Cybertruck Important Features Still Delayed! When Relying On OTA Updates Goes Too Far
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- Опубликовано: 21 апр 2024
- Kyle discusses what constitutes a complete saleable vehicle and when he believes automakers should leverage the power of over-the-air updates to improve features on vehicles.
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You already know what I’d say
Agree. Don’t pay today for a hamburger tomorrow.
I think it should have had Autopilot from day one, but things like the locking diff are not needed by 99% of people so that just needs to come in the first year.
Does AutoPilot need a whole bunch of miles collected before they can make it work?
@@SirDragonClaw Except you're making assumptions about how many people need/want a specific feature. The people wanting locking diff maybe have been fine getting that on day one and autopilot in the first year. Regardless: neither feature was available at launch, which is the salient point.
mk, Sure, you so far have trashed vehicles on petty issues or flawed software in their first release. I don't give a damn about TESLA esp CT but you should be more responsible and more thorough in your reviews.
Never buy a product based on what is promised rather than what is delivered
Bingo. It's better to under promise features so that you can be sure to deliver them on time. Then owners will be pleasantly surprised to find new features appear down the road with over the air updates. I bought my 2015 Model S which had AP1 ready to go on day 1. As others have stated here, buy today for what you can use today, not a floating promise in the future.
💯
Especially when it comes to Elon...dude likes to over promised and under delivered.
That's the same mentality MKBHD has and the problem with thinking that way is that the manufacturer who make that product would then have to change the price to reflect those promised features that aren't in the delivered product. I don't think any manufacturer would do that.
Get the product, not the promise.
Boy, I hope that the 10% of the workforce that got laid off the other day wasn't working on these issues...
Selling a product without the advertised features is wrong. I don't think it should be legal.
If you don't have a CT order, you have no say. Most CT owners are very happy to have their trucks now, and are willing to wait for other features. Relax.
It's not. You can sue for false advertising. The key thing here, is Tesla doesn't lie about it. They tell people its not there yet, and people buy them anyway.
@@777Outrigger lmao the CT is such a letdown
@@MaticTheProto Do you have a CT or a CT order?
@@777Outrigger no fanboy he and everyone else has the right to have a say. What tesla does should be illegal.
The best example for this is FSD, especially here in Europe. We payed and waiting for it for nearly a decade and ii is still not working! Many people have sold their cars already without ever using FSD and this is also not transferable under regular circumstances. Even in the US it is still beta and not able to work > Level 2....
That has more to do with EU regulations than Tesla tbh. Especially regarding companies using data from their customers in the last decade
complete scam
I apply the same mantra to vehicles that I do for tech "Never buy a product based on the future promise of updates to it." I bought a Rivian happy with what it was released with, I knew that going into it.
Yep, you can only evaluate what currently exists. If things get better in the future that's a bonus, but promises are just that and promises may not be fulfilled (or fulfilled on a reasonable timeline). If something I otherwise want doesn't meet my needs, my needs are not met.
From what I've seen, most CTs owners are happy as they can be. Willing to wait for other features to have their CTs now.
@@777Outrigger are they?
They are, mostly. You can’t make everyone happy, but CT is good enough to make most owners happy about it in its current state. Sure, it’d be even better w/ AP and diff lockers. For now we just can consider those features absent for unknown time.
@@NitroZakis the ct gets bricked and stained by a car wash...
To answer your question, Kyle, my opinion is that on day 1, the vehicle should come with all features and options you paid for and as advertised and listed in the bill of sale. If it comes with features or functions that are not activated (yet), you shouldn’t have to pay for it until it works, period.
You don’t buy shoes with missing shoelaces, just like you wouldn’t pay for a restaurant bill that lists a bottle of wine you didn’t get during your meal, would you?
As a customer, when you put 100+ grand on a table for a vehicle, everything you pay for should work; not in 6 months, not in 12 months, but right away, period. I think that is nothing but normal, why else would you pay big amounts of money for an unfinished product. I’m an X5 50e owner by the way, not a Tesla owner, but rest assured I verified that every single option I ticked worked when I took delivery of my car.
So I don’t think it’s a complicated topic. Again, if you pay for a service or feature, you’re entitled to have it work from day 1, I rest my case.
LOL, how many people bought FSD and never got it? There are many fish in the sea.
Amazing, and to be honest quite depressing, how many people disagree with such an obvious position.
I never thought expecting to get what you've paid for would become an outdated concept.
Tesla done the same thing when removing ultrasonic sensors. Took more than year to have a decent (ish) vision solution.
With respect to vision, I would like the windshield wipers on my Model Y so that *I* can see through the windshield with my vision when it rains. It really should be on a stalk, like every other car in western civilization, for immediate activation by feel. Automatic is so flaky I have to use a manual speed setting. To get it, I have to "find" the wiper icon on the screen and press it, to even get the speed choice up on the screen. Then I have to "find" the glass button speed I want, before POOF the selection list vanishes, and I have to start over again. This while I can't see where I am going because the wiper is doing nothing on the Auto setting. Dangerous!!! And as far as the ultrasonics and radar are concerned, "vision" hasn't caught up with what they can do for precision low speed maneuvers, and high-speed spacing and collision avoidance. Maybe some day. Meanwhile, give me wipers that work.
@@eddiegardner8232you can trigger the wipers with the stalk and then push the left scroll wheel left and right to switch between speeds
@@eddiegardner8232 Thanks for reminding me on the wipers. I've got a 2015 Model S with actual rain sensors. They work well for the most part. The amount of decontented features without improvements just makes me want to keep my old car longer.
@@SyntheticSpywhich is dumb...
It is how it is. I like the way it is. You don’t? Fine… 🤷♂️
I think my MY’s controls are much better than my Leaf’s very much standard controls.
It's good to see Kevin has realized what I learned on my own within the first year of Tesla ownership 5 years ago. Everyone was screaming how their cars get better over time with OTAs, but the reality is they were just unfinished products and the joke was on them. And there have been many instances where the OTA caused problems, or took away features. It's like an HR department, OTA's are not for your benefit, they are for Tesla's benefit.
I'm not a fan of updates. I'm an engineer who was forced into some subscription software that used to be stand-alone. After every update they push, some of my scripting doesn't work right or a feature has moved or there's some other BS I didn't ask for, want, or need at all. I don't even like getting recalls on my trucks unless I know exactly what they do. I had an recall on my 2011 F-150 ecoboost once that totally screwed up the mpg. It was supposed to deal with intercooler condensation problems, but it just made it a gas hog for some unknown reason. Maybe I am old school, but I don't like getting caught off guard with an "update" that's really a downgrade. Especially when I don't have the choice to opt out.
Sounds like a consumer protection law should be in place to allow customers to downgrade and pick what changes they want to accept
Yeah this is the future, let's move everyone to a subscription model. Just found out a piece of software that hasn't changed in 20 years is now sub based because why the fuck not.
Standard app store review:
"This app used to work great, before latest update! . . ."
It sounds like you have a different definition of trust and that it matters
Meeting your expectations of trust, with your wallet is tricky these days cuz trust takes time, And if Ford betrays the trust after you've given them their money then that just sucks for you in the now
I think you’ve identified something these updates can miss. It doesn’t seem that car companies (and certainly home entertainment installers) have a process to regression test the vehicle after a change. I am concerned that an OTA update could disable other important parts of the vehicle, as happened with your hardware update and gas mileage.
My beef is with the 4680 batteries. I was hyperhyped in the beginning. Now it is out what advantages does it provide the customers. Is the range longer than if they were the small batteries, do they charge faster, is the lifespan longer. I haven't heard anyone sing the praises of the 4680. Probability cheaper to build because no dry ovens are needed but that is not a plus for the customer.
those batteries were a flop, some people are still thinking they're going to get better somehow but I think they are what they are.
4680 was all about reducing Tesla’s cost. That’s it.
I think your right.
Honestly this has been my problem with the Tesla crowd for a while now. They're perfectly fine buying a car that can perform to the bare minimum and expect the updates to come later. This is crazy to me because you would not accept this anywhere else.
Except for almost all operating systems, software, video games… many things are like that now because people and the market will not wait. If Tesla took another year, with Ford, Rivian, and even Chevy now shipping and EV truck, would they be able to sell as many at as high a price?
People pay extra to get things sooner…
If that was not the case, then Tesla could have waiting until they got it right…
But sometimes the world and your customers will not wait.
Well about 4 years ago there were literally viable 0 other competitors. In 5 years though... 😂
It feels like gaslighting Is acceptable: perhaps some people accept that their reality is going to be yanked in One direction or another, and they're looking forward to it.
Perhaps They're excited by the changes, and they don't subscribe to the kind of trust that maybe has traditionally been offered by car manufacturers.
Seems like a waste of my life to be in that crowd. It's also similar to the post-truth phenomenon in politics, of, "well we know that you're lying Mr politician and we want to hear more! Because YOLO!"
Being a customer who is "in on the deal" , perhaps is what's behind the acceptability of delivering a cyber truck without advertised functionality and being asked to wait and wait instead.
It is unacceptable. I’ve had mine since early January and it’s freaking ridiculous that I paid over $100k for it to STILL not have basic Autopilot. Not even the PowerShare hardware I paid for. No wheel covers. It’s insane. I grossly overpaid. This is my 4th Tesla, it’s so disappointing that after supporting this company and being an early adopter we get nickel and dimed for shit that we don’t even receive.
Paying $100,000 says as much about the buyer as the seller!
You underpaid what it is going for with the truck scalpers
@@richardwolf6269 Not necessarily. I would happily pay $100k again for everything they promised. My only complaint is that it’s been over 3 months and approximately $20k worth of features are absent. Don’t get me wrong, I love the truck, it’s the best vehicle I’ve owned. However, I do not like being misled, especially at my expense.
You're already overpaying if you're paying 100K for one as it was supposed to be starting at 60K or so. You gave permission to Telsa to hold your 20K by buying it when you did. No one forced you pay for an unfinished product. Waiting always pays off especially when it comes to Telsa vechicles and it's features. You also lost 4K from FSD but what's 4K compared to a 100K right? 😊 Yes you're fournate to get yours early but it comes with a price at the end.
When fanboys get taken advantage of. 😂
Basic features like Autopilot and locking diffs should have been day-one. Absolute incompetence that they weren't, especially considering it's been four years since the truck was announced. They had 4. Friggin. Years. To sort this stuff out.
I agree those should have been there on day one but, taking many years to develop and release a mass production car is quite normal, especially something as abnormal as the cybertruck..
@@nathansussautopilot is nothing abnormal. I think they are having serious issues integrating drive by wire into the legacy software.
@@JonathanRootD the auto pilot is not the abnormal part of the car obviously 🤣 but yeah that could be why
Im sure they worked hard on the cybertruck in those 4 years, and they thought lets release it because they were so late. otherwise it would be even later
yeah i wonder if there are even lockers in there. it’s not a new feature.
This is 100% why, after 4 years of ownership, I sold my second Tesla and never looked back. When I first became an owner, the company was much more transparent and supportive. Then the model 3 took off and then the model y and that was the end of the last semblance of giving even one care about the customer. So glad to have exited the “Elon-verse”.
I remember this exact conversation about video games a few years back
Buy based on what is delivered, not what is promised
MCU1 FSD owners are still waiting for v12 FSD that they paid for 6+ YEARS ago. Tesla either needs to get it to them now, or give them a refund now.
The rule of "don't buy the first year of a new model" applies the most to Tesla.
*24 months for Lil’ T
For Tesla, the rule is dont buy the first 2 years
But if you wait too long then they will start to remove features.
@@quangsomit2490lol so true
Wait so Tesla's are like Windows? You buy every other release.
I think, at the very least it should have what it is advertised to have. You paid for full self driving you did not get it. You paid for an auto pilot. You did not get it. A year ago. I paid for enhanced autopilot. I still don’t have part of it.
To be Charitable, that is fraud. I can’t come up with any other word for it. either give me my money or deliver what you promised.
We as consumers ''ALLOW THIS'' almost in every market- companies are just pushing incomplete product out- saying we want are money now and we will fix later🤷♂
Saw my first cybertruck up close recently and the build quality was sooooooo bad. A 3 year old could have assembled a better truck. Misalignments and weird corners everywhere. I’m not convinced they have the manufacturing figured out yet
Tesla's fit and finish has never been stellar but it seemed to be improving incrementally over the last few years, then came the Cybertruck and it's right back to the worst build quality in the industry. Completely unacceptable for a 100K vehicle.
You should do a round-table with other reviewers who own a CT. You and Chris/Dirty Tesla would have lots of constructive criticism.
Nope. All you will have is fanboys been fanboys living in denial and making excuses. Really a waste of time.
@@jeffsteyn7174 Watch the content from us and you will know that is not true.
I’m not sure why a manufacturer like Tesla, thinks they can release something half baked and charge so much money for something that may or may not come be. They have been charging for full self driving for years, some got screwed years ago having hardware that isn’t compatible. Why pay a company to help them develop something in the future? It’s like a go-fund me lol
Give credit to musk for faking it until he made it, even if he never made it with fsd and prob never will.
they do it because they can get away with it
Fisker Ocean owner here and Fully agree with your points. Hopefully, the industry starts policing themselves and not wait for consumer protection regulations be put in place.
When has _that_ ever happened in human history? Get away with what you can until the complaints reach the ears of authorities, then change policy once the complaints outweigh the bribes in officials' minds.
“Hopefully this industry starts policing themselves” lmao
@@BogeyTheBear "If A+B+C = less than the price of a recall, we don't do one."
They won't, it's too lucrative to take advantage of opportunities like this where sucker consumers are willing to extend their trust through their wallets and be taken advantage of, in enough moderation so that businesses can milk sufficient profit
The general public is too braindead to stop buying so they have no reason to stop this activity
I own a 21 3LR AWD. I would rather a vehicle is delivered fully featured with no OTA feature updates ever.
Promised features must work at delivery, or you’re not getting what you paid for. OTA updates are for bug fixes
The software and video games industries have already been doing this, especially with the advent of subscriptions, feature packs, and downloadable content. You'll see this in the form of open Betas, unpolished games, and always-connected, licensed applications.
The other sign of the coin is, when will a car be considered End of Life? You've started to see it with Tesla updates deprioritizing Model 3s with Intel processors (only 3 years old).
With a bigger software focus, will planned obsolescence come into play? What features can be disabled? When an automaker is acquired by another (or goes out of business), how is licensing managed and honored?
How does an average person (non-enthusiast) disable OTA updates? Can OTA updates brick a car, intentionally or unintentionally, disable features, or have the car "go down" (rare, Alexa, Nest, etc. have had outages).
My Original 2018 Model 3 LR RWD is still running "Beta" enhanced autopilot and HW 2.5. I don't believe it will ever come out of beta.
Tesla should compensate owners that paid for that feature in a fair and equitable way, what they are doing and promising is unacceptable and boarders on fraud.
It seems to me that Tesla had no choice but to put the Cybertruck into production earlier than they wanted and unfinished. They hadn’t delivered a new vehicle in ~4 years and the refreshes to the existing lineup weren’t going to continue to drive sales.
The CT was already criticized as potential vaporware (as well as other aspects). Tesla seem to have decided it was good enough to put it out as is, but with all the unfinished stuff turned off. Fulfilling the dreams of the Stan’s and keeping the Tesla brand fresh in public’s mind.
This is not how customers should be treated. This is not how OTA’s should work. Of course, somebody who pays $100k+ for a truck isn’t going to criticize said purchase as they want their decision validated. So a survey of current owners will lean bias towards acceptance of the state of the vehicle.
Autonomy through AutoPilot and FSD is supposed to be a big deal for a Tesla vehicle - according to Tesla. Selling a vehicle without that baseline seems antithetical to the Tesla brand.
Promises are all that people can expect from Tesla at this point. The days of their lofty goals coming true are done unless there’s a significant shift. Robotaxi is nowhere near a reality, no matter what false hope they spew in August. Pushing back or cancelling the “model 2” seems like a huge mistake. The Robotaxi, if released will be another incomplete vehicle and would lead people to see Tesla as no longer capable of producing solid, feature-complete vehicles.
OTA’s are to improve on the baseline. There should be very little driving dynamics that need to be changed from launch day. Most of the updates should be for security, entertainment, and convenience features. Improvements to Autonomy enhancements are great and all, but only if those updates have been thoroughly tested and don’t put lives at risk. For example: Turning off the sensors to rely on Vision was unacceptable. Customers paid for that hardware and the safety of their vehicles were compromised when Tesla decided to remotely shut off and nullify the hardware.
TLDR; Kyle is correct that there has to be a middle ground. Tesla should not have put the Cybertruck into production yet, but they did anyway because… idk but I’m sure there’s an interesting story behind it that we won’t find out about for quite some time. Tesla is no longer focused and I think we can point a finger in the direction of where that lack of focus is coming from.
What about making your vehicle objectively *worse* through over the air updates? When OTA updates "upgraded" my Model 3 to stop using the radar and all of a sudden the passengers in my family started getting car sick from the more herky-jerky Autopilot relying on only cameras, *that's* where Tesla lost me.
Yeah, I've always thought that the update process should always let you drop back one release, if you don't like the changes. Problem is, I held off on updates for 6 months at one point because I didn't like some of the UI changes. The FM radio and some other stuff eventually stopped working ( presumably because it depended on an API that got changed / removed ). So I was eventually forced to take the update...
Our Model Y has radar. They turned it off. Now cruise control in the rain gets confused. On a long drive in pouring rain, it decided to go 50 MPH on a 65 MPH road. We could see just fine and the heavy traffic was all moving well. Our Tesla wanted to go really slow and be an obstacle on the road. We drove without cruise control, let alone autopilot or FSD, for the entire drive. With the radar running, this never was an issue.
@@danandfaith unfortunately, you highlight a negative of my previous comment. While I think I'd like the ability to drop back a release if the new release wrecks something for me, it doesn't let you pick and choose which changes you're going to take, so you end up biting the bullet and just dealing with a change you don't like, or you fall back and never take another update. There's no perfect solution...
Good on you man! So many Cybertruck reviewers have completely avoided mentioning ANY of the major issues with the vehicle!
I know I’m just some random dude on the internet but, in my mind, this shows me you have integrity as I know you really like Tesla. You have my respect 😊
Tesla is the only manufacturer that can get away with this. No way would it be acceptable for the legacy guys.
Look at VW ME2 SW or the Initial Ioniq 5 SW without any EV route planning. The legacy automakers do the same thing. But afterwards they don't even get the OTA out. The main difference is the media coverage.
Glad the drool factor has come off, if these same issues were from another vehicle brand they would be trashed.
100% agree this is crap.
Why didn't they deliver a complete vehicle? They needed more money,so they overcharged the early orders to get the cash they needed. :)
FACTS, FACTS, FACTS💯%!!! KYLE most of the public agrees with you! This has to stop, this is similar to the gaming industry releasing "half azz games" and saying they'll patch them later...my 💵💵💵 says NO!
Firm hard believer that you should never buy any software-based product (car, phone, computer, TV etc) with the promise of future updates. I never expect manufacturers to deliver on those promises, even though it's nice when they do. As the resident techie in the family who is always asked for buying advice on everything from cars to phones, I tell everyone the same thing: Be sure you're happy with the features it has on day 1 of purchase, and if you're not, don't buy it. Either buy something else, or wait a bit to see what happens with that product down the line.
The CT rollout has been an absolute disaster and the stock is showing that the emperor might actually have no clothes afterall
Yeah I totally agree with you on this... on the one hand I'm glad that I had the choice to buy it because personally I've waited long enough, I want the truck for personal use, but also want to make content, and the updates will come eventually...
But then I am going to sound like a hypocrite because on the consumer side I'd advise people *not* purchase this vehicle when they're not getting all of the advertised features the second they hand their money over.
Now if it's made clear "You pay us in full, you get A and B now, but the rest of the alphabet is coming later" and the person still wants to go through with the purchase, then go for it. But as Cybertruck ramps, more and more purchasers will be less and less informed... and to be now 6 months after initial deliveries still with 0 Autopilot is weird, let alone the other features.
It’s a function of agile software development to deliver just good enough software and continue working on features to get more of them working in later releases. Pretty common in my world.
You should get free charging if they cant deliver what you paid for. 20K is alot of money. People are still waiting on roadsters.
I think if everything in the vehicle is ready to go, and they can fix/add stuff in an update and the buyer agrees to that then it’s fine. If Tesla offered “early access” buying I guarantee they would still be sold out of cybertrucks with people knowing it’s unfinished. As long as it’s communicated what you’re buying then it’s fine, let the consumer decide but offer it as is or they can wait, can’t blame the company if you were impatient.
That is one view and I am extremely happy that I canceled my CT order over a year ago. Tesla fans were all over Toyota when their EV wheels fell off but have not heard a peep from them over the CT accelerator pedal failure. I am still happy with my ICE vehicles. I will re-evaluate in 2028 if I will buy an EV. Most likely it will be a Ford, Chevy, or KIA. If I had to buy now it probably would be the Chevy Colorado Boss which is really looking like a good option.
I drive an ID4, and I have gotten some updates, but it was a complete (if somewhat imperfect) car from the get-go. I appreciate the improvements in the UI, and the other improvements since I got it in ‘21, but it’s always been a good vehicle. I agree that consumers should get what was advertised, features they may have bought the vehicle for.
TSLA CyberTruch=CT= Crash Toy now all recalled for danger pedal issue! lucky I sold out my shares near 210 taking small loss!
Thanks again for the deep dive into everything 😊. I'm still don't know if me 23 ID4 is going to get any of the updates that are on the 24.
Yes. Tesla took my $100k already, I still can’t schedule my delivery, plus when delivery finally comes, I’m not getting my $100k worth.
For me, the situation is simple. You have made a reservation and paid for a product with certain described specifications and features. If something you have already paid for is not available on delivery, then it is an unfinished product. In this situation, you should have a choice: 1) not accept delivery and get a refund or 2) financial compensation for the missing features.
What is even more surprising is that in the US, as customers, you sue companies for minor things, but have excuses for Tesla's behaviour. In the EU it is against the law and falls under customer protection as misleading advertising. If the product description contains false information.
Very troubling. Also V4 SuperCharger dispensers have been out for almost a year, but no front end components. Are there problems with power delivery and multi-platform support?
The other side of the coin is how long should software updates be provided to older vehicles?
Security updates should last at least throughout the powertrain warranty period. Any other updates like UI improvements should only be guaranteed through the regular warranty period provided the vehicle came feature complete on day 1.
Seems like a good question for the investor’s call
Good points. As a CT owner, I’m SO happy that I get to enjoy this amazing vehicle early, and look forward to the improvements over time. It’s part of the fun!
I would NOT be as happy waiting another year to get to drive it. 🤨
Good reminder.. Just canceled my $100 placeholder.. Might buy one later if they get their crap together and if the price comes down in a year or two..
I’m one move closer to the goal, thanks! 🙏
Smart man. CT's will be heavily discounting in a year or 2, so that means the chumps paying $101K for a dual motor will cry when they are worth around $40K used in 1-2 years. Many of these CT early adopters are not big ballers that can tolerate losing $30K/year of net worth on a meme.
@@JetFire9 Well, good thing that people have their own mind, right? We (the chumps, aha!) can calc our losses ourselves, thanks.
Musked again
What I want from ota updates in the BEV world: tweaks and improvements to charging; Fixes for any number of bugs (let's have it, getting code perfect is extremely hard); Improvements to UI from owner feedback.
100% accurate. The CT shouldve been feature complete day one, but apparently thats too hard. wasnt the M3 and S/X feature complete on day one? What changed? And now the biggest annoyance for me is the fact that the new 2024.14 update wont be coming to my 2020 M3 sr+... extremely maddening. I'd say thats another topic maybe as well.
I think Model 3 didn't have heated rear seats on launch, but that's it, I think.
My first Tesla was a Signature Series Model S, back in 2012. It was shipped without many basic trim parts (no rear deck cover, no rear spoiler, etc). It also came with the very first release of the software. I would get updates about every 2-3 weeks, and many of those updates would completely change the personality of the vehicle. I witnessed major changes to the visual user interfaces, some for the better, and some not so much. Got my Cybertruck about 3 weeks ago now. This feels like it may be a similar experience. Patience is a virtue with these completely new vehicles.
Thank you Kyle - just the questions that have kept me OUT of the EV market. I hate the thought that an OTA update could make the system worse. That updates could be what half the drivers love and the other half hate. The best thing about traditional vehicle manufacturing is that in general it is not in production until it is feature complete, working, and pretty much not changing. Once sold, nothing should be changing except for aesthetics. Everything else should be rock solid and not changing because the vehicle works in its entirety.
That’s called hustling. companies out there hustling enthusiast
Thank You folks for All that you are doing for our Planet Earth.... Peace.. Shalom.. Salam.. Namaste
🙏🏻 😊 ✌ ☮ ❤ 🕊
Getting a Tesla a year earlier while some features are built out is completely okay with me, however, paying for FSD and not even getting Autopilot with Cybertruck is 100% unacceptable!
OTA should be for:
1. patches/fixes
2. software refreshes (new UI can make the car feel newer, this is a big plus of OTA)
3. new features, if its distributing new features developed for new models back down the line of older models or just a new idea
OTA should not be for promised yet-to-come features or shipping with bad basic software with the promise to improve it later.
FSD is kinda okay because its optional, can be purchased later and is pushing the limits of what is possible.
(This is meant as an explanation of what is likely happening, not as a defense of the product):
Being a dev and having a decent understanding of a couple software philosophies (mostly Scrum, and Kanban to a lesser extent) - this is actually exactly the way we want to deploy.
We want to get something out to the public as soon as we can, then improve it with feedback. Otherwise devs may work on things for extended period of time and it’s not even something the majority of users want.
I agree that not having Autopilot is weird and sounds frustrating. But again, the philosophy is pretty clear about getting the deliverable out the door- in public hands - and then improve it with iterations.
Love how Rivian is "the bar". 😊
100% agree. Last year I spent 6 months researching EV’s before purchasing our first one. We wanted an under $25k EV for the $4k federal 12:47 tax credit. The one I liked the best was the Leaf. I searched in vain to find a chademo adapter. We got a 2020 Niro Niro EV EX Premium & love it. The cost of operation is pocket change compared to ICE. The Leaf had such promise, but you can’t drive it out of town. I don’t see how they sell even 1 now.
As a product manager in the software industry, a lot of folks here need a class in agile development. No question a product shouldn’t ship with fewer features than what are advertised as being in production at the point of sale, and to whatever extent that happened here that was wrong. But the business model of shipping a minimum viable product to collect revenue and feedback early while continuing to iterate is what affords us with these incredible and complex platforms/technology. The economics wouldn’t work otherwise - and the continuous iteration/feedback loop is how we end up with way better and more innovative products in the end. So IMO, a debate around what should have constituted minimum viability is healthy, but a wholesale rejection of iterative development is shortsighted.
Please call Andre and Roman and tell them not to waste our time and their money on the cyber truck!
I'd like to send a shout out to the early adopters. Thank you all for taking that financial hit and for being the guinea pigs that progress all of us along our ev journeys.
Lack of autopilot alone would be a deal breaker.
The car companies should present a binding timeline when features like auto pilot are implemented. If the feature is delayed, the company has to pay a penalty for example, free supercharging . With this strategy, it is possible to enjoy the car early without taking a big risk.
only 13mins long, I was very concerned.
Hi Kyle,
You have hit the nail on the head, and your frustration with Tesla is completely justified. After all, the fundamental principle of any transaction is that you receive the value equivalent to what you've paid for.
In this scenario, you've parted with your hard-earned money, but in return, you've been given the assurance of a feature rather than the feature itself. This isn't the standard practice in the industry. Were it any other manufacturer, customers would not hesitate to invoke lemon laws.
It's important to remember that customers are not investors. They don't hand over their money based on the promise of a future return. They pay for a product or service they expect to receive immediately.
I won't be surprised if this issue leads to legal proceedings. Your perspective on this matter is invaluable, and I appreciate you sharing it.
Lastly, your comment about German manufacturing prowess made me smile - they indeed have a reputation for their efficiency and precision!
It kills me that there’s no kind of timeline or disclosure about what’s not available when you buy the truck.
I am a foundation order holder. I have put my order on hold because the truck is not currently meeting my expectations.
If I did not watch a ton of RUclips about this cybertruck. I would have been blindsided by the fact that the locking differentials were completely missing. It definitely needs to be disclosed preferably with an estimation of how long it’s going to be until that feature is implemented.
For example, when the truck first launched, and there was no full self driving a lot of people in RUclips videos guessed that it was coming within weeks. It’s now been months. It would be really nice if Tesla said something like we need 500,000 miles from our cyber truck fleet before we can safely implement self driving and we expect that to take nine months. All of a sudden the guesswork is gone and prospective owners know what to expect.
Reason why i didnt buy the cybertruck yet despite having a 1st hour reservation. Sell me a solid truck for a reasonable price that I can drive myself and has decent range while towing/hauling, you know basic truck things. Don't make us buy fsd when its clearly not ready/available, its just a big distraction. Most of the problems are related to 4680 snd FSD not living up to promised performance. Until it does, CT is gonna have problems with mass adoption.
I agree with your assessment and criteria. My big concern with the Cybertruck missing basic, promised features is that there is no guarantee that just software updates will get them working. What if there is a hardware issue to getting that truck to be "Baja Ready" or getting Autopilot let alone FSD to work? Since they are not working now how could these features have been tested and proven out prior to production?
I feel your pain Kyle. I'm way back at 1.2M on the waiting list, but I was just talking to a friend about all the missing features and would I still want a Cybertruck. I'd be really nervous if I'd reserved on the first day and my reservation window was coming up within the next year. What you are saying is that there is more missing software than I had heard about. I want to be able to tow with a 360 degree view around the truck and trailer. I want to have the truck self-backup with a trailer. I want to have the differentials lock when I do a little offroading. I want the ride height to stay where I put it if somebody gets out of the truck. The handling of braking and regen should be totally integrated to maximize offroad (and on-pavement) stability. This is all stuff that is known engineering. Somebody has already done it, why isn't it nearly trivial to add to the Cybertruck. Is Tesla's software team spread a little too thin?
Amen! Basically me won’t buy until everything is there.
Tesla Semi is a similar story.
Great for transporting potato chips.
So basically Cybertruck 2024 = Cyberpunk2077
A very similiar debate has been taking place in the gaming community for many years. Ironically, the most notable example of this was the game Cyberpunk 2077. Futuristic game that was supposed to have the most amazing visuals and game play ever seen before. Kept getting delayed and finally they just went ahead and released it, as is. It was an utter mess. They quickly made promises that it would get better over time - and it did- but many were upset they paid money for a game that was basically still being worked on. On the other hand, there were others that were thrilled they could start playing right away with no more delays. Plus, they got to watch it improve in realtime and that was exciting for the hardcore fans.
Kyle, I think you nailed it with the Foundation Series being delivered to the hard core fans that won't complain. We are hearing complaints, but far less than would happen if it were released to everyone all at once. I actually think this was deliberate on Tesla's part. They have, in essence, bought themselves an additional year to get these things worked out and updated in the Cybertruck before non Foundation Series trucks are sold. The gamble they took was that the level of complaints wouldn't erode the take rate on reservations once they reach non-Foundation to a huge degree. I personally am OK being one of the early buyers that helps to improve the truck, but it really takes that perspective and intention for that not to be a frustrating position. It'd be great if there was a way for Tesla to just be up front and transparent about that. I would have still bought one even with a statement like that made by Tesla. Maybe a lot less would have bought them, but it would be cleaner all the way around, and would likely mitigate the public perception issues that are coming at this point.
Agree with your conclusions. 06:00 Incidentally, off topic, those shoe laces look like they could be dialled in a bit better; risky associated handling issues ;)
Is the ct good or what?
You have a very good point. The vehicle should come with the requirements as advertised. OTA should be for improvements. I waited 2 1/2 years for my Rivian and I’m fine with it as long as I get what I paid for. However, the power tonneau was removed from my configuration which was fine since they were having issues with it. I then opted to purchase the manual tonneau and unfortunately when I took delivery it didn’t come with it and was very disappointed. I even had to ask about it since it was not brought up by the guide. So to this day I have no tonneau and no mention from Rivian about it. I understand they are a new company but it would have been nice to be informed. So now I am just waiting.
While i understand your point, at the end of the day, you had a choice. Nobody forced you to buy it. I would prefer the ability to buy now and wait for the updates vs. just wait some more. It's not like it's not drivable in current form.
"Updates" are just that, updates. The car must come with the features promised at the time of purchase. It sounds like you're paying brands the cost of developing a feature beforehand.
With Tesla’s issues they are dealing with now. I would think their OTA updates will be slower. They just got rid of 10% of their employees overnight. They have some serious issues to work out. I agree with you that lockers, full rear steering and Autopilot/FSD should have been there at launch. You do not have a complete vehicle. That is not OK. Teal just doesn’t care. They have your money.
Is delaying these update and feature hurting Cyber Truck reservations? Are a large number of people cancelling their orders to the point where Tesla says "Oh no. we are not selling any now"? My guess is No, so that means Tesla will just keep doing what they are doing. Glad people like Kyle are reporting on this.
I am hanging on to my CT preorder. Won’t spring for the foundation, but if my number comes and alot of promises are still pending, I am going to cancel
They simply don't have enough data. They released the truck to bring in more data. 😅😅😅
NO LOCKING DIFFS... out the door... THAT STINKS IMHO
I understand the frustration but as someone who wouldn't buy a first run new vehicle I think we get the best of both worlds. Early adopters get the pain.
My Ford Mustang Mach-E ist now nearly 3 years old and the electric frunk opening is still not working. There's a button on the keyfob which has never done anything. (Europe)
Good format: Thanks: Working for a couple of high tech companies including one here in Colorado, traditionally they often do put out a product before it's ready! The change I notice over the last 20 years is more prevalent with software v/s hardware improvement. Seeing customers spend MILLIONS before product was ready. Consumer business should be different. I would NOT purchase a car if there were features not ready. In fact, I just cancelled my deposit with Volvo on EV30 because when I was able to view/touch it, and ask questions - no NACS yet. I cancelled my reservation/deposit. I wonder if the Cyber Truck was an "emotional" purchase for you and others?
Agree with you 100%. But one addition: some companies produce the vehicle with “complete features” but they are buggy and frankly ruin the experience. So, even though the feature is there, it’s not doing what it’s supposed to be doing.
GM UI is awful. Ford’s navigation and charging integration with the drive (much more basic features that should work flawlessly) don’t work well.
My view is that so long as they make it clear upfront what you're getting, then that makes it your choice as a customer.
If they claim the car already has a feature and it turns out that it doesn't, or they break a firm promise then that's another matter entirely.
In my view, vague promises should be considered not a promise when making your decision about buying it.
Automatic lane change is a safety car input...but because you love off-roading,You prefer to have off- road modes work well and come with the car and A-L-Change be an update.How wise...
Great take Kyle; I wholeheartedly agree. Anything mentioned in marketing materials or key selling points / features should be useable at launch
Hey Kyle your so on point, the Tesla Model is one reason ill never own one, main stream car manufacturers would never release a half backed product. I get they all have issues but Tesla seems to push that envelope.
You clearly have never seen the first releases of the VW ID.3 software... 😂
@@matthiaskunst8336 yep probably right
Almost completely agree. VW have had plenty of mis-steps by delivering a ‘complete’ vehicle (incl software) and then never updating it. But there does need to be a minimum viable product. When a ~$35k Model 3 has more capability in dat to day use than a ~$120k Cybertruck, it’s bordering on an abusive relationship between Tesla and it’s most loyal customers. Now the value of FSD is reduced, so we don’t even have it, and it’s already depreciated. So I like the significant updates that Tesla manages, all the time, via OTA, but they’re not stepping up when it comes to CT.
I worry more about the features and software changing without having control over it. We used to have standardized independent 5.25" bays so you could swap the radio/upgrade/modify the car. These days, a car will eventually lose its network connectivity when 3G/4G/5G networks shut down, and we'll have no ability to upgrade it.
Feels like the recent push for repairability needs to extend to legally-required standardizing for cars.
*Kyle* Have you received your recall fix on the accelerator pedal issue?
I seriously question the logic of a company that decides to, excuse the pun, reinvent the wheel, with EV's. The marketing gurus gave decided that the best way to get as many people as possible to get behind the wheels of electric vehicles is to throw out every known working area of a vehicle and redesign it, while simultaneously adding in a completely new way of powering it! What could possibly go wrong? There are numerous well proven car shapes and designs that have been built for years, that would have been ideal to just effectively take out the ICE engine reshape the floorpan and add batteries. Well proven models that existing customers are driving and loving. But no, lets get as complicated as possible and release vehicles that are going to have loads of teething problems, that will not help to convince the mass market to change anytime soon.