Lucas is miscellaneous in your archetype list or I would call him a close range midrange disjoint hybrid or a limited hybrid. Lucas has way too many factors to place in any normal archetypes, he is not strong in any too many areas
While Joker's core game is still finding opportunities to pressure whiffs, he can wall pretty well with gun/ftilt/bair/nair/eiha, zone with eiagon (arsene only), and if his opponent can't punish nair he can zonebreak/brawl pretty well too.
I think Ryu is more of a hybrid tbh. I know his brawler buttons are strong, but his opportunist whiff punish options are more consistent for a gameplan imo. He even has trapper and waller qualities with his fireball options. Either way cool video.
Nice video! These archetypes makes a lot more sense for Smash than the traditional FGC ones. Also really like that you show relevant gameplay for each archetype
I think you’re really onto something here, and there is a lot of accuracy here. I just feel like some characters that are misplaced, like Ridley and Ness are more opportunists I think and some other small things, but it’s overall amazing gj!
I would define characters by floaty, fast-faller, and mid-fallers. Then by whether or not they have good pokes. If they're a floaty, I know they need to stay close to the ground, if they're fast-fallers they'll be incentivized to jump more If they have better powerful pokes and neutral options, then I'll approach more. If they don't, I'll force them to approach. This seems more helpful to me than trying to find the distinction between a Trapper and a Zoner. Or to figure out what the heck is an opportunist is
Then it falls apart when u realize that floaties like peach, sora, and G&W love to jump while fastfallers like incin, mac, and Kazuya need to stay on the ground
I know I'm late but I'd like to share a few thoughts and changes I would make. This is a brilliant idea and fits smash way better than any other archetype system I've ever seen. I love it. I'm just sharing changes I personally would make. I feel the essence of this breakdown is the range (and to an extent style) a character wants to play neutral, and the main goal of my changes is to fit every single character. I think I've got it. first I'll define the archetypes I used from shortest to longest range. they're very similar to yours: Rushdown: It's pretty much just zonebreaker, which I see as the smash version of rushdown, even if it isn't exactly the same as a normal fighting game. They're close range characters who utilize their close range strength with speed and mobility. Most aggressive characters in neutral. Brawler: the strongest close range characters, but without the strong tools to get there. Often like aggressive opportunists Waller: The strong mid range characters. Will use lots of preemptive hitboxes to keep an opponent in an ideal range Setup: characters who will play in different ranges depending on circumstances other than neutral/advantage state Trapper: Characters who will use one range in neutral but will switch for advantage. probably needs a better name. encompasses the projectile wallers Zoner: These characters will just win from long range. generally, if they land a projectile and then don't close in, it's a zoner. Opportunist: These characters don't have a range, because they play to their opponent's weaknesses rather than their own strengths. They will simply wait at any range the opponent can't reach until they can capitalize on a weakness. Will have either decent mid range or decent mobility. Now, Character specifics, with explanations where I feel necessary. Anyone I don't mention I just keep in the same place you put them: New Zoners: Zelda and Snake: often won't close in even on hits New Trappers: Link, Young Link, K.Rool and Mii Swordfighter: all use projectiles to set up advantage and then get closer Belmonts: reverse of above. melee -> projectile New Wallers: Mythra and Chrom: while fast, none of their moves actually need any close range New Brawlers: Jiggs, Wario, and Squirtle: Don't have the tools to play defensively, so they fit better here Lucario: Has very little defense, but insane offense and fits here quite well New Rushdowns: Bowser: he is actually quite fast and plays extremely aggressively New Opportunists: G&W: Tends to be very defensive and punish oriented Sonic: very fast, but also tends to be more defensive and punishing IC's: very very strong punish game, so I feel they go here Setups: Rosalina, Isabelle, and Duck hunt: use attacks that must be placed before use Hero, Robin, and Steve: Resource management goes here Wii Fit and ROB: cooldown moves All done. I still can't quite place Inkling, Bowser Jr. or Lucas. I think they're maybe brawlers but I don't know for sure
I would argue Banjo is a hybrid character, (although trapper definitely fits him). He can zone effectively with his projectiles. He can trap with grenades. He can wall with Kazooie sword disjoints. He can be a midrange opportunist with breegull blaster combos. He can zonebreak with egg approaches, and brute force his way in with wonderwing. He can be a brawler with his boxing tools and close range nair/grab combo loops. He's a jack of all trades in a way.
Personally I think Luigi should be put the the Opportunist category. Even though Luigi can fight close to his opponents he mostly relies on baiting his opponents into a grab combo.
One of the things that make Smash so fun when compared to other fighting games is how flexible a character can be in any given situation. I've picked up Joker recently, and while I agree he's an opportunist, he has the tools to perform a variety of roles. Like you said, there's a lot of crossover in the categories. Lucina is my main, and in certain matchups (both character and player), sometimes you play her more like Chrom, looking to zonebreak with dtilt and falling aerials. Sometimes you play an opportunistic game, whiff punishing with grab thanks to her fast run speed, or with a rising aerial. These little things keep me coming back to the game because it's so fun to work out the best ways to win with any given character.
For sure!! You can express yourself even within dedicated playstyles too. Are you a patient or aggressive zonebreaker? Et cetera. Best of luck with the Joker!
In other figthing game you can do the same either you know,smash dont have more freedom than any FG(excepto probably MK/Injustice,everyone in that games are zoners,basically a 2d shooter)
Using your method of classifying archetypes in smash, I personally would move - -Isabel to trapper (using sling shot to force the opponent in leading to down b or side b) -inkling to brawler or opportunist (has a gameplan somewhere between mario and diddy) -squirtle to zone breaker (wants to force his way in for grab combos or fast/aireals) -ike could possibly be a waller( fwd air and nair create a huge wall thats hard to punish) -GNW to waller (back air, nair, & fwd air make it tough to approach) -sonic to zone breaker (even though sonic can camp his gameplan to dish out damage/start combos is to get in) -lucario to opportunist (baiting moves from opponents and punish is most of his gameplan, with mixup between projectile, aerials, and uptilt to start combos) -lucas to waller (keeping the opponent out with side b and punishing get ins with nair) -mewtwo to opportunist or waller (using shadow ball, nair and bair to keep opponents at bay until its m2s "turn" -krool to waller (using crown and Canon ball to keep opponent out and using nair or fwd air to punish if they get in) -ICs to brawler (most of they're damage is done through be in the opponents face with nair, side b, desyncs etc) -rosa to waller (using Luma to force opponents to stay at range shes comfortable with) -rob to opportunist (uses gyro to force opponents to make decisions [ jump, shield, attacks ] and punishes Love the ideas put forth here. Personally I would love to see a tier list with each character having a pie chart that displays the " amount " of archetype that they have. For example: Link would have a 60% waller but also 40% trapper sort of chart. Idk just spit balling. Awesome vid tho!
@@RamsesEsports wasn't trying to be the "critic asshole" btw...I just love when people make content like this and ask their/the community their take on it as well. Again good vid homie, hope to see more!
K. Rool can work as Misc, but I'd argue he edges out more as an Opportunist. He has a hard time getting his klaws on you for a reason and by George, you don't wanna let him pick his punish options cause he loves it when you screw up. *Nair for combos, B-Air for beefy landings, & Fair for both *Amazing throw game, especially if he reads your mash at 90-100% with D-Throw *Strong coverage and fairly easy edge-guarding with lingering Nair, Dair for 2-Frames, and Vaccum with a platform *D-Tilt > F-Smash at 60%-70+% *Countless amount of cheese from said bury moves, Gut Check, F-Throw > B-Air off-stage, etc... All while utilizing his Krown and Nair's armor to find out openings at mid-range since his normals are too laggy for up-close and projectiles too telegraphed.
18:28 “hey guys apparently bowser has a frame 9 command grab”. All jokes aside though. Great video, seriously! I learned a lot from this video. Never would’ve figured out that Zelda is a trapper and not a full on zoner lol 😂.
I think Steve belongs to the zoner category. You said "he kinda keeps the opponent at long range until he gets diamond and then he turns into kind of a brawler". The same would also apply to wii fit with her deep breathing and sun projectile.
@@RamsesEsports yes but he doesnt have to actively keep opponents out. He sits behind his oppressive walls and forces you to take massive risks if you want to turn that long range into a shorter range. Pac-Man also is not really active when he keeps his opponents out he just charges his thing and acts if the opponent tries to get in. It's reactively keeping people out, not actively. There's a category of zoner-ish characters where their goal is to play at the long range until they become a more powerful character and then they try to use their tools to get in and land massive reward. Pac-Man, Steve, Wii Fit, Hero all play a bit like this. Olimar and charge shot characters also become stronger as they play at the long range but like you said in the trapper section, those characters never really have to leave the long range since their zoning tools actually pose a threat by themselves.
Going by the video and my experience playing Steve, I think it makes sense to classify him a trapper primarily. Putting up walls and mining usually forces opponents to approach, which allows Steve to counterattack appropriately. Also the Minecart, TnT, and other abilities make Steve great at ledge guarding and forcing opponents into disadvantageous situations. I think though that Steve's average speed, poor range, lack of strong approach options, but strong combos and frame data up close could put him in the brawler as well. It's a bit situational. It's a spectrum anyway, it may be better to rank each character at how effective they can perform at each particular range and tactic/strategy, rather than place them by their strongest style.
Falcon is definitely an opportunist, not a zone breaker. He has nothing to "brute force" his way in besides his movement speed when moving in. No disjoints, no projectiles, his aerials are good on shield but not great besides maybe perfect -4 nair 1/2. His bad turnaround makes him heavily committal as well. I also wouldn't call raptor boost "brute forcing" your way in. You kind of have to combo into it or read your opponent with it to make it work at all.
to this day i don't understand why Ganondorf was not created as a zoner look his boss Battle in ocarina, he never gets near you also i think Wolf and Yoshi are Better suited there because as Pacman, their projectiles don't cover much but they don't lose much by spamming It mid range
I already knew your twitter, but I didn't know you had a RUclips channel ! I really like your explanations and the fact that you answer as much as possible in the comments
This video made me realize: I suck at fighting zonebreakers. Thats can be solved so much better than "I struggle in certain Matchup" Thank you a lot ramses!
i am by no means an expert, but i watch T3 Dom play belmonts a lot. I think he is one of the best representatives of the char and in my opinion he plays him as more of an oppurtunist than anything else. from what i have seen of his gameplay, the side b and down b in nuetral condition opponents in order to set up for his strongest position: ledgetrapping. IMO his win condition is that ledgetrapping, so i personally would call him an opportunist. T3 Dom recently won 2 MSM's back to back over Larry Lurr, Void (idk if they played, but he attended), and some other notable So-Cal players. I would be really interested in an analysis video of that personally! Gonna post this in discord too in case anybody else has thoughts.
I like the opproach , because smash is a bit more open in terms of movement to understand ranges this archtypes work , but I think smash charakters also have traditional fighting game archtypes ontop of this ,wich you sometimes need to understand the characters toools and to understand how they deal with specific situations.
I can't decide whether or not I agree with you about the belmonts, the more I think about it, they seem like a hybrid of trapper and waller. But at the same time they seem like such a extreme example of some archetype, they have such clear strengths and weaknesses.
@@RamsesEsports Would you consider them mid range or long range? Seems like they only wall to then have the space to set up a trap and force you to approach with an uncomfortable situation. Which would be more of a long range trapper strategy. They really shine at the long range and don't want to stay midrange. They play midrange just to play their trapper long range
@@SantanaBanana47 I think in essence they play mid range. They just play the outer edge of it, similar to Sephiroth. Mid range is a pretty abstract range, and your & your opponents' tools define a lot of what mid range is in a given matchups.
To make it simple an opportunist is basically a bait and punish character a Waller will throw out a bunch of disjointed hit boxes to keep you in check. A brawler has a bunch of strong close ranged hits and kill very early/have good combos. Just to keep it simple that’s all.
I find your personal take on the subject and the archetypes very original and interesting. Honestly, most of your Miscellaneous characters can be placed quite easily for me: - Ice Climbers is more of a brawler to me because their neutral is quite bad and they want to get closer to you to do deadly desync combos. - I would place Sonic as a Zone breaker character because he can come close to you quite easily and move freely because of his speed and spin dash options. - I would see Lucario more as a brawler but just with a very special trick which can extand his range and power at some point. - I think Steve fits the Brawler archetype well because even if he has to zone because of his gameplay, the finality of his gameplan is mostly to get the diamond weapon and come close to you with power and good frame data. - Mewtwo is definitely a Waller character to me, he plays similarly to Sephiroth, Corrin and Byleth and has a strong main projectile like them. - And it looks obvious to me that R.O.B. would be a Trapper character because of the gyro but with good brawler attributs, much like Snake. - Concerning Hero I really don't know because depending of what spell he has, he can basically do anything. The only identifying trait I see is his frame data on normals is kinda bad. - And Lucas I would have said Oportunist maybe? But I don't really know. - Maybe K.Rool could be a bad Trapper because of the blunderbuss that can suck you in and other projectiles.
By your criteria, Lucas would be a zonerbreaker/brawler. Like you said, the brawler is where he gets his payoff and most damage output. Zair is used outside the opponents burst range so lucas can get in and brawl and the djcz proves that range desire which is the same mentality as ZSS's Zair. PK fire is used the same way Pikachu's T-jolt is, as a way to approach OR as a zoning tool. Also as a kill option which makes it more of a zoning tool like charge shot but it can't combo like charge shot, t-jolt, ness pk fire, arc lightning, holy water, or other trapping tools. He is definitely not a waller as he is outclassed by most of the wallers on your list. Yes his Fair, Zair, and PK fire can wall out some characters without the range of a waller but he is really bad at it and I wouldn't define a characters game plan as "be a bad version of X." Also his walling tools don't work against many of the Opportunist/Waller/Brawler archetypes because his end lag can be beat out by their speed, I thinking all swordfighters, Mario, Yoshi, and Inkling specifically. Thinking of his match-up charts that he can mimic their playstyles, he is similar to ZSS and Pikachu. Both of those match-up are a game of chicken with their zoning/walling tools with the winner getting in and brawling followed by a rinse and repeat of the zoning/walling. Lucas has a lot of tools similar to others but is usually worse at them. He can brawl but having a tether grab makes him to slow to grab so he is worse than Ness, Ganondorf, Mario; also none of his throws combo. He has a zair but it is shorter than Samus/ZSS. He has a zoning tool in PK fire but it doesn't combo like Pikachu's. He has a walling tool in Fair but it is outclassed by true wallers. He gets decent combos like brawlers but they are not true and rely on a lot of DI/disadvantages option reading to be able to continue and he has poor out of shield options so unlike (Bowser, G&W, Mario, Luigi) But then he has ridiculous off stage brawling capabilities with his large jumps, air dodge, and tether but doesn't even need to go off stage as PK thunder can simply cheese characters with a linear recovery at all percents and PK Freeze doesn't even need to hit to be effective as the opponent will have to air dodge to avoid and then might be out of range to recover. Ultimately, Lucas is a buffet style character, a little of everything with most options being lower grade quality compared to the true quality but has several little somethings that only that buffet has.
great video, best breakdown i have seen so far of the different character styles (along with rishis from a year or two back). love your thoughts on young link as a jack of all trades. def supports how i do best when i play the character-staying in a range where i can follow up or retreat. i do think his category may have been the least clearly defined-do you mean that opportunists have to play the the matchup more so than other archetypes? cause i def get that sense from YL and like diddy, and even when those two characters play vs each other.
Opportunists play to the opponents more than to their own tools, yeah! So i.e. Wario waits for an opening then capitalizes, rather than relying on making his way in using his own attacks or walling, et cetera.
Very surprised to see Link in the waller archetype, but I can definitely see it. With his bomb and boomerang being so core to his gameplay I thought of him more as a trapper. I guess his buttons are more key to his gameplan than his projectiles. In any case, excellent video, I always struggled with archetypes in Smash, without being able to put my finger on why. You definitely nailed the differences between traditional FGs and Smash in that aspect. Spendid video!
Thanks Aurios! Yeah Link is super flexible and has a lot of trapper and even zoner qualities, though if you look at the way Rang is used for example, it's mostly as a walling tool!
I'd argue Terry is more of a mid range character. Particularly an opportunist. Ftilt, fair, and crackshoot are all big mid range tools to poke and pressure, while crackshoot also doubles as a whiff punish tool. Power wave is a relatively high priority projectile that be more difficult to deal with because of its height, so you can't just swat it with an aerial But when he opens you up, he has jab, dtilt, nair to really just tear you up. Ive always compared him to wolf in terms of his flexibility.
I could see the argument for him being a zone breaker as well. Slow power wave to follow behind, his specials with huge range, several discounts to beat out several other moves
Everyone mis categorizes Villager. Unlike Min Min and Samus, who can ko from long range, Villy is almost never gonna score a ko with sling shot with rocket. And with tree at ledge and axe and frame 3 nair, a dsmash, (a character that sacrifices a smash attack for a literal up close trapping move) Villy has incentive to get closer and pressure you with jabs and turnips too not just nair. The slingshot and gyroid are just approaching tools to trick someone into shielding at the wrong time and getting grabbed, or jumping at the wrong time and getting up smashed. Up close options. Villy gets a lot from making the right choices at the ledge. Ledge guarding and ledge trapping with the f smash and tree at the ledge is ideal. Usually, staying only at longe range with sling shots give very weak stray hits, and not enough knockback to gimp and rocket only kills you off the top way late very late in percentages. You wanna ideally be middle range or even close range with sling shot so the move does some real damage and has some good OOMF to it. I agree with your placing of snake ans zelda, but with knight and din fire, and with grenade and nikida missile, they dont have any incentive to approach when it comes to edge gaurding or koing. They let you approach them. Villy has to rush in there and brawl too. A misc. Mix of trapper/brawler. Surprisingly. You get a lot of pressure of nair up close and better reward making reads up close than far away cuz you can bury. And axe evil up close. A frame 5 aerial smash atk rly. And tree uprooting people is definitely a trapping move that takes a lotta thought; more so than some other trappers cuz its less free, ya gotta half water after it planting it then water again, takes more clever setup than other trappers where the set up just takes one button press then back to their neutral interactions
Great analysis of Smash's archetypes! There's two things I'd like to say regarding the video: Firstly, with the reveal of Sora, what archetype would you likely place him in given what we've seen in his trailer? Second, based on these archetypes I'd actually say there's a second characteristic besides the Range divide: Active vs. Reactive. Trapper, Opportunist, and Zonebreaker all seem to have playstyles that tend towards reacting to a particular opponents playstyle, whereas Zoner, Waller, and Brawler are much more direct and generally impose their gameplan onto their opponent
Zonebreaker is active because they are so forceful of their opportunities. Brawler is reactive because they suck at getting into the close range unlike zonebreakers. For this reason, brawlers must play a reactive, read based play style.
Lucario is the kind of character that gameplan changes with different percents, and also different matchups. Def has to play differently at all times, which makes him fun to use. e.g. against swordies, it's long range game for neutral, then mid range lucario loses, then close range, it's who ever has the download who wins. Against zoners, def feels like you gotta play mid range, close range vs them. So in other words, it's more about what tools your opponent doesn't have, then capitalize on that -just some random nobody Lucario main tho x3
I agree that K. Rool is sort of a mixed bag in terms of his archetype. imo he definitely has some zoning qualities but I think his trap game is more prominent between his ledge trapping and returning crown setups, although his cannonball can control the stage/zone well in certain matchups where it's safe for k rool to play at that range (since blunderbuss is slow and can be punished easily if used incorrectly). Up close I also think he has some solid options like nair and approaching with pivot cancel ftilt, and his grab game is also fairly strong. He can also capitalizes very hard off of reads, being able to get things like down tilt buries, and just his strong moves in general. Good vid overall, thinking about archetypes for characters in this game is usually difficult for me since there's so many ways you can play the game, but this definitely helped.
Yeah K Rool is such a mixed bag, it's imo part of what makes him subpar as a character. If he had more focus he could definitely play a more solid gameplan.
It finally seems clear to me at this point that every character I ever tried does NOT fall into the zonebreak category and also every character that gives me problem the most is actually a zonebreak. So, how do I theoretically counter zonebreak? Baiting the burst option with tricky movements? Pushing them to the corner before they strike? Everything I have tried so far doesn’t seems very rewarding, also, except for little Mac, all the characters in that list are pretty strong actually.
1:50 genuine question: Isn't it footsies when Cloud spaces a sHop bAir or when Fox dash dances just outside the opponent's threat range? I totally get that it's different, but I don't understand why you would say Smash only "kinda has footsies".
Mii gunner depending on moveset can be a zoner with charge shot and flame pillar, or a trapper with grenade and bomb drop. Could Miis be considered stance change or their own unique category?
My opinion on the misc section: Icies: Brawler Sonic: Long Range oppertunist Rosa: Mid range Brawler Lucario: kinda jack of all trades master of none Steve: Long Range Brawler I guess? Hero: feels like he wants to be a trapper that gets forced to either zone or wall in most matchups Lucas: Mid Range brawler Mewtwo: Honestly just a bad waller with a good advantage state K. Rool: Bad zoner that can transition into a bad oppertunist when he needs to R.O.B.: Trapper-Brawler somehow
Considering how my main is Dark Pit, my secondaries are Cloud, Joker, Mii Swordfighter, and Hero, and I'm considering making Sora my new main, I seem to favor mid-range characters.
14:33 having a good neutral doesn't fit for a mid-range character ? It sounds kinda wrong to me tbh, would you mind explain further ? For being able to stand at this range, you would need some decent tools I guess, am I wrong ?
15:37 what do you mean by ZSS breaking apart the opponent (you said the same thing a few time ago, zss being good at destroying the opponent's gemplan so I would like some explanations sry) ?
@@jipekfl6692 Opportunists focus on capitalizing on the opponent's flaws rather than pushing their own strengths! ZSS has really good zonebreaking opportunities due to her Zair, huge burst range (Rising Fair and even grab), safe landing aerials, and even DownB vs projectile characters. She also has excellent horizontal AND vertical mobility!
Daisy/Bowser comain here. Daisy can be a brawler and be rewarded for mashing buttons on your face, turnips however makes her mid range very, VERY strong, and many times she can force approaches. Her fair has also a very good range. Bowser also has an amazing mid range game. His hitboxes are huge, fair range is compared to a sword by a lot of people, and that's his main neutral tool (and best move in general). Can be played aggressive, but due to his big range and very fast speed, he can play a safe bait and punish game. Also fire breath. idk to me those characters doesn't feel the same as Mario, Kirby, Game and watch, or Mii brawler, i also have doubts on other characters in that tier but i talked about the characters i play.
In Smash they don't inform much about what the character wants to do. I.e. Rosalina and Ice Climbers are entirely different, and I doubt you'd want to play both because both control a secondary character. Similarly PT and Aegis are entirely different as well!
While it's interesting, I disagree on characterizing the archetypes only on the ranges of the attacks, many characters who have similar ranges play totally different
Toon Link’s projectile arent really the best long range tools. His arrows barely does any damage, his boomerang is easily telegraphed and only combos on the way back (too telegraphed then to be a long range tool rather than a mid ranged one), or immediately as it comes out (so obviously close range tool). For those reasons i agree Toon Link is a trapper more than a zoner. I disagree on Ridley’s placement as a ridley main. While ridley has a good belmont-like ftilt, his other tilts being combo starters, his amazing dthrow, and his nair which, despite being huge, holds up better punishes as an approaching aerial rather than a retreating one (nair autocancel combos, we dont see much of them in bracket due to ridley’s poor representation but the discord has loads of them) imo mean ridley’s goal is to get closer more often than not. At low percents, ridley will play some quick footsies like captain falcon would, trying to find the right starter, then optimally do a 40% combo. Then, he would keep fishing for dthrow>fair/bair or try to whiff punish with dash attack. Overall though i dont believe in ridley’s ability to consistently put up a lot of hitboxes do as to wall out the opponent. Id put ridley as an opportunist. I do agree mewtwo is weird. However, just a quick correction, his only good rising aerial is nair. All his other rising aerials are pretty bad (with 0 percent rising fair being -5 *on hit* for example). This list is really great, and actually fits my philosophy for what a character archetype should be like. Amazing take on this!
Only reason I say this is because of how I play Greninja but I think Greninja can play all these play style to a degree it just depends on how they play Greninja
@@RamsesEsports I feel that two since you get your big damage or reward from that but vs brawlers and zoner breakers the style of ICs you play more like a waller where your sticking out pokes like Dtilt ftilt and blizzard so they can’t get in and whale on you since ICs has bad frame data up close
Let me know what archetypes your character falls into!
Zonebreaker, I never really knew what archetype zss is (before this video). Great video!
Zonebreaker (ZSS) & opportunists (Joker & Wolf)
@@DavidVG711 ZSS can definitely fit multiple archetypes, even i.e. midrange walling! She's super diverse hahah
Lucas is miscellaneous in your archetype list or I would call him a close range midrange disjoint hybrid or a limited hybrid.
Lucas has way too many factors to place in any normal archetypes, he is not strong in any too many areas
@@Kragglover2003 That's fair!
While Joker's core game is still finding opportunities to pressure whiffs, he can wall pretty well with gun/ftilt/bair/nair/eiha, zone with eiagon (arsene only), and if his opponent can't punish nair he can zonebreak/brawl pretty well too.
He has secondary traits as a waller and zonebreaker but it's not his primary archetype! No character is just 1 archetype I think :)
@@RamsesEsports Yeah I don't disagree that it's his primary strategy
Chrom actually has really good walling too.
I think Ryu is more of a hybrid tbh. I know his brawler buttons are strong, but his opportunist whiff punish options are more consistent for a gameplan imo. He even has trapper and waller qualities with his fireball options.
Either way cool video.
Thx for the vid, thinking about archetypes in smash has bothered me literally for years but this makes a lot of sense, great video!
Thanks Ambrow! Yeah archetypes in Smash are so hard to define.
Nice video! These archetypes makes a lot more sense for Smash than the traditional FGC ones. Also really like that you show relevant gameplay for each archetype
Shoutouts to my awesome editor Lonpos!
I think you’re really onto something here, and there is a lot of accuracy here. I just feel like some characters that are misplaced, like Ridley and Ness are more opportunists I think and some other small things, but it’s overall amazing gj!
That's totally fair! It's hard to place all 80+ characters as just little old me hehe :) Thanks fro the kind words!
I would define characters by floaty, fast-faller, and mid-fallers. Then by whether or not they have good pokes.
If they're a floaty, I know they need to stay close to the ground, if they're fast-fallers they'll be incentivized to jump more
If they have better powerful pokes and neutral options, then I'll approach more. If they don't, I'll force them to approach.
This seems more helpful to me than trying to find the distinction between a Trapper and a Zoner. Or to figure out what the heck is an opportunist is
Then it falls apart when u realize that floaties like peach, sora, and G&W love to jump while fastfallers like incin, mac, and Kazuya need to stay on the ground
I know I'm late but I'd like to share a few thoughts and changes I would make. This is a brilliant idea and fits smash way better than any other archetype system I've ever seen. I love it. I'm just sharing changes I personally would make.
I feel the essence of this breakdown is the range (and to an extent style) a character wants to play neutral, and the main goal of my changes is to fit every single character. I think I've got it.
first I'll define the archetypes I used from shortest to longest range. they're very similar to yours:
Rushdown: It's pretty much just zonebreaker, which I see as the smash version of rushdown, even if it isn't exactly the same as a normal fighting game. They're close range characters who utilize their close range strength with speed and mobility. Most aggressive characters in neutral.
Brawler: the strongest close range characters, but without the strong tools to get there. Often like aggressive opportunists
Waller: The strong mid range characters. Will use lots of preemptive hitboxes to keep an opponent in an ideal range
Setup: characters who will play in different ranges depending on circumstances other than neutral/advantage state
Trapper: Characters who will use one range in neutral but will switch for advantage. probably needs a better name. encompasses the projectile wallers
Zoner: These characters will just win from long range. generally, if they land a projectile and then don't close in, it's a zoner.
Opportunist: These characters don't have a range, because they play to their opponent's weaknesses rather than their own strengths. They will simply wait at any range the opponent can't reach until they can capitalize on a weakness. Will have either decent mid range or decent mobility.
Now, Character specifics, with explanations where I feel necessary. Anyone I don't mention I just keep in the same place you put them:
New Zoners:
Zelda and Snake: often won't close in even on hits
New Trappers:
Link, Young Link, K.Rool and Mii Swordfighter: all use projectiles to set up advantage and then get closer
Belmonts: reverse of above. melee -> projectile
New Wallers:
Mythra and Chrom: while fast, none of their moves actually need any close range
New Brawlers:
Jiggs, Wario, and Squirtle: Don't have the tools to play defensively, so they fit better here
Lucario: Has very little defense, but insane offense and fits here quite well
New Rushdowns:
Bowser: he is actually quite fast and plays extremely aggressively
New Opportunists:
G&W: Tends to be very defensive and punish oriented
Sonic: very fast, but also tends to be more defensive and punishing
IC's: very very strong punish game, so I feel they go here
Setups:
Rosalina, Isabelle, and Duck hunt: use attacks that must be placed before use
Hero, Robin, and Steve: Resource management goes here
Wii Fit and ROB: cooldown moves
All done. I still can't quite place Inkling, Bowser Jr. or Lucas. I think they're maybe brawlers but I don't know for sure
Sick!! Love the post :)
Bowser junior is: annoying just add the archetype and plenty will fit in it😊
I would argue Banjo is a hybrid character, (although trapper definitely fits him). He can zone effectively with his projectiles. He can trap with grenades. He can wall with Kazooie sword disjoints. He can be a midrange opportunist with breegull blaster combos. He can zonebreak with egg approaches, and brute force his way in with wonderwing. He can be a brawler with his boxing tools and close range nair/grab combo loops. He's a jack of all trades in a way.
Personally I think Luigi should be put the the Opportunist category. Even though Luigi can fight close to his opponents he mostly relies on baiting his opponents into a grab combo.
One of the things that make Smash so fun when compared to other fighting games is how flexible a character can be in any given situation. I've picked up Joker recently, and while I agree he's an opportunist, he has the tools to perform a variety of roles. Like you said, there's a lot of crossover in the categories. Lucina is my main, and in certain matchups (both character and player), sometimes you play her more like Chrom, looking to zonebreak with dtilt and falling aerials. Sometimes you play an opportunistic game, whiff punishing with grab thanks to her fast run speed, or with a rising aerial. These little things keep me coming back to the game because it's so fun to work out the best ways to win with any given character.
For sure!! You can express yourself even within dedicated playstyles too. Are you a patient or aggressive zonebreaker? Et cetera. Best of luck with the Joker!
In other figthing game you can do the same either you know,smash dont have more freedom than any FG(excepto probably MK/Injustice,everyone in that games are zoners,basically a 2d shooter)
Using your method of classifying archetypes in smash, I personally would move -
-Isabel to trapper (using sling shot to force the opponent in leading to down b or side b)
-inkling to brawler or opportunist (has a gameplan somewhere between mario and diddy)
-squirtle to zone breaker (wants to force his way in for grab combos or fast/aireals)
-ike could possibly be a waller( fwd air and nair create a huge wall thats hard to punish)
-GNW to waller (back air, nair, & fwd air make it tough to approach)
-sonic to zone breaker (even though sonic can camp his gameplan to dish out damage/start combos is to get in)
-lucario to opportunist (baiting moves from opponents and punish is most of his gameplan, with mixup between projectile, aerials, and uptilt to start combos)
-lucas to waller (keeping the opponent out with side b and punishing get ins with nair)
-mewtwo to opportunist or waller (using shadow ball, nair and bair to keep opponents at bay until its m2s "turn"
-krool to waller (using crown and Canon ball to keep opponent out and using nair or fwd air to punish if they get in)
-ICs to brawler (most of they're damage is done through be in the opponents face with nair, side b, desyncs etc)
-rosa to waller (using Luma to force opponents to stay at range shes comfortable with)
-rob to opportunist (uses gyro to force opponents to make decisions [ jump, shield, attacks ] and punishes
Love the ideas put forth here. Personally I would love to see a tier list with each character having a pie chart that displays the " amount " of archetype that they have. For example: Link would have a 60% waller but also 40% trapper sort of chart. Idk just spit balling. Awesome vid tho!
I agree with your last point - every character is a combination! Interesting thoughts. Thanks for your contribution!
@@RamsesEsports wasn't trying to be the "critic asshole" btw...I just love when people make content like this and ask their/the community their take on it as well.
Again good vid homie, hope to see more!
Don't worry! I love this type of discussion as well. Thanks again :D
K. Rool can work as Misc, but I'd argue he edges out more as an Opportunist.
He has a hard time getting his klaws on you for a reason and by George, you don't wanna let him pick his punish options cause he loves it when you screw up.
*Nair for combos, B-Air for beefy landings, & Fair for both
*Amazing throw game, especially if he reads your mash at 90-100% with D-Throw
*Strong coverage and fairly easy edge-guarding with lingering Nair, Dair for 2-Frames, and Vaccum with a platform
*D-Tilt > F-Smash at 60%-70+%
*Countless amount of cheese from said bury moves, Gut Check, F-Throw > B-Air off-stage, etc...
All while utilizing his Krown and Nair's armor to find out openings at mid-range since his normals are too laggy for up-close and projectiles too telegraphed.
My "Young Link does everything" movement strikes again
All arounder like palutena and Wolf ?
I can’t express how much I appreciate you putting the links in different archetypes
18:28 “hey guys apparently bowser has a frame 9 command grab”. All jokes aside though. Great video, seriously! I learned a lot from this video. Never would’ve figured out that Zelda is a trapper and not a full on zoner lol 😂.
Glad to hear you enjoyed it!!
This is brilliant bro!! You really took a practical approach to this and you nailed it! 👍🏾
Thanks man! Appreciate the enthusiasm hehe
I think Steve belongs to the zoner category. You said "he kinda keeps the opponent at long range until he gets diamond and then he turns into kind of a brawler". The same would also apply to wii fit with her deep breathing and sun projectile.
Yeahhh but then again he doesn't really actively keep the opponents out, he just has a wall there. It's hard to say!
@@RamsesEsports yes but he doesnt have to actively keep opponents out. He sits behind his oppressive walls and forces you to take massive risks if you want to turn that long range into a shorter range. Pac-Man also is not really active when he keeps his opponents out he just charges his thing and acts if the opponent tries to get in. It's reactively keeping people out, not actively. There's a category of zoner-ish characters where their goal is to play at the long range until they become a more powerful character and then they try to use their tools to get in and land massive reward. Pac-Man, Steve, Wii Fit, Hero all play a bit like this. Olimar and charge shot characters also become stronger as they play at the long range but like you said in the trapper section, those characters never really have to leave the long range since their zoning tools actually pose a threat by themselves.
@@noahc6804 problem with Steve is if he doesn't have a lead, he has nothing he can do to pressure you to approach
Going by the video and my experience playing Steve, I think it makes sense to classify him a trapper primarily. Putting up walls and mining usually forces opponents to approach, which allows Steve to counterattack appropriately.
Also the Minecart, TnT, and other abilities make Steve great at ledge guarding and forcing opponents into disadvantageous situations. I think though that Steve's average speed, poor range, lack of strong approach options, but strong combos and frame data up close could put him in the brawler as well. It's a bit situational.
It's a spectrum anyway, it may be better to rank each character at how effective they can perform at each particular range and tactic/strategy, rather than place them by their strongest style.
Falcon is definitely an opportunist, not a zone breaker. He has nothing to "brute force" his way in besides his movement speed when moving in. No disjoints, no projectiles, his aerials are good on shield but not great besides maybe perfect -4 nair 1/2. His bad turnaround makes him heavily committal as well. I also wouldn't call raptor boost "brute forcing" your way in. You kind of have to combo into it or read your opponent with it to make it work at all.
Yeah more on the opportunist side
Id really like to see a deep dive in how to approach a fight with each archetype here, maybe a series?
this is the BEST archetype video for smash
Appreciate it dude!
Lucas is a hybrid but more of a limited one
Lucas is a rush down/disjoint zoner/advantage state projectile hybrid character with mid range emphasis in my observation.
Makes sense!
He seems most like a waller to me
I remember you touching on this in your video reviewing Sajam's video on understanding matchups!
The LORE
Def Isabelle is a trapper, her main game plan is keeping you stuck at ledge using loid, by covering your options
That's after winning neutral
to this day i don't understand why Ganondorf was not created as a zoner
look his boss Battle in ocarina, he never gets near you
also i think Wolf and Yoshi are Better suited there
because as Pacman, their projectiles don't cover much but they don't lose much by spamming It mid range
Based off of in game that would make sense, but idk being a pure brute force brawler fits his personality better for some reason imo
@@spicymeatballs2thespiceninghe's literally a warlock though. He is super jacked though ngl
I already knew your twitter, but I didn't know you had a RUclips channel ! I really like your explanations and the fact that you answer as much as possible in the comments
This video made me realize: I suck at fighting zonebreakers. Thats can be solved so much better than "I struggle in certain Matchup" Thank you a lot ramses!
Godspeed!!
i am by no means an expert, but i watch T3 Dom play belmonts a lot. I think he is one of the best representatives of the char and in my opinion he plays him as more of an oppurtunist than anything else. from what i have seen of his gameplay, the side b and down b in nuetral condition opponents in order to set up for his strongest position: ledgetrapping. IMO his win condition is that ledgetrapping, so i personally would call him an opportunist.
T3 Dom recently won 2 MSM's back to back over Larry Lurr, Void (idk if they played, but he attended), and some other notable So-Cal players. I would be really interested in an analysis video of that personally! Gonna post this in discord too in case anybody else has thoughts.
No character is just one archetype! So Belmonts do have a lot of trapper qualities, for sure.
I like the opproach , because smash is a bit more open in terms of movement
to understand ranges this archtypes work , but I think smash charakters also have traditional fighting game archtypes ontop of this ,wich you sometimes need to understand the characters toools and to understand how they deal with specific situations.
I can't decide whether or not I agree with you about the belmonts, the more I think about it, they seem like a hybrid of trapper and waller. But at the same time they seem like such a extreme example of some archetype, they have such clear strengths and weaknesses.
That's fair, traps are very core to their play as well.
@@RamsesEsports Would you consider them mid range or long range? Seems like they only wall to then have the space to set up a trap and force you to approach with an uncomfortable situation. Which would be more of a long range trapper strategy. They really shine at the long range and don't want to stay midrange. They play midrange just to play their trapper long range
@@SantanaBanana47 I think in essence they play mid range. They just play the outer edge of it, similar to Sephiroth. Mid range is a pretty abstract range, and your & your opponents' tools define a lot of what mid range is in a given matchups.
Thanks man, very insightful.
To make it simple an opportunist is basically a bait and punish character a Waller will throw out a bunch of disjointed hit boxes to keep you in check. A brawler has a bunch of strong close ranged hits and kill very early/have good combos. Just to keep it simple that’s all.
Yep!
I find your personal take on the subject and the archetypes very original and interesting.
Honestly, most of your Miscellaneous characters can be placed quite easily for me:
- Ice Climbers is more of a brawler to me because their neutral is quite bad and they want to get closer to you to do deadly desync combos.
- I would place Sonic as a Zone breaker character because he can come close to you quite easily and move freely because of his speed and spin dash options.
- I would see Lucario more as a brawler but just with a very special trick which can extand his range and power at some point.
- I think Steve fits the Brawler archetype well because even if he has to zone because of his gameplay, the finality of his gameplan is mostly to get the diamond weapon and come close to you with power and good frame data.
- Mewtwo is definitely a Waller character to me, he plays similarly to Sephiroth, Corrin and Byleth and has a strong main projectile like them.
- And it looks obvious to me that R.O.B. would be a Trapper character because of the gyro but with good brawler attributs, much like Snake.
- Concerning Hero I really don't know because depending of what spell he has, he can basically do anything. The only identifying trait I see is his frame data on normals is kinda bad.
- And Lucas I would have said Oportunist maybe? But I don't really know.
- Maybe K.Rool could be a bad Trapper because of the blunderbuss that can suck you in and other projectiles.
K rool is definitely trapper
By your criteria, Lucas would be a zonerbreaker/brawler.
Like you said, the brawler is where he gets his payoff and most damage output.
Zair is used outside the opponents burst range so lucas can get in and brawl and the djcz proves that range desire which is the same mentality as ZSS's Zair.
PK fire is used the same way Pikachu's T-jolt is, as a way to approach OR as a zoning tool. Also as a kill option which makes it more of a zoning tool like charge shot but it can't combo like charge shot, t-jolt, ness pk fire, arc lightning, holy water, or other trapping tools.
He is definitely not a waller as he is outclassed by most of the wallers on your list. Yes his Fair, Zair, and PK fire can wall out some characters without the range of a waller but he is really bad at it and I wouldn't define a characters game plan as "be a bad version of X." Also his walling tools don't work against many of the Opportunist/Waller/Brawler archetypes because his end lag can be beat out by their speed, I thinking all swordfighters, Mario, Yoshi, and Inkling specifically.
Thinking of his match-up charts that he can mimic their playstyles, he is similar to ZSS and Pikachu. Both of those match-up are a game of chicken with their zoning/walling tools with the winner getting in and brawling followed by a rinse and repeat of the zoning/walling. Lucas has a lot of tools similar to others but is usually worse at them.
He can brawl but having a tether grab makes him to slow to grab so he is worse than Ness, Ganondorf, Mario; also none of his throws combo. He has a zair but it is shorter than Samus/ZSS. He has a zoning tool in PK fire but it doesn't combo like Pikachu's. He has a walling tool in Fair but it is outclassed by true wallers. He gets decent combos like brawlers but they are not true and rely on a lot of DI/disadvantages option reading to be able to continue and he has poor out of shield options so unlike (Bowser, G&W, Mario, Luigi)
But then he has ridiculous off stage brawling capabilities with his large jumps, air dodge, and tether but doesn't even need to go off stage as PK thunder can simply cheese characters with a linear recovery at all percents and PK Freeze doesn't even need to hit to be effective as the opponent will have to air dodge to avoid and then might be out of range to recover.
Ultimately, Lucas is a buffet style character, a little of everything with most options being lower grade quality compared to the true quality but has several little somethings that only that buffet has.
Thanks for the detailed comment! I think your assessment is very fair. I'll keep this information in mind for the future!
Two Things:
1. Would you use "Trapper" and "Setup Character" synonymously?
2. i really like the editing in this video!!
- Keppu
Thanks Keppu! And yeah to some degree. Some characters can set up in midrange as well though :)
great video, best breakdown i have seen so far of the different character styles (along with rishis from a year or two back). love your thoughts on young link as a jack of all trades. def supports how i do best when i play the character-staying in a range where i can follow up or retreat. i do think his category may have been the least clearly defined-do you mean that opportunists have to play the the matchup more so than other archetypes? cause i def get that sense from YL and like diddy, and even when those two characters play vs each other.
Opportunists play to the opponents more than to their own tools, yeah! So i.e. Wario waits for an opening then capitalizes, rather than relying on making his way in using his own attacks or walling, et cetera.
@@RamsesEsports ok yea that makes perfect sense, thank you
absolute genius video
Very surprised to see Link in the waller archetype, but I can definitely see it. With his bomb and boomerang being so core to his gameplay I thought of him more as a trapper. I guess his buttons are more key to his gameplan than his projectiles.
In any case, excellent video, I always struggled with archetypes in Smash, without being able to put my finger on why. You definitely nailed the differences between traditional FGs and Smash in that aspect. Spendid video!
Thanks Aurios! Yeah Link is super flexible and has a lot of trapper and even zoner qualities, though if you look at the way Rang is used for example, it's mostly as a walling tool!
I'd argue Terry is more of a mid range character. Particularly an opportunist.
Ftilt, fair, and crackshoot are all big mid range tools to poke and pressure, while crackshoot also doubles as a whiff punish tool.
Power wave is a relatively high priority projectile that be more difficult to deal with because of its height, so you can't just swat it with an aerial
But when he opens you up, he has jab, dtilt, nair to really just tear you up.
Ive always compared him to wolf in terms of his flexibility.
I could see the argument for him being a zone breaker as well.
Slow power wave to follow behind, his specials with huge range, several discounts to beat out several other moves
All fair points!! Love the discussion. Just goes to show how variable characters can be played :D
Everyone mis categorizes Villager. Unlike Min Min and Samus, who can ko from long range, Villy is almost never gonna score a ko with sling shot with rocket. And with tree at ledge and axe and frame 3 nair, a dsmash, (a character that sacrifices a smash attack for a literal up close trapping move) Villy has incentive to get closer and pressure you with jabs and turnips too not just nair. The slingshot and gyroid are just approaching tools to trick someone into shielding at the wrong time and getting grabbed, or jumping at the wrong time and getting up smashed. Up close options. Villy gets a lot from making the right choices at the ledge. Ledge guarding and ledge trapping with the f smash and tree at the ledge is ideal. Usually, staying only at longe range with sling shots give very weak stray hits, and not enough knockback to gimp and rocket only kills you off the top way late very late in percentages. You wanna ideally be middle range or even close range with sling shot so the move does some real damage and has some good OOMF to it. I agree with your placing of snake ans zelda, but with knight and din fire, and with grenade and nikida missile, they dont have any incentive to approach when it comes to edge gaurding or koing. They let you approach them. Villy has to rush in there and brawl too. A misc. Mix of trapper/brawler. Surprisingly. You get a lot of pressure of nair up close and better reward making reads up close than far away cuz you can bury. And axe evil up close. A frame 5 aerial smash atk rly. And tree uprooting people is definitely a trapping move that takes a lotta thought; more so than some other trappers cuz its less free, ya gotta half water after it planting it then water again, takes more clever setup than other trappers where the set up just takes one button press then back to their neutral interactions
Great analysis of Smash's archetypes! There's two things I'd like to say regarding the video:
Firstly, with the reveal of Sora, what archetype would you likely place him in given what we've seen in his trailer?
Second, based on these archetypes I'd actually say there's a second characteristic besides the Range divide: Active vs. Reactive. Trapper, Opportunist, and Zonebreaker all seem to have playstyles that tend towards reacting to a particular opponents playstyle, whereas Zoner, Waller, and Brawler are much more direct and generally impose their gameplan onto their opponent
Cool distinction! I think it's very apt for sure :D
Sora looks like a mid range fighter, so probably either waller or opportunist!!
@@RamsesEsports I feel like Sora's probably a Waller, considering his insane combo game and neutral special.
Zonebreaker is active because they are so forceful of their opportunities. Brawler is reactive because they suck at getting into the close range unlike zonebreakers. For this reason, brawlers must play a reactive, read based play style.
Lucario is the kind of character that gameplan changes with different percents, and also different matchups. Def has to play differently at all times, which makes him fun to use. e.g. against swordies, it's long range game for neutral, then mid range lucario loses, then close range, it's who ever has the download who wins. Against zoners, def feels like you gotta play mid range, close range vs them. So in other words, it's more about what tools your opponent doesn't have, then capitalize on that
-just some random nobody Lucario main tho x3
Well put
The fact he can play effectively in a variety of ways makes him pretty underated imo. He's got a basic kit, but it's also well rounded.
I agree that K. Rool is sort of a mixed bag in terms of his archetype. imo he definitely has some zoning qualities but I think his trap game is more prominent between his ledge trapping and returning crown setups, although his cannonball can control the stage/zone well in certain matchups where it's safe for k rool to play at that range (since blunderbuss is slow and can be punished easily if used incorrectly). Up close I also think he has some solid options like nair and approaching with pivot cancel ftilt, and his grab game is also fairly strong. He can also capitalizes very hard off of reads, being able to get things like down tilt buries, and just his strong moves in general.
Good vid overall, thinking about archetypes for characters in this game is usually difficult for me since there's so many ways you can play the game, but this definitely helped.
Yeah K Rool is such a mixed bag, it's imo part of what makes him subpar as a character. If he had more focus he could definitely play a more solid gameplan.
@@RamsesEsports He's stupid fun for me imo but I replace Game & Watch to play him and he's underwhelmed. Still, stupid fun.
It finally seems clear to me at this point that every character I ever tried does NOT fall into the zonebreak category and also every character that gives me problem the most is actually a zonebreak. So, how do I theoretically counter zonebreak? Baiting the burst option with tricky movements? Pushing them to the corner before they strike? Everything I have tried so far doesn’t seems very rewarding, also, except for little Mac, all the characters in that list are pretty strong actually.
Not committing and baiting options then punishing through proper defensive movement
Sonic is an opportunist. He's arguably the best whiff punisher in the game.
Beautifully explained by the legend himself!!
Ty Kaizer!!
So I actually kinda think sora is an opportunist. Well, I play him as a mix of some projectiles, and rushdown while punishing anyone’s bad approach.
1:50 genuine question: Isn't it footsies when Cloud spaces a sHop bAir or when Fox dash dances just outside the opponent's threat range?
I totally get that it's different, but I don't understand why you would say Smash only "kinda has footsies".
I think Kazuya is more of an opportunist due to his crouch dash movement imo
I also feel he could zonebreak due to his flexible crouch dash as well
Kazuya is so strange I don’t actually know where I’d put him lmaooo
Mii gunner depending on moveset can be a zoner with charge shot and flame pillar, or a trapper with grenade and bomb drop. Could Miis be considered stance change or their own unique category?
Id count them as unique characters!
My opinion on the misc section:
Icies: Brawler
Sonic: Long Range oppertunist
Rosa: Mid range Brawler
Lucario: kinda jack of all trades master of none
Steve: Long Range Brawler I guess?
Hero: feels like he wants to be a trapper that gets forced to either zone or wall in most matchups
Lucas: Mid Range brawler
Mewtwo: Honestly just a bad waller with a good advantage state
K. Rool: Bad zoner that can transition into a bad oppertunist when he needs to
R.O.B.: Trapper-Brawler somehow
Considering how my main is Dark Pit, my secondaries are Cloud, Joker, Mii Swordfighter, and Hero, and I'm considering making Sora my new main, I seem to favor mid-range characters.
Me too!!
i feel like you explained them decently but maybe need to make a post that differentiates those last 3 tiers.
Brawler, Zonebreaker, and Misc?
@@RamsesEsports apologies, opportunist, brawler, zone breaker
I think wario should be in the zone braking category because of his air mobility
That's fair, zonebreakers and opportunists have a lot of overlap either way.
Really late to this video but I was also wondering in your opinion which archetypes compliment each other, in the sense of a main and secondary
A comment to please the algorithm. Robin is indeed a trapper.
Commenting for the algorithm
algo rith m
Good spot for link!!!
Bump for the blessings of the algorithm
14:33 having a good neutral doesn't fit for a mid-range character ? It sounds kinda wrong to me tbh, would you mind explain further ? For being able to stand at this range, you would need some decent tools I guess, am I wrong ?
15:37 what do you mean by ZSS breaking apart the opponent (you said the same thing a few time ago, zss being good at destroying the opponent's gemplan so I would like some explanations sry) ?
@@jipekfl6692 Opportunists focus on capitalizing on the opponent's flaws rather than pushing their own strengths!
ZSS has really good zonebreaking opportunities due to her Zair, huge burst range (Rising Fair and even grab), safe landing aerials, and even DownB vs projectile characters. She also has excellent horizontal AND vertical mobility!
Daisy/Bowser comain here.
Daisy can be a brawler and be rewarded for mashing buttons on your face, turnips however makes her mid range very, VERY strong, and many times she can force approaches. Her fair has also a very good range.
Bowser also has an amazing mid range game. His hitboxes are huge, fair range is compared to a sword by a lot of people, and that's his main neutral tool (and best move in general). Can be played aggressive, but due to his big range and very fast speed, he can play a safe bait and punish game. Also fire breath.
idk to me those characters doesn't feel the same as Mario, Kirby, Game and watch, or Mii brawler, i also have doubts on other characters in that tier but i talked about the characters i play.
That's all fair!
What is the rush down alternative
Zonebreakers who don't camp
Maybe this will help end my crisis LOL
o7 good luck soldier
You didn’t put Belmont into projectile spammer category disliked unsubbed reported
Thanks Nox I appreciate it.....
Im a bit confused what about balanced archetypes that is my play style
is puppet and stance an archetype
In Smash they don't inform much about what the character wants to do. I.e. Rosalina and Ice Climbers are entirely different, and I doubt you'd want to play both because both control a secondary character. Similarly PT and Aegis are entirely different as well!
what are these names? just say bait and punish etc
What would you say Sora fits into?
He seems like a waller mostly to me, but overall he's pretty well rounded!
While it's interesting, I disagree on characterizing the archetypes only on the ranges of the attacks, many characters who have similar ranges play totally different
Toon Link’s projectile arent really the best long range tools. His arrows barely does any damage, his boomerang is easily telegraphed and only combos on the way back (too telegraphed then to be a long range tool rather than a mid ranged one), or immediately as it comes out (so obviously close range tool). For those reasons i agree Toon Link is a trapper more than a zoner.
I disagree on Ridley’s placement as a ridley main. While ridley has a good belmont-like ftilt, his other tilts being combo starters, his amazing dthrow, and his nair which, despite being huge, holds up better punishes as an approaching aerial rather than a retreating one (nair autocancel combos, we dont see much of them in bracket due to ridley’s poor representation but the discord has loads of them) imo mean ridley’s goal is to get closer more often than not.
At low percents, ridley will play some quick footsies like captain falcon would, trying to find the right starter, then optimally do a 40% combo. Then, he would keep fishing for dthrow>fair/bair or try to whiff punish with dash attack. Overall though i dont believe in ridley’s ability to consistently put up a lot of hitboxes do as to wall out the opponent. Id put ridley as an opportunist.
I do agree mewtwo is weird. However, just a quick correction, his only good rising aerial is nair. All his other rising aerials are pretty bad (with 0 percent rising fair being -5 *on hit* for example).
This list is really great, and actually fits my philosophy for what a character archetype should be like. Amazing take on this!
Mewtwo and Dedede has the same "unsafe on hit fair at zero percent" thing
Only reason I say this is because of how I play Greninja but I think Greninja can play all these play style to a degree it just depends on how they play Greninja
Not really. I could see how he could be a bit of a zone breaker and and opportunist though
ICs would probably be a waller
They could also be Opportunist
@@ASN_JAY I think SideB fits opportunist tendencies!
@@RamsesEsports I feel that two since you get your big damage or reward from that but vs brawlers and zoner breakers the style of ICs you play more like a waller where your sticking out pokes like Dtilt ftilt and blizzard so they can’t get in and whale on you since ICs has bad frame data up close
@@ASN_JAY Makes a lot of sense!! Thanks for the clarification Jaden :D
rob is busted lol
No printerrrrr