A bit late but a vid on the BT combat patrol for the combat patrol game type would be neat. As well as just talking about good value box sets for starting an army.
20 man squads are absolutely nuts, especially with character support. I'm building Grimmy + 20 in nearly every list I build. Watching people's eyes pop out of their heads when I tell them how many attacks I'm rolling is really satisfying. Only downside is the changes to blast mean they will eat a ton of fire.
Big one if there is any clarity. Because our Marshals don't have the Captain keyword, or Helbrecht not having the Chapter Master keyword. Do you think GW will clarify this later so we are able to attach a lieutenant/castellan to our squads? I can understand Helbrecht being a bit to ask for. But atm, the Marshal doesn't have the keyword.
100% agree with the commentary late in the video about taking 20 man squads and all elites. I fell into that trap thinking id be tough enough to weather the shooting, and it did not work AT ALL. I think one 20 man is fine, but then you have to take smaller squads to score points with actions and to give your opponent more decisions to make about what to shoot at
165pts for sword brethren; 160pts for black templars lancer. in the meta right now i think we just stack as much anti tank while leaving room for the 2x twent brick crusaders getting 5+++'s from characters. and on turn 2 just *RUN* at your opponent and dare him to shoot it all. Also i dont believe they're going to patch the castellan joining with helbrect. not without nerfing something. i've rolled out that combat in theory and with both character buffs and high marshall is consistently doing primarch levels of violence. like a lot of violence. wishful thinking, atm i think double marshal with free cp interupt/heoric is just better control and problems for our opponents.
LRC with sword brethren, Grimaldus with 20x crusaders, and a Tbones chaplain with a 10 man squad of THSS terminators tabled a tau far-sight enclaves army in 4 turns
I plan on fielding 3 20 man squads at some point, 1 with Grimaldus and the other 2 flanking up the board with Scout 6, and in a 2k game I'm still left with 1,040 pts (not including Grimaldus, 60 Crusaders are 960 pts).
PCS is even better now as far as I’m concerned: Powerfist > hit on 3+ & 3 attacks per model Chainsword > 5 attacks, can be boosted to AP3 Reroll advance & charge baked in With Grimaldus they are still tough as nails. Today my squad took over 20 wounds from 2 Basilisks one turn, did lose one Marine.
You can’t get -3AP using the Fervent Acclimation CP. it says the entire army must be in that doctrine for the benefit so you must have selected it as your vow at the start
To get to AP 3 on chainswords, you need Grimaldus(one of his abilities you can choose gives an extra AP) , and then you use the Crusaders Wrath strat. Fervent is not required as it none of our vows give AP. ~Alex
I appreciate this video. I'm in the process of learning my playstyle and my battle plan. The PCS has been the one that's tripping me up. They've got several uses, you just have to know what you want them to do ahead of time when you make your list. And you're helping me figure that out. Thx.
I just got into Warhammer and got myself a black templar army box. As I learned the best loadout for the Dreadnought is plasma and little gatling. Is it also still up to date to put power fists on them whenever possible and if not to go with chain swords? As I read the manual and understand the video I would have - Primaris Initate: 3x chain sword, 1x power first, all with bolt pistols - Neophyte: all chain sword and bolt pistoles - one sword bro with power sword Is this right?
You do want either a single initiate or Neophyte with a Bolt rifle/shotgun (either works) so that the unit has the assault rule, which is important for still scoring some action secondaries if you advance. ~Bob~
Ok, so, something to be said for the ranged version of crusaders. That 10 man can rock 2 pyreblasters (STR 5 now) and a pyrepistol. That is quite a bit of auto hitting attacks ON TOP of the bolter shots. Not to mention they are still marines, and if you NEED to charge something they can handle themselves in combat. Also, if you plan your assault right and leave Crusader's Wrath open, you now get the ap -1 as if they had chainswords. These units would also do well to sit back and actually hold objectives while being able to sustain at least some damage. Unlike the 5 mans, who pretty much are obliterated by rather minimal effort, it isn't hard to kill 5 marines (well, a little harder now, but still). The scout move for the ranged guys also means they have a really good chance to actually do damage on turn one, without having to rely on a charge, and they would be perfect to move up with the melee guys and soften the target BEFORE the melee ones charge in, especially if you are only running 10 man melee units.
To be honest, intercessors do this much better than crusaders. Crusaders are hampered by the fact that the neophytes firearm is pretty lackluster with shorter range and 0 AP. The pyreblasters also lost range. As for melee yes you could make them AP 1 but it's not the same. They lose 2 attacks each to do this which is a huge decrease in output and now you are spending CP for the AP. ~Alex
@@ImplausibleNature Well yeah, they lose 2 attacks in melee, but that is because they have more attacks in ranged, so it kind of makes sense. Honestly you probably wouldn't WANT to target this unit with Crusader's Wrath, just that it is an option. This unit is also cheaper than intercessors, and, because of the scout move, the shorter range wouldn't be as big of an issue, besides everyone is pushing for mid board anyway, those weapons are going to be in range NLT turn 2, but you'll 100% have the bolt rifles in range on turn 1. I'd still argue they have their place, and fill voids that intercessors just don't match.
I think they are an example of how flexible our army is compared to others. The only other Space Marine army that can play to different styles with their units and rules are/were Dark Angels in 9th. Will I take PCS? Not right now. Getting all 20 PCS base to base in melee is gonna be a weakness for them imo. Sword Brethren are my go to right now with a Judicar, Emps Champ, and Impulsors
New BT player here. Enjoy the content you put out. Quick clarification where you talked about load outs. You mean PW and Pyre on leader, 7 HBP/CS, 2 HBP/PF?
The Leviathan pack missions mention a lot about units that are "eligible to shoot" performing what we used to call actions. If I have a single bolt rifle in the Crusader squad, my unit is technically eligible to shoot, no? Am I missing something? Not that that is their primary mission... I just really want to find a reason to take bolt rifles sometimes 😅
maybe i am missing something, but why would you need to equip a bolt rifle to be 'eligible to shoot'? do you need to equip a ranged weapon at all and if so wouldn't the pistols be sufficient?
I agree with not taking multiple elite units with the 20 man. I just didn't have enough units to soak up the shooting from my Eldar apt. I still won but that was because he didn't know the new rules as well as I did. Gonna take out the termies and add in some eliminators and intercessors.
How much better is a PCS over regular Assault Intercessors? Same question for Bladeguard v Sword Bretherin. Should I be making the switch on both fronts?!
Crusaders and sword bros are both grossly better than either of those. Also BGV don't have the same role as sword bros, they are best as a take and hold unit ~Alex
You can’t use the CP for fervent acclimation for the 3AP chainswords as it says the entire army has to be in that doctrine. You’d have to have selected it as your vow at the start to get the benefit
Am I the only one who has noticed that initiates with boltrifle and boltpistol only swap out their rifle for the chainswird and heavy bolt pistol? So they are packing a heavy bolt pistol, a chainsword and a regular boltpistol for some extra shooting in close combat.
I'm really happy for the BT players, as they look quite solid right now. I don't have mine painted yet, so can't join in, but it's nice to see. LoL, I started a Tau and Tyranid Army to try and get some built to play some 10th edition games. I know that neither are all that strong in competitive, but I will be playing more chilled games I think. I am quite tempted to just go with a more standard paintjob on them (the triple edge highlight formula on the box art) I did want to try and do a more true black, but I think it's too advanced for me to do as well as I'd like. I really need to practice volumetric highlights on easier colours first. With my Tau I'm doing the white scheme off the new boxes, Infernal Brush broke down the scheme on the boxes (He actually painted them for GW) and they are deceptively simple to paint. It's more or less just a panel line with baneblade brown (small amounts of blazing on some of the white panels for staining) and then where you would normally do edge highlights, you do chips instead with Gorthor brown. I reckon you could speed it right up on the bigger stuff with sponging as well. It just depends how heavy you want to go, the official scheme is very light on the wear, and it looks super-crisp I thought. It's nice, more chilled scheme though to get myself back into the swing of things. It has a few different things on them as well like the cloth pants, so it's not quite all edge highlighting. The black parts and the grey parts are edge highlighted to the max though. I'll have to see if I'm able to do all of that. it does look very time consuming to get it all done up like. Good practice though, I'm sure once you've done all those angles you would be way better at it.
@@ImplausibleNature Thanks a lot. For someone who is new to the hobby and interested in starting BT, this is all very confusing. With the Neophytes and Initiates in this team. Like how many Neophytes need to be in a squad of Crusaders and what should they get equipped with.
Great video, i cant decide which i prefer more, blocks of 20 crusaders with a character or multiple blocks of 10 scout moving to victory.. One question: Why did you say its “easier“ to battleshock a 20 man unit? Not sure i follow..
My current favorite plan is to walk Gimaldus and a 20 man PCS on from Strategic Reserves. Keeps them alive in turn 1 or 2 then you walk in with a 9 inch re-rolling charge with Girmaldus's buffs going.
You can't have both Grimaldus and Castellan at the same in Crusade Squad. Grimaldus has no any keyword like Capitan, Chapter Master or Lieutenant. So it means, that castellan can't no be attached to Grimaldus
No, you can't have more than 2 characters attached to a squad. And, currently, you can't have a Marshal and a castellan as the Marshal lacks the captain keyword. However that should be fixed in the upcoming FAQ later this month ~Alex
After reading Black Templars fluff, I don’t see how you can’t run them. It’s hard to justify taking anything else other than them or sword brethren if you play black Templars. Terminators too, in my head cannon, they’re essentially first born sword brethren that have moved on from just power armor and earned the right to wear terminator armor.
The important question is - how many are too many? I’m thinking like, I dunno…seven Crusader squads? Maybe eight? Ha, trick question! YOU CAN NEVER HAVE TOO MANY PRIMARIS CRUSADER SQUADS! Bwahahahaha!
still annoyed unit of 20 is more than 2 boxes as sword brother in the 10, how do you guys get 20 do you kit bash a model as everything is in boxes worth now so will lose a model from something else
If you bought the BT combat patrol, you can also convert the intercessors in there to have the extra chainswords from the second Crusader Squad box. ~Bob~
The PCS box allows you to build 6 initiates + 4 neophytes or 1 SB + 5 initiaties + 4 neophytes. So two boxes will give you a 20 man. Of course, if you then want to run them as 2 x 10, you would need to kit bash something. Worst case scenario, you buy a Marshall or Castellan and use him as a sword brother.
Must take? Absolutely. For me, its also an important fluffy element, i want my Templars to look like Templars, not generic black space marines.
Are they a must take? Probably not. But I'm still going to fill my army with them just because they look so darn cool!
A bit late but a vid on the BT combat patrol for the combat patrol game type would be neat. As well as just talking about good value box sets for starting an army.
To me, they are THE iconic unit of the BT, and I can't imagine bothering to field BT without taking at least one mob of Crusaders!
the problem is the new deflagration.
20 man squads are absolutely nuts, especially with character support. I'm building Grimmy + 20 in nearly every list I build. Watching people's eyes pop out of their heads when I tell them how many attacks I'm rolling is really satisfying.
Only downside is the changes to blast mean they will eat a ton of fire.
I did an absolute meme with a 20-man squad, together with an Ancient. I proudly declared to my opponent “I am OC 60”
Big one if there is any clarity. Because our Marshals don't have the Captain keyword, or Helbrecht not having the Chapter Master keyword. Do you think GW will clarify this later so we are able to attach a lieutenant/castellan to our squads? I can understand Helbrecht being a bit to ask for. But atm, the Marshal doesn't have the keyword.
Yes both should be corrected in the FAQ later this month
@@ImplausibleNature Hopefully. Keep up the good work guys. Looking forward to getting some dice soon. 👌🎲
Thanks for the great video! I've had a tuff time in 10th with my melee set-up, but you guys give me hope!
100% agree with the commentary late in the video about taking 20 man squads and all elites. I fell into that trap thinking id be tough enough to weather the shooting, and it did not work AT ALL.
I think one 20 man is fine, but then you have to take smaller squads to score points with actions and to give your opponent more decisions to make about what to shoot at
165pts for sword brethren; 160pts for black templars lancer. in the meta right now i think we just stack as much anti tank while leaving room for the 2x twent brick crusaders getting 5+++'s from characters. and on turn 2 just *RUN* at your opponent and dare him to shoot it all. Also i dont believe they're going to patch the castellan joining with helbrect. not without nerfing something. i've rolled out that combat in theory and with both character buffs and high marshall is consistently doing primarch levels of violence. like a lot of violence. wishful thinking, atm i think double marshal with free cp interupt/heoric is just better control and problems for our opponents.
LRC with sword brethren, Grimaldus with 20x crusaders, and a Tbones chaplain with a 10 man squad of THSS terminators tabled a tau far-sight enclaves army in 4 turns
I plan on fielding 3 20 man squads at some point, 1 with Grimaldus and the other 2 flanking up the board with Scout 6, and in a 2k game I'm still left with 1,040 pts (not including Grimaldus, 60 Crusaders are 960 pts).
PCS is even better now as far as I’m concerned:
Powerfist > hit on 3+ & 3 attacks per model
Chainsword > 5 attacks, can be boosted to AP3
Reroll advance & charge baked in
With Grimaldus they are still tough as nails.
Today my squad took over 20 wounds from 2 Basilisks one turn, did lose one Marine.
You can’t get -3AP using the Fervent Acclimation CP. it says the entire army must be in that doctrine for the benefit so you must have selected it as your vow at the start
@@andrewclayton2739 it’s obvious you haven’t even read the rules. 😏
They just don’t get +1S ya ding dong.
To get to AP 3 on chainswords, you need Grimaldus(one of his abilities you can choose gives an extra AP) , and then you use the Crusaders Wrath strat. Fervent is not required as it none of our vows give AP.
~Alex
I appreciate this video. I'm in the process of learning my playstyle and my battle plan. The PCS has been the one that's tripping me up. They've got several uses, you just have to know what you want them to do ahead of time when you make your list. And you're helping me figure that out. Thx.
I just got into Warhammer and got myself a black templar army box. As I learned the best loadout for the Dreadnought is plasma and little gatling. Is it also still up to date to put power fists on them whenever possible and if not to go with chain swords?
As I read the manual and understand the video I would have
- Primaris Initate: 3x chain sword, 1x power first, all with bolt pistols
- Neophyte: all chain sword and bolt pistoles
- one sword bro with power sword
Is this right?
You do want either a single initiate or Neophyte with a Bolt rifle/shotgun (either works) so that the unit has the assault rule, which is important for still scoring some action secondaries if you advance.
~Bob~
Also 2 power Fists per 10, the rest chainswords
~Alex
@@ImplausibleNature wow, thanks, didn't expect answers from the both of you, much appreciated!
Ok, so, something to be said for the ranged version of crusaders. That 10 man can rock 2 pyreblasters (STR 5 now) and a pyrepistol. That is quite a bit of auto hitting attacks ON TOP of the bolter shots. Not to mention they are still marines, and if you NEED to charge something they can handle themselves in combat. Also, if you plan your assault right and leave Crusader's Wrath open, you now get the ap -1 as if they had chainswords.
These units would also do well to sit back and actually hold objectives while being able to sustain at least some damage. Unlike the 5 mans, who pretty much are obliterated by rather minimal effort, it isn't hard to kill 5 marines (well, a little harder now, but still).
The scout move for the ranged guys also means they have a really good chance to actually do damage on turn one, without having to rely on a charge, and they would be perfect to move up with the melee guys and soften the target BEFORE the melee ones charge in, especially if you are only running 10 man melee units.
To be honest, intercessors do this much better than crusaders. Crusaders are hampered by the fact that the neophytes firearm is pretty lackluster with shorter range and 0 AP. The pyreblasters also lost range. As for melee yes you could make them AP 1 but it's not the same. They lose 2 attacks each to do this which is a huge decrease in output and now you are spending CP for the AP.
~Alex
@@ImplausibleNature Well yeah, they lose 2 attacks in melee, but that is because they have more attacks in ranged, so it kind of makes sense. Honestly you probably wouldn't WANT to target this unit with Crusader's Wrath, just that it is an option.
This unit is also cheaper than intercessors, and, because of the scout move, the shorter range wouldn't be as big of an issue, besides everyone is pushing for mid board anyway, those weapons are going to be in range NLT turn 2, but you'll 100% have the bolt rifles in range on turn 1.
I'd still argue they have their place, and fill voids that intercessors just don't match.
Would swordbrethern ability to increase damage of weapon of models in their unit buff Helbrecht
Yes, the Sword Brethren ability buffs characters attached to them.
~Bob~
@@ImplausibleNature thanks
I think they are an example of how flexible our army is compared to others. The only other Space Marine army that can play to different styles with their units and rules are/were Dark Angels in 9th.
Will I take PCS? Not right now. Getting all 20 PCS base to base in melee is gonna be a weakness for them imo. Sword Brethren are my go to right now with a Judicar, Emps Champ, and Impulsors
Why not both? Also I've tested it and it's pretty easy to get 20 guys in melee with a 5 man squad of 32mm bases.
~Alex
Great video, fellas.
New BT player here. Enjoy the content you put out. Quick clarification where you talked about load outs. You mean PW and Pyre on leader, 7 HBP/CS, 2 HBP/PF?
Correct!
~Bob~
Short answer: Yes. Long Answer: Yes, Yes, Yes.
The Leviathan pack missions mention a lot about units that are "eligible to shoot" performing what we used to call actions. If I have a single bolt rifle in the Crusader squad, my unit is technically eligible to shoot, no? Am I missing something?
Not that that is their primary mission... I just really want to find a reason to take bolt rifles sometimes 😅
You are correct! We were just discussing this one the discord the other day!
maybe i am missing something, but why would you need to equip a bolt rifle to be 'eligible to shoot'? do you need to equip a ranged weapon at all and if so wouldn't the pistols be sufficient?
@@_mrln I didn't specify, but I meant one could advance and still be eligible to shoot because bolt rifles are assault.
@@shassa90ah, thank you for clarifying. i wasn't aware of the bolt rifle profile - good idea!
I agree with not taking multiple elite units with the 20 man. I just didn't have enough units to soak up the shooting from my Eldar apt. I still won but that was because he didn't know the new rules as well as I did. Gonna take out the termies and add in some eliminators and intercessors.
How much better is a PCS over regular Assault Intercessors?
Same question for Bladeguard v Sword Bretherin. Should I be making the switch on both fronts?!
Crusaders and sword bros are both grossly better than either of those. Also BGV don't have the same role as sword bros, they are best as a take and hold unit
~Alex
Good job I have 60 of them :) Also beat a knights list with them in 9th.
You can’t use the CP for fervent acclimation for the 3AP chainswords as it says the entire army has to be in that doctrine. You’d have to have selected it as your vow at the start to get the benefit
Of course! Apologies that we didn't make that more clear.
~Bob~
Am I the only one who has noticed that initiates with boltrifle and boltpistol only swap out their rifle for the chainswird and heavy bolt pistol? So they are packing a heavy bolt pistol, a chainsword and a regular boltpistol for some extra shooting in close combat.
I have notes this as well. Nobody in discord seemed to give a toss.
20 man crusader squad with grimaldus are a must have. Scout towards your opponents with the children on the front for the win
Remember: If Grimaldus is attached to the PCS, the squad loses scout.
I'm really happy for the BT players, as they look quite solid right now. I don't have mine painted yet, so can't join in, but it's nice to see.
LoL, I started a Tau and Tyranid Army to try and get some built to play some 10th edition games. I know that neither are all that strong in competitive, but I will be playing more chilled games I think.
I am quite tempted to just go with a more standard paintjob on them (the triple edge highlight formula on the box art) I did want to try and do a more true black, but I think it's too advanced for me to do as well as I'd like. I really need to practice volumetric highlights on easier colours first.
With my Tau I'm doing the white scheme off the new boxes, Infernal Brush broke down the scheme on the boxes (He actually painted them for GW) and they are deceptively simple to paint. It's more or less just a panel line with baneblade brown (small amounts of blazing on some of the white panels for staining) and then where you would normally do edge highlights, you do chips instead with Gorthor brown. I reckon you could speed it right up on the bigger stuff with sponging as well. It just depends how heavy you want to go, the official scheme is very light on the wear, and it looks super-crisp I thought.
It's nice, more chilled scheme though to get myself back into the swing of things. It has a few different things on them as well like the cloth pants, so it's not quite all edge highlighting. The black parts and the grey parts are edge highlighted to the max though. I'll have to see if I'm able to do all of that. it does look very time consuming to get it all done up like. Good practice though, I'm sure once you've done all those angles you would be way better at it.
There are shotguns in the BT upgrade box. What do those count as?
They are now called "Neophyte Firearms"
@@ImplausibleNature Thanks a lot. For someone who is new to the hobby and interested in starting BT, this is all very confusing. With the Neophytes and Initiates in this team. Like how many Neophytes need to be in a squad of Crusaders and what should they get equipped with.
Great video, i cant decide which i prefer more, blocks of 20 crusaders with a character or multiple blocks of 10 scout moving to victory..
One question: Why did you say its “easier“ to battleshock a 20 man unit? Not sure i follow..
Because they will be on the table longer due to more models, so they will take more battleshock over time than a smaller unit
@@ImplausibleNatureok thanks! Edited my comment, great video, love Crusader squads.
My current favorite plan is to walk Gimaldus and a 20 man PCS on from Strategic Reserves. Keeps them alive in turn 1 or 2 then you walk in with a 9 inch re-rolling charge with Girmaldus's buffs going.
You choose Grimaldus' buff in the command phase... womp womp
You can use his abilities why they are on reserves, just not in a transport
Did I misunderstand or did you say you can have a castellan join Grimaldus in the same unit? I thought they could only join captains?
No, Castellans cannot join Grimaldus. We were probably referencing cheap characters that you can use with the 10-man PCS.
~Bob~
@@ImplausibleNatureOh darn. I was really excited for a minute there. 😂
You can't have both Grimaldus and Castellan at the same in Crusade Squad. Grimaldus has no any keyword like Capitan, Chapter Master or Lieutenant. So it means, that castellan can't no be attached to Grimaldus
He was just talking about the various characters you can take with them that are good, not together
~Alex
If you don’t take a crusader squad are you really playing Templars? Lol
Can you take marshal and castelan and ancient in one crusader squad?
No, you can't have more than 2 characters attached to a squad. And, currently, you can't have a Marshal and a castellan as the Marshal lacks the captain keyword. However that should be fixed in the upcoming FAQ later this month
~Alex
After reading Black Templars fluff, I don’t see how you can’t run them. It’s hard to justify taking anything else other than them or sword brethren if you play black Templars. Terminators too, in my head cannon, they’re essentially first born sword brethren that have moved on from just power armor and earned the right to wear terminator armor.
You said take grimaldus and a castellan? I don't think this is allowed *thinky face*
The important question is - how many are too many? I’m thinking like, I dunno…seven Crusader squads? Maybe eight?
Ha, trick question!
YOU CAN NEVER HAVE TOO MANY PRIMARIS CRUSADER SQUADS! Bwahahahaha!
Six is the max allowed.
@@regalgiant1597 it was a joke, buddy. I’m only using three squads in my Onslaught list.
@@EatTheMarxists It was also a joke!
@@regalgiant1597 haha! You got me, my friend - I thought you were being serious!
The only limiting factor is how many can I paint before my hands fall off.
still annoyed unit of 20 is more than 2 boxes as sword brother in the 10, how do you guys get 20 do you kit bash a model as everything is in boxes worth now so will lose a model from something else
I have a thousand extra assault intercessors from Indomitus boxset.
~Bob~
@@ImplausibleNature never got that box unfortunately as only started back on 40k at the end of 9th
If you bought the BT combat patrol, you can also convert the intercessors in there to have the extra chainswords from the second Crusader Squad box.
~Bob~
The PCS box allows you to build 6 initiates + 4 neophytes or 1 SB + 5 initiaties + 4 neophytes. So two boxes will give you a 20 man. Of course, if you then want to run them as 2 x 10, you would need to kit bash something. Worst case scenario, you buy a Marshall or Castellan and use him as a sword brother.
@@catherinedalzell3183 shows how much attention i paid lol new box on order
Put a librarian in a 20 man squad and have 4+ inv save
That's heresy
Heresy. The Emperor God does not will it.
Can a unit attack itself?
We do not support the Witch, brother
@mike-tp1wb well I'd support a witch with a stake, helps keep them in place while they burn 😜
~Alex