What is WPC Treatment and Why Do We Use It On Our Engine Builds?
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 2 окт 2024
- Wonder why we use this mysterious WPC Treatment on so many of our engine builds? Let us explain what WPC is and how it works. It's an inexpensive dose of prevention that can also double the life of your engine!
If you'd like us to WPC any of your parts fill out the form on our MotoIQ Garage Services tab or just follow this link and we'll get back to you: motoiq.com/mot...
LINKS:
READ MORE on MotoIQ.com! www.motoiq.com/
FOLLOW US on Instagram: / motoiq
LIKE US on Facebook: / motoiq
Mike always looks like he's about to drop the punchline of a dad joke. I could listen to him talk shop all day.
He seems like a sincere, good guy to do business with
Yes lol
For 125 an hour you can
@@tomop5603 125$ an hour? Daym that's why he is so smiley :D
Lmao i didn't know what you meant but this until literally the first 3 seconds of the video
Now i want to build an engine and coat everything with wpc
Not a coating.. its a micro dimpling surface treatment
@@jamesdills6720 yea sorry that what i meant
I heard doing the cylinder walls is actually not too good, because the rings never want to break-in.
Martini is a wino he said in the video that it takes a couple more dyno pulls to seat the rings.
Hope you rich
Appreciate the enthusiasm Mr. Kojima, you really are a legend among the industry.
Damn near my whole motorcycle engine is WPC treated. This stuff is the real deal, no doubt.
How long do you have it like that? Any negatives?
Did you notice any difference in how smooth the engine runs and how fast it accelerates??
@@bluewanderer9903 2 solid years now, no issues
@@FirstLast-tx3yj i did a whole bunch of mods to the engine so thats probably most of the power gains but how fast it starts, i think it helps.... i did it more for longevity vs performance and thats the better way to look at it
@@thejayvodlexperience7856 did you do it yourself??
He looks like he always about 1 second away from roasting you.
😂😂😅
Awesome video! You covered so many possible uses but didn't mention the fastest spinning thing in a car - a turbo! Have you tried WPC treating turbo internals for faster spool / better transient response etc?
Good thinking.
Also, wheel bearings ...
@@bluewanderer9903 also, damper rods and tubes
Turbos are already set up for tolerances as low as .00005"
I wonder how this affects oil film /movement of oil across the surfaces. For example, would it reduce the tendency of oil to "stick"?
Your enthusiasm for your work and methods is contagious.
Ok, I thought I kinda knew what WPC was all about but now I REALLY know!! Thanks Mike!! So good to meet them irl with you last week at PRI! :)
I don't know why I find his voice so soothing, even when talking about the most boring shit
Thank you Mike, this solves an issue with using teflon additive in oils to reduce friction. WPC allows the rings to both improve wear resistance and not lose the slipperiness due to flame burn. Fantastic!!!
I really appreciate this video as I'll likely be using WPC on my next built VQ37VHR. Keep it up with the great content and insight!
Came to your channel by way of High Performance Academy. Stoked to find another exceptional resource for a nerdy hobbyist like myself! Great content here
Welcome aboard!
For valve springws, does this modify the K in F=Kx? For piston rings does it modify the compliance (I'm not sure the term, but hoop strength (It's basically a spring)? I want to be really clear on this... from your experience, does the overall dimension change? I know you said in the video the tolerance does not change, but surely the nominal value would, right? Finally, please just do more videos. I love them. Best on the web for automotive tech!
No it does not change K or do any dimensional change down to tenths which is the best we can measure.
real question always is how much does it cost? And if WPC makes the friction lower, wouldn't putting it on clutch packs just cause it to slip more and engage less?
For an inline 6 crankshaft is $310, for each shell of the rod bearing or crank its $12, each cylinder bore is $100, very reasonable prices, Also it increased lubricity which in hand is good for clutch packs, that's why they have friction modifiers for the oil.
100$ a cylinder? Geez
@@SavageBunny1 Only $310? That is nothing compared to repairing or replacing an entire engine. That little money to double my engine life is pennies.
MR Miyagi of Engines boys!
I WPC treated my BMW S54 crank, rod bearings and main bearings, VANOS oil pump and oil pump itself, everyone that drives my car that owns a real M3, notices that my car is a lot more responsive.
Very smart. Especially on the oil pump. How much did everything cost you
@@ALW96 the crank was $310, everything else added up to another $200 maybe, very cost effective.
@@SavageBunny1 where did you get these services done?
@@jt-iu3kv CTP CRYOGENICS in California
I WPC a lot of parts on my cars. Including shift knobs, shifter lever, valvetrain parts, clutch fork, clutch release bearing and clutch slave cylinder piston/cylinder.
surely you wouldnt want less friction on the shift knob lol
Do you do it yourself? Because its expensive isnt it?
You mentioned WPC treating titanium valve stems, has that eliminated any galling and cut down the wear within the guides? I really want to use the WPC on my Gen 3 hemi on the springs, valves, especially the rocker shafts. I wish more people would document the use of WPC. I've only utilized it on a VK56DE oil pump housing and gears.
Would really like to try it on my triumph 675 triple engine and trans.
I’m extremely curious if this would solve the cam/lifter issues that the hemi and ls engines have. This treatment sounds like it can used to not only possibly solve those issues with cylinder deactivation engines, but also add to the efficiency of the engine as well. Taking a v8 that shuts off 4 cylinders and reducing friction by up to 50% makes low load cruising more economical, while also freeing some power and lowering temps when under full load. Hmmm.
It sucks that the simpler design of ohv single cam engines are naturally going to have extra resistance. Although when you turn them by hand, ohc engines still have about the same resistance. I think that's more in part caused by the chain or belt length. Subarus being a perfect example, I'm not exactly sure what the hemis problem is but I heard it was just poor quality steel being used in combination with cheap lifters. They aren't terrible lifters but they obviously have a typical life span. I'm just guessing cause the predecessor to the hemi, the magnum engines hardly ever had lifter issues. Although I don't know how the cylinder shut down works so that could be the whole reason why but this is just my thought on it
Very interesting surface substrate refinishing methodologies. I like it.
Getting my buckets and my kelford cams done for my 7age 20v engine
WPC works on the driver, engine builder, body builder, tire guy, etc!
LOL!
I noticed I’m smiling while watching Mike. 😅😂
I guess it’s kind of like yawning. 😂
Don’t wpc you disk brakes, great video
What are your thoughts on WPC treating oil pump internals?
He already did a video on an Honda k series and he wpc the internals for less friction and less heat.
@@joseacuna3239 and to help reduce the chance that the gears might break.
Wish there was a place in Australia for WPC :(
Japan / California
Japan would be pretty cheap for an Aussie esp if u lived up north
Sure would be cool to see a complete engine before & after coated, torque to turn on the engine stand. Or before & after on the dyno.
Its pretty expensive to do an engine back to back. We did do my daughters kart engine and it gained 0.2 hp which is pretty good on a 9 hp engine. It cut almost a second off her lap times.
@@motoiq Thanks for the reply! I understand its expensive to rebuild motors, but if a known engine is going to be rebuilt it seems it would be relatively easy to remove the spark plugs on the engine in question & do a before & after by use of a torque wrench. I have done something similar with engines before & after with synthetics. Anyways, always learning from the good videos you produce.
@@motoiqdid you cryo treat the kart engine as well?
I love the word 'lubricity'
Amazing, I remember first seeing a video on WPC treatment years ago and thinking this might have huge implications for engine internals, and now I see it's been done and works. Now I really wonder if this could help make a turbo rotary more durable and powerful.
It works really well on rotary engines.
@@motoiq Oh no shit! Not too surprised, good to know, thanks!!
@@motoiq here's a video of WPC in Japan, which includes DLC. Looks like WPC is micro-shotpeening surfaces with Tungsten.
ruclips.net/video/-NKbtFEb2dc/видео.html
yea, i would figure it will work great in the housing and rotors itself
@@thomaschung5623 apex seals could have huge benefit from this
The pebble surface makes since that things spin longer on top of it compared to glass smooth surface since it’s less area of contact which would reduce overall friction.
this should be done on all cylinder walls and piston rings from factory, probably increases efficiency
I'm wondering if the WPC treatment would be good for the friction surfaces in an AR-15. Maybe even a muzzle treatment to increase velocity and consistency. I already know that you can get a DLC bolt carrier group for them. I'm wondering if the combination of the tube would go really good into increasing reliability and velocity / accuracy.
If it is a phosphated bolt yes for sure. Haven't tried it on nitrided, or chrome yet.
@@motoiq Excellent! I'm wondering if the process would be able to be done inside the bore of a barrel. I understand the concept of how it works but I don't know much about the process. I don't know if you could get the equipment inside such a small hole or how it would affect the rifling. I know a lot of people including myself run stainless barrels in their precision competition guns. That could be a game changer if it's possible. By the way, thank you for your response. I really appreciate it and did not expect it.
its hard to get the medium to hit at the right angles inside the bore. I tried it on a glock with a stainless barrel and it only got the ramp and chamber. That gun is easy to clean! From what I understand, some military units use the process on their SAW's due to a friend of mine that does special stuff, he says the cyclic rate and reliability go way up, especially on the M249spw
@@motoiq I had a feeling that might be the case. Maybe as time and technology progress the ability to perform a treatment inside the bore may become a possibility at some point. Regardless, it's an excellent technology that should get more applications than it does.
Another great vid!
Would this treatment be overkill for a street engine?
We like it especially for daily drivers that do a lot of miles.
Thank you for sharing your knowledge sir 🙏🏽
So much good info
I'm sold, I almost wished.I hadn't seen this video. I have 2 wheelbarrows worth of stuff i would like to send. Lol I have.
Extravagant taste for a poor boy. My LS build is going to miss out. But I will most definitely Be sending my Clutch plates For my open primary shovelhead in the Future. Hum? Axles, lifters, Litter blocks, push rods, springs, rockers,piston. OK Everything but the seat, foot pegs, and handlebars 😏
I want to WPC everything now!
Change in surface hardness aside.
These tests all look impressive however I wonder how different these tests would perform when oil is introduced as in actual operating conditions.
I think the main benefit of this treatment is when oil is not present, or atleast not enough of it to avoid some friction. It looks like creates microstructure finish that retains a coating of oil that surfaces glide on.
That’s what I’m thinking, a lot of these rotating assembly parts have a thin film of oil between the contact. Lol I’m sure this helps A little but depending on how expensive it is, is it worth it? Who knows
I Love your Videos !
I WPCd my shoes and now I can fly.
I put wpc treatment on my ding dong- best investment i ever made.
Would this treatment improve the efficiency of positive displacement supercharger rotors?
I'm building my 2.0L Alfa Romeo twin-cam Nord engine. Bringing my crank, bearings, oilpump gears, pistons, rings, rods, cylinders, etc to WPC.
“Normally dropping a valve is normally bad news” lol....
Stick some on brake disc lololol
I have heard that (proper) Cryo treatment combined with WPC treatment can even further extend the durability of any stressed prone parts. Unfortunately most of those claims have come from vendors so I would love to hear what your personal experience has found on the matter. So, what do you think of cry treatment?(with or without WPC)
We find that the biggest increases are in wear resistance. Usually at least 50% better. Cryo helps abrasion resistance to some degree and helps in fatigue strength by at least 50%. It's not going to make crappy metal or an underdesigned part amazing but it will make it last 2x longer before it breaks.
Seems crazy that you could make a surface more dense through shot peening, without effecting the tolerances at all.
Do you think that is down to the dry lubricant being left impregnated in the surface of the parts? I guess it could also be that the surface change is so small it doesn’t effect clearances 🤔 either way seems like a great service! Shame it’s doesn’t appear to be available across the pond.
WPC has less effect on surface dimensions than shot peen.
@@SylasG I find WPC coatings excellent, I lighten by grinding all my parts on my Norton race engines, just plain shot peening by a knowledgable source can strengthen an undisturbed steel conrod by up to 20%. The key is "a knowledgable source" I use a company that peens the root radius of Bell helicopter variable pitch Blades. I wpc my aluminum parts and Babbit shells minimum excellent. This was F1 Tech only.
Excellent video, can you do a video of WPC vs. Teflon coating? Thanks.
Got a Sr20det piston and rings, crank and bearing wpc treatment 10 years ago and the motor is still going. Did wish we did the camshaft.
Im betting the mechanical friction losses come from the reduced contact surface. This coupled with the increased surface area for oil to dwell in really makes this process a marvel of engineering
This process looks like it would be advantageous for the aviation and small arms industries as well. Very cool video, thank you for the information!
It is!
Ok ill say it... first off the content itself if absolutely 🔥🔥🔥 no question but why does buddy always have that smirk on his face and keep peeking up and around like that??? He does it so much it's distracting. I'm confused is he camera shy or what??
WPC saves the world!🧾📖💻 this guys super informative!📖📖📖📖📖📖📖 💯
I was building a motor for my Mazdaspeed 6 and had the Pistons, rings, and bearings WPC. I sold the build before I got to finish it.
My question is, have you had similar builds that you have had one with several components WPC treated, and the other without any WPC and could quantify any performance increase? Like has the WPC one had higher output due to the reduction in friction?
On a car, it is super expensive to do an A to B test on WPC only but I have done it on a go-kart engine, on my daughter 50cc two-stroke Kart, it gave .2 more hp on a 3 hp motor and took a second of her lap time on a 1.03-second track. When she moved to 100cc karts it gained .3 hp on a 9 hp engine and gave her just under a second improvement on a 37 second a lap track. These are spec motors but the WPC isn't detectable and pass tech. For cars, the engine life is greatly increased, that's for sure. Also when a new engine is being turned by hand while being assembled, the friction is way less and the engine spins a lot easier.
@@motoiq wow! That's awesome. Thank you for the reply!
Could you WPC my relationship with my parent...???😄
I've watched this video a few times and each time I learn something new. Today I learned DLC and WPC work together, and side-coated piston skirts with WPC is less common. I've seen DLC applications for every component of the piston, and love to see it with the WPC treatment done first. How does it, or doesn't it, affect friction, lubricity, and overall wear/performance? Great video - I'm setting a reminder to watch it again in a month.😉😎
We found that coating doesnt stick to a WPC treated piston that well.
@@motoiq sir, i still had silly question, but u think effective is effective we use ceramic coating on piston crown ( for reducing heat ofc) coz, in my mind if can combo WPC + ceramic coating crown its so overkill
This is one of my favorite channels by far.
Hell, if shot peening has been good enough for firearms metalurgy for decades, then this process should be night and day if applied in their industry as well.
Sometimes for certain extreme applications like gears, I do this in this order. Cryo treat, then severe shot peen with hardened 330 and 220 RC 65 shot, then finally WPC. The big shot extends the compressed layer a few thou deep, then WPC further refines the surface and gives the awesome low friction finish.
@@motoiq I gotcha, basically an extra step on top of previous hardening treatments. Which in itself is a benefit. Much obliged. =]
@@JimBrodie I have also WPC treated a match barrel on my Glock that I hand fitted which was super tight and ammo sensitive, it didn't cycle reliably on low power cheap ammo. WPC fixed it. I also did the same thing on my hand-fitted 1911 with the same results.
@@motoiq Way ahead of the curve of what i was thinking already. Top notch. =]
Your way of explaining is very deep and thorough. Thanks for this awesome video.
This is like an as seen on TV add, but actually works. And no, they won't double your order for free.
Thank you!! Now I gotta rip apart my f20b to do all of this lol but seriously thank you I'm definitely doing this to my f20b and my ys1 Gs-R transmission.
What does WPC recommend for surface prep? Depending on that, I could tell you what's in it. If it's heat vs acid etch for instance; moly is an acid etch if memory serves, and if there's a heat chaser, ptfe or graphite is involved. All of those are friction modifiers, though moly has that dull silvery grey surface appearance.
Whatever the final surface finish for the end use is.
@@motoiq Interesting. I misunderstood and thought this was like a send-out service, but if I understand correctly now, this is like a product that is forcefully applied like a reverse sandblast or kind of like an anodizing treatment (in terms of surface transfer) of sorts? Initially I had in my mind that is was being done as an industrial hot tank process where the product was surface bonding chemically.
It's impingement with super small ceramic spheres and dry film lubricant.
@@motoiq I very much appreciate your having expanded my wheelhouse to the product. I'm occasionally guilty of getting to that point where you try a lot of things but stick with what you know works or make one yourself. Outside of nitriding which isn't really what I'd consider long-term durable on hard-wearing surfaces but better than nothing, Cerakoting or products like it were something I'd turn to on occasion if it wasn't like a bearing or journal surface. More often than not, I'm more concerned (in my field anyway) about thermal protection than metal-to-metal contact and fell back on oil additives for the heavy lifting with asperations to finding something better one day. 😉
What happens if you wash off the lubricants you mentioned them adding?
It doesnt wash off.
I WPC myself, it's that great!
How do you do it?
@@polipochilegge to find an answer to that question, use your imagination 😁
Who, where and cost?
And he talked for twenty minutes and I still don't know what WPC stands for.
I was guessing walnut pressurized compaction but it's not that.
I did learn enough to earn you a subscription.
Back in the day I remember shot peening,magnafluxing,balancing and something called blueprinting were the buzzwords.
Then came ceramics, titanium nitride and Nikasil.
I'm dreaming of a rotary that's also an electric motor.
Say a positive charged rotor floating on a field induced by a negatively charged block.
Have the charge flow through windings or magnets and controlled by a computer.
Now you can blend smooth rotary power with hybrid electric juice in any ratio on demand with one moving part.
Plus this should eliminate the pesky apex seal wearing problem forever.
The rotor is always redirected away from the cylinder wall and gets to only work when needed.
Good idea, to bad rotaries have really poor thermal efficiency.
Crazy process. Does a fully pwc engine make more power?
It has less friction so less power wasted.
LOL, I wanna WPC treat the CVT in my Altima ... think it would help.
Gonna wpc my Sentra cvt too
Nope.
@@shadowopsairman1583 obviously joking
Great, now I have to take apart my engine I just put together and WPC all the things. Lol
Is this tech used by the OEM teams in racing to make better engines with supposedly OEM parts, say IMSA?
Yes, NASCAR, Indy cars, IMSA, MotoGP, F1 and OEM manufactures like Honda, Yamaha and Nissan on some production parts.
How do you add WPC treatment ? I watched videos of people ceramic coating but I can't see any video on : how WPC is achieved on engine components...
Probably you could answer me?
Watch the video
Excellent advice, backed up by real world testing!
Sounds like glorified shot peening with much, much smaller media.
It's a bit of an unfare comparison. Ultra flat shiny surface typically promote adhesion. Such as guage blocks that ring together. Wpc treatment is amazing I have to admit.
It is fair, WPC vs Smooth.
Combine this on a forged crank, cryo frozen too. Youd probably have a litteral bullet proof engine, unless this and cry freezing on a forged piece would cause some unusual stresses then youre fugged
Cryo reduces stress
I want to see Mike perform a full assembly of a boosted LS. Can we make it happen Moto IQ?
we already did it! ruclips.net/video/TBGX2xL4WHU/видео.html
Man, You the man, Thanks for sharing your knowledge. I’ve always been a piston head 😵💫. I’m just starting with (Old School SBC racer😵💫) LS engines 1 LSA and just finished a LS 9. One question if you don’t mind. What is the red coating that GM puts on the bearings? The bearings I took out of both engines look brand new .
It's an anti scuff coating for initial startup.
@@motoiq must be good stuff the lsa had 16,000 miles on it and the bearings and the crank looked brand new. Thank you for the response. Batman 😎
Inside my head this is what motorkote does to my engine. 😅
What's the cost to have it done..???
check out their web site. www.wpctreatment.com/
how much horsepower gain after WPC all engine parts?, have you compare it?, less friction should be more power
On a car, it is super expensive to do an A to B test on WPC only but I have done it on a go-kart engine, on my daughter 50cc two-stroke Kart, it gave .2 more hp on a 3 hp motor and took a second of her lap time on a 1.03-second track. When she moved to 100cc karts it gained .3 hp on a 9 hp engine and gave her just under a second improvement on a 37 second a lap track. These are spec motors but the WPC isn't detectable and pass tech. For cars, the engine life is greatly increased, that's for sure. Also when a new engine is being turned by hand while being assembled, the friction is way less and the engine spins a lot easier.
What's the price for 5 speed FWD Honda gearbox?
It's like shooting penning?
Is there a way u can bring this technology to Australia, it WILL BLOODY TAKE OFF!!!!
Why not LASER peening instead of WPC (shot peening)? LASER is known to extend the life by 10x.
Can you WPC treat titanium metal for engine parts
Yes
Is there any benefits to include isotopic treatment with WPC & Cryo?
I don't like it because it changes dimensions
How about cylinder walls? I believe Honda uses a ceramic coating instead of iron sleaves.
Some Honda engines use a cast silicone carbide matrix cast into the aluminum. WPC works on all of that.
Would wpc and cryo treatment be viable for apex seals?
Yes a lot of top rotary builders use it.
What is Cost to do a 351winAnd a c4 transmission
www.wpctreatment.com/quotation.htm
How do thread locking agents react to it?
Not affected
Okay..... I'm sold !
Give us a name/number/address
wpctreatment.com/
So basically WPC everything.
I don't understand the benefit to WPC treatment on clutch plates in a DCT, is friction not the mechanism for engagement? If you were to reduce the friction would the clutches be more prone to slipping and then would increase wear? I must be missing something
Curious as to what it'd do to brake rotors lol.
Don't recommend it for rotors, you want more friction but less.
If they're drilled a little WPC treatment around the holes might make them less likely to crack.
WPC IS LITERALLY MY FAVOURITE THING
I feel like I wouldn’t want my clutch done because I want more friction to hold my power. Will it last longer yeah but If I’m racing I want my clutch to hold
Has anyone ever tried WPC on a Wankel rotary? Would it have any utility in, say, a turbo 13B?
Works awesome on a rotary. A few famous racing cars used it and it solved many many issues that rotary engine suffer from. In fact, if you combine Cryogenic treatment with that its even more amazing
Kyle Mohan uses it. The Berganholtz Bros did to when they were running the RX8 in FD.
@@motoiq @James Dills Thanks. Which parts do they treat, the rotors and the eccentric shaft? I wonder if they keep OEM-style chrome plating on the rotor housings, it seems to me that big gains could be made by removing friction and improving sealing there.
@@FireflyActual housings, seals, e shafts, bearings.
@@motoiq Thank you!
speaking of transmission would it be beneficial to wpc syncros? if so thats it im wpc'ing my cd001 transmission when i rebuild it instead of buying a cd009 lol
Followers used was different from one another so I say not a valid test take two brand new ones then do it . Or if you want to stick with used ones use the same one . There is a cone built to the top surface and one was warn so it was flat would not spin as good. Other one still had the cone shape on the bottom that helps it spin .
Awesome demonstration of how well the wpc coating works!! Top notch for sure!! Hey just out of curiousity... You need a shop hand by any chance lol?