I worked for an agricultural supply business. We sourced anodized farm gates from China but sold them as made in USA. We got caught out. The local agri-newspaper referred to it as gate-gate.
Yes, especially if the TDI has LNT+SCR catalysts and no defeat device, because then you combine low NOx with low CO2. The problem is not diesel, the problem is cheating in emission tests.
+niceguy60 I am sure VW was being targeted because Obama is a globalist who uses the environment to force companies to get carbon credits in the Chicago Carbon Exchange, in which he is a stake holder for setting it up for it's primary owners, Al Gore and Maurice Strong. He did that with his Executive Order with coal power plants. The only ones that stayed open were GE's, which it was proven he got a payoff, as it was proven they bought a shit ton of carbon credits from the CCX.
OnkarrSingh The Democrats tend to be more the globalists. There are Republican ones, like the Bush clan and McCain. The difference is, there are less of them on the right, but they may also look out for other's interests that aren't part of the globalists.
You know what's VW real fault? They were getting too much fuel economy. 50 mpg diesels, even with higher no2 emissions, are less contaminant than hybrids and the fracking required to feed our huge SUV's.
+SalveMonesvol I have a Jetta TDI and a Prius. The TDI averages around 39 MPG and the Prius around 55 MPG. I love the diesel's torque but the fuel economy is not even close. At all. Also, if you look it up, the Jetta TDI produces 0.04 PPM NOx while the Prius only 0.003 PPM NOx. That's over ten time less NOx emissions. And this is under testing conditions where the TDI engine "cheats" and produces less NOx emissions than in the real world. Diesel technology is great but don't present it as something it is not.
+Tamás Madarász First of all you must drive your TDI with your foot to the floor at all times, my 2013 TDI averages 45mpg, secondly Theres a reason that your Prius doesn't create as much NOx as a TDI, because gasoline engines don't really produce a lot of NOx to begin with. Gasoline and Diesel fuel burn in very different ways and while they produce the same gases, they produce in different ways and wildly different amounts. I can almost guarantee that 90% of the people talking about NOx emissions right now didn't even know it existed until a few weeks ago.
+Tamás Madarász in Europe practically everybody uses Less than 5L/100km IN THE CITY with vw's small diesel cars. The difference might reside in the rpm ranges you are used to. These engines like an open throttle at very low rpm. Always use the highest gear you can and shift before 2.000 rpm. I know it sounds boring and slow, but that's how you get good consumption. Maybe in America that driving style would make people anxious and honk at you, I ignore it.
Let me state, that my Jetta TDI has been a fantastic vehicle and because of the RIDICULOUS EPA standards, we will no longer have these torque laden, high performance, reliable, quiet, no smoke, 45 MPG vehicles again. Some are complaining, but who cares about the little bit of delay in receiving our much higher than value compensation. We all benefited from this situation with many years and miles of useage, only to be rewarded with virtually all of our expense of ownership back to us. RIP TDI...
There's definitely smoke. It's called nitrogen dioxide, and it's literally poison. In high enough concentration it will kill you like chlorine gas. The same type of people complaining about EGR and the EPA complained about taking lead out of gas. Despite the fact that we poisoned a generation of Americans just so a manufacturers could spend a little less money.
While I appreciate your attempt here, I am afraid your results are not valid; as VW's software is smarter than that. To begin with I don't think you put it in the proper dyno calibration model; as I understand that disables the traction control from triggering. (With older Golf R's you had to take the car through a sequence of steps to enable a dyno mode that disabled four wheel drive, but I am not sure how it works on the TDIs.) Also, you did not match the EPA's actual test, and I believe the software is specifically looking for those conditions to enable the "cheat". (Look up FTP-75, HWFET, SFTPUS 06, SFTP SC03.) I know for the newer vehicles CARB ran the phase 2 portion of the FTP on a loop and were able to detect that VW had tuned DEF dosing to result in a proper emissions output at the start of the test, but would reduce it in time to the point that emissions were uncontrolled. My guess is that older cars use a similar method and are looking for specific characteristics mirroring the actual EPA test as opposed to a straight dyno run, and that the decreased performance you saw was simply a result of the car going into a failsafe mode since traction control and abs were not functioning properly.
Troy Strain Well unfortunately I am not much of authority in this area either; as otherwise I could tell you how to enable the proper car mode and provide greater detail with regards to differences between TFL’s testing and that actually used by the EPA. As a TDI owner who also has an engineering background I have been greatly concerned and curious about the specifics of this case, and accordingly taken something of a special interest as of late in any relevant technical documentation and/or qualified mass media publications (primarily Consumer Reports in the case of the latter) relating both to the EPA’s testing procedures and Volkswagen’s means for avoiding compliance. It is based on information derived from that research that I raised the objections cited above rather than from any personal experience in the field however. That said, based on my technical background and tangential understanding of the subject, I am relatively comfortable with the legitimacy and accuracy of those aforementioned assertions; as to the best of my knowledge they are in accordance with any and all documentation on the topic. It does not help that in the past when covering material to which my personal and professional experience is more directly related: TFL has repeatedly shown something of a bias towards producing attention grabbing populist videos that attempt to mimic some sort of scientific authority but that in all actuality have very little credibility in terms of methodology, procedures, and/or standards. Basically, I just wanted to make it clear on what authority I was speaking as opposed to having my words somewhat blindly lauded as some sort of definitive source of information. (No offence intended with that last statement. I just don't want to spread misinformation if I can help it.)
Troy Strain I could be wrong, but I don't think they would have the kind of equipment. The EPA does its testing at the National Vehicle Fuel & Emissions Laboratory (NVFEL) in Ann Arbor Michigan, and their systems and approach seems to be extremely specific to the particular types of tests they are responsible for administering. For example, as opposed to the more conventional eddy current type dynamometers like the one used in this production, the EPA uses a more dedicated compound dynamometer that is explicitly designed with emissions applications in mind. As such it is more complicated/expensive and requires more cooling and control systems, but allows the operator(s) greater control over the vehicle being tested; as it can better simulate load conditions, road surfaces, braking, and other normal driving variables. Additionally these systems have specific options integrated into their control software that meet the required guidelines governmentally regulated emissions testing that either can be used to either control a vehicle’s throttle/braking directly via electronic interface (most likely OBDII) or provide technicians with on screen guidance for a vehicle’ operation and management; as is needed in the case of test cars equipped with manual a transmission. The precision with which these types of systems operate is the reason that VW could code their ECU's software to detect when it was being tested, and is in part why I think that TFL’s attempt at replicating the power output of the vehicle during testing ultimately failed in its intended objective. I will include a link to a video that shows an example of this kind of dynamometer, more specifically a “HORIBA ATS VULCAN Chassis Dynamometer”, in a proceeding post; as I am not sure if comments with links are blocked or require approval. (If they are, you can search for the quoted text above on RUclips and find the video I am referring to.) Due to the size and cost associated with this equipment (which is anywhere in the neighborhood of .5 to 1.5 million dollars based on the figures I have seen) you are probably not going to find such a system in any facilities that are not specifically owned by a vehicle manufacturer or run by a government agency; as they are the only groups that generally have a need for those system. More to that point it doesn’t seem like most universities with, even those with well-established automotive engineering and development programs, have access to such equipment, and therefore they use the EPA’s NVFEL facilities for that purpose for certain eco oriented design competitions and challenges.
+Andrew Price Great comments, the power curve on the 2nd dyno run clearly shows a lot of dips and spikes compared to the first. I would bet that the shop owner explained this to them and they just chose to not include that segment in the video, for obvious reasons. As you said much more eloquently, TFL is pure clickbait psuedo-science... which is a shame, since they seem to have quite an operating budget and access to lots of great vehicles.
doctor zaius Thank you. The kind words are appreciated. It is always nice to know that someone enjoys reading through my overly verbose drivel… even in spite of my longwinded nature :). As for your comments: I am not sure what to think about the whole situation with TFL and this particular video. While part of me would say that the technicians administering that test would have to realize that their results were not valid, another part of me wonders if they even knew what they were trying to replicate and how different the two tests really were. To be honest before this became a major concern for me and my car I had no idea about the specifics of the EPA’s emissions testing procedures/protocols, and so it is entirely possible that both the staff at TFL and Tobz Performance were equally oblivious to those details as well. In fact in continuing to research this topic this morning I realized that I had some of my facts regarding differences in dynamometer types wrong, and so I had to go back and rewrite some of the sections in my earlier post relating to that. So with that in mind I would say it could happen to anyone, and I am not ready to rush to judgement and say that either TFL or Tobz knowingly produced a video with inaccurate results. That said, I think they should have had some inkling that their testing was not valid based on how the car’s anti-lock braking and traction control systems behaved…. But then again I (clearly) don’t spend that much time dealing with dynos: so perhaps those issues are not that uncommon when testing a car. I did actually go back and watch the video again, and I think you got one thing wrong though in your viewing. You mentioned one line on the graph having a lot of dips and spikes, and I think you are referring to the black line at the top of the readout? I have no idea what that line relates to, but the red lines signify horsepower and the blue torque; with solid lines representing the first run, and dashed the second. They really did not explain this well in the video, and so I actually had to rip it and go frame by frame in premiere to realize this myself. Regardless, both seem relatively smooth and progressive to me. I will say that a lot of people don’t understand how a car’s power is derived, and I think that misunderstanding plays a part in how the data was presented in this video. More specifically most people tend to think of horsepower and torque as two separate measurements when really they are interrelated units that represent torsional power. That is why if you ask most people, even car enthusiasts, to explain the difference between horsepower and torque to you, they will generally struggle to come up with any sort of concrete answer. Usually they will just end up rambling on with some really long complicated response that refers to top-end and low-end power, when the real answer is that time is the only difference between the two. Torque and horsepower (in automotive applications at least) both measure the amount of twisting force being applied to the wheels. The only real difference is that horsepower is sustained twisting force over a set interval, whereas torque is that force at a particular point in time. This is where having some understanding of the engineering based calculations involved really helps; as to me at least it is a really easy relationship to understand if you know the equation behind it. More specifically, to calculate horsepower in automotive applications you take a vehicle’s torque, multiply that by RPMs (which is where time comes in), and then divide that value by 5252. Or if you prefer (TQ*RPMs)/5252 = HP. (This is a simplified equation, but it works.) This is why when you look at a car’s torque and power curve on a dynamometer readout horsepower usually exceeds the torque value at around 5200 RPMs (newer TDI’s are an exception to this rule due to how their turbo and control systems work), and it is also why diesel engines always have more torque than horsepower; as they redline at around 5000 rpm before the multiplier in the numerator can exceed the value of the denominator. This is important to understand in that it helps to explains to some why the car in this video exhibits a greater differential in terms of peak torque output (32lb/ft) when compared to the rather minimal difference in terms of horsepower (2hp according to the readout). Like I said before it is possible the car went into a failsafe mode because the ECU’s TCS and ABS system were not responding properly, however once pushed the driver may be able to override this mode and restore full power; as the ECU may assume that the car is operating normally at that point, and the fault is actually with its sensors. Given that peak torque on that motor is supposed to come in at 1750 RPM and 4000RPM for HP: that could account for that difference; as the engine was still operating in a failsafe mode at the point that peak torque would have been achieved, and then normalized later in the power band. (Their results showed peak performance at 2500RPM and 3500RPM for torque/horsepower respectively, but this could relate to differences in altitude and air density as well.) That said, I do have some questions regarding this test and its results. 1) The person controlling the car said he had to “ease into it” so it did not down shift, and so I wonder if that could be another reason that the torque was lower; as potentially it took longer for boost to build up in the system. 2) Why did they not disable the TCS and try running the test in that mode for sake of comparison? 3) While the dyno they used (MD-AWD-500 to be exact) seems to have a fairly expansive feature-set given its more common nature, unlike the EPA’s compound dynamometer which has independent electric motors for each axle theirs uses a direct mechanical linkage (more specifically an aramid fiber belt) to synchronize the front and the rear wheels. This makes me wonder: were the results of the first test were actually lower than they should have been given the front wheels were driving both wheels an therefor the system as a whole had greater resistance? This last issue could have been accounted for in the software, but I have not seen any documentation or evidence that such an option exists. In general though, I don’t really have a good answer for any of those questions given how little I know about the systems, software, and/or dynamics involved, but the more I think about it the more I openly doubt the validity of their findings.
The EPA is now going to independently test all diesel passenger cars and light trucks sold in the US., starting with GM. How many people want to guess VW is not the only offender? VW has been on the forefront of diesel technology for decades, so if they were doing it, I can almost promise a few other car companies are soon to be pinched.
The big American 3 won't be touched. Ever here about the GM ignition switch scandal anymore? It's far more dangerous than Dieselgate yet I haven't heard about it in months. It's just how this country works.
Philip Kinneer Very much aware...50+ knowingly killed, $900000 in fines. Don't know if Chrysler is exempt from the law, being owned by Fiat....could be a nice payday for the corrupt politicians there...Point is they will be tested (or so I heard) and I'm sure if anyone could have passed without cheating, it would have been VW
+Wouter Tom Mulder I had a hood fly off my car once (latch froze in the winter after I topped off fluids a few minutes prior). Without the hood, my car gained speed so much more quickly, and that that's when I understood why muscle car drivers drive with hoods off... LOL
+SonOfMarvin Yep, very common on almost every modern car, I can think of some petrol/gasoline cars from 1995 that do this. Only two wheels moving sets an ABS sensor fault (ie. implausible that the undriven wheels aren't sending speed data) Traction control deactivates, and you'll have limited power.
so much technology and they dont know how to turn off ESP ??? They should turn that off to make the second test, ofcourse the car went in "safe mode" it know the rear wheels are stopped and should be turning!
+SonOfMarvin the car wouldnt of made a full pass if traction control was intervening.. if it was it wouldnt of allowed the car to go over like 20mph wide open.. ever go WOT in a car on snow w/ TC on where spinning is 100% guaranteed ? it doesnt allow it to slowly go all the way thru the rev range but pulls power out of it until a certain amount of slip is allowed..
The 140 hp rating from VW is flywheel horsepower - not wheel horsepower. If that car is putting 138 hp to the wheels, that means its putting out about 160 hp to the flywheel. Maybe the official rating was based on the running the car in the test program and the real world owners got to enjoy more power. When in test mode the car is also looking for specific temperature, barometric pressure, and humidity levels, so we can't be too sure anything actually changed in your test.
+Todd Wilson I'm pretty sure they do underrate them. Look at every Audi. The S4 is rated at 333 HP but it performs like a 400+ HP car and it easily outperformed the similarly powered BMW 335i. The S7 makes 420 HP but despite weighting more than BMW 650i and having 25 less HP and way less torque, it's still faster than BMW by a lot. The Audi S8 is rated at 520HP and it's a huge car. How can something that big and heavy possibly do 0-60 in 3.5 seconds with just 520HP? Every reviewer has said that Audi's are underrated when it comes to HP.
+Jay Trock Exactly. And the turbo is VNT, so unless someone does the same test with a Porsche Turbo, this altitude adjustment explains why VW software baselines engine output. This same car needs to be on a dyno in Los Angeles near sea level. The thin air and forced induction with a vnt are why baseline exists, because these cars are adaptive to altitude, ambient air temperature, and fuel.
All this proves is the car can't be Dyno tested with the front wheels only b/c the computer thinks there's a problem with the rear wheels. If possible test it on the Dyno spinning all wheels while doing an emissions test.
I have a mk5 Jetta 2.0 TDI and I kid you not, on highway drives (keeping 80 to 90 kmph) I have managed 3.6 L/100 KM (over 62 mpg US). I don't care what the EPA found, A car that fuel efficient on daily driving should not have been demonised like this. Long live the 2.0 TDi.
This is a tough one. The ECU contains many fuel maps and we can't be sure it was in cheat mode without simultaneously testing NOX emissions. It could very well have been using a ABS fault limp mode fuel map when it did not see a tone ring signal from the real wheel spin sensors.
has that shop never worked on a modern car? the TCS kicked in and put the car in limp mode. this is why it had "less power" -- you guys need to test it again with TCS disabled.
+Andrew Saturn Not limp mode. Limp mode would reduce power substantially. If the difference is like 20% that's not limp mode. I've driven hundreds of cars, trucks and what not. Limp mode is VERY noticeable. The car barely wants to do anything. Let alone run a dyno test.
+youtubasoarus did you see all of the flashing lights on the dash? that's limp mode or at least some sort of "error mode" switched on from the ECU/TCU finding a fault somewhere.
+T Ritchie Yeah....that written guarantee is not going to happen...in any lifetime. If you own one with the fix, keep it to the slow lane so you don't get run over by a Yugo.
Brian Reilly Yeah,If I owned one I'd be afraid the fix would kill it. Where I live we don't have emissions testing so I'd probably try and keep it like that if I could!
My 13 Golf TDi was exceedingly profitable. I decided to sell mine back to VW(even though I felt it was clean enough[literally at 58000 miles the tailpipe was still as clean as it was the day I drove it off the lot]) VW paid off my loan, which was around $9000 and gave me almost $12000 cash. I told my wife, even if I drove it until the wheels fell off, I'd never get that out of it. I still drive a VW but it is a 2.5 5cyl gasser. Not my choice car, but it's paid for and still looks awesome.
I kind of want to buy one of these now; not because I like the car, but because the idea of driving around a giant middle finger to the EPA makes me smile.
+ER B (hondaftw1234) And what about all the other gases that are produced? NOx isn't the only thing that's produced you know. And another fun fact: modern direct injection petrol engines produce more soot than modern diesels with DPF - soon even the petrol engines will be required to have a DPF.
hell no they don't pollute as much. American V8 out there running is going to pollute more then that TDI sitting in the service bay. +Toni Hell yeah yeah but the TDI catches all the soot in the intake so it don't need that shit anyways for that
During emissions testing, the wheels move but the steering wheel doesn't. Under normal driving the steering wheel oscillates. That was the reported 'trigger' for the deception, not FWD vs AWD motion. I love that you did the dyno test, but I am not sure a dyno test would see a difference. The issue is regeneration of the lean NOX trap right? And under WOT as on a dyno that cycle might not run in either case. To test it you would need to test steady-state with no steering vibration vs steady state with some steering vibration or similar to see how the engine controls changed. What you should see is when the NOX trap regeneration is active the engine goes too rich in order to pass fuel through to burn in the NOX trap and clear the trap. When the test is by-passed does the NOX trap simply go un-regenerated? So when the trap is being regenerated properly the engine would run too rich periodically, worsening fuel economy (due to the fuel being splashed into the NOX trap and burned) and drive quality.
My 2010 tdi is still running strong 125k miles, and when I start it up no smoke, I get 38-41 miles town/highway miles everything stock I chose to keep my car because I like it and it runs great, it sucks they got caught up in some sort of scandal, but its a great car I still love it. thanks V-dub !
Ok, your entire premise of tricking the car into thinking it's being emissions tested is false. Your entire second dyno run is flawed. Your theory, experiment and results are flawed as a result.To those who don't know. ABS and TRACTION/STABILITY control systems work using sensors and tone rings at all 4 wheels, brakes and engine power. When the rpm's of one or more of the wheels increase or decrease too fast, or one or more wheels have a large enough speed differential compared to the others, it triggers ABS, TRACTION and STABILITY control. This is what actually happens to your wheels when you are locking up the tires coming to a stop, spinning them wildly while accelerating, or spinning out of control/fishtailing while driving. Differences in wheel RPMs. The computers monitor all wheel speeds and will apply brake pressure to individual wheels, and/or limit/decrease engine output in an attempt to bring the car back under control. You do your second dyno test on a "2 wheel dyno" in an attempt to activate the software that modifies the engine systems that affect the emissions.The traction control light comes on (amber). The abs light comes on (amber). The brake warning light comes on(red). This is the source of your problems, and is a result of the flawed hypothesis as to how to activate the emissions control mode.Here's the breakdown:In the video @ 4:13 "allright, we've got the car set up in 2 wheel drive mode here"no such thing on the car. You must mean that you have the dyno set up in 2 wheel drive mode. "now it looks like we're getting an error on the car" as the traction control light flashes amber on the dash.That's no error. The rear wheels are stationary, while the front ones are moving. The TCS/ESC believes that conditions are slippery, caused by the difference of wheel speeds between front and rear. The amber light means that condtions are slippery and TCS/ESC is active and attempting to correct things. Amber means caution and information, not an error. Errors are red. "it knows we are in a different mode, and I cannot accelerate"The computer is interpreting sensor outputs as slippery conditions. Brake pressure is being applied and the engine is possibly derating as the ECU attempts to correct the condition it interprets the car is in."now it looks like it shut off abs"No, the ABS light is amber, meaning ABS is active and trying to correct things because of the wheel speed differences. "brake is flashing" (red)This is a genuine error reading. The TCS/ABS/SC is doing all it can to correct the massive differences in wheel speeds it is sensing and nothing is working. Because it is not working, the system interprets it as a braking fault. It believes either the brakes are faulty, or that the sensor inputs are faulty, hence the red "get me checked NOW" light.I have no idea why the TPMS amber light comes on, but it has to be a misinterpretation of sensor info by the TCS/ESC/ABS systems.Besides all this with an automatic transmission, unless you have the ability to lock the trans into one gear and prevent it from downshifting, your dyno results will be horribly inaccurate. Period. The only thing this video shows is that you cannot activate the emissions test mode of the car by simply putting it onto a 2 wheel dyno. I suspect the only way to activate it is via software, hooking right up to the ECU/ECM.I truly cannot believe that a group of people who are supposedly knowledgeable about cars would put a video like this out and state it as truth. You pretty much destroy every shred of credibility you may have with it.
+Roger Burtnick TPMS light more than likely came on as VW's use wheel speed sensors to sense low air pressure in the tires. Thus when a wheels is spinning slower or faster than the rest it notifies the driver. With that said, if two are not spinning....
+eastender74 to get rid of the errors possibly, as long as they aren't integrated too much into the control systems causing the car to not run at all. and still would not have activated the emissions testing mode.
That's not a lot of lost power, speaking as someone who doesn't have such a car, however the fuel consumption is speculated to increase more significantly at the same time. I wonder how much that fact would affect car owners.
A friend recently purchased a Passat TDI just a week before this whole mess started. He loves, it and tells me. his car will NEVER see a VW Service Dept. again. " They can keep their warranty". He will maintain it himself and fix anything that goes wrong with the car. I guess he does not want anyone trying to update, retrofit or fix the software in his car now.
This is all an EPA ploy to get rid of all 4 cylinder high mileage diesel cars. They have been bad mouthing diesels since the 1980's. VW was starting to make some inroads and educating the American consumers when this whole thing happened. I hope VW survives this, it is going to be tough, selling cars for $25,000 then having to pay $35,000+ in fines for each! Look what happened to the price of their stock, and if you try to trade in any VW product, even the gas powered models you will take a hit also. I wish them luck!
Just saw the news: VW announced it will recall and update the software in about 11 million of their diesel cars in the US, starting January and expect to conclude in December 2016.
+SonOfMarvin Lol exactly, the only difference is that it is not as environment friendly as people thought. But then again, I doubt any body even gives two shits about emissions. I know I wouldn't.
Leofred2000 Yes but there's no way you're going to have to pay for anything because it's not your fault. Either VW fixes the car or buys it back, owners won't have a worthless car. They can sue VW claiming they they bought the car because of it's HP and Torque and because of VW's fraud they lost a lot of HP and Torque and VW would be forced to reimburse the owners.
The VW is thinking that the car is on icy road when you drive on two wheels " the car is in different mode i do n't know what it is...I wonder what that flashing sign of the car on the curvy road means! "..The car computer probably reduced the power for safety reasons!
There are a few people who will buy these vehicles and modify them for tons of power with no concern to NOx emissions because they live in free states. 45 MPG and lovely driving. Look how many older TDIs are still on the road? You think a 2003 VW TDI with a VNT 17 upgrade, race pipe running a Malone tune and Bosio 764s is cleaner? Reliable 180 HP and 330 ft lbs of torque. That is tire smoking torque in 3rd gear. The issue is NOx. And NOx is over rated as the Sunday Hypothesis shows ground level smog is more a sign of Isoprene from TREES than NOx from tailpipes.
My tuned 335d is at 365hp/595tq at the wheels on stock turbos. It will break the tires free at speed through the first few gears on wide sport tires. Diesel cars are amazing to drive when modded. Used BMW 335D's have to be the best value for getting into the performance diesel scene. You can get them already tuned and close to 400RWHP for less than 15K.
I have a question though. Look at the mess of a motor the BMW N63 TT V8 is. The motor uses special piston rings that were meant for less friction but ended up allowing too much oil past them so the engine burned oil. The motor also runs so hot the turbos use oil and the engine ends up consuming more to the point that when they're floored they smoke. I'm sure it's releasing bad emissions into the atmosphere so why isn't that a problem too?
The worst part is that because of the buy back it devalues the cars still on the road. Big headache trying to get rid of it. 5-6 grand negative the last time I checked.
There's so much wrong with this video and their "findings." The traction control light obviously starts to flash and do its safety precautions by placing the vehicle in limp-mode reducing power/performance/throttle response when placed on the dyno's in it's 2WD mode. I believe you can't turn traction control off on these cars. Oh and the whole horsepower claims!? These genius' don't seem to know the difference between Horsepower at the wheels and horsepower at the crank. What a waste.
Thanks for comment. You seem so sure about our findings and video being "wrong" and yet how sure are you about the ability to turn of traction control on this car. We would greatly appreciate it if you got your facts right before you call this video wrong. Feel free to google it. Thanks
+The Fast Lane Car Let me get this straight, you did a google search, found articles about VW's defeat device which tricks the "EPA's emission software tests", took a Jetta TDI to a Tuner Shop, did some dyno pulls to "emulate an emissions test", clearly showed us that the vehicle was entering LIMP MODE as a result of extreme traction control failure while being on a 2WD Dyno and came up with your hypothesis conclusion? And I need to get my facts straight? You guys nailed it. The only thing this video proves is that VW's Limp Mode decreases engine performance in order to safely get a vehicle to a stop. And yes, there is NO traction control OFF button on that 2011 VW TDI. Great reporting!
+The Fast Lane Car Seriously, take down the video. It proves that your assumptions are wrong and you don't know much about cars. You can't do this by the seat of your pants. It's way more technical than just simply hypothesizing that "oh, let's run the car on a 4 wheel dyno". This video is getting you clicks, but is entirely faulty in experimental design and conclusions.
+Ej Icon Don't worry, this channel is a joke, the "Reviewers" have no actual idea about any of the cars that they are "reviewing". All of the retards on this channel are unprofessional and stupid, especially that guy, Nathan Adlen.
The Fast Lane Car I know this is late by two years...just stumbled on this video. Per at least the California BAR Smog Test Manual, a vehicle can’t be tested on a 2WD dyno if traction control can’t be turned off. (Acceleration Simulation Mode). Hence all of the warning lights because the car is assuming there is major malfunctions. For the car model tested at least, it seems to be invalid. The manual directs the Two Speed Idle test instead. The only way to test that is to hook up smog equipment, sniffer in the tailpipe and on an AWD dyno. Reference: page 12, Section 1.2.1 www.bar.ca.gov/pdf/Smog_Check_Manual_ENG_2013.pdf and also 2 years experience doing smog testing for CA
Really no. The EPA spilled 1 MILLION GALLONS of toxic sludge into the Animas river. Yet we are worried about 500,000 Jettas producing 20% more NOx. Environmental "protection" agency my arse. Should be named the EDA. Environmental destruction agency.
It could be 40x more but that doesn't quite measure up to 1 MILLION GALLONS of toxic waste in a river. People in the Navajo Indian reserve that depended on that river for irrigation and as a water source are now screwed.
Philip Kinneer Both sides are wrong. Dumping toxic waste into a river does not justify being able to cheat on emissions. Same would be true if it was the other way around.
I would have liked to see the result of these 2 kind of dyno tests on 1 or 2 more vehicles. Not VW, but other brand, just to know how the dyno react with a "correct" car. I also would be curious to see the results on a TDI that would have had the recall and the modification done.
I may, at times, be critical of the USA, but when it comes to investigative reporting you're up there with the best. Well done, TFL, as you follow in the footsteps of The Washington Post, Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein.
Sorry guys, but the truth is you know NOTHING about engine electronics! All you did was create a situation where the car thinks its rear ABS sensors have gone broken which in turn set the engine ECU into limp home mode (which has nothing to do with emissions test mode). Stupid new cars have all their ECU's connected to each other. Your test is stupid and only proves that engine ECU-s have 2 different maps when everything is OK and when in limp home mode. You've discovered the hot water...
Jaybee agreed. even in emission mode, it makes the factory numbers. tfl failed to convey that factory quotes crank numbers and they are quoting wheel numbers
Dieselgate is probably the dumbest thing I've heard all day. Get over your little TFL car self and grow up a little. Everyone makes mistakes. They admitted to their mistake and apologized. MOVE ON!
+Abandoned TN It wasn't a mistake!! VW wanted higher torque/hp numbers (helps with sales) + didn't want to de-tune the car to pass emissions tests. VW got caught with their hands in the strudel.
I'm glad i don't own one of these cars but i know several people who do own them and everyone of them is happy with their TDI diesel I do own a diesel vehicle though ,, mine is a 1983 nissan 720 truck with a 2.5 liter turbo diesel and i love it , i get awesome fuel mileage and so far i have had no trouble with it ,, and it has nearly 900,000 miles
this has more faults in it than a vw it self. sorry but sea level corrections is bullshit. because a turbo driven car has almost always the same performance at sea level and at 1000meters aboven sea level. the diffrent number is one measured at the wheels, the higher number is the performance at the crankshaft. my car has 115hp at the wheels and that becomes roufly 138hp from the enigne. The diffrents is the lost in my drivetrain. next to this vw has done software a version for emission and when you drive it, it has software b version. so in this test you can't get the results whit software a version, because it is not there. the diffrents in power loss is just because there are faults stored on the computers in the car. Out of safety the car does not give 100% performance. in my opinion, everything about this video is wrong. also for drivers whit a vw there is no problem to sell the car. the only people that will get problems is vw itself.
+BoomerE30 Diesel engines rely on compression for a source of ignition (no spark plugs), thus they have higher compression ratios than their gasoline counterparts. High compression raises torque in engines (gas or diesel) and that can increase with turbocharging. Those torque figures stated are realistic for a Diesel engine.
Diesels get far worse fuel economy with epa added parts. So we are burning more fuel to get where we are going. How is that good for the environment? Plus people buy DEF in plastic jugs. So we have millions of plastic jugs getting thrown away and we're using more fuel. Thanks epa!
Back in March I bought a 2013 TDI Jetta with 34k miles, the recall performed, and have additional FACTORY warranty. Drove for a few months and was impressed but not ecstatic with the vehicle. Tried a K&N filter, helped some but again not overwhelmed. Found a good deal on a racechip (German tuning company) that was plug and play, thought oh what the heck...... WOW, what a difference, transformed to what I imagine the pre-recall car was like!!! now shes a keeper. www.racechip.us/shop/vw/golf-vi-2008-to-2013/2-0-tdi-1968ccm-140hp-103kw-236lb-ft.html
Sorry guys, but this test is absolute garbage. The "switch" that toggles programming between test mode and normal mode is a lot more complicated than you think, and everything that you did on that dyno was done in normal mode. It is impossible to get a full-power dyno run in emissions test mode because full throttle will immediately kick the computer back to normal mode. In order to stay in emissions test mode, coolant temperature must be at a certain point at engine start, engine run-time must be within a certain range, steering wheel angle and acceleration sensors much be within a certain range (zero), barometric pressure must match that in the EPA's specific test conditions, engine acceleration cannot exceed 300 RPM per second, and throttle application must be within a certain range (those defined by the EPA emissions test). I suggest you update your findings so that reporters and news outlets don't continue quoting this farce as fact.
Thanks TFLC! Great job! As a former TDI owner I feel for the enthusiastic community that loves the brand. My ex Jetta TDI drove great but everything else was falling apart. Now that I'm hearing all these issues with the engine I fell sorry for the guy that bought my car. keep the good work! Peace
defame the diesel engine again and promote electrics. the tdis have been famed for getting 50+ mpg but US automakers can't compete, destroy the competition
+civicsr2cool you could look at it like that, or accept that VW did something terrible. they destroyed themselves and probably a good chunk of the diesel industry.
Romulus It wasn’t VW it was Bosch and a few VW employees who were in on it. Other manufacturers did the same some with Bosch some not and didn’t get fined even %1 as bad as VW. Someone in the government had it out for VW to punish them much worse than others and talk about only them in the news right after becoming number 1 car manufacturer of the world.
I see there's a bit of misunderstanding going on about this. There's absolutely nothing wrong with the car. It's not even really a "dirty" car...it's just not as "clean" as the manufacturer has told the government it should be.
+youtubasoarus I dont think these cars are gonna make much of a difference, there's all these factories make 10x the pollution, and the EPA dosent say shit about that ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
People seem to think that these VW's can tell they're being emissions tested by turning a switch on or off, or because the computer can tell the vehicle is not being driven but the RPM's are fluctuating. These vehicles have very sophisticated engine management systems, the control modules have a lot of processing power. They can tell when a diagnostic device is plugged into the OBD2 port because the scanner has to initiate communication with the module. The ECM can see the additional data on the CAN bus and goes into a 'Clean running" mode. When the scanner is unplugged, the module detects the additional data is no longer present on the CAN bus and goes back into normal running mode. VW pulled a fast one on us but they must have known they would get caught eventually.
+matt k One uncle owned 3 Rabbits, 1 was old-school diesel, ran like tanks until it rained (all 3 would get wet fuse boxes and randomly die on the side of the road)... I drove a '91 Passat for two days (loved it, but the electronic tranny was shot and half the electrical system kept shorting out)... I knew a guy with an '85 Jetta, tranny went and the headlight switches burned out every few months, none of the dash gauges worked... I did a lot of work on an '87 Jetta while working at a "buy here, cry here" dealer, replaced the ENTIRE brake system from booster to the wheels (new booster, master cylinder, lines & hoses, calipers & wheel cylinders, pads, shoes, drums, rotors, literally everything) and still the brakes would usually drag randomly (it did run awesomely at 378,000 miles, he was the 7th owner, last 3 owners babied the slipping first-to-second shift). A friend of mine bought an '01 Passat used, brought it back within two weeks because the heated seats, gauge cluster lights, power driver seat, and high beams didn't work. Driver side window kept coming off the track, and the window was extremely slow (dying motor). The tranny SLAMMED from 1st to 2nd, I had to teach her how to use the slap shift so she didn't get permanent whiplash. Another friend bought a used '99 Jetta, the tranny was of course shot, but randomly in the middle of the night, nobody near the car, the doors would unlock, windows would roll down, sunroof would open - problem with the driver door lock since all those "features" can be done by using the key in that door. Then, he lost all headlight and DRL function except for high beams. A week later, the ignition lock decided it wasn't going to turn anymore. The final straw for him was when he came outside to go to work one morning and found his airbags deployed while it was parked overnight - no body damage. I feel safer driving my mother's tin-can Sentra with it's metal-shard Takata airbag than in a VW after all I've seen. Don't get me wrong, through - I would love to own a Rabbit Pickup! A diesel Rabbit Pickup would be even better!
+Andy Hicks wow I have 9 Volkswagens around me regularly and none have electrical problems like those. None have transmission problems but of course they're all manual. I know the older automatics are trash but I'd never drive an auto anyway.
00:21 "or do we just like a worthless vehicle on our hands". Dumb!! Because the EPA has different standards for diesels vs their gasoline powered counterparts these vehicles are probaly cleaner than gasoline. Go look at the tailpipes respectively. VW's "cheating" actually gave US a better product. Why is no one pointing the finger at the EPA for ridiculous, absurd laws that the rest of the world does not adhere to? You can get certain diesel models everywhere in the world except the US. EPA is all about politics and MONEY!!!!! and not about our well being regarding health or financial. If I still had one of these "recall" vehicles I would throw the recall notice in the garbage as soon as I got it.
Someone tested an Opel diesel at 85mph cruise simulation and it emitted triple the limit for Euro6 emissions. However that would still easily meet Euro 4 requirements as that is 4 times as lenient. So the cars are still pretty clean, just 5 years or 2 Euro standards behind what they claim.
well, in your test, you didn't actually disable traction control. so, when only 2 wheels were turning at low rev's, traction was kicking in which caused the power disparity.
I drive a GLI and I know for fact that when you have an alarm in the dash (check engine, steering warning, ABS. etc) the power and torque is reduced. something like a safety mode.
Any way to tell how much emissions are being emitted while on the road? I'm just wondering as I can't imagine it's more than a diesel full-sized truck that is legal?
I rented one of these on relay rides and liked it enough to want to buy one when I returned home.....between that time, dieselgate was revealed. I don't know the validity of this test but I would've guessed the drop in power would be much more significant. But maybe it's true as BMW and Mercedes still have diesel cars that perform respectably.
Detecting an emissions test is as easy as comparing wheel speed sensor readings from the front wheels vs the rear wheels then de tuning the injector mapping.
I can confirm these results by my experience. The car notably loses low rev torque when WV "emission fix" map is installed instead of original one. They did correct job with original map, but this "fixed" one is garbage. Even bigger problem is that new map produces 3x more soot and fills DPF that much faster, and also clogges EGR at that much faster pace. Fortunatelly... there is a fix to that, too.
not to mention, the fwd setup should net more whp since less power is lost due to not having to move a shaft and two more tires.... making the change even that much more
i have a 2015 golf with the urea tank and despite the software "turning off" the emissions systems. The Urea tank still gets empty about every other oil change. So I don't believe that the system is in fact completely off except when on a dyno. If that was the case wouldn't I hardly ever have to refill the Urea tank? also curious about having the "fix" done on my car and then simply getting a tune on my car afterwards to help bump up the hp and Torque to what I would be more happy with?
I do emission testing on future diesel engines as a job. All cars have some degree of the VW methodology usually just a few points in the map are different to change the NOx emissions. (ever notice those flat spots?) However VW really took the biscuit here with 2 distinct maps. It's actually really good for the customer, with the road map you get better response and lower fuel & urea consumption. But you still pay the dyno map rates for vehicle tax. I find a lot of the media is really misleading, they tend to assume CO2 & 'emissions' are one in the same but in reality the CO2 emissions are less just the NOx is higher.
I own a new VW diesel in Canada and VW mailed me an offer for 1000 dollars CAD to sort this issue out. I accepted their offer but i have not got the money yet. I expect the money to come eventually.The car is illegal according to the environmental laws but i can still register my car normally so this whole scandal doesn't really matter in the long run. These cars won't get fixed and this whole thing will be forgotten.
Did it occur to you guys that the car was in a limp mode because it was confused about traction because the rear wheels weren't moving? No looking at the fuel trim, air:Fuel ratio? Emissions system voltages? Try it with traction control off, in 4 wheel mode and 2 wheel mode and see what happens
Do the exact same test with a matching gasser model. I think the findings you came up with were not exactly specific to "the car thinks it's being emissions tested." You do that to any car with ESP/ASR/TCS and you will see a difference in delivered power.
This vid is totally bogus. It goes to show you how little these guys know about doing a controlled experiment. I am only commenting here in the hope that people will stop posting the link to this everywhere. Despite what they think, the ECM is most definitely not in clean mode. Not taking NOx readings is a huge blind spot. If they cannot confirm that the car puts out different NOx levels as they change their setup between dyno and road modes, they could be measuring any number of unknown parameters, except the cheat-mode algorithm. There is a huge hole in their method of comparing the results from 4-wheel dyno mode to 2-wheel dyno mode, on a FWD car. As with most hardware and software systems, there is most likely a way to rig up the ECU and the car so that it switches to either dirty mode while on a dyno, or to clean mode while being driven on the road. Discovering that won't be done by some shop that doesn't have intimate and deep knowledge of modern cars, their systems, and how the software and hardware play together. Disclaimer: I am an engineer, and owner of Audis and VWs which I maintain completely on my own from day one. EDIT: All the faulty hypotheses and assumptions are from TFLcar and stated by Andre Smirnov, not the dyno shop (The emissions shop manager also seems to lack the expertise about traction control systems): 1:27-1:30 - "we had a suspicion" - but a suspicion doesn't mean you are correct 3:15 - 3:27 - "the car thinks it's on the road" - that is mere speculation with no proof to back that up 4:20 - 4:47 - "I would think that whatever it's done now, it's switched off into different mode" - jumping into conclusions, due to lack of knowledge 7:30 - "passed with flying colors on visual particulate emissions" - NOx emissions are the issue, and they ARE very different from particulate emissions.
been a while since i watched tflcar... since when did andre speak english let alone host?! always remembered the russian-english conversations between him and roman lol
Completely irrelevant for most state inspection stations which don't have dynos. So you simply proved that 4 wheel drive has more torque than 2 wheel drive - brilliant.
I worked for an agricultural supply business. We sourced anodized farm gates from China but sold them as made in USA.
We got caught out.
The local agri-newspaper referred to it as gate-gate.
tdi's are probably still better for the environment than any suv.
+Matt Smith What about TDI in an SUV? Like the Touareg or the Tiguan :D
+Jean V Touraeg V10 TDI
+Matt Smith take in into acount that in europe 80% of SUV's are Diesel...
and 10 years old shitty fabia owns them on every hill on snow :D:D:D:D
Yes, especially if the TDI has LNT+SCR catalysts and no defeat device, because then you combine low NOx with low CO2. The problem is not diesel, the problem is cheating in emission tests.
Is America really worried about the pollution generated by 3 & 4 Cylinder engines ???
you got to be kidding me!!!
+niceguy60 I am sure VW was being targeted because Obama is a globalist who uses the environment to force companies to get carbon credits in the Chicago Carbon Exchange, in which he is a stake holder for setting it up for it's primary owners, Al Gore and Maurice Strong.
He did that with his Executive Order with coal power plants. The only ones that stayed open were GE's, which it was proven he got a payoff, as it was proven they bought a shit ton of carbon credits from the CCX.
TheSportCompact they are all in bed with each other to shaft everyone else
OnkarrSingh The Democrats tend to be more the globalists. There are Republican ones, like the Bush clan and McCain. The difference is, there are less of them on the right, but they may also look out for other's interests that aren't part of the globalists.
No, America is not worried. Just the liberal media and a EPA that's out of control with power.
I bought a 15 tdi sportwagen and a 13 tdi Toureag this year. Long live the Diesel.
if not you can refuel with veggi oil
Which one do you like more?
@@BornToBeFamed Touareg FTW - I love my 2012 Touareg TDI (we also own a 2012 VW Jetta TDI - no issues, great car)
They are great cars! You can pick these up used at a really great price.
I got a mk4 tdi
You know what's VW real fault? They were getting too much fuel economy. 50 mpg diesels, even with higher no2 emissions, are less contaminant than hybrids and the fracking required to feed our huge SUV's.
this!
+SalveMonesvol I have a Jetta TDI and a Prius. The TDI averages around 39 MPG and the Prius around 55 MPG. I love the diesel's torque but the fuel economy is not even close. At all. Also, if you look it up, the Jetta TDI produces 0.04 PPM NOx while the Prius only 0.003 PPM NOx. That's over ten time less NOx emissions. And this is under testing conditions where the TDI engine "cheats" and produces less NOx emissions than in the real world. Diesel technology is great but don't present it as something it is not.
+Tamás Madarász First of all you must drive your TDI with your foot to the floor at all times, my 2013 TDI averages 45mpg, secondly Theres a reason that your Prius doesn't create as much NOx as a TDI, because gasoline engines don't really produce a lot of NOx to begin with. Gasoline and Diesel fuel burn in very different ways and while they produce the same gases, they produce in different ways and wildly different amounts. I can almost guarantee that 90% of the people talking about NOx emissions right now didn't even know it existed until a few weeks ago.
+Tamás Madarász in Europe practically everybody uses Less than 5L/100km IN THE CITY with vw's small diesel cars. The difference might reside in the rpm ranges you are used to. These engines like an open throttle at very low rpm. Always use the highest gear you can and shift before 2.000 rpm. I know it sounds boring and slow, but that's how you get good consumption. Maybe in America that driving style would make people anxious and honk at you, I ignore it.
+Tamás Madarász Prius does 85mpg with normal driving and 75 with me
Let me state, that my Jetta TDI has been a fantastic vehicle and because of the RIDICULOUS EPA standards, we will no longer have these torque laden, high performance, reliable, quiet, no smoke, 45 MPG vehicles again. Some are complaining, but who cares about the little bit of delay in receiving our much higher than value compensation. We all benefited from this situation with many years and miles of useage, only to be rewarded with virtually all of our expense of ownership back to us. RIP TDI...
Yeah you will go get a 1.5 tune better power and MPG delete EGR during tune to remove check engine light
There's definitely smoke. It's called nitrogen dioxide, and it's literally poison. In high enough concentration it will kill you like chlorine gas. The same type of people complaining about EGR and the EPA complained about taking lead out of gas. Despite the fact that we poisoned a generation of Americans just so a manufacturers could spend a little less money.
What's the point of adding "gate" at the end of every scandal? Why not just call it a scandal?
Because TFL Car is trying to fit in with the rest and trying to be popular. Not working too well...
+Nott Mynaem The "gate" usage in American English was created after watergate scandal(which is the actual name of the building).
Common for people to use gate at the end ever since Nixon and Watergate.
Well. We did not invent the name. But this is what most refer to it as. So we want it to be searchable.
+The Fast Lane Car ignore that stupid person who made that comment
I say props to VW, emissions regulation of diesel cars is a load of nonsense.
+Car Nut Move to Shanghai and find out what happens when NOx is unregulated.
+Car Nut Ever driven behind an old diesel dump truck?
fatboy19831 I drive behind diesel road trains and old Land Cruisers everyday.
+Car Nut Hows that hacking cough of yours getting on ? What did the doctor say ?
+Car Nut Australia is a small country with very low density obviously you will not have "an issue"
While I appreciate your attempt here, I am afraid your results are not valid; as VW's software is smarter than that. To begin with I don't think you put it in the proper dyno calibration model; as I understand that disables the traction control from triggering. (With older Golf R's you had to take the car through a sequence of steps to enable a dyno mode that disabled four wheel drive, but I am not sure how it works on the TDIs.) Also, you did not match the EPA's actual test, and I believe the software is specifically looking for those conditions to enable the "cheat". (Look up FTP-75, HWFET, SFTPUS 06, SFTP SC03.) I know for the newer vehicles CARB ran the phase 2 portion of the FTP on a loop and were able to detect that VW had tuned DEF dosing to result in a proper emissions output at the start of the test, but would reduce it in time to the point that emissions were uncontrolled. My guess is that older cars use a similar method and are looking for specific characteristics mirroring the actual EPA test as opposed to a straight dyno run, and that the decreased performance you saw was simply a result of the car going into a failsafe mode since traction control and abs were not functioning properly.
+Andrew Price I think you're absolutely correct. This is an interesting test for sure, but I don't think the 2nd dyno pull was a valid test.
Troy Strain Well unfortunately I am not much of authority in this area either; as otherwise I could tell you how to enable the proper car mode and provide greater detail with regards to differences between TFL’s testing and that actually used by the EPA. As a TDI owner who also has an engineering background I have been greatly concerned and curious about the specifics of this case, and accordingly taken something of a special interest as of late in any relevant technical documentation and/or qualified mass media publications (primarily Consumer Reports in the case of the latter) relating both to the EPA’s testing procedures and Volkswagen’s means for avoiding compliance. It is based on information derived from that research that I raised the objections cited above rather than from any personal experience in the field however.
That said, based on my technical background and tangential understanding of the subject, I am relatively comfortable with the legitimacy and accuracy of those aforementioned assertions; as to the best of my knowledge they are in accordance with any and all documentation on the topic. It does not help that in the past when covering material to which my personal and professional experience is more directly related: TFL has repeatedly shown something of a bias towards producing attention grabbing populist videos that attempt to mimic some sort of scientific authority but that in all actuality have very little credibility in terms of methodology, procedures, and/or standards.
Basically, I just wanted to make it clear on what authority I was speaking as opposed to having my words somewhat blindly lauded as some sort of definitive source of information. (No offence intended with that last statement. I just don't want to spread misinformation if I can help it.)
Troy Strain I could be wrong, but I don't think they would have the kind of equipment. The EPA does its testing at the National Vehicle Fuel & Emissions Laboratory (NVFEL) in Ann Arbor Michigan, and their systems and approach seems to be extremely specific to the particular types of tests they are responsible for administering. For example, as opposed to the more conventional eddy current type dynamometers like the one used in this production, the EPA uses a more dedicated compound dynamometer that is explicitly designed with emissions applications in mind.
As such it is more complicated/expensive and requires more cooling and control systems, but allows the operator(s) greater control over the vehicle being tested; as it can better simulate load conditions, road surfaces, braking, and other normal driving variables. Additionally these systems have specific options integrated into their control software that meet the required guidelines governmentally regulated emissions testing that either can be used to either control a vehicle’s throttle/braking directly via electronic interface (most likely OBDII) or provide technicians with on screen guidance for a vehicle’ operation and management; as is needed in the case of test cars equipped with manual a transmission. The precision with which these types of systems operate is the reason that VW could code their ECU's software to detect when it was being tested, and is in part why I think that TFL’s attempt at replicating the power output of the vehicle during testing ultimately failed in its intended objective.
I will include a link to a video that shows an example of this kind of dynamometer, more specifically a “HORIBA ATS VULCAN Chassis Dynamometer”, in a proceeding post; as I am not sure if comments with links are blocked or require approval. (If they are, you can search for the quoted text above on RUclips and find the video I am referring to.)
Due to the size and cost associated with this equipment (which is anywhere in the neighborhood of .5 to 1.5 million dollars based on the figures I have seen) you are probably not going to find such a system in any facilities that are not specifically owned by a vehicle manufacturer or run by a government agency; as they are the only groups that generally have a need for those system. More to that point it doesn’t seem like most universities with, even those with well-established automotive engineering and development programs, have access to such equipment, and therefore they use the EPA’s NVFEL facilities for that purpose for certain eco oriented design competitions and challenges.
+Andrew Price Great comments, the power curve on the 2nd dyno run clearly shows a lot of dips and spikes compared to the first. I would bet that the shop owner explained this to them and they just chose to not include that segment in the video, for obvious reasons. As you said much more eloquently, TFL is pure clickbait psuedo-science... which is a shame, since they seem to have quite an operating budget and access to lots of great vehicles.
doctor zaius Thank you. The kind words are appreciated. It is always nice to know that someone enjoys reading through my overly verbose drivel… even in spite of my longwinded nature :).
As for your comments: I am not sure what to think about the whole situation with TFL and this particular video. While part of me would say that the technicians administering that test would have to realize that their results were not valid, another part of me wonders if they even knew what they were trying to replicate and how different the two tests really were. To be honest before this became a major concern for me and my car I had no idea about the specifics of the EPA’s emissions testing procedures/protocols, and so it is entirely possible that both the staff at TFL and Tobz Performance were equally oblivious to those details as well.
In fact in continuing to research this topic this morning I realized that I had some of my facts regarding differences in dynamometer types wrong, and so I had to go back and rewrite some of the sections in my earlier post relating to that. So with that in mind I would say it could happen to anyone, and I am not ready to rush to judgement and say that either TFL or Tobz knowingly produced a video with inaccurate results. That said, I think they should have had some inkling that their testing was not valid based on how the car’s anti-lock braking and traction control systems behaved…. But then again I (clearly) don’t spend that much time dealing with dynos: so perhaps those issues are not that uncommon when testing a car.
I did actually go back and watch the video again, and I think you got one thing wrong though in your viewing. You mentioned one line on the graph having a lot of dips and spikes, and I think you are referring to the black line at the top of the readout? I have no idea what that line relates to, but the red lines signify horsepower and the blue torque; with solid lines representing the first run, and dashed the second. They really did not explain this well in the video, and so I actually had to rip it and go frame by frame in premiere to realize this myself. Regardless, both seem relatively smooth and progressive to me.
I will say that a lot of people don’t understand how a car’s power is derived, and I think that misunderstanding plays a part in how the data was presented in this video. More specifically most people tend to think of horsepower and torque as two separate measurements when really they are interrelated units that represent torsional power. That is why if you ask most people, even car enthusiasts, to explain the difference between horsepower and torque to you, they will generally struggle to come up with any sort of concrete answer. Usually they will just end up rambling on with some really long complicated response that refers to top-end and low-end power, when the real answer is that time is the only difference between the two. Torque and horsepower (in automotive applications at least) both measure the amount of twisting force being applied to the wheels. The only real difference is that horsepower is sustained twisting force over a set interval, whereas torque is that force at a particular point in time.
This is where having some understanding of the engineering based calculations involved really helps; as to me at least it is a really easy relationship to understand if you know the equation behind it. More specifically, to calculate horsepower in automotive applications you take a vehicle’s torque, multiply that by RPMs (which is where time comes in), and then divide that value by 5252. Or if you prefer (TQ*RPMs)/5252 = HP. (This is a simplified equation, but it works.) This is why when you look at a car’s torque and power curve on a dynamometer readout horsepower usually exceeds the torque value at around 5200 RPMs (newer TDI’s are an exception to this rule due to how their turbo and control systems work), and it is also why diesel engines always have more torque than horsepower; as they redline at around 5000 rpm before the multiplier in the numerator can exceed the value of the denominator.
This is important to understand in that it helps to explains to some why the car in this video exhibits a greater differential in terms of peak torque output (32lb/ft) when compared to the rather minimal difference in terms of horsepower (2hp according to the readout). Like I said before it is possible the car went into a failsafe mode because the ECU’s TCS and ABS system were not responding properly, however once pushed the driver may be able to override this mode and restore full power; as the ECU may assume that the car is operating normally at that point, and the fault is actually with its sensors. Given that peak torque on that motor is supposed to come in at 1750 RPM and 4000RPM for HP: that could account for that difference; as the engine was still operating in a failsafe mode at the point that peak torque would have been achieved, and then normalized later in the power band. (Their results showed peak performance at 2500RPM and 3500RPM for torque/horsepower respectively, but this could relate to differences in altitude and air density as well.)
That said, I do have some questions regarding this test and its results.
1) The person controlling the car said he had to “ease into it” so it did not down shift, and so I wonder if that could be another reason that the torque was lower; as potentially it took longer for boost to build up in the system.
2) Why did they not disable the TCS and try running the test in that mode for sake of comparison?
3) While the dyno they used (MD-AWD-500 to be exact) seems to have a fairly expansive feature-set given its more common nature, unlike the EPA’s compound dynamometer which has independent electric motors for each axle theirs uses a direct mechanical linkage (more specifically an aramid fiber belt) to synchronize the front and the rear wheels. This makes me wonder: were the results of the first test were actually lower than they should have been given the front wheels were driving both wheels an therefor the system as a whole had greater resistance?
This last issue could have been accounted for in the software, but I have not seen any documentation or evidence that such an option exists. In general though, I don’t really have a good answer for any of those questions given how little I know about the systems, software, and/or dynamics involved, but the more I think about it the more I openly doubt the validity of their findings.
The EPA is now going to independently test all diesel passenger cars and light trucks sold in the US., starting with GM. How many people want to guess VW is not the only offender? VW has been on the forefront of diesel technology for decades, so if they were doing it, I can almost promise a few other car companies are soon to be pinched.
The big American 3 won't be touched. Ever here about the GM ignition switch scandal anymore? It's far more dangerous than Dieselgate yet I haven't heard about it in months. It's just how this country works.
Philip Kinneer
Very much aware...50+ knowingly killed, $900000 in fines. Don't know if Chrysler is exempt from the law, being owned by Fiat....could be a nice payday for the corrupt politicians there...Point is they will be tested (or so I heard) and I'm sure if anyone could have passed without cheating, it would have been VW
+brian meister yeah i think all of them do some thing or other like this. shit's gonna hit the fan
+Philip Kinneer Murica Fuck yeah I'll stick with my Cummins.
VW sucks ass Hot Wheels builds better engines.
"Daily situation" driving with the hood open 😂
Lol
+Wouter Tom Mulder I do that all the time.
+Wouter Tom Mulder seems like it doesnt matter for the cars brain :D
+Wouter Tom Mulder I had a hood fly off my car once (latch froze in the winter after I topped off fluids a few minutes prior). Without the hood, my car gained speed so much more quickly, and that that's when I understood why muscle car drivers drive with hoods off... LOL
+Wouter Tom Mulder Roadkill does it, so why not?
Test 2 was being stopped by Traction Control...
+SonOfMarvin agreed this test means nothing. Traction control changed the results.
+SonOfMarvin Yep, very common on almost every modern car, I can think of some petrol/gasoline cars from 1995 that do this. Only two wheels moving sets an ABS sensor fault (ie. implausible that the undriven wheels aren't sending speed data) Traction control deactivates, and you'll have limited power.
+SonOfMarvin I'm glad someone else said it. How the hell did nobody in that "shop" figure that out?
so much technology and they dont know how to turn off ESP ??? They should turn that off to make the second test, ofcourse the car went in "safe mode" it know the rear wheels are stopped and should be turning!
+SonOfMarvin the car wouldnt of made a full pass if traction control was intervening.. if it was it wouldnt of allowed the car to go over like 20mph wide open.. ever go WOT in a car on snow w/ TC on where spinning is 100% guaranteed ? it doesnt allow it to slowly go all the way thru the rev range but pulls power out of it until a certain amount of slip is allowed..
The 140 hp rating from VW is flywheel horsepower - not wheel horsepower. If that car is putting 138 hp to the wheels, that means its putting out about 160 hp to the flywheel. Maybe the official rating was based on the running the car in the test program and the real world owners got to enjoy more power.
When in test mode the car is also looking for specific temperature, barometric pressure, and humidity levels, so we can't be too sure anything actually changed in your test.
+Todd Wilson Yep most vw's are rated at wheel horsepower rather than engine hp.
+Callum Curtis No. That would be illegal. Unless you mean VW is underrating their engines.
+Todd Wilson I'm pretty sure they do underrate them. Look at every Audi. The S4 is rated at 333 HP but it performs like a 400+ HP car and it easily outperformed the similarly powered BMW 335i. The S7 makes 420 HP but despite weighting more than BMW 650i and having 25 less HP and way less torque, it's still faster than BMW by a lot. The Audi S8 is rated at 520HP and it's a huge car. How can something that big and heavy possibly do 0-60 in 3.5 seconds with just 520HP? Every reviewer has said that Audi's are underrated when it comes to HP.
+Jay Trock They didn't say that. They said corrected for elevation. The note flashed on the screen at 8:12 also read 138.5 WHP.
+Jay Trock Exactly. And the turbo is VNT, so unless someone does the same test with a Porsche Turbo, this altitude adjustment explains why VW software baselines engine output. This same car needs to be on a dyno in Los Angeles near sea level. The thin air and forced induction with a vnt are why baseline exists, because these cars are adaptive to altitude, ambient air temperature, and fuel.
I love my TDI !
99slacker999999999 me too
Is it because it thinks for itself
It's incredible how people keep defending bullshitters even after they got busted.
99slacker999999999 meeee tooo but my ac is out 😭😭
@@hrgiyzueghe broke ass nigga
All this proves is the car can't be Dyno tested with the front wheels only b/c the computer thinks there's a problem with the rear wheels. If possible test it on the Dyno spinning all wheels while doing an emissions test.
+mlcjr82 or just disable all traction control systems, genius.
Agreed, I think other cars should also run a demo with all wheels spinning, some cars probably don't like having only the front wheels spinning.
+mlcjr82 they`r dumb, to make the 2nd test they should turn off ESP ....
+AmigaMANpt Most cars you can't turn off ESP easily. Traction Control doesn't equal ESP, they are two different systems.
For that, on all cars in group with ESP MK60C1 when dyno testing, you must pull out fuse (4 and 25) from E-Box...
I have a mk5 Jetta 2.0 TDI and I kid you not, on highway drives (keeping 80 to 90 kmph) I have managed 3.6 L/100 KM (over 62 mpg US). I don't care what the EPA found, A car that fuel efficient on daily driving should not have been demonised like this. Long live the 2.0 TDi.
This is a tough one. The ECU contains many fuel maps and we can't be sure it was in cheat mode without simultaneously testing NOX emissions. It could very well have been using a ABS fault limp mode fuel map when it did not see a tone ring signal from the real wheel spin sensors.
It's a big deal for gov, but for consumer... It's amazing
has that shop never worked on a modern car? the TCS kicked in and put the car in limp mode. this is why it had "less power" -- you guys need to test it again with TCS disabled.
+Andrew Saturn Not limp mode. Limp mode would reduce power substantially. If the difference is like 20% that's not limp mode. I've driven hundreds of cars, trucks and what not. Limp mode is VERY noticeable. The car barely wants to do anything. Let alone run a dyno test.
+youtubasoarus did you see all of the flashing lights on the dash? that's limp mode or at least some sort of "error mode" switched on from the ECU/TCU finding a fault somewhere.
This car might become a collectors item! If I owned one I would want a written guarantee that the fix don't hurt performance in anyway.
+T Ritchie Yeah....that written guarantee is not going to happen...in any lifetime. If you own one with the fix, keep it to the slow lane so you don't get run over by a Yugo.
Brian Reilly
Yeah,If I owned one I'd be afraid the fix would kill it. Where I live we don't have emissions testing so I'd probably try and keep it like that if I could!
"painfully.....stock." LOL awesome
Yeah hope he got it tuned whilst he was there 😂
My 13 Golf TDi was exceedingly profitable. I decided to sell mine back to VW(even though I felt it was clean enough[literally at 58000 miles the tailpipe was still as clean as it was the day I drove it off the lot]) VW paid off my loan, which was around $9000 and gave me almost $12000 cash. I told my wife, even if I drove it until the wheels fell off, I'd never get that out of it. I still drive a VW but it is a 2.5 5cyl gasser. Not my choice car, but it's paid for and still looks awesome.
Update after the fix: mileage is about 40-45 mpg. Acceleration is about the same. Bank account +$5000.
I kind of want to buy one of these now; not because I like the car, but because the idea of driving around a giant middle finger to the EPA makes me smile.
Mpg are good. Owners will keep their cars. Still they don´t polute more then an american V8.
You're clueless. A TDI does pollute more NOx emissions than an American V8, hence why this is a problem!
+ER B (hondaftw1234) And what about all the other gases that are produced? NOx isn't the only thing that's produced you know. And another fun fact: modern direct injection petrol engines produce more soot than modern diesels with DPF - soon even the petrol engines will be required to have a DPF.
hell no they don't pollute as much. American V8 out there running is going to pollute more then that TDI sitting in the service bay.
+Toni Hell yeah yeah but the TDI catches all the soot in the intake so it don't need that shit anyways for that
The Cheating device is actually just the program running the engine computer. There is no special device, just software
During emissions testing, the wheels move but the steering wheel doesn't. Under normal driving the steering wheel oscillates. That was the reported 'trigger' for the deception, not FWD vs AWD motion. I love that you did the dyno test, but I am not sure a dyno test would see a difference. The issue is regeneration of the lean NOX trap right? And under WOT as on a dyno that cycle might not run in either case. To test it you would need to test steady-state with no steering vibration vs steady state with some steering vibration or similar to see how the engine controls changed. What you should see is when the NOX trap regeneration is active the engine goes too rich in order to pass fuel through to burn in the NOX trap and clear the trap. When the test is by-passed does the NOX trap simply go un-regenerated? So when the trap is being regenerated properly the engine would run too rich periodically, worsening fuel economy (due to the fuel being splashed into the NOX trap and burned) and drive quality.
My 2010 tdi is still running strong 125k miles, and when I start it up no smoke, I get 38-41 miles town/highway miles everything stock I chose to keep my car because I like it and it runs great, it sucks they got caught up in some sort of scandal, but its a great car I still love it. thanks V-dub !
car still runs good?
Ok, your entire premise of tricking the car into thinking it's being emissions tested is false. Your entire second dyno run is flawed. Your theory, experiment and results are flawed as a result.To those who don't know. ABS and TRACTION/STABILITY control systems work using sensors and tone rings at all 4 wheels, brakes and engine power. When the rpm's of one or more of the wheels increase or decrease too fast, or one or more wheels have a large enough speed differential compared to the others, it triggers ABS, TRACTION and STABILITY control. This is what actually happens to your wheels when you are locking up the tires coming to a stop, spinning them wildly while accelerating, or spinning out of control/fishtailing while driving. Differences in wheel RPMs. The computers monitor all wheel speeds and will apply brake pressure to individual wheels, and/or limit/decrease engine output in an attempt to bring the car back under control.
You do your second dyno test on a "2 wheel dyno" in an attempt to activate the software that modifies the engine systems that affect the emissions.The traction control light comes on (amber). The abs light comes on (amber). The brake warning light comes on(red). This is the source of your problems, and is a result of the flawed hypothesis as to how to activate the emissions control mode.Here's the breakdown:In the video @ 4:13 "allright, we've got the car set up in 2 wheel drive mode here"no such thing on the car. You must mean that you have the dyno set up in 2 wheel drive mode. "now it looks like we're getting an error on the car" as the traction control light flashes amber on the dash.That's no error. The rear wheels are stationary, while the front ones are moving. The TCS/ESC believes that conditions are slippery, caused by the difference of wheel speeds between front and rear. The amber light means that condtions are slippery and TCS/ESC is active and attempting to correct things. Amber means caution and information, not an error. Errors are red. "it knows we are in a different mode, and I cannot accelerate"The computer is interpreting sensor outputs as slippery conditions. Brake pressure is being applied and the engine is possibly derating as the ECU attempts to correct the condition it interprets the car is in."now it looks like it shut off abs"No, the ABS light is amber, meaning ABS is active and trying to correct things because of the wheel speed differences. "brake is flashing" (red)This is a genuine error reading. The TCS/ABS/SC is doing all it can to correct the massive differences in wheel speeds it is sensing and nothing is working. Because it is not working, the system interprets it as a braking fault. It believes either the brakes are faulty, or that the sensor inputs are faulty, hence the red "get me checked NOW" light.I have no idea why the TPMS amber light comes on, but it has to be a misinterpretation of sensor info by the TCS/ESC/ABS systems.Besides all this with an automatic transmission, unless you have the ability to lock the trans into one gear and prevent it from downshifting, your dyno results will be horribly inaccurate. Period. The only thing this video shows is that you cannot activate the emissions test mode of the car by simply putting it onto a 2 wheel dyno. I suspect the only way to activate it is via software, hooking right up to the ECU/ECM.I truly cannot believe that a group of people who are supposedly knowledgeable about cars would put a video like this out and state it as truth. You pretty much destroy every shred of credibility you may have with it.
+Roger Burtnick TPMS light more than likely came on as VW's use wheel speed sensors to sense low air pressure in the tires. Thus when a wheels is spinning slower or faster than the rest it notifies the driver. With that said, if two are not spinning....
oh ok. didn't know the wheel sensors on them monitored tire pressure as well. that explains it then.
+Roger Burtnick They could have simply pulled the fuses for all of these systems.
+eastender74 to get rid of the errors possibly, as long as they aren't integrated too much into the control systems causing the car to not run at all. and still would not have activated the emissions testing mode.
That's not a lot of lost power, speaking as someone who doesn't have such a car, however the fuel consumption is speculated to increase more significantly at the same time. I wonder how much that fact would affect car owners.
A friend recently purchased a Passat TDI just a week before this whole mess started.
He loves, it and tells me. his car will NEVER see a VW Service Dept. again. " They can keep their warranty". He will maintain it himself and fix anything that goes wrong with the car.
I guess he does not want anyone trying to update, retrofit or fix the software in his car now.
+Riberto Rivero, Jr. passat isn't included in this. little silly that he doesn't know that
Really? How come a local VW Dealer tells me he can't sell any new or used diesels?
the passat has the urea injection system that negates the NOx, the jetta, golf, a3 and beetle dont have the system
This is all an EPA ploy to get rid of all 4 cylinder high mileage diesel cars.
They have been bad mouthing diesels since the 1980's. VW was starting to make some inroads and educating the American consumers when this whole thing happened.
I hope VW survives this, it is going to be tough, selling cars for $25,000 then having to pay $35,000+ in fines for each!
Look what happened to the price of their stock, and if you try to trade in any VW product, even the gas powered models you will take a hit also.
I wish them luck!
Just saw the news:
VW announced it will recall and update the software in about 11 million of their diesel cars in the US, starting January and expect to conclude in December 2016.
2003 jetta wagon tdi with stick- close to 600000 km, going strong, no issues, 50 mpg
i just love it.
I'd still drive it.. anyone have one you dont want anymore? I'll give you $20 for it lol
+SonOfMarvin You aren't allowed to... It can't pass registration..
+headcas620 Yeah Diesel vehicles where i live have no emissions tests :)
+SonOfMarvin Lol exactly, the only difference is that it is not as environment friendly as people thought. But then again, I doubt any body even gives two shits about emissions. I know I wouldn't.
+Rizwan Javed Those who needs to follow them care for them a lot or else you're braking the law and risking to loose your ride.
Leofred2000 Yes but there's no way you're going to have to pay for anything because it's not your fault. Either VW fixes the car or buys it back, owners won't have a worthless car. They can sue VW claiming they they bought the car because of it's HP and Torque and because of VW's fraud they lost a lot of HP and Torque and VW would be forced to reimburse the owners.
The VW is thinking that the car is on icy road when you drive on two wheels " the car is in different mode i do n't know what it is...I wonder what that flashing sign of the car on the curvy road means! "..The car computer probably reduced the power for safety reasons!
I think I am going to buy a Volkswagen Tdi now! Thank you for the review.
There are a few people who will buy these vehicles and modify them for tons of power with no concern to NOx emissions because they live in free states. 45 MPG and lovely driving. Look how many older TDIs are still on the road? You think a 2003 VW TDI with a VNT 17 upgrade, race pipe running a Malone tune and Bosio 764s is cleaner? Reliable 180 HP and 330 ft lbs of torque. That is tire smoking torque in 3rd gear.
The issue is NOx. And NOx is over rated as the Sunday Hypothesis shows ground level smog is more a sign of Isoprene from TREES than NOx from tailpipes.
My tuned 335d is at 365hp/595tq at the wheels on stock turbos. It will break the tires free at speed through the first few gears on wide sport tires. Diesel cars are amazing to drive when modded. Used BMW 335D's have to be the best value for getting into the performance diesel scene. You can get them already tuned and close to 400RWHP for less than 15K.
dont go for the recall, yo shit its gonna get a detuned flash!
And they have to install the injectors for the exhaust fluid and the tank for the exhaust fluid. This is more then just a engine re-flash.
+Angel U and you'll never be able to register your car again
get a perfomance chip
+Zapp Rogerstein if that's so it's basically a half lemon
Angel U yes, hence the huge fucking problem.
I have a question though. Look at the mess of a motor the BMW N63 TT V8 is. The motor uses special piston rings that were meant for less friction but ended up allowing too much oil past them so the engine burned oil. The motor also runs so hot the turbos use oil and the engine ends up consuming more to the point that when they're floored they smoke. I'm sure it's releasing bad emissions into the atmosphere so why isn't that a problem too?
When they finally recall these cars DO NOT TAKE THEM IN !!!!!! you will get a detuned car you will not like...
The word on the street is that you will not be able to register your TDI unless it has been retrofitted with VW's fix.
in that case i would sue VW to take it back cause once it's reflashed it wont be worth a shit..
+abraham gonzalez - Thanks for the info. I'm in the environmentally-correct Nazi state of California where it may be a problem.
+Rob H Depending on DW Red's home state, he may not have a choice.
The worst part is that because of the buy back it devalues the cars still on the road. Big headache trying to get rid of it. 5-6 grand negative the last time I checked.
There's so much wrong with this video and their "findings." The traction control light obviously starts to flash and do its safety precautions by placing the vehicle in limp-mode reducing power/performance/throttle response when placed on the dyno's in it's 2WD mode. I believe you can't turn traction control off on these cars. Oh and the whole horsepower claims!? These genius' don't seem to know the difference between Horsepower at the wheels and horsepower at the crank. What a waste.
Thanks for comment. You seem so sure about our findings and video being "wrong" and yet how sure are you about the ability to turn of traction control on this car. We would greatly appreciate it if you got your facts right before you call this video wrong. Feel free to google it. Thanks
+The Fast Lane Car Let me get this straight, you did a google search,
found articles about VW's defeat device which tricks the "EPA's emission
software tests", took a Jetta TDI to a Tuner Shop, did some dyno pulls
to "emulate an emissions test", clearly showed us that the vehicle was
entering LIMP MODE as a result of extreme traction control failure while being on a 2WD Dyno and came up with your hypothesis conclusion? And I need to get my facts straight? You guys nailed it. The only thing this video proves is that VW's Limp Mode decreases engine performance in order to safely get a vehicle to a stop. And yes, there is NO traction control OFF button on that 2011 VW TDI. Great reporting!
+The Fast Lane Car
Seriously, take down the video. It proves that your assumptions are wrong and you don't know much about cars. You can't do this by the seat of your pants. It's way more technical than just simply hypothesizing that "oh, let's run the car on a 4 wheel dyno".
This video is getting you clicks, but is entirely faulty in experimental design and conclusions.
+Ej Icon Don't worry, this channel is a joke, the "Reviewers" have no actual idea about any of the cars that they are "reviewing". All of the retards on this channel are unprofessional and stupid, especially that guy, Nathan Adlen.
The Fast Lane Car I know this is late by two years...just stumbled on this video. Per at least the California BAR Smog Test Manual, a vehicle can’t be tested on a 2WD dyno if traction control can’t be turned off. (Acceleration Simulation Mode). Hence all of the warning lights because the car is assuming there is major malfunctions.
For the car model tested at least, it seems to be invalid. The manual directs the Two Speed Idle test instead.
The only way to test that is to hook up smog equipment, sniffer in the tailpipe and on an AWD dyno.
Reference: page 12, Section 1.2.1 www.bar.ca.gov/pdf/Smog_Check_Manual_ENG_2013.pdf and also 2 years experience doing smog testing for CA
l personally will be Buying a Volkswagen now, that l know this.
Thank you VW.
I bought one, unfortunately it had gone through the recall, that will change soon though with an exhaust kit and tuner. 😉👍
I have 2, love them.
Stock? Those stickers add up like 420HP per sticker.
Wooow
r/doublewoooosh
Emissions regulations are way out of control. I love VW for what they did, so much so, that my next car will be a VW TDI!
The fact this comes from the land of "rolling coal" and "Prius repellant" stickers is hilarious
So as a German, i have to ask you guys: Are you really pissed of because your Volkswagen produces more emissions?
Really no. The EPA spilled 1 MILLION GALLONS of toxic sludge into the Animas river. Yet we are worried about 500,000 Jettas producing 20% more NOx. Environmental "protection" agency my arse. Should be named the EDA. Environmental destruction agency.
+Philip Kinneer I thought the Jettas produced 40 TIMES more NOx, not 20%...
It could be 40x more but that doesn't quite measure up to 1 MILLION GALLONS of toxic waste in a river. People in the Navajo Indian reserve that depended on that river for irrigation and as a water source are now screwed.
Philip Kinneer Both sides are wrong. Dumping toxic waste into a river does not justify being able to cheat on emissions. Same would be true if it was the other way around.
The less emissions bs on a diesel the better the fuel economy
I would have liked to see the result of these 2 kind of dyno tests on 1 or 2 more vehicles. Not VW, but other brand, just to know how the dyno react with a "correct" car. I also would be curious to see the results on a TDI that would have had the recall and the modification done.
1:43 thats a nice Evo right there.
Lol traction control means its being emissions tested? Durrrppppppp
I may, at times, be critical of the USA, but when it comes to investigative reporting you're up there with the best. Well done, TFL, as you follow in the footsteps of The Washington Post, Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein.
Sorry guys, but the truth is you know NOTHING about engine electronics! All you did was create a situation where the car thinks its rear ABS sensors have gone broken which in turn set the engine ECU into limp home mode (which has nothing to do with emissions test mode). Stupid new cars have all their ECU's connected to each other.
Your test is stupid and only proves that engine ECU-s have 2 different maps when everything is OK and when in limp home mode. You've discovered the hot water...
138 WHP is about 158 flywheel (assuming a 15% loss), pretty damn good for a motor rated at 140 at the flywheel.
Jaybee agreed. even in emission mode, it makes the factory numbers.
tfl failed to convey that factory quotes crank numbers and they are quoting wheel numbers
Dieselgate is probably the dumbest thing I've heard all day. Get over your little TFL car self and grow up a little. Everyone makes mistakes. They admitted to their mistake and apologized. MOVE ON!
+Abandoned TN not a mistake if it was intentional...lmao
+Abandoned TN It wasn't a mistake!! VW wanted higher torque/hp numbers (helps with sales) + didn't want to de-tune the car to pass emissions tests. VW got caught with their hands in the strudel.
+BECAST it was an intentional mistake. They messed up.
+Tully3674 gotta do what ya gotta do
+Abandoned TN VW/Audi fanboy detected :)))
I'm glad i don't own one of these cars but i know several people who do own them and everyone of them is happy with their TDI diesel
I do own a diesel vehicle though ,, mine is a 1983 nissan 720 truck with a 2.5 liter turbo diesel and i love it , i get awesome fuel mileage and so far i have had no trouble with it ,, and it has nearly 900,000 miles
this has more faults in it than a vw it self.
sorry but sea level corrections is bullshit. because a turbo driven car has almost always the same performance at sea level and at 1000meters aboven sea level.
the diffrent number is one measured at the wheels, the higher number is the performance at the crankshaft. my car has 115hp at the wheels and that becomes roufly 138hp from the enigne. The diffrents is the lost in my drivetrain.
next to this vw has done software a version for emission and when you drive it, it has software b version.
so in this test you can't get the results whit software a version, because it is not there.
the diffrents in power loss is just because there are faults stored on the computers in the car. Out of safety the car does not give 100% performance.
in my opinion, everything about this video is wrong.
also for drivers whit a vw there is no problem to sell the car. the only people that will get problems is vw itself.
was criminal what the government and epa did to vw
260 torque? Thats not factory spec!
+BoomerE30 probably 260nm rather than lb/ft
diesel engine have excellent torque output, with the help of the turbo
+the doge excellent based on ratio of tq/hp ratio. that doesnt mean its better. more hp is good.... more tq with less hp is BAD
+BoomerE30 Diesel engines rely on compression for a source of ignition (no spark plugs), thus they have higher compression ratios than their gasoline counterparts. High compression raises torque in engines (gas or diesel) and that can increase with turbocharging. Those torque figures stated are realistic for a Diesel engine.
Diesels get far worse fuel economy with epa added parts. So we are burning more fuel to get where we are going. How is that good for the environment? Plus people buy DEF in plastic jugs. So we have millions of plastic jugs getting thrown away and we're using more fuel. Thanks epa!
HOLLLYYY SHIIITTT THAT RED EVO THOOOOOOO..... @ 1:44
Lol, ricer wing so big you cant open trunk without busting back window!
Back in March I bought a 2013 TDI Jetta with 34k miles, the recall performed, and have additional FACTORY warranty. Drove for a few months and was impressed but not ecstatic with the vehicle. Tried a K&N filter, helped some but again not overwhelmed. Found a good deal on a racechip (German tuning company) that was plug and play, thought oh what the heck...... WOW, what a difference, transformed to what I imagine the pre-recall car was like!!! now shes a keeper. www.racechip.us/shop/vw/golf-vi-2008-to-2013/2-0-tdi-1968ccm-140hp-103kw-236lb-ft.html
Sorry guys, but this test is absolute garbage. The "switch" that toggles programming between test mode and normal mode is a lot more complicated than you think, and everything that you did on that dyno was done in normal mode.
It is impossible to get a full-power dyno run in emissions test mode because full throttle will immediately kick the computer back to normal mode.
In order to stay in emissions test mode, coolant temperature must be at a certain point at engine start, engine run-time must be within a certain range, steering wheel angle and acceleration sensors much be within a certain range (zero), barometric pressure must match that in the EPA's specific test conditions, engine acceleration cannot exceed 300 RPM per second, and throttle application must be within a certain range (those defined by the EPA emissions test).
I suggest you update your findings so that reporters and news outlets don't continue quoting this farce as fact.
Thanks TFLC! Great job!
As a former TDI owner I feel for the enthusiastic community that loves the brand. My ex Jetta TDI drove great but everything else was falling apart. Now that I'm hearing all these issues with the engine I fell sorry for the guy that bought my car.
keep the good work! Peace
All the idiot lights came on so it went into limp mode! All cars do that! I don't think your test is valid.
This was a total government shakedown.
wats the point of this video
defame the diesel engine again and promote electrics. the tdis have been famed for getting 50+ mpg but US automakers can't compete, destroy the competition
+civicsr2cool you could look at it like that, or accept that VW did something terrible. they destroyed themselves and probably a good chunk of the diesel industry.
Romulus It wasn’t VW it was Bosch and a few VW employees who were in on it. Other manufacturers did the same some with Bosch some not and didn’t get fined even %1 as bad as VW. Someone in the government had it out for VW to punish them much worse than others and talk about only them in the news right after becoming number 1 car manufacturer of the world.
I see there's a bit of misunderstanding going on about this. There's absolutely nothing wrong with the car. It's not even really a "dirty" car...it's just not as "clean" as the manufacturer has told the government it should be.
Without measuring emissions, this video proves nothing.
It all boils down to the traction control system and I loved my 2009 Volkswagen Jetta TDI
Who even cares?
You don't get it
+fritjofdittner People who don't want to die of respiratory diseases? Or did you forget acid rain and smog already?
+youtubasoarus I dont think these cars are gonna make much of a difference, there's all these factories make 10x the pollution, and the EPA dosent say shit about that ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
+youtubasoarus Don't forget hurricanes, floods and wildfires.
I care idiot.
I love the journalism, guys. Great video.
did anyone see three mishuishi evos in the video?
People seem to think that these VW's can tell they're being emissions tested by turning a switch on or off, or because the computer can tell the vehicle is not being driven but the RPM's are fluctuating. These vehicles have very sophisticated engine management systems, the control modules have a lot of processing power. They can tell when a diagnostic device is plugged into the OBD2 port because the scanner has to initiate communication with the module. The ECM can see the additional data on the CAN bus and goes into a 'Clean running" mode. When the scanner is unplugged, the module detects the additional data is no longer present on the CAN bus and goes back into normal running mode. VW pulled a fast one on us but they must have known they would get caught eventually.
Well buying a Volkswagen to begin with was your first problem.
+matt k says someone with a Nissan Leaf....
I love my Leaf!
+SlipknotMaggot0526 A Leaf isn't going to be an unreliable, excessively polluting POS.
+matt k One uncle owned 3 Rabbits, 1 was old-school diesel, ran like tanks until it rained (all 3 would get wet fuse boxes and randomly die on the side of the road)... I drove a '91 Passat for two days (loved it, but the electronic tranny was shot and half the electrical system kept shorting out)... I knew a guy with an '85 Jetta, tranny went and the headlight switches burned out every few months, none of the dash gauges worked... I did a lot of work on an '87 Jetta while working at a "buy here, cry here" dealer, replaced the ENTIRE brake system from booster to the wheels (new booster, master cylinder, lines & hoses, calipers & wheel cylinders, pads, shoes, drums, rotors, literally everything) and still the brakes would usually drag randomly (it did run awesomely at 378,000 miles, he was the 7th owner, last 3 owners babied the slipping first-to-second shift). A friend of mine bought an '01 Passat used, brought it back within two weeks because the heated seats, gauge cluster lights, power driver seat, and high beams didn't work. Driver side window kept coming off the track, and the window was extremely slow (dying motor). The tranny SLAMMED from 1st to 2nd, I had to teach her how to use the slap shift so she didn't get permanent whiplash. Another friend bought a used '99 Jetta, the tranny was of course shot, but randomly in the middle of the night, nobody near the car, the doors would unlock, windows would roll down, sunroof would open - problem with the driver door lock since all those "features" can be done by using the key in that door. Then, he lost all headlight and DRL function except for high beams. A week later, the ignition lock decided it wasn't going to turn anymore. The final straw for him was when he came outside to go to work one morning and found his airbags deployed while it was parked overnight - no body damage.
I feel safer driving my mother's tin-can Sentra with it's metal-shard Takata airbag than in a VW after all I've seen.
Don't get me wrong, through - I would love to own a Rabbit Pickup! A diesel Rabbit Pickup would be even better!
+Andy Hicks wow I have 9 Volkswagens around me regularly and none have electrical problems like those. None have transmission problems but of course they're all manual. I know the older automatics are trash but I'd never drive an auto anyway.
Well done, I was curious about the difference. It is about 10%.
00:21 "or do we just like a worthless vehicle on our hands". Dumb!! Because the EPA has different standards for diesels vs their gasoline powered counterparts these vehicles are probaly cleaner than gasoline. Go look at the tailpipes respectively. VW's "cheating" actually gave US a better product. Why is no one pointing the finger at the EPA for ridiculous, absurd laws that the rest of the world does not adhere to? You can get certain diesel models everywhere in the world except the US. EPA is all about politics and MONEY!!!!! and not about our well being regarding health or financial. If I still had one of these "recall" vehicles I would throw the recall notice in the garbage as soon as I got it.
Yup, the tailpipe on my 2012 focus gas has soot on it. My "unfixed jetta" has no soot on the tailpipe.
You "think" that it might be in a different mode now? Very scientific testing!
Someone tested an Opel diesel at 85mph cruise simulation and it emitted triple the limit for Euro6 emissions. However that would still easily meet Euro 4 requirements as that is 4 times as lenient. So the cars are still pretty clean, just 5 years or 2 Euro standards behind what they claim.
This is very interesting information. Thanks TFLcar!
Andre Smirnov, Investigative Reporter. Something new to add on the resume (when you submit it to NBC's Dateline). Good job guys!
+Tully3674 No Andre is Russian and NBC and other western News corp are running Anti Russian Propaganda!
Thank you Volkswagen for making a car for the people and not for the government
well, in your test, you didn't actually disable traction control. so, when only 2 wheels were turning at low rev's, traction was kicking in which caused the power disparity.
I drive a GLI and I know for fact that when you have an alarm in the dash (check engine, steering warning, ABS. etc) the power and torque is reduced. something like a safety mode.
Any way to tell how much emissions are being emitted while on the road? I'm just wondering as I can't imagine it's more than a diesel full-sized truck that is legal?
I rented one of these on relay rides and liked it enough to want to buy one when I returned home.....between that time, dieselgate was revealed. I don't know the validity of this test but I would've guessed the drop in power would be much more significant. But maybe it's true as BMW and Mercedes still have diesel cars that perform respectably.
Detecting an emissions test is as easy as comparing wheel speed sensor readings from the front wheels vs the rear wheels then de tuning the injector mapping.
I can confirm these results by my experience. The car notably loses low rev torque when WV "emission fix" map is installed instead of original one. They did correct job with original map, but this "fixed" one is garbage. Even bigger problem is that new map produces 3x more soot and fills DPF that much faster, and also clogges EGR at that much faster pace. Fortunatelly... there is a fix to that, too.
not to mention, the fwd setup should net more whp since less power is lost due to not having to move a shaft and two more tires.... making the change even that much more
i have a 2015 golf with the urea tank and despite the software "turning off" the emissions systems. The Urea tank still gets empty about every other oil change. So I don't believe that the system is in fact completely off except when on a dyno. If that was the case wouldn't I hardly ever have to refill the Urea tank?
also curious about having the "fix" done on my car and then simply getting a tune on my car afterwards to help bump up the hp and Torque to what I would be more happy with?
I do emission testing on future diesel engines as a job. All cars have some degree of the VW methodology usually just a few points in the map are different to change the NOx emissions. (ever notice those flat spots?) However VW really took the biscuit here with 2 distinct maps.
It's actually really good for the customer, with the road map you get better response and lower fuel & urea consumption. But you still pay the dyno map rates for vehicle tax. I find a lot of the media is really misleading, they tend to assume CO2 & 'emissions' are one in the same but in reality the CO2 emissions are less just the NOx is higher.
Gotta say it's a smart idea and I wish I'd thought of it. If I was a car maker I would have done the same damn thing, the EPA can kiss my ass
I own a new VW diesel in Canada and VW mailed me an offer for 1000 dollars CAD to sort this issue out. I accepted their offer but i have not got the money yet. I expect the money to come eventually.The car is illegal according to the environmental laws but i can still register my car normally so this whole scandal doesn't really matter in the long run. These cars won't get fixed and this whole thing will be forgotten.
No tears when you loss power after the call-back, Go for ABT chip tuning to 205 Bhp and no extra polution.
Did it occur to you guys that the car was in a limp mode because it was confused about traction because the rear wheels weren't moving? No looking at the fuel trim, air:Fuel ratio? Emissions system voltages?
Try it with traction control off, in 4 wheel mode and 2 wheel mode and see what happens
Oil Company Exec " you made a car that gets over 50MPG on the freeway??? Oh no no no no no."
Do the exact same test with a matching gasser model. I think the findings you came up with were not exactly specific to "the car thinks it's being emissions tested." You do that to any car with ESP/ASR/TCS and you will see a difference in delivered power.
This vid is totally bogus. It goes to show you how little these guys know about doing a controlled experiment. I am only commenting here in the hope that people will stop posting the link to this everywhere.
Despite what they think, the ECM is most definitely not in clean mode.
Not taking NOx readings is a huge blind spot. If they cannot confirm that the car puts out different NOx levels as they change their setup between dyno and road modes, they could be measuring any number of unknown parameters, except the cheat-mode algorithm.
There is a huge hole in their method of comparing the results from 4-wheel dyno mode to 2-wheel dyno mode, on a FWD car.
As with most hardware and software systems, there is most likely a way to rig up the ECU and the car so that it switches to either dirty mode while on a dyno, or to clean mode while being driven on the road. Discovering that won't be done by some shop that doesn't have intimate and deep knowledge of modern cars, their systems, and how the software and hardware play together.
Disclaimer: I am an engineer, and owner of Audis and VWs which I maintain completely on my own from day one.
EDIT: All the faulty hypotheses and assumptions are from TFLcar and stated by Andre Smirnov, not the dyno shop (The emissions shop manager also seems to lack the expertise about traction control systems):
1:27-1:30 - "we had a suspicion" - but a suspicion doesn't mean you are correct
3:15 - 3:27 - "the car thinks it's on the road" - that is mere speculation with no proof to back that up
4:20 - 4:47 - "I would think that whatever it's done now, it's switched off into different mode" - jumping into conclusions, due to lack of knowledge
7:30 - "passed with flying colors on visual particulate emissions" - NOx emissions are the issue, and they ARE very different from particulate emissions.
Great idea and test method guys!
been a while since i watched tflcar... since when did andre speak english let alone host?! always remembered the russian-english conversations between him and roman lol
Completely irrelevant for most state inspection stations which don't have dynos. So you simply proved that 4 wheel drive has more torque than 2 wheel drive - brilliant.
Was expecting some big changes but then the results were posted.......big whoop.