Rating the Logic of AoE2's Blacksmith Techs
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- Опубликовано: 2 дек 2022
- Second Part of the General Techtree Series, where we have a nitpicky look on every Tech in the Techtree.
Part 1: • Rating the Logic of Ao...
Illustrations of knights taken from book: A Chronicle History of Knights
by Andrea Hopkins ISBN 1-84509-109-4
Forging Artwork: / 171559067047747459 
Игры
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I imagine that the studded leader armour might have appeared in fiction from someone going in a medieval museum, seeing a closed brigandine and thinking "looks cool" and did not read the panel with the explanation.
actually thats very plausible
"... Replaced by Gundam armor."
I barely avoided spitting my coffee over my screen 🤣
Delightful content as usual, for me as a history nerd and AOE2 player! One note as a historical archery practionner now: I think what they intended to represent on the Bodkin icon is the "plate cutter" arrowhead, but it still classifies as Bodkin. What we more typically associate in our minds with the Bodkin head is the "needle arrowhead", which is the first iteration of Bodkin head, and was probably invented to deal with mail armor. Like the name suggests, the head is very tapered and narrow, no wider than the shaft itself. The plate cutter head is an evolution (though needle bodkins continued to be used) as regards to plate armour developpment, as the diamond shape bites in metal more.
Now the one the the DE icon is still a wee bit too broad to my taste as well, but not out of plausibility realm I'd say. But I'd stick to the mark you gave (4 stars) as well.
Hi Manuel Thanks for the interest and feedback!
I have to admit, I didnt think about the plate cutter head. I was under the impression that the needle Bodkin is THE Bodkin. Nevertheless, the pretty broad head on the DE icon probably is also an attempt to resemble the far-off original icon, so that players can recognize the tech. Which in turn, makes the diomond too broad
Bro. 5 out of 5 stars vid. Humor, knowledge, side pictures, outdoor demonstaration everything just great bro.
Thank bro!
Seems like Iron Casting should refer more to Crucible Steel
We need to scale up our research and content quality, DAMN WHAT AN AWESOME VİDEO❤
sometimes i wonder how come the comments here are so encouraging and inspiring... just wow
The ultimate building for anti-ouchies technology
Having enough of getting Ouchies on the battlefield?...Get now the BLACKSMITH (only 150 wood)
Thanks for another cool upload!
Best sub-1000 channel on RUclips. I could watch endless hours of this type of content.
But still, breaks are good! Take all you need HHF, I look forward to whatever you might put out next.
Thanks for such encouraging words
Thank you for the great video! You truly are the Johnny Sins of AoE 2!
because he also teach?
I just love it! The humor, the historical facts, even the IRL example for the bracer, hats off 👌
Looking forward to the next one!
Merci:)
I just came from the future to tell you all that my man Armchair Saurus predicted the Gambesons' infantry technologic. Absolutely nailed it.
I've just discovered your channel and already watched all videos. Fantastic content mate. Congrats.
thank you Bruno for you encouragement:)
@@armchairsaurus It's me that thank you for your videos. In a world of mediocracy and copycats; original, funny and well researched and produced content, like yours, must be praised. Cheers.
I like how it could be interpreted as the smith being established THEN forging is invented. Before that upgrade the staff are just standing around wondering what the strange objects are XD
HAHAHA exactly thats my point
I would not turn down blast furnace soo hard. Yes it produces cast metal, however its third upgrade in line. And therefore it means that forging is already included in tech. And blast furnace enables you to cast more pure metals. Soo therefore its not producing end product the weapons, but its used to get high purity metals that after can be forged into weapons.
you are right. as many pointed out, it seems I have ranked this one too low
Bondage makes the ranged units more flexible, thus increasing their armor class of course 🤣😏 also how armor works in fantasy settings of course!
I love these videos. Combining real history and one of my favorite historical games! Great work!
thank you Nobody:)
This series of videos is fantastic. I just watched all your vids. Please make more!!
9:01 and thus universal century began
Can u do Monk technologies next. I'm pretty sure that they must all be historicallly accurate.
This will be a controversy-sparking nightmare... So I will probably not go through in the same detailled manner:)
Such a great video, consistently hitting the mark so far!
Once you are done with the techs and unique units, you could try a video about the historical accuracy of the Architectural styles of each civ-type! The Original 4 building styles has some very interesting bits and pieces such as the Central European Building styles (used for the Goths, Huns, Vikings and Teutons) having an Armenian/Georgian style church, or the fact the original Frank wonder was actually based on a Catholic church... in New York.
Thanks for the feedback and the idea.
This idea actually crossed my mind, but I ditched it for now, simply because I hardly know anything about architecture. So either I would need to do massive amount or research, or talk about sth im clueless about...and both I'd like to avoid.
but maybe a video could be about the most remarkable features and fun facts
Love the random AOM menu music at the end
its actually throughout the whole video in the BG. just on low volume
AS a historic material lover, love the video. Thanx
That sick AoM soundtrack
I’d love to see different games vs reality (games like age of empires and not warcraft). Just my idea for a series you could create. I was glad the algorithm recommended your channel and I hope you grow more.
There is still some stuff I want to cover on AoE but then for the future of the channel Im thinking expanding to other games, series and movies
Stop kink shaming my archers! They can fight in bondage outfits if they want.
Bondage with soft petting must be my favourite aoe2 technology 😁❤
Btw as someone who used to train archery I can say forearm protection is very important. It hurts as hell when you slash your skin with the bowstring. Also a leather strip for your fingers when you draw the string
"Bondage with soft petting" 🤣
is the need for forearm protection considered to be person specific (individual technique / anatomy)?. Because when I tried it a bit, I never had the problem of string slash.
@@armchairsaurus it depends wether one has hyperextension in their elbow (my friend had it). Also if you rotate your elbow externally (the movement is actually in your shoulder) the forearm gets a little more exposed. Ofcourse you have to remember not to do that or keep your elbow slightly bent, but sometimes we just forgot and it hurt 😁
yeahhhh was looking forward to this! cheers and thanks!
I do really love the little jokes about Gundam armor being used to replace previous Japanese armor. Your dry tone of voice adds to the humour of it (I like mixing british and american english)
im german native speaker, so my english is a mix of what I learned in school (British) and what you hear in media (mostly American)
@@armchairsaurus you didn't need to volunteer that
Really hope your channel grows more!
Thank you for the support:)
More uploads coming soon hopefully
hope so too:)
Great content, keep it coming!
yoooo i was waiting 4 ur video
Amazing content, pretty funny. Also with good info. Subscribed!
great to hear, thanks!
I love it. Definitely worth more attention😂
Great video! Some additional techs that could be added to the game in the future are tempering and folding, but maybe I've been watching too much forged in fire.
+6 and +8 melee damage?:)
@@armchairsaurus
I love these videos. Great, as expected. Do you think that they put any blacksmith techs in the wrong order? Like I would have thought padded armour would be better and possibly more advanced than leather armour.
I think the order is fine. Both styles are so rudimentary that its hard or even impossible to pin down when and where they emerged. And if you interpret the leather armor to be a Brigandine, then it definitely should be after padded armor.
Generally the order in the Blacksmith is perfect (especially, scale, mail, plate). Only exception: You could swap the order of Bodkin and Bracer
Thank you for sharing knowledge for us! Respect! :)
very welcome, but always remember not everything said can be taken as undoubted knowledge (especially about things far in the past). So much we "know" about middle ages are assumptions
@@armchairsaurus Roger That!
Plz cover the aoe4 tech tree, it looks very interesting and more accurate to history
interesting idea
Reallyi informative and love the AoM music. :D
QUe buen canal, man!
University and Ship Techs in the future videos.
sure sure. I go left to right. so they will come soon
9:50
It's actually a little more complicated. Shields actually got smaller cause they got thicker and so had to be smaller to remain light enough to be maneuverable. A 14th century kite shield is over 4,5 times thicker than a 8th century one. This was done because advancements in armor also spurred advancements in weapons. With things like halberds and maces.
6th-9th century kite shields were so big cause they were very thin. They really only served to protect against arrow fire or to push away static spears. late medieval kite shields, while having the same shape were made for a different purpose which is to deflect powerful blows from anti-armor weapons. They were meant to take a pole axe blow head on which would go straight through a thin kite shield.
This is also why a lot of early kite shields have hide on them while the late ones do not. In the early ones if they got wet the wood would expand and could warp the shield so the hide kept the water at bay and helped keep it in the right shape. Late kite shields were thick enough and sturdy enough that this wasn't an issue.
Wow really insightful. Thank you, that much so much sense and I never have heard of that before. I always thought shields got smaller because with armor getting better, combatants could rely more on their armor, and thus accepted to have less protection form their shield in return for better visibility, maneuvrability etc.
@@armchairsaurus Shields have an optimum weight where they stop being practical to use and shields never deviated from that. Their proportions just changed. Exchanging surface area for thickness as their purpose changed. From protecting against arrows and swords to protecting against halbards and maces.
@@armchairsaurus Another area where you can see this change is how the shields are held. Early thin shields often are center grip with a metal cup in the middle to get to hand to the center of gravity so it's easier to manouver around your body to stop sword and arrow attacks from different directions.
Later shields were almost always strap-on shields cause they were meant to take heavy blows. When absorbing a hard blow from a mace or pole-axe a shield held only by the grip of your fingers would get flung away so you want it securely strapped to your arm.
@@armchairsaurus I made a mistake there. The weight of kite shields did not stay the same and they actually got heavier as time went on.
Also warfare during the late middle ages was far more organized than during the early middle ages. So being able to quickly maneuver a shield around was not as big of a concern. This is also why the ancient Greeks used strap-on shields rather than center grip shields cause they relied on tight formations.
The classic norman soldier actually illustrates it very well. He is wearing a full halberk which is somewhat vulnerable to arrows so he has a shield with a big surface area to protect himself against that. Arrows coming in at an angle are easily deflected by mail but arrows coming straight on can split between the rings. Plate is pretty much immume to arrows no matter what the angle so shields stopped being used for that. Instead they were repurposed to protect you against the sort of weapons you were still vulnerable too even with armor.
@@armchairsaurus I have 1 more thing (sorry).
Shields got thicker and thicker until they had shrunken down to not much bigger than a cup. These tiny shields are known as bucklers and were quite common in the 15th century. Because they were so tiny they were not only used by fully armored knights to absorb blows. But also by lords as a companion to a rapier. Bucklers were commonly made of metal though and they required quite a bit of skill to deflect blows with as they were only a little bit bigger than your hand. But they were sturdy enough to parry the full force of a 2 handed war hammer if you braced it correctly.
Though that is quite difficult and if you don't hold it correctly you will break your arm so at that point many decided to just stop using them. The surface area was so tiny that it wasn't worth it anymore. And like I already said making the surface area bigger means you have to make it thinner to keep it usable which means it won't protect you against heavy weapons.
Bucklers were commonly used though by unarmored soldiers or even civilians as they provided protection against heavy weapons while not getting in the way. A sword-buckler combination became the side-arm of choice during the late middle ages and into the Renaissance.
Could ring archer armor be called chain archer armor? Surely archers could've had some type of chainmail? Perhaps its not called that way so people wouldn't get confused with the second cavalry and infantry armor techs?
(chain)Mail for archers would be totally fine. But this is not what the icon shows
11:45
I kind of dispute that, the very high cost was not due to material but the immense amount of skilled labor involved. However horse armor was generally not made to quite as high a standard or of as complex a shape. You can see in many depictions it doesn't fit anywhere near as snugly as the human armor nor does it go around tricky areas like the joints.
However this also meant it was more limited compared to human armor and only really provided protection against arrowfire from above. Against spears up close or well aimed javalins it couldn't do anything.
agree that the "cost-per-pound" of barding armor is lower than human armor. However, it is still a lot of pounds
@@armchairsaurus I do still think in total it is cheaper since again next to the amount of skilled labor needed the material cost is not very significant.
Also since horse armor is only really meant to guard against arrow fire it doesn't need to be of as high quality steel. Arrows are light so they just don't have a lot of penetration power. Even relatively thin low quality steel is enough to stop them.
The "armor piercing" heads are mainly effective against cloth and mail because they can slip in between the fibers of rings and push them apart. This is the main reason why plate was developed in the first place.
@@MrMarinus18 ok you might have a point there. Some barding armor was however also very elaborate.
11:03
*MEANWHILE INDIA CIVS HAS SIEGE ELEPHANTS*
I love your videos. The Age of Mythology soundtrack is causing some cognitive dissonance, though! 😂
I know, its a tough one to swallow. But wanted to mix it up a bit:)
helll yeah that means my arbalests are wearing bondage
indeed. But most players prioritize teching first into protection from ouchies on the forearm;)
Great video as always for us AoE nerds. Are you doing all the video edits on your own btw?
Thank you, user-tig6. Yes i do. thats why i upload so intermittently. but now in winter ill spend more time on it than in the summer
I swear that was AoM music in the background...
yeah you can swear on that
I saw Feudal India-Pakistan and European cavalry horse used chain mail.
where did you see that? Do you have any images or links. Id be curious
In the game Jacksmith, you first cast the metal into shape, then forge it afterwards to improve its quality. Would this be a viable procedure, and could it justify the role of the "Iron Casting" technology in AoE2?
From my (limited!) understandong: No this is not how it would be done. But I have to admit I couldnt tell you why
It actually could be done though before the invention of the blast furnace there wasn't really much point in doing so. Why cast something and then forge it? Why not just forge it?
However after the invention of the blast furnace casting iron and forging it afterwards was done due to the blast furnace removing impurities far better than folding could. This not only produced superior steel but also significantly cut down on the production time by removing the folding process.
@@MrMarinus18 Thanks for helping out Mr
420/69 stars for this video wololo
Yes. Petting under males is crucial. I think so as well. Außerdem wäre es empfehlenswert, dem § 5 TMG zu entsprechen und ein Impressum zu haben ;)
Nice video bro, one question is it more common Asians use leather armor more often? 10 out of 10 love your content
In a way, yes. A very common type of armor in east asia was Lamellar Armor. Rectangular pieces were laced together. Those were out of metal...or leather. The lamellar armor somehow resembled the brigandine, by which it was later often replaced. So, the tech archer leather armor could also be interpreted as east asian Lamellar Armor (Though the icon looks more like a Brigandine).
google Lamellar Armor or see for example here: www.quora.com/Why-was-the-usage-of-lamellar-armor-so-common-in-East-Asia
Well to be perfectly honest arrows would require fletching no? So in that regard, it would make more sense if fletching was a tech that allowed arrow-shooting units to be built.
in most practical cases yes. But there were arrows without fletching. You'd just have to go back veeeeeery far in time.
I think I mentioned at some point that fletching is a super old tech? In any case, you are right that it definitely predates the AoE2 timeline
Hol up, i've been seeing the dock tech tree on the right throughout the video.
Are we talking about ship techs in episode 3?
most likely, as im going left to right. But depends also on the feedback. If people are bored by this format ill switch things up and maybe look at unique units instead
hope you add closed captions for people who are deaf or not native english speakers. Your accent compounds with it beign harder to understand. I do like how you pronounce the thumb as tump.
I was actually really craving this new video. Love them a lot though I would like the more if they were more scripted.
closed captions are already entered. it just takes youtube a little while to auto-synch the timing of the captions to the audio. will be there soon.
Thanks!:) this one was scripted tbh
@@armchairsaurus okay, scripted but not re-edited.
Would you nots say ''Ring Archer armour'' is just a form of chainmail added to strategic parts of a gambeson?
I don't know if you actually use that longbow or if it is just for video.
Just know that after loosing about the fourth arrow without using a bracer starts to give so much pain and discomfort that your performance/aim/range and damage/ draw strength does suffer/diminish.
Thus bracer should get 5/5 in my book.
Fun video as always.
The name "Ring archer armour" ist not really specific so I was going by the icon instead. And the icon doesnt show mail.
Its not my bow. Its my father's. I dont use it regularly but I had no issue with string snap, even without the bracer. I guess it depends a lot on ones anatomy
I must somewhat object your rating for the blast furnace. A blast furnace creates pig iron, not cast iron. Pig iron is the starting product to either create simple alloys like cast iron or use more advanced methods to create steel. And it is compared to the other techs (forging and casting) the more advanced process still used today make pig iron out of iron ore and coke as a starting point in modern steel production.
Also a note on the japanse steel and folding, The japanese had NO blastfurncae tech and their local iron ore was heavily mixed with sands. So to create actually usable steel they got inventive with their tech.
I would give the bast furnace a 5/5
Ok then I misunderstood sth when looking up blast furnace
Damascus steel would have been an interesting tech to have instead of casting
it kind of is in the game. Wootz steel (dravidians) is technically almost the same Damascus steel. Just from a different region
very interesting to see the evolution of armor starting at 9:46. What book is that from?
book is mentioned in the video description
7:52
Really? I read it was the opposite. The development and perfection of the blast furnace allowed for European iron that's far purer than you could achieve with folding. This combined with the development of tempering allowed for the very advanced swords of the late middle ages such as the greatsword and rapier.
The blast furnace indeed makes cast iron but that's not a problem as cast iron turns into steel during the forging process via decarbonization. Tempering also allowed for usable steels with a higher carbon content than before.
Many like to overly praise Japanese swords but they are technologically inferior to their European counterparts due to the Japanese not having the technology to purify iron and never quite mastering effective tempering. That's why Japanese katana's are noticable shorter than German kriegsmesser even though they are functionally the same. The katana is thicker to not bend while the German kriegsmesser is made of spring steel that is well purified so it can get away with being thinner without becoming too weak.
Blast furnace make higher quality iron. But if you simply cast that (and the order of techs implies that - since cast iron is closer to blast furnace than forging is), you will not get a great sword. As you said, it still has to be forged. So the key process is still the forging.
But yeah, a blast furnace produces better quality starting material for the forging - This is why it is better rated than the Cast Iron tech.
fully agree that Japanese blades are over-romanticised
@@armchairsaurus But I do think the final attack upgrade should have been tempering. The development of tempering was a major breakthrough in metalurgy.
Excellent video. Games and movies depicting reality wrong should be called on and corrected.
Gambisons huh 11
yup
How about do the University techs next?
its on the list, but I think ill prioritize Unique Units first. Its somehow more fun for me
Okay.
On the topic of ring armor, apparently the rings were somehow sewn into the foundation garment.
Dunno why someone would think it’s a good idea to wear it when chain mail would’ve probably been more practical
Hübsch 🥰
Unimpressive. Very naughty.
But isn't forging appearing too late in history to be accurate? I think AoE2 starts in the 300's-400's?
at this time forging was already in use
Ring armor did exist, although it was made of flat rings and wasn't exactly common. It was a bit of a downgrade from scale and chainmail, so it makes little sense to put it above a brigantine, and it doesn't really align in terms of history, since ring armor was used mainly in high middle ages before brigantines.
Often it is hard to tell with art sources if the depicted armor is chainmail or ring armor, and we don't have any clear archeological source. Depictions like this 4.bp.blogspot.com/-NDz7HQX5kgw/Ul5Y5By7zuI/AAAAAAAALis/NIoaYOH9umE/s1600/15077OP24079.jpg make a clear difference between chainmail and ring armor.
Dear Giantotter, thanks for the contribution. Cool insight. I wouldn't expect that a water-dwelling animal is so well versed with medieval armor.
I didnt know of depictions of ring armor. Mea Culpa. However, even with the depiction that you linked, the tech wouldnt score higher because the armor depicted on the icon still is nonsense, if you ask me:)
My statement "It didn't exist" was referring to the icon and meant "armor as depicted here, didnt exist". Of course at some point in history people will have tried all sorts of armor. Thats why for me it is an important criterion, whether the armor is somewhat common (which, as you said, ring armor isn't).