New Math for the Sword Brethren with the Twin LC! Remember these numbers is damage in number of wounds per 100 points vs Marines - 9.6 vs Guard - 10.2 vs T6 3+ - 5.8 vs T9 3+ - 5.09
High Marshal Helbrecht + Lieutenant w/ Power Fist and Tannhauser's Bones leading 10man Sword Brethren with Thunderhammers is legitimately a lawnmower on the board.
Great video! Might be a slightly off topic comment so I apologize, but I gotta say I think at this point its best to just embrace the comparison to BGV. The comparison is there for a lot of very solid reasons, and frankly at this point its not going anywhere. - They're very similar positions in the lore as an elite of the elite melee force that will be expected to perform similar tasks in the lore - They're compared in the fluff section of the codex - They're similar in terms of style & IRL appearance - I'd argue BGV are pretty much the most black templarsy models outside of the actual black templars range. - The difference in the role they fill on the tabletop, while significant, isn't nearly as immediately obvious as many other units. They're both units that want to go kick teeth in in melee with a fairly similar range of targets (at least at first glance). Its not like hellblasters vs eradicators where there difference of specialty is really on the nose. The other reason to embrace it is that it is useful. Literally everyone is going to know BGV - so pointing out what they do better and what they do worse is an instant way to dial in where they stand. In fact that's exactly what you did to great effect in this video. Comparisons between two things for the sake of showing how they are different can be just as useful as comparisons to similarity.
Great video, always love these being newish to the hobby and very new to BT. You gents are a font of information on the BT faction. Tried my first PSB unit last night with a Judicar in tow, Popped them into an impulsor but they didn't work out very well against a Beast Snagga heavy orks list, but I will keep experimenting.
My proposed correction to Black Templars index: the datasheet for Sword Brethren should now say "Untercastellan" and the character in the index is now the "Ubercastellan". That's how the Germans would do it, and we like to keep things Teutonic around here!
Great video. Glad to have such an iconic unit as a major player. I still recommend adding a bit at the end of unit videos pitting the unit vs something like a knight, or a unit of bladeguard. Show off your fancy new dice, and show the sword brethren wiping something off the table as a cap to the video.
“How do people compare them to BGV” shows a chart where both units are 0,5 points apart, except for guard… I still believe they are comparable. That is EXACTLY what I was expecting from this video…
@@ImplausibleNature thanks for responding. yeah, but how don’t they compare? Also, bladeguard have native D2. Surely 4++ and D2 is better than giving a character +1D. A
This is why they serve different roles. With the 4++ they excel at standing there and not dying. Vs the PSB excel at killing. Consider this, Helbrecht with sword bros can take his sweep attack and get +1 Damage. Now he has 12 S7 AP 3 D2 attacks, or the Emperor's champ who can swing with 6 damage 4 precision attacks or 10 of his own damage 2 attacks. Those are massive increases in damage output regardless of your target. BGV even when combined with what characters they can take can't come anywhere near that. Hopefully that helps! ~Alex
Just made this comment on your previous video (not important i just thought it was neat.) I would be interested in a vid about the BT combat patrol in terms of the combat patrol gamemode. As well as talking about it and other good space marine value boxes.
The 11 could have been if you buy the character castellan and build 5 sword brothers, so if you didn't have a "Castellan" built for the squad, you don't need to leave a model at home. Also, if you didn't feel like using your crusaders, you could steal their sword brother. I assume the data sheet was written before the leader decision was made and never revised. I would have liked if they did at least make a six man an option, I love the idea of a being able to borrow one person from one squad to the other in a crusade format. Maybe your crusade squad suffers heavy losses and your sword brother is taken in under a castellan in preparation to lead again, while you sideline your detriment ridden crusade squad until you can add a new one
Ten sword brethren with judiciar with the bones = 😊 edit: 2x ten mans with an apothecary + marshal combo also sounds interesting. free strats for multiple armor of contempts/combat interupts/ devout pushes ect.
Pretty solid. Also worth considering a captain in a Gladius detachment to give them Lance for 0CP after charging (and possibly pushing their AP to -3 during Assault Doctrine)
Then use them! They're still very solid and deal a ton of damage. The +1 OC also makes the unit a lot more annoying to deal with. If you REALLY wanna go overboard, could even throw in a Captain and get a free strat a turn, too.
Destroyed vehicle infantry are auto battleshocked and cannot charge specifically. Not usually a problem unless it happens in an overwatch action from your opponent.
A question about Masrhal and Castelan, tho. Do they have 1 less attack, compared to Captain and Lieutenant, due to a bit wider wargear options and -5pts cost or it's just a mistake? As always, great summary, guys!
I'm just going to put it this way, if there is a space marine melee unit out there consistently doing more damage than sword brethren at a more efficient price point, that's a unit to be absolutely terrified of lol.
Here's the thing with the Sword Brethren/BGV comparison. Yes, both units are very similar, fill similar roles in lore, and are the 2 best Primaris melee units in game. But I feel like y'all went too hard on trying to make Sword Bros straight better than BGV, when they fill two different roles and excel at them evenly. It shouldn't be a matter of "take x unit over y because x is better" and should be "x unit is complimented by y unit so take both if you can" in this case Sword Bros are the hammer to the BGV anvil. Want a melee unit that will ctrl/alt/delete what you point it at? Take Sword Bros. Want melee unit that can hold objectives and functions as an objective beat stick? Toss in BGV with a Judiciar
The PSB says this unit gains x and the [leader] rule states the leader and the unit it is attached to are considered a single unit for all rules purposes, besides on destruction abilities
Oh wow, thanks for such a quick response. Thanks, I’m very new to 40k and have only done Star Wars Legion for TT stuff, so it’s a little overwhelming trying to get a good bearing of what is valuable or not trying to start out. All I’ve got is 9th Ed’s black Templars Army Set so far. Love your channel, keep up the great content 😄
I am absolutely glad to do it! Honestly, the Black Templars Combat Patrol is your best bet. And if you can find some Sword Brethren and Gladiators. Thanks for watching! ~Bob~
@@connorjensen9699 Yeah. Bladeguard are in a weird spot where they'd be fun in an impulsor, but you need to waste 33 points to fit a character inside. Meanwhile PSB are just vibing.
@ImplausibleNature fab. 10 of them with HMH in a crusader, whilst the Judicar with 6 BGV, and Grimaldus with a crusader squad feels like the way ahead. Thinking of reivers too as they actually feel usable. Plus VV with JP & SS, and suppressors for fast moving fly boys. What do you think?
thats a bummer. so many of my 1st born are falling by the way side. been playing on and off since 4th with BT, although got side tracked by GKs, IG, IKs and admech along the way. LO
a land raider ? why not a drop pod with Hellbrecht and 9 Swordbrethern ( yeha i know you still pay for ten) but you dnot have to pay the cost for the LR and you can shock them with the new strat at the end of the opponents movement phase. this should be by far saver instat of driving in a LR.
@milomoran582 I just want my attacks to be worth a damn. My miphiston had 6 attacks. Only 1 got through for d3 damage. I rolled a 1. Dante doing 2 damage atleast but with his cost and all the titles he has and feats in the lore, it feels underwhelming as hell.
@@michaelmaddox2536 nah Dante shouldn't be a beast really, and his buffs are still pretty decent. But I remember when mephiston was t6 and s10. Good times
@milomoran582 he's still str 10. Lol Dante abilities in 9th were nice. Now? Not so much. A captain with a jump pack is arguably better. Dante makes enemies take a battle shock test at the start of the fight phase. I find that to be incredibly useless. By the time he do that, I've probably been shot with 2 rounds of overwatch. Lmao 🤣 His plus 1 to charge is solid, though. The plus to hit he gives is meh. Overall, it's not worth 135 points.
Great video as always. Just like to say, no impulsors has been fine for me, until i met the imperial guard no los build, and it wasnt even remotely fun, remotely close, or remotely fair :D.. you lose that match up almost 100 percent of time if you go second
I love listening to you guys, but you're both nuts. SB are good, but they are glass cannons. They have zero durability, and they are too expensive to trade up. You don't want to put a 330 point unit into a 300 point land raider; you're now in 600 points to deliver a unit that's primarily built for killing other space marines and MEQ type models. I see two ways to build: -5 models in an Impulsor with cheap leader of your choice. -10 models with the Primaris Company Champ starting in strategic reserve. You can bring these guys in using rapid ingress and definitely get charge off, or on your own movement phase and get +1 to charge (spending CP to reroll if necessary). Walking them across the field (regardless of size) = dead. Putting 10 man into any type of transport = way too expensive.
That is what I said I recommended -- specifically the 5 man squads with Company Champions in Impulsors. I run two duplicates of that squad to great effect. Apologies if I came off as being serious, but I have never believed that the 10 man unit in a LRC is anything beyond a fun combo. It is certainly not a competitive take. ~Bob~
@@ImplausibleNature No I don't think you were too serious, Bob, and I didn't mean to sound too serious either. I just finished another 5 SB and I absolutely love the models. But I just look at their stats and you basically pay double the cost of a PCS or AssInt and you get +1 wound, +1S, +1 AP (power weapons vs. chainswords). Their damage spike is great but Assault Intercessors can spike damage under the right conditions (obj marker) and PCS get Scout and reroll advances and charges, which while doesn't match SB damage output directly, it does give them consistancy and reliability. I can get 2 crusaders for less than the price of 1 SB and get 10 (TEN) attacks and 4 wounds. I just don't think SB can realistically be called the best SM melee unit when taking into account points. Frankly I think the Assault Squad with Jump Pack beats them out, point for point.
Always happens to marines. The fucking nerf them when they're already mediocre comparatively. 5 for 150 or 11 for 330 you just fucking leave if the army isn't over powered anyway right. Alderi, knights, gsc.... nah leave them alone let's focus on the A/B tier I'm having flash backs of morons trying to argue with me that grimaldus and 3 servitors are worth 13 victory points right. Honestly Sword brethren probably get cut before a 20 man crusader squads if it wasn't for indirect blast that shouldnt exist anyway.
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New Math for the Sword Brethren with the Twin LC! Remember these numbers is damage in number of wounds per 100 points
vs Marines - 9.6
vs Guard - 10.2
vs T6 3+ - 5.8
vs T9 3+ - 5.09
Thank you for all that you do for our faction. I always enjoy being able to watch people who enjoy my army as much as I do.
The golden standard for black Templar content! Y’all rock!
High Marshal Helbrecht + Lieutenant w/ Power Fist and Tannhauser's Bones leading 10man Sword Brethren with Thunderhammers is legitimately a lawnmower on the board.
SB got lightning claws! And Helbrecht and a Castellan can join together now!
Land Raider with Helbrecht and 10 man SB squad sounds like a lot of holy murder joy.
Great video! Might be a slightly off topic comment so I apologize, but I gotta say I think at this point its best to just embrace the comparison to BGV. The comparison is there for a lot of very solid reasons, and frankly at this point its not going anywhere.
- They're very similar positions in the lore as an elite of the elite melee force that will be expected to perform similar tasks in the lore
- They're compared in the fluff section of the codex
- They're similar in terms of style & IRL appearance - I'd argue BGV are pretty much the most black templarsy models outside of the actual black templars range.
- The difference in the role they fill on the tabletop, while significant, isn't nearly as immediately obvious as many other units. They're both units that want to go kick teeth in in melee with a fairly similar range of targets (at least at first glance). Its not like hellblasters vs eradicators where there difference of specialty is really on the nose.
The other reason to embrace it is that it is useful. Literally everyone is going to know BGV - so pointing out what they do better and what they do worse is an instant way to dial in where they stand. In fact that's exactly what you did to great effect in this video. Comparisons between two things for the sake of showing how they are different can be just as useful as comparisons to similarity.
Definitely the best looking - more than enough reason to take them in my book lol
Great video, always love these being newish to the hobby and very new to BT. You gents are a font of information on the BT faction.
Tried my first PSB unit last night with a Judicar in tow, Popped them into an impulsor but they didn't work out very well against a Beast Snagga heavy orks list, but I will keep experimenting.
Wait.does the twin lighting claws still.come in the box?
It sure does, and GW gave us rules back for it too!
My proposed correction to Black Templars index: the datasheet for Sword Brethren should now say "Untercastellan" and the character in the index is now the "Ubercastellan". That's how the Germans would do it, and we like to keep things Teutonic around here!
Great video. Glad to have such an iconic unit as a major player. I still recommend adding a bit at the end of unit videos pitting the unit vs something like a knight, or a unit of bladeguard. Show off your fancy new dice, and show the sword brethren wiping something off the table as a cap to the video.
“How do people compare them to BGV” shows a chart where both units are 0,5 points apart, except for guard… I still believe they are comparable. That is EXACTLY what I was expecting from this video…
5 minutes later: “that’s why they are better than BGV, because they buff their character…” so do BGV…
+1 attack or damage is significantly better for characters than reroll hits of 1, assuming you took that instead the saves rerolls.
~Alex
@@ImplausibleNature thanks for responding. yeah, but how don’t they compare? Also, bladeguard have native D2. Surely 4++ and D2 is better than giving a character +1D. A
This is why they serve different roles. With the 4++ they excel at standing there and not dying. Vs the PSB excel at killing. Consider this, Helbrecht with sword bros can take his sweep attack and get +1 Damage. Now he has 12 S7 AP 3 D2 attacks, or the Emperor's champ who can swing with 6 damage 4 precision attacks or 10 of his own damage 2 attacks. Those are massive increases in damage output regardless of your target. BGV even when combined with what characters they can take can't come anywhere near that. Hopefully that helps!
~Alex
Oh also don't forget PSB got their lightning claws back, which is great with +1 Damage or +1 attack
Just made this comment on your previous video (not important i just thought it was neat.) I would be interested in a vid about the BT combat patrol in terms of the combat patrol gamemode. As well as talking about it and other good space marine value boxes.
I'd like that too. But this is mostly a competitive outlet
The 11 could have been if you buy the character castellan and build 5 sword brothers, so if you didn't have a "Castellan" built for the squad, you don't need to leave a model at home. Also, if you didn't feel like using your crusaders, you could steal their sword brother. I assume the data sheet was written before the leader decision was made and never revised. I would have liked if they did at least make a six man an option, I love the idea of a being able to borrow one person from one squad to the other in a crusade format. Maybe your crusade squad suffers heavy losses and your sword brother is taken in under a castellan in preparation to lead again, while you sideline your detriment ridden crusade squad until you can add a new one
You guys have any black templar battle reports coming up? Would love to see some from real masters of the army
Ten sword brethren with judiciar with the bones = 😊 edit: 2x ten mans with an apothecary + marshal combo also sounds interesting. free strats for multiple armor of contempts/combat interupts/ devout pushes ect.
Was gonna ask in comments if judiciar can lead sword bretheren because I feel like that'd be dumb powerful
What about chaplin, that plus 1 to wound
Pretty solid. Also worth considering a captain in a Gladius detachment to give them Lance for 0CP after charging (and possibly pushing their AP to -3 during Assault Doctrine)
Excellent info
I have 6 bladeguard and a bladeguard ancient for black templars because the bg ancient had *the crusader look* you know?😭
Then use them! They're still very solid and deal a ton of damage. The +1 OC also makes the unit a lot more annoying to deal with. If you REALLY wanna go overboard, could even throw in a Captain and get a free strat a turn, too.
Destroyed vehicle infantry are auto battleshocked and cannot charge specifically.
Not usually a problem unless it happens in an overwatch action from your opponent.
What are your thoughts on 5 Sword Brethren and Helbrecht in an Impulser?
Is the combiweapon an auto-include?
I think so, it's better than a bolt pistol imo
~Alex
A question about Masrhal and Castelan, tho.
Do they have 1 less attack, compared to Captain and Lieutenant, due to a bit wider wargear options and -5pts cost or it's just a mistake?
As always, great summary, guys!
I bring 3 marshalls with 3 sword bretheren, to take maximum benefit from finest hour + extra damage and, if I can, anti-psyker 4+
One of the marshalls is the High Marshall
I'm just going to put it this way, if there is a space marine melee unit out there consistently doing more damage than sword brethren at a more efficient price point, that's a unit to be absolutely terrified of lol.
Here's the thing with the Sword Brethren/BGV comparison. Yes, both units are very similar, fill similar roles in lore, and are the 2 best Primaris melee units in game. But I feel like y'all went too hard on trying to make Sword Bros straight better than BGV, when they fill two different roles and excel at them evenly. It shouldn't be a matter of "take x unit over y because x is better" and should be "x unit is complimented by y unit so take both if you can" in this case Sword Bros are the hammer to the BGV anvil. Want a melee unit that will ctrl/alt/delete what you point it at? Take Sword Bros. Want melee unit that can hold objectives and functions as an objective beat stick? Toss in BGV with a Judiciar
Love the sword, bro.
If only the PCS sword brother had 3 wounds
Ive just been drop podding them with a champion as a death ball
I'm not a fan of drop podding melee units because they can't charge the turn they drop
Just out of curiosity: were the BGV calcs done with their re-roll 1s?
Yes I included that
~Alex
Which Rule says that SB buff a attached Charackter? Thx in advance.
The PSB says this unit gains x and the [leader] rule states the leader and the unit it is attached to are considered a single unit for all rules purposes, besides on destruction abilities
Their ability „vow-sworn bladesmen“ buffs all models in this unit. As the attached character is also part of the unit, he also gets the buff
Do you think the Leviathan box is worth it for Black Templar players?
If you don't care about the rules and cards, then honestly, not in my opinion.
~Bob~
Oh wow, thanks for such a quick response. Thanks, I’m very new to 40k and have only done Star Wars Legion for TT stuff, so it’s a little overwhelming trying to get a good bearing of what is valuable or not trying to start out. All I’ve got is 9th Ed’s black Templars Army Set so far. Love your channel, keep up the great content 😄
I am absolutely glad to do it! Honestly, the Black Templars Combat Patrol is your best bet. And if you can find some Sword Brethren and Gladiators.
Thanks for watching!
~Bob~
I think just the best part of PSB is that they're base 5 instead of base 3, so they're a lot better for dumping buffs on.
seems handy for transport efficiency also
@@connorjensen9699 Yeah. Bladeguard are in a weird spot where they'd be fun in an impulsor, but you need to waste 33 points to fit a character inside. Meanwhile PSB are just vibing.
@@tinker1945 Could add a Captain and an Ancient/Lieutenant to at least have 5 dudes in there I suppose
Can these go in the Crusader now?
They sure can!
@ImplausibleNature fab. 10 of them with HMH in a crusader, whilst the Judicar with 6 BGV, and Grimaldus with a crusader squad feels like the way ahead. Thinking of reivers too as they actually feel usable. Plus VV with JP & SS, and suppressors for fast moving fly boys. What do you think?
I think VV are dead. They really took it on the chin with "heirloom weapons" which are barely better than chainswords
thats a bummer. so many of my 1st born are falling by the way side. been playing on and off since 4th with BT, although got side tracked by GKs, IG, IKs and admech along the way. LO
a land raider ? why not a drop pod with Hellbrecht and 9 Swordbrethern ( yeha i know you still pay for ten) but you dnot have to pay the cost for the LR and you can shock them with the
new strat at the end of the opponents movement phase. this should be by far saver instat of driving in a LR.
Well they will still sit there and get shot for a full turn before you can do anything, so that's not ideal imo for 435 points of a unit.
~Alex
Blood Angels aren't allowed to have 3 dmg on our named units except for Tycho. The model GW doesn't even make anymore. Awesome
Blood angels characters need sweep&strike profiles like bt. No reason why they shouldn't
@milomoran582 I just want my attacks to be worth a damn. My miphiston had 6 attacks. Only 1 got through for d3 damage. I rolled a 1.
Dante doing 2 damage atleast but with his cost and all the titles he has and feats in the lore, it feels underwhelming as hell.
@@michaelmaddox2536 nah Dante shouldn't be a beast really, and his buffs are still pretty decent. But I remember when mephiston was t6 and s10. Good times
@milomoran582 he's still str 10. Lol
Dante abilities in 9th were nice. Now? Not so much. A captain with a jump pack is arguably better.
Dante makes enemies take a battle shock test at the start of the fight phase. I find that to be incredibly useless. By the time he do that, I've probably been shot with 2 rounds of overwatch. Lmao 🤣
His plus 1 to charge is solid, though. The plus to hit he gives is meh. Overall, it's not worth 135 points.
Great video as always. Just like to say, no impulsors has been fine for me, until i met the imperial guard no los build, and it wasnt even remotely fun, remotely close, or remotely fair :D.. you lose that match up almost 100 percent of time if you go second
Sustained+lethal hits and Oath will kill lychguard tank unit. Like 1 of the characters live sometimes. These guys are pure murder.
I love listening to you guys, but you're both nuts. SB are good, but they are glass cannons. They have zero durability, and they are too expensive to trade up. You don't want to put a 330 point unit into a 300 point land raider; you're now in 600 points to deliver a unit that's primarily built for killing other space marines and MEQ type models. I see two ways to build:
-5 models in an Impulsor with cheap leader of your choice.
-10 models with the Primaris Company Champ starting in strategic reserve. You can bring these guys in using rapid ingress and definitely get charge off, or on your own movement phase and get +1 to charge (spending CP to reroll if necessary).
Walking them across the field (regardless of size) = dead.
Putting 10 man into any type of transport = way too expensive.
That is what I said I recommended -- specifically the 5 man squads with Company Champions in Impulsors. I run two duplicates of that squad to great effect. Apologies if I came off as being serious, but I have never believed that the 10 man unit in a LRC is anything beyond a fun combo. It is certainly not a competitive take.
~Bob~
@@ImplausibleNature No I don't think you were too serious, Bob, and I didn't mean to sound too serious either. I just finished another 5 SB and I absolutely love the models. But I just look at their stats and you basically pay double the cost of a PCS or AssInt and you get +1 wound, +1S, +1 AP (power weapons vs. chainswords). Their damage spike is great but Assault Intercessors can spike damage under the right conditions (obj marker) and PCS get Scout and reroll advances and charges, which while doesn't match SB damage output directly, it does give them consistancy and reliability. I can get 2 crusaders for less than the price of 1 SB and get 10 (TEN) attacks and 4 wounds. I just don't think SB can realistically be called the best SM melee unit when taking into account points. Frankly I think the Assault Squad with Jump Pack beats them out, point for point.
Always happens to marines. The fucking nerf them when they're already mediocre comparatively. 5 for 150 or 11 for 330 you just fucking leave if the army isn't over powered anyway right. Alderi, knights, gsc.... nah leave them alone let's focus on the A/B tier I'm having flash backs of morons trying to argue with me that grimaldus and 3 servitors are worth 13 victory points right. Honestly Sword brethren probably get cut before a 20 man crusader squads if it wasn't for indirect blast that shouldnt exist anyway.