"Why More People Tunnel" - Scott Live Reacts - Dead by Daylight
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- Опубликовано: 2 окт 2024
- I thought I'd try something different today and instead of doing my normal process of watching DBD videos / twitter post / reddit, wherever, I get my discussion ideas from, I'd watch them live as people suggest videos. This is the first video we went over by robOtz.
/ scottjund 
Игры
On the BBQ and chili stacks subject, I honestly felt much MUCH better getting 4 stacks and losing than current no stacks and losing. It was a sort of side quest that felt really good achieving imo. Same goes for we're gonna live forever stacks as survivor. I really hope they bring back something similar on both sides.
this is the reason i like using "grim embrace" and "no way out". I recommend those perks if you want that feeling of completion.
@@brunosouza3326 I do enjoy that perk exactly for that reason but They need something that you can work towards and feel good when you get it like BBQ or WGLF stacks that adds something outside of the current game like bloodpoints and maybe even some kind of buff ingame on top.
It should be brought back but as basekit for both sides and not tied to a perk.
@@Black_chinese_monster its pretty rare to not find all survivors when youre actively searching for them tho. Its still a weak perk 45s is usually just one chase but it still feels nice to get the stacks, wich is why i recommended it.
idk i felt shackled to BBQ. like if i wasn't running it im wasting time. im not getting bew perks i want for fun builds on whatever killer ect. the difference in BP gained was very very high
100% especially as a new player who doesn’t have every perk unlocked BBQ was basically base kit for me and the points were more important than getting kills.
Hell I’m not even good at Survivor but I would use BBQ to get points for survivors and get better perks LOL
Yep I would avoid playing killers I hadn't unlocked bbq on yet.
Aaahhhhhh they don't understand its about the points. You have the voice of the many right now, please inform them
BBQ was basekit for me my first 500 hours. Course bloodpoints are a lot easier to get and buy a lot more now than they used to.
Yup I ran BBQ on every single killer in every single match because I wanted the BP.
Giga chads throwing the entire match to get bbq was pretty common
would def throw not to tunnel/get 4 stacks. surprised no one ever gives noobie hatch anymore always give the baby dwight hatch.
I was guilty of that many times. 4 man escape? Ah well, at least I got my BBQ stacks.
BBQ was basically winning. If you got BBQ you got enough points that even when stomped you're not set back
I did that regularly.
If I had 3 BBQ stacks I almost devloped a tunnelvision on the guy I didn't hook yet.
It had another side benefit though: losing but having all 4 stacks cushioned your fall, meaning it made losing more bearable because you had this small victory to be happy about.
With the removal of the stacks, this cushion is no longer there, meaning a loss always hits you at full force.
But BHVR had to keep their precious Bloodpoint """Economy""" in mind, we can't have it that they reduce the grind in meaningful ways after all :)
@@MrxD-cg5xs u do realize that they juristically reduced the grind right
I'd like to add that Dead Hard was different too and it was very easy to combine a free hit from BT, with DH + DS for a massive amount of time stalled for being tunneled, which scared a lot of killers into not tunneling.
Unbreakable was also commonly run with DS, so no matter what, the killer would lose a ton of pressure by tunneling.
Now that synergy isn't really there anymore (killers don't respect DS), DH can't be used while in deep wound, unless you run DS, which we know is really questionable over other perks, and you have our current situation where anti-tunneling is pretty weak, making it appealing to killers as it's an easier way to win the match.
I don’t think tunnelling will ever stop until ds gets buffed cause that was the biggest deter from tunnelling we have ever had in the game and it worked
Yes! Also the Iron Will nerf makes it harder to hide from the killer when you're still injured from getting off the hook now. The meta shake up DID make tunneling way easier, and Scott is right that it's more about how survivor changed than it is about how killer changed. The killer changes did make it a bit better, but man those survivor nerfs really hurt.
@@BecketTheHymnist Yeah, Iron Will was really big in situations like Scott mentioned where you give the unhooked person time to run away while you hook the unhooker. Often times they would just vanish for me and I couldn't find them for a while.
Well put. Tunnelling was always heavy, but it was a basically worldwide known thing that you down a survivor and leave them for a minute on the floor. Now, I don't know if that's actually a healthy way to play but thats extreme respect given unanimously to a perk that doesn't even see plays anymore.
@@Bubbashammer Honestly I think the easiest way to stop tunneling is just to say no death until 5th hook (total hooks not individual) in the game. So if you want to focus one guy while hooking nobody else, you have to hook him 5 times, then you're left with 3 other survivors each with 0 hooks.
BBQ: YES! Playing Killer for me was just a way how to quickly get lots of BP. And the best way to do that was to rapidly queue in the evening, get 4 stacks and have the game end no matter if it's a win or loss. Extending the game to a crazy long duration by protecting a 3-gen etc. was just a waste of time when you wanted the most bloodpoints per hour.
that part
When I started playing I was so bad, (normal for new players). I thought it was because I didn’t have good perks but truth was that I was just bad. The fact that I wasn’t winning games much made me divert my focus to the perk that was getting me the blood points I thought I needed to win games. I focused on just getting 4 stacks as my win and that was enough for me to not feel bad about losing. It changed my focus and I became a better killer player quicker than I thought because I wasn’t focused on perks to win me the game or camping and tunneling. I took chases and got good at them abecause I didn’t just ignore that one cracked survivor that would run me for 4 gens while his teammates couldn’t last one gen themselves. My chase mechanics got really good and my macro gameplay got better over time learning from mistakes. I think this was why bbq was so good because it rewarded this play style in more ways than one, and it’s a huge loss for new players even if bloodpoints are more accessible now then when we had good bbq
I really dislike that they removed the BP incentives for BBQ and WGLF. I play almost exclusively survivor, so when I play killer and get destroyed, I still felt okay because I managed to complete my own mini objective, which was the 4 BBQ stacks for extra BP. Same thing for survivor, even if a game is completely lost (or soon to be lost), I still felt good because I could still achieve my own mini objective for WGLF.
nice for you but not everyone want only "points" and its fine that bbq havent stacks anymore, ik what bhvr want to do they dosent want perks shold be giving extra bp,. and if everyone says: "bbq no longer stacks so tunnel the killers" either you haven't played dbd before or you have no idea, the only reason the killers didn't do hardcore tunnel is because DS was feared
@@matteoschmasanovski4656 Please read out comments before you hit enter to make sure they don't come off like the ramblings of a madman; Additionally, please try to stay on-topic. It's hard to tell, but I'm pretty sure you got way off-base from ofsushi's comment. He said he didn't like what they did, not that it was bad, and never mentioned tunneling or DS.
Nowadays I have tons of cakes and get the BP bonus for playing a needed role. When I got started, BBQ carried my penniless butt.
@@matteoschmasanovski4656 What even is English? But really what exactly was the problem with incentivizing killers to hook every survivor at least once? It was a much more effective anti-tunnel perk than most anything else because it GAVE the killer something for NOT tunneling instead of trying to punish them for tunneling. MYC has a similar effect but BBQ was much more ubiquitous and the extra BP was a much better incentive because it’s something you can use outside the match. Taking away the BP part was just stupid.
"nice for you but not everyone want only "points""
Why do you think you're special?
"I don't need the extra points so who cares that it was removed!!"
You're not the only person that plays the game dumba**. Most players DO want more points.
Stop pretending to be smart.@@matteoschmasanovski4656
I would love to see Scott and Otzdarva talk about this in person because I think they have slightly different ideas about the term "tunneling". It seems like for Scott, tunneling is ignoring everything else in the game in order to hunt down a specific survivor while for Otz it seems like tunneling is targeting a specific survivor as a priority but also exerting as much pressure as possible if another opportunity arises.
I would say Scott’s definition is more along the lines of tunneling otz is like you said just working in order of importance I do the same I keep track of who’s on what hook number because it’s necessary if you want to win you can’t just randomly run around and hunt whoever unless you want to get your time wasted and lose gems but the exception to that is if you find two survivors injure both but only chase one because they’re the weaker link
It would be nice to see chat in these live discussion videos
noted for the future!
I posted Mike Ehrmantrout ascii a lot, I agree it is essential
@@ScottJund the problem with chat is that you never know what they write, maybe some troll might put an among us cock or something which you might not want, so maybe chat with a delay to make sure that the mods remove the unwanted messages. Idk just might be something you need to look for
the mike ascii is crucial to my scott experience
Like react andy?) (Scott will reach his final form)
I would literally throw matches to get 4 stacks, sure tunneling still existed and was prevalent, but a lot of ppl really wanted bloodpoints over sweating for the 4k
I have never cared about bloodpoints. I only played for the 4k. If I 4k enough I would get plenty of bloodpoints.
@@xeticus5435when you care more about unlocking stuff faster and getting good add-ons in the web then you are more incentivized to stack BBQ then tunnel IMO
@@themadmanescaped1 I didn't care about getting stuff faster or getting addons. If I play enough I would get them. I only played to 4k.
@@xeticus5435 eh... I mean if you got time like a streamer to waste an entire day on DbD then BBQ might not matter but for me BBQ was a huge help.
I actually got discouraged from playing because extra BP was gone.
@@themadmanescaped1 People really loved the extra BP and would go overboard for it. I never cared for it and tried not using it as I wanted to avoid aura perks. I stuck with perks like bloodhound and strider, less obvious means of tracking. People were always prepared for BBQ and people never understood how they could never lose me when I was using Bloodhound.
Here's how tunneling typically goes in most scenarios:
1. Guy goes to unhook
2. Killer uses stbfl to down the unhooker
3. Killer doesn't hook unhooker yet
4. Killer goes after unhooked person (there's very little down time between downing the unhooker and going for the unhooked guy)
5. Killer downs the unhooked guy
6. Killer hooks the unhooked guy
7. Now the killer can hook the unhooker (if he isn't already picked up, but the point was to hooked the unhooked guy, not him)
yeah pretty much. stbfl makes using off the record a bit worse and not everyone brings it. ds wont give u much distance and its hardly run on survivor so its just free downs. not to mention stbfl got an indirect buff when they made that big killer buff patch
But his point is where are you getting your stacks. You need 8 hits to make it useful so how are you doing that if you're tunneling one guy.
@@bagelbomber4834 save the beat for last does not need 8 stacks to be useful
@@bagelbomber4834 at the end of that interaction you'll have 6 stacks at least unless the obsession was the one unhooking (and because of the basic attack buff, 6 stacks of stbfl is as fast as 8 stacks used to be)
Regardless. The time it takes him to hit the unhooker leaves the other guy more than enough time to get far enough away from the pain res hook. If they are a potato and he manages to still hit him really soon then with the bt endurance they won’t get far but still as long as they run in a straight line the killer will have to hook elsewhere. Also to be right there for the tunnel they basically have to camp as well which leaves the reassurance issue and then tunneling isn’t any better because they can’t tunnel someone still on hook for an extended duration while teammates bang out gens. So it’s no longer time efficient at that point. Too many contradictions imo
I didn't play killer a lot back then, but when I did it was typically because I needed bloodpoints and BBQ was the easiest method in the game to get them quickly. Quite literally playing killer was just BBQ BP farming.
True. Right now the only incentive for me to play killer are archive missions and dailies.
@@mitchsz or playing Wesker and partaking in the single most fun thing you can do in DbD
A 50 minute video of Scott tunneling 👀👀😅
Yeah, Scott says he wants killers to tunnel at 6:07
Vile Scott
A bit too vile.
About the BBQ thing, I was the type of person who prioritized getting 4 stacks over getting kills. Bloodpoints felt better than victory.
4:35 no i 100% prioritized 4 stacks over winning every time
100% I only tunneled by mistake, I always sought my 4 stacks before trying to win a game.
Agreed
why does everyone always assume those are related? who says you cant tunnel the shit out of someone and still get 4 stacks?
@@ScottJund im not saying its impossible, im just saying i didnt really care about winning and if i didnt have my stacks i would try my absolute hardest to get them even if it missed me out on one or two kills
People are making it sound like getting 4 individual hooks is something that's hard to achieve
I do believe one thing that has dramatically changed is that items are more common now because of the bloodweb, BP changes, and especially prestige changes, especially for newer players who used to have their entire inventory erased each prestige. At the same time, though, the most broken and obnoxious add-ons for killer are also much more common. Which of survivor or killer benefits more depends on the specific killer.
I still say that the grade/rank change is the biggest driver, with DS a close second. Staying at Iri 1 was bragging rights, but you would struggle to do that if you straight tunneled people out immediately. Skill, then, was dragging out games while staying in a winning position, not 4King off 6 hooks, or people DCing because they were being facecamped. Yes, people still played that way, but the game chastised you for it, and do it enough, and you get kicked out of the top MMR, so no more bragging rights to your audience or other people. Your status badge was taken away. Now though? It's all just kills, and so many streamers are preaching that you NEED to play for 4K every single time, regardless of anything else.
That's weird, I'm getting way fewer items now. In the past I could stay at level 50 and get a couple medkits or medkit charges addons per bloodweb. And now I can enjoy only one level 50 bloodweb and then I'm forced to go back to level 1 where I practically get near-zero yellow and green medkits + medkit addons, until maybe level 35+.
I'm glad to see someone else who sees this. Map offerings and items are much more common now in my experience as both roles
The longer the game has been out, the more items people have. It's just math. They've also completely changed the prestige system to never get rid of items. So new players never lose their items unless they are killed, which is less likely if you bring an item to begin with. Especially, a stronger item. For players that have already gotten every killer and survivor prestiged or have everything they want, you can run addons or items almost every single game and be able to afford more. Or you just swap the one you're running out of for another equally strong item. Why ever go into a match unable to heal yourself?
Hard agree here on the grade/rank change. There is no longer anything that drives players to learn the nuances. Now you can just tunnel and never hit an actual wall where your wins start gradually getting you into games you can't handle. The only way for me to enjoy killer now is to play builds that are totally counter to the killer metas.
4:30 Actually... yes! This was me. I found that a lot of the time (this might've just been a skill issue), if I played for kills... I would come up... short... I might get frustrated or upset and I felt I needed to set my own goal, my own objective. I was literally playing a different game. I would be sweaty as FRICK getting those BBQ stacks. THOSE were what mattered. If I got zero kills but 4 stacks? I was happy. Double bloodpoints, baby! Seeing that number go up was what it was about! But toss in a survivor pudding? I was lovin' it! My entire gameplay, mentality and builds centered on BBQ and those gorgeous stacks! I could play and get zero kills but still feel like I won in my own game and soon after, I got better and better and I was 4king most my games even after I stopped being sweaty once I got my 4 stacks. My favorite part about seeing someone DC was "Welp, I hooked em so I got my stack." and would be salty if they DCed before I got the stack.
I just... feel lost without it. Heart's not really in it now. Got a picture on my desk of BBQ with 4 stacks and sadly reminisce about the good times now and then. I would gleefully revert DS to the 5 second stun if it meant BBQ and WGLF could have their stacks back.
I don't think scott was saying that people like you don't exist, he's saying that MOST killers don't want BBQ stacks more than a win.
@@theshpee1214 I would have to say that he's accurate. I imagine that people like me are a minority when it comes to bbq stacks vs. a win. However, that's not what Otz said either. Otz didn't say most killers want bbq stacks over a win, Otz said there are "a lot". Which is harder to define than "most". Most means majority, a lot can be just about anything depending on what you compare "a lot" to.
A lot can be an absolute truckload if you're comparing against the player base or it can be a handful if you only compare it to the player pool that actually uses BBQ and since anything I could say in this would be anecdotal, the only thing I can really do to support anybody's viewpoint here is by lining up and giving roll call. "Say here if you prefer BBQ stacks over a win." Here!
I think he was more talking about soft tunneling not literally find 1 person and drill them and ignore everyone else I think with that build he was more talking about people that start the game spreading pressure but realize gen’s might be going to fast and there gonna loose if they don’t start tunneling someone out that’s how I’m interpreting this
Precisely this.
I mean, he made a whole video called something like "How to win as killer" and he almost literally says "If you want at least two kills, tunnel someone, even if it takes 5 gens, and then down someone else and camp the hook." And if you want 3 kills, then camp and tunnel someone immediately in hopes that the rest of the team will throw trying to save them. The only reason not to tunnel, supposedly, is because that survivor might be good, so try chasing someone else too to check which of the two is weaker before you focus them out.
Scott can only think in binaries he’s not going to understand a comment like this
@@arcarc2663 for 3 kills he specifically reccomends NOT tunnelling one person. he reccomends switching between hooking the 2 same people to stay effecient.
I think you're forgetting something super important: The massive amount of healing in the game. Medkits are super cheap, boons, dead hard, off the record etc. If you play as a nice guy, then you have to deal with 30+ health states (4 survivors, 3 hook states, 2 health states plus all the bonus healing and dead hards). BUT
If you tunnel, it could potentially be as few as 4 health states to tunnel 1 guy out. After that, it's a snowball effect where they have less and less time to heal. That's why many killers naturally tunnel, they see it as more efficient.
Definitely taking your advice and tunneling more. Thanks scott 😇
Absolutely, the entire video he's just like "Oh if you kill one person you AUTO-WIN, 100% of the time" and I'm like "Damn son, I'm sold hook me up!" He tries to copium with some "You'll never get better at the game" but when every game I get outed by people who teabag and force me to push them out the exit gates when I play nice, I just do not fucking care what some RUclipsr thinks will make me a "better" player. They've gotta die.
@@TheKitsuneBlue Of all Survivor behaviors, the refusal to just leave the fucking game when the gate is already open and they are standing in it is by far the most annoying. Like holy shit, I didn't tunnel any of you and I'm not running CoB+Eruption, give me the respect as a human being to let me lose with dignity.
yall take the game way too seriously
@@Fasumbra I mean when I played I stayed behind just in case I can try and get 1 last save. Most aren't doing it just annoy you fragile killers
@@TheKitsuneBluethis is so embarrassing lmao
I think STBFL re: tunneling is more in regard to playing against teams where you have survivors taking hits for each other, even if it slows you down slightly at the time it makes it much harder for them to stall a tunnel as the game progresses, pretty rare to see survivors throw the obsession at you intelligently too
BBQ & Chili made a Killer's base goal in the game 4 Hooks instead of 4 Kills. It was so much easier to not be frustrated by losing when you could potentially still get 40k+ bloodpoints even if they all escape.
Scott can you please next time if you may increase the volume for the video that you react to. Your volume is perfect
When you said that survivors used to be way stronger, it reminded me of the time when exhaustion perkes would tick off cool down when in a chase. I started playing right when that got changed, but It was stupidly strong to have 2-3 sprint bursts or dead hards back then.
This is exactly what I want, I assume. I mean, I haven't watched it yet, but conceptually absolutely!
Let me explain effective tunneling with stbfl:
When sweaty teams see you tunneling they get hurt and everyone starts body blocking. You can get three stacks in less than 5 seconds. Just tunnel the obsession the body blocks come for free. If it doesn't work out that way, it's now a 3V1 and it doesn't matter whether you have stacks or not.
Before I even watch in regards to why otz says he feels tunneling is more necessary: literally every group of survivors i come across at whatever mmr grouping im in thats p10 or higher brings an item of some kind, usually medkits. Combine that with things like circle of healing or new botany and it feels impossible at times to balance running the fun off-meta build I want to without tweaking it to accomodate like bringing franklins or in the case of toolboxes, eruption. A lot of my matches with 3+ items from the start end up being having to find that weak link you mentioned in a previous video, but in times where I've tried to be nice and not heavily prioritize chasing that person, more often than not it just ends with teams full healing on larger maps and the game essentially being over from that point onward. Along with map nerfs, I think heal speed and item balnce seriously need tweaking becuase the combination of endurance prevalence and the ease of resetting after a killer dropping one chase is a little absurd, which only got compounded with the solo queue UI changes. I hate playing killer and feeling like I have to commit to every chase because if I dont they reset in 20 seconds and then a 2 gens pop because the people who spawned on them just stuck it out.
React Andy
but imagine i said it positively
SCOOTER IS NOW A REACT ANDY!!! HES MADE IT!!!
Listened through most of it bc I was in a match and vaguely interested but man was this way harder to get through than it needed to be. I get that it's a livestream clip or w.e and a lot of it is responding to chat but spending like 90% of the vid reiterating the same point only to end on "its anecdotal" gets tired pretty quick, esp. over a 50 min runtime.
Honestly Lucky Break is good but it is super dependent on map and position of when it activates. And it usually gets you that one escape then the killer usually is aware. It gets more value when paired with other things like Bite the Bullet which I will say I love that combo.
The main build I run on *any* killer to keep things fun for both sides is:
No Way Out.
Remember Me.
Nemesis.
Rancor.
To play this build right, it forces you to eat pallet stuns on purpose-- without Enduring. You want to tunnel the person who is currently the obsession until you hook them, then go get a new obsession by being stunned, and do the same to them. If you can't manage to get them to stun you, just go for unique hooks like BBQ. There is no generator slow down in this build, and instead is traded off for gate slow down. This lets you have 76 extra seconds to hunt people down after they would have won, even if they're coordinated enough to have someone on the exit gate as soon as the last generator is finished. Over a whole minute is huge. Your main goal the entire game? Get your end-game mori. Your bonus objective? Get more. Rancor with Nemesis lets you change your obsession, even if the first died, allowing you to continue doing more murder.
In some cases, I also switch out Remember Me for Lightborn, in the expectation that they'll go for a lot of flashlighting/flashbanging/mines. It also makes you that much more intimidating when they do get that pallet stun and try to blind you after, only to realize they extended the duration you can see their aura for after you destroy the pallet.
It doesn't slow down generators or healing, so it doesn't feel horrible to fight as survivor.
It has a built in "Goal" for the killer.
It can turn losing games into four kills.
You'll have more moris in your games guaranteed.
It promotes chasing all survivors, and not just one; the sooner you can fully stack Remember Me and No Way Out, the sooner you can play the game without as much restriction.
Proud to say I watched the whole thing, but the sound effect at 44:03 really caught me off guard XD Love the vid style though it felt a lot more casual and back and forth for discussion that I like :)
I think it was him LOL
@@feral.o7 it absolutely was, didn’t mean to make fun of it I just got so confused when I heard it at first XD
I like this format of Scott Jund discussion videos.
I genuinely like this style of content so much and I won't lie, I have now reinstalled the game to play again.
The community can be so exhausting when you just wanna chat or discuss topics. It's like so many people are split up into either "killer" or "survivor" and won't just have a good / fun / reasonable chat like this.
“It takes me 3hrs to get up”
That’s so relatable wtf💀
Tunneling is in part worse because in so many videos Otz makes, he talks about how good tunneling is, and how important it is to get one person out of the game in his streak videos. I think he has normalized it by saying it's something you need to do to win.
I only play Killer and I'd choose to try and get my 4 stacks instead of tunneling someone out (usually at hook exchanges)
I think the whole tunneling problem is a bit more complicated than "DS is worse now". A lot of killers tend to get VERY upset over any survivor change (Just look at how many killer players are upset over the HUD changes). In turn, they tunnel more as if to "ruin their fun". DS being worse only helped that to begin with. A lot of killers just tunnel to be dicks, that's how it is in my experience. Killers tunnel and camp just to punish the survivor for being good and "out-smarting" them once. I played a game earlier and my friend hole'd a doctor and they got RELENTLESSLY tunneled and camped. I remember a few games where I had a really good chase and just got tunneled and proxy'd because the killer just wanted to (even though they WERE playing nicer before said chase). DS being worse, as I said, only made this EVEN EASIER.
I don't think its as simple as "DS worse now. me tunnel more". I think its genuinely some killer players tend to just be dicks to survivors in the average "skill level" of DBD. There's also content creators that constantly say how "Yeah if you get the game into a 3v1 you've basically won" that re-iterates how tunneling is a simple and easy way to win. Even if they're not trying to be mean and they're playing for the win, the average player that cares about winning will think "Okay, the easiest way to win is to tunnel someone out because Otzdarva said so".
It's not "because otzdarva said so," tunneling is legitimately the easiest way to win. If someone gets killed at 4 or 5 gens and you're not absolute dogwater, you're getting at least a 3k.
@@107frenchy My point isn't if it is or isn't the most effective way to win. My point is that people will mindlessly do what a content creator says without even putting the thought or idea into WHY people like Otz will do said things.
I would love more of these longer live discussions
About Decisive Strike, I really like the suggestion that was once made on Reddit, in which the perk could work around a token system. Your number of tokens are the same as the number of available generators, for each repaired generator you'd lose a token. Each token would represent 1 second of stun after a successful proc. This would absolutely delete tunneling as an option at 5 or 4 gens, and even deter it at 3 gens.
Since there are 7 gens in the game, the smallest stun would be 2 seconds, which wouldn't even happen because when 5 gens are completed, Decisive Strike would be disabled, making the actual shortest stun last about 3 seconds.
If a killer tunneled at 5 gens, they'd risk a 7 second stun.
I recently did a day where I didn't camp and tunnel then another day where I basically only camped and tunneled and honestly I had waaaaaaay more fun camping than chasing, instead of going through tons of op loops and perks they had to come to be and strategize around what I'm doing instead of me having to do it
The BBQ stacks argument is COPIUM. Current DS being a joke and unpopular is way more impactful than this BBQ nonsense, you could tunnel and get 4 stacks anyway.
on the bbq thing, before it was reworked, killers went out of there way to get hooks on everyone. since the meta shake up or whatever you wanna call it, killers tunnel way more than they used to and I honestly contribute it to the fact that's 1. easier to do now and more rewarding and 2. because BBQ & Chili no longer rewards you for hooking four different survivors
I'd like to point out a few things which might help you understand why people think Otz endorses tunneling:
1) he thinks Make Your Choice is a "nice guy" perk. As you noted, MYC forces the killer to return to hook in order to get value out of the perk. Even the devs know this perk is the tunneler's best friend because even the wording is implicit on the perk's function "you or the guy you rescued". Meaning that to use this perk as a "nice guy" first requires the rescuing survivor to give themselves up willingly since the unhooked player will be much easier to find and likely has fewer hooks remaining before being eliminated.
2) Otz mentions specifically his Artist build he used to achieve his 50 game win streak. It's "not *ENTIRELY* focused on tunneling" (emphasis added). Right here, Otz makes an endorsement for tunneling as a means to achieve his win streaks in addition to admitting that other builds on other killers were more focused on tunneling. Remember, when Otz was win streaking, he was playing by different rules. At the time, he counted wins not based on pips (win condition at the time) but strictly based on kills. Tyde Tyme pointed this out both explaining why, at the time, Otz's win streaking was farcical and somewhat misleading to his audience.
3) Otz had a complete series on win streaking. This means Otz played focusing only on winning and nothing else, a practice which requires the use of low-skill high reward playstyles in order to accomplish. Otz at the very least popularized win-streaking which has had a cascading effect on how killer's play the game. If Otz really wants to know why practices like camping and tunneling are so popular, he only has himself to blame.
4) Otz's "No perk, no addon, 30s afk experiment", where he was trying to see if the game was survivor sided or not. Sadly, Otz had no interest in a real experiment and used it as an excuse to see if he could force wins under those conditions. I did a complete analysis of his "experiment", I'll provide it here as well. What Otz's "experiment" did show, however, is that Killer's can force wins under virtually any circumstance if they camp, tunnel, and/or slug. Anyone who saw his "experiment" will logically extract this conclusion and this is seen in other content creators' versions of the experiment, with those camping, tunneling, and slugging performing very well and those who didn't performing abysmally.
Video analying Otz's "experiment: ruclips.net/video/alDFgEXwwTE/видео.html
Conclusion: Otz has demonstrated a tacit, if not open and outright, support for the practices of camping, tunneling, and/or slugging. There are moments in his gameplay videos where he can be heard saying "we need to camp" or "I'm going to have to tunnel" or the like. These moments are common enough that anyone who regularly watches Otz knows exactly what i'm talking about. So just to clear up any confusion on this matter. The reason why people think Otz endorses tunneling is because he has and he does.
So ironic for BHVR to claim that they wish to stop tunneling and camping, while also destroying one of the best and healthiest anti-tunnel perks in the game. So gross.
I attempted to use DS for a recent Rift challenge to keep myself alive so that I could escape with Vittorio, and not in five seconds was I immediately knocked down again and removed from the game for the first few minutes of it. Literal complete waste of a perk slot.
Off the Record is no competition to what DS used to be. If a killer really wanted to tunnel, they'd knock your OtR out of your hands immediately upon being unhooked, yet everyone shaped it up to be an op perk when it first came out. It does absolutely nothing but make you even more appealing to the killer to tunnel out.
I will say with NOED, I think it is still good enough to get the initial pressure in the end game. Sometimes all you need is the one down to hook someone further into the map away from the gates and you can snowball, even if the totem is cleansed.
Facts. Killers act like they can't get kills when you can literally stick at it and 4k in the endgame even if everyone was alive. I don't even use gen perks. Is Discordance a gen perk? I use that all the time but still, most of the time survivors kill survivors, if you solo q enough then you know lol
for the noed point, while it is true that you could say that the aura has a trade off of making survivors more likely to stay in the game longer, that is only really true by itself, in the endgame build that was shown no way out is already forcing survivors to stay in the game longer so the positive of the trade off is far less relevant
I like this video format, I like seeing how you get your conclusions.
The thing with lucky break, is that u can still hear the grunts. So killer that lose them would be dumb imo.
Lots of people still use DS. It can still be effective. At worst it buys time. At best, it can facilitate an escape, combined with loops and/or bodyblocks. OTR into DS into DH is super strong. Tunneler's nightmare.
I think the NOED nerf was overall good for the game.
Absolutely but especially for solo queue players. And to address strong killers like Nurse and Blight
@@lovelysix6296 strong killers don't need NOED though lol, they should be winning before endgame in MOST cases anyways. Low tier killers leaned on NOED as a crutch to get "free wins" with a sudden 4 man slug or something.
Scott, I completely disagree. Tomatoes are classified as s fruit, so therefore salsa is a fruit cup, NOT a salad like you so wrongly inferred at 34:12 .
But on a serious note, I agree that people need to watch the vid before commenting, like you said in the intro. Hope the opening got a laugh . . .
Really smart approach - looking for the reason for tunneling: Because it's good and efficient. So to end tunneling you need to make it not that way.
As a survivor I am much less afraid or upset about noed now. Its still a very strong hex perk. But its more of a psychological nerf. It feels more overcomeable. Still a time sink to deal with. But not impossible on a map like swamp anymore. What happens after its cleansed is still up to the survivors and killers. I guess its better for everyone really. because its not a "gtfo" alarm anymore.
4:20 this was me. I've played this game since pre-nurse, back in 2016. I used to play this game in stints, I'd play for 4 weeks, quit for 5 months, resume and repeat. Every time I came back I'd have cap BP, spend them, use BBQ & Chile to farm up points. Actually don't understand why they removed the BP bonus from this perk. The game isn't competitive, it's a log in play for an hour type of fun game. Weird change.
BBQ part "oh it promotes hunting all 4 survivors" sure thing Otzzz
OH yes killers so sweaty for BP. Killed 2, slug the 3rd to get 4th one so he can hook em and drag on the game of 4th survivor to be found.
Camping has become more proxy camping, like Wesker / Knights.
If I had an endgame build I always just felt better knowing "ok I gotta try really hard cause I only got 1 or 2 perks but if I do well in the match the last ones won't matter and if I do bad they'll be there to help me". Idk if anyone else thought like that but I did
My takeaway: Just to add insult to injury in the many negative things about the community, a good chunk of the DBD community also has problems with verbal comprehension.
Outstanding.
Imo, the only big flaw in Otz's game he used as an example is because _everything_ was against him in that match.
He was against a SWF.
He was on Coldwind (most Survivor-sided map)
Half his build was worthless. Half of his perks were completely useless and it was borderline a throwing build.
He played as Demo, you can't get more "average" than that. Especially on a _massive_ map like that, setup Killers suffer.
If his goal was to demonstrate why tunnelling was more appealing, he should have went with a more "common" match where he isn't at a disadvantage by default.
Scott, please, as an avid stbfl user, stbfl isn’t a perk that straight up does *NOTHING* until 6-8 stacks it gives you value at even one stack by shortening chases that bit more or by letting you leave a chase earlier when hitting and running, so you can take your “stbfl isn’t good for tunneling because you get few stacks” thing and -SHOVE IT SO FAR UP YOUR- reconsider your opinion after reading my opinion
i never said it didnt? its still useful for tunneling. i didnt really indicate otherwise
@@ScottJund you did *act* like you thought that was the case, so I made an assumption, my bad.
You opinion is based, Alright, Respectfully and admittedly I watch your streams very often, but when I don't you're always playing dwight a lot. I think that your opinion about the game being mostly survivor-sided might be due to the fact you are playing one of the most powerful survivors in the current meta, I have no doubt that you have played all the survivors a bunch of times, but it seems to me like you enjoy playing dwight the most, I believe that as soon as you dedicate to some weaker survivors, you'll understand the arguments that Zubat is making.
Smh classic vile Scott playing the most unbalanced survivor in the game
@@noahfriedman9468 I know right?
Late comment but around 4:27 you express doubt that BBQ & Chili was used more for Bloodpoints than it was for victory. And I get that, the more invested players definitely used it when appropriate but as someone who back then still needed a lot of Bloodpoints (and returning to the game almost 6 years later needs a lot more) I was always running it for the bonus Bloodpoints. Back in 2017-2018 before I stopped playing, I was adamant that We're Gonna Live Forever was the best survivor perk and that BBQ & Chili was the best killer perk simply to help you unlock more perks for all your characters on either side. It was a bit of a meme I ran with but I also was serious that getting 50-100% more BP every game was increasingly more valuable the less time you had in the game. I did also fairly mention that gameplay wise it wasn't optimal (well BBQ definitely could be) but it'd help you progress faster.
I know it's anecdotal but I was a genuine advocate for using it early. I even joked about how they nerfed David's best perk when I finally reinstalled this game and someone was like yeah Dead Hard is a bit different and I joked, "Who cares about Dead Hard? Where's my bloodpoints? I got new perks to unlock." I have a feeling some other players who wanted to "finish" the grind of teachables and having every perk at 3 also felt this way, no way for me to really know how common that actually was though. Most people cared about having a satisfying game, which I do too, but dangit "number go up."
Anyway, love your videos and streams throughout the years though I rarely say anything lol. You're one of the best!
28:30 the answer is that players have gotten more skilled not only at doing generators but also at looping the killer. Killers can’t keep up because the survivors have the numbers once they reach a certain skill level. Perks barely matter at that point.
I wish you actually got to his game because at no point did he need to tunnel off hook. He made mistakes and lost then said "see i should've tunneled the Meg"...when there were 2 gens left.
I like this reaction style video. I would definitely be interested in seeing some more man
i find it so weird how they take the BP bonus off BBQ and i believe was on WGLF and then add in a prestige system that goes up to 100 which is like a bit over 1 mil per level
I like Otz and He's a master on what he does but jesus, these points are weak. Scott is right, the only reason people are tunneling SAFELY is because Decisive strike is rare now, some like to make a point about an entire SWF and how scrims "have" to tunnel and camp someone into second stage but that is far from a common skill level you'll find in a match. If the stun was reverted this discussion would be over.
When Otz said perks I believe he was referring to killer perk changes, not specifically survivor perks; as he went on to explain.
Glad you mentioned you cut him off though
Maybe it's because killer isn't harder, but it's WAY more stressful now. Maybe tunneling if successful helps alleviate some of that stress? Everyone talks about killer being easier... so why do I enjoy solo survivor more? Even before the survivor info update I found it less stressful and more fun. For a small amount of time after the meta change I found killer more fun, before the current meta was established. It's harder on killer to not focus on "winning" (Killing Survivors) than it is for survivor (escaping). And I also say matches are more often too won sided. As killer I find more often I stomp or get stomped on, with a rare in between. At least as survivor if I feel we aren't winning, I feel more comfortable either focusing on my challenges or just trying to do enough to get a high amount of bloodpoints.
I hope I made sense. I'm just spitballing an idea from my own experience.
The thing is that killer was never not stressful, but that's the thing. You can't expect to have chill games while you are against 4 people it's just not the way things work.
This game is simply cursed by the "not-competitive game" label, because it excuses so many ridiculous balance issues. This inconsistency makes people win some matches easily, while in others they can't win unless they chose to tunnel (why the fuck is that a choice?)
1. Hidden MMR that doesn't do shit
2. Unbalanced, random maps
3. Inconsistent and/or outdated killer powers (Trapper grass issues, Nurse vs Dredge etc)
4. Many completely useless perks
5. Inconsistent objectives (totem RNG, different gen and heal times, benefits of tunneling, hatch, etc)
6. SWF benefits
7. Inconsistent, as well as stupid addons and items, with usefullness not matching their rarity
8. And last but not least: *random item and addon rarity in matches*
The reason tunneling has become even more common than it was and is more effective is because DS was gutted and rendered useless in 99% of scenarios. It's that simple. Same thing happened with camping when base BT was so short.
Agree with your takes here 100%. I was confused by Otz's video when I watched it.
I don't think so. Tunneling occured before decisive strike nerf. People still tunneled even when decisive strike was used every game. The difference was that decisive strike made weaker killers LOSE for tunneling. That no longer happens. Decisive strike no longer carries bad survivors to the win. If you want to counter tunneling, you legit need to be good at the chase to make killer lose for tunneling. I think tunnelling occurs because its superior then spreading hooks. Spreading hooks is inefficient time investment for killer to win. As a result, people tunnel because its superior option to not tunneling. that is also why decisive strike was strong because it counter-act the efficient way to win as killer. The decisive strike nerf removes reward for equipping DS because the difference between having DS equipped and not having DS equipped is minimal. that is why less survivor use it because other perks are comparatively superior.
I 100% agree, thanks Scott. The nerf to ds is the main cause. And eruption, call of brine makes 3v1 impossible.
There is no longer any incentive for people to not tunnel. Getting the first guy out is the easiest way to win, especially with the new meta.
ETA: agreed on ds, it's trash now. The stun is only the length of the animation now and you get immediately downed. Useless.
I don't think tunneling in this context can be taken as hardcore tunneling, i.e. not even going for free downs on other survivors. I think we need to see this from the perspective of a tunneler who still wants to win. If the killer goes for survivor X whenever they can, but still chases other people when X is hooked ir doendo this pretty much allows for most of Otz's points and perk usage to still work just fine and get their actual value from tunneling. You wouldn't be tunneling just to tunnel someone, you still wants to win so you would do other things when survivor X isn't "available"
I love otz. however give me a moment to explain something. otz has a TON of viewers and people really look up to him. killers take his advice ALL the time, plenty of people have learned how to play this game directly from otz, his word is gospel to them. due to this, basically anything that otz talks about in his videos then has a huge impact on how a large portion of the killer population is playing their matches at that current time.
I really wish he would put a lot less focus on streak challenges, and that he would put more focus on the idea that having a 2 kill game is still a successful match. with all these streaks, and all this talk about "tunnelling feeling more necessary than ever" in the current meta, the impact is there are a ton of killers out there who think they NEED to 4k every game in order to be a good killer, and they feel validated in their tunnelling in order to win because of the way they see otz playing all the time.
it's really frustrating. you don't need to win every game. in fact, you shouldn't be winning every game; even the devs think that a 60% win rate is more ideal than a 100% win rate for killers. it's incredibly unhealthy for DBD if we continue this way.
killers, you dont need to win every game, just like survivors go into literally every match perfectly fine with the idea that they more than likely aren't going to escape depending how we all play together.
"it never was easier for killers.." - alot of killers disagree hard with that statement and bring their hardships up when they justify tunneling from the get go. I can pretty much recite any argument in the forums because they all go the same. "Uh, killer is so super hard right now that's why we tunnel, stop crying survivor main" .. every single time ..
Glad to hear that there are other opinions among people with alot of experience in the game :)
Back in my days every killer knew that they are going to be stabbed 3/4 times per trial without even tunneling or getting a single hook stage.
How people were loosing as survivors with all the ridiculous map designs, shit tons of pallets, killer slugishness... it's beyond me xD
I think there are 2 big reasons that tunneling is the current route to go. DS being shit, and the lack of incentives to hook other survivors. Scott I don't think you credit BBQ and Chili enough as a perk that incentivises going for other survivors. Other than the ultra giga sweat killers out there who usually didn't even run bbq, most killers would either go for the unhooker for stonks, or use the aura reveal to go stop people doing gens. The incentives of pop and BBQ made a big difference in persuading killers to go for other survivors. Without the incentives and the lack of ds usage anymore its so tempting to go for the person unhooked if you don't know what else to do.
no one uses D/S. both dead hard and decisive are bad now. survivors get more "work on gens you slaves" perks, while our fun "lets interact with killer" perks get nerfed. so, were basically slaves. dont @ me
"I think if you're about to lose, pulling out those strats, no one can really give you shit for it. If it's end game and you're camping a guy on the hook, no one's gonna give you shit for that". Have you interacted with the majority of DBD survivors. I am of course joking but can't say enough how many times I've played fair and both gates are opened and no one was dead yet so when I proxy my hook, everyone shames it. "You're suppose to go chase someone away from the hook". "look bud, I'm playing Sadako and purposefully went after different targets. If I did that then all 4 escape since I'm not using anything to one shot". "you're suppose to let us leave". "sounds entitled if you ask me". They do provide amusement from time to time though
This is a nice live discussion format. Keep doing these, Scott 👍🏼
Scott trying to be right 24/7 is so funny to me 😂💀
Do you try to be wrong? Wtf
@@ScottJund and he responded LMFAOOO 💀
@@chaotictense5541 🤩😆😅🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Am I wrong in thinking the first ds nerf also saw an increase in camping and tunneling? I seem to recall when there was no obsession in a match killers knew there was no ds so it was changed to always have an obsession.
OG DS didn't even have anything to do with tunneling. If you were the obsession you could use it on your very first down, and if were not the obsession you had to wiggle to (I think) 25% and then immediately use it.
@@kaib6998 A lot of people don't know that DS has been nerfed like 50 times.
"First DS Nerf" is pretty clearly referring to the one that made DS turn off if you did something that wasnt conducive to getting the killer off youe ass.
@@kaib6998 we both know they're not talking about the first ever need that required you to be hooked first. They provided enough context clues. There's no need to be pedantic
@@TheDeenoh I think I didn't articulate my point very well, I was never trying to be pedantic or anything. My comment was rather meant as some kind of fun fact for people who didn't play back then, to emphasize how well balanced dbd is in it's current state compared to old dbd (It was a mess, but somehow a lovable mess).
I'm sorry if I came off rude, I did understand what the original commenter said and actually I wasn't even right. According to the wiki the very first version of DS didn't require you to be the obsession, anyone could use it instantly, but I don't remember that phase at all tbh. The change to make it an obsession perk only came a few months later in patch 1.4.0.
I feel seen when you went into 'I don't see how you can say it's the most necessary it's ever been - did you see what they USED to have??' That's me, every single time people bitch and moan about what we have now.
'bAcK iN mY dAy...'
I don’t agree with the whole point of killers not caring so much about 4Ks in the past, did we all forget about the hatch standoffs for the 4k that were a common occurrence lol
Not gonna lie. When a P100 sends me to a bad map i camp.
I don't care.
There is a level of stress as a Killer main that is not worth it.
I think even if it's an anecdotal single game, it's a good indicator that just running around and not tunneling a survivor out of the game won't win you the game even if you can win chases quickly, but without the survivors making major mistakes.
But honestly maybe that says more about how good Pain Res or gen-kicking builds are.
How does he not understand that the point of STBFL is to enable you to quickly down the guy you tunnel so you can chuck them back on the scourge hook?
my point is if you start by tunneling one guy they're almost dead before you even get max stacks and other chase perks like SF Enduring, Bamboozle, Dissolution etc can help you down the person faster with no startup time
Decisive strike doesn’t deserve the hard skillcheck for a 2 second chance
I see tunneling as a shortcut to easy downs. Seeing as you can sorta control the positioning of players.
Then again everyone's definition is different, tunneling no longer takes focusing just one person so the entire perk discussion is too honest lol.
I really like your usual discussion videos, but in this live one without preparation you seem to miss a lot of points that you could figure out by just thinking about it a little bit more. And ngl it annoys me a little bit. I rarely disagree with any of your videos, I can think of maybe 1 I've had a different opinion, but this one I've disagreed with almost the entirety of the video until the chat pointed something out (which I'm sure you'd figure out by yourself); also not really an Otz stan who defends every point he makes, since I disagreed with the original opinion just as you did. I personally like the more thought out videos, but there's also a lot of people enjoying it; I just thought I might throw my grain of sand to the conversation.
what actual points are you referring to? i doubt you disagreed with literally everything i said in the video
Prince of darkness (think its called)
Is also good at winning chases.
Removes scratch, sounds and blood when stunning a killer
I don’t care if people tunnel so long as we had strong anti tunneling perks for solo queue players; however, they keep nerfing these perks like DS and reassurance. So dumb
DS is a joke of a perk now, you get value for like 3 seconds then go down in a massive open area
I only really tunnel for the following reasons,
Accidentally cos I’m trying to hook trade as spirit and I just didn’t register which person it was,
If the team is both better than me and annoying, but generally only if they gift it me,
I know it’s good to do it, I just want to get better and I don’t know if that strategy will help me when really I want to work on game sense and tracking.
I will say tho that as a spirit main, DS is basically not even a perk, absolutely don’t care about it it’s like a joke the distance gained.
I very happily proxy camp because it feels foolish not to just stay local to the area where action is happening.
Generally with perks though, I like powerful effects that reward you for spreading pressure in game with things like devour hope or out of game like bbq
I'm fine with BBQ and WGLF getting their stacks back. But anyone who pretends BBQ led to less tunneling is deluding their self. Tunneling the first person out = game now in your favor = more likely to get all stacks = higher chance to slug it out at the end to find the fourth stack.
The only reason why Make Your Choice has lost relevance is because of built in BT. It's a shadow nerf to MYC, limiting the immediate benefit of going back to hook such as with Hag traps. it allows the unhooked survivor to body block for their rescuer instead of the normal other way around.
I think the better sentence is that more people are realizing the value of tunneling and getting into a 1v3 with the addition of scourge hook, ds nerf, and stuff like that.
At lower MMR it was definitely more common and has gone down quite a bit.
34:36 "if it was good, people would use it"
*Cough* lucky break *cough cough*
Gens are getting done faster only in the sense that the game has become less casual for survivors, so more are actually focusing on gen rushing. Hyperfocus hasn't really done anything beyond... raise awareness? Tunneling has become more of an issue because the game is getting more competitive with less room for error, and the game's design means a motionless target you have instant access to will always be the biggest weak point in a team. Especially when your early goal is to get a gun off the field.
I play more survivor than killer, yet I win more playing killer than survivor.