Unveiling Mormon Secrets with Dr. John Dehlin - Part 1
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- Опубликовано: 5 июн 2024
- Welcome to the Cross Examiner Podcast, the Internet's courtroom in the case of rationality versus religion. Here, our host uses his experience as both an attorney and an atheist to put religion on trial. We solemnly swear that it is the most informative, educational, and entertaining jury duty you will ever do.
In today's episode, our host delves into the fascinating and complex history of the Mormon church with special guest Dr. John Dehlin, host of the Mormon Stories podcast. ( / @mormonstories )
Together, they explore the origins of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the controversial practices of its founder Joseph Smith, and the church's ongoing efforts to manage its narrative.
Our host and Dr. Dehlin discuss the psychological mechanisms that make people susceptible to religious claims, the role of authority and peer pressure in maintaining belief, and the ethical implications of withholding information from followers. This episode is packed with insights into how powerful institutions use misinformation to control and influence their members.
This is part one of a two-part series, so stay tuned for the continuation of this enlightening and thought-provoking conversation.
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NOTE: @1:14:30 I observe that the curse of Ham is from Genesis. I assert that this curse was depicted as dark skin. To be clear, the Bible does not say this curse was dark skin. However, since the Dark Ages, large numbers of white Christians have interpreted this to be the case. In researching this issue, I discovered that my theory about where Joseph Smith got his racist theology was correct: It was from the curse of Ham.
From Wikipedia:
"In 1835, Joseph Smith...published a work which was titled the "Book of Abraham." It explicitly states that an Egyptian king who is referred to by the name of Pharaoh was a descendant of Ham and the Canaanites, who were black, that Noah had cursed his lineage so they did not have the right to the priesthood, and that all Egyptians descended from him.
It was later considered scripture by the LDS Church...[and]...it later became the foundation of church policy with regard to the priesthood ban. The 2002 edition of the Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual points to Abraham 1:21-27 as the reason why black men were not given the priesthood until 1978. In 1836, Smith taught that the curse of Ham came from God, and stated that blacks were cursed with servitude....
After Smith's 1844 death, Brigham Young became his most popular successor during the succession crisis. Young maintained that Black Africans were under the curse of Ham and he also maintained that those who tried to abolish slavery were going against the decrees of God, although the day would come when the curse would be nullified through the saving powers of Jesus Christ. In addition, based on his interpretation of the Book of Abraham, Young believed that, as a result of this curse, negroes were banned from the Mormon priesthood.
In 1978, LDS Church president Spencer W. Kimball said that he received a revelation that extended the priesthood to all worthy male members of the church without regard to race or color. In 2013, the LDS Church denounced the curse of Ham explanation for the withholding of the priesthood from black Africans."
Correction:
1:14:24 See pinned comment for clarification.
Part 2: • Unveiling Mormon Secre...
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NOTE: @1:14:30 I observe that the curse of Ham is from Genesis. I assert that this curse was depicted as dark skin. To be clear, the Bible does not say this curse was dark skin. However, since the Dark Ages, large numbers of white Christians have interpreted this to be the case. In researching this issue, I discovered that my theory about where Joseph Smith got his racist theology was correct: It was from the curse of Ham.
From Wikipedia:
"In 1835, Joseph Smith...published a work which was titled the "Book of Abraham." It explicitly states that an Egyptian king who is referred to by the name of Pharaoh was a descendant of Ham and the Canaanites, who were black, that Noah had cursed his lineage so they did not have the right to the priesthood, and that all Egyptians descended from him.
It was later considered scripture by the LDS Church...[and]...it later became the foundation of church policy with regard to the priesthood ban. The 2002 edition of the Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual points to Abraham 1: 21-27 as the reason why black men were not given the priesthood until 1978. In 1836, Smith taught that the curse of Ham came from God, and stated that blacks were cursed with servitude....
After Smith's 1844 death, Brigham Young became his most popular successor during the succession crisis. Young maintained that Black Africans were under the curse of Ham and he also maintained that those who tried to abolish slavery were going against the decrees of God, although the day would come when the curse would be nullified through the saving powers of Jesus Christ. In addition, based on his interpretation of the Book of Abraham, Young believed that, as a result of this curse, negroes were banned from the Mormon priesthood.
In 1978, LDS Church president Spencer W. Kimball said that he received a revelation that extended the priesthood to all worthy male members of the church without regard to race or color. In 2013, the LDS Church denounced the curse of Ham explanation for the withholding of the priesthood from black Africans."
what color skin do you imagine the people in the setting of Genesis had?
C b🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉😂77❤😊😊j 20:59 😊😊😢😮😮77🎉🎉🎉😊😢😢😅😮😢😮😮😢😮🎉😢😊in IF 😮😢😮😢😊🎉🎉😮😮😮😮😮😮was 😅8😢😮😅6😅5😅😮67😮😢die 😢😅😢😮😮😅😅😮😮😅😮 25:24 25:25 😢😅 25:25 😮😮😮😮😢😅😢😢😢😅😢😅🎉😅die 😅gut 😮😢😢😢😢😢die 😢sind 😅🎉😢😢😢😅😅😅😢😅😮😅😮😮an open 😅😢😢😊😢die 😢😅😢in 😅van 😮 29:43 😢😮😢😢😢😮😢6😢in IF 😅😅die 😅😮😢😅😅was delicious 😮in 😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😮😅😮😮😮😮😢😢🎉😅😢😅😢😮😮so 😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😢😮so bring 😢😢😢😢😢😢😢😢😢😮😮😢😢😮😮😮😮😮so 😅😅🎉😅🎉😅😅😮😢😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😢😮😢😢😮😮😮😢😮😢😅😊😊😮😊😊😮😮😊😊🎉😢😢die 37:03 😮😮🎉😮😮😊🎉in 😮😮😅😊😊 37:26 37:27 😅 37:28 😅 37:33 37:33 😊😅😅😅😅😊😮😊😢😊😊😊😢🎉😊😊😢😊😢😢😊😢😅😮😢😮😢😮😢😢😢😢😅😮😮🎉🎉😢🎉🎉die in 😊😅da 😢😊in 38:31 😅den 😊was 😊the 😮😢 38:35 😮🎉🎉die 8😮 38:40 😊 38:42 🎉😊 38:44 😊😊 38:45 😮😊😮 38:49 38:51 🎉 38:54 😮🎉😮😊🎉😊🎉😅😊😊🎉😂😂6😂😂 40:03 😢😢😮in 😊🎉😮😮😢😅😅😮😮😢😮😮😅😅😅😅😅😮😮😅😅😅😮i😢😮😅😮😅n😊😮😢😅😊😮😮😮 40:47 😅😊😅😅😊an open 😊😊😊😊😊😊😅an open 😊😊 41:41 😊😊😢😅 41:44 41:45 😊😊😮😢so 😮😮🎉😢55😢😮😢😅😮 42:18 😢😅😮in 😮 42:20 in 😢 42:20 😢 42:20 you're 😅😊😊😮 42:22 😮😮😊😅😅😮😮😅 42:30 in 😮😢 42:30 😮😮🎉 42:32 😢😮😮😢 42:34 die 😮gut 😮😮😮gut 😢42:42 😢😢😢😊😮in 😢😢😢😮😮😮😮😮😊😮😮😊😢😊 43:06 😮 43:06 😮 43:07 43:07 43:08 43:09 die 😮😢in 😢😮 43:11 😊😮 43:13 😮😢😮😢😮in 43:18 😮😮in IF 😮😮😢😢😢😢🎉🎉😮😢😮😮😢😮😮😮😮😢😮😢😊😅😊😢7😅😅 40:36😮 43:27 😮die 43:28 😮😢🎉😮😮😢🎉 43:30 😮😮😮in 🎉😢😢😢😮😮😮😢😢😊😅😮😊😢😮 43:35 😢die 😊😮 43:36 😢😊😮6😅😊😢7😢😢😊😮😮😢 43:36 😢 43:38 was 😊😊😅😮 43:44 😢😢😮😅😮😮😮😮😊🎉😢😮😮 43:49 😮 43:49 😮😮 43:50 😢😅😮 43:51 😮😢😮😮😊😢😮😮😢😅😢😢😮😢😮😅😮😅 44:04 😊 44:05 😅😢😢😢😅😮😊😊😢😮😮😮an 🎉😊 44:10 😢44:02 😅😅 44:10 44:12 44:12 😢😮😮😢 44:15 😢😅😮 44:19 😢😢😊 44:19 😢😮😢😢😮😢😢😮 44:21 😢😮😮😢😢😮😢😢😢 44:24 an 😢😮🎉🎉😢😮😊😢😮😢😢😢😢😢😮😢🎉 44:34 😮in 🎉😢😢😮😢😢😮😮😢😮😮😢😮😮😢 44:38 😢 44:39 😮😮😢😢 44:41 😮 44:41 😮🎉 44:43 😮😮😮🎉 44:45 😮die 😮😮😮gut 😮😮😮😮😢😮😮😮😢😮😮 44:50 😮😢😮🎉😮😮 44:51 😮 44:51 😮😢🎉😮😮😮😮😮 44:54 😮😢😢😢die 😢🎉😢 44:57 😮🎉 44:57 44:59 😮 45:00 😮😢🎉😮🎉😮😢😢 45:die 😢 45:07 45:08 😮 45:08 😮 45:09 🎉😮 45:10 😢in 🎉 45:11 45:11 😮😢😢🎉die 🎉😢😮🎉🎉🎉🎉😢in 😢😢😢😊😢😊😊😢an oral 😢so 😮😢😢😊🎉😢😮in 😢😮 45:38 😢😅😢😮😊😊😊😊 45:39 😮😮😮die 😢 45:41 😢😮in 😢😢😢😢😢😢😮7😮😮😢😢😢😮so 😮6🎉😢in 😢🎉😮😊😢😢🎉🎉😢so 7😢7😮🎉7😢😢😮😢😢😢🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉😢7😢😢🎉77🎉😮😮🎉7😮🎉7🎉in 🎉🎉🎉😮7🎉🎉🎉7🎉😢😢78😢🎉⁷😢7🎉😢7🎉😢😢😢🎉🎉😮😢😮😮😢😢😢😢😮😢😮😢😢😢😮😢 46:57 😮 46:57 die 😮😮gut oder 😮 46:58 😮😢😢😮😮 45:05 😢🎉😢😮😢😮😢😢😮😊😅😮😢😮😢😢⁷😢😢😢😢77 47:17 😮🎉🎉in 😮😢🎉🎉7😮😮😮die 😮of 😢😮😮😅😊😊😢😊😢😅😮😢 47:36 😮😅😮😊😊😊😊😅😊😅😊😊😊😊😅😅😅 47:40 😅😊😊😮😅😊😅😊 47:43 😮😅😊😢😢😢 47:47 😊die 47:48 gut 😊 47:48 47:48 47:49 47:49 den 47:50 den 😊😮 47:50 😊😊😊😊so 😅bring in compression 😢😢😢6th 6😢😊🎉😊 47:59 😮😢 48:00 😢😊😊 48:01 in 😮😮😮 48:02 😊😊 48:02 die 😮😅😢😅 47:39 😮😅😮 48:04 😊😢🎉😮😊😊 48:07 😮😮😊 48:10 😊😮😅😢😢😢 48:11 48:11 😮😢😊😊 48:11 😮😮😮😢😢😢😮 48:13 48:13 🎉😮 48:13 😢😮😮😊 48:1🎉😅😮😢 48:14 48:14 😮😮😮😮1st 😮😮😮 48:20 😢😮😢 48:22 😊😊 48:22 😊😅 48:25 😊😮 48:26 😊😊😊 48:28 48:28 😮😢😢😢😊 48:30 😮😮😅😊😢in 48:36 compression 😢 48:38 😢7😢🎉😢🎉😢😢😮😢😮😢😮😢😊 48:47 😮😅😢😊😅😅😊😢😢 48:49 😊 48:49 😅4th😊😢😢😢😢😊😮😢 48:57 😢😢😢😢🎉😢😮😮😮😢😮😮😮😢😢😢😢 49:01 😮😢😊😊😊 49:03 😊😊😊😊 49:06 😊😊 49:05😊😢😊 49:07 😮😢 49:08 😅 :30 😊 48:3😊😊😢7😢 49:13 😮 49:13 😮😮😮 49:14 1st 😮 49:14 😮🎉😮😅in 😮 49:16 🎉IF 😢😮😮😮😮😮6😢😮😮 49:22 😢😮in 😊😢 49:25 😢😢😮😮😢😢😢😮😮😮😮😮😮😊😊😮 49:32 😅😊😊😢 49:34 😮die in 😊😊😢 49:37 😊 49:38 49:38 😮😢 49:39 😮😮😢😊 49:40 49:40 😢😮 49:40 😊 49:42 49:42 😊 49:44 😢😢🎉4th😊😢🎉😢🎉😢😢😊😢😢😊😊😢in😢😢den😊😢😢den😢 50:00 😊🎉😢😊😢s😊 50:35 😮o😊 50:08 😢😊😢😊: 50:26 so😊😢😢😮 50:42 😢😊😢6😢😮😢 😢😅😊😢😢😢3😢😮😢😢😮😊7😢😢😢 50:59 50:59 😊😅😊😅😊 50:09😮😅😢😢😢 51:04 51:0😮😊😢😢😢😮😊😊😢😢4th 😊😊 51:12 😊 51:12 😢😢😊😢😊 50:09 😊😅 50:23 😊2nd 😊😮😊😢😢😊😮😢 51:14 😮😢die 51:15 😢 51:17 😊in 51:19 😊😢😊😊😮in😢😮 51:21 😢😢😢 51:24 😊😮😢 51:26 😮😢 51:27 51:27 😢😢 51:31 😢😢 51:31 😢😢 51:32 😢😮😮😢😢😢😢😮 51:35 😊😊😮😢😢😢 51:36 😢😮😮😮 51:37 😮😮😢😮😊😢😢die 51:39 😊😢 51:39 😮😢😢😅😢 51:41 😢😮😮😮😢😊😢😮😢😮😮😢😢😊😮 51:45 51:45 😮😢🎉😢😢😢😮😊😢 51:49 😊😢😊 51:50 😅😮😊😢😮😢😮an 😢open 😮 51:51 😊😅😮so 😊😊😮😮😅😮😢in 😢😊😊😊😮😮 51:55 😊😊 51:55 😮😮 51:55 😊 51:56 😊😮😮 51:57 😮 51:57 😮 51:57 😊😊 51:58 😮😊🎉😮😮😊😢😅😮😊😊😮 52:02 52:02 😮😅 52:02 😢🎉😊 52:06 😊 52:06 🎉😮😢😮😢😊😮😢😮😢😢😢😢😮😢😢😢😮😮😮😊 52:10 an 7😢😊x22report😮😮😮😢😮in6😢🎉:11 😅😮😢 52:51 in 😢😢7🎉😅😢😅😊😊😢😅die 🎉😊🎉🎉😢😢🎉🎉🎉😢😢🎉🎉😊🎉🎉🎉😅😅66😅😮😅was 66😅😅😊666😊was so 😢in 😢🎉😢😅😅die 😅🎉was ⁶😅😊was delicious 😅🎉🎉🎉🎉😢😅😅so bring 😅😅😮😅😅😢😅in 😅😢😢😢😢😊an 😢😊😮😮😢😊 52:51 😊 52:51 😊🎉😊😊😅 52:15 😊😢7😢 52:51 6 52:17 😊😊😢😢😅😢😢 52:20 😅😢😅😊 52:22 😅😮😢😅😅😮😢😢😢😮😢😅😮😮😢😮😮😮🎉 52:27 52:29 5😢😅😮😊😅😊😮 52:35 😅😮😅😢😮😢😮😮🎉😂🎉🎉🎉 52:34 😅😅😮😢😢 52:33 😮😅😮😮😢😢😊😮😢 51:30 😢 51:30 😊 50:15 den 😢😢😢😊😊😊😮😢😊😊😢😮😢😊😅😢 49:31 😢😊 😮 48:31 😊die 48:31 😊😢😢😊😊😮😊😢1 😮😮 47:08 😢😮 45:06 😮😮🎉
Huh?
Well it is not a Mormon exclusive interpretation that the dark skin is a "curse",but it is not in any way implied in the bible.
Yea I agree that he was a liar and wanted to get a personal benefit of it all,but IAM saying why it would sound appealing to people.I also find it strange how so many people still to this day believe the book of Mormon and all that stuff especially because historically it's ridiculous
The thing that did it for me was the hundreds of billions of dollars, (hidden from the masses until fairly recently), being amassed and the pittance, by comparison, being spent on "charity." This is no church......this is a very wealthy corporation hiding behind a disingenuous religious facade.....
As an ex Mormon for 17 yrs I couldn’t have said it better
EXACTLY!!!
Yes a thousand times yes.
Ditto to your comment 100 times over!!! 🙌🙌
I’m sure you would love it if it was an organization or religion that you agreed with.
Love that you were able to get DrJD to do an interview instead of being the one to ask the questions!
He was very generous with his time and a delight to work with!
John Dehlin is one of my favourite humans. I'm a "Nevermo", a person who grew up in a fundamental Christian denomination. I watch Mormon Stories "religiously". The idea of caring about what is true, what comports with reality, is important to John. Caring about "informed consent" is such an important overarching theme. This interview is excellent. Thank you, Cross Examiner, for honing in on the main points. John is logical and ethical and empathic. And also passionate!
As lifetime Mormon- seminary & BYU grad, married in Mormon temple, did not know polygamy is set to resume, until I turned 50! WTH?! GTH! No thank you!!
Same life story. I completely agree!!!
its not set to resume your lying
Commenting now as a historian who is just learning the basics about the LDS church, it just amazes me how any really good college curriculum in 19thc US history (not at BYU) would just unravel all this so naturally. The whole church is so obviously a product of VERY specific historical circumstances that passed everywhere else but got bizarrely frozen in this one tiny population of his followers who are still amazingly taught to believe that those ideas from that one odd moment are actually universal, no matter how many times they've been proven wrong.... It's amazing. But I also think an important lesson to take from it is how the extreme persecution of early Mormons (and many other religious minorities) fostered this kind of defensive, insular, defiant culture that carries a (now delusional) persecution complex to this day. Everyone could use a much richer education on the Great Awakening period in the first half of the 19thc. Too much of history is taught as wars and politics and religious upheavals can be left out depending on the teacher.
I'm a dedicated Mormon Stories listener and now I have a new great podcast to listen to. I'm 5 episodes deep. So glad I found it! Thanks, Cross Examiner.
Thank you so much!
I'm an exmormon, an atheist, and an absolutely firm believer in the principle of the separation of church and state. What a great crossover episode! Thanks for the great content!
Thank you so much!
Gen Z will never understand the crazy time period that was Y2K
I am so impressed! Cross examiner is so intelligent and informed! Great podcast
Thank you for your kind words!
their idiots
They're*
Excellent conversation, thank you both.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Don't forget that they currently believe polygamy exists in heaven! In fact, if a faithful man becomes a widower he may get the full "temple marriage" to a new wife, and thus have both wives in the next life. This does not occur in reverse though. A woman can only have one heaven husband.
What if the new wife was a widow and was previously married in the temple? Her original husband has to share her?!
@@gowanderlustwithme in this case, she either remains sealed to her first deceased husband, or she has the first sealing canceled and has a new sealing done with her new husband. So, not the same process for women.
Me, same a John, descendant of polygamy, lifelong member of Mormon church, I found out at age 43 that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy!!
Great episode. John is great on either side of the interview. Just as enthusiastic but less pressure.
I'm a never mo who watches Mormon stories faithfully. John has helped me through the 2020's when people around me started believing such bull shit. And feel so superior for it. It's all demonstrably false, but they just can't hold space for it. It's crazy making! Watching Mormon stories helped me understand everything in a healthy loving way.
I'm a regular MS listener, but even though I already know John's history, as well as real church history, it was very interesting to see and hear the crazy beliefs (that I 100% bought into), being shared so openly with a never-mo, and to hear/see your reactions. John might need to consider doing more episodes like this (never-mo) or people like Eve (current Mormon willing to hear truths), because its so cringe to hear these things said outside the lds bubble.
I testify that your words are true. 👍
I'm glad you saw Eve's story. She was so raw. She's got follow-up interviews on Cara's channel
I am a Mormon Stories regular viewer. I have LDS converts in my family. I’m sure that might be why there are so many “ never LDS “ viewers . We want to understand the LDS culture because it is so bizarre. Thank you John Dehlin
A lot of us never mormons also have come out of other religions and find MS helpful in processing our past and the psychology of high control religion.
Thanks for yoru observation. Yes, I am fascinated by the mix of strangely nice people, the bizarre claims, and the history of fraud and deception.
I agree, I’m a never LDS, but have family in a high demand Cult. It’s helped me understand high demand organizations better. Also, I just have curiosity. I lived in Boise for a couple years, worked with mainly LDS but couldn’t get any real info about what really happened in the Temple.
@@Stepheub what happens in the temple is top secret, or “sacred” so no LDS will talk about it. You can watch the ceremonies on RUclips. Someone snuck in and filmed them. Newnamenoah I believe. Basically you make vows of loyalty to the church and learn secret handshakes, like the masons. It’s a lot less weird now than in 1983 when I went through it. They taken out some of the creepier parts, but the whole thing is very cult-like.
John what are your beliefs now?
And at Catholic school we went to Mass every morning.
Looking forward to seeing Part 2!
Part 2 is up! 😊
Always find John D interesting.
I'm a long time Mormon Stories (and pretty much every other ex-Mormon channel) viewer and your channel seem right up my alley. Just subscribed and I'm excited to see where you go with this channel.
Thanks for your kind words!
It's fascinating hearing all of this from your perspective. I left the church roughly three years ago.
I didn't know Joseph Smith Sr was an accomplice in Smith's treasure scams.
everything you talked about with the missionary lessons is SO legit. They teach you the "basic" (6th grade level version), and once you decide to get baptized- afterwards they tell you about all of "nitty gritty" since you're "in". VERY misleading and definitely takes away from the informed consent..
wow this is so amazing and I'm loving to hear, John, your take and when you said "love bombing" that's exactly right I am a sixth generation Mormon my great great grandfather settled the camas Valley and your speaking truth to me that I wish I'd known when I was young
i am not current or former LDS, but finding John and Margie has been great. Absolutely one of my favorite RUclipsrs. I was in a high demand religion and it crossed paths w LDS but that's a long story
Thanks for watching!
I’m a never-Mormon regular viewer of Mormon Stories. It has helped me get rid of the last parts of my mainstream Protestant beliefs. My daughter did an internship with Americans United for Separation of Church and State, and it is a critical issue!
The word “separation” is not used in the Bill of Rights, nor is the implication of it. It states that government shall not establish a religion, nor shall it interfere with the practice of religion.
What's your point? The phrase "fair trial" is not in the Constitution, yet we all agree that one of the effects of the Constitution is to guarantee everyone a "fair trial." This is the case for many phrases we use to describe how the Constitution operates.
If your point is literally that he phrase "separation of church and state" is not in the Constitution, no one says that it is. If you are trying to argue that the intent and effect of the Establishment Clause and the Free Exercise Clause is not one of "separation of church and state" then you are simply wrong.
Return missionary and Eagle Scout here. I left the church in 2006. I did literally feel warm fuzzies hearing the real real history of Joseph Smith here!!
This is a great interview. I have a lot of respect for what John Dehlin has done to shed light on the LDS Church. I'm a 5th generation Mormon. I left the church after serving a mission for the church and realizing that the church is obviously false.
Thank you for your kind words!
What is so obvious that brings someone to this conclusion?
@@daleclark7127 Did you even watch this video? Listen to what John says and say it isn't obviously bullshit.
@@daleclark7127 failed "translations," polygamy, racism, homophobia... it's a long list
@@nathanbigler hmm? Those are more opinions derived out of different and nuanced perspectives. Sorry, not buying those type of so called “obvious” attributes in dispelling if the Restoration has truthful validity. Sounds like expected rhetoric coming out of the anti-Mormon tropes that are used. No, give me the evidences that are the smoking gun that the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith are fraudulent. I’m sure this will be easy since I could name a few possibilities that are truly plausible. BTW, I’m not attempting to say there are not reasons to disbelieve. But, again, mistranslations of what? And the use of racism and homophobia are not evidences of anything but bias and differences in how we perceive anything.
I think you and Steven Hassan could be a great duo. He has been working to cut away at many cults' undue influence through legal means (I think primarily by using human trafficking laws). I bet he'd have a lot of valuable information from the understanding of cults and the influence they can have on politics, especially US policies and laws.
Thank for the tip. I will look into it!
@@thecrossexaminer6665 I agree that Steven Hassan is someone who knows a great deal. He's a recovered (former) cult member.
Awesome conversation. I found out in 2003 about Joseph Smiths polygamy. I was 42. I accidentally came upon it on the internet. I was flabbergasted and my shelf was very heavy for a few years- then the shelf broke.
I was 49 in 2023 when I found out Joseph Smith was a polygamist. As a teen I was taught JS polygamy was a lie.
@@amyjo1301me too.
Really enjoyed the episode.
Thank you for your kind words!
Nope I was never taught Joseph Smith practiced polygamy with 14 year-old-girls. But I was aware that Mormon church was all about polygamy because my great grandma was from a polygamist family and there were many "polygamist" families all around us that I knew of. I was living inside an open secret and thought nothing about it..until I moved out of state and saw how Mormons were perceived in the outside world.
But see the thing is people's perceptions of Mormons are spot on. Most Mormons are not practicing polygamy in this life..but when they die they will practice polygamy in the after-life because that is what Mormon doctrine teaches..always look under the covers of your own doctrine...Mormons believe in some outlandish bull poo..lol..yes they believe they will be the rulers of their own planets..if they are worthy enough.
I am also a huge fan of Mormon Stories Podcast and The Cross Examiner. What a great show.
Thank you so much!
Never Mormon, addicted to Mormon Stories. I'm very glad to find your channel. I subbed instantly--law + religion, right up my alley!
Thanks so much!
When does part 2 drop? Absolutely love this episode. Long time listener of Mormon Stories. My faith crisis began on my mission in 2003. The church really does its best to hide its history from members and potential members.
Targeting Monday!
Really glad to discover your podcast through this interview! I too am an atheist concerned (more like terrified) of the rise of Christian nationalism. It feels like my personal worst nightmare come to life. I was raised among an extremely conservative Calvinist Midwestern enclave where Mormons were the nice, laid-back minority! I ran away as soon as I could and eventually got a PhD in European history only to see the people I left behind turn full fascist while I was gone.
Good Grief! Where is this extremely conservative Calvinist enclave?
Funny joke at the beginning. I'm a Never Mormon who also has followed Mormon Stories for quite a while now. I'm also a half-sister, having studied Poli-Sci, and then off to law school I went (against every person who warned me not to). I'm older that the 2 of you, I think, so I didn't go tech after. I went into writing and art. Loved how informative this interview was! I'm a new subscriber to The Cross Examiner. Off to hear the 2nd half.
Thanks for the kind words!
I'm postmo and queer and I left in 1991. But I've recently needed podcasts like John's and Mormon Discussions and Nuancehoe and Mormon News Roundup. I knew a lot about Joseph Smith's BS, about Kolob and having your own planet, but I still have some learning to do and shelves to break. This onslaught of Christian Nationalism is also freaking me out. Freedom doesn't just belong to them.
Agree 100%
I eagerly await every Mormon Stories episode!
Me, too! I recommend you subscribe to this channel to be reminded when Part 2 of this discussion goes live!
@@thecrossexaminer6665 I did. Thank you.
Watching Eve's story and follow ups on Nuancehoe had been so interesting.
I loved this!
Thank you so much!
I’m curious why the revelation of the BOM wasn’t in a Native American language rather than Egyptian. By the way the Indian Removal Act was in 1830, the beginning of the Trail of Tears for the Five Civilized Tribes from the east to Indian Territory what is now Oklahoma. Interesting. Sequoyah developed the written Cherokee syllabary in 1821 so there was a written Native language available if he’d used his head.
Things that make you go, "Hmmmmm."
The fact Joseph Smith claimed the ancient Americans wrote their religious history in the script of "Reformed Egyptian" is just one more evidence of his being a Con Artist. Undoubtedly, Smith chose Egyptian because at the time most people understood it was a language that couldn't be read. Thus, only Smith could "translate" these records.
Great episode!!
Thanks so much!
I’m a never-mo who has been watching MS for years. I’m a cult watcher and it aided my faith transition from a mild Methodist to an atheist. I don’t know any LDS people.
Man a Mormon stories colab that is only an hour. I am used to the 4 hour deep dives. Also check out his and mikes play list on Mormon stories to dig into the doctrine and the truth claims.
To be fair...this is only Part 1! Part 2 drops soon!
@@thecrossexaminer6665 sorry that was meant to be tongue and cheek. Excited for the next episode
Watches the second part. Love the content subscribed
Thanks so much!
Good talk!
I''m so happy to find this channel
Thanks for the kind words!
I was once married to a German. I heard taxes and tithing are or were one in the same! Not sure it's true but I wonder what's coming.
Being exalted and getting your own planet doesn't seem to work with the "Families are Forever' motto... Successful parenting would mean each son was exalted and ruled over his own and separate planet, right?
It does seem confusing, doesn't it?
This was so good!!!! I enjoyed, and thank you both for sharing your critical thinking skills and factual information. I wish I would have known that his many years ago. The lds religion literally has wrought much destruction on my family and I’m a proud ex mo that has been shunned and scapegoated by my biological mo mo family. It has been a very painful, sad, unkind journey away from this cult I was raised in. I’m a better person now that I’m out of that bs religion. Thank you for this information.
Thank you for your kind words!
That was great. Glad to find this channel via John and MS.
Thanks for coming!!
Ex-Mormon here. My family goes back to the earliest days of Mormonism, and I am a descendant from Mormon pioneer "royalty". I will confirm everything John Dehlin is saying, 100%.
Hello Graham, I have just checked the book of genesis in the old testament and the curse of Ham mentions that the descendants his son Canaan will be enslaved. It doesn't curse him with dark skin. It is the mormon church that interprets it as dark skin, thereby justifying the enslavement of people of African descent. I know I'm being pedantic but I feel it's important to gets the facts straight.
Thank you for doing this episode. And thanks for the work you both do.
Did you read the notes in my description? I address this.
help please. How do you spell the site referenced - sounds like Nuance oh.
Nuancehoe
Here's the video about Eve we discuss: ruclips.net/video/gl50qEdRABQ/видео.html&ab_channel=nuancehoe
@@thecrossexaminer6665 Thanks. I was wanting that info also!
The joke I always said to my buddy and some others in the church was, “ I’m gonna be the prophet and bring polygamy back” I k ee they practiced polygamy the whole time I was a Mormon. That’s weird that you never knew that John? But they always rationalized it by saying it was to replenish the earth and populate with members
Everyone has their own journey.
@@thecrossexaminer6665 true, but here in the Sacramento Cali area, it was well known the early Mormons were polygamists and were well aware Joseph smith was. I mean, there are so many smiths!!!
The bible says god put a curse upon Ham, no where does it say the curse has anything to do with skin color. This theory/idea came about in religious circles maybe post 1500
Check the notes and clarification I posted in the episode details.
I was taught about Joseph Smith’s polygamy in seminary in the 1990-1991 school year. Not the exact number of wives, and not polyandry, but I was taught that JS married and consummated marriages with multiple women besides Emma, in order to set the needed example for when polygamy became more widespread under Brigham Young. I think my teacher must have been the only one 🤣. Between that and the Book of Abraham, I didn’t have much of a shelf left after that. We were 100% taught that polygamy was going to come back before the end of times. And yeah, we were taught that we would get our own planets. The boys, anyway.
I believe I learned of Joseph Smith’s polygamy from a seminary teacher in 1970 when I was in 9th grade. I was raised in Provo but my family was not active Mormon. I only took seminary to get an easy elective credit. A few years ago my husband, who was raised by very devout LDS parents was shocked to hear about Joseph Smith’s polygamy. I thought it was common knowledge and was surprised he didn’t know.
Lol seminary as an ez credit was impossible for me even as born as a mormon, i just couldnt!! I ditched it so much my mom got called in with me and i FINALLY was given the opportunity to give my consent!! 😊 to which i said Nope this isnt for me!! 60 now and happy to have it official an exmo 😁@robinsaxophone232
I'm never in. I had brushes as a teen.
30:07 Artest thou shitting me?! I never realized this! Lol
Right?
100+ subscribers added in less than a day!🎉🎉🎉
Great intro!
I'm glad you like it
@@thecrossexaminer6665 All respect to you… a couple bits of feedback. I noticed how well this video did for you compared to your normal video. Maybe you should do more videos where you interview other hosts. I think lots of hosts would like a format where they can tell their audience about themselves in an interview format. Also… snd this may be out of bounds… but i really dislike your hair style. I would suggest you go to an expensive hair stylist… get a new hair style from a real pro.
Thanks! It's been a while since my last haircut, so....good to know!
I watched the mormon stories version. One thing I'd like to say about Joseph Smith's "tall tale" about native Americans being ancient jews and what not. It sounds ridiculous to us in the modern era, if we have any high school understanding of where First Nations peoples originate from. But this notion was not only perfectly believable at the time but the prominent Judeo-Christian worldview among settlers in 16th to 19th century America. I've done some research om this matter. Now not everyone believed Joseph Smith and many in upstate new york who were critical of him thought he was just inventing a native american pseudo bible based on the moundbuilder myth. That's what they said in his day and the critiscm has not changed with plenty of examination. My point is nothing comes out of a vacuum and it's all trackable.
John called me out, I saw this and thought: “Ooh, John being interviewed.” 🍿 *click*
Great video, enthusiastic sub! (Nevermo Atheist & several-hundred-hours deep, Mormon Stories viewer. 😅)
Thanks for your kind words!
I , like you am an atheist that dislikes the concept of a white Christian nation. I believe in separation of church and state and donate to the the ffrf I am a retired college professor and an exmormon. John is a respected acquaintance of mine, so I was happy when I came across your podcast. I share myself academically and religiously on a podcast with The Backyard Professor, episode 125: Comparison of the Roman and "Lehite" civilization, Supposedly Contemporaneous. ("Lehite" refers to the Book of Mormon of Mormon people.)
Great show😊
Glad you enjoyed it
All so taught that black people will be resurrected in heaven but only as SERVANTS!
not true mormon stories is noncense
About that stone and treasure digging....is there any record of Joseph Smith EVER finding anything? I mean was there one time that he did find something so people believed him?
He found a feather and a piece of wood.
Responding to your comment about not being aware of Joseph’s multiple marriages while being a strong LDS member. I’m 68 and raised as a very strong Mormon just a few months ago learned of JosephSmiths polygamy !!!!
Yes, I’m angry!! The church has hid and lied to me for all these years. I am just beginning my journey away from the church.
I'm sorry they did that to you. They appear to have had many victims.
Great episode!
I don’t have enough faith to be an Atheist though.
That's a handy bumper sticker phrase (what is known as a "thought-ending cliche"), but it is obviously an illogical statement. Are you genuinely interested in chatting about that concept? I would love to talk to you to see if we could better understand each other!
So, atheists are more faithful than you? Honestly though, it’s kind of a silly phrase when you actually think about it.
00:00 I always HATED that joke as a believing Mormon! I genuinely thought my fellow Mormons had the integrity not to drink beer whether or not another one was around. I've since learned differently...
Hehe! Thanks for listening!
Why does broccoli always have to take the hit?
My bad!!!
John Dehin was on the Cristian Prince (CP) podcast, and he claimed himself to be a Muslim, in the Muslim religion. Here he is subsiding with an atheist on an atheist podcast. NOW; how crazy is that?
Care to provide a link?
Long live Dataperfect and Wordperfect!
The "Reveal Codes" function in Word Perfect was WAY ahead of its time!
@@thecrossexaminer6665 Oh my, this brings me back. WYSIWYM editors just made you feel smart. I remember having to setup Word to get the old WP shortcuts. Shift-F7 prints... always :)
I’m engaged to an ex Mormon, we’re both atheists and I have always been into atheist and cult/high control religion debunking videos on YT. Love Mormon stories.
I think Joseph was trying to create an authentic American nation
But were any of his claims true?
@@thecrossexaminer6665 Absolutely not, but all nations are somewhat based on miths
I agree, generally, about nation foundations being built on some amount of myth. But even if Smith was looking to create a new nation, he was demanding money from individuals in the process based on what were almost certainly lies. That's just felony level fraud.
I pray that you have Saul to Paul experience. ❤
Well, if God has the abilities that most Christians attribute to Him, then he knows how to convince anyone that He is real. One must ask why he doesn't. (Pro tip: The answer doesn't have anything to do with "free will.")
Where in Genesis does it say Ham's skin was turned dark? I think people have tried to imply that before but I personally have never seen the KJV Bible say black skin is a curse. Please correct me if I'm wrong but Genesis 9:24-25 states, "and Noah awoke from his wine and knew what his younger son had done unto him. And he said cursed Canaan a servant of servant shall he be unto his brethren."
I left the church when I was 12 years old. I was ridiculed by family and neighbors. They called me an antichrist Korihor. If I could figure it out at 12 there's no excuse for my parents and my neighbors. People choose what they want to believe. In order to be a Mormon you have to believe in. Joseph Smith. You have to accept he's a true prophet and he promoted the idea black skin means you didn't pick God in heaven, didn't work hard in 2nd Nephi, and of course the mark of Cain.
Very good point about the curse of Ham. I have clarified my point by adding the following to the video description:
NOTE: @1:14:30 I observe that the curse of Ham is from Genesis. I assert that this curse was depicted as dark skin. To be clear, the Bible does not say this curse was dark skin. However, since the Dark Ages, large numbers of white Christians have interpreted this to be the case. In researching this issue, I discovered that my theory about where Joseph Smith got his racist theology was correct: It was from the curse of Ham.
From Wikipedia:
"In 1835, Joseph Smith...published a work which was titled the "Book of Abraham." It explicitly states that an Egyptian king who is referred to by the name of Pharaoh was a descendant of Ham and the Canaanites, who were black, that Noah had cursed his lineage so they did not have the right to the priesthood, and that all Egyptians descended from him.
It was later considered scripture by the LDS Church...[and]...it later became the foundation of church policy with regard to the priesthood ban. The 2002 edition of the Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual points to Abraham 1:21-27 as the reason why black men were not given the priesthood until 1978. In 1836, Smith taught that the curse of Ham came from God, and stated that blacks were cursed with servitude....
After Smith's 1844 death, Brigham Young became his most popular successor during the succession crisis. Young maintained that Black Africans were under the curse of Ham and he also maintained that those who tried to abolish slavery were going against the decrees of God, although the day would come when the curse would be nullified through the saving powers of Jesus Christ. In addition, based on his interpretation of the Book of Abraham, Young believed that, as a result of this curse, negroes were banned from the Mormon priesthood.
In 1978, LDS Church president Spencer W. Kimball said that he received a revelation that extended the priesthood to all worthy male members of the church without regard to race or color. In 2013, the LDS Church denounced the curse of Ham explanation for the withholding of the priesthood from black Africans."
@@thecrossexaminer6665 And, in fact, "The Curse of Ham" was used by white Southerners (none of them Mormon) as primary defense of slavery in the years before the Civil War, as abolitionism was on the rise. So Joseph Smith was swimming in the intellectual waters of his era.
@gregory you obviously didn't listen to the discussion on why members can "believe" the unbelievable. Doesn't make the church true with so many manipulated believers.
How’s about this one: the Book of Mormon was invented by a Moron and people believed
he had a secret.
Well, that's one way of looking at it!
What saddens me, is that many who extricate themselves from orthodoxy end up losing faith in God completely. I’d love to see you interview William Lane Craig a brilliant apologist. Am also intrigued how so many intelligent educated men - like Dehlin took so long to wake up and question Mormon lunacy?
Thanks for the suggestion! William Lane Craig interesting, but I wouldn't go so far as to call him brilliant. E.g., his writing on the Kalam cosmological argument has several flaws. He seems to be a nice person, though!
Atheist and a Attorney? 😅😂😂😂😂
Care to expand?
Sorry but a kid or baby isn’t going to self reflect thru prayer and get a little better. I haven’t seen your self healer work/stuff but is this all u came up with?
Its sad when all the other non-Mormon-christian-based-believers talk sh*t about mormons
Sorry, but I have no idea what you are talking about. Care to explain?
atheist experience doesn't have 5k viewers anymore lol more like 800 now since their FUBAR with Matt
I joined long after Matt left. I watch his content as well. Just looking at their channel, AXP has over 400k subs and averages 10-20k view per episode and 30k+ when Forest hosts.
The name of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints was not “settled on”. If you believe the history, it was given by direct revelation from Jesus Christ, its head. Doctrine and Covenants 115:4
The biggest obstacle non believers have to get around is revelation. Do we have a source? (Heavenly parents/creators). Do they have an interest in us at all…if yes, where is the communication?
I must admit that your comment is very confusing. Let's take, "If you believe the history, it was given by direct revelation from Jesus Christ, its head." That's a claim being asserted by some people. It is not "history" to "believe in."
There were witnesses. Many. We humans establish fact (historical fact too) even in a court of law, through witnesses.
@@laurafuller8528 you mean "reliable" witnesses. All of the BOM witnesses were sketchy at best. Besides, how many people have been witnesses to Bigfoot, The Loch Ness Monster, UFO's, etc.? Just because someone says they witnessed something, it doesn't make it true.
When speaking of revelation as an obstacle I don’t find many people who believe in God but don’t give space for revelation. What I see as the critical issue is prophetic fallibility, and people resisting the call to set aside personal conscience.
Both the Bible and the Book of Mormon teach in abundant clarity that teachings are to be evaluated by their fruits.
LDS practice flips that on its head through teachings such as “when the brethren speak the debate is over,” and “it’s wrong to criticize leaders of the Church even if the criticism is true.” At best, current LDS culture turns a blind eye to bad fruits; at worst it deems bad fruits to be good simply because of the source. Just look at things like the dishonest SEC reporting or child sex abuse scandals-if those came through another church we’d all be condemning it, but because it came through our Church, many Latter-day Saints have twisted themselves into pretzels in an attempt to explain that nothing wrong was done.
We have zero eyewitnesses of anything done or said by Jesus. The EARLIEST of our Gospels dates to 2-3 generations AFTER the death of Jesus. The gospels are all anonymous. Christian scholars agree that the names given to the Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John) were given out of church tradition and NOT because those people actually wrote them. So, when you say there were witnesses that the LDS church was named via direct revelation from Jesus, I have no clue what you are talking about.
These dudes have their counterparts in the Book of Mormon! Read the book and learn about their tactics as on display here.
I don't understand what you are saying. Care to explain further?
John... You talk about attending BYU, going on a mission, etc, and still not knowing about JSJ practicing polygamy... Was your reading limited to the BoM and did it not include D&C? In D&C132:1-4, "Jesus" (D&C132:24) clearly specifies the practice as a prerequisite for earning 'godhood.'...Maybe something read, but not absorbed? ...Thanks guys4pursuing TRUTH...
Everyone has their own story. Also keep in mind, he was in school 30+years ago, pre-internet.
I'm 68-years-old and have been a member of The Church my whole life. I absolutely knew and was taught that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy, and I did know about his destruction of the printing press. Where was everyone else?
So, I’m in my mid forties, and have been a member my whole life. I’ve been active and lived a fair amount of time in four states, including Utah, and served an international mission. In all this time and in all these areas, I’ve NEVER been taught that Joseph Smith actively participated in polygamy. If anything, it was suggested that he didn’t and only received the revelation, and it was Brigham Young that kick started the actual polygamy after Joseph’s death. The deal with the printing press was known, but rarely mentioned. The problem here was that I was only ever taught that the press was destroyed because it was printing LIES about Joseph. Only now, I’ve come to find out that it was printing the TRUTH.
Everyone has their own journey.
1800’a were a different time with different standards that people grew up with. Read the articles that the press published about the saints and put yourself in the wild wild cowboy times. Go easy on the past. We weren’t there.
So LDS was just a fad of the times and Smith wasn't a prophet that spoke to god?
Must be hard to pretend your life means much.
Must be hard being such a small person that you feel compelled to leave comments like this about someone for whom we have clear evidence that he has positively affected so many people's lives.
@@thecrossexaminer6665 You apparently don't realize you are poorly educated apostates. Your takes on Joseph Smith are contrived according to own inadequacies and failings. It is sad and pathetic.
Please identify one fact that Dr. Dehlin said about the Mormon church and its history that was false.
@@thecrossexaminer6665 Please identify one that was true.
Wow, John. In your telling the history of the Church, you forgot the most important part...the first vision. Joseph was 14-years-old and wanting to know what was the truth about religion. This was before your treasure digging story. Also, there were people who did actually see the gold plates, and even upon threat of death, they never denied that fact.
Wait for part 2 of the interview!
John is a treasure digger in his own right. Making money off of quasi psychological made up nonsense helping other current or former angry members speak their truth and vent. What does John believe? Love is love. Live your truth. Whatever any of that means it’s easy to defend because it is relative and changes based on how he feels from day to day.
You have posted multiple comments like this without detailing anything he said bout the church or its history that was false.
It seems that you are very upset but can only attack the speaker because you can't attack the facts?
Evil
You are leaving repeated comments that say the same thing. Ask yourself why you feel obligated to do that instead of rebutting the claims made in our interview. I would be glad to field your evidence!
The church has no secrets doctor Dillon is making big money
The church has no secrets? You don’t know what you don’t know I guess!
How much is the Mormon Cult Church paying you to say that bullshit?
What we discuss is very well documented. Also, it's no secret that his name is Dehlin, not Dillon.
The most compelling thing to know about Moronism is that it is true
Why do you believe that?
What about it is true? Lifetime in Mormon cult & we can’t find much that is true. Don’t be a ‘lazy learner’, as Prophet RMN accuses non- believers of being.
Moronism?????
Yeah, it’s definitely “moronic”, lol! 😂
Like the book of Abraham?
Mormon Stories is an evil platform.
Ok Boomer
Care to elaborate?
100%
He sits around and tears down LDS doctrines and leaders with emotional attacks in almost every one of his podcast. Even in this interview he has so many undertones of bitterness. Eventually he will be full on bitter. He has become increasingly emotional and angry over the last 7 years. It’s honestly difficult to watch unless you have your own bitter resentments.
Care to list anything he said in my interview about the church or its history that was false?