Respectfully riddles, you aren’t reacting to mythras tilts or aerials but there is such thing as predicting and if you think “spamming dair” as pyra is unpunishable neutral then you have another thing coming. Pyra/mythra are not top five
Dr. Mario is actually the best character because he focused on his Education rather than Fighting. Other than that I can agree with a lot of this Tier List
Ganondorfs only chance to win a tournament other than a local was within the first 8 months of the games lifespan. The character genuinely sucks and regular tourny attenders have gotten a lot better and become way more campy over time
They may be his biggest threat, but honestly I don’t think he does as bad against swords as people say. And with Pyra/Mythra, he has a pretty good time edge guarding them. Not saying that he wins against them, but I personally think he’s better than people give him credit. And current results don’t necessarily 100% equal tier placement. He may not be like top 10, but I think he’s much better than most of the characters that Riddles put above him. But that’s just me.
@@binko6046 Not really since literally almost everything combos into each other, thats only really the case if your not getting hit or mario is playing to win neutral instead of playing to win
He has fireball to condition approaches against swordies and has death combos starting at like 20%. I don't think sword character MUs are as bad for him as people think tbh.
@@suennn I’ve replied to other comments stating what I disagree with. I didn’t put it in this comment as I wanted to focus on the fact that Riddles gave good reasoning for the placements, despise me not agreeing with them.
@@DaRealJake don't worry mate, I agree with you, there are something that I disagree with like Pythra being the best, Belmont's being that high, and Sora being that low, but he made good arguments
People always calling Cloud a bad character for his recovery always saying "just edgeguard bro" like damn im sure the TOP players wouldve done that by now and yet they never seem to be doing that majority of the time or they be saying "just parry" like damn sounding a lot like Esam and that man got lapped not only by Sparg0 but by Kola as well completely switching how he thinks not to mention that one set where Esam tried to edgeguard Sparg0 and got spiked because he didn't respect the fair range. Cloud is a character that needs to be respected in battle cause like what Tweek said one false move and your already taking 40-90 percent. Safe aerials, fast speed, good air mobility, long range, limit, OOS move, good landing option, lingering moves, zoning tool, juggle potential, etc. Everyone be downplaying Cloud because of his nerfs from sm4sh but in no way shape or form is Cloud a bad character I personally agree with Riddles on his placement as Cloud has the tools to really be on top and as Riddles said, his recovery is honestly not that bad. Cant wait to see the heated replies (cope)
This is facts. That list you made of good traits about Cloud are all true, and certainly top tier worthy traits. And I’m seeing a lot of comments saying “no way he’s top tier” without providing any justification for it lmao. His literal only weakness is his recovery which ain’t even that bad with the amount of mixups he has plus limit, and his up b is still a big sword disjoint so some characters struggle to hit it to begin with.
My man K Rool will get the respect he deserves someday!....but also you're totally right. If the opponent is letting me Nair them when I try to land, you bet your ass I'm going to keep Nairing! Beats almost anything. :)
I wanna main Lucas for the SOLE REASON everyone underestimates him. His frame data and kill power are genuinely to be feared, more people gotta play him. His grab game and neutral and tilts and aerials are all amazing too
Duck Hunt only needs decent can control and up air to destroy a lot of characters imo. I strongly disagree about them being unrewarding at all, if anything their damage output is absurd compared to most of the cast tbh.
Finally someone said it, it’s a similar situation with byleth and probably corrin in the future. Everyone bases tier list placements off of mkleo and spargo being good at the video game instead of their actual kit. Annoying asf
@@kingdeded3009 Definitely, this type of mindset is followed in bigger things like people following the mainstream overall, you know the one with the most influence in general outside of smash. I def feel like characters like Doc have a lot of potential still & should be researched more.
Umm sorry but big sword with safe normals and a good up B on shield makes cloud good. On paper he’s a top tier. Additionally he’s one of the most used characters in tournaments
@@ILoveToEatRed40 I don’t know enough about cloud to formulate an opinion on this. Maybe he’s actually a top tier, maybe he’s not. What I do know is that every single smash player called this character a mid tier until spargo started making waves, then suddenly top tier. Byleth was widely considered mid tier until Leo did atuff, and I assume corrin will end up the same
@@kingdeded3009 yeah this is a really common phenomenon but I try not to conflate "x character only being ranked highly after y player did well with them" with "x character is only ranked highly because y player does well with them". The thing is, ultimate has a massive roster, a lot of characters are just gonna end up under the radar until someone shows the world what they can do. That's why I try to formulate opinions on characters based on their innate tools and matchups with other characters. Results help to inform, but they're not the determining factor. I think someone like cloud/byleth isn't being rated higher solely because of leo/spargo, but rather that leo and spargo's performance with the characters have shown to the public that they have more tools than people initially realized. This happened with maister and Mr game and watch too, once a lower tiered character and now almost always near the top of tier lists. That's just how ultimate is, and I guess it's also that most players don't want to dig deeper on less seen characters, so they don't realize what they can do until someone makes them more visible.
As a k.rool main i can confirm that it took me ages to not nair out of hitstun. I watch kriby kid a shit ton and try to improve with him, but in the end he is a fun low tier character. And thats all that matters to me😁
I like playing Inkling, but totally agree with the placement. And honestly, I think they were always around that spot on the tier. Ink was hyped up at first, and I feel it stuck with people that that character was so good, when in reality they never were that great.
I think thats just a thing in this game with the characters that "cant kill" but win neutral basically for free. Like, shiek, inkling, YL, maybe fox. They are all insanely good but youll inevitably find yourself in those scenarios where you are just kind of stuck with a character past their confirm % and have to start fishing over the course of a set. When characters that also have great neutral and dont really fall into those situations also exist it just makes sense that they would come out on top in tourney settings. Inkling specifically i think was made around the idea that people would get hit by roller and on wifi that still carries pretty hard, but top level play roller aint hitting anyone.
pika main here, watch nitox play lucas. Top 5 in the Eu, Got top 1 and 3 at recent stacked tournaments and really shows what lucas can do. easily upper mid tier / bottom high tier.
I agree with Kazuya. He's a character that taught me how to optimize spacing, if you wall him out with disjoints or even wide hitboxes he kinda falls apart.
I wish they gave sephiroth wing from 0% and have his weight remain the same OR wing from same% but put him 1unit more than cloud's weight. It makes no fucking sense he is this light. It feels so unfair to see joker, mythra etc at midweight.
I think it would be okay if Sephiroth gotten wing at 60 instead of 80 percent. He would still feel like a glass Canon just a bit more leeway to use wing without feeling so scared of getting hit in one neutral interaction and possibly dying without getting to use wing. Joker always gets the chance to use Arsene because of an automatic regeneration of meter for Arsene combined with playing patient and dodging moves without even trying. Plus Joker gets Arsene 2 times way too often because of Arsene regenerating and Joker surviving because if his weight and shifty hurtbox.
I think the wing percentage is fine but I agree with you on the weight. He should definitely be heavier. Seph being lighter than Joker and Aegis makes absolutely no sense and is very unfair!!😞
@@EphYxRS do they kill/combo? Lol people are too focused on his nerfs from smash 4 where he was a straight up broken character. There is a strong case for him being top 10 in this game however.
Yoshidora has kind of shown Yoshi to not be that overrated imo. This tier list is really consistent, based on the criteria Riddles mentioned tho, so really well done and helpful. Edit: KAZUYA LOL. At least riddles says at the start every tier list is biased...
I main lucario and another thing that can bump him down is his matchup spread. I wouldn’t say lucario has a single hard winning matchup but he goes even with a lot of high tiers and some top tiers. There is not really character you can just turn your brain off and win (expect maybe bayo).
idk, I think a lot of people underrate Cloud alot because he has the tools, literally his only weakness is his shit recovery. ZSS though, I could somewhat agree but shes somewhere A (probably low A).
I personally think Pac is very underrated here and Cloud is super overrated overall. Hes great but nothing changed since the last time he was considered high tier, Sparg0 is just cracked.
@@Logan17258 I guess but the character still has losing MUs and a lot of them. I'd honestly put him at a solid top 10 but he is not better than most of the characters Riddles put him over.
@@vick7868 that’s kind of a contradictory statement. You’re not going to be a top 10 character if you lose a lot of MUs. And I can promise you he doesn’t lose that many MUs and his spread is extremely solid. Out of curiosity who do you think he loses to
@@Logan17258 sorry, that was a typo, I meant top 20. But I have a friend who mains Cloud and he said the losing MUs are characters like Mega Man, the rats, Min Min, Young Link, Joker, Aegis, Shulk, Greninja, Bowser and Sheik. There are a few more but off the top of my head I can't remember.
@@vick7868 Some of that makes sense, The ones I agree with are Pikachu, Joker, Greninja, and Shiek. Pichu just dies much too early a lot the time, and cloud only has to win neutral like once or twice to get him to death percent. Min Min honestly isn't that bad, especially after her nerfs. Young Link and Mega Man were actually characters I used to think Cloud lost to, but in reality at the time I just was not good at handling projectiles and did not know the MUs well enough. Every young link player ive seen a MU spread for has had Cloud in losing. Aegis I haven't fought one good enough to have a confident opinion, although Sparg0 thinks its even. Shulk I have always felt is even. Cloud has the mobility advantage by far besides speed art, and has much better camping and frame data than Shulk. Bowser is a debatable one. I think its an even MU. Bowser has a terrible disadvantage and Cloud can keep him from landing extremely well with up air. Bowser also cannot up b oos punish clouds aerials if they are properly spaced, and bowser does not have a single move safe enough to not get hit by clouds up b. That being said Bowser has the leverage offstage and neutral is fairly even. Sparg0's MU chart on twitter from December I would recommend looking at. Some MUs i would like to go into greater detail but this comment is already long asf so im not going to lol
31:50 Incin above mewtwo is actually so dumb😂 I love incin he is mid tier but mewtwo is def higher he has so much kill power, mix ups, range, good neutral like idk man
He only has good neutral in matchups where characters allow him to charge shadowball. If mewto cant play around his shadowball he is so bad in neutral because of dumb tail hurtbox which makes it easier for characters to hit him when hes dashing back and forth.
@@ricocarpenter2189 uncharged shadowball is good in some matchups but its generslly bad. The whole gameplan with mewto is to charge shadowball to force people to apporach you since while mewto has decent approach options and really good dash speed and sppeed in general, his big hurtbox and his tail mame it so hard o dash back and forth in neutral and its usually bad. So in matchups where he cant charge shadowball and approach he cant lose neutral often.
@@rookeyji5177 Having good approach options, speed, a spammy projectile, and a projectile that forces opponebts to approach sounds like a pretty good neutral to me
@@ricocarpenter2189 yep I agree. My point was that mewto is very reliant on shadowball for neutral so in matchups where cant execute his gameplan he struggles in neutral.
Can’t wait to see the *you know who* mains crying about how “No one has found their true potential,” and “Well, he can X in this one specific scenario, so he can’t be Y tier!” You know who you are.
@@hi-mx8xk tippers are powerful SOMETIMES, and side b tipper only works of the opponent puts their controller down and doesn't SDI. At least Lucina can kill consistently at >100 If you want tippers just play byleth or roy
Lucas' main strength is that he is good at two-framing IMO. If you take away f-tilt and down smash, he goes from top of mid tier to top of low tier. He literally goes even with palu, wolf, and roy only because he can two frame them really easily. Otherwise, those matchups are terrible. I say this as someone who played Lucas for a long time BTW.
@@mcrsmash8319 You can punish all the aerials, the back air and Forward air are punishable af, if you can’t parry wait on shield and punish, even with good spacing you can take advantage of that, has a mediocre disadvantage, and if he goes off-Stage he could die if hasn’t limit, but yeah “his aerials has no risk” sure . If there are people that think he is top tier on ultimate, I can’t imagine what they think about cloud from smash 4 .... upper high tier at most in this game.
For character like duck hunt you have to also consider matchup inexperience. They suck, but people don't know how to deal with them usually. So it makes them unapproachable
That is true for literally every single character in the game, and doesnt benefit Duck Hunt any more than it does every other character too. matchup experience factors into character matchup charts. When pro's do normal tier lists like this they are talking about things at the highest level, and focus on a characters overall strengths and weaknesses on their own in regards to the current meta of the game
@@DeemerAV riddles kept talking about tournaments in general. And not every character has the same inexperience. It's like how we all know how to get rid of jokers persona faster or how to camp Ganon. Then there's all those wacky Steve set ups no one but like 3 people have seen. So if we're just talking about a character being played as perfectly as possible, you are correct. But if we start talking about just tourneys in general, there's more opportunity for lesser used characters to win due to being lesser known
I mostly agree with the tier list except for pyra/mythra. I think she is just over-estimated. Spargo plays her, but plays Cloud more. Not many other notable top 10 players in the world play her constantly. If the opponent respects Pyra's moves and patiently waits for an opening, it's really hard to get that last hit in. Lack of fast projectiles. I think Cloud is higher on the tier list (projectiles), Steve close behind.
all pit needs is an arc-bair like lucina's, a slightly faster airspeed and an uptune on the start-up frames on their aerials. They'd be a solid high tier. Speaking from someone who used to main them, They have terrible problems with hitting people at an angle above or below them and also w/ their disadvantage state.
No? The only thing they need is better air speed and a better fair. They're already solid high tiers who are much more capable than what people (most especially top players) think of them. Their lack of character rep throughout the lifespan of the game really has shown to hurt them and make them so forgotten
Peach is better than those characters you mentioned.I don’t know where Riddles is getting these statistics on Peach when Muteace,Umeki and Ling long are doing well.
Most top tier peach players have been playing her since brawl. She truly isnt as great as people make her seem. Shes def better than cloud and sonic but im not sure about palu.
DDD’s down throw can actually lead into drag down uairs but no DDD is committed enough to learn that so they just spam gordo. don’t think he’s much better than where u put him, but he’s definitely held down by the player base.
dragdown uair combos aren't true and they're also not that hard you don't see any DDDs doing them because they're just not worth doing since they don't lead to any guaranteed combo extensions
As D3 main I would advise not doing that. It can be useful in a niche amount of characters with only very little benefit and it is not even guaranteed to work. Any character jump out, air dodge, hit with a fast move, etc, he just has too much landing lag on up air( or any of his Ariel's for it to work in general.) I will admit there is some things D3 players can do better on but, it is not on up air chains. I think he is just held back by major landing lag, and low kill power.
Top player have been hard snoozin on Lucas sense day 1, the anti-Lucas propaganda runs so deep that even our representatives are conflicted about his placement. Nitox going to Genesis 8 will hopefully help the case that Lucas is indeed part of the top 50% of the cast.
God pit/dark pit is one of those characters that if they had just a little more they'd be respected I personally think the pits are higher than where riddles places them
Bro no way you said Lucas has no range, have you seen his fair? It's one of the best fairs in the game. You didn't even bring up his biggest weaknesses, his out of shield and getting juggled. I honestly feel lucas should be way higher, he has free edgeguarding with thunder and freeze, great combos, good zoning, and can box up close (frame 2 jab, frame 3 down tilt, etc)
@@rookeyji5177 if said swordfighter is not braindead he can di up or mix up. Technically, borderline any character can get a kill from one neutral win if you do the right stuff
The only thing I disagreed with is Wolf’s placement, there’s a reason so many players dropped him. He’s good, probably high tier or bottom of top tier, but he is most definitely not that high. He has disadvantages, which is less than Steve, Palu, Sonic, and ROB at the least can say.
@@Brandon_4272 his air mobility makes it hard to edgeguard him. You basically have to read him to edgeguard him. And yes i agree he gets juggled although he does have fast fall airdodge
@@rookeyji5177 right but because of his predictable recovery option, it's easy, believe me, I'm a wolf main and online it's extremely difficult to not be edge guarded. Wolf is amazing but he definitely has a few flaws.like can get comboed and edge guarded
i think kirby and k rool should be higher. kirby first of all is terrifying with down b and side b, not to mention his squish kick and up b. also, he doesnt have wings but has multiple jumps. he's also tiny... for k rool... his neutral and up b scare me.
I think lowkey people underestimate how hard Steve is to play. His nil2 kill confirms have a 2 frame window to input. And you see people do like 3 nil2s in a row... then you take into account how most of his moves besides smash attacks have very, very, very shitty range. With nil2 combos you have to be VERY careful at placing the block RIGHT after the animation for uptilt finishes so its true
Most fucked up thing about ganon is that he is the only heavy without a kill throw. Your dumbass is so incredibly slow, you finally make your way over to your opponent somehow, get the grab, and... at 145 you back throw fucking olimar and they live. why. why do his throws have such trash angles and no knockback. even dedede f throw kills earlier than ganons throws.
@@santiagoherrera1853 little mac at least has top tier speed and a lot of surprising tools to deal with bad situations, Ganondorf has nothing and his burst range is the size of a toothpick.
Some of his takes on the lower characters with recent buffs are just his personal take guys , I do think they may breach C tier strictly off buffs and results frm reps just to give cred , but beyond that it’s not too deep
There's a lot I agree and a lot I strongly disagree. I agree with most characters, but I disagree with Puff on high, Zelda in low, Cloud on top and Ganon having his "own tier"
The unfortunate thing about it, though, is that Mii Swordfighter's frame data really does kinda suck. The single fastest option it has (down-tilt, or if someone's using the counter down-special) comes out at frame 5, when I believe, unless I'm completely mistsken, that most of the rest of the roster has at least one move somewhere in their kit that comes out as early as frames 2, 3, or 4...
@@gamexpert1990 True about that, Swordie's down tilt and Blade Counter is frame 5. Brawler has the better frame data and Gunner has the better projectiles, but Swordie got a "sword".
Considering the start up lag and end lag to sephiroth he should be heavier I wouldn't say he should be a heavy character but he should be average at least like sora weight
Regarding Mii Swordfighter: I'm not at all disagreeing with the placement, but I am disagreeing with the "fun fact, this character can't kill" statement. It might be a move that kinda sucks for frame data and range (y'know, like the rest of its kit), but if one uses Blurring Blade instead of Gale Strike for the neutral special, and you can get a read on your opponent doing something dumb like a poorly spaced air dodge, Mii Swordfighter then has the potential to kill a heavy like Bowser as early as around 50% at ledge. Also Mii Swordfighter's counter is on the stronger side and sends at a rare upwards angle instead of outwards, so if you can once again read an opponent's dumb option, kills off the top aren't entirely uncommon. So, yeah, Mii Swordfighter still abosulutely sucks, sadly, but please don't discredit them that harsh.
I still think that now that Pyra/Mythra have been dropped by MKLeo and Sparg0 people are finally gonna stop overrating the character. They’re like 6-7th in the game, not the best. They’re not even the best sword character: that’s Roy.
@@dave9515 I agree that best swordie is between Roy and Shulk. On paper I think it’s Shulk but in practice I’d say Roy. I also think that Aegis is still better than Cloud, despite Cloud winning the Cloud/Aegis matchup handily.
@@Manganimemer I am a firm believer people aren't counterplaying aegis right as in treating them as one character and respecting pyra too much and not exploiting their unsafe options and such. Mythra doesn't really have moves safe on shield and getting kills as mythra is hard and switching to pyra is becoming sword ganon and unless people think ganon is good then pyra can't be imo i mean she slow as molasses and her big moves take a while to come out which wouldn't be bad if she didn't have such terrible mobility. Mythra has a pretty weak neutral since she doesn't have much range and most moves lose to shield and pyra has safe moves but they take a long time to come out and pyra is so slow and has a horrible disadvatage state and foresight has a negative side to it like when mythra recovers or if you predict the airdodge because myhra's dodges are significantly laggier than the rest of the cast since she has foresight probably as a balancing mechanic also aegis's recovery is bottom 5 on top of all this. There is a lot you can do against mythra and pyra is unplayable imo. Mythra can't just spam nair on shield btw as its -10 on shield with 13 frames of landing lag and this is only one example of the framedata not being as good as people claim. Only safe aerial on shield is a spaced up air at -5 and fair at -7 but thats about it and fair range is small and most of myhtra's attacks aren't that active. If you parried mythra using any aerial you could definitely get a punish out on her. As for pyra side b you can just roll towards pyra and then throw her into a juggle and she can't attack once the sword is thrown and like i said she slow as molasses so you can easily get in and put her in disadvantage and the swap is a total of 32 frames which can easily be reacted to and punished and only invulnerable frames 6-18 so swapping between the 2 isn't even that safe either. I really think aegis is mad overrated but i think at max they could be top 15 but no higher imo. To me the best characters have bs neutral buttons so a great neutral and bs punish games or a bs punish game but weaker neutral and finally characters with completely bs neutrals but a somewhat lackluster punish game with most of these top tiers having a managable disadvantage state. I don't think pyra/mythra have much potential as characters. I think cloud has a pretty dumb neutral and he does his job well which is easily winning neutral and keeping people out but not far from him so in a way i think he might be better than lucina like idk but lucina isn't that great to me anymore. I think cloud could be top 10 material even with his flaws because his strengths are just so much larger. Cloud to me is a glass cannon turtling keep away character. I can understand why some might think aegis is better than cloud but i just don't see it personally and i used to think cloud was horrible in this game but now i think its become clear to me thanks to Spargo winning multiple majors offline and some more thinking and reflecting on ultimate as a game that cloud's linear neutral doesn't matter just like palu's because of all the mixups he has and how safe his neutral can be, killpower doesn't matter much when you can dish out damage like a truck and his recovery being the worst without limit isn't bad when its gonna be really hard getting him offstage since you have to win neutral against him when his neutral is insanely good. This is how i think of cloud and aegis personally.
Riddles thinks Mario is mid because Terry and to a lesser exstent Shotos force marios to use more then two brain cells. Mario is absolutely stupid, and the only reason people think he isn't is because most marios get away with doing the same brain dead shit at all there locals and get some results, and dick on people in friendlies. So when you force them to think there sinapses are already to withered to fire properly to play the characher dynamically at all rather then auto-piolete into a win though mashing. Being a little saucey obviously. Thanks for sharing your opinion though.
DK has won a major in JAPAN, wins more locals then any other heavy due to Chunky Kong, tweek played (and won) a blending DK into a super major. Maybe outside of Leon who Bowser mains. DK has had the most local and major wins, and showings in a super with a top 8 player.
I dont understand why lm is so underrated lol, some really not known players are amazingly good and can do insane true combos with the aerials ! nobody know the potential of this char..
I’m seeing so many comments saying “Cloud is overrated he’s just carried by Sparg0” People pretty much every character in this game is “carried” by 1 or 2 top players. You know why? Cause it’s ultimate. From previous smash games we’re used to seeing a ton of people play the same characters. Melee has 26 characters and more than half of them are pretty much unviable, so we see a ton of people playing the same characters. Smash 4 Bayo and Cloud were everywhere cause they were a good amount better than even other top tiers. Now look at Ultimate. Like 90 characters and almost all of them are usable in tournament. The game is so well balanced that people don’t need to flock to the same small group of characters to win, so there a ton of diversity. With the logic of “character isn’t good cause only 1 person does well with them” means that most characters in the game aren’t that good. Cloud is amazing, like many other characters. Top/high tier is large for a reason.
@@StriderZessei well people can think what they want about the quality of characters, but the reasoning of “there’s only one player” doesn’t work in ultimate
I personally disagree with saying sephiroth is not a top tier, what happens is sephiroth cannot be played with the same gameplay another swordfighter can, he can't mash atacks, but he is faster in movement than other characters, sephiroth is a cloud with more range, in my opinion it is imposible to consider cloud a top tier while saying sephiroth is a mid tier
Imo Sephiroth is the worst of the fighters pass 2 characters. He doesn’t have any where near the close quarters tools that any character in high tier plus have, and doesn’t equally compensate with camping potential because his projectile is ass. In this game close quarter combat is so much easier and more effective than trying to space all game, and I think Sephiroth is a prime example of that
@@dustinmartin6524 well it is easier, but sephiroth doesn't play to camp, sephiroth plays spacing what if you ask to me works very good, his proyectile is very bad, i agree there but the side b is really good not for camping but it is good for making pressure, saying playibg sephiroth is bad cause playing spacing is hard isn't correct imo just because it is worth it, and the one winged angel is scary, he can comeback a match very easily and it is that what makes sephiroth has really few bad matchups for last i totally disagree when saying sephiroth is the worst of fighter pass 2, while in game we have steve and kazuya, kazuya is by far harder than sephiroth, learning him rewards you with 0 to death from almost every move but you have to still play neutral game wich is in my opinion hell for kazuya, and well what happens to steve is that as there are not a lot of them we really do not know how to battle against him, same with characters like wii fit trainer.
@@dustinmartin6524 worst doesn’t mean bad, plus the rest of the Fighter pass 2 is too good, literally every character in that pass is top tier except Sora ._.
@@Kappyyyyyyy sephiroth's frame data just seems way too bad to be in top tier, he crumbles up close, he's as light as kirby and has terrible oos options. He just feels like too much risk for too little reward to be that high, idk man even tweek tried to make him work and he just got bodied. I really think sephiroth is the most overhyped newcomer in fp2, he's not bad but probably middle of the roster.
I dont agree with some of these takes especially cloud, I dont think he's that good of a character and spargo def carries. Sora Is definetely in the A tier minimum but understand why you placed him lower because there hasn't been too much of optimized sora play. I've seen MrDanish ButterCookies video recently and theres so many mix ups and confirms people are still finding out that are def doable. To see them in tourneys though it's just up to players that want to spend time with sora, I think he's one of the hardest charcters in the game to actually be good with because you have to be super consistent in your combos and know the character inside out, but the reward seems pretty high if you can do that
There's no point in making the argument "oh the character isn't that good they are just carried by insert player" You could say that for 95% of the roster. Most characters in ultimate only have 1 maybe 2 top level reps. No one really does much with Joker since Leo stopped playing them. What Luigi does well consistently besides Elegant? What Pikachu does anything besides ESAM? What Game and Watch does anything besides Maister? You see the problem here? So what, all these characters aren't that good they're just carried by the player? Sparg0 is also the best Aegis player, who is arguably the best character in the game. If Cloud wasn't that good and didn't have merit at top level don't you think he would just play Aegis instead? Cloud has pretty much everything you'd want in a character besides a broken recovery. This isn't even really a hot take anymore either. Both Dabuz and Light have him in top tier, and every other top player tier list you look at will have him in at least high tier.
@@Logan17258 its s blanket statement that you’re reading too much into, the player is always going to carry the character bc if it was other away around literally anybody could be winning tourneys if the characters are better than players skill. Usage to me doesnt mean much thats just the meta which inevitably shifts, in terms of how good characters are by themselves is different. doesn’t change my mind if someone wins a major like leo with byleth who is definitely not a top character. luckily smash has plenty of characters that are viable and people will use who they like, doesnt mean the character is amazing though. I can still say there are much better characters imo than cloud and i wouldnt put him near the top tier, they just pick characters that fit their gameplay which is fine but tourney placements and viability of a character. im sure one day we’ll see more mids win a tourney eventually but it wont change the fact that the character itself is mid
@@splish_2 yeah I understand that the Player will always carry the character, my point is that it feels like people need to see like 5 top players using the same character as a justification for their quality. Because so many characters are good in ultimate it’s normal for their to be very few reps of each character.
The disrespect to my man K.Rool is immeasurable but you ain't wrong on that nair. It's usually spammed if you allow them to. But the amount of conversions you can pull off with returning crown is not to be slept on. The funny thing about him is that he has decent matchups with some top tiers. Roy and Chrom are so screwed offstage. He can box with Wolf and edgeguard him with reverse bair offstage. And ROB is combo food at early percents and since he's big, crown conversions are light work on him. He should at least be C-Tier imo.
Timestamps -
0:00 Intro
0:18 Ganondorf
1:18 Dr. Mario
1:56 Little Mac
2:31 Zelda
3:49 Isabelle
4:28 Dedede
5:14 Kirby
5:49 Piranha Plant
6:21 Mii Swordfighter
7:29 Toon Link
8:07 King K Rool
9:31 Donkey Kong
10:32 Duck Hunt
11:51 Ice Climbers
12:53 Villager
13:33 Banjo & Kazooie
15:12 Ridley
16:17 Pit/Dark Pit
17:25 Bayonetta
18:51 Bowser Jr.
19:41 Lucario
20:57 Rosalina & Luma
22:29 Mewtwo
23:45 Mii Gunner
24:47 Meta Knight
26:02 Belmonts
28:44 Lucas
30:27 Marth
31:27 Incineroar
32:40 Jigglypuff
33:43 Wii Fit Trainer
34:41 Robin
35:18 Ike
35:54 Olimar
36:41 Sora
38:36 Yoshi
39:39 Luigi
40:39 Ryu
42:15 Ken
43:37 Corrin
44:36 Link
45:33 Pichu
46:11 Hero
47:22 Captain Falcon
48:29 Mii Brawler
48:52 Bowser
49:27 Inkling
50:18 Kazuya
53:48 Falco
54:27 Chrom
55:00 Ness
55:38 Byleth
56:29 Greninja
57:07 Sephiroth
57:45 Pac-Man
58:10 Sheik
58:53 Pokemon Trainer
1:00:07 Mega Man
1:00:47 Min Min
1:01:42 Samus
1:02:15 Young Link
1:02:58 Terry
1:03:57 Lucina
1:05:17 Fox
1:05:52 Mario
1:06:20 Mr. Game & Watch
1:07:21 Diddy Kong
1:07:58 Sonic
1:08:32 Snake
1:09:11 Shulk
1:09:40 ZSS
1:10:23 Steve
1:11:49 Cloud
1:13:08 Peach
1:13:41 Palutena
1:14:24 Wolf
1:15:33 R.O.B.
1:16:13 Roy
1:17:00 Pikachu
1:17:34 Joker
1:19:09 Pyra/Mythra
1:21:18 Outro
You forgot Wario!
Also, great list. I agree, Cloud is low S but I think Seph full potential is higher than B.
You’re godlike for all the timestamps
1:04:31 for wario if anyone was looking
Respectfully riddles, you aren’t reacting to mythras tilts or aerials but there is such thing as predicting and if you think “spamming dair” as pyra is unpunishable neutral then you have another thing coming. Pyra/mythra are not top five
@@averagejoe3099 who's ur top 5
Dr. Mario is actually the best character because he focused on his Education rather than Fighting.
Other than that I can agree with a lot of this Tier List
Correct
"be a thinker! Not a stinker!"- Apollo Creed
As a Doc main, I couldn’t agree more
"Ganondorf will never win a tournament." - Riddles 2022
Come back to this comment if Ganon actually does win one.
Poppt1 would like a word
Also Nairo vs light set
Ganondorfs only chance to win a tournament other than a local was within the first 8 months of the games lifespan. The character genuinely sucks and regular tourny attenders have gotten a lot better and become way more campy over time
Poppt1 won as Ganon 3 months ago
@@Manganimemer Someone once told me that if a Ganon is winning tournaments the region is pretty weak. Ganon will never win a major by himself.
I agree with mario’s placement, swords are my mans sleep paralysis demon and the inclusion of pyra/mythra alone have reduced his viability
They may be his biggest threat, but honestly I don’t think he does as bad against swords as people say. And with Pyra/Mythra, he has a pretty good time edge guarding them. Not saying that he wins against them, but I personally think he’s better than people give him credit. And current results don’t necessarily 100% equal tier placement. He may not be like top 10, but I think he’s much better than most of the characters that Riddles put above him. But that’s just me.
Mario doesn't struggle as much vs swords as ppl think tbh. To say he's B tier cause he has a few -1's is absurd
@@binko6046 Not really since literally almost everything combos into each other, thats only really the case if your not getting hit or mario is playing to win neutral instead of playing to win
sleep paralysis demon tho xd
He has fireball to condition approaches against swordies and has death combos starting at like 20%. I don't think sword character MUs are as bad for him as people think tbh.
Tier list has some oddities in my opinion, but Riddles gave good reasoning for the placements. Pretty good.
you must be a ganondof main because you only commented on riddles tier list and said that you disagree
@@suennn I’ve replied to other comments stating what I disagree with. I didn’t put it in this comment as I wanted to focus on the fact that Riddles gave good reasoning for the placements, despise me not agreeing with them.
@@DaRealJake don't worry mate, I agree with you, there are something that I disagree with like Pythra being the best, Belmont's being that high, and Sora being that low, but he made good arguments
People always calling Cloud a bad character for his recovery always saying "just edgeguard bro" like damn im sure the TOP players wouldve done that by now and yet they never seem to be doing that majority of the time or they be saying "just parry" like damn sounding a lot like Esam and that man got lapped not only by Sparg0 but by Kola as well completely switching how he thinks not to mention that one set where Esam tried to edgeguard Sparg0 and got spiked because he didn't respect the fair range. Cloud is a character that needs to be respected in battle cause like what Tweek said one false move and your already taking 40-90 percent. Safe aerials, fast speed, good air mobility, long range, limit, OOS move, good landing option, lingering moves, zoning tool, juggle potential, etc. Everyone be downplaying Cloud because of his nerfs from sm4sh but in no way shape or form is Cloud a bad character I personally agree with Riddles on his placement as Cloud has the tools to really be on top and as Riddles said, his recovery is honestly not that bad. Cant wait to see the heated replies (cope)
This is facts. That list you made of good traits about Cloud are all true, and certainly top tier worthy traits. And I’m seeing a lot of comments saying “no way he’s top tier” without providing any justification for it lmao. His literal only weakness is his recovery which ain’t even that bad with the amount of mixups he has plus limit, and his up b is still a big sword disjoint so some characters struggle to hit it to begin with.
all of this is fair, besides the esam part, because esam most of the time has the skill level of a elite smash player, and not a top ranking player
Because he is not top tier. Has two weaknesses bad recovery and an amount of BAD matchups enough to put him on high tier at most.
Cloud is really good, but I think his weaknesses make him top of high tier or bottom of top tier
My man K Rool will get the respect he deserves someday!....but also you're totally right. If the opponent is letting me Nair them when I try to land, you bet your ass I'm going to keep Nairing! Beats almost anything. :)
K rool suck
Mac deserves respect too if not more
@@Apollo_uwu yes and no at the same time it depends
I just wanted to say this is the best paced and informational tier list. Hands down.
I wanna main Lucas for the SOLE REASON everyone underestimates him. His frame data and kill power are genuinely to be feared, more people gotta play him. His grab game and neutral and tilts and aerials are all amazing too
his up smash is so scary
we will have to see how much the slingshot will change his spot in the tier list, but i imagine itll be alot
I don’t understand why people look down on Lucas. I hate him because he’s broken lol
Recovery is aas
@@JoshDoes his recovery is busted wym
Duck Hunt only needs decent can control and up air to destroy a lot of characters imo. I strongly disagree about them being unrewarding at all, if anything their damage output is absurd compared to most of the cast tbh.
@@chandyboy10 You are responding to the incredible dunk hunt player who just won Ultra Hard...
@@chandyboy10 bruh, he literally won a major with the character
@Angelic they definitely don't have slow speed, unless you love to use side b
wtf is doing cloud over there if it wasnt for spargo i´d have 0 idea about the existence of that character in ult.
Finally someone said it, it’s a similar situation with byleth and probably corrin in the future. Everyone bases tier list placements off of mkleo and spargo being good at the video game instead of their actual kit. Annoying asf
@@kingdeded3009 Definitely, this type of mindset is followed in bigger things like people following the mainstream overall, you know the one with the most influence in general outside of smash.
I def feel like characters like Doc have a lot of potential still & should be researched more.
Umm sorry but big sword with safe normals and a good up B on shield makes cloud good. On paper he’s a top tier. Additionally he’s one of the most used characters in tournaments
@@ILoveToEatRed40 I don’t know enough about cloud to formulate an opinion on this. Maybe he’s actually a top tier, maybe he’s not. What I do know is that every single smash player called this character a mid tier until spargo started making waves, then suddenly top tier. Byleth was widely considered mid tier until Leo did atuff, and I assume corrin will end up the same
@@kingdeded3009 yeah this is a really common phenomenon but I try not to conflate "x character only being ranked highly after y player did well with them" with "x character is only ranked highly because y player does well with them". The thing is, ultimate has a massive roster, a lot of characters are just gonna end up under the radar until someone shows the world what they can do. That's why I try to formulate opinions on characters based on their innate tools and matchups with other characters. Results help to inform, but they're not the determining factor. I think someone like cloud/byleth isn't being rated higher solely because of leo/spargo, but rather that leo and spargo's performance with the characters have shown to the public that they have more tools than people initially realized. This happened with maister and Mr game and watch too, once a lower tiered character and now almost always near the top of tier lists. That's just how ultimate is, and I guess it's also that most players don't want to dig deeper on less seen characters, so they don't realize what they can do until someone makes them more visible.
As a k.rool main i can confirm that it took me ages to not nair out of hitstun. I watch kriby kid a shit ton and try to improve with him, but in the end he is a fun low tier character. And thats all that matters to me😁
some guy in chat spent 5 minutes spamming “k rool should be higher” starting around 30:27 LMAO
I like playing Inkling, but totally agree with the placement. And honestly, I think they were always around that spot on the tier. Ink was hyped up at first, and I feel it stuck with people that that character was so good, when in reality they never were that great.
I think thats just a thing in this game with the characters that "cant kill" but win neutral basically for free. Like, shiek, inkling, YL, maybe fox. They are all insanely good but youll inevitably find yourself in those scenarios where you are just kind of stuck with a character past their confirm % and have to start fishing over the course of a set. When characters that also have great neutral and dont really fall into those situations also exist it just makes sense that they would come out on top in tourney settings. Inkling specifically i think was made around the idea that people would get hit by roller and on wifi that still carries pretty hard, but top level play roller aint hitting anyone.
I don't understand why ppl hate Inkling now. They're literally SO GOOD
@@Brandon_4272 ink always running out
pika main here, watch nitox play lucas. Top 5 in the Eu, Got top 1 and 3 at recent stacked tournaments and really shows what lucas can do. easily upper mid tier / bottom high tier.
"where is t man!?" agreed!! t, salem, izaw, silinator. All great links
This tier list is crazy to watch now
I agree with Kazuya. He's a character that taught me how to optimize spacing, if you wall him out with disjoints or even wide hitboxes he kinda falls apart.
I wish they gave sephiroth wing from 0% and have his weight remain the same OR wing from same% but put him 1unit more than cloud's weight.
It makes no fucking sense he is this light. It feels so unfair to see joker, mythra etc at midweight.
So you want him to be broken
No wtf. He isn't even awful, no reason to give him such a massive buff. Such a bad take
I think it would be okay if Sephiroth gotten wing at 60 instead of 80 percent. He would still feel like a glass Canon just a bit more leeway to use wing without feeling so scared of getting hit in one neutral interaction and possibly dying without getting to use wing. Joker always gets the chance to use Arsene because of an automatic regeneration of meter for Arsene combined with playing patient and dodging moves without even trying. Plus Joker gets Arsene 2 times way too often because of Arsene regenerating and Joker surviving because if his weight and shifty hurtbox.
@@sonicloud7774 also he can manually charge the meter with rebels guard.
I think the wing percentage is fine but I agree with you on the weight. He should definitely be heavier. Seph being lighter than Joker and Aegis makes absolutely no sense and is very unfair!!😞
Cloud S tier? No way. He's in the middle of A tier
At BEST.
@@StriderZessei indeed, at best lol
I used to think so too but this game really rewards spamming safe ariels.
@@christianbaker3564 there are many many characters that have much more safer aerials then Cloud
@@EphYxRS do they kill/combo? Lol people are too focused on his nerfs from smash 4 where he was a straight up broken character. There is a strong case for him being top 10 in this game however.
The only honest and accurate Smash Ultimate tier list ever made. Riddles with too much realness and hard facts for most Smashers up in this 👌
You know tier lists are opinion based, right?
Mii brawler is high tier. Fight me.
Yoshidora has kind of shown Yoshi to not be that overrated imo. This tier list is really consistent, based on the criteria Riddles mentioned tho, so really well done and helpful.
Edit: KAZUYA LOL. At least riddles says at the start every tier list is biased...
I main lucario and another thing that can bump him down is his matchup spread. I wouldn’t say lucario has a single hard winning matchup but he goes even with a lot of high tiers and some top tiers. There is not really character you can just turn your brain off and win (expect maybe bayo).
I think you're underestimating the cast. You're putting very good characters in the "kinda viable" tier
i think cloud and zss are too high, but other than that, this is a pretty solid list i can get behind
idk, I think a lot of people underrate Cloud alot because he has the tools, literally his only weakness is his shit recovery. ZSS though, I could somewhat agree but shes somewhere A (probably low A).
This is somehow my favorite tier list of any ultimate top player
My only nit pick is Mario in B tier other than that it's okay
I refuse to believe that Cloud is top 10.
I agree, Spargo carries hard
Yeah I think putting cloud in high tier would be extremely optimistic. He just doesn’t feel like a great character
Y’all have never fought a good cloud huh
Facts, cloud has had nothing but buffs. If you cant recover with him, you're not playing him right. Def top 10 top 15
@@yuntrey3407 he's high tier, not top tier.
I personally think Pac is very underrated here and Cloud is super overrated overall. Hes great but nothing changed since the last time he was considered high tier, Sparg0 is just cracked.
well no one saw what Cloud was capable of before Sparg0 showed everyone. That's the difference.
@@Logan17258 I guess but the character still has losing MUs and a lot of them. I'd honestly put him at a solid top 10 but he is not better than most of the characters Riddles put him over.
@@vick7868 that’s kind of a contradictory statement. You’re not going to be a top 10 character if you lose a lot of MUs. And I can promise you he doesn’t lose that many MUs and his spread is extremely solid. Out of curiosity who do you think he loses to
@@Logan17258 sorry, that was a typo, I meant top 20. But I have a friend who mains Cloud and he said the losing MUs are characters like Mega Man, the rats, Min Min, Young Link, Joker, Aegis, Shulk, Greninja, Bowser and Sheik. There are a few more but off the top of my head I can't remember.
@@vick7868 Some of that makes sense, The ones I agree with are Pikachu, Joker, Greninja, and Shiek. Pichu just dies much too early a lot the time, and cloud only has to win neutral like once or twice to get him to death percent. Min Min honestly isn't that bad, especially after her nerfs. Young Link and Mega Man were actually characters I used to think Cloud lost to, but in reality at the time I just was not good at handling projectiles and did not know the MUs well enough. Every young link player ive seen a MU spread for has had Cloud in losing. Aegis I haven't fought one good enough to have a confident opinion, although Sparg0 thinks its even. Shulk I have always felt is even. Cloud has the mobility advantage by far besides speed art, and has much better camping and frame data than Shulk. Bowser is a debatable one. I think its an even MU. Bowser has a terrible disadvantage and Cloud can keep him from landing extremely well with up air. Bowser also cannot up b oos punish clouds aerials if they are properly spaced, and bowser does not have a single move safe enough to not get hit by clouds up b. That being said Bowser has the leverage offstage and neutral is fairly even. Sparg0's MU chart on twitter from December I would recommend looking at. Some MUs i would like to go into greater detail but this comment is already long asf so im not going to lol
31:50 Incin above mewtwo is actually so dumb😂 I love incin he is mid tier but mewtwo is def higher he has so much kill power, mix ups, range, good neutral like idk man
He only has good neutral in matchups where characters allow him to charge shadowball. If mewto cant play around his shadowball he is so bad in neutral because of dumb tail hurtbox which makes it easier for characters to hit him when hes dashing back and forth.
@@rookeyji5177 Even then his neutral is still good. Unchanged shadowball is better in neutral anyway, d tilt is amazing, and he's incredibly fast.
@@ricocarpenter2189 uncharged shadowball is good in some matchups but its generslly bad. The whole gameplan with mewto is to charge shadowball to force people to apporach you since while mewto has decent approach options and really good dash speed and sppeed in general, his big hurtbox and his tail mame it so hard o dash back and forth in neutral and its usually bad. So in matchups where he cant charge shadowball and approach he cant lose neutral often.
@@rookeyji5177 Having good approach options, speed, a spammy projectile, and a projectile that forces opponebts to approach sounds like a pretty good neutral to me
@@ricocarpenter2189 yep I agree. My point was that mewto is very reliant on shadowball for neutral so in matchups where cant execute his gameplan he struggles in neutral.
Ever since I heard chippy say zss is socially acceptable sonic I can't unsee it
I do feel you Riddles
Man Plant is such a slept on character I really need to make a video explaining why she's so good
My man put Kazuya on the same tier as Jigglypuff
I can't wait for the angry comments!
Seeing PT that low iss craaazyyy.
Curious to see if the slingshot will help Marth's viability. I want to see a Leo Marth soooo badly lol
Can’t wait to see the *you know who* mains crying about how “No one has found their true potential,” and “Well, he can X in this one specific scenario, so he can’t be Y tier!”
You know who you are.
I actually have no idea, is it Kazuya mains? I only ever hear this from Kazuya and Bayo mains
@@musicdev i see three different examples in this comment section alone and its been less than an hour
Marth mains. I hate them because they can't cope with the fact that Lucina is better.
@@hi-mx8xk tippers are powerful SOMETIMES, and side b tipper only works of the opponent puts their controller down and doesn't SDI. At least Lucina can kill consistently at >100
If you want tippers just play byleth or roy
Little Mac mains
Besides a few placements in the high and top tier, I heavily fw this list🙏
Lucas' main strength is that he is good at two-framing IMO. If you take away f-tilt and down smash, he goes from top of mid tier to top of low tier. He literally goes even with palu, wolf, and roy only because he can two frame them really easily. Otherwise, those matchups are terrible. I say this as someone who played Lucas for a long time BTW.
I really can’t see Tink being worse than regular Link
Wolf is so good and everyone knows it, which is also why everyone knows the match up.
i swear, playing against pyra/mythra:
playing against mythra: "WTF THATS SO BROKEN"
playing against pyra: "yo this person is actually inbred"
No way that cloud is on top tier 💀, I respect your opinion tho
He is. He’s completely broken. Unpublishable and can just throw at ariels in neutral with no risk
@@mcrsmash8319 good bait
@@Ericspil790 it’s not bait you’ve obviously never played against a top level cloud
@@mcrsmash8319 You can punish all the aerials, the back air and Forward air are punishable af, if you can’t parry wait on shield and punish, even with good spacing you can take advantage of that, has a mediocre disadvantage, and if he goes off-Stage he could die if hasn’t limit, but yeah “his aerials has no risk” sure . If there are people that think he is top tier on ultimate, I can’t imagine what they think about cloud from smash 4 .... upper high tier at most in this game.
For character like duck hunt you have to also consider matchup inexperience. They suck, but people don't know how to deal with them usually. So it makes them unapproachable
That is true for literally every single character in the game, and doesnt benefit Duck Hunt any more than it does every other character too. matchup experience factors into character matchup charts. When pro's do normal tier lists like this they are talking about things at the highest level, and focus on a characters overall strengths and weaknesses on their own in regards to the current meta of the game
@@DeemerAV riddles kept talking about tournaments in general. And not every character has the same inexperience. It's like how we all know how to get rid of jokers persona faster or how to camp Ganon. Then there's all those wacky Steve set ups no one but like 3 people have seen. So if we're just talking about a character being played as perfectly as possible, you are correct. But if we start talking about just tourneys in general, there's more opportunity for lesser used characters to win due to being lesser known
I mostly agree with the tier list except for pyra/mythra. I think she is just over-estimated. Spargo plays her, but plays Cloud more. Not many other notable top 10 players in the world play her constantly. If the opponent respects Pyra's moves and patiently waits for an opening, it's really hard to get that last hit in. Lack of fast projectiles. I think Cloud is higher on the tier list (projectiles), Steve close behind.
I agree Pythra is still top tier, bit I don't think a character can have that bad of a recovery and be nest in the game
all pit needs is an arc-bair like lucina's, a slightly faster airspeed and an uptune on the start-up frames on their aerials. They'd be a solid high tier. Speaking from someone who used to main them, They have terrible problems with hitting people at an angle above or below them and also w/ their disadvantage state.
And please fix his down b 😭
No? The only thing they need is better air speed and a better fair. They're already solid high tiers who are much more capable than what people (most especially top players) think of them. Their lack of character rep throughout the lifespan of the game really has shown to hurt them and make them so forgotten
I believe Peach is better than Cloud, Sonic and Palu. Im not sure about she being over Steve. That character has a lot of potential.
Peach is better than those characters you mentioned.I don’t know where Riddles is getting these statistics on Peach when Muteace,Umeki and Ling long are doing well.
Most top tier peach players have been playing her since brawl. She truly isnt as great as people make her seem. Shes def better than cloud and sonic but im not sure about palu.
DDD’s down throw can actually lead into drag down uairs but no DDD is committed enough to learn that so they just spam gordo. don’t think he’s much better than where u put him, but he’s definitely held down by the player base.
Yeah! I got hit with that the other day actually
dragdown uair combos aren't true and they're also not that hard
you don't see any DDDs doing them because they're just not worth doing since they don't lead to any guaranteed combo extensions
As D3 main I would advise not doing that. It can be useful in a niche amount of characters with only very little benefit and it is not even guaranteed to work. Any character jump out, air dodge, hit with a fast move, etc, he just has too much landing lag on up air( or any of his Ariel's for it to work in general.)
I will admit there is some things D3 players can do better on but, it is not on up air chains. I think he is just held back by major landing lag, and low kill power.
I’m gonna take a shot for every time you said “ You feel me” lol
29:46 Just look up Nitox vs Oryon
Top player have been hard snoozin on Lucas sense day 1, the anti-Lucas propaganda runs so deep that even our representatives are conflicted about his placement. Nitox going to Genesis 8 will hopefully help the case that Lucas is indeed part of the top 50% of the cast.
Pit just needs a hit hitbox on the entirety of his sword
God pit/dark pit is one of those characters that if they had just a little more they'd be respected
I personally think the pits are higher than where riddles places them
wdym
Don’t think I didn’t catch that Random Encounter music from SMT Nocturne at the end of the list. Respect!
Kirby below plant is crazy af 😂
A tier list I 99% agree with. Love it Riddles!
I'm putting this guy in my video
I've never seen Cloud being S tier, I wish to believe it but I know most other people don't
That raises the question. Do you think cloud isnt top tier because other people dont. Or do you personally believe he isnt top tier. If so why not?
I believe he's not top tier because of other people and other youtubers opinions even though I'm a Cloud main
@@stephenmahilum4770 you’re supposed to gauge a character’s viability by their attributes, not the opinions of others
@@raymondkim6243 that's the problem with a lot of tier lists
@@raymondkim6243 other people can do that
Bro no way you said Lucas has no range, have you seen his fair? It's one of the best fairs in the game. You didn't even bring up his biggest weaknesses, his out of shield and getting juggled. I honestly feel lucas should be way higher, he has free edgeguarding with thunder and freeze, great combos, good zoning, and can box up close (frame 2 jab, frame 3 down tilt, etc)
In a combat against a speedy character or sword fighter. Lucas loses most exchanges to them. The saving grace is pk fire and zair
play him, you will cry
@@rayminishi689 against sword fighters,a neutral win for lucas can lead to a kill via edgeguarding
@@rookeyji5177 if said swordfighter is not braindead he can di up or mix up. Technically, borderline any character can get a kill from one neutral win if you do the right stuff
People underestimate cloud, I feel like he always been good.
Yeah a lot of people saw he was worse than smash 4 and wrote him off. Although to be fair the buffs he got in 7.0 were extremely important
He’s been super good, but I don’t see top tier 10-15 at all
The only thing I disagreed with is Wolf’s placement, there’s a reason so many players dropped him. He’s good, probably high tier or bottom of top tier, but he is most definitely not that high. He has disadvantages, which is less than Steve, Palu, Sonic, and ROB at the least can say.
Rob def has more disadvantages than wolf. Wolf i general is a solid character and has no weaknesses.
@@rookeyji5177 can get edge guarded and juggled
@@Brandon_4272 his air mobility makes it hard to edgeguard him. You basically have to read him to edgeguard him. And yes i agree he gets juggled although he does have fast fall airdodge
@@rookeyji5177 right but because of his predictable recovery option, it's easy, believe me, I'm a wolf main and online it's extremely difficult to not be edge guarded. Wolf is amazing but he definitely has a few flaws.like can get comboed and edge guarded
Joker is my favorite character in all gaming and you nailed EXACTLY why i don't play him so hard i feel personally attacked
Seems he forgot to add a timestamp for Wario. He talks about Wario at 1:04:32
I will stan ganondorf for the rest of time
i think kirby and k rool should be higher. kirby first of all is terrifying with down b and side b, not to mention his squish kick and up b. also, he doesnt have wings but has multiple jumps. he's also tiny...
for k rool... his neutral and up b scare me.
i would agree, the amount of times ive lost with kirby is very low compared to the other characters i use, a good timed side b is scary
wrong. kazuya and sephiroth should be in s
I think lowkey people underestimate how hard Steve is to play. His nil2 kill confirms have a 2 frame window to input. And you see people do like 3 nil2s in a row... then you take into account how most of his moves besides smash attacks have very, very, very shitty range. With nil2 combos you have to be VERY careful at placing the block RIGHT after the animation for uptilt finishes so its true
ewgf is a 2 frame input, do not make excuses for steve
@@quiet5299 do you need to time the ewgfs strictly right after a move 3 to 4 times in a row?
Yoshi is middle - top of B, not low... He's linear? Maybe but underrated for me!
I love ganondorf, I'm just so sad that he's so bad in this game...He deserves better
Most fucked up thing about ganon is that he is the only heavy without a kill throw. Your dumbass is so incredibly slow, you finally make your way over to your opponent somehow, get the grab, and... at 145 you back throw fucking olimar and they live. why. why do his throws have such trash angles and no knockback. even dedede f throw kills earlier than ganons throws.
Yeah, but I don't think he should have a tier of his own, I still think Mac is even or worse than Ganon
@@santiagoherrera1853 what..
@@santiagoherrera1853 little mac at least has top tier speed and a lot of surprising tools to deal with bad situations, Ganondorf has nothing and his burst range is the size of a toothpick.
@@santiagoherrera1853 Little Mac is bad due to his recover, Ganon is bad due to his everything.
The only good tier list on RUclips
You think Roy’s ledge trapping is better than Samus’s!? 🤨
Some of his takes on the lower characters with recent buffs are just his personal take guys , I do think they may breach C tier strictly off buffs and results frm reps just to give cred , but beyond that it’s not too deep
This is actually a really good tier list
Easily the best pro list imo, so many of them are wack
Like Peli’s, mf got Terry below Bayo
I personally disagree.
this is close to the worst lol
There's a lot I agree and a lot I strongly disagree.
I agree with most characters, but I disagree with Puff on high, Zelda in low, Cloud on top and Ganon having his "own tier"
@@patricknguyen4045 y'all on some massive amounts of copium lmao. Riddles is the only one who actually understands what works and what doesn't
Can anyone help name the song at 44:30? Thanks!
Cool tier list video btw, some interesting takes.
There's a segment or two with Gunz music and I just went through a nostalgia trip.
So I’m gathering that all the low tiers have some stuff you feel me?
Sup Riddles, love your YT content!
There’s just no way Mario isn’t s tier
Yeah wtf
Swordie can't catch a brake, huh? All 3 miis has potential, just need more people to push them since there's no more buffs.
The unfortunate thing about it, though, is that Mii Swordfighter's frame data really does kinda suck. The single fastest option it has (down-tilt, or if someone's using the counter down-special) comes out at frame 5, when I believe, unless I'm completely mistsken, that most of the rest of the roster has at least one move somewhere in their kit that comes out as early as frames 2, 3, or 4...
@@gamexpert1990 True about that, Swordie's down tilt and Blade Counter is frame 5. Brawler has the better frame data and Gunner has the better projectiles, but Swordie got a "sword".
Considering the start up lag and end lag to sephiroth he should be heavier I wouldn't say he should be a heavy character but he should be average at least like sora weight
idk why im here i just like playing kirby,k rool,dedede, and pokemon trainer
Cloud is A tier at best
Cloud is crazy good
Some takes seems terrible to me tbh
what an insightful comment
He is still 10 times better than me so I’ll accept what he said
Some comments seem terrible to me tbh
Jokers weakness is getting 2 framed when he uses arsene upb lol it's easy
I really vibe with this tier list. Keep up the great content man!
Can we all agree that R.O.B. and Steve are the most polarizing?
Thank you for putting Jigglypuff where she belongs
Beefy Smash Doods you sinners
Regarding Mii Swordfighter: I'm not at all disagreeing with the placement, but I am disagreeing with the "fun fact, this character can't kill" statement. It might be a move that kinda sucks for frame data and range (y'know, like the rest of its kit), but if one uses Blurring Blade instead of Gale Strike for the neutral special, and you can get a read on your opponent doing something dumb like a poorly spaced air dodge, Mii Swordfighter then has the potential to kill a heavy like Bowser as early as around 50% at ledge. Also Mii Swordfighter's counter is on the stronger side and sends at a rare upwards angle instead of outwards, so if you can once again read an opponent's dumb option, kills off the top aren't entirely uncommon.
So, yeah, Mii Swordfighter still abosulutely sucks, sadly, but please don't discredit them that harsh.
Lmaooo the Faust theme during Hero
I still think that now that Pyra/Mythra have been dropped by MKLeo and Sparg0 people are finally gonna stop overrating the character.
They’re like 6-7th in the game, not the best. They’re not even the best sword character: that’s Roy.
Roy blazing sword go brr. Although i say best swodie is between roy and shulk. Also cloud is a better character than aegis.
I don’t think sparg0 dropped her though. He’s just been on a cloud grind as of late.
@@gilbertguerrero2916 maybe not dropped completely sure but it’s at the point where he’ll only use them matchups they do really well in.
@@dave9515 I agree that best swordie is between Roy and Shulk. On paper I think it’s Shulk but in practice I’d say Roy.
I also think that Aegis is still better than Cloud, despite Cloud winning the Cloud/Aegis matchup handily.
@@Manganimemer I am a firm believer people aren't counterplaying aegis right as in treating them as one character and respecting pyra too much and not exploiting their unsafe options and such. Mythra doesn't really have moves safe on shield and getting kills as mythra is hard and switching to pyra is becoming sword ganon and unless people think ganon is good then pyra can't be imo i mean she slow as molasses and her big moves take a while to come out which wouldn't be bad if she didn't have such terrible mobility. Mythra has a pretty weak neutral since she doesn't have much range and most moves lose to shield and pyra has safe moves but they take a long time to come out and pyra is so slow and has a horrible disadvatage state and foresight has a negative side to it like when mythra recovers or if you predict the airdodge because myhra's dodges are significantly laggier than the rest of the cast since she has foresight probably as a balancing mechanic also aegis's recovery is bottom 5 on top of all this. There is a lot you can do against mythra and pyra is unplayable imo. Mythra can't just spam nair on shield btw as its -10 on shield with 13 frames of landing lag and this is only one example of the framedata not being as good as people claim. Only safe aerial on shield is a spaced up air at -5 and fair at -7 but thats about it and fair range is small and most of myhtra's attacks aren't that active. If you parried mythra using any aerial you could definitely get a punish out on her. As for pyra side b you can just roll towards pyra and then throw her into a juggle and she can't attack once the sword is thrown and like i said she slow as molasses so you can easily get in and put her in disadvantage and the swap is a total of 32 frames which can easily be reacted to and punished and only invulnerable frames 6-18 so swapping between the 2 isn't even that safe either. I really think aegis is mad overrated but i think at max they could be top 15 but no higher imo. To me the best characters have bs neutral buttons so a great neutral and bs punish games or a bs punish game but weaker neutral and finally characters with completely bs neutrals but a somewhat lackluster punish game with most of these top tiers having a managable disadvantage state. I don't think pyra/mythra have much potential as characters. I think cloud has a pretty dumb neutral and he does his job well which is easily winning neutral and keeping people out but not far from him so in a way i think he might be better than lucina like idk but lucina isn't that great to me anymore. I think cloud could be top 10 material even with his flaws because his strengths are just so much larger. Cloud to me is a glass cannon turtling keep away character. I can understand why some might think aegis is better than cloud but i just don't see it personally and i used to think cloud was horrible in this game but now i think its become clear to me thanks to Spargo winning multiple majors offline and some more thinking and reflecting on ultimate as a game that cloud's linear neutral doesn't matter just like palu's because of all the mixups he has and how safe his neutral can be, killpower doesn't matter much when you can dish out damage like a truck and his recovery being the worst without limit isn't bad when its gonna be really hard getting him offstage since you have to win neutral against him when his neutral is insanely good. This is how i think of cloud and aegis personally.
Sword fighter has Bair, First hit Fair, grounded up b, Chakram sets up kills on and off stage. Just Noone plays them
Riddles thinks Mario is mid because Terry and to a lesser exstent Shotos force marios to use more then two brain cells. Mario is absolutely stupid, and the only reason people think he isn't is because most marios get away with doing the same brain dead shit at all there locals and get some results, and dick on people in friendlies. So when you force them to think there sinapses are already to withered to fire properly to play the characher dynamically at all rather then auto-piolete into a win though mashing. Being a little saucey obviously.
Thanks for sharing your opinion though.
DK has won a major in JAPAN, wins more locals then any other heavy due to Chunky Kong, tweek played (and won) a blending DK into a super major. Maybe outside of Leon who Bowser mains. DK has had the most local and major wins, and showings in a super with a top 8 player.
Cloud over peach….. 🤦🏾♂️
I dont understand why lm is so underrated lol, some really not known players are amazingly good and can do insane true combos with the aerials ! nobody know the potential of this char..
I’m seeing so many comments saying “Cloud is overrated he’s just carried by Sparg0” People pretty much every character in this game is “carried” by 1 or 2 top players. You know why? Cause it’s ultimate. From previous smash games we’re used to seeing a ton of people play the same characters. Melee has 26 characters and more than half of them are pretty much unviable, so we see a ton of people playing the same characters. Smash 4 Bayo and Cloud were everywhere cause they were a good amount better than even other top tiers. Now look at Ultimate. Like 90 characters and almost all of them are usable in tournament. The game is so well balanced that people don’t need to flock to the same small group of characters to win, so there a ton of diversity. With the logic of “character isn’t good cause only 1 person does well with them” means that most characters in the game aren’t that good. Cloud is amazing, like many other characters. Top/high tier is large for a reason.
Doesn't change the fact that Riddles is overrating Cloud, probably because most swordies counter his main pretty hard, and yeah, Sparg0.
@@StriderZessei well people can think what they want about the quality of characters, but the reasoning of “there’s only one player” doesn’t work in ultimate
@@StriderZessei yep, cloud is a solid high tier, no less, no more. Looks like riddles Is overrating him due cloud is a rough matchup for Terry
I personally disagree with saying sephiroth is not a top tier, what happens is sephiroth cannot be played with the same gameplay another swordfighter can, he can't mash atacks, but he is faster in movement than other characters, sephiroth is a cloud with more range, in my opinion it is imposible to consider cloud a top tier while saying sephiroth is a mid tier
Imo Sephiroth is the worst of the fighters pass 2 characters. He doesn’t have any where near the close quarters tools that any character in high tier plus have, and doesn’t equally compensate with camping potential because his projectile is ass. In this game close quarter combat is so much easier and more effective than trying to space all game, and I think Sephiroth is a prime example of that
@@dustinmartin6524 well it is easier, but sephiroth doesn't play to camp, sephiroth plays spacing what if you ask to me works very good, his proyectile is very bad, i agree there but the side b is really good not for camping but it is good for making pressure, saying playibg sephiroth is bad cause playing spacing is hard isn't correct imo just because it is worth it, and the one winged angel is scary, he can comeback a match very easily and it is that what makes sephiroth has really few bad matchups for last i totally disagree when saying sephiroth is the worst of fighter pass 2, while in game we have steve and kazuya, kazuya is by far harder than sephiroth, learning him rewards you with 0 to death from almost every move but you have to still play neutral game wich is in my opinion hell for kazuya, and well what happens to steve is that as there are not a lot of them we really do not know how to battle against him, same with characters like wii fit trainer.
@@dustinmartin6524 worst doesn’t mean bad, plus the rest of the Fighter pass 2 is too good, literally every character in that pass is top tier except Sora ._.
@@Ericspil790 agreed, im not saying hes bad my any means. But the question was is he top tier, and my answer is no
@@Kappyyyyyyy sephiroth's frame data just seems way too bad to be in top tier, he crumbles up close, he's as light as kirby and has terrible oos options. He just feels like too much risk for too little reward to be that high, idk man even tweek tried to make him work and he just got bodied. I really think sephiroth is the most overhyped newcomer in fp2, he's not bad but probably middle of the roster.
Ive always main’d ganon… watching this was painful
I dont agree with some of these takes especially cloud, I dont think he's that good of a character and spargo def carries. Sora Is definetely in the A tier minimum but understand why you placed him lower because there hasn't been too much of optimized sora play. I've seen MrDanish ButterCookies video recently and theres so many mix ups and confirms people are still finding out that are def doable. To see them in tourneys though it's just up to players that want to spend time with sora, I think he's one of the hardest charcters in the game to actually be good with because you have to be super consistent in your combos and know the character inside out, but the reward seems pretty high if you can do that
he put cloud above shulk, he's def smoking some good shit lmfao
@@chad762 To be fair somehow Shulk still has no relevance in the meta except Kome when he's not using aegis
There's no point in making the argument "oh the character isn't that good they are just carried by insert player" You could say that for 95% of the roster. Most characters in ultimate only have 1 maybe 2 top level reps. No one really does much with Joker since Leo stopped playing them. What Luigi does well consistently besides Elegant? What Pikachu does anything besides ESAM? What Game and Watch does anything besides Maister? You see the problem here? So what, all these characters aren't that good they're just carried by the player? Sparg0 is also the best Aegis player, who is arguably the best character in the game. If Cloud wasn't that good and didn't have merit at top level don't you think he would just play Aegis instead? Cloud has pretty much everything you'd want in a character besides a broken recovery. This isn't even really a hot take anymore either. Both Dabuz and Light have him in top tier, and every other top player tier list you look at will have him in at least high tier.
@@Logan17258 its s blanket statement that you’re reading too much into, the player is always going to carry the character bc if it was other away around literally anybody could be winning tourneys if the characters are better than players skill. Usage to me doesnt mean much thats just the meta which inevitably shifts, in terms of how good characters are by themselves is different. doesn’t change my mind if someone wins a major like leo with byleth who is definitely not a top character. luckily smash has plenty of characters that are viable and people will use who they like, doesnt mean the character is amazing though. I can still say there are much better characters imo than cloud and i wouldnt put him near the top tier, they just pick characters that fit their gameplay which is fine but tourney placements and viability of a character. im sure one day we’ll see more mids win a tourney eventually but it wont change the fact that the character itself is mid
@@splish_2 yeah I understand that the Player will always carry the character, my point is that it feels like people need to see like 5 top players using the same character as a justification for their quality. Because so many characters are good in ultimate it’s normal for their to be very few reps of each character.
My friends hate my sonic since they can’t outrun me and that they play combo food characters. I don’t play online btw spectrum internet doesn’t let me
The disrespect to my man K.Rool is immeasurable but you ain't wrong on that nair. It's usually spammed if you allow them to. But the amount of conversions you can pull off with returning crown is not to be slept on. The funny thing about him is that he has decent matchups with some top tiers. Roy and Chrom are so screwed offstage. He can box with Wolf and edgeguard him with reverse bair offstage. And ROB is combo food at early percents and since he's big, crown conversions are light work on him. He should at least be C-Tier imo.