definition of gimmick: 1. n "a trick or device intended to attract attention, publicity, or business" 2. v "alter or augment with an extra device or feature." tbh I dont think calling it a gimmick is up to date, specially in a game like ultimate. I see your point plab, you want to know what makes the character either "special " or "different" from others, maybe was the wrong wording. I guess gimmicky would fit best in Melee or 64 because the roaster was very vanilla and more old school. Doing a video like that in ultimate would not work, rather we just call out the best move of each character so we exclude the honest ones regardless of tier lists.
@@Magic0YTid say theres still gimmicks in ult, especially in the dlc characters. jokers arsene is an extra feature. steve had to have every stage rebuilt for his blocks. kazuya is a gimmick. then theres things like bowsers tough guy mechanic or macs KO punch. i agree that people call things gimmicks that arent gimmicks too often but they still exist
I was going to say this too. His kit is very unorthodox as well. The frog employs a lot of fundamentals in their play but not enough in my opinion to classify as a fundies char.
I'd say he's a fundies character, as a result of having no shield he has to space a lot better than the opponent to both build damage and kill, especially due to how unsafe most of his moves are on shield. He's also pretty flow charty in advantage in general which is also changed throughout percent windows. A lot of his nuetral requires you to just be the better player with better movement, spacing, and option coverage.
I mostly agree but I do think Greninja grab is really good; it’s pretty large (greninja pivot grab is insane), up throw is either great for combos or juggling, fthrow nullifies shield at ledge >150%. D throw also sets up rps at kill percents.
Amen. Lucina and wolf feel very solid and straightforward and don't seem like they need crazy combo game or super-technical game play to be decent. Greninja is the opposite of that. He feels weird and probably can't win just by positioning well and making good/patient choices.
Greninja might seem like a strange pick, but he truly is a character who is heavy on fundamentals. Good movement is the most important thing a Greninja needs, which can only come from a solid grasp on how to play neutral, push advantage state, and mitigate disadvantage. This is especially important because of his inability to rely on shield like so many other characters do.
I usually define a fundies character by just "no gimmicks." It's a general blanket term but it works. Basically, if the character itself is gimmicky to a point that it's actively teaching you bad habits, it's not fundies. Y'know, general purpose characters. Stuff like slow movement speed of Ganon or Cloud limit isn't really a gimmick. It just teaches you different approaches and how to use payoffs. And then there's Kazuya, where his entire game plan revolves around 1 move and what you can do to capitalize on it. Or DK, where you're given 4 spikes, lots of armor, a move that grounds the opponent and ding dong still exists. Or Bowser's Tough Guy. Or all the FGC character's auto turn around, completely warping both player's gameplay in benefit of the FGC character.
I guess they have a gimmick, but is aegis considered a fundies character? They have a very basic moveset, and they are good for teaching things like spacing and when not to approach
I personally think Lucina is the best example. All of her moves are incredibly basic. Aside from Side B and Neutral Air, Every move is a single hit. Her only cheese is Neutral B, which if you really want to be technical, could still be a fundamental. Technically, since every character or most characters have a form of cheese, having a basic cheese option teaches you the basics of what a cheese option is, but I digress. She teaches you every major aspect of the game. Spacing, Legdetrapping, Edgegaurding, Sheild Pressure, Out Of Shield Options, Basic Combos, Movement, Shorthop, Baits, and can even help learn the uses of a RAR with Back Air. The best way I can describe it is, Lucina is everything you need, but nothing you don’t.
8:46 His list of fundamentals characters Mario, Lucina, Marth, Pit, Dark Pit, Corrin, Doctor Mario, Ike, Greninja, R.O.B., Wolf, Palutena, Cloud, Inkling, Joker
Cloud is NOT a fundies character, he has the frame data of Mario with the range/killpower of Ike. Cloud just mashes like crazy, hugely carries mid-level players especially. There's a reason his matchup spread is full of matchups where the opponent doesn't feel like they can even play the game because his pressure is just so fucking oppressive.
If we get a "Smash 6," it really needs to include a robust tutorial mode. A mode that explains everything this in this video, in game, while allowing players to practice in real time.
Yep, agreed: - Side-B is a braindead gimmick; should NOT be a kill move! - His two projectiles arguably put him in the "Trap" character category - Has extremely good flowchart for kill option (down throw into 50/50) He's close...the above 3 items (especially the side b) would need to be tweaked for him to be fundamental.
@dazed d ROB is actually a very hard character to use. The 0 to death combo takes a lot of skill and ROB needs it when he's in a bad matchup. Wolf is by far a much easier character.
i think marth/lucina are the quintessential fundamentals characters, you aren't going to win with them against a skilled player unless you yourself are skilled.
i 100% noticed this too but never knew what it was called or had any good idea on what it was, this is exactly how i've always described Pit as a Pit main, he has nothing special about him but has everything needed to be able to win any match, consistently too, a character who's only as good as you make him
I had always stuck with jump man in every installment and I love him. He is the best character in the whole franchise to learn the fundamentals of the series in each instalment.
I play lucina most of the time since she's balanced but when I need to change gears I usually rely or Terry to deal with certain matchups I'm at a disadvantage. Very nice video and everything was explained thoroughly and in depth
@@deanoor9391 oh I can keep going though, let’s not forget lucina. Who is just Marth in easy mode. Oh he said, palu? Now that is absolutely crazy guy. Yeah I totally think it’s balanced that she has 4 amazing special moves that are way better than they have any right to be, an invincible DA and back air, nair poops that are extremely easy to preform and almost always prioritize over any other moves. Need I explain more?
@@hubbleworks7872 What I am hearing from you is just how the characters you mentioned are strong or high tiers, and that's something that I believe people let their frustrations playing against a character define their view of the whole character
its like you get annoyed each time you play against palutena but that's not the point of the video, the point of the video its that these characters have a good enough balance of tools for these characters to promote the creation of good habits and practicing fundamentals
All a fundamental character is, is a character with straightforward standard moves (relies on fundamental ability;running, guarding, grabbing, throwing, dodging, standard hits,) and abilities that can translate to skill gain across the board. Most of the sword fighters and rushdowns are fundamentals, no zoner is a fundamental by definition because their gameplay is not the standard and mastery of a zoner won’t necessarily translate to any other character. Their actual stats have nothing to do with being a fundamental character it’s entirely gameplay based.
Cloud has become my secondary above young link and PT because I love his playstyle and how fundamentals are what makes him good, I guess my main joker is also somewhat a fundamentals character but his combo game is much more complex
Mewtwo is also a fundies char I would argue. He has a swordy-esque moveset and his specials are basically a smörgåsbord of abilities that are mirrors of what other characters have.
i actually agree with that statement, i really think that a character with huge kill moves, a charge shot that does 31%(talent), very good recovery, one of the stupidest forward airs in the game, a reflector that is a command grab that sets up for super early stocks, massive disjoints that arent really offset by tail hitbox, and a watered down free deku nut(talent), is quite skillful.
@@J.S.M-zo2bw true ig but he still has some cheese that I wouldn’t call fundies, I think any character with a projectile that does over at least 12% max is leaning on that move a little too hard
@@hubbleworks7872 A projectile you have to charge. The base damage of a shadow ball isn’t 12% either. Also, confusion doesn’t have anything true off of it until around 140%, so it isn’t some kind of freebie. You have to read your opponent to get anything great out of it prior to that, which definitely falls under fundamentals. Having a great fair doesn’t make him any less fundamental. Again, Ike and Palu are fundy chars and they had the best nairs in the game at one point. Lastly, disable requires your opponent to be grounded and facing you. It is not something you mash, it requires set ups and reads.
@@Bluerock121 lol top you dead ass said 15, he’s not even better than Lucina. And a lot of people say he’s top 25-30 he’s not that great has a lot weaknesses In this game, no reasons to think he’s top tier. And about cloud being easy, he’s easy to pick but I don’t think he’s easy at top level bro
@@inked9361 The official tier list, made by several dozens of top players, ranks Cloud at 10th, above all of them. That's maybe a little exaggerated, but he's certainly very very powerful.
I don't believe there is such a thing as a fundies character, only a fundies player. Every character has a variety of tools and combos that makes them unique, but the fundamental aspects of the game such as shield, grab, etc, are available on every character. So a fundies player will understand how the game plays, where other players might focus on other character specific things like spacing, zoning, and crazy combos. Basically what I'm saying is that there is no fundies characters because fundies is an aspect of every character.
There are characters that teach you the game better than others. A few of these characters are "all arounder" characters but they are called fundies not cause of their playstyle. It's cause they can HELP your fundies be better. That's what he is talking about.
Then you don't understand the game very well. Many characters have built in gimmicks/mini-games that allow players to use as a crutch. Examples of skills + characters that can bypass that skill: - Fundamental skill: "Don't mash. Attack thoughtfully, because if I miss I will be open to getting hit." Character who can ignore this: Sheik. - Fundamental skill: "Space myself properly to KO opponent without getting hit in return." Character who can ignore this: Steve (e.g. minecart, etc) - Fundamental skill: "Use quick attacks to build up opponent's %. Then at kill percent, strategically use stronger attacks to get the KO." Character who can ignore this: Ganon And the list goes on and on. In some cases, this is completely fine because the character isn't that good to begin with (e.g. Ganon). In other cases, it's extremely odious, because players would otherwise be unable to place highly except for their character's skill-breaking gimmicks (e.g. Steve)
@@jeffersonian4 exactly. having a fundies-bypassing mechanic isn’t itself always a bad thing, it’s a problem when that mechanic isn’t balanced against a deficiency somewhere else (like you said, steve)
Fundies is stuff that applies to everyone, anything else is matchup knowledge. First you learn fundies, then you learn the matchup then you pay attention to player habits.
to me the fundie definition is simple : one taht does not have a gimmick that make the playstyle revol arround it (gimmick being a gameplan or a moove) one that need all fundamental of the game to be effective and thus have the tool to use them correctly on that in virtue of 1 and 2 can play borrow gameplan from anyother type of fighter
Actually if you understand the word fundamental it's pretty obvious what it means. A fundamental character would be one that specializes in the fundamentals of the fighting game engine in which it is based. Ryu and Mario for example. They can't be considered anything else because they don't specialize in one thing, rather they are in all around character which then lends itself to being a fundamental based character
This is something I’ve wanted talked about for a while: what exactly is fundies? Always seemed kinda vague when people throw it around but this video cleared it up a lot. Also, would Doc not fall into the camp of Little Mac or Chrom where there recoveries are so lacking that they won’t be considered a fundamentals character?
Doc has way better recovery than Chrom or Mac. He has two specials that allow you to rise in the air both up and down special. Doc is only bad because his movement speed is slow and his combos are generally only 2-3 hits max
@@codygruhl5548 doc has way worse air speed than both of them and his down b animation is like 100 frames so after he down b's you have 6 years to hit him. Also docs up and down b goes no where
@@rookeyji5177 Doc can still recover in more ways than Mac and chrom which is the point though. Having a wall jump is also another big factor in the differences in their recovery options
Doc is a "fundamentals" character because _if you don't know the fundamentals you're screwed._ (I don't actually know what doc is considered, but its probably not a fundamentals character... he plays more like a heavyweight).
Fundies is equivalent to wisdom. One must have knowledge that is then transformed into wisdom through experience. Knowledge is frame data, bread and butter combos, match up's, etc. This knowledge is then turned into wisdom by it being applied in real time in actual games. This will then lead to successes and failures that will verily lead to more wisdom through experiencing knowledge as being correct, incorrect, or irrelevant. So, Fundies are the culmination of wisdom. Wisdom is knowledge actualized . Knowledge is information.
I'd argue that Young Link also qualifies as a fundies character. While his zoning is excellent, it alone cannot win his game for him. He still needs to be close enough to get in and use melee finishers to end stocks. He needs his whole toolkit to win, and has to cover for his weak recovery and lack of reliable finishers
I think young link's gameplan of mostly zoning a keeping distance until it's time to take a stock isn't qualifiable for a fundies character. what makes young link so scary IS his projectiles and the various way he can mix up the way he throws. Sure you have to be close for fire arrow into fair to connect, but if your opponent backs up you can hold the charge and still hit them with an arrow to push your advantage. At the end of the day, even most zoners still have to play up close in order to take a stock, it's mostly how they play the entire match is what makes them classified to be a 'fundies' character.
Nah, he's too spammy to be a true fundies character. You can play him in a more rushdown, fundies-heavy way, but his optimum playstyle is too heavy on zoning for him to really be a fundies character. He's the closest thing to a fundies character out of the zoners, but he's still a zoner.
I think Joker definitely counts as a fundies character because as you said, he can't rely on doing the same move or gameplan over and over to win. If he doesn't utilize all his moves correctly and keep his approaches varied, he's gonna lose. Even Arsene doesn't change that. He's a power boost yes, but if you're doing bad at Joker with Arsene, getting Arsene will not magically make you do better at anything you were trying to do before. I also think Young Link would be a good example of a fundies character as they utilize every fundamental mechanic of the game to great effect and requires you to learn them all to improve with him.
@@chad762 you definitely can if you don't space it properly. And if you're spacing you run the risk of them moving away and whiff punishing you. Bair is Joker's best move but it's punishable like everything else in his kit. A lot of times it'll just blatantly whiff if you're not landing with it.
Cloud limit is a bit too cheesy for me to let him be a fundies character. "bUt itS n0t smaSh 4!" doesn't mean Cloud still can't limit camp. In fact since he has to burn it he has more chances to do so lol. Everything barring side smash being unpunishable is a nice perk I wish my main Dedede had as well XD Watch low-tier mains when they play, they aren't using fundies characters but because of what their character lacks they really have to download their opponent, play a perfect neutral, and squeeze every bit of use out of their undoubtedly worse kits
I don’t think, even fundies characters can camp. And you can punish his dash attack, dair, nair on shield, down tilt and up air. You can’t punish his bair most of the time tho, you taking about cloud as if he were un punishable in a lot of scenarios when he’s not. The only cheesy thing about cloud would be his up b, and again still on you deal with that .That’s how it works. But he’s a fundies character for sure
How is Cloud's limit "cheesy"? "Cheese" is getting KO with too little effort. Only way Cloud can get that is with Finishing Touch, and even then, opponent has to have at least 60-80%, and the move's frame data is so bad that almost no one ever hits it
@@jeffersonian4 I think the fact Cloud even has a meter mechanic is the cheese part. He may not be a dlc fighter anymore but his origins as one shine through. They toned it down from smash 4 but all his limit moves are still super specials he is granted for simply playing the game (or in his case, charging it manually when possible) plus he gets limit like 3 times a stock so that's nice. Not the most balanced mechanic I feel. Couple that with incredible disjoints, darn good framedata, kill power, damage output, and so on. He's a bit too good at everything for me to consider him a fundies character. Recovery may be booty but that's like his one weakness and it too can be mitigated with limit Not speaking with any hatred here. He's good but he isn't toxic like steve or min-min lmao. If my main had a limit mechanic I'd prob be singing a different tune
@@kaito2220 "Fundamentals" is not describing a character as either high tier or low tier. It's describing whether the player using that character needs to have good fundamentals in order to succeed with them. Steve is a good example of this: players do not need to have good fundamentals to excel with Steve. Regardless of what you think about Cloud's limit, or where he places on the tier list, players have to have good fundamentals in order to succeed with him.
@@jeffersonian4 Amen on the steve comment lol he def carries bad players I'm not saying Cloud is nearly that busted or that players with bad fundamentals are excelling with him. However I am saying his risk-reward is scewed much more in his favor than other purely fundies characters. because he's got all those pretty forgiving qualities. Alotta people play him for a reason lol
Hearing all of this, Ness is the opposite of a fundies character. That character is a character that is easy to play and pick up, but upon further improvement will not necessarily give you better results. Yet Ness is “reliable” in the sense that he kills with almost anything but moves a touch too slowly to be higher placed. Ness seems to make for high-tier jobbers while fundies characters can consistently win high-tier tournaments even if much less than those “with gimmicks”
Reminder that playing a fudies character doesn’t make a player better or worse than a non fundies character player, this arguement causes too much hate in the smash community when overall the better player will win, don’t take a loss too hard and just find the character you vibe with ❤
I find it hard to believe that Pit is a fundamentals character due to many opponents he struggles with. He has a good neutral and a good recovery, but it's mostly predictable and punishable. Not having a few degenerate options like almost every character put his utility at low placements.
@@JasonSmith-jv7wl And not only fits into, IS THE MOST FUNDAMENTAL of the characters, which is clearly intentional considering Pit is Sakurai's stepson. Seriously, a big issue Pit and Pittoo have is being TOO FAIR AND HONEST of fighters, too fundamental-oriented without any sauce or X-factor to make up for it.
@@N12015 People say how balanced ult is yet some characters we’re pretty obviously under and overtuned. I think they could have easily made adjustments to the Pits that would have made them high tier with just simple adjustments to damage and knock back growth. If they just got a bit more out of their exchanges it wouldn’t matter that they didn’t have some mechanic to boost them like many other characters.
@@JasonSmith-jv7wl Oh, i forgot another issue: THEY'RE INCREDIBLY INCONSISTENT. We all know how inconsistent his U-air is, but also applies to N-Air, F-Air, F-Smash and U-Smash. They have in theory the tools to be good, but in practice those tools tend to fail too often to make them good on a tournament setting.
@@JasonSmith-jv7wl yeah, he's the definiton of all rounder, but I feel that when people talk about "fundies characters" they usually mean REALLY good all-rounders. High- top tiers that have every tool to win and won't struggle too much with something
"...and weaponizing every tool in Cloud's kit to the absolute *limit,* while..." Answer me, Vars. Did you make this subtle pun on purpose? I like this.
If you want to learn fundamentals quickly, Shulk actually isn't a bad pick. A good number of his moves have enough end lag that you get punished for mistiming an attack or using the wrong Monado Art. In that sense, not knowing your fundamentals can be a trial by fire. At the same time, knowing your fundamentals and being able to execute accordingly can be extremely rewarding, serving as positive feedback to reinforce good habits. It's part of why I love playing as him so much; I enjoy being able to tell where I need to improve and see the results of my progress so clearly.
I realize he’s a lightweight, but wouldn’t pikachu be considered a fundies character? Maybe he’s too combo heavy, but he doesn’t really have win button like other characters and focuses on conditioning way more than most projectile characters
@@hubbleworks7872 I mean tjolt has insane damage build up if it’s not like it’s a kill move, and is more used for conditioning, but I will agree it is the least fundies part of his kit
To clarify further: Pikachu's moves come out so fast and have such little lag that he can continuously throw out hitboxes and not really care if they are hitting or not. (The word I think I was looking for before is "rushdown"). In contrast, a fundamentals character has to be more thoughtful about approach. Cloud's don't just rush in. Pikachu's do
@VarsIII where do you think Pika is in regards to being a fundies character? Even though he’s on Fox’s level of consistently good in smash as a franchise, he’s never frequently seen outside of 64. Do you think it’s because of how his aerials work that he’s not a fundies character?
Is Lucario not a Fundies character? Sure he has aura, but with the rage nerf it's not as busted as, say, Arsen. It massively boosts the range and lethality of his specials, yes, but that doesn't change that a whiffed side B will get him smacked, and he has to be behind to access that power so there's no shortcuts. I'd argue that while he has good projectiles, above average airspeed, and a strong comeback mechanic, he still relies on his fundamentals to play. He has very few setups and relies on adapting to the state of game.
GUYS SPAMMING BACK AIR W CLOUD IS NOT SKILL! SPAMMING YOUR FRAME 7 UP-B OUT OF SHIELD IS NOT SKILL! LIMIT AS A MECHANIC WAS NEVER SKILL AND NEVER WILL BE! THIS CHARACTER IS EASY ASF!!!!! (This is a joke.(kind of))
If your opponent knows the matchup and is a competent player he will punish Up B and edge guard cloud Parry his bad spaced bairs-frame11 punishable on parry if the cloud player didn’t space it perfectly Limit ?? just hold shield and adapt to the time, just 15 seconds, this is not smash 4. So for sure there are risks to play cloud in this game.
@@Ericspil790 not big ones. Back air is broken. Up b is completely spammable and broken. Limit is extremely polarizing. It removes his one weakness (recovery), gives him free stage control by forcing an approach, gives him non commital kill moves, buffs his atrributes
It sounds like it is easy to become predictable with a fundamental characters. A player learns one technique and sticks with it instead of exploring other options.
In my personal opinion, to be a “fundies” character, you need to have at least these qualities: 1. Average movement minimum (decent ground/air speed) 2. Decent mid range capabilities (either through disjoints like swords or through projectiles) 3. No possible true zero to deaths from on stage or similarly early killing combos (this eliminates characters like ROB, Mario, and Joker) 4. A threatening way to deal with opponents shielding (either through kill throws, shield break setups, and/or extremely safe moves on shield) 5. Decent out of shield (either through moves that are fast, long ranged, and/or cover cross ups) 6. Relatively simple and easy to learn combos that stay relevant throughout every skill level (things like your simple 2 or 3 piece combos) 7. No extreme gimmicks that fundamentally alter how the character plays or how others play against your character (includes anything from Steve block to Joker Arsene to Kazuya EWGF) Imo, the only fundies characters in Ult are Lucina, Pit/Dark Pit, Corrin, Wolf, Cloud, and surprisingly almost Bowser (personally I think tough guy, while a gimmick, is not very impactful in 95% of MUs)
10:39 I had to disagree here. The swordies like marth, Marth and MARTH have some terrible MU, like against Cloud, Sephi, Shulk or DK. Because his combo aren"t that great, his ability to tipper depends of the opponents DI ( if he know when and where to DI you won't get much tipper, i mean you can get some but it wont be the decesive one therefore not worth to have this tipper gimmick ). And even tho his neutral is okay, he is a very defensive character that doesn't approach well against character that have a better range than him at all. Like except for the very commital dash pivot f-tilt he won't be able to whiffpunish most of the time AAAAND won't be able to trade and win an interaction because of how bad his tipper hitbox is. So he will need to outplay a lot more his opponent that most of the character of the game needs to do to win even in their bad MU :x
What? I'll give you DK because his hurtbox is huge, but none of those other matchups are hard. And combo wise... What are you on? First of all, those characters are tall, so Nairplanes to F-smash are thing. Also it's easier to land falling Nair confirms. And furthermore, all of those characters struggle to escape juggle situations and Marth is one of the best characters in the game when it comes to juggling. Focus on frame trapping during advantage and you'll be in a much better position. Also... The recoveries on those characters... Marth can just edge guard them. Pretty easily, actually. Either with counter or forward air. Even DK can be dealt with this way. Heck, with DK, you can do some silly stuff like Nairplane to Nairplane to F-smash at like 0-10% I wanna say, for an easy corner carry to edge guard. Not saying the match up easy, mind you, but even in that match up, there's things you can do.
Welp, except for Sephi, i would love to see how your marth can juggle Cloud and his d-air, shulk and his monado or edgeguard Sephiroth consistently ( obviously i talk about some real players that have some work on their disavantage state, not some random masher that dont know that much about planning a game :x ). But yeah, we can always play the game regardless the MU. Ultimate is a very balanced game after all, but still, it doesn't mean that all the MU are even close to fair at all for everyone.
@@aegishdaego Cloud Dair hitbox is narrow and takes a minute to come out and Shulk's frame data is slow. Sure, monado can help him, but it's far from a get out of jail free card since that's mostly useful for escaping combos, not juggle situations. I mean I guess he gets a third jump, but still. And again, edge guarding is very easy against the characters you listed. For example, with Sephiroth, if he's within range to do the shorter version of his recovery, chances are you're close enough to him that you can snuff it out with a forward air since that move has faster frame data. If he's forced to recover low, then you can parry the octo-slash.
I have to disagree with 3 of your picks: Marth, Dr. Mario and Greninja. Marth is incredibly overreliant on sweetspots to work skewing his matchup chart significantly, Greninja lacks a shield and not being a fundamentals is the reason of his impopularity relative to his effectiveness, and Dr. Mario is definitely very polarized (and bad) in terms of matchups due to lacking both range, recovery and movility. PS: I now want a "Why no one plays Pit/Pittoo?" Because the foundies, while popular, is not a foolproof formula. You said fundies are consistent, but Pit and Pittoo are the exception to the rule and ruins everything.
Rather than argue that my main should be considered a fundies character, I’d like to draw attention to the unacceptable amount of R.O.B. apologist sentiment in this video, do better next time Vars… Jk jk, great video as always!
Hey I have an idea for a No One Plays video: Link. I have yet to see a top lvl link player since T won WSP 51 and still haven’t hell I haven’t seen Rido at all
Why isnt Shulk on your list? Even with the Monado Arts, Shulk absolutely relies on fundies to win. He has to space properly since his moves are slow, even if he just spams nair and fair its not invalidating like Min Min spamming arms, the Arts all have drawbacks that the opponent can exploit, he fits pretty much all your 4 criterias for a fundies character.
i agree, i cant recall how many times people would complain about, "no counterplay to monado arts" and then proceed to kill me at 20% bc i had smash art on, or did 45% bc i had jump or buster.
I feel base shulk is a fundies but monado arts shulk is not. The fact that different arts instantly change the state of the match at will means that he can't be a fundie. Your opponent has to adapt to what is basically an entirely new character which is something you are unlikely to see an any other matchup.
@@gameboyn64 this applies to like 2 Arts, which are Jump and Speed. And every art lasts like 10 seconds tops. None of the arts give him moves that become more spammable and harder to play around other than I guess Speed art which makes it easier to short hop fair. Shield, Smash, and Buster simply change the risk/reward factor but ultimately doesnt change how shulk plays, just how the player approaches him
@@obijuandy-liacco328 jump and speed change his physics, shield drastically changes what combos do and don't work as well as drastically changing kill percent windows, buster increases shield stun and shield damage making attacks both safer and more immediately threatening as well as altering his combo game, and smash art can make opposing kill confirms stop working because the knockback is increased and now shulk has kill throws. The point is not that shulk has spammable moves or not. The point is that the state of the match changes. The matchup becomes more about character knowledge and your ability to adapt to a fluid situation rather than a player's fundamental knowledge and skills.
@@gameboyn64 yeah i dont think pyra and mythra are similar in, ANY WAY shape or form, or pokemon trainer, or olimar, or ANY character that switches, and/or comeback mechanic, which essentialy is just an underdog boost. you literally receive it for being bad. Monado arts have the potential FOR a comback, and isnt just automatically give you a win like rage drive, arsene, wing, aura, diamond, etc. I will admit that shulks monados are def the best move in the game bar none, shulk would be a bottom 20 character without monados. and are one of the reason shulk is one of the hardest characters to master. It is hard for both players that have to learn 6 matchups, and for the shulk to learn 6 different characters. Biggest reason for monado arts being skillful is the mental strain it requires to choose the correct art at the right time, otherwise, you get gimped, cheesed, killed at 10%, take 70% for a simple bread and butter, or all of the above. if you were losing before, you are still going to lose.
What exactly defines a “kill throw”? You mentioned that as a point against being a fundies character. Do Mario and Wolf’s back throws not count? They’re not the primary way to take stocks, but both can certainly do it at 130ish percent. Is that not enough?
“Kill throws” are throws that have good knockback scaling that they would usually kill at before 150 in the middle of the stage with no di, and could more than likely kill at 90-120 at ledge (or on a platform for vertical kills) depending on the base knockback. Examples being: Ness back throw, Mewtwo up throw, Doc back throw, and MK up throw. There are plenty of other kill throws, but these are just a few well known examples. Some “kill” throws don’t kill until much higher like Marth/Lucina up throw, but if a throw doesn’t kill until around 200+, it’s not considered a kill throw.
In no world is Joker a "fundamentals" character. Fundies characters dont have borderline-OP crutch comeback gimmicks that completely change playstyle. Sure, playing him at a high level is way more complicated than that, but for someone learning the game and basic fundamentals, the Arsene crutch makes him a character that's likely to create some bad habits. Against a lot of other new players/low-end casuals, braindead mashing gets insane results once Arsene pops, and by the time that stops getting results, you've already developed bad habits.
A lot of people in the comments describing what a fundamentals character is because you didn't define it accurately. A fundamentals character is general one with simple A moves and even simpler B moves. If you press B and the character wins the match for you, then it cannot be a "fundies." A fundies character is one in which the character's moveset reveals the knowledge of its player by forcing him to rely on fundamentals in order to contest his opponent.
If there’s a word more thrown around than “fundamentals” in the Smash community, it’s “campy/camping”. Pretty much used to describe anything that’s not unbridled monkey aggression.
The black screen gameplay was insane. A RUclips moment right there.
Dude, that clip was so sick. Did you see how ___ just did ____ on ____??? Truly one of the matches of all time
@Utsuhoagie Ryeuji Lmao that was definitely a singular match of all time
Yeah, those edgeguards were absolutely insane.
i almost restarted my yt app over that black screen
I would love to see a guide on gimmick characters. A lot of people just think being trash tier or wierd makes them a gimmick.
Pac-Man - seems like a gimmick character for wrong reasons but isn't.
Pac-Man - actual gimmick is nothing* is wrong about him.
definition of gimmick: 1. n "a trick or device intended to attract attention, publicity, or business" 2. v "alter or augment with an extra device or feature."
tbh I dont think calling it a gimmick is up to date, specially in a game like ultimate. I see your point plab, you want to know what makes the character either "special " or "different" from others, maybe was the wrong wording. I guess gimmicky would fit best in Melee or 64 because the roaster was very vanilla and more old school. Doing a video like that in ultimate would not work, rather we just call out the best move of each character so we exclude the honest ones regardless of tier lists.
@@Magic0YTid say theres still gimmicks in ult, especially in the dlc characters. jokers arsene is an extra feature. steve had to have every stage rebuilt for his blocks. kazuya is a gimmick. then theres things like bowsers tough guy mechanic or macs KO punch. i agree that people call things gimmicks that arent gimmicks too often but they still exist
@@Magic0YT tbh the Shotos and Item Characters absolutely have gimmicks considering how differently they work
The 1# character is a gimmick
I really believe that greninja isn't a fun dies character since he basically has no shield, grab and rising aerials
I was going to say this too. His kit is very unorthodox as well. The frog employs a lot of fundamentals in their play but not enough in my opinion to classify as a fundies char.
I'd say he's a fundies character, as a result of having no shield he has to space a lot better than the opponent to both build damage and kill, especially due to how unsafe most of his moves are on shield. He's also pretty flow charty in advantage in general which is also changed throughout percent windows. A lot of his nuetral requires you to just be the better player with better movement, spacing, and option coverage.
I mostly agree but I do think Greninja grab is really good; it’s pretty large (greninja pivot grab is insane), up throw is either great for combos or juggling, fthrow nullifies shield at ledge >150%. D throw also sets up rps at kill percents.
Amen. Lucina and wolf feel very solid and straightforward and don't seem like they need crazy combo game or super-technical game play to be decent. Greninja is the opposite of that. He feels weird and probably can't win just by positioning well and making good/patient choices.
Greninja might seem like a strange pick, but he truly is a character who is heavy on fundamentals. Good movement is the most important thing a Greninja needs, which can only come from a solid grasp on how to play neutral, push advantage state, and mitigate disadvantage. This is especially important because of his inability to rely on shield like so many other characters do.
I usually define a fundies character by just "no gimmicks." It's a general blanket term but it works. Basically, if the character itself is gimmicky to a point that it's actively teaching you bad habits, it's not fundies. Y'know, general purpose characters.
Stuff like slow movement speed of Ganon or Cloud limit isn't really a gimmick. It just teaches you different approaches and how to use payoffs. And then there's Kazuya, where his entire game plan revolves around 1 move and what you can do to capitalize on it. Or DK, where you're given 4 spikes, lots of armor, a move that grounds the opponent and ding dong still exists. Or Bowser's Tough Guy. Or all the FGC character's auto turn around, completely warping both player's gameplay in benefit of the FGC character.
FGC?
@@Icemario87 Ryu, Terry Kazuya, ect.
@@CrimsoniteSP oh, fighting game characters, got it.
I guess they have a gimmick, but is aegis considered a fundies character? They have a very basic moveset, and they are good for teaching things like spacing and when not to approach
5:40 the screen goes black for no reason?
So it’s not just me
Methinks Vars forgot to add an Ike clip here.
Copyright shit?
I personally think Lucina is the best example. All of her moves are incredibly basic. Aside from Side B and Neutral Air, Every move is a single hit. Her only cheese is Neutral B, which if you really want to be technical, could still be a fundamental. Technically, since every character or most characters have a form of cheese, having a basic cheese option teaches you the basics of what a cheese option is, but I digress. She teaches you every major aspect of the game. Spacing, Legdetrapping, Edgegaurding, Sheild Pressure, Out Of Shield Options, Basic Combos, Movement, Shorthop, Baits, and can even help learn the uses of a RAR with Back Air.
The best way I can describe it is,
Lucina is everything you need, but nothing you don’t.
8:46 His list of fundamentals characters
Mario, Lucina, Marth, Pit, Dark Pit, Corrin, Doctor Mario, Ike, Greninja, R.O.B., Wolf, Palutena, Cloud, Inkling, Joker
Cloud is NOT a fundies character, he has the frame data of Mario with the range/killpower of Ike. Cloud just mashes like crazy, hugely carries mid-level players especially. There's a reason his matchup spread is full of matchups where the opponent doesn't feel like they can even play the game because his pressure is just so fucking oppressive.
If we get a "Smash 6," it really needs to include a robust tutorial mode. A mode that explains everything this in this video, in game, while allowing players to practice in real time.
Big big disagree with R.O.B. being considered a fundies character
Yep, agreed:
- Side-B is a braindead gimmick; should NOT be a kill move!
- His two projectiles arguably put him in the "Trap" character category
- Has extremely good flowchart for kill option (down throw into 50/50)
He's close...the above 3 items (especially the side b) would need to be tweaked for him to be fundamental.
@dazed d ROB is actually a very hard character to use. The 0 to death combo takes a lot of skill and ROB needs it when he's in a bad matchup. Wolf is by far a much easier character.
@dazed d I'm not joking. ROB is very overrated.
Along with the topic, I liked the music in the background here. It’s a nice breath of fresh air from just the byleth song.
i think marth/lucina are the quintessential fundamentals characters, you aren't going to win with them against a skilled player unless you yourself are skilled.
i 100% noticed this too but never knew what it was called or had any good idea on what it was, this is exactly how i've always described Pit as a Pit main, he has nothing special about him but has everything needed to be able to win any match, consistently too, a character who's only as good as you make him
I had always stuck with jump man in every installment and I love him. He is the best character in the whole franchise to learn the fundamentals of the series in each instalment.
no he is not lol
Idk Kirby exists
the amount of comments disagreeing with the characters you listed in the video is proof of how nebulous the phrase "fundies character" really is
had to watch this video twice cause i was jammin to the FFXV music at first lmao great choice of music Vars!
To that I say, fundeez nuts (I main incineroar)
I play lucina most of the time since she's balanced but when I need to change gears I usually rely or Terry to deal with certain matchups I'm at a disadvantage. Very nice video and everything was explained thoroughly and in depth
Lucina is not balanced. 😐
@@hubbleworks7872 compared to the others swordies that's not true
@@deanoor9391 oh I can keep going though, let’s not forget lucina. Who is just Marth in easy mode. Oh he said, palu? Now that is absolutely crazy guy. Yeah I totally think it’s balanced that she has 4 amazing special moves that are way better than they have any right to be, an invincible DA and back air, nair poops that are extremely easy to preform and almost always prioritize over any other moves. Need I explain more?
@@hubbleworks7872 What I am hearing from you is just how the characters you mentioned are strong or high tiers, and that's something that I believe people let their frustrations playing against a character define their view of the whole character
its like you get annoyed each time you play against palutena but that's not the point of the video, the point of the video its that these characters have a good enough balance of tools for these characters to promote the creation of good habits and practicing fundamentals
All a fundamental character is, is a character with straightforward standard moves (relies on fundamental ability;running, guarding, grabbing, throwing, dodging, standard hits,) and abilities that can translate to skill gain across the board. Most of the sword fighters and rushdowns are fundamentals, no zoner is a fundamental by definition because their gameplay is not the standard and mastery of a zoner won’t necessarily translate to any other character. Their actual stats have nothing to do with being a fundamental character it’s entirely gameplay based.
Spargo slamming the controller against ProtoBanham and then hugging them is craaaazy
The Final Fantasy music is quite nice
Cloud has become my secondary above young link and PT because I love his playstyle and how fundamentals are what makes him good, I guess my main joker is also somewhat a fundamentals character but his combo game is much more complex
As a cloud main, sometimes I have to switch it up with my slave owner mario or Russian snake
Bro wtf I heard the FF15 music in the beginning and it took me a couple seconds to realize it. Trippy
Mewtwo is also a fundies char I would argue. He has a swordy-esque moveset and his specials are basically a smörgåsbord of abilities that are mirrors of what other characters have.
Thank you for taking the time to spell smörgåsbord with special characters.
i actually agree with that statement, i really think that a character with huge kill moves, a charge shot that does 31%(talent), very good recovery, one of the stupidest forward airs in the game, a reflector that is a command grab that sets up for super early stocks, massive disjoints that arent really offset by tail hitbox, and a watered down free deku nut(talent), is quite skillful.
@@hubbleworks7872 to be fair, he is very big (even without tail hitbox) and light which is not a good combination
@@J.S.M-zo2bw true ig but he still has some cheese that I wouldn’t call fundies, I think any character with a projectile that does over at least 12% max is leaning on that move a little too hard
@@hubbleworks7872 A projectile you have to charge. The base damage of a shadow ball isn’t 12% either. Also, confusion doesn’t have anything true off of it until around 140%, so it isn’t some kind of freebie. You have to read your opponent to get anything great out of it prior to that, which definitely falls under fundamentals.
Having a great fair doesn’t make him any less fundamental. Again, Ike and Palu are fundy chars and they had the best nairs in the game at one point.
Lastly, disable requires your opponent to be grounded and facing you. It is not something you mash, it requires set ups and reads.
Awesome topic to cover, keep up the good work Vars 👍🏼
Thanks for the video! I never had a clear understanding of “fundies” but your explanation she’d some light on the topic!
As pit main i agree with these points and you cant get mor honest that pit
Maybe that's why I play Lucina all the time. Every dub I get I feel like I earned it.... except for shield breaker...
Top tiers. Literally. Every fundies-focused is a top tier. Cloud, Lucina, Palu, Wolf... they're all top tiers.
Except that cloud is not a top tier,but Lucina, palu, wolf they definitely are
@@inked9361 cloud is definitely top 15 lmao. People downplay him so much because they play an easy character and want it to seem harder than it is
@@Bluerock121 lol top you dead ass said 15, he’s not even better than Lucina. And a lot of people say he’s top 25-30 he’s not that great has a lot weaknesses In this game, no reasons to think he’s top tier. And about cloud being easy, he’s easy to pick but I don’t think he’s easy at top level bro
@@inked9361 The official tier list, made by several dozens of top players, ranks Cloud at 10th, above all of them. That's maybe a little exaggerated, but he's certainly very very powerful.
But not every top tier is fundies.
I don't believe there is such a thing as a fundies character, only a fundies player. Every character has a variety of tools and combos that makes them unique, but the fundamental aspects of the game such as shield, grab, etc, are available on every character. So a fundies player will understand how the game plays, where other players might focus on other character specific things like spacing, zoning, and crazy combos.
Basically what I'm saying is that there is no fundies characters because fundies is an aspect of every character.
There are characters that teach you the game better than others. A few of these characters are "all arounder" characters but they are called fundies not cause of their playstyle. It's cause they can HELP your fundies be better. That's what he is talking about.
Then you don't understand the game very well.
Many characters have built in gimmicks/mini-games that allow players to use as a crutch. Examples of skills + characters that can bypass that skill:
- Fundamental skill: "Don't mash. Attack thoughtfully, because if I miss I will be open to getting hit." Character who can ignore this: Sheik.
- Fundamental skill: "Space myself properly to KO opponent without getting hit in return." Character who can ignore this: Steve (e.g. minecart, etc)
- Fundamental skill: "Use quick attacks to build up opponent's %. Then at kill percent, strategically use stronger attacks to get the KO." Character who can ignore this: Ganon
And the list goes on and on. In some cases, this is completely fine because the character isn't that good to begin with (e.g. Ganon). In other cases, it's extremely odious, because players would otherwise be unable to place highly except for their character's skill-breaking gimmicks (e.g. Steve)
@@jeffersonian4 exactly. having a fundies-bypassing mechanic isn’t itself always a bad thing, it’s a problem when that mechanic isn’t balanced against a deficiency somewhere else (like you said, steve)
@@sm3argleliker Salute, finally, a reasonable person on this site :D
“I am different” -MKLeo 2022
The goat
Fundies is stuff that applies to everyone, anything else is matchup knowledge. First you learn fundies, then you learn the matchup then you pay attention to player habits.
Putting Rob into the fundies section is insanity to me.
to me the fundie definition is simple :
one taht does not have a gimmick that make the playstyle revol arround it (gimmick being a gameplan or a moove)
one that need all fundamental of the game to be effective and thus have the tool to use them correctly
on that in virtue of 1 and 2 can play borrow gameplan from anyother type of fighter
*Banana* makes you _respect_ the *monke.*
Actually if you understand the word fundamental it's pretty obvious what it means. A fundamental character would be one that specializes in the fundamentals of the fighting game engine in which it is based. Ryu and Mario for example. They can't be considered anything else because they don't specialize in one thing, rather they are in all around character which then lends itself to being a fundamental based character
This is something I’ve wanted talked about for a while: what exactly is fundies? Always seemed kinda vague when people throw it around but this video cleared it up a lot. Also, would Doc not fall into the camp of Little Mac or Chrom where there recoveries are so lacking that they won’t be considered a fundamentals character?
Doc has way better recovery than Chrom or Mac. He has two specials that allow you to rise in the air both up and down special. Doc is only bad because his movement speed is slow and his combos are generally only 2-3 hits max
@@codygruhl5548 mf noooooooooooo. docs air physics are def the worst in the game (besides ganon, but he has a pretty good vertical recovery).
@@codygruhl5548 doc has way worse air speed than both of them and his down b animation is like 100 frames so after he down b's you have 6 years to hit him. Also docs up and down b goes no where
@@rookeyji5177 Doc can still recover in more ways than Mac and chrom which is the point though. Having a wall jump is also another big factor in the differences in their recovery options
Doc is a "fundamentals" character because _if you don't know the fundamentals you're screwed._
(I don't actually know what doc is considered, but its probably not a fundamentals character... he plays more like a heavyweight).
5:40
It's just me or Vars forgot to put footage there?
Amazing video anyways
@8:47 for anyone that want to jump Var’s fundies list
Fundies is equivalent to wisdom. One must have knowledge that is then transformed into wisdom through experience. Knowledge is frame data, bread and butter combos, match up's, etc. This knowledge is then turned into wisdom by it being applied in real time in actual games. This will then lead to successes and failures that will verily lead to more wisdom through experiencing knowledge as being correct, incorrect, or irrelevant.
So, Fundies are the culmination of wisdom. Wisdom is knowledge actualized . Knowledge is information.
I'd argue that Young Link also qualifies as a fundies character. While his zoning is excellent, it alone cannot win his game for him. He still needs to be close enough to get in and use melee finishers to end stocks. He needs his whole toolkit to win, and has to cover for his weak recovery and lack of reliable finishers
I think young link's gameplan of mostly zoning a keeping distance until it's time to take a stock isn't qualifiable for a fundies character. what makes young link so scary IS his projectiles and the various way he can mix up the way he throws. Sure you have to be close for fire arrow into fair to connect, but if your opponent backs up you can hold the charge and still hit them with an arrow to push your advantage. At the end of the day, even most zoners still have to play up close in order to take a stock, it's mostly how they play the entire match is what makes them classified to be a 'fundies' character.
Nah, he's too spammy to be a true fundies character. You can play him in a more rushdown, fundies-heavy way, but his optimum playstyle is too heavy on zoning for him to really be a fundies character. He's the closest thing to a fundies character out of the zoners, but he's still a zoner.
Isnt ROBs gyro also like Diddy’s banana and PACMANs bell, in that he can grab it, combo with it, and use it to get kill confirms…?
I would definitively say yes, and he has more kill power than both of them combined on top of it, and all sorts of off-stage cheese.
11:34 we all saw this in the tournament right?
I think Joker definitely counts as a fundies character because as you said, he can't rely on doing the same move or gameplan over and over to win. If he doesn't utilize all his moves correctly and keep his approaches varied, he's gonna lose. Even Arsene doesn't change that. He's a power boost yes, but if you're doing bad at Joker with Arsene, getting Arsene will not magically make you do better at anything you were trying to do before.
I also think Young Link would be a good example of a fundies character as they utilize every fundamental mechanic of the game to great effect and requires you to learn them all to improve with him.
Bair
@@chad762 Enjoy getting shield grabbed and beat by every disjoint in the game.
@@Capta1nTD bruh bair is like -6, you can't shield grab that
@@Capta1nTD You get shield grabbed if you space it poorly or get parried
@@chad762 you definitely can if you don't space it properly. And if you're spacing you run the risk of them moving away and whiff punishing you. Bair is Joker's best move but it's punishable like everything else in his kit. A lot of times it'll just blatantly whiff if you're not landing with it.
Pit is THE fundies character but also I think falcon is in there too
Like the ff15 christalline chill
Cloud limit is a bit too cheesy for me to let him be a fundies character. "bUt itS n0t smaSh 4!" doesn't mean Cloud still can't limit camp. In fact since he has to burn it he has more chances to do so lol. Everything barring side smash being unpunishable is a nice perk I wish my main Dedede had as well XD
Watch low-tier mains when they play, they aren't using fundies characters but because of what their character lacks they really have to download their opponent, play a perfect neutral, and squeeze every bit of use out of their undoubtedly worse kits
I don’t think, even fundies characters can camp. And you can punish his dash attack, dair, nair on shield, down tilt and up air. You can’t punish his bair most of the time tho, you taking about cloud as if he were un punishable in a lot of scenarios when he’s not. The only cheesy thing about cloud would be his up b, and again still on you deal with that .That’s how it works. But he’s a fundies character for sure
How is Cloud's limit "cheesy"? "Cheese" is getting KO with too little effort. Only way Cloud can get that is with Finishing Touch, and even then, opponent has to have at least 60-80%, and the move's frame data is so bad that almost no one ever hits it
@@jeffersonian4 I think the fact Cloud even has a meter mechanic is the cheese part. He may not be a dlc fighter anymore but his origins as one shine through. They toned it down from smash 4 but all his limit moves are still super specials he is granted for simply playing the game (or in his case, charging it manually when possible) plus he gets limit like 3 times a stock so that's nice. Not the most balanced mechanic I feel.
Couple that with incredible disjoints, darn good framedata, kill power, damage output, and so on. He's a bit too good at everything for me to consider him a fundies character. Recovery may be booty but that's like his one weakness and it too can be mitigated with limit
Not speaking with any hatred here. He's good but he isn't toxic like steve or min-min lmao. If my main had a limit mechanic I'd prob be singing a different tune
@@kaito2220 "Fundamentals" is not describing a character as either high tier or low tier. It's describing whether the player using that character needs to have good fundamentals in order to succeed with them.
Steve is a good example of this: players do not need to have good fundamentals to excel with Steve.
Regardless of what you think about Cloud's limit, or where he places on the tier list, players have to have good fundamentals in order to succeed with him.
@@jeffersonian4 Amen on the steve comment lol he def carries bad players
I'm not saying Cloud is nearly that busted or that players with bad fundamentals are excelling with him. However I am saying his risk-reward is scewed much more in his favor than other purely fundies characters. because he's got all those pretty forgiving qualities. Alotta people play him for a reason lol
8:45 the list of Fundies characters
Fundies chars are like the actual shotos of the game. (FG chars in smash are more combo oriented TBH)
Just super EZ to pick up and play well.
Joker is now the best shoto.
Hearing all of this, Ness is the opposite of a fundies character. That character is a character that is easy to play and pick up, but upon further improvement will not necessarily give you better results. Yet Ness is “reliable” in the sense that he kills with almost anything but moves a touch too slowly to be higher placed. Ness seems to make for high-tier jobbers while fundies characters can consistently win high-tier tournaments even if much less than those “with gimmicks”
You forgot to list aegis as a fundies character (unironically)
Reminder that playing a fudies character doesn’t make a player better or worse than a non fundies character player, this arguement causes too much hate in the smash community when overall the better player will win, don’t take a loss too hard and just find the character you vibe with ❤
Great video 👌good to see spargo hugging Proto lol 6:44
8:46 for list
I find it hard to believe that Pit is a fundamentals character due to many opponents he struggles with.
He has a good neutral and a good recovery, but it's mostly predictable and punishable. Not having a few degenerate options like almost every character put his utility at low placements.
He struggles more due to being under-tuned. He definitely fits the fundy definition though.
@@JasonSmith-jv7wl And not only fits into, IS THE MOST FUNDAMENTAL of the characters, which is clearly intentional considering Pit is Sakurai's stepson. Seriously, a big issue Pit and Pittoo have is being TOO FAIR AND HONEST of fighters, too fundamental-oriented without any sauce or X-factor to make up for it.
@@N12015 People say how balanced ult is yet some characters we’re pretty obviously under and overtuned. I think they could have easily made adjustments to the Pits that would have made them high tier with just simple adjustments to damage and knock back growth. If they just got a bit more out of their exchanges it wouldn’t matter that they didn’t have some mechanic to boost them like many other characters.
@@JasonSmith-jv7wl Oh, i forgot another issue: THEY'RE INCREDIBLY INCONSISTENT. We all know how inconsistent his U-air is, but also applies to N-Air, F-Air, F-Smash and U-Smash. They have in theory the tools to be good, but in practice those tools tend to fail too often to make them good on a tournament setting.
@@JasonSmith-jv7wl yeah, he's the definiton of all rounder, but I feel that when people talk about "fundies characters" they usually mean REALLY good all-rounders. High- top tiers that have every tool to win and won't struggle too much with something
12:01 so true I always miss dr Mario pill 😂
"...and weaponizing every tool in Cloud's kit to the absolute *limit,* while..."
Answer me, Vars. Did you make this subtle pun on purpose? I like this.
Great video
If you want to learn fundamentals quickly, Shulk actually isn't a bad pick. A good number of his moves have enough end lag that you get punished for mistiming an attack or using the wrong Monado Art. In that sense, not knowing your fundamentals can be a trial by fire. At the same time, knowing your fundamentals and being able to execute accordingly can be extremely rewarding, serving as positive feedback to reinforce good habits. It's part of why I love playing as him so much; I enjoy being able to tell where I need to improve and see the results of my progress so clearly.
Shulk must be a really complicated fundies character then. Or to be more accurate, Shulk is a complicated stance fundies character.
I like shulk cuz he's got amazing fundies, but you can expand your gameplay after learning the fundies by using his monado arts
great video as usual!
FunDeez-Nutz
Glorious.
Marth is the exact opposite of a fundies character since he excels at no point in the game
I'd consider Lucario to be close to a fundamental character
"...utilizing every tool in [Cloud's] kit to its absolute limit."
He might even break those limits, tbh.
It would be nice if you posted a summary of the definition of each at the end of the video
So would you count Roy as a fundies character?
he definitely is
Too many easy and reliable kill options. He easily kills people at very low percents just landing jab-bair.
Absolutely- he's overtuned a bit- but just utilizes fundamentals instead of a gimmick.
A performance enhancing drug, if you will
Probably, but he falls more in the rush-down category, like Fox
Absolutely, Roy is easy but he is a fundies character
I realize he’s a lightweight, but wouldn’t pikachu be considered a fundies character? Maybe he’s too combo heavy, but he doesn’t really have win button like other characters and focuses on conditioning way more than most projectile characters
tjolt
@@hubbleworks7872 I mean tjolt has insane damage build up if it’s not like it’s a kill move, and is more used for conditioning, but I will agree it is the least fundies part of his kit
@@goblingoo8061 pikahu also has no disadvantage with up b and also recovers for free as well. Pikachu dash attack is also absurd.
No, he's a Combo character, and arguably a Glass Cannon (in a similar vein to Sheik; he's just objectively better).
To clarify further: Pikachu's moves come out so fast and have such little lag that he can continuously throw out hitboxes and not really care if they are hitting or not. (The word I think I was looking for before is "rushdown").
In contrast, a fundamentals character has to be more thoughtful about approach. Cloud's don't just rush in. Pikachu's do
Hero without down be is the best character for learning fundies
Random crits are still a thing though
judt like the black screen on my end when talking about ike
Good video, subbed.
Small petition for Pit or Dark Pit video because I am a skill issue
stale bread, water without any ice, the newest season of the simpsons, and dirt
@VarsIII where do you think Pika is in regards to being a fundies character? Even though he’s on Fox’s level of consistently good in smash as a franchise, he’s never frequently seen outside of 64. Do you think it’s because of how his aerials work that he’s not a fundies character?
I like how in 2:24 Kazuya gives Mario a new asshole
CRAZY STATEMENT
Is Lucario not a Fundies character? Sure he has aura, but with the rage nerf it's not as busted as, say, Arsen. It massively boosts the range and lethality of his specials, yes, but that doesn't change that a whiffed side B will get him smacked, and he has to be behind to access that power so there's no shortcuts.
I'd argue that while he has good projectiles, above average airspeed, and a strong comeback mechanic, he still relies on his fundamentals to play. He has very few setups and relies on adapting to the state of game.
GUYS SPAMMING BACK AIR W CLOUD IS NOT SKILL! SPAMMING YOUR FRAME 7 UP-B OUT OF SHIELD IS NOT SKILL! LIMIT AS A MECHANIC WAS NEVER SKILL AND NEVER WILL BE! THIS CHARACTER IS EASY ASF!!!!! (This is a joke.(kind of))
Cloud main saying the word risk really grinds my gears
Up B
Bair
LIMIT
If your opponent knows the matchup and is a competent player he will punish
Up B and edge guard cloud
Parry his bad spaced bairs-frame11 punishable on parry if the cloud player didn’t space it perfectly
Limit ?? just hold shield and adapt to the time, just 15 seconds, this is not smash 4. So for sure there are risks to play cloud in this game.
@@Ericspil790 not big ones. Back air is broken. Up b is completely spammable and broken. Limit is extremely polarizing. It removes his one weakness (recovery), gives him free stage control by forcing an approach, gives him non commital kill moves, buffs his atrributes
I was expecting captain falcon, but I guess since this ain’t melee, maybe he isn’t
It sounds like it is easy to become predictable with a fundamental characters. A player learns one technique and sticks with it instead of exploring other options.
If only Pit didn't suck he would have made a great fundies based character
In my personal opinion, to be a “fundies” character, you need to have at least these qualities:
1. Average movement minimum (decent ground/air speed)
2. Decent mid range capabilities (either through disjoints like swords or through projectiles)
3. No possible true zero to deaths from on stage or similarly early killing combos (this eliminates characters like ROB, Mario, and Joker)
4. A threatening way to deal with opponents shielding (either through kill throws, shield break setups, and/or extremely safe moves on shield)
5. Decent out of shield (either through moves that are fast, long ranged, and/or cover cross ups)
6. Relatively simple and easy to learn combos that stay relevant throughout every skill level (things like your simple 2 or 3 piece combos)
7. No extreme gimmicks that fundamentally alter how the character plays or how others play against your character (includes anything from Steve block to Joker Arsene to Kazuya EWGF)
Imo, the only fundies characters in Ult are Lucina, Pit/Dark Pit, Corrin, Wolf, Cloud, and surprisingly almost Bowser (personally I think tough guy, while a gimmick, is not very impactful in 95% of MUs)
10:39 I had to disagree here.
The swordies like marth, Marth and MARTH have some terrible MU, like against Cloud, Sephi, Shulk or DK.
Because his combo aren"t that great, his ability to tipper depends of the opponents DI ( if he know when and where to DI you won't get much tipper, i mean you can get some but it wont be the decesive one therefore not worth to have this tipper gimmick ).
And even tho his neutral is okay, he is a very defensive character that doesn't approach well against character that have a better range than him at all.
Like except for the very commital dash pivot f-tilt he won't be able to whiffpunish most of the time AAAAND won't be able to trade and win an interaction because of how bad his tipper hitbox is. So he will need to outplay a lot more his opponent that most of the character of the game needs to do to win even in their bad MU :x
What? I'll give you DK because his hurtbox is huge, but none of those other matchups are hard. And combo wise... What are you on? First of all, those characters are tall, so Nairplanes to F-smash are thing. Also it's easier to land falling Nair confirms. And furthermore, all of those characters struggle to escape juggle situations and Marth is one of the best characters in the game when it comes to juggling. Focus on frame trapping during advantage and you'll be in a much better position. Also... The recoveries on those characters... Marth can just edge guard them. Pretty easily, actually. Either with counter or forward air. Even DK can be dealt with this way. Heck, with DK, you can do some silly stuff like Nairplane to Nairplane to F-smash at like 0-10% I wanna say, for an easy corner carry to edge guard. Not saying the match up easy, mind you, but even in that match up, there's things you can do.
Welp, except for Sephi, i would love to see how your marth can juggle Cloud and his d-air, shulk and his monado or edgeguard Sephiroth consistently ( obviously i talk about some real players that have some work on their disavantage state, not some random masher that dont know that much about planning a game :x ). But yeah, we can always play the game regardless the MU. Ultimate is a very balanced game after all, but still, it doesn't mean that all the MU are even close to fair at all for everyone.
@@aegishdaego Cloud Dair hitbox is narrow and takes a minute to come out and Shulk's frame data is slow. Sure, monado can help him, but it's far from a get out of jail free card since that's mostly useful for escaping combos, not juggle situations. I mean I guess he gets a third jump, but still. And again, edge guarding is very easy against the characters you listed. For example, with Sephiroth, if he's within range to do the shorter version of his recovery, chances are you're close enough to him that you can snuff it out with a forward air since that move has faster frame data. If he's forced to recover low, then you can parry the octo-slash.
Marth has GREAT edgeguards against Shulk, DK, and Cloud.
Screen go dark at 6min in for anyone else?
Well Attack doesn't really beat grab it's situational
I have to disagree with 3 of your picks: Marth, Dr. Mario and Greninja. Marth is incredibly overreliant on sweetspots to work skewing his matchup chart significantly, Greninja lacks a shield and not being a fundamentals is the reason of his impopularity relative to his effectiveness, and Dr. Mario is definitely very polarized (and bad) in terms of matchups due to lacking both range, recovery and movility.
PS: I now want a "Why no one plays Pit/Pittoo?" Because the foundies, while popular, is not a foolproof formula. You said fundies are consistent, but Pit and Pittoo are the exception to the rule and ruins everything.
Rather than argue that my main should be considered a fundies character, I’d like to draw attention to the unacceptable amount of R.O.B. apologist sentiment in this video, do better next time Vars…
Jk jk, great video as always!
Why wouldn't Kirby be a fundies?
Hey I have an idea for a No One Plays video: Link. I have yet to see a top lvl link player since T won WSP 51 and still haven’t hell I haven’t seen Rido at all
I get carried by duck hunt. I don't have any fundamentals
Uh I think there’s a strangely long black screen in the middle of the video that I think u might’ve missed
5:42 there is a fair chunk of black here btw
Why isnt Shulk on your list? Even with the Monado Arts, Shulk absolutely relies on fundies to win. He has to space properly since his moves are slow, even if he just spams nair and fair its not invalidating like Min Min spamming arms, the Arts all have drawbacks that the opponent can exploit, he fits pretty much all your 4 criterias for a fundies character.
i agree, i cant recall how many times people would complain about, "no counterplay to monado arts" and then proceed to kill me at 20% bc i had smash art on, or did 45% bc i had jump or buster.
I feel base shulk is a fundies but monado arts shulk is not. The fact that different arts instantly change the state of the match at will means that he can't be a fundie. Your opponent has to adapt to what is basically an entirely new character which is something you are unlikely to see an any other matchup.
@@gameboyn64 this applies to like 2 Arts, which are Jump and Speed. And every art lasts like 10 seconds tops. None of the arts give him moves that become more spammable and harder to play around other than I guess Speed art which makes it easier to short hop fair. Shield, Smash, and Buster simply change the risk/reward factor but ultimately doesnt change how shulk plays, just how the player approaches him
@@obijuandy-liacco328 jump and speed change his physics, shield drastically changes what combos do and don't work as well as drastically changing kill percent windows, buster increases shield stun and shield damage making attacks both safer and more immediately threatening as well as altering his combo game, and smash art can make opposing kill confirms stop working because the knockback is increased and now shulk has kill throws. The point is not that shulk has spammable moves or not. The point is that the state of the match changes. The matchup becomes more about character knowledge and your ability to adapt to a fluid situation rather than a player's fundamental knowledge and skills.
@@gameboyn64 yeah i dont think pyra and mythra are similar in, ANY WAY shape or form, or pokemon trainer, or olimar, or ANY character that switches, and/or comeback mechanic, which essentialy is just an underdog boost. you literally receive it for being bad. Monado arts have the potential FOR a comback, and isnt just automatically give you a win like rage drive, arsene, wing, aura, diamond, etc. I will admit that shulks monados are def the best move in the game bar none, shulk would be a bottom 20 character without monados. and are one of the reason shulk is one of the hardest characters to master. It is hard for both players that have to learn 6 matchups, and for the shulk to learn 6 different characters. Biggest reason for monado arts being skillful is the mental strain it requires to choose the correct art at the right time, otherwise, you get gimped, cheesed, killed at 10%, take 70% for a simple bread and butter, or all of the above. if you were losing before, you are still going to lose.
Sonic a fundies character? Holy fuck.
What exactly defines a “kill throw”? You mentioned that as a point against being a fundies character. Do Mario and Wolf’s back throws not count? They’re not the primary way to take stocks, but both can certainly do it at 130ish percent. Is that not enough?
“Kill throws” are throws that have good knockback scaling that they would usually kill at before 150 in the middle of the stage with no di, and could more than likely kill at 90-120 at ledge (or on a platform for vertical kills) depending on the base knockback. Examples being: Ness back throw, Mewtwo up throw, Doc back throw, and MK up throw. There are plenty of other kill throws, but these are just a few well known examples. Some “kill” throws don’t kill until much higher like Marth/Lucina up throw, but if a throw doesn’t kill until around 200+, it’s not considered a kill throw.
Yes, he means a primary way of taking stocks
In no world is Joker a "fundamentals" character. Fundies characters dont have borderline-OP crutch comeback gimmicks that completely change playstyle. Sure, playing him at a high level is way more complicated than that, but for someone learning the game and basic fundamentals, the Arsene crutch makes him a character that's likely to create some bad habits. Against a lot of other new players/low-end casuals, braindead mashing gets insane results once Arsene pops, and by the time that stops getting results, you've already developed bad habits.
A lot of people in the comments describing what a fundamentals character is because you didn't define it accurately.
A fundamentals character is general one with simple A moves and even simpler B moves.
If you press B and the character wins the match for you, then it cannot be a "fundies." A fundies character is one in which the character's moveset reveals the knowledge of its player by forcing him to rely on fundamentals in order to contest his opponent.
Is this why starting with Jigglypuff to learn Smash was a terrible idea?
Can a kind individual tell me the name of the song playing throughout the video?
If there’s a word more thrown around than “fundamentals” in the Smash community, it’s “campy/camping”.
Pretty much used to describe anything that’s not unbridled monkey aggression.
When only Donkey Kong and Diddy Kong are not campy characters
Mario too combo-y