TLOU2: The Science and Psychology of Revenge
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- Опубликовано: 15 июл 2024
- Today we’re going to explore the Science and Psychology of Revenge in TLOU2 , including the far-ranging emotional impacts of vengeance and how this is mirrored in the authentic portrayal of Ellie and Abby in The Last of Us Part II.
00:00 Opening
00:21 Call to Action
00:45 Typical Revenge Story
01:18 TLOU2's Revenge Realism
01:38 The Science of Revenge
03:05 Atypical Outliers
04:16 A Sobering View
04:42 A Cultural Problem
05:20 Sir Francis Bacon Quote
05:31 Closing
===THUMBNAIL===
The virtual photography featured in the thumbnail of this video is the beautiful work of @sodadevotee, whom I encourage you to follow on Twitter
===Primary Music in this Video===
May She Guide Us by the amazingly talented Created Nor Destroyed
Spotify: open.spotify.com/artist/3VBbD...
Bandcamp: creatednordestroyed.bandcamp....
==Additional Music==
Restless Spirits by Gustavo Santaolalla
Ecstasy by Crooked Still
Left Behind by Gustavo Santaolalla
====More Wolf of Thorns====
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• The Last of Us
*English Captions provided by the one-and-only PatientElijah*
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#TLOU2 #TheLastofUsPartII
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Wolf, one amazing thing I noticed was that the Grounded Trophy, "Dig Two Graves" comes from a very amazing quote. Such a simple sentence embodies the entire game and on its highest difficulty, you understand how high the stakes were for Ellie and Abby.
"Before you embark on a journey of revenge, dig two graves."
Yeah, when you play on grounded, it sure felt like high stakes
I didn't even realize the name of the trophy was part of a revenge quote by Confucious. Thanks for sharing that, Lover.
Really, if Ellie had left it alone, we’d still have Jesse. Tommy would have his movement. He could have his marriage, and keep Jackson safe and growing. Dina would not have left. Ellie’s trauma wouldn’t have been so extreme. A lot of that could have been avoided
It’s funny how the hate that this game received just proves the point that it’s story is trying to make
The irony lol. The people who were pissed off needed the message of the game more than anyone
The game is boring with boring characters!!! They could have structured it in a way where more people, like myself, would be excited to play over and over like I did with the first game.
@@niallhughes2697 I love the game but I have to admit the pacing was pretty wild.
I think it would have set with all players a lot better if they had done it simply from chronological order. They changed the order so you wouldn't know the context of things until later, that way your way of thinking about a situation or character changes due to knowing new information.
But a lot of people don't really like that.
I didn't mind it because I don't exactly like everything being spelled out for me, although I didn't think they were really trying to hide much of anything
Yeah but the people who hate it (which I find to be 99% true for this observation) are really dumb and can't really make a good reason to hate the game. And I think streamers with a big following just wanted to hate the game just to hate it and then their followers join in "well if he hates the game it must be trash!!"
@@kharnsagaraI yet to hear a reason for hating the game other then Abby bad! + Joel die! = dumb people BIG SAD 😔
My theory is that part 2 shows us something about Ellie’s inner self: she enjoys fighting. Being an orphan, she is used to rely on no one but herself. In TLOU we saw she does not hesitate to fight when needed. In TLOU 2 we learn she didn’t like the farming activities in Jackson and preferred becoming a patroller. In the flashback with Seth we see she is one inch from starting a fight with him. After the events of Seattle, it doesn’t take long for her to decide to go after Abby again. This unconscious attraction to violence might be a possible plot for Part 3.
I think it’s more of a subconscious death wish more than anything- like she said to Joel, she felt she should’ve died in that hospital and made her life matter. Since he took that from her, she recklessly gets into fights with those she feels hurt by so that maybe she can eventually die for something
@@mariocop7184 i think it’s prior to Part 2. You see it in American Dreams, TLOU and Left behind. Ellie is constantly picking up fights. She has a personal history that explains it.
Even though I don't necessarily see Ellie's behavior precisely that way, interesting observations nonetheless.
Her going after Abby again had different motivations this time around, however. It was not about revenge but rather a misguided attempt at fixing her trauma, as she was literally dying on the farm from her PTSD. In the end, she managed to achieve what she needed.
I don’t necessarily think it’s Ellie wish to fight, it’s more about doing the right thing in her mind and surviving. As a kid, Ellie wanted to participate and help out to make things better. She got in a lot of trouble because she believed that those QZ were wrong in their way of handling things.
Her immunity emphasized this even more - she felt the responsibility to give herself to save others, especially after Riley’s death. Ellie’s own selfless acts saved Joel two times, she toughen up and learned to fight back.
Joel’s death comes and she’s conflicted. She knows that killing those in her way to Abby doesn’t feel right yet she does it anyway. Part II felt more about Ellie’s humanity being tested and by the end of the game (when she doesn’t kill Abby), we know she passed the test.
I'm legit making my friend watch me play the games so she can watch your videos and understand all the things I've been telling her about for a year
What have you discussed with your friend so far?
Well if she never played it than there is no need for you to show her the video. Unless she stopped playing because she thought the concept was dumb or something, than nevermind
As a result of TLOU 2 story, I learned to almost NEVER seek revenge/vengeance and ALWAYS seek justice/forgiveness. What is lost will never come back regardless. It’s better to let go of pain than hold in for oneself. Otherwise u become what u hate and no better than the offender. The only exception to this rule of nonaggression principle is self defense.
Edit: Even as an antisocial person I understand this and try to live by such. Otherwise I would have been locked up since birth basically. Use your intellect not emotions.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts with us, Wolf.
And above all,
Even if you decide to seek revenge (at some point of time)
Do not kill thousands of unknown, innocent people just because you encountered them enroute to a no man’s land.
I never cared so much for NPCs ever in a game.
All the main characters got what they deserved
But the NPCs fate made it all the more tragic
I don't think I could ever want revenge again after playing TLOU2.
You’d be surprised. The times I’ve taken revenge into my own hands it has disastrous consequences. And truly never made me feel better.
After playing TLOU 2 and analyzing so many people's reaction on its take on revenge, I can never experience revenge stories the same way again.
@@ryanli8371 the count of Monte Cristo is still one of the best revenge stories albeit not as brutal but it still teaches a similar lesson
@@stephenkish2432 I'll be sure to check it out.
Jesus, I've read too many "revenge bad" comments from haters and people who hated the fact that Ellie let Abby go. I can guarantee you that every revenge scene from whichever, you'll find someone saying "if (hero) let (villain) go because revenge bad..." or "I forgive you because revenge bad". You'll find plenty in John Wick from that one scene. Reading those bitter comments makes me lose my brain cells.
At this point, they ought to say they believe in "revenge is good".
@@ryanli8371 I mean were they not paying attention to what they were playing. Ellie letting her go was about forgivingness. And from my own awful experience - revenge is awful, emotionally totalizing and never helps. Plus it destroyed both of them in the end.
Amazing video as always. The game definitely deals with how revenge is not just wrong on a philosophical level but also how it literally destroys your mind and well-being. I remember an interview where Neil Druckmann compared Ellie's desire for revenge with drug-addiction. You can specially see that in the last act of the game where she clearly doesn't even have any conviction but keeps going because "she has to finish it". Of course, it's only when (spoilers) she lets Abby live that she's able to break free and start a healthy grieving process.
Ps. If anyone is interested in other stories that explore revenge through a complex lense I would recommend movies like Blue Ruin, Three Billboarda Outside Ebbing, Missouri or Only God Forgives.
I think another movie that you can add to the list is Promising Young Woman. Its not like TLOU 2, but it deals with revenge in similar manner.
Glad you enjoyed the video, Carlos! Some great recommendations, btw.
People say that Ellie not killing Abby would waste all of her efforts leading up to the moment. That's the point. It was all wasteful, to begin with. Abby's an example of this.
Absolutely.
@@WolfofThorns Do you think TLOU3 will be able to smoothly transition off of Abby as a playable character without it having a jarring effect on the story?
Neil Druckmann and Halley Gross went to great pains in crafting together their binary portrait on 2 rivaling personalities who happened to reside on the same coin.
But TLOU series is Ellie's story, and if this is to be a 3 act piece, the convential assumption is that most of the story will be focused on her final lap of the journey.
And at the same time, TLOU2 leaves behind some intriguing plot developments for Abby if ND decides to go down that path.
@@jstephenj Well, I go into the story I would pitch for Part 3 here ruclips.net/video/NwC4RySc-mI/видео.html and my pitch includes Abby as a playable character. In my view, the conclusion of Ellie's story benefits greatly from Abby's inclusion as a playable perspective and helps us transcend where and how her story must conclude, as she reclaims her agency. But, either way, I'm sure that whatever Neil has cooked up to conclude Ellie's story will be one hell of a ride for us all.
@@WolfofThorns What are your thoughts on Bungie's handling of Arbiter in Halo 3 and Kojima's handling or Raiden In Metal Gear Solid 4? Those characters were brought into their respective roles under similar circumstances.
They came in with huge fanfare only to fizzle out in the third act because their creators decide they need to return back to familiar form because they have a story to wrap up.
@@jstephenj I am not super familiar with Halo or Metal Gear and what I played of them didn't remind of The Last of Us at all.
Well said! Ive always found it ironic that those who struggled on forgiving the game, reflect the core message from it.
I agree, Andrea. It's very interesting what great art tells us about our own nature.
You have encapsulated the complexities of revenge in fiction (and their flaws) far better than anyone else I have heard attempting such.
Thank you, my fellow canid. It's a lot of fun to articulate ideas like this via video and great that folks like you really appreciate it, Coyote.
This game is ahead of it’s time.Naughty Dog was really brave for goin this direction.no one was ready for a game to have such a serious psychological story.it sure changed the storytelling of gaming for ever. im sure it’d be more appreciated in the future.
That's what I hate most. Either people will eventually come around to the game (which inevitably some will) or people just hate the game for a dumb reason. Like Joel dying ... THATS PART OF THE STORY YOU CRY BABY. Like hating Halo reach (I think it is) because everyone dies at the end
@@kharnsagara wrong, Joel died or how he died ?? That's different. But again, this video has nothing to do with the structure of the game. So whether or not the game is good, this video would still be made.
@@TheMinhthe wtf... YOU'RE WRONG. I said "Joel dying" meaning Joel died so idk what the fuck you're talking about, and I never said anything about the video. This is a reply to this guy's comment saying people will come around to like the video GAME, not "this video is for_____"
@@kharnsagara jesus, what i meant was that Joel's death was done really horribly. Cus people that hate the game was pretty ok with the fact he was killed off, they just werent ok with how the developers made it that way. You said " joel dying" could lead it to a wrong direction, cus if you put it that way, people would misunderstand the people who hate the game. What i said later waS just salt added to the soup, i said that cus i could, that's all, it wasnt directly to you.
@@TheMinhthe I'd like for you to find any video explaining why TLOU2 sucks and why people hate it (there's a lot just pick one). Yes they hate how he died but let me give you a little insight on my conversations to reasoning the people hate the game.
Here's a few reasons;
-Graphics suck
-Its a walking simulator (which I can understand but just because you walk a lot shouldn't mean the game sucks)
-Lev is trans (or identifies as a boy)
-Ellie doesn't kill Abby
-Joel died
-Abbys dad had a god complex
-Abbys dad was black in pt1 but white in pt2 (which idk how they came up with that.
-Ellies a lesbian (which again is dumb because if they played pt1 they would've know she was lesbian if not bi)
I'm 100% if you try to reason with majority of people who say the game sucks and they hate it, they will give you way more dumb reasons why they think it sucks
The Last Of Us Part II was loved, appreciated and seen as a unique masterpiece by so many people...
The Last Of Us Part II won the game of the year at the PlayStation Awards, with maybe 3 million more “user votes”!
The Last Of Us Part II received 196 official critic awards, 65 official user vote awards, and a total of 261 official awards at the award ceremonies!
It was the piece that won the most game of the year awards in history. So The Last Of Us Part II is GOAT!!
Also, The Last Of Us Part II has extremely excellent and unique gameplay...
The Last Of Us Part II is the best masterpiece in animation, level design, artificial intelligence design, melee, firearm use, particle designs, atmosphere design and game development...
The Last Of Us Part II’s AI really does feel like a human, and it randomly and “naturally” wanders and explores every area it is in. They inspect everywhere: all the voids that can be penetrated, nooks and crannies, underwater, grass, inside the buildings, the whole environment... Their reactions differ according to the interactions in the environment, and the communication and interaction of the enemies with each other is also great!
Npc dialogues = When an npc human or an npc dog dies, other npc people lament for dead npc human or dead npc dog, shout with anger, go crazy, swear to take revenge on the person who killed their loved one and are filled with negative emotions. That's why npc people act like real people and make them feel like real people...
Looking at the post-apocalyptic dystopia design and the notes in this world, it is clear that there is always someone taking revenge on someone, always full of negative emotions... This is a personal, deep, psychological and special journey...
The Last Of Us Part II turns its own post-apocalyptic universe into a powerful dystopia. It doesn't just tell a story. It processes the people in a mind-blowing way and places them in a dystopian universe with an enormous fiction. It connects the characters in it to the dystopian universe that it has created in relation to each other with thematic and emotional bonds. It explains in a magnificent way why this universe exists, the people in it, what is going on in this universe. Especially The Last Of Us Part II does this very well... And there is no other work in the industry that can do this with narrative techniques. The Last Of Us Part II is a work that has perspectives on the philosophy of utilitarianism, secular humanism, the meta-ethical branch of ethical philosophy, political philosophy at certain points (describing state destruction and criticizing the essence of the state, paralleling some of the thoughts of Thomas Hobbes) and moral relativism.
The Last Of Us Part II deals with Thomas Hobbes' understanding of "homo homoni lupus" or "man is a wolf to man" very well... It also has a structure that tells the story of statism and the state order.
Because the state is the only official authority that provides real justice. The state is a structure that puts people in order, rises above moral relativism and establishes a fundamental system of criticism and judgment in a smart and correct manner, which no one can object to. As in the novel 1984, the state can use this power for manipulation...
And if the state collapses, the only law is the laws of nature, the strong one (he/she) provides his/her own subjective justice and the ethics of this is debatable, because since man is a thinking being, the strong one (he/she) will use tolerance and weakness to provide his/her own ideology and his/her own justice. Philosopher Karl Popper also says this.
Here people live with the survival instinct inherited from our ancestors in the destroyed order because the laws of nature are cruel and this survival instinct is really at its peak. Under normal circumstances (today's order), a good, angelic person can be an angel with bloody hands and a broken wing in this universe (the post-apocalyptic dystopia of The Last Of Us)... This universe shows how different people can be in different orders, people can practice behaviors that seem distant from them but can be close at the same time... So people are neither black nor white, they are gray, they are angels with bloody hands... This is a tremendous dystopian post-apocalyptic universe. It is the design and expression of the apocalyptic universe... A different dystopian narrative, presenting different and original perspectives, presenting good and evil and all opposite concepts in gray without distinction makes The Last Of Us Part II a great "masterpiece" on the subject of "narrative". ...
You definitely should read Paul Bloom's book Against Empathy!
Empathy is a relative concept, and if someone doesn't understand the philosophy of empathy, that person shouldn't talk about it.
The Last Of Us Part II is easy on empathy, so The Last Of Us Part II doesn't force empathy. This is already impossible...
Empathy is unique to the person.
The Last Of Us Part II deals with the concept of empathy very well...
And The Last Of Us Part II cares about the main characters and the side characters around the main characters and handles them really well...
So The Last Of Us Part II has extremely well-written characters. Other side characters serve meaningful and deep points in the story. You feel like they all have a purpose in the "narrative" of The Last Of Us Part II...
The Last Of Us Part II characters render very well in gray tones and embed the concept of moral relativism very well into the characters...
Every character (especially the main characters) is like a real person.
The feelings and thoughts of the characters are presented in a realistic way and the character is definitely catchy and impressive, as each one feels like they are real-world people.
Abby has been tortured by rattlers and has lost her majesty and become pathetic. Abby barely has the strength to stay afloat. Ellie unravels it, but they are stunned because now Abby has been tortured worse than death. Then blood gets involved, Ellie's own blood from PTSD reminds her of "Joel's death" and then she can't let Abby go and they fight. Later, the breaking of Ellie's fingers symbolizes guitar, the blood spilling into the water symbolizes Joel, life and human and Ellie's torture by strangling the defenseless and exhausted Abby symbolizes Joel's death. And an epiphany (Go to search) ensues. Later, she remembers a very meaningful "memory" she had with Joel, and this memory begins with Joel playing the guitar. This memory is the “moment” when she decides to forgive Joel, and this moment is the memory of the conscientious relief that comes from forgiving despite everything that has happened, the effort to start a new life with a clean slate despite everything that happens. In this way, she chooses to get rid of his feelings by "hesitating".
Ellie wasn't there for revenge anyway, she was actually there to bring herself closer to Joel. Ellie went to find Abby to make up for her inability to save Joel. She had long since given up on revenge, she. Months had passed and Ellie had completely changed... As she said in the farm scenes... Ellie had not fully forgiven Joel. That's why Ellie was so angry with Abby. Ellie was angry with Abby for taking away her chance to forgive Joel. Ellie was so angry at Abby for killing Joel while they were on a bad break. And Ellie went to find Abby to fully forgive Joel. Ellie was there to make up for her inability to save Joel. In fact, Ellie was mostly angry with herself because she thought she had betrayed Joel. Ellie fought with Abby because she was so angry with herself and therefore to suppress the feeling of regret on herself, and for the reasons I explained in the finale, she realized that forgiveness is actually the medicine for revenge and anger...
The relationship between Abby and Lev is very deep... Abby would not have been with Owen without Yara and Lev. Although Abby has fulfilled her desire for revenge, she still carries a guilt that makes her feel heavy, unhappy and depressed. Abby sees Yara's arm being smashed by the Seraphites, coldly and unhesitatingly, being struck again and again with the hammer. Later, he is saved from drowning by hanging, thanks to the direction of Yara and Lev's cutting the rope at the last moment. If Abby hadn't met Lev and Yara at that moment, she would have been dead, hanged and pierced. Lev and Yara are still children. And Yara needs protection and treatment. Abby helped Yara move forward, carrying Yara in her arms. Abby carried Yara in her arms for a long time. Because Abby wanted to help those two kids. When Abby left them and went to Owen, she looked from Owen's point of view, so she realized that things fought for were not always what they seemed. Even after Abby had been with Owen (because sex is a real heartfelt emotion and it does dominate), she was still overwhelmed by the pangs of conscience. And Abby saw the two kids she wanted to help and later abandoned, died by hanging in her nightmare. And Abby was holding her neck when she woke up in a sweat. Because Abby had never been hanged before, and if it weren't for Yara and Lev, Abby would've been standing outside forever hanging and disemboweled, not next to Owen. And Abby still owed those two kids the favor. And Abby listened to the voice of her conscience... Because Abby had caused such devastating events that she was trying to prove to herself that she had a good feeling somewhere inside and that she was a good person. That's why Abby couldn't forget Yara and Lev as she tried to prove she was a good person, choosing to listen to her conscience and thus truly help them.
And it was indeed a great finale. There is also a biblical reference. In the Bible, water symbolizes new life, rebirth, and purification from sins.
The Last Of Us Part II is truly an "emotional roller coaster" masterpiece...
Another reason why I think this game is an absolute masterpiece. Well explained and another amazing video!
Thank you, Ruben!
One thing I'm impressed by how this game delivers everything, is that when Ellie agreed to go back home then forget her revenge quest, i unconsciously agree with her. I didn't want her to continue, and i think that's cool - considering in most revenge stories we usually crave for the satisfaction for our hero finally gets their revenge. But this one makes me feel sober enough to see beyond the burning hatred, the oncoming consequences, that i think it's better for Ellie to leave it all and go back..
That is, until Abby arrives at the theater...it all goes boom. What a great story.
Yet again, I would swear that you hacked into my computer, read my disorganized ramblings about TLOU2, made sense out of them, and then produced a superb and beautifully articulated video! I appreciate the research and thoughtfulness that you put into these videos tremendously!
Haha, you know me, Lanie, using my psychic and hacking powers yet again! But so glad you enjoyed the video. TLOU2 is the gift that keeps on giving.
Excellent video once again, Wolf. I can tell there was a lot of research that went into this one and it definitely payed off!
Thank you, Gustavo!
Wolf, I'm glad I'm not the only one who recognized the problem of how the entertainment media romanticized revenge stories and how it affected so many people's perceptions.
TLOU 2 also made me see revenge stories differently. This is something I repeatedly emphasized because it was such a hot topic in TLOU 2, but TLOU 2 does NOT have the traditional revenge story. I have said this a thousand times already, but so many people are too used to watching glorified/romanticized revenge stories in movies, games, and TV shows. By that, I mean the act of revenge is always portrayed as heroic, justifiable, and glamorous. Justifiable means is when the villains are actually genuinely evil and share the “they deserve to die” mentality. Movies like Conan the Barbarian, License to Kill (007), Gladiator (with Russel Crowe), Kill Bill (1-2), Inglorious Basterds, True Grit, Django Unchained, John Wick, The Equalizer 2, The Expendables 2, Death Wish, Rambo: Last Blood, No Remorse, and Wrath of Man are all glorified revenge stories. Examples for games include God of War (1-3), GTA 4, Dishonored, Watch Dogs, Prototype 2, Mafia 3, Red Dead Redemption 2, and Ghost of Tsushima. A lot of these examples share the villain deserve to die mentality and the revenge/violence committed by these protagonists/heroes (anti heroes) are glorified and that a lot of them don’t suffer repercussions of their actions. We enjoy these kinds of stories is because they are EMOTIONALLY APPEALING and CATHARTIC. One of the reasons for the hate towards TLOU 2 is because the apparent “revenge bad” line ingrained inside the hater’s minds. No, they’re really pissed about the fact that Abby lives in the end and to them, Joel’s death did not go unpunished. But even if you saw the whole theme of the game this way, its not so wrong if you think about it. I say this again for the thousandth time, real life revenge is NOT glorified, especially if its on a personal level. It is not a hero’s journey, the violence you can potentially enact are not glorified. More likely, it is a journey of damnation. More specifically, it is when you embark on a journey to kill the person for taking away your loved ones (or a cause that share the same severity). This journey, it can consume you. It can alienate those close to you. It slowly changes you, and you can come out a changed person. Just like what happened to Ellie and Abby. Most importantly, you can lose everything you have in pursuit of revenge, there can be a form of repercussion and you not finding any emotional relief after enacting your vengeance. I have nothing against glorified revenge stories, but the problem is that these kinds of stories blinds us from the true reality of revenge when it comes to this kind of level. We have come to expect the same kinds of scenarios, feelings and criteria to be played out in other revenge stories and even in real life. TLOU 2 showed us that grim reality. So ask yourself, “Is real life revenge glorified like movies? Will I truly feel better after enacting my vengeance against the person who wronged me? Can I truly walk away without facing repercussions? If you say yes to all three, then ask yourself “Do I want to find out? Can I afford to find out?”. My answer, I pray that we never find out. I pray we never find ourselves in Ellie or Abby’s shoes. Make no mistake, the feeling of vengeance is a very human feeling, but its not a kind of feeling that we ideally want to experience (specifically on the level TLOU 2 has shown). Now that whenever I watch a glorified revenge story, I can’t watch without comparing it to TLOU 2.
@Anna from Nowhere Great comment from your part as well! You are very right about what glorified revenge stories provides us. They are power fantasies that provides escapism through entertainment mediums. You provided another key factor on why people enjoy these kinds of typical revenge stories. Make no mistakes though, I enjoy a good old fashioned revenge stories ( I used to anyway), especially John Wick and that one is my favorite. The issue of glorified revenge stories can categorized as one of the recurring themes that are being romanticized in entertainment medias. They typically want to make a certain aspect in life look good such as romantic relationships, mental illnesses, etc. Its like these romanticization is telling us these said things:
- Its cool to kill the person who took away your loved ones
- Its cool and stylish to go one man army against the wrong doer's goons (assuming if they do have an army)
- Its cool to kill the wrongedoer in a stylish manner.
- You will find peace by killing the person who took away your loved ones.
- Be like John Wick, be like (hero/protagonist in those glorified revenge stories)
These are some of the typical formulas of most revenge stories nowadays. I'm very positive that there are some people who believe that real life revenge is going to play out like those glorified revenge stories. These people are in for a rude awakening (wouldn't say TLOU 2 already provided that rude awakening because they reject how it portrayed its revenge story). But I pray that me, you, and countless other people on the internet never find out or find themselves in either Ellie's or Abby's shoes.
So you are also very right that Abby is not an irredeemable villain, unlike Micah (RDR 2), Dimitri (GTA 4), and Lucky Quinn (WD1). Its not a fair comparison to compare her with those typical evil villains. But should she be deemed as a villain though? If you know the saying, "Every villain is the hero of their own story". That is very much the case for Abby's side of story.
As for your alternate TLOU 2 story, yes it would have been better received if Naughty Dog decided to opt for that route. I'm pretty sure that I would enjoyed it as well if we did not get what we got for the story. If they did that, nothing really changes for us as audience/gamers. We don't really get anything out of it, other than more power fantasies and escapism. Its just another generic revenge story that was added to the pile of the same stories with the same formulas.
@Anna from Nowhere To be honest, I have mixed feelings with part 2. I would’ve preferred that they chose a likewise ambitious story that focused on just Ellie. They did not have to chose this type of story or narrative. There definitely was a lot of framing elements in the story with the juxtaposed arcs that made it feel disingenuous towards Ellie, and I do feel like there was quite a bit of things done at the expense of Ellie to make the empathy experiment work. Whether directly or indirectly. So, while I do feel like I have a good grasp of the narrative, I can’t say I’m all too happy with it - there could’ve been many stories that included Joel’s early death, Ellie’s descent, but did not require this split narrative.
@Anna from Nowhere I agree with your points. I saw Abby, to put it in very simple words, a nuanced plot device for Ellie’s story. She was there to break Ellie down and to develop Ellie further. Abby’s arc was meant to show perspective - that was the central theme I believe for her, both as a character and us as players.
Part 2 I saw as the mid-way of Ellie’s path, where she brought down to her lowest, yet she was able to hold on to her humanity. I feel a lot of players misinterpret the “no good or bad” incorrectly, in that “who you thought was good was bad (Ellie) and who you thought was bad was really good (Abby)”, which of course ironically is seeing it good or bad, just flipped. I think Ellie despite being at her very lowest showed her humanity, and that she still was a good person. Neil said a McKee quote about Ellie in that “the more pressure you apply to a character, the harder a choice they have to make, the more they reveal about their true character” and Ellie was brought to her very lowest and did something very few could do.
Personally, Abby didn’t work for me. I understood her, but her character did not work and traits didn’t work, her actively going against the protagonist (Ellie), and of course the trauma she caused her”. By the end, I didn’t want her to get killed by Ellie because of the harm it would’ve done her.
I agree that Ellie is TLOU. She is and always has been the center of it all. Even in Part 1.
I can’t imagine Abby and Ellie working together. That would be near insulting to trauma victims, because by all means Abby, and sorry for the harsh words, practically mentally raped her. People assuming this likely think Ellie forgave Abby by letting her go, but that wasn’t the case. It is near certainly it won’t happen, and also is the “Ellie will go to the Fireflies to sacrifice herself like he always wanted”, which also is obviously false.
I can absolutely agree with you about Ellie in Part 2. I found her as a great character in Part 1, but Part 2 made her become my favorite character in any media. It was mainly due to how strong she was. I really sympathized with her and her trauma, felt absolutely heartbroken. But she never gave up.
You make an excellent point about Santa Barbara that people tend to overlook. She not only liberated a camp of slavers, but also saved Abby and Lev from certain death, allowing them to reach their Avalon. It was quite intentional that after all the brutality of Part 2, the game’s last act has her going against such a faction, and freeing slaves, and saving Abby and Lev. It might be a glimpse of things to come in the future. I don’t think Ellie needs redemption in Part 3 as she never lost her humanity. I think it will be not of redemption but of recovery.
@Anna from Nowhere Absolutely - it is a surface-level reading. But it’s so constant that it becomes annoying. The real “worst act” we see Abby do is torture and murder Joel. Her motives for wanting to kill Joel were not only understandable, but contrasted by Ellie doing a similar thing. Abby’s “dark past” is there - it’s told through subtext and exposition, but these are overlooked and overheard. Although I still do feel as if some things were in fact purposefully framed to have this sort of effect.
The comment about Ellie’s coming-of-age take may have even been from me! This game definitely felt like Ellie’s emancipation story. It was her finally taking her life on her own hands and this is where Part 3 will take us.
I think that’s an excellent point you make about the epilogue - Ellie did not sit there and wallow. After the flashback, she immediately gets up, carefully positions the guitar at the windowsill, and heads out determined with the guitar looking over her. I think the song names are also important cues: the title playing is Beyond Desolation, as in Ellie is *beyond desolation*.
The song that place while Ellie is drowning Abby is Unbound. That’s also how I saw her fingers being cut - symbolic for chains.
Another awesome video brotha, you hit on something about why I love this game so much, revenge was handled in a realistic way, in most stories like this you get revenge & feel vindicated as the story ends but in TLOU2 it goes deeper into the mind of vengeance, in the end even if you get revenge it’s not gonna fill you with anything in the long term other then emptiness & that feeling of “now what” when you live for revenge when it’s over all you have left is “now what”
Glad you enjoyed the video, Marine 316! And agreed, TLOU2's presentation of everything as seen and experienced through their characters carries a lot of authenticity that we just don't see, or should I say, don't "feel" in a lot of other games.
@@WolfofThorns I agree 💯
The best revenge stories are the ones that tells you that revenge is bad. Even with a film like Kill Bill, there was no satisfaction or a feeling of reward when Beatric killed Bill, there was only sadness & regret, not by what she did but by what led to that moment.
A great observation, JPR. I really love Kill Bill because it is so immersed in its own detached high reality. It's easy to indulge in it and not take it too seriously because it's so far removed from reality, but I definitely see what you mean about the ending.
I disagree actually, I think Kill Bill is emblematic of the romanticized revenge trope. Even though it is a bittersweet victory, it is a victory nonetheless that feels warranted. Beatrice definitely won in a battle with a man who abused and attempted to kill her. In TLOU2, there is no overcoming loss through revenge, no satisfaction in bringing down an unhinged killer.
@@hellofriend545 The thing about Kill Bill is that it is ultimately more about its own exploitation grindhouse genre than it really is about revenge, meaning that the revenge angle is less about the film's purpose and meaning than it is about its style and presentation. Kill Bill wasn't made because Quentin had some passionate revenge story he wanted to tell. It was made more as a vehicle to express its style and substance of a bygone genre: exploitation films, and it inhabits its detached from reality substance well.
As usual you melt me with your voice 😍. Back on topic, when she chooses revenge over her life my heart was weak, and the final fight I was like “please just move past this”, I needed therapy after haha. Yes such destruction, if they had just talked ! Oh well , thanks for the video!
Aw, shucks! Glad you enjoyed the video, LTG!
This game is a flawless masterpiece, be it technically, as in terms of game design, but also be it in the writing. To be able to handle such an emotion as intense as revenge and to have the courage to actually show the REAL results of it, instead of just having a happy ending, is a huge kudos to Naughty Dog... Those guys did a perfect job. I still get my eyes all watery when I look at Ellie suffering
Revenge is like a two headed rat viper, while you watch your enemies go down you are being poisoned yourself.
-Aang, the last airbender
So cool to see scenes from The Crow. One of my favorite movies and inspired me to start playing guitar. Even though I do love a good revenge story, some great points in here. Great video as always!
Thanks, Jesse! Cool to know The Crow was an inspiration for you to start the guitar. I love The Crow. It was fun to be able to include samples of it in this video. Fun Fact: The Cure's song Burn was one of the first pieces of media I ever edited as a teenager, sampling bits of dialog from the movie, along with crow sound effects, into the song.
@@WolfofThorns No way! That’s so awesome. My favorite Cure song. Another fun fact: Today is October 30th, aka Devil’s Night, the night the movie takes place. So I watch it every year on this date. Your timing is perfect!
@@jesseworsty That is out of hand--sometimes eerie the way the universe works in the Wilderness of the Mental we inhabit
Amazing video, Wolf. This is perhaps my favorite video of yours so far. Keep it up!
Thanks, Elijah, and wow, cool to know this one is your favorite. 🤠
I really like the game
I love your videos! I even printed this research paper for further reading on this topic.
I'm glad you enjoyed the video, Stephen. Isn't the research just fascinating?
@@WolfofThorns it truly is!
I once heard, when you finish the game and still wanted to kill Abby, you may have won the battle but lost the war for your soul. I'm still hoping she and Ellie can find common ground in a sequel.
Or Abby was just a badly written character who didn’t earn empathy to anyone able to see through the most transparent manipulative methods of storytelling 😂
Thank you, Wolf, for the new great video. Your view at TLOU2 is always interesting and it make me thing more about something I haven’t seen before
Glad you enjoyed the video, Irina!
“The wounds of conscience always leave a scar.”
P. Syrus
So how much of a conscientious act is it to go forward? Choosing to rest your conscience will only bring more unrest and destruction. It is more correct and more beneficial to try to forget and try to prevent the loss of conscience-blood rather than revenge...
Unscrupulousness is one of the important factors that increase grudge and hatred. Injustice and unscrupulousness have a great role in the separation, polarization and deterioration of the ties of society.
I continue with Victor Hugo.
Being good is easy, what is difficult is being just. The most perfect just is conscience..
whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster, if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.
This quote by Friedrich Nietzsche is a reminder to measure yourself and be aware of your own thoughts.
In other words, you should always criticize yourself when you enter into a "questioning war" because your life and your own feelings always have plans for you. And the "narrative" of "The Last Of Us Part II" handles this with great mastery.
In addition, The Last Of Us Part II's script is deep, philosophical, dark, emotional and thought-provoking.
A masterpiece that has taken the industry so far and set a new bar.
Again, I will continue with a quote from Friedrich Nietzsche:
“When we are questioned on an unprepared subject, the first thought that comes to our mind is often not our own thought. But it is just a commonplace thought that belongs to our class, position, and ancestry. Self-thoughts rarely surface.”
Time, patience and thinking skills are required for high-level, powerful and philosophical “things” that are actually difficult to understand, difficult to notice. In order to find the real and the essence...
The Last Of Us Part II meaning of life, moral relativism, philosophy of empathy, self-criticism, definition of the concept of human, narrative art, creating a post-apocalyptic universe (dystopia) and blending its philosophy with the people it creates in the post-apocalyptic universe, the meaning of respect, thinking A masterpiece on meaning and emotion transfer. The Last Of Us Part II is the ultimate masterpiece of the eighth generation. And these concepts require “extremely hard thinking”.
Let me end with a final Nietzsche quote:
“The life of the enemy. Whoever lives for the sake of combating an enemy has an interest in the enemy's staying alive.”
Because maybe that person or that thing is not an enemy. It is only the key that will unlock your own conscience and your own feelings...
We cannot talk about good and evil directly, they are related and relative concepts.
Formulating that existing evil was or was not done by a God does not prevent evil from existing. Evil can be tolerated, guided by the will to live. This endurance will be through art, morality and love. Albert Camus attributes his rejection of God to the existence of evil and its abundant and violent experience by humans. According to him, the question we should ask is: Is there evil in this world? Evil, if any, is incompatible with the idea of God. In a divine order, in a world created and ruled by God, the existence of evil is inconceivable. For example, death is an evil and evil inflicts punishment on us. However, “the one who is right is the one who never kills”. This means that he cannot be God. “Either we are not free, and the almighty God is responsible for evil; or we are free and responsible but God is not omnipotent.
According to philosophers, evil harms the bond between people and the state of being human. In my opinion, kindness builds bridges between people, develops bonds and contributes to being human. Kindness is a joy that includes honor, not arrogance. So the fools and the dead are people who do not feel their conscience, do not understand themselves and become numb with this meaninglessness, this is not true peace,
Good people are actually people who have attained peace of mind and prosperity. Their difficult but constructive and strong-willed behaviors show that they trust their own worth and justice. Because the "thing" that is better than being good is conscientious justice, and this is what real goodness and real good person are.
That’s why The Last Of Us Part II is the most unique and emotional roller coaster masterpiece...
Thank you for video...
Lots of great stuff here, Ellie Joel. Thanks for sharing your thoughts!
fantastic materials, thank you!
Love your channel as always
You are the sweetest timmi, Grimmi.
You Are right Buddy ! This is so True and put it in such a great way ... Can't believe u don't have 15 million subscribers .. u deserve it
Very sweet of you to say so
Thank you .. you made my heart and mind alive by talking about TLOU ……
Color me flattered, fair traveler.
The complaint I hear most is how people hated playing as the "bad guys", and my response to that is always this:
In actuality, there is no end all, be all "bad guy". It depends on which perspective you're looking from. Most people view Abby and her friends as the bad guys. I could say the same for Joel, and by proxy, Ellie and her friends. This is a major problem with today's society as a whole. There is no one side that is entirely, or even mostly right in almost any situation.
Think back to TLOU Part 1. The first villain we see, other than the cordyceps, was that poor soldier, probably just some private who is low on the pecking order, who was told to light up civilians during an unthinkable crisis. That poor guy had 1 second to think through a decision that would impact the remaining 10 seconds of his life. I don't like the decision he made, but I can't really fault him because I've been in life-or-death situations, and they are far from easy to navigate. You make a choice based on instinct and lowest training and hope you're right.
So "villain" #1 was soldier boy, next up are all the bandits (or simply other survivors). Most of them are just trying to survive. Sure, some of them are seriously terrible people, but most are just following those terrible people because the terrible people are the ones that are surviving. If you think about it, morals are a handicap in survival. They only hurt you. I don't think most of the fodder in the game are bad, just that they're trying to survive and have unfortunately run into the world's angriest boomer and his stabby pseudo-daughter.
On to "villain" #3, Joel. He kills COUNTLESS people, arguably good and bad, to smuggle a girl to a group that thinks they can synthesize a cure from Ellie. Joel then kills even more people from that group to "rescue" Ellie from them because he has a past trauma that he has not come to terms with. He kills out of selfishness. (Joel is my favorite character, and I'm still saying this.)
"Villain" #4 are probably the cultists, but I don't understand them very well, so I'm not going to speak on something that I can't be objective to. I think they're fucking weird, but that doesn't default them to being evil.
Finally, "villain" #5 is Abby's group because they upset us, the players, by killing Joel and Jesse... But why is it only okay for Joel and Ellie's group to kill? This brings my point full circle. It depends on your perspective. Ellie only lost Joel, and Jesse to the WLF in the two games. Abby lost her dad, Owen, Mel, Nora, Manny, Jordan, Nick, PSP girl (idk her name), and Alice because of Ellie's group. That's a significant difference in loss if we're going by the harsh standard of "an eye for an eye". This game is a masterpiece at showing how people (us) favor the side which we FIRST form an attachment to, rather than another side with similar circumstance. We'd rather say "well, yeah, but fuck them!" than say "wow, my side is kinda fucked up..."
thank you, find it very usefull for the beginning of my study. Bless you!
I really enjoy your videos Mr.Wolf.
I appreciate that, Hanzo Reiza. So glad you're enjoying the content!
Thanks for the vid. It also made me remember this movie, "irreversible".
Glad you enjoyed the video, fer moreno. And, yeah, Irreversible's a tough one.
TLOU II was a game that is not meant for everyone. For me, it transcended more into a slice of life than an actual game.
Aaaaand I think I just found my new favourite channel
Aw, thank you for sharing that, Jimmy!
revenge is like a fire it grows until it dies out
revenge only feeds the pain inside, it leaves a trail of hate wherever it goes, and generates an endless cycle of suffering. The only way to overcome tragedy is understanding, first, no matter what we do, it won’t come back. Second is forgiveness.
PT 3 needs to give Ellie and UNFORGIVEN movie style arc...
PT 2 basically showed Ellie un the end as a retired gun slinger, who's beginning to heal & it's very much done with violence for the time being,
Perhaps certain circunstances regarding Abby & the Fireflies will lure her back into the fold one last time...
while I haven't played the game. there seems to be a shock factor with the second part. you go from Joel being the main character to being killed in the first few minutes. some of the outrage was probably from the whiplash of such a drastic change in what their focus was. plus, it's a videogame that we thought was focused on surviving. next thing you know where losing one of our favorite characters and then going down this other story line that we don't really care about.
but yeah. abby taking her friends on a wild goose chase to kill one man was very selfish. but ultimately if someone killed my father I'd go after them to. you can try and make a point about the idea of 'justice' a life for a life when it's murder. no one minds when Joffrey from GOT gets poisoned. but in abby's case her father was indeed murdered by Joel to save Ellie. who unknowingly, (from what I can remember.) was going to give her life to help make a cure.
You might say that the people willing to trick and then murder a child should be punished and that Joel's actions are justified to defend her. we are also invested in this fight as we've literally spent hours of our life fighting to keep everyone alive.
But the point still stands. Revenge will not heal your wounds. there may be justice in some deaths, (if only to stop them from killing other people.) but not healing. that can only be done through growth in your own life.
No healing can be done through destruction.
(well that was a lot of words. time to go and watch a video about a guy using pressure washers to fly. have a good day everyone!)
Well, it’s definitely not the only piece of modern media that shows revenge and vengeance as a fool’s errand. No Country For Old Men is a good one. It is rare, as you say. So you’re right. Good review on these aspects.
Oh, my examples are hardly the only ones. But most revenge stories are overindulgent maladaptive fantasies, which makes the few that aren't breathes of fresh air. That being said, I wouldn't personally consider No Country For Old Men to be about revenge, but that's just me.
The past is beyond our control we must accept it in order to keep living but there is freedom in accepting this knowledge … it’s something similar that i heard in until dawn
Absolute truth right there
Another franchise that explains the "cycle of violence", is Red Dead Redemption.
Great video! I have never played the last of us 2 but this overall felt like a good insight to what it's like to carry a desire of revenge. I'll subscribe and help you build something not great, but amazing! You have potential to fill, so just keep up the work my guy! I believe in you.
Thank you so much for the support, Krutten. Man, I'm curious to know what you think after you play TLOU2. It's one hell of an experience.
@@WolfofThorns Hope I get to play it someday! I unfortenately don't own a playstation at the moment, but maybe i'll get an edition of the fifth console one day. Better yet, maybe it'll release on pc sometime in the future! Holding my fingers crossed for the last one 🤞
@@kruttenbastian5452 I totally feel you. Way back in 2013 when TLOU1 came out, I preordered the game and borrowed a friend's PS3 to play it. Here's to hoping you are able to experience these stories for yourself sooner rather than later.
@@WolfofThorns Thanks! I appreciate your time Wolf of Thorns. I'll definently stay on the lookout for new videos! You know, you seem like a really good guy! Based on the few messages you've sent and your enthusiasm towards this game franchise, it all points to you being a person deserving so much. So therefore I tell you, don't ever give up on yourself no matter how hard life might get! I know you might think that this is a little random right now, but all im really trying to get across is that you have to look out for yourself, and I wish you the best of luck in that regard 💪 Take breaks if you need them, that's important. I already look at you as some sort of friend so I'll be here if you ever need me
@@kruttenbastian5452 You are the sweetest, KB! Thank you for the support and the positive vibes!
Some people don’t realize Ellie literally killed everyone Abby ever loved and the boss fight at the end Ellie basically tortured her. I think what Ellie did to Abby was worth than death she has to mourn so many people. Especially with the memories Abby is gonna have of the place she was kept captive. Overall I found the ending very well written. People that hate on the game didn’t give it a real chance. I hated it and skipped all the cutscenes cuz of the Internet hate and Joel’s death Abby not dying all that shit, but then going through it watching all the cutscenes…. I’m blown away by this shit. True masterpiece
And the only thing most people see in TLOU Part 2 is Abby killing Joel with a golf club, like that's the most unrealistic thing they have ever seen...I can't fight at all and could kill someone with a golf club.
I have a saying about vengeance i know it in Spanish but I will say it in English and it says this, “vengeance is never good it kills the soul and it poison’s it “
Thanks for sharing this with us!
The quote is from El Chavo del 8, right? I love it
Imagine handling a cycle of revenge in the middle of an apocalypse with different stages.
Yet another bang up video, Wolf! I always enjoy your observations!
Thank you, WDTTW!
The only revenge that wouldn't necessarily do this would be something like the story of Cobb Avery in the song "The World Ender" by Lord Huron
If someone took away my little girl and wife, my very life even, I'd have negative regret
While that is interesting, what the research suggests is that the act of revenge would damage you further, intensify your grief in losing your loved ones, shining the light on a false catharsis in the idea of retaliation. There are healthy ways to approach the grieving process with revenge being poison rather than medicine, despite the lies of so many tales. At least, this is what is suggested by decades of research.
@@WolfofThorns I get that, but in the context of the story, my wife and daughter are killed due to corporate greed and negligence from one guy, letting that one guy "get away with it" would make me feel way worse than destroying his corporate empire and killing him
I think people conflate not acting out revenge with forgiveness.
Just because you don't take revenge on someone doesn't mean you forgive what they've done.
I think I'm pathetically vengeful person. If I can't have my revenge, that person would stuck in my thought permanently. If I do, I would be happy and move on with my life.
I'm pretty sure the game was about forgiveness. If it was about revenge she would've gotten revenge. The thoughts that lead the story IS revenge yes, but ultimately the plot was forgiving Abby for what she'd done because it wouldn't make Ellie any better than her. She tortured Nora and left her family to seek revenge, losing almost everything, even Tommy and how she was becoming obsessed with revenge but she ended up forgiving Abby, seeing how killing her wasn't gonna change anything and if she went through with it, she would become a monster just like Abby. If the main concept was Revenge then she wouldn't have cared what it took to make sure she got her revenge and not let it go last second
The revenge angle of part 2 's story is an extension of the type of story we saw in part 1. Which is getting over the grief of losing someone dear to you. While part 1 , griefing was learning to love again and accepting your loss The revenge angle of part 2 is about griefing through trying to find trauma on those who have harmed on us and how that lead us to triblistic violence.
Watch true detective's second season guys, it's amazing
Niko Bellic found the man he searched for 11 years in gta 4.When he found him he was empty. Didn’t matter what choice you made. You were empty at the end of the journey. He knew it wasn’t worth it.
Anyone else think Abby would be more realistic/relatable if she looked more like Ellie (like in flashbacks)
That's a very interesting idea to consider and likely probably was considered, along with making the girls different races. I think they ultimately settled on something that was "similar but different", which is probably the best way to go. If the girls look too different, it could lose some of the artistic intent of trying to get the player to realize they're one in the same. If they look very similar, then it's a bit on the nose. But still, a very interesting idea to consider nonetheless.
I get your point but at the same time are you just supposed to let people get away with things?
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If you are looking for an intersting and highly dramatic/romantic take on revenge, check out a Turkish series called Ezel. It is alongside The Last of Us part 2 the two best revenge stories for me.
Interesting to consider, though I would not profile TLOU2 as a romantic take on revenge. In fact, I think it works best because it's authentic instead of romanticized.
@@WolfofThorns yes ofc. But I was just thinking about the best revenge stories i've seen in terms of complexity and character/human flaws and motives behind acts that engender revenge.
@@aminetanouyat9643 Ah, okay! I shall have to look into this "Ezel" series when time permits. There is so much to watch!
@@WolfofThorns okay mak you are awesome. Love your content 👌👍
Would you be interested in doing reaction videos? There is this interesting writer who has highlighted multiple flaws and even offered an alternative story to The Last of Us part 2.
Best revenge movie = dead mans shoes
Hi
I really, really don’t think this game was about “revenge is bad” or “meaningless of revenge”. Was this something that we didn’t know? Something that hasn’t been shown in countless media already? On its surface level, and as a general, overarching plot, then yes, it was revenge. In reality I think the game was a deep dive into trauma, grief and loss. It was when Ellie was remember the good times of with Joel, with him at his best, that she was able to let go.
@Anna from Nowhere Well said, I agree completely! However, I feel as if obsession isn’t something that is too much seen in Ellie’s arc - I think obsession is what we see in Abby’s arc and what it made her become over the past 4 years. The reason I say this is because Ellie was not a rational actor - she was deeply traumatized and her choices were clouded, they weren’t her choices nor what she wanted, but something she just “did” without thinking, this is where I believe the reason for the moth tattoo, how a moth is instinctively drawn to light (or fire) even it may hurt it. It was her lack of autonomy in this all (throughout both games, part 1 with the cure, part 2 with Joel’s death) that lead her blindly follow these things set into motion by choices of others, but I think the Ellie in the epilogue is an Ellie who has again reclaimed her autonomy.
Well said that tribalism and perspective is seen with Abby - completely true. She sees it herself from Lev and Yara, the people who she’d been killing for 4 years. She herself gained perspective.
Further, I think Abby saving Lev from Isaac was a parallel in Joel saving Ellie from the Fireflies. Both of the antagonists (WLF/FF) saw Lev/Ellie as a “thing” (note Isaac says “WHAT is behind you” to Abby, and how Jerry saw Ellie as the host, not a child, and someone who he decided the fate over for his cause). Fundamentally, both Abby and Joel saved a child from being murdered. Ellie being immune didn’t change anything from the choice: because Ellie is more than her immunity.
Lastly, the reason I believe why often this “revenge bad” comes up is due to the misinterpretation of why Ellie left the farm, and the ending. It’s seen by player/ as the game punishing her, which is not correct. Focus tends to be on the wrong things (e.g. she can’t play guitar rather than what happens despite her inability).
Just wanna touch on your first 3 sentences. I think the whole "revenge is bad" or "meaningless of revenge" reveals an underlying issues to the mentality of the people who view and enjoy revenge stories, something that too many people are unaware of. So many entertainment media often portray revenge stories as "revenge is good", "revenge is fulfilling", "its cool to kill the person who took away your loved one", etc etc. I think this is one of the fundamental reasons why people reject and hate the fact that Abby lives in the end. The basic summary I'm trying to say is that typical revenge stories like John Wick and God of War (1-3) provides a sense of power fantasy and escapism. This ties to the issue of romanticization in entertainment mediums.
I believe that people complain and criticize the whole stupid "revenge is bad" message is because they refuses to accept it, which is why so many people are unhappy with TLOU 2's ending. It has gone to the point where people believes in "revenge is good".
If you wanna learn more, you can find a long comment of mine here in this video as well.
@@ryanli8371 That’s definitely true, media shows revenge both in a positive light but negative light, and in part 2 this can take away the fulfillment of some players. “So what were the past 25 hours of the game for?” “Ellie killed so many people, why stop here?”
I think there are a few simple things that could’ve been done to avoid players coming to this conclusion. For one, if it were properly portrayed why Ellie left the farm (due to her PTSD literally killing her), then there would’ve been more understanding. There was a boar hunting sequence that ended up being removed “for pacing” which became a journal entry. This was a big mistake, because otherwise players would’ve seen yet again how Ellie has a PTSD attack following the sheep, how she washes her face outside the farm house and hides to Dina her situation (“hunting took longer than expected”). If players understood the motive wasn’t revenge, they wouldn’t have had such a reason.
Second, the game appears to be punishing Ellie. It appears she lost her family, fingers because of “her obsession of revenge”, which of course is not true. It was as if the 25 hours were for nothing, Ellie ends up alone, and finished. It also makes he seem like the biggest loser in video game history.
@@T3AMKILL I hope I don't startle you, but I remember you from a different video. From AP Nerds' "How TLOU and TLOU 2 changed my life". You offer extremely well thought out insights and discussions about TLOU 2.
So I remember hearing this deleted scene with the boar hunting. After seeing what you said, it would provide more insights on Ellie's PTSD. I think one of the things you raised is that people like to be spoon-fed or things that are presented clearly to them instead of quickly coming to a surface level conclusion or take the effort of extra analyzation. Analyzation is very common skill when it comes to reading different literatures (I've recently read a couple) and its a skill I think that should expand beyond literatures such as movies and games. But I know that people don't like to analyze or over analyze things because its energy consuming so they opt for more surface level analysis, which can often results in misinterpretation.
I agree with you that the game is not "punishing" Ellie for her choices, despite how it appears to present that way. Its actually very sad people interpret that Ellie "lost" the game of revenge by letting Abby go because they genuinely hated Abby or do not understand the realistic impact of embarking on a revenge journey despite TLOU 2 trying to show that. A lot of people seemed to have developed a false notion that revenge is a game that every hero/anti-hero must win by killing the wrong doer. People would see characters like Inigo Montoya (Princess Bride), John Wick, Kratos, and John Marston as "winners" of their revenge stories. Like I said previously, those people watched too much power fantasy revenge stories.
Misinterpretation or not, the reality of revenge (especially when it comes to avenging a loved one and ideally killing the person who wronged you) is that there is no winner. Its game/cycle that severely hurts both parties. There is a reason that revenge is a fool's game. It is not a game/cycle I would want to find out and experience for real. Not for me, not for you, and not even to the haters of the game.
@Anna from Nowhere True, in that sense she did become obsessed, however this wasn’t in the sense of an obsession towards revenge, but rather she was losing her mind, SB in general was like a fever dream. However it’s true in that way she did become obsessed, but out of desperation of catharsis from her trauma.
Her lack of autonomy was also a center point: She never was her “own person” per se, and her life, choices, everything was through the decisions and actions of other people. From Marlene to Joel to Abby, and all things she did was as a reaction to these actions/decisions of others. All this while we see and know what a strong person she is, and she endlessly follows these actions set in motions by others. Ellie was always the victim. But I think her choice at the beach and the epilogue changes things, and it’s what makes this Part 3 Ellie so exciting. By the way, what makes the illustration even more beautiful is that it’s not on Joel’s porch, it’s the *farms* porch. It adds even more emotion to the farm and how it was Ellie’s place to grieve (note how the items in the rooms weren’t Ellie’s possessions but all Joel’s or things of her last, e.g. Sam’s robot, Riley’s pun books, Angel knives, etc., things she used to surround herself with as we saw in her room). It was likely Ellie’s palace to grieve, and that guitar was her symbolically putting Joel to rest, her own little funeral, as she sets off to do what he always wanted for her.
In regards to Jerry, it’s not so much about menacing but how Ellie was seen by him (and well everyone else apart from Joel).
It’s without a doubt Abby did the right thing to protect Lev from the WLF. There is never discussion on this, because there is no discussion. It was the right choice to save Lev.
Why is it a discussion with Joel? “He had it coming” or whatever else. Why all this controversy when there’s none with Abby saving Lev? Ellie’s also an innocent child? What’s the difference? Ah, the cure. Ellie is immune and the key for a vaccine. “He took away the cure”
Looking at it neutral, Ellie getting killed is no different than Lev getting killed. It’s this added variable that seems to act as an anchor and blurring people’s view from how things really are… which is an innocent child about to be murdered.
Whether Joel was a monster for taking away the cure is at its fundament whether one sees Ellie as an innocent little girl about to be murdered, or as a cure.
Ellie would have sacrificed herself for a cure. But it’s more complicated than that. It’s her trauma, her survivor’s guilt what is eating away at her. Her choice does not have agency in it. (Nor did she have agency regardless). Joel made the choice that Ellie never could’ve made (and a situation/question Ellie should have never been asked in the first place).
Fundamentally Joel saving Ellie is no different than Abby saving Lev. It was someone saving/protecting a child. Because it is not about her immunity. It’s about what she is. Joel saw his daughter about to get murdered, plain and simple, just like an innocent Lev was going to murdered for being a Scar.
The cure needs to be taken away, because the point is all about this: Ellie is more than her immunity.
That being said, Jerry’s side is understandable too. It depends on how you see things obviously. For me, Joel absolutely did the right thing.
I think the issue that people tend to see Part 2 as a revenge game is due what seems as punishment Ellie’s receives. It’s seen has “her obsession of revenge that made her lose her family, her last connection to Joel, and her biggest fear coming true”. It sort of becomes a self-confirmation - people think it’s a revenge game -> all the punishment Ellie got for wanting revenge confirms it.
Revenge is a fools game. It never ends up like it does in the movies and I'm so glad that tlou2 took us to the edge of that path but never gave us that "gratification" fully. Instead some of the pissed off gamers took revenge on naughty dog the actors and even us fans who loved this game.
I also wish you dug deeper and made longer form videos. It feels like you just touch the surface of the topic and then the video ends
TLOU 2 basically reminds us the worst part of ourselves, the humanity. The bitter irony, is that community's polarizing reaction proved its point. TLOU 2 brought out the worst of ourselves.
@@ryanli8371 I just remember that after Nora my perspective changed and I didn't wanna get revenge anymore. By the time we found Abby I just wanted to shake Ellie and snap her out of it. I saw alot of empathetic RUclipsrs who also didn't want to kill Abby. But then I saw some who were angry who wanted to finish it. I found the through line was empathy. If you had empathy you got the game. If you didn't then it failed. Just something I noticed imo
@@sablemae8853 revenge isnt for fools.
@@sablemae8853 You are mostly right. If you watched Girlfriend Review video of TLOU 2, it pretty much says the same thing. Unfortunately, a lot of people did not take what they said too well. Some even tried to frame them for attacking them based on different opinions. That situation is stupid and ugly. You should be able to find it.
@@ryanli8371 yeah I saw that video and dunkeys video. He got alot of backlash. Many of his fans thought he'd trash the game and when he didn't and praised it they lost it.
Wow a zombie video game that shows up that killing is bad and vengeance is bad. Would of never thought a subject could be so profound. It was such a touchy subject that Sony had to copy paste Joel’s face on someone else’s body to trick the audience into buying it.
Please stop with the BS. Everyone knows that in a zombie apocalypse people are doing horrible things. What makes a good zombie story impactful is showing a audience that they should love the characters because of the humanity that they still possess. But turning Ellie into a deranged serial killer only shows us why all zombie apocalypse movies and games are the same and there is no reason to love anyone more than the next. I could of played Call of Duty Zombies and got the same gratification.
Gee thanks Neil now we don’t like any of the characters what a masterpiece.
@@maestercraig3990 lmao I’m not toxic for not enjoying seeing pregnant women die😂 maybe the people who don’t like it or morally grounded people and the people who enjoyed it are sick🤯😂
What a woke,twisted and delusional mindset to have....
What a sad miserable life, the wokeness compels you.