What Cryogenic Treatment is & Why You Need It!
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- Опубликовано: 25 июл 2024
- In this video Mike sits down with Bentzion BenAmi of CTP, the cryogenic processor we use for all our serious engine and drivetrain builds. They discuss the history of cryogenic treatment, how it works, what parts can benefit from it and why you should consider it for your next engine build and more!
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Cryo has been used for in the firearms industry for years. Specifically rifle barrels. Cry treated barrels are considerably more accurate and durable.
Smart!
Man I cryoed one of my AR barrels and that sucker now shoots 0.25" groups with 0.22" bullets at 100 yards!
Cyro and WPC is the secret sauce
It really seems to be though
What is WPC?
@@shhhdontshout think of shot peen but way way more precise and doesn’t take away material. I had it done to my crank and it wants to spin for days. I think they use a ceramic bead that’s all the same size if I remember the video correctly. He’s explained it in a video.
@@402SHO crankshaft of what engine? And how much does it cost?
Can you do both of those *then* add a DLC Coating? Does a loe friction coating like DLC interfere with the “oil holding” aspect of WPC’s Dimples?
Had no idea that MotoIQ had its own JU-87...
Well Done! Thank you.
We have our own airforce.
Mike has words to say and I'm gonna listen
Learned about this in hot rod class back in 03 at my mechanic school thanks for talking about this
Thanks for this video, always wondered about it when you brought it up before 🤙
This video read my mind. I learned about WPC from this channel about a year ago. After that video I was researching Cryo for engine because I remember a tv treated their transmission. Only thing I could find was 12 and 9 year old crummy videos.
Also cryo your cutting tools cnc bits, carbide saw blades, band saw blades, etc. It will double the amount of material it will cut before needing sharpening
Thanks for the video Mike!!
Excellent interview and a fascinating topic that was once exclusive to race team secrets and the aerospace industry. I think you nailed it with the comparison to heat treating and the little known benefits of cryo-treating. Automotive alloys are definitely a tricky pickle with such a varied spread of materials that will benefit, but others you'd think would and then turn into ticking time bombs if just one step is done a little off. The only way you could tell other than a subtle harmonic difference is under the microscope.
well look @ this! just what I needed! had no clue! thanks! it's either tempered or cryoed! good luck!
Happy Freezing! LOL This is a great accompaniment to the WPC video, I now understand why you recommend both processes, thanks Mike and Bentzion!
That was cool I've always been curious about the process and the why
Thanks for the great info!
used to cryo our 4g63 in the late 90s . it was a must
Another great video.
Real experts dismantling silly buzzwords. great video!
Cryo also dissipates heat extremely well, off-road automatic transmissions run much cooler, radiators virtually anything you want to run cooler🙂
Really cool subject.
Out of curiosity. I remember in the SCC days. You guys used SwainTech coatings on on your builds. It would seem that with the addition of SwainTech coatings to the cryo and WPC’d treated parts, you would just be adding a layer of protection and benefits. A slight added cost, not as much as I thought, but still. Is my thinking correct or is this just a different route to overall engine longevity and additional power?
Btw, Mike Kojima, it was great to meet you during Fan Fest, in CO Springs. Truly an honor. Well done Team Evasive Motorsports!
One thing is swain coating on pistons won't stick to a wpc treated piston, found out the hard way.
@@motoiq With so many procedures to do to parts, what would be the natural order of treatments. I had my valve train including the camshafts isotopically micro polished next I want to treat them with cyrogenics and lastly a protective coating for first fire up.
@@stevehammel2939 I think if you go to wpc's website you'll find that they recommend coating then WPC, and since WPC comes after cryo, you could perhaps do coat-cryo-WPC since cryo works on the whole piece including the surface.
@@stevehammel2939 depending on the type of coat, I wouldnt expect any to be compatible with cryo -- there are embrittling and differential stresses induced when you have two dissimilar materials as the guy mentioned here. the coating very likely has a CTE mismatch and may become so brittle it cracks as it cant move with the material underneath it.
i Smashed that like button! shared and commented for the algorithm !
Mike! - Can you do a video on a motorsports grade engine vs a built tuner engine? Think pro EVO rally car vs street build.
That's sort of hard because a Motorsports grade engine can depend a lot on the rules and what is allowed. A tuner engine that is properly built uses the same quality machining, etc, at least ours do. A typical tuner shop can build trash. Good tuner shops do things like we do,
Of course I see this video after WPC finished treating my motor and tranny
Cat found that out when replacing new old stock that sat out all winter for years, much tuffer.
Missed you at the pits at PPIHC. You really battled up the mountain. Congratulations on the 2nd place in division and 9th overall!!!
Thank you still tired.
Bill Jenkins said he would use old rusty blocks, in the old small block days.
Do not cryo pressed in iron sleeves in a aluminum block, the block will crack because aluminum will contract more than the iron sleeve.
You can cryo the sleeves and block separately then machine and press in the sleeves.
Cast in sleeves seems to work fine like on Honda stock blocks.
Also don't cryo LS aluminum blocks they are super brittle and usually crack around the sleeves.
Our place, CTP, has the experience to cryo sleeved aluminum blocks no problem. We had issues with other places with cracking and used to never cryo alloy blocks due to the sleeves cracking but CTP never has problems.
Brrrr....Sounds kinda like our northern MN winters, only 10 times colder.🥶
Where do you buy these freezers? Are they home/company made or purchased?
Also when you close the door on the freezer do you have a gasket to keep the nitrogen from escaping? Does the freezer have an exhaust to release pressure? If so what pressure is best for treatment. Anyway on getting in contact with you? I have many questions.
Quiet educational as usual.
Great video! WPC in-depth video too please!
We already have. Look around
ruclips.net/video/7F_PnPnQBMs/видео.html
I wonder how worthwhile this would be for billet blocks/housing's... And if it's what you would do before and not after WPC treatment..
Oh great.. i just wanted to do REM superfinishing and now Moto IQ introduced me to a cryo treatment that i would actually believe in 😂🤷🏼♂️.
Any links to this company? Thanks for a very informative video.
ctpcryogenics.com/
I would love to see if a cryo and wpc treated gear set for the stock wrx 5 speed would increase life out of it power wise. See if it would hold up better.
It will for sure probably doubling the life, but it will still break. It can't fix a bad design.
A friend of mine cryo treated the gearset from his Pulsar GTi-R, it lasted a lot longer but still broke. They’re about as weak as a GC8 box for reference.
Can't turn a Donkey into a stallion.. First rule in any after treatments. A good part given the application can be stellar. Cant throw logic out the window.
Bainite, Martensite, Austenite. Cheers from Greece.
I just got cyro today -43 c outside today...😅
What's the effects on welded tubing, aka headers and various metal parts with metallurgical treatments like nitrites.
It doesnt affect Nitriding and for welds, it stress relives it.
this is like of treatment is like for real racer. normally, people would just pay for cheaper bigger power. going for this treatment is like upgrading better parts for durability. which add a lot more in cost. then again, theres those guys who likes reliability which go there way to make it last as long as possible while babysitting their car and not joyride it everytime.
metal treatment always surprise me. i wonder i visit a machine class and one of the instructor show me the metal before and after treatment. it was just bathing it in chemical which makes the metal so much stronger.
Does this apply to rotary engines? I could see the benefits to the rotor and the housing, but what about something like Apex seals?
Yes very much so, many of the top rotary guys do this and WPC
Arp bolts??
the aging and treating of blocks has gone way back to the 70's as far as I know of from first hand experience we used to have a guy in new zealand people used to send their 440's to he used to take their donor block and swap it out for a pre weathered one would weather them for 14 years knife edge the crank lighten the pistons rods and crank and rebalance whole shebang he was like the frank black of 440's . I even wound up cryo treating my gearbox's to get them to cope with much higher than factory outputs with some simple bearing seal rekits and cryo because the next step up in gearbag for what I was running added thirty kilo's and that was an actual percentage of weight whole car was 799 kilo's so adding thirty for box was untenable.
1:47 they didnt, one of the engineers confirmed it.. blocks outside were newer used, all block were brand new castings from bmw. In the early days of the program, they sourced engines from sold cars (so they had some mileage on them) but that was just until they strike a deal with bmw
Maybe, I would think they would used seasoned blocks which have less shift in them after machining.
Do you have sources?
I have heard countless times that Bmw engineers used seasoned blocks as the metal was normalized.
Maybe rhz most tecchnical speech i've ever heard on YT 😮
If money was an issue and you could only choose one would you go with wpc or cryo treatment? What parts would you focus on?
Connecting rods.
I’m curious if boring and honing is done before or after this treatment. Does it affect tolerances?
If done correctly with slow cooling and gradual warming it will not.
Cryogenic is like remind me of a movie Terminator with Arnold and Robert Patrick 😂😂😂, shoot at the metals and reform again
Also cryo requires special cryo specific heat treatment after cryogenic treatment to roll back some of the hardness and increase ductility.
its actually tempering, not full solution heat treatment.
@@motoiq I know I founded Cryo Science in San Diego California🙂
I know you then! You used to do all of my cryo back in the day.
@@motoiq where are you located?
Gardena CA, you cryoed a lot of my stuff in the 90's till you sold your business to Brian Kono.
Can I cryo treat main and rod bearings? That's the major failure point in my spec944 engines
cryo and WPC.
Have you tried the meta-lax process?
Yes, not sure how well it works though.
Is cryo treatment a viable option for Magnesium? Not just the material but also for Magnesium monoblock rims? I figured it could help stiffen the wheel and help with harmonics but I would like to know your opinion. I have also thought about potentially WPC treating rims as a further step in strengthening the wheel, but then powdercoating may be difficult. Obviously anyone attempting this would need to get the rim from the manufacturer before any protective coatings are applied.
Supposedly BBS cryo treated mag wheels and got a big increase in stiffness. I think CTP actually has data, call them.
Hi, I really wish these guys were smarter.... LOL Thanks guys! I learned a lot
Whats the price range to get Cryogenics treatment for something like a crank or rod?
Google is your friend. ctpcryogenics.com/
Does it change the tollereces?
Usually not.
Can you post a link to the cryogenic company?
ctpcryogenics.com/
never seen before
I can see why there is only one good video about the cryo process on youtube.
Need to cryotreat myself.
Me 1st, & wake me up in 500 years like Buck Rogers! I hope to meet a Colonel Wilma Dearing played by Lindsy Wagner back in those simpler times of the 80's & when women were women!
Are there a cryo/wpc option for people in Europe?
I would say some research with Google would find you local service.
I want to see the data and the results, there needs to be a case study.
There are many, google is your friend.
Any day now theyre going to cryotreat a entire chassis just for the extra bit
Can I drop my lawnmower motor in there without disassembly?
It might mess up the rubber seals
Can you cyro a sleeved block
The company we use can. Others crack the sleeves.
Great video! But I have my doubts about his claims at 12:00
Either I didn't understand what he meant, or he made a mistake... To say cryogenic treatment is making the balance of the part better and reducing harmonics is kind of a stretch IMO...
To reduce harmonics you would either have to change the balance or the rigidity of the part, and neither can be achieved with Cryogenic treatment as far as I am aware...
Either way, great video! Video should have much more views than 4k!
It relives stress which makes the stiffness of a formed part more homogeneous, most things have the natural frequency change after cryo.
@@motoiq makes sense, just as tensioning a guitar string will change it's fundamental frequency → reliving residual stress on a part will also change its natural frequencies.
But by this logic, reducing stresses on a part would shift its modes to a lower frequency, which would be a drawback IMO, but then, since the stiffness distribution is more homogeneous, the propensity to excite higher harmonics would be probably lower...
Investigating these changes would make for a hell of a great article haha
I'm searching for papers about this topic, but I could not find any specifically quantifying the Vibration/Young's Modulus changes after cryo-treatments.
By the way, I have access to some modal-shakers and the facilities to do a modal analysis on a part, in case anyone reading this is interested in shipping me (in central europe) some samples before/after a cryo treatment 🤣
Im an electrician and had a client provide cryo treated romex for his audio circuits. Lol
It makes sense but dang, right?
We heard that actually works from our audio nerd friends.
What does it do for audio????
I want to see examples of rotary engines. Maybe a collaboration with Rob Dahm?
Kyle Mohan and Ron Berganholtz use this same company.
Q. What is WPC?
ruclips.net/video/7F_PnPnQBMs/видео.html
So, it’s cryogenic, WPC and done or it’s necessary to do some heat treatment as well?
That was talked about in the first half of the interview.
Big lab, early 1930s, Germany you say? hmmmmm 🤔🤔🤔 I wonder what they were doing?
Too soon!
The nomenclature is actually wrong, but has stuck, noteably from sci-fi of all things.
Cryogenics is the freezing of living flesh, animal or plant. Cryonics, is the freezing of materials.
You got it backwards.
@@motoiq You're right, my bad, i did get it arse about face.
Cryogenics is materials, cryonics is plant and animal matter.
I cryotreat in my driveway with a big cooler, dry ice and ethanol
Not sure if it gets cold enough. Dry Ice, ethanol is -80 c at the best, N2 is about -190c.
@@motoiq I'm sure Bentzion is familiar with the TTT Curve for all of the materials that they treat. The curve for carbon steel shows 50% tempered martensite at 160'C and 90% at 120'C. Is it really necessary to quench to -190'C? or is -80'C sufficient? Knife makers claim -80'C is plenty sufficient. For other materials like aluminum, not sure. More independent testing is required.
In the video, he mentioned claims of parts being stronger and easier to machine after being left out in the winter. I doubt the winter temps got anywhere near -190*C. So what gives?
Noice, my cars getting Cryo treated ourside for free 🙏
I'm about to freeze every part of my Engine 😄
Brrrrrrr
I wonder if they treat people!!!!!
I need cryo'd & woke up when there's a cure for all my ailments!
Just as long as parts don't fall off! No assembly required. LoL.
What would happen with components if you used liquid helium instead of nitrogen. Would the parts contract too much and lose their tolerences? In my industry (magnetic resonance) we've largely gone away from cryogenics due to the cost of Helium and incorporated Cold head coolers under high vacuums and can get just as close to absolute zero as with liquid Helium. I'm just interested with the temperature differences and whether there is a 'sweet spot' and if there is such a thing as too cold?!
Helium would cost many times more and there is a global shortage of it. Probably from a metallurgy standpoint not make any difference.
@@motoiq Thanks for answering. Yeah, it's -73C degrees colder. just wondered if anyone has tried it for comparison. And yeah, Liquid helium is eye wateringly expensive these days!
Shiredrift & company, I recently retired from 36 years MRI magnet & cryopump “ cold head / compressor “ service repair. I’ve done some minor cryo treatment in a not so laboratory controlled environment with pistols and rifle barrels. The results varied, one rifle a mini14 saw a 100% improvement in accuracy from 4” groups to 2” groups. It was a SS build not carbon steel. The pistol barrel was a 9mm Glock aftermarket for a sales guy at my local range/store. It also improved 100% from 3” to 1 1/2” @ 15 yards. The other barrels didn’t show much if any improvement.
Everything I’ve read and researched leads to colder temperatures and longer soak time will give better results. I’ve been thinking of building a vacuum chamber and using 30K which is -405F pumps to cool the metal. Back in the mid 2000’s many rifle barrel manufacturers were cryo treating and selling new barrels for a short time then they stopped. I spoke to one of them and it was because of varied results. One company has been doing a three day soak instead of a one day soak which seams to be the fix for barrels.
The reason liquid nitrogen is used vs any other gas/liquid is cost! Nitrogen is 78% of what we breathe/ air. It’s non flammable and cheap to produce. $0.50 per liter vs helium anywhere from $15 - $40 + per liter.
I did the barrel on my AR15 DMR rifle and the groups went from 0.9"@ 100 yards to 0.30 or less, no shit! CTP Cyrogenics who we use does a 72-hour soak which they determined to be the best.
Do MRI machines need constant cooling or only when running?
It would be expensive if that huge 3T magnet needs constantly cooled even when not in use. Been in a long bore MRI many many times & it gets warm in there at this one facility unless can they dial back on the cooling to save nitrogen or helium?
Makes me think this one smaller private facility does this ....but they must be able to monitor the magnet temps right?
MRI machines always fascinated but scary at the same time .....
I heard they used go out and pee on those formula 1 blocks those little BMW 4 cyl
He always looks as if someone just told him a joke and he's trying not to laugh.
that intro just made me deaf