place it into drive then the engine would stall out. I found out the problem was under the steering column which was where the main ignition feed to the engines ECU & ignition system as well as the rest of the cars electrics was connected to a crappy aftermarket engine immobilizer which was actually what was causing that "clickety click" sound & flashing lights on the dash as well as a stalled out engine. The first owner did a bit of a botched installation by running the main ignition switch feed directly through the immobilizer unit instead of a relay switched by the module which was 25 years old & the electrical connectors which were used in house wiring they used to join the wires. I just cut the main yellow/red ignition wires then added an extension piece to extend the length of the wire then I soldered both ends together as how Ford originally wired it up at the Broadmeadows factory in Victoria. So I totally bypassed the aftermarket engine immobilizer/car alarm then the car drove flawlessly, she has been driving the car for the last 2 years without any problems. So in the Avalon,if there's no additional modules such as the engine immobilizer then it's likely going to be the ECU which is faulty,I know that in my 2002 model Holden VY SS Commodore I had a faulty ABS module cause the air conditioning system not to work or cut out as well as making the instrument cluster go haywire. So it was messing around with the body control module,in the Holden Commodores that faulty ABS module was also known to cause other problems like causing the alternator to overcharge the battery, etc !
I'd start by measuring voltage between the engine block and battery ground. A working alternator will stress that connection. Engine movement when going in/out of gear will mechanically test that connection.
I was thinking that too but it just seems too constant and reproduceable, any issue with a ground like that I have ever seen is generally far more intermittent. Having said that, I would have no idea where to look next. The wiring diagram would probably be a good start, see what controls that relay and what else it is connected to.
Exactly what you said at the end of the video is what I would do next. Figure out what's connected between the relay clicking and the screen. Of that the check engine light went out for a bit. But none the less time to sit down n do ur research.
Hi Ivan, love your work. My theory is this: You have a voltage regulation problem of some sort at or after the alternator. The car doesn’t like anything over 12 volts, which is what should be regulated to the 12v components such as the dash. Seems like that relay is not getting regulated voltage of 12 volts between it and the alternator. Noticed no clicking happens when you have the car running just off 12 volts battery signal. This is the route I would take. Check the voltage regulator on the alternator, and then trace voltage from that point in between the wiring where it leads into that relay. It could be the alternator regulator is bad, the relay is bad, or some of the wiring in between is causing the voltage not to regulate down to 12 volts so the system is happy like it’s supposed to.
Guess it's time to pull a wiring diagram and see what's in common with that relay. I'm suspicious of the control side. Is it a power or ground issue that is in question or maybe a module. Can't wait for the next Video! Thanks for taking the time to post this one!
IVAN, YOU ARE THE MOST OBSERVANT DIAGNOSTICS TECHNICIAN I EVER SEEN IN THE BUSINESS. I LOVE THE WAY YOU ACCUMALTE YOUR FACTS AND PUT THEM IN AN APPROCH BASED ON FACTS AND WIRINGS DIAGRAMS. YOU MUST HAVE AN EXTRA SENSES; GOOD FOR YOU. THATS WHY THEY CONTACT YOU AND SEEK YOUR HELP. YOU ARE AMAZING WITH YOUR ENGINEERING BACKROUND AND DESIGN. THAK YOU IVAN.
It did sort of look nasty. And the position of it with salt-laden wet boots knocking it. Where is the cover for it? The carpet gets salty wet, and right underneath that relay. Change to the relay. Cheap even for Toyota's inflated prices.
@@disgruntledcanuck visible green . No idea where it woll lead. Could be something behind that relay or fuse box has more crusty green...Just a clue right now. I remember how a relay sounds when my battery cables got loose or the battery is low...click, click ,click click... Same sound, different solenoid...something to investigate .
This car reminds me of a GM vehicle that I had many years ago. All lights flashed when moving the gearshift lever and at various speeds. The only ground was through the gearshift cable and/or speedo cable. Good body ground, bad engine ground, replaced the bad negative battery cable, the shift cable and the Speedo cable as they were cooked from the current.
Very cool, i love the fact that you are excited by unusual problem cars. Eric and Bernie display a similar attitude. Its something i try to emulate when i am faced with a broken car, it puts you in the right frame of mind. Interestingly, looking at the diagrams, that looked to be the C/open relay you pulled. So the next logical step would be studying a wiring diagram to see whats connected to that relay. I am waiting impatiently for part 2. Thanks Ivan.
Eric O did a similar video a couple years ago on a Chevy truck where the dashboard went ballistic. Solution: He installed a separate ground wire from engine block to chassis. My 04 Blazer did the same thing and the ground wire also fixed my run-away dashboard lights. Thanks Eric!
I bought a low mileage Corolla with an automatic transmission once that acted crazy. It turned out to be the speedometer. I pulled out the cluster and replaced only the speedometer with a junk yard replacement and it drove like a new car. Toyotas are a different breed.
Wiring diagram will be interesting to see what kind of power/ ground distribution this vehicle has, and what exactly powers up those relays. Can't say what my next step would be until I see a wiring diagram. Those older Toyotas can be very complex. Great job gathering evidence so far 👍. Looking forward to part 2.
Have a 07 Buick Allure, did almost same thing, 2 yrs ago. Pulled the ECM (has a casing ground). Aluminum body was corroded. Wire brushed it and all dash/radio/keyless start issues vanished.
It's funny that many of us give you what to look for but since it's already found ,but this one is easy to diagnose because it's not intermitent . wiring diag scan, amps loads circuits check basic stuff for me.
In the movie The Sting I believe it was Pau Newman's character who stated thatthe perfect con was the one in which the target never knew that they had been swindled. Ivan, I congratulate you for running the perfect con. The smile on your face when you encounter a diagnostic dilemma clearly suggests that folks are paying you to do something that provides you with a degree of joy sufficient to warrant you paying them for the entertainment value you get while solving these problems.
Check the panel that the fuel pump plugs into. He stated the problem got worse when it rained. Plugged drain in the cowel may have water leaking into that area and its corroded.
“This is the COOLEST car ever!” Ivan’s version of discovering cheats in a video game. 🤣🤣🤣 I would scope the power and grounds at the instrument panel and that relay and go from there. This should be fun!!
Man this seems all too familiar with a 2010 Honda crv with a bad ignition coil striking the computer randomly. Problem only occurred while running with cel flicker and random stall and it drove perfect with no misfires before changing the coil. I was getting a pcm internal fault code and etc relay control code. PCM and throttle body was replaced and it ended up needing #4 ignition coil. At least I know now the car has good powers and grounds to the pcm and the complete etc relay control circuit! Your symptoms are a bit different because the relay going crazy for me was the etc relay (throttle body) Cool car Ivan!
Electronics can do very weird things when components interact...the symptoms on this Toyota were quite entertaining...flashing, buzzing, but drove so smoothly!!
I would check the wiring going to the fuel pump for signs of damage or corrosion. I'm sure the car has a in-tank fuel pump but that doesn't mean the connection isn't damaged somewhere. The pump is shorting to the unibody. Possibly.
Ivan, With the battery charger, you probably should be doing two tests: 1st with the charger grounded to the battery as you already have done, but secondly, ground the charger to the Engine block instead, so as to load the block ground the same way the Alternator does when producing power and see if you get any different behavior.
I have been driving Toyotas since 1990 and never had a problem. Not so much as a flat tire. WTH? It is a good thing that Ivan has never been defeated. LOL
Crazy. Sweet problem! I guess I would do some swap Tronics with the relay and check the grounds at the ECU make sure they can carry current. Since the clicking sounds like a turn signal and since there is a reported rain issue I would wanna explore a weird backfeed problem.
On my Hyndai Getz car, all the lights started flashing and clicking, I checked the masses between the body and the engine. I put a thicker new wire between the body and the engine, I took off the instrument panel and cleaned all the connectors. Also the ECU connectors. The gauge readings all moved to the end and zero alternately. letter errors. I cleaned all the test legs, relay legs and sockets. This both in the engine room and in the cabin. Apart from that, everything is as it should be. Conclusion, from time to time, all electrical connections on the car need to be mechanically and chemically cleaned.
Depends of where you live, what kind of atmosphere. Do you live close to the beach, or in a high humidity area? This is the first Hyundai Getz that is have heard to have this problem.
Here's my opinions... when it was stalling out you could hear the whine from the alternator when it was hooked back up. when you hear that familliar whine of the alternagtor in my experience its something drawling way to much current/amperage possibly a direct short to ground , but a dead battery can do this too if it wants more juice the alternator can provide. This usually makes the belt squeek or if its a near dead or dead short to ground it'll stall the engine it might not kill the battery but its enough strain on the electrical system to stall the engine after you hear the overloaded alternator start whinning . Im saying these seneros because vehicle electrical systems operates on DC current and don't like it if any form of AC current which will make things act wonky in so many differnt ways. Motors and light bulbs wont care about the AC on the system. Also .. An alternator turns the DC battery voltage into AC current as the engine spins the alternator and its Stepped up to anywhere from low voltage AC to lets say 120volts AC for example like residential electrical service But also its in a 3 phase star/delta configuration. There's a Diode package inside the alternator that takes the 3phase power and rectifies it back to DC its still not at battery voltage yet. and the rectifier also takes the 3 phase power and turns it into single phase power. at This point the power is not a clean DC power its almost clean its a pulsating DC current. AS the Battery can and will Filter the pulsating DC into a Clean useable DC current. as it has capacitive properties to it all that is needed to stop the pulsating DC and make clean DC is 1 or many capacitors that will smooth and filter DC output of the diode rectifier . Then sends it to the voltage regulator and is regulated down to 12 volts to 14 volts of semi useable DC. the regulator does add some filtering of the pulsed DC. The unclean DC doesnt mess with Things like if there is AC on the system. AC is an NO NO on DC circuits and devices. unless its powering a light bulb . Like Ivan said You'll need a OSCOPE to see the waveform on the system . AC will show up as noise and an actual sine wave depending on the severity of AC present. A clean DC signal will look like a FLAT line on the scope with a frequency of 100HZ. Pulsed DC will look like morse code with long and short dashes that alternate high and low. A Digital volt meter can show AC on DC systems but it can only show the voltage of the AC . You have to put the meter on AC to read AC on DC powerd circuits.
At a guess, there was a big clue in the email. Maybe a red herring but cudtomer said a garage had cleaned the earth and it went away for a day. Could that be a coincidence ? Certainly acts like a bad earth, now I've had a guess can't wait to see the outcome.
This is a really good case study. I'm not sure where to start looking just yet. But my first impression is that we may have a poor power delivery or ground issue to the BCM. Let's see what ALLDATA has for us.
Cadence is key here, Fuel pump surge?, damper diode on relays? Harmonics? Capacitors? Coils? can all create havoc, remember the engine noise thru the radio back in the day and resistor sparkplugs? Yep fun little puzzle you got here, Curious to see what "ripple" is on the line if any? and pump amp draw? Looking forward for the fix. I had a diode glitching out a Parker drive one time and that took me a day to find it. lol Have fun it Ivan, It's magic.lol
I suspect a compromised main body ground. The thick ground cable from the engine block to the battery is likely fine since the engine cranks normally. The fuel pump and other items ground through the body of the car, and by removing loads, the bad ground may be able to pass just enough current to work. I figure the problem will be located at the body ground wire where it attaches to the negative battery terminal.
love seeing you get excited over cars showing off SUPER weird behaviors but holy shit thats something that would make me leave the battery disconnected until its at the shop god knows what that electrical ghost would turn on.
Before we found OUR Gen2 Avalon in good shape, we had a 1994 VW Golf in which a normal-behaving electrical system happened about 1% of running time. Then came a 2000 Taurus that developed intermittent no-start due to corrosion on the mega-fuse combined with an internal circuit open in the fuel pump driver module. No problems in the now 22 year old Avalon, but then, its an XL, not the upscale XLS in this video, which has a load more electronic bells and whistles.
I believe we have seen a couple of hints' The car doesn't like wet/damp conditions. Based on it's condition it is likely kept in a garage in WV, so it is usually dry on first start. At Pine Hollow it was outside, on the grass and early morning so likely much more damp than normal. This may have contributed to the initial start/stall condition. The owner also reported symptoms in wet conditions. The data we have so far also implicates the fuel pump circuit. Could be power on the fuel pump circuit, but more likely a ground for the fuel pump circuit. The battery charger test seems to have ruled out alternator ripple, but checking for ripple with the Pico will completely rule out alternator problems.
Wiring diagram and see what controls that relay, and if it shares a power, say off a maxi fuse, with anything else. Same thing with the gnd. Does it share a common gnd. I'd have to start there. I think the trans code and coolant temp if true, may be separate issues. Who knows!?
Interesting one again :D My guess is something wrong with the wiring for fuel pump / fuel gauge, or ground related to them. That relay may be faulty too after all that crazy clicking :D
Tricky one. On the Toyota really weird flaky stuff it has lead me back to the corroded capacitors in the PCM. Just wondering if you have the same issue. Thanks Ivan!
I knew someone who had a car that looked exactly like this one. It had electrical problems immediately after purchase and went back to the dealer many times, never to be repaired. I think they put a piece of tape over the blinking light and drove it until replacing the car years later. I'm curious about the voltage and ripple on the 5V supply coming out of the computer - but with the fuel pump being known to be the source of clicking, I'd look for a resistance in the circuit sending power to the fuel pump relay. I'm thinking that when the relay contact closes and the fuel pump draws current, the voltage to the relay contact is dropping. This much I do know for sure, this Toyota will be in submission soon!
Had a very similar problem with a Pontiac G6. Found ground G105 bad. My best guess is an engine to chassis ground. Putting car in gear when it stops is a good clue. When you put car in gear engine and transmission tighten up in the suspension causing a ground connection to make a better connection.
True. I usually change out/ or add an engine ground at least every 10 years. All sorts of issues go away. Especially in the audio section. A good weaved ground costs like 6 bucks/ great ends to catch a bolt or whatever. That is what I do.
My money is on a cracked solder joint, and you make a “No Parts Required” repair. Also, I noticed an aftermarket radio……I like to quickly disconnect aftermarket accessories b4 diagnosing electrical gremlins. Just me.
Clicking fuel pump relay would account for the start stall. Now hanging on the notifications for part 2. Really cool yer...except for the owner lol 😒😒 !
Definitely a weird one Ive! Could it be green crusties on a power/earth circuit somewhere? The rev-dependence is odd. Could that relate to varying alternator output thus supply voltage? Part 2 is gunna be interesting!
My brain is yelling "BAD GROUNDS!" at me. This happens as much as "dirty air filter" and " blown Cap" happens when wathcing HVAC repair videos. I learned to check grounds when I was around 12 years old helping in an auto tranny shop. Im now 78.
As a pastor, these are not the typical ghosts and demons I exorcise but the way the car acted in the beginning I assumed the transmission was putting stress on a wiring harness that was compromised or corroded in some way and improving the connection.
Crazy case, Ivan! At a first glance it seems that there is a bad ground return somewhere, and main consumers modulate other modules / relays. Very curious to see how this goes :-)
I was thinking Alternator just before you mentioned it because of the temperature gauge. I'm curios why you didn't check the DTC code yet. I saw a mention of the turn signal flasher and agree the clicking sound made me the think of the emergency flasher. Good head scratcher. I have a feeling you all ready have a good idea what it is. Are green boogers in our future? lol
Haven't watched all the way through but noticed the cadence of the clicking correlate with engine RPM. Also the coolant temp gauge seemed to correlate with it too (perhaps because voltage is going up?). My guess is it's a ground related to the charging system
"I fixed it, turn on this big switch here after you start the car... it adds 60 amps worth of electrical load through a space heater to bring voltage down."
my brother once had an oldlate 60's dodge where the fuel gauge would only work if the headlights were off. when the lights were on the gauge would go to empty. there was a bad ground on the tank float.
A non-mechanic here. I would: 1) unplug temp sending unit and see if anything changes. 2) See if can recreate problem by simply hooking up the alternator at idle and disconnecting it. If the problem comes on and goes off with that change then I would write down the reading of every data point the scanner reports in both conditions and see where they are different, if at all. Odd that with the alternator unhooked it still changes symptoms with rpm increase. It feels like the engine computer is giving some bad commands when the system voltage is increased. Don't know if it is bad data going to computer or the computer simply malfunctioning. Could be a short or ground. Also not ruling out the Park light not illuminating as being related. This is a fun mystery.
This reminds me of what had happened to my 2001 LeSabre, I replaced the BCM and it solved the problem I didn't even have it programmed, I plugged it in and it worked, that was two or three years ago and it's been fine ever since, mine didn't click but the door chimes would sound, if I shut the aftermarket stereo off everything went back to normal, it was somehow related to the interface i figured because i put two small home stereo speakers on the back seat and wired them directly to the stereo bypassing the cars wiring harness and no more problems after, then i got the bcm and it fixed everything.
I would be curious to see power into and out of the ecu. But I agree with others that it could be a grounding issue. And, i have seen ungrounded aftermarket radios cause issues as well with power feedback through electronic circuits.
I had an older mazda rx7 that was going batty. Tracked it down to thr center instrument cluster that everything seemed to pass through that had a boat load of cold solder joints. Fixed, no parts required.
I think looking at the schematic for the transmission actuator code may reveal something. Ultimately, I think it is a power/ground issue with the PCM/Engine computer. I'm curious where the trans. actuator gets power from. I had a car I worked on once that kept setting intermittent trans. actuator codes. What I found is the fuel pump relay feeds power to the trans. actuators and the crankshaft sensor was bad, cutting in and out as the engine warmed up. Replaced the sensor and the car was fine after that. As I mentioned though, I think it's a power/ground issue.
I think its not the voltage but current. More voltage > higher current > more voltage loss on bad ground connection. Since reverse seems to fix the issue this is not power side ground problem but more towards control side.
Ivan “this is the coolest thing ever “ customer NO, NO it isn’t 🤣
It’s always entertaining when it’s not your car that’s possessed
I would bet Ivan would buy this Car only because it is so cool and drive all day with the "Clikys"
I always laugh whenever Ivan or Eric O. says "Yes! It's broken!" When they are trying to diagnose an intermittent problem.
@@JDel709 And when they find it, "There's your problem, lady."
😂😂😂😂😂
Nice car! This is literally the stuff of my nightmares....like really, I'm driving my Avalon, and lights start flashing, I see warnings I've never seen before, and it starts falling on its face. Then I wake up and go to the garage to find the car sitting there peacefully.
🤣🤣🤣
There aren’t too many things better on RUclips than seeing a Pine Hollow alert with ‘Part 1’ in the title!!!
I'LL WRENCH TO THAT!! 👍👏👏👏
Toyota dealer, "you need a new car" Ivan, NOPE, I do actual diagnosis.
We'll touch on what the Toyota dealer actually recommended after we fix this ghost ;)
The fact that the guy drove it three hours without putting his fist through that clicking annoyance is what amazes me the most....
Based on other Camry drivers, he must be blind. 😉
Doesn't it stop when the car is in "drive?"
Since you can see fuel pump relay glitching my next step would be to install a relay breakout between fuel pump relay and fuse box. Then monitor the power & ground on the control portion of relay with oscilloscope and see if its the power or ground dropping out. Really enjoy seeing how you work through these problems and it helps me in my work as heavy truck mechanic.
Yepper
I am an automotive technician and I stive to be a actuate as Ivan
Love those breakout devices
The display says April 1. The car is just pranking you!😂
Plus April 1 was a Monday, not a Tuesday. That must be the problem.
It got a new job as a turn signal
@@lukerudolph1022 What year ? :-)
My thoughts exactly 😂
The display says Tue April 1. But April 1, 2024 was a Monday. The last time April 1 was a Tuesday was 2014. Very weird indeed.
I paused the video at 13:01 and all I can say is this is very similar to an issue Eric O. had on a 2019 Tahoe/Yukon that had a bad ground on the frame that had been corroded by salt. Apparently, you are providing a ground by changing positions with the transmission switchgear, etc. Seems like Steven King wrote a book about a car like this, but it was a 1958 Plymouth. Just goes to show you all cars have issues, even the ones that have a "T" on the front. Ivan, you are just facinated with the fact this car is behaving badly. I don't think I have seen you this excited in a long time. GREAT VIDEO!
Not an uncommon problem... I've heard service bulletins to check the body ground on older Ford trucks because the transmission ends up being the ground, this in turn eats away bearings when you drive and you keep getting repeat transmission failure.
Christine?
But the only thing why isn’t it acting up when voltage is under 14v
Scotty wouldn't believe this if he didn't see it.
@@paulsz6194 You got it.
Only a minute or two in, and i can say I have already seem something similar. There is probably a ground out that is re-routing power as a result through the 4 way flasher module, which is why it is flashing.
Interesting thought... The cadence is very similar to a turn signal! 🤔
I would start by turning as many electrical accessories on as possible and see if all systems are affected. For example if the running lights flicker, the blower motor speed fluctuates, or the ac compressor cuts on and off you know it's something that affects the whole car, not just certain systems. That can help save a lot of time when determining what to look for.
29:57 Jumper cable from battery ground to engine block.
Every nightmarish symptom elicits a euphoric response from you. I love this channel and learning from your approach to life’s issues
Ivan back in the 80s. Volvo had a similar problem with them Temp and Fuel gauges.
In Volvo's case it was a voltage stabiliser fitted onto the rear of the dash panel.
Replace it and it was cured.
Only saying.
I wondered if it was a voltage regulator too
Hey Ivan, we had a 2002 Aussie Ford in the workshop at one time.
The Instrument cluster would go nuts with things flashing on & off, the temp gauge with a mind of it's own, tacho bouncing etc, very similar to what you have there.
The problem only existed with the engine running, the car ran great with no apparent issues except a stall at idle sometimes.
The problem turned out to be inductive spikes from the ignition coil pack, we changed the coil pack & everything was perfect once again.
It did take some head scratching to work it out.
This may not be related but it reminded me of this problem Ford.
The temp gage lost its damping for some reason- it is now showing ACTUAL coolant temperature which does vary as you go through different engine power ranges. NOrmally the system keeps this steady as long as within a given "normal" range.
That was a similar deal as the story that I was telling you about a while back when I diagnosed & repaired my great uncles stepdaughters Australian built 1997 Ford EL Falcon Futura which was powered by Ford Australias "Thriftpower" 4 litre inline six cylinder engine.
It was intermittently doing exactly the same thing & the engine was stalling back in 2022,it eventually needed to be towed to where I can fix it which was at my dads house because every time she would place it into drive then the engine would stall out.
I found out the problem was under the steering column which was where the main ignition feed to the engines ECU & ignition system as well as the rest of the cars electrics was connected to a crappy aftermarket engine immobilizer which was actually what was causing that "clickety click" sound & flashing lights on the dash as well as a stalled out engine.
The first owner did a bit of a botched installation by running the main ignition switch feed directly through the immobilizer unit instead of a relay switched by the module which was 25 years old & the electrical connectors which were used in house wiring they used to join the wires.
I just cut the main yellow/red ignition wires then added an extension piece to extend the length of the wire then I soldered both ends together as how Ford originally wired it up at the Broadmeadows factory in Victoria.
So I totally bypassed the aftermarket engine immobilizer/car alarm then the car drove flawlessly, she has been driving the car for the last 2 years without any problems.
So in the Avalon,if there's no additional modules such as the engine immobilizer then it's likely going to be the ECU which is faulty,I know that in my 2002 model Holden VY SS Commodore I had a faulty ABS module cause the air conditioning system not to work or cut out as well as making the instrument cluster go haywire.
So it was messing around with the body control module,in the Holden Commodores that faulty ABS module was also known to cause other problems like causing the alternator to overcharge the battery, etc !
I'd start by measuring voltage between the engine block and battery ground. A working alternator will stress that connection. Engine movement when going in/out of gear will mechanically test that connection.
I was thinking that too but it just seems too constant and reproduceable, any issue with a ground like that I have ever seen is generally far more intermittent.
Having said that, I would have no idea where to look next.
The wiring diagram would probably be a good start, see what controls that relay and what else it is connected to.
Exactly what you said at the end of the video is what I would do next. Figure out what's connected between the relay clicking and the screen. Of that the check engine light went out for a bit. But none the less time to sit down n do ur research.
I've seen something like this before. It turned out to be a poor ground between engine and frame. It was grounding through the drivetrain.
I remember an aftermarket fuel pump relay that was incorrect causing a similar issue way back and replacing it with an OE relay fixed the issue
This is Ivan's "Top Best Thing" After Christmass!
Hi Ivan, love your work. My theory is this:
You have a voltage regulation problem of some sort at or after the alternator. The car doesn’t like anything over 12 volts, which is what should be regulated to the 12v components such as the dash. Seems like that relay is not getting regulated voltage of 12 volts between it and the alternator. Noticed no clicking happens when you have the car running just off 12 volts battery signal. This is the route I would take. Check the voltage regulator on the alternator, and then trace voltage from that point in between the wiring where it leads into that relay. It could be the alternator regulator is bad, the relay is bad, or some of the wiring in between is causing the voltage not to regulate down to 12 volts so the system is happy like it’s supposed to.
Guess it's time to pull a wiring diagram and see what's in common with that relay. I'm suspicious of the control side. Is it a power or ground issue that is in question or maybe a module. Can't wait for the next Video! Thanks for taking the time to post this one!
IVAN,
YOU ARE THE MOST OBSERVANT DIAGNOSTICS TECHNICIAN I EVER SEEN IN THE BUSINESS. I LOVE THE WAY YOU ACCUMALTE YOUR FACTS AND PUT THEM
IN AN APPROCH BASED ON FACTS AND WIRINGS DIAGRAMS. YOU MUST HAVE AN EXTRA SENSES; GOOD FOR YOU.
THATS WHY THEY CONTACT YOU AND SEEK YOUR HELP.
YOU ARE AMAZING WITH YOUR ENGINEERING BACKROUND AND DESIGN. THAK YOU IVAN.
The relay has GREEN on the contacts ! The fuel pump is a large current draw, and it is going on and off ,spiking the system. Keep going.!
It did sort of look nasty. And the position of it with salt-laden wet boots knocking it. Where is the cover for it?
The carpet gets salty wet, and right underneath that relay.
Change to the relay. Cheap even for Toyota's inflated prices.
Wouldn't you figure that would cause running issues, though? Car runs rock solid. Wonder if that truly is the fp relay.
@@disgruntledcanuck visible green . No idea where it woll lead. Could be something behind that relay or fuse box has more crusty green...Just a clue right now. I remember how a relay sounds when my battery cables got loose or the battery is low...click, click ,click click... Same sound, different solenoid...something to investigate .
This car reminds me of a GM vehicle that I had many years ago. All lights flashed when moving the gearshift lever and at various speeds. The only ground was through the gearshift cable and/or speedo cable. Good body ground, bad engine ground, replaced the bad negative battery cable, the shift cable and the Speedo cable as they were cooked from the current.
This a good one Ivan! I can’t wait for part 2!
I think of all boring Toyotas specifically, that era of Avalon was really decent. I Think Toyota nailed the formula for the Avalon back then.
My hypothesis: the relay provides a ground path and when it’s fluttering the system is hunting for a ground.
Very cool, i love the fact that you are excited by unusual problem cars. Eric and Bernie display a similar attitude. Its something i try to emulate when i am faced with a broken car, it puts you in the right frame of mind. Interestingly, looking at the diagrams, that looked to be the C/open relay you pulled. So the next logical step would be studying a wiring diagram to see whats connected to that relay. I am waiting impatiently for part 2. Thanks Ivan.
Eric O did a similar video a couple years ago on a Chevy truck where the dashboard went ballistic. Solution: He installed a separate ground wire from engine block to chassis. My 04 Blazer did the same thing and the ground wire also fixed my run-away dashboard lights. Thanks Eric!
I bought a low mileage Corolla with an automatic transmission once that acted crazy. It turned out to be the speedometer. I pulled out the cluster and replaced only the speedometer with a junk yard replacement and it drove like a new car. Toyotas are a different breed.
Wow that is a Very Strange Electrical Issue Ivan,
Looking Forward to part 2
To the analytical mind, this is content GOLD! The problem is unique, the symptoms Many! Get after it, Ivan, and rock this car's ghost! 👻👻👻
Wiring diagram will be interesting to see what kind of power/ ground distribution this vehicle has, and what exactly powers up those relays. Can't say what my next step would be until I see a wiring diagram. Those older Toyotas can be very complex. Great job gathering evidence so far 👍. Looking forward to part 2.
Have a 07 Buick Allure, did almost same thing, 2 yrs ago. Pulled the ECM (has a casing ground). Aluminum body was corroded. Wire brushed it and all dash/radio/keyless start issues vanished.
Great video!! And I really enjoy all the fantastic input from the fans on similar issues and the experts out there. Thank you all!!
It's funny that many of us give you what to look for but since it's already found ,but this one is easy to diagnose because it's not intermitent . wiring diag scan, amps loads circuits check basic stuff for me.
In the movie The Sting I believe it was Pau Newman's character who stated thatthe perfect con was the one in which the target never knew that they had been swindled. Ivan, I congratulate you for running the perfect con. The smile on your face when you encounter a diagnostic dilemma clearly suggests that folks are paying you to do something that provides you with a degree of joy sufficient to warrant you paying them for the entertainment value you get while solving these problems.
I do enjoy my "job" ;)
Check the panel that the fuel pump plugs into. He stated the problem got worse when it rained. Plugged drain in the cowel may have water leaking into that area and its corroded.
“This is the COOLEST car ever!” Ivan’s version of discovering cheats in a video game. 🤣🤣🤣 I would scope the power and grounds at the instrument panel and that relay and go from there. This should be fun!!
Man this seems all too familiar with a 2010 Honda crv with a bad ignition coil striking the computer randomly. Problem only occurred while running with cel flicker and random stall and it drove perfect with no misfires before changing the coil. I was getting a pcm internal fault code and etc relay control code. PCM and throttle body was replaced and it ended up needing #4 ignition coil. At least I know now the car has good powers and grounds to the pcm and the complete etc relay control circuit! Your symptoms are a bit different because the relay going crazy for me was the etc relay (throttle body) Cool car Ivan!
Electronics can do very weird things when components interact...the symptoms on this Toyota were quite entertaining...flashing, buzzing, but drove so smoothly!!
I would check the wiring going to the fuel pump for signs of damage or corrosion. I'm sure the car has a in-tank fuel pump but that doesn't mean the connection isn't damaged somewhere. The pump is shorting to the unibody. Possibly.
I'm not gonna be able to sleep until I've seen part 2 Ivan. I'd love to work with you on this one. !
Ivan, With the battery charger, you probably should be doing two tests: 1st with the charger grounded to the battery as you already have done, but secondly, ground the charger to the Engine block instead, so as to load the block ground the same way the Alternator does when producing power and see if you get any different behavior.
I have been driving Toyotas since 1990 and never had a problem. Not so much as a flat tire. WTH? It is a good thing that Ivan has never been defeated. LOL
Crazy. Sweet problem! I guess I would do some swap Tronics with the relay and check the grounds at the ECU make sure they can carry current. Since the clicking sounds like a turn signal and since there is a reported rain issue I would wanna explore a weird backfeed problem.
Wow, you don't see that every day! What a great case for your channel.
Wow I can't wait for the final diagnosis on this one!
On my Hyndai Getz car, all the lights started flashing and clicking, I checked the masses between the body and the engine. I put a thicker new wire between the body and the engine, I took off the instrument panel and cleaned all the connectors. Also the ECU connectors. The gauge readings all moved to the end and zero alternately. letter errors. I cleaned all the test legs, relay legs and sockets. This both in the engine room and in the cabin. Apart from that, everything is as it should be. Conclusion, from time to time, all electrical connections on the car need to be mechanically and chemically cleaned.
Depends of where you live, what kind of atmosphere. Do you live close to the beach, or in a high humidity area? This is the first Hyundai Getz that is have heard to have this problem.
Here's my opinions...
when it was stalling out you could hear the whine from the alternator when it was hooked back up.
when you hear that familliar whine of the alternagtor in my experience its something drawling way to much current/amperage possibly a direct short to ground , but a dead battery can do this too if it wants more juice the alternator can provide. This usually makes the belt squeek or if its a near dead or dead short to ground it'll stall the engine it might not kill the battery but its enough strain on the electrical system to stall the engine after you hear the overloaded alternator start whinning .
Im saying these seneros because vehicle electrical systems operates on DC current and don't like it if any form of AC current which will make things act wonky in so many differnt ways. Motors and light bulbs wont care about the AC on the system.
Also ..
An alternator turns the DC battery voltage into AC current as the engine spins the alternator and its Stepped up to anywhere from low voltage AC to lets say 120volts AC for example like residential electrical service But also its in a 3 phase star/delta configuration. There's a Diode package inside the alternator that takes the 3phase power and rectifies it back to DC its still not at battery voltage yet. and the rectifier also takes the 3 phase power and turns it into single phase power. at This point the power is not a clean DC power its almost clean its a pulsating DC current. AS the Battery can and will Filter the pulsating DC into a Clean useable DC current. as it has capacitive properties to it all that is needed to stop the pulsating DC and make clean DC is 1 or many capacitors that will smooth and filter DC output of the diode rectifier . Then sends it to the voltage regulator and is regulated down to 12 volts to 14 volts of semi useable DC. the regulator does add some filtering of the pulsed DC. The unclean DC doesnt mess with Things like if there is AC on the system. AC is an NO NO on DC circuits and devices. unless its powering a light bulb .
Like Ivan said You'll need a OSCOPE to see the waveform on the system . AC will show up as noise and an actual sine wave depending on the severity of AC present.
A clean DC signal will look like a FLAT line on the scope with a frequency of 100HZ. Pulsed DC will look like morse code with long and short dashes that alternate high and low.
A Digital volt meter can show AC on DC systems but it can only show the voltage of the AC . You have to put the meter on AC to read AC on DC powerd circuits.
I see the dash date is April 1st - April Fool's Day ! Nice one Ivan !
At a guess, there was a big clue in the email.
Maybe a red herring but cudtomer said a garage had cleaned the earth and it went away for a day.
Could that be a coincidence ?
Certainly acts like a bad earth, now I've had a guess can't wait to see the outcome.
This is a really good case study. I'm not sure where to start looking just yet. But my first impression is that we may have a poor power delivery or ground issue to the BCM. Let's see what ALLDATA has for us.
Cadence is key here, Fuel pump surge?, damper diode on relays? Harmonics? Capacitors? Coils? can all create havoc, remember the engine noise thru the radio back in the day and resistor sparkplugs? Yep fun little puzzle you got here, Curious to see what "ripple" is on the line if any? and pump amp draw? Looking forward for the fix. I had a diode glitching out a Parker drive one time and that took me a day to find it. lol Have fun it Ivan, It's magic.lol
I suspect a compromised main body ground. The thick ground cable from the engine block to the battery is likely fine since the engine cranks normally. The fuel pump and other items ground through the body of the car, and by removing loads, the bad ground may be able to pass just enough current to work. I figure the problem will be located at the body ground wire where it attaches to the negative battery terminal.
love seeing you get excited over cars showing off SUPER weird behaviors but holy shit thats something that would make me leave the battery disconnected until its at the shop god knows what that electrical ghost would turn on.
Before we found OUR Gen2 Avalon in good shape, we had a 1994 VW Golf in which a normal-behaving electrical system happened about 1% of running time. Then came a 2000 Taurus that developed intermittent no-start due to corrosion on the mega-fuse combined with an internal circuit open in the fuel pump driver module. No problems in the now 22 year old Avalon, but then, its an XL, not the upscale XLS in this video, which has a load more electronic bells and whistles.
Sorry, my mistake. The new ground was from the engine block to the body, not the chassis. No problems with crazy dash lights for last two years.
I like trying to guess as the vid plays. At 13.26 I'm wondering if the flickering is linked to the seatbelt reminder 😂
I believe we have seen a couple of hints' The car doesn't like wet/damp conditions. Based on it's condition it is likely kept in a garage in WV, so it is usually dry on first start. At Pine Hollow it was outside, on the grass and early morning so likely much more damp than normal. This may have contributed to the initial start/stall condition. The owner also reported symptoms in wet conditions. The data we have so far also implicates the fuel pump circuit. Could be power on the fuel pump circuit, but more likely a ground for the fuel pump circuit. The battery charger test seems to have ruled out alternator ripple, but checking for ripple with the Pico will completely rule out alternator problems.
Ran across one just like this, flashing clicking, stalling, the engine to body ground was bad, all green and flaking apart.
Wiring diagram and see what controls that relay, and if it shares a power, say off a maxi fuse, with anything else. Same thing with the gnd. Does it share a common gnd. I'd have to start there. I think the trans code and coolant temp if true, may be separate issues. Who knows!?
That fault is wild. Love it. Can't wait for part 2 :D
Interesting one again :D My guess is something wrong with the wiring for fuel pump / fuel gauge, or ground related to them. That relay may be faulty too after all that crazy clicking :D
It's clicking at a rate that matches, The Who, Tommy, Christmas. It's singing that background vocal Tommy Tommy Tommy Tommy...
I've still got like 90 min left in this saga but I'm gonna attempt a 1st quarter prediction of a failing relay with that clicking
Tricky one. On the Toyota really weird flaky stuff it has lead me back to the corroded capacitors in the PCM. Just wondering if you have the same issue. Thanks Ivan!
That 'clicking' sounds like a 1960's TeleFax machine!
In the beginning of the video The reason the problem improved when you put it in Drive is the RPM's lowered and put out less voltage
Throttle body on Toyotas do this too. No codes. Clean throttle body and recheck.
I knew someone who had a car that looked exactly like this one. It had electrical problems immediately after purchase and went back to the dealer many times, never to be repaired. I think they put a piece of tape over the blinking light and drove it until replacing the car years later. I'm curious about the voltage and ripple on the 5V supply coming out of the computer - but with the fuel pump being known to be the source of clicking, I'd look for a resistance in the circuit sending power to the fuel pump relay. I'm thinking that when the relay contact closes and the fuel pump draws current, the voltage to the relay contact is dropping. This much I do know for sure, this Toyota will be in submission soon!
My money is the installation of the “after market” radio.
Had a very similar problem with a Pontiac G6. Found ground G105 bad. My best guess is an engine to chassis ground. Putting car in gear when it stops is a good clue. When you put car in gear engine and transmission tighten up in the suspension causing a ground connection to make a better connection.
True. I usually change out/ or add an engine ground at least every 10 years. All sorts of issues go away. Especially in the audio section.
A good weaved ground costs like 6 bucks/ great ends to catch a bolt or whatever. That is what I do.
My money is on a cracked solder joint, and you make a “No Parts Required” repair.
Also, I noticed an aftermarket radio……I like to quickly disconnect aftermarket accessories b4 diagnosing electrical gremlins. Just me.
Just started watching @ 4:30. If it is anything like many older Hyundai's my bet would be the BCM.
Clicking fuel pump relay would account for the start stall. Now hanging on the notifications for part 2. Really cool yer...except for the owner lol 😒😒 !
Definitely a weird one Ive! Could it be green crusties on a power/earth circuit somewhere? The rev-dependence is odd. Could that relate to varying alternator output thus supply voltage? Part 2 is gunna be interesting!
My brain is yelling "BAD GROUNDS!" at me. This happens as much as "dirty air filter" and " blown Cap" happens when wathcing HVAC repair videos. I learned to check grounds when I was around 12 years old helping in an auto tranny shop. Im now 78.
As a pastor, these are not the typical ghosts and demons I exorcise but the way the car acted in the beginning I assumed the transmission was putting stress on a wiring harness that was compromised or corroded in some way and improving the connection.
It's possible the prior shop did repair the problem, but the 20 years old motor mounts allowed things to move enough to break it again.
Detective Ivan on the job!
Crazy case, Ivan! At a first glance it seems that there is a bad ground return somewhere, and main consumers modulate other modules / relays. Very curious to see how this goes :-)
I was thinking Alternator just before you mentioned it because of the temperature gauge. I'm curios why you didn't check the DTC code yet. I saw a mention of the turn signal flasher and agree the clicking sound made me the think of the emergency flasher. Good head scratcher. I have a feeling you all ready have a good idea what it is. Are green boogers in our future? lol
It’s showing signs of a switch mode voltage regulator failure somewhere. AKA likely bad caps, cracked solder joints, main relay, green crusties, etc.
Haven't watched all the way through but noticed the cadence of the clicking correlate with engine RPM. Also the coolant temp gauge seemed to correlate with it too (perhaps because voltage is going up?). My guess is it's a ground related to the charging system
Ah you checked the voltage. What a weird issue!
Check battery ground at the battery, both ends of the negative cable (ground points @ bell housing & intake bolt) AND body grounds...
Start with the basics and work your way up. The scope may show some glitches. Sometimes grounds will do strange things.
Adjust the regulator to 13.2155 volts call it good ! LMAO great video
"I fixed it, turn on this big switch here after you start the car... it adds 60 amps worth of electrical load through a space heater to bring voltage down."
my brother once had an oldlate 60's dodge where the fuel gauge would only work if the headlights were off. when the lights were on the gauge would go to empty. there was a bad ground on the tank float.
A non-mechanic here. I would: 1) unplug temp sending unit and see if anything changes. 2) See if can recreate problem by simply hooking up the alternator at idle and disconnecting it. If the problem comes on and goes off with that change then I would write down the reading of every data point the scanner reports in both conditions and see where they are different, if at all. Odd that with the alternator unhooked it still changes symptoms with rpm increase. It feels like the engine computer is giving some bad commands when the system voltage is increased. Don't know if it is bad data going to computer or the computer simply malfunctioning. Could be a short or ground. Also not ruling out the Park light not illuminating as being related. This is a fun mystery.
i remember a steven king roman,she drove herself just after midnite😂🎉christine
This reminds me of what had happened to my 2001 LeSabre, I replaced the BCM and it solved the problem I didn't even have it programmed, I plugged it in and it worked, that was two or three years ago and it's been fine ever since, mine didn't click but the door chimes would sound, if I shut the aftermarket stereo off everything went back to normal, it was somehow related to the interface i figured because i put two small home stereo speakers on the back seat and wired them directly to the stereo bypassing the cars wiring harness and no more problems after, then i got the bcm and it fixed everything.
I would be curious to see power into and out of the ecu. But I agree with others that it could be a grounding issue.
And, i have seen ungrounded aftermarket radios cause issues as well with power feedback through electronic circuits.
My next step would to be to watch part 2 to see what you do.
I had an older mazda rx7 that was going batty. Tracked it down to thr center instrument cluster that everything seemed to pass through that had a boat load of cold solder joints. Fixed, no parts required.
I think looking at the schematic for the transmission actuator code may reveal something. Ultimately, I think it is a power/ground issue with the PCM/Engine computer. I'm curious where the trans. actuator gets power from. I had a car I worked on once that kept setting intermittent trans. actuator codes. What I found is the fuel pump relay feeds power to the trans. actuators and the crankshaft sensor was bad, cutting in and out as the engine warmed up. Replaced the sensor and the car was fine after that. As I mentioned though, I think it's a power/ground issue.
I think its not the voltage but current. More voltage > higher current > more voltage loss on bad ground connection. Since reverse seems to fix the issue this is not power side ground problem but more towards control side.
Another clue, customer stated rain also effects this condition. Possible water intrusion, corroded connectors... Hmm, may have to consult with Scotty.
My money is on a ground issue somewhere, locate clean and test every ground wire then start the diagnostic process if problems aren’t resolved
Right idea but wrong approach. We have to DIAGNOSE the problem BEFORE touching anything 😉