I was having neck and back pain and went to Olaf and he fixed me up with the perfect setup for me. Worked wonders and helped me with my posture which then eliminated my neck issue. :) Thanks!
Yes, I sometimes reccomend the Bon Musica. Some of my clients really struggled with most of the other shoulder rests and the Bon Musica did wonders to their posture. They seem to either work really well for some players or just not at all for others.
the luthier who sold me my violin actually made me try out different shoulder rests and helped me find a comfortable one - I am so grateful. Not that I practice that many hours.... but since life is full of habits hurting your neck and shoulders it is nice to have a hobby that does not add too much on that.
At the age of 12 I bought a 40,5cm viola and that purchase was the starting point of problems that followed me all the way until last year. Finally got a teacher who understands the importance about posture and ergonomics. She was the first to mention that the instrument I had was to big so 6 months later I bought a smaller instrument. She also recommended removing the chin rest so did that too. Never looked back. And the most important tool for me to play comfortably is my bon musica shoulder rest. Before meeting my teacher I never thought removing the chin rest was an option but it was so liberating! thank you Olaf for bringing these topics up to discussion and into the light! Always looking forward to your videos!
If my teacher had cared about my comfort, I might not have quit viola when I was a kid. It was just way too painful for me to play. No regrets--I switched to clarinet, which is pretty much the violin of wind instruments. I love how much I learn about string instruments on this channel though. Thanks, Olaf!
@@deltafour1212 Well, when orchestral pieces are transcribed just for winds, clarinets get the violin parts. In a concert/symphonic band, clarinets are nearly always seated where violins are in an orchestra (sometimes on the opposite side). The first chair clarinetist in a concert/symphonic band is the concert master. Range of a violin is G3 to A7. Range of a B-flat clarinet (transposed) is D3 to B-flat7--so clarinets actually have a very slightly wider range than violins. Of course, violins have lots of techniques clarinets can't do, such as chords. Overall though, I'd still say clarinets are indeed the violins of the wind instruments. If you throw in the whole clarinet family, you've got all the strings covered.
Actually we can ask this question in other ways: not just focusing on whether to use SR or not. 1) How much height between the violin from your shoulder will be added by SR than playing without one? because after the violin is raised up, your right hand also have to raise that much. If you have a super long neck, are you going to compensate by SR or Chin rest? Please bear in mind even people with longer neck, when they close their chin to the collarbone, the distance is enough to lock a violin from slipping off from the body. 2) are you going to hold the violin firmly by chin and shoulder? or use partial support from the left thumb? 3) will you adjust the tilt angle and horizontal direction of the violin while playing? these three questions are more important than just asking whether to use SR or not. Different SR will give you different flexibility and comfort.
I have a super long neck. The thing is.. i can comfortably hold my violin between my chin and the collarbone, but i can't play the G string :/. My violin sits perfectly horizontally and i can't reach it using my left hand w/o raising my shoulder, which causes me a lot of pain. Please, do you have any suggestions?
@@stefaneduard8169 I do not believe sit violin horizontal is a good idea. You can try to put foam under your shirt or attached on violin with rubber band. Still keep the violin contacting the collarbone but let the bass bar side raised and tilt the whole violin. If you doing so, you will find the violin is coming to your jawbone, and you only turn the head to the left slightly. The violin should be at least 30 degree tilted when playing G, even 45 degree if you prefer.
I used to have a standard Strad chin rest before I switched to a Vermeer on my viola (16 inch). It worked, but I had to tilt my head a bit and really lean into the instrument to get a good grip. My initial solution was to get extension legs for my Everest shoulder rest and I was able to get by. When I got a new viola (17 inch), I didn't switch the Strad chin rest to a Vermeer right away. I tried Ohrenform, and my first impression was that it may be too tall because I couldn't lean into the instrument anymore. After a couple of days of playing with it and getting used to not leaning into the instrument, I think it's the right one for me since my neck stays relatively straight while playing. I also use a Mach one with this instrument (since the Everest no longer fit) and it is also quite tall. Turns out my neck is a lot longer than I thought it was.
The first shoulder rest I bought when I started playing (nearly 3 years ago) was a kun ajustable shoulder rest and I never regret my choice because it is ajustable and if i'm not feeling comfortable I can ajust it. Because I live in Canada you may not know about this brand, but for people who search for a shoulder rest, I really recommand you to buy a Kun ajustable shoulder rest. Oh and other thing: those shoulder rest are actually *made* in Canada, so the working conditions are good for the workers!
Thank you Olaf for your practical/real world (from first-hand experience no doubt) advice (you have some of the best advice I have come across). I discovered the violin in the 1990's and had the same problem you mentioned, where the teacher tells you to "just do it" and ignore the pain, with the assumption it will go away over time. I had significant pain (neck, shoulder, jaw, arm, and wrist) that didn't go away but, enjoyed playing. However, I don't have as much flexibility as I had then (and I don't think I had quite enough then) so, now the pain level is excruciating (I'm in my mid 60's). I have tried chin and shoulder rests of various designs, all top rated in reviews, in various combinations, as well as the exercise of all the adjustments, observed the "fit" in the mirror, all to no avail (it has all been torture). I re-research this topic every year in hopes to find something that will help but, so far no solution has been found (I'm not giving up though).
I've tried for the longest time to play without a shoulder rest because that's how the dead pros did it - Heifetz, Menuhin, Elman, etc (and some of the best living ones as well). I thought it'd be possible due to my short neck but alas God gave me insufferably short and droopy shoulders, just to watch my prodigy dreams shatter.
It becomes much more of a balancing act, and requires much more left hand support of the instrument to play without a shoulder rest; one can use the same sort of technique that is used without a shoulder rest while using a shoulder rest though. There's a very good video on it here on RUclips...by Murphy Music Academy or something to that effect
Playing the violin I realized I have got a really thin, bony shoulder with a long neck. I can hold the violin by shoulder and chin only but I will have to bent so much that I face downwards all the time (and I already use a shoulderrest). I decided to try a high, centered chinrest because it helps me to get the violin more horizontal and I will try a Wolf shoulderrest because it is said to be really suitable for a long neck. Let's see how it will do. With my acoustic violin it wasn't that much of a problem but the electric one I just got is thinner and heavier and I really need to get it in a nicer position to add some comfort.
I'm using wittner chin rest with kun shoulder rest and I love the combination. I struggled a lot with finding the right setting and this one makes playing comfortable for me. I'd definitely advice people to find the right setting for themselves and not just settle on the chin rest they got with their violin. Especially the beginners will most likely have a problem with the standard guarneri chin rest that tends to be installed on the new student violins. It makes a huge difference to finally find the right chin and shoulder rest
This was very informative. I believe Yehudi Menuhin was the first modern violinist to implement the use of shoulder rests. Also I have on the original Yehudi brand shoulder rest and it is very uncomfortable probably because the padding has hardened over the decades
I ditched my shoulder rest years ago, and it's the best thing I ever did. I started with a small rubber pad to prevent slippage and eventually even ditched that. I love the connection between the instrument and my body and the way it vibrates on my shoulder and clavicle. It takes a while to get used to but eventually you find The Sweet spot. I'll never go back.
I totally agree with you, unless you need to be a concert master and need perfect stable violin (see Menuhin competition) and play for more than 4 hr a day, most of the players (except ones with super long neck) do not need a SR for normal playing task.
@@philipq6906 also, I enjoy the tone of my violin as it vibrates off of my body, rather than the hollow tone when the instrument is suspended in mid-air. Remember, this instrument was played for years without shoulder rests. I'm not here to start an argument but I think, as I did not know for the first twenty years of my playing, that many people do not understand that no shoulder rest is also an option because they are so prevalent today, and certainly my teacher would have been horrified if I had showed up with no shoulder rest.
My long time experience exactly! I began learning to play without a shoulder rest, now nearly 70 years ago. (Still at it, still making progress.) The clavicle forms a perfect little shelf. Some years ago I decided to try a shoulder rest and after a few months got shoulder and neck pains and went back to my clavicle. Look at videos of Anne-Sofie Mutter playing. She wants not only no shoulder rest but no pad or pillow. She likes the feel of the violin against her skin. Her low cut gowns are not for the eyes of men in the audience. Feeling the vibration is important. I must say that sometimes when using a shoulder rest the violin felt like a plank of wood clamped to my shoulder. When I ditched the shoulder rest it seemed that the violin sprang to life again.
I started playing violin with shoulder rest but it became increasingly uncomfortable. Also my shoulder rest kept dropping off. So I learned how to play without one. Got used to it in weeks and since then I experienced so much less fatigue. That encouraged me to play more. One interesting thing I find is that tops with a hole on left shoulder works really well for me so I bought a few cold shoulder tops. Loving them! I enjoy the vibration of my violin so much more these days too. Thanks guys for sharing.
@@leoackley3877 exactly! And the bare skin against the wood also is anti-slip. During the summer when I can play in tank tops it feels as if the instrument is glued to my body.
Some other chin rests people may not have heard of that are interesting that I've tried. The kreddle(I believe Brett uses one) it offers 6 different planes of adjustment, and is pretty nice (though unfortunately I could not get it to fit me). The other is the Wave chinrest (3 versions) which I really like and now use the wave 1, they offer a super low chinrest, and 2 versions one designed for people who play with their head straight forward, and one for those who play with their head turned to the violin, and many different heights. Sometimes getting rid of the shoulder rest (or even chin rest) can help some players play more comfortably. I was one of those, and ditched the shoulder rest fairly early, and never looked back. Positioning also matters a lot.
I agree with the Teka & Kun or Wolf combination being fine for most players, & I get them to try the shoulder rest (& chinrest), checking exactly as you were showing with the curved shape over the shoulder. I have a sway back myself now & so I like the Teka chinrest with the Wolf Forte Primo shoulder rest. The Dresden chinrest may suit short neck players but as you say there are several chinrest designs & shoulder rests & each person is different. I had one player come with that 'lumpy' Strad (Wendling) chinrest & suggested she change it, but she liked it! I don't know how anyone can like it because it just digs into me.
I bought a KUN initially but didn't know you could get longer 'legs' till someone on YT advised a company in the US that supplies such. In the meantime, I'd purchased a WOLF FORTE SECONDO shoulder rest which is pretty amazing. The height adjustment is impressive. You can bend it to shape so it fits snugly over your shoulder and it tilts as well BUT the ruddy thing keeps coming off your violin when playing cos of the foot design. The KUN stays put so I'm back to this for now! But comfort is so important and tutors should spend time with their beginner students going through this and the options in their first lesson before even tackling the bow hold! Edit: Having picked up my violin to check my posture, my neck is in fact tilted slightly... so it's back to the drawing board. Glad I'm sorting this now, 7 months in, and not later, when problems might have developed. An invaluable vid, Olaf.
Oh sheesh, I spent a ton of time and money working with a teacher and a body mapping person trying to figure out my strangely long neck. Didn't know I had a strangely long neck, but it's a thing. So, yes, incorrect body position with the violin or viola will really wreck your day. It can cause all sorts of nerve issues. Thank you! This was terrific!
Have I practiced for 0.40 hours today? Why yes, I practiced for about 1 hour today, thank you for asking. ... and I had FUN doing it too! Today I picked up that G minor with harmonic thing that you do sometimes when trying out a violin (I hope you don't mind that I am copying it from you). I will learn to play it well. I like the different characters that Olaf does sometimes. They crack me up (that is American for they made me laugh heartily).
I know of two violinists who had to abandon the shoulder rest if they wanted to keep playing the violin. I also would always end up with burning feeling in my shoulder and decided to abandon it also. A great push for me to keep like that was when I discovered the method Dounis. I really do recommend that people give it a look.
I'd always used a kun shoulder rest and I am very satisfied. I need a shoulder rest because without one, I am very tensed, uncomfortable and I can't shift down.
I just saw that Olaf showed a kun shoulder rest and at this moment I was proud because it is a canadian compagny and I am canadian 🙂 oh and there is a trick to know if it is a copy of a kun shoulder rest or no: kun's shoulder rests are made in Canada and copy are generally not made in Canada.
I had to do it backwards… I was given a bon musica for Christmas this year and needed to find a chin rest that was comfortable with it. Right now I’m rocking the bon musica and a (modified to fit over my tailpiece) priska chin rest. It feels more secure than the kun/berber combo I had before. It is kind of neat that I’m getting an assortment of setup items and maybe I can help someone in the future so they don’t have to pay lol
The 'Dolfinos', though expensive, is a great option. If you can afford it of course. It combines the chin rest with the shoulder rest and is just great.
there is an old and unfortunately forgotten member of the violin family called the "viola de spalla" which is a rather large sized 5 string violin and has to be played with a strap because instead of holding the violin in front of your chin, it just rests flatly on your chest making the bow technique much more comfortable and natural. if you could make some kind of smaller violin adaptation with the same posture and idea of the strap that could potentially be a much better idea than the typical violin posture.
I used to love the comford shoulder cradle before I switched to no shoulder rest. Then I found that I needed a center chin rest. And that I have an allergy to nickel and titanium clamps so I’m using a wittner plastic chin rest right now
Thanks, this helped me understand I was setting up my shoulder rest wrong, probably! By the way, I saw there are different types of shoulder rests, what about those which look like half shoulder rests (those with no clip, I don't know how to explain it but you show them in the video), are they just for shorter necks or is there any specific reason about them? Thank you ☺️
In your opinion is it worth getting the kun bravo over the standard I cant see if theres any real design differences or if its just that the bravo is wood and brass
Olaf you have really nice videos. Wich s.r. would you recommend for very narrow shoulders? As most of them got upon the joint, (being quite narrow) and they shouldn't. They also are too high so the tilt is too extreme.
6:10 Olaf : Dont wan't to do any kind of leaning or anything like that because that'll create tension through your neck and that can lead to long-term problems. Mr. Vengerov : What are you talking about?
I play since 6 week and still struggle with the shoulder rest. I have the Kun shoulder rest too and have tried all different kinds of heights and set-ups with this one, but it still feels uncomfortable or my violin tilts forward/to my right. I have tried the Wolf as well which was way too high for me. My teacher adjusted the chin rest more to the middle which helped a bit but it still doesn't feel right. How do I find the right set-up? I have screwed and unscrewed the feet of this thing so many times now and it starts to get really frustrating 😔
I started with different types of shoulder rest substitutes then without, all depending on what the teachers' preference was. Only recently have I bought a Kun for myself because it's so recommended by many RUclips channels. Well, it fits just fine, but after a few minutes of playing, I find my neck very tense from having something hard, non-flexible in between my body and the violin. I don't know if this is a thing, but it almost feels like my neck is absorbing the "stiff" energy that the shoulder rest is emitting. The posture is considerably more comfortable in a way, but the tension comes very soon and is hard to get rid of. Is it because of the material, like it's not made of wood and if it were made of wood then there would be very different energy coming from it?
So, in my first lesson, my instructor put a shoulder rest on the violin and i found that it disconnected me from the violin and i found it rather unpleasant. I do think i am going to get one of those foam pads so it's a bit less rough on the collarbone... but it just kinda balances comfortably on my collarbone and constrained (not clamped) by my chin.
Hi Olaf, I have a KUN adjusted should rest. But it seems that it is still too high even I choose the lowest setting. What is your recommendation for those who have short necks? Thanks!
Oh it was pain to find setup for me. I have a very very short neck (I did not realize before). And my wife has cute small very low chinrest which is sooo comfortable for me. If I buy my violin it comes with something called Guarneri style (huge one over tailpiece), and I was not able to use it. I ordered a few chinrests from Germany, at last one is near my wife's one. I use Forte secondo from wolf at most lowest on shoulder side, and it fits nicely. But what I do not like about Wolf is their rubbers on the feet, they are degenerating and you should be careful and change it regularly before the metal part will stick out, be careful to not scratch the instrument! So I am thinking about trying Kun, which is universal for the most people.
Thanks for the thorough explanation! I don't have issues with my setup, well, not the major ones at least. But once you mentioned longer screws for KUN shoulder rests - I'll try to find one. My chinrest is as high as it gets but yet I still need to put my chin down a bit. I also have a scar on the neck and it is right where the chinrest contacts it. It hurts a lot after extensive practice. I have to put some soft cloth on it. Oh, and a small piece of advice for you too - don't use slow zoom in too much. Except if it has a deliberate purpose of creating a comedic effect or putting something in the middle of the screen from the background to the foreground
Are you sorted for longer KUN legs now? Someone helped me out with this recently - a company in the US. Details not directly to hand but will search if needed.
@@wakingtheworld I have, yes. But unfortunately it hasn't solved the issue. At first it felt great, but shortly I've developed some bad habits - my vibrato became somewhat rigid, colle became too prominent so it started messing with dynamics. The problem with rising your violin on a shoulder rest - you inevitably lose the third point of contact - the lover part of the bottomplate. It needs to rest on your collarbone, near your neck. Hard to explain. Otherwise, violin becomes wobbly in a vertical dimension. So no long legs for me, returned back to the standard length
@@acside5313 Fascinating. There's a comment with a long thread on this vid with a whole load of folk who play without a shoulder rest. I mean the guys who made violins way back knew what they were doing... and I never thought about this point of contact before; how it's necessary. Am about to practice. Will experiment a bit more; even try naked and see how it goes! The issue of sweat with skin contact can be sorted with a piece of cloth.
@@wakingtheworld Yep, trials and failures - that's the only way. Playing without shoulder rest has its benefits, but it also has downsides. And one of them - very bad, unhealthy posture. It solves the riddle for me. Another thing and I don't know if this is right, but it's what I'm thinking RN - the main idea of the shoulder rest is not to generally help you hold your violin (which it helps to do too though) but to prevent it from moving from left to right, which skews your sound
@@acside5313 Hmmm. Playing without the rest is a definite No No for me. My neck really has to bend for my chin to reach the chin rest. So yes, bad, unhealthy posture. Really do need this extra long leg for the lower one. By fiddling around with my rest, its position on my violin etc, I'm finally finding a position where my neck is straight and my head just turned slightly to the side... Thanks to this advice from Olaf.
Yeah I need this. I’ve tried everything. Bon musica is closest I’ve come to tolerable but I still end up putting it away and playing without a rest and cramping my neck
Olaf. I'm in the middle of no where, so I guess taking up the violin (and....I may be older than you), won't cause neighbors distress. Your beginner violin is what I am saving for. Seeing as you are talking about comfort, one of the reasons I went voice and woodwind, was my despicable tiny fingers, especially the pinky. The music teachers screamed no violin, no piano!! Now many, many years later, though quite reasonable at the others, I dropped them all....and here I am again.... wanting to play the violin, particularly after TwoSet stirred it all up again. Question. Grown ups with tiny hands.... should we opt for smaller violins????
Why wouldn't you? If you have smaller hands, and maybe shorter arms too, then why going straight to suffer? I always thought, instruments are mainly designed for male players. Yes you can play an average side, but why would we? If you are not looking to get into an orchestra, then go for a 7/8 or even a 3/4. And just enjoy playing instead of having pain from stretches.
Maybe I should get one of these, I’ve got a terrible fiddler posture, and I’ve never had a decent shoulder rest. (Also the one shoulder rest I’ve got the rubber feet wore off, and the metal part is just wrapped in tape now 😅)
i feel like i am a giraffe. i got myself a chin rest that is actually a lot higher than my "standard" one and my shoulder rest is a lot higher too. as long as you do not have to tilt AND clamp the violin with your head, its not so much stress on the neck - i learned it because i have two bulged disks in my neck right now and i can no longer use a bad posture because it feels like paganini stabs me with a knife in the neck when i try to :D
Yes, I have quite a few clients with longer necks... The SAS chinrest paired with a tall shoulder rest often works well. Sometimes the Kun shoulder rest with tall legs will work well.
I discarded the use of shoulder rests as a beginner. After all the 'greats' never used them. I have trouble reaching the A on the G string - could it be the chin rest position?
Can you do a video on violin support systems? I have herniated discs in my neck and I had to stop playing because I can't have my head turned for long periods of time. What you show here is what I was already doing and my neurosurgeon made me stop. I've been reading about the support systems as well as thinking about holding it against my chest like since old time fiddlers.
Yes, that's a very common problem. I'll look into it... It's a huge field. I did a video on neck exercises a while ago. ruclips.net/video/EYJHpBcnt7A/видео.html
I've been having issues with my shoulder rest collapsing mid-performance. Is this an issue with the size of the shoulder rest or could it be a structural issue with the shoulder rest? I have the 16.5" KUN shoulder rest shown in the video and I have a 16.5" viola.
Hmm, how old is the Kun shoulder rest? Unfortunately they don't last as long as the instrument 😄 You may need a new one, or your viola is narrower than an average 16.5...
I tried the Kun shoulder rest and it was resting on my arm, not on my shoulder. I cannot find any shoulder rest that fits me because I have a small frame with narrow shoulders. So instead of resting on my shoulder, it rested at the tip of it, not at all on my collar bone. I guess I will try the cushion. I don't have neck pain, instead I have pain in my shoulder muscle, the one that lift my arm.
i have a great kun sholder rest, but since i swichted violins last year, i have problems with my chin rests, i have two and both of them make problems for me, im searching for new ones
I don't play the violin, so I really don't know: do all these options not change the way the instrument vibrates and thus the sound? Or is the change too minute for human ears? Wouldn't a cushion or any other attachment absorb some of the vibrations?
they do have some influence but its not too big. the weight of the set up , the way its fixed to violin, the points of contact, they do matter but not as much as other elements so ultimately it's more important to be comfortable. I did hear a violin played with a normal and then with an expensive shoulder rest that was designed to have minimal influence on the sound and you could hear the difference. However looking at all the best soloists nowadays, they usually do use classic chin rests and shoulder rests so its not that big of a deal
Bon musica shoulder rest helped a lot with my tall neck and narrow shoulders. However I have a very hard time with my bony+narrow jaw and my chinrest. It hurts a lot and slips very easily bc my jaw is so small. Why cant they produce chin rests with a soft, puffy material😬😅
I use Chinese knockoff Kuns that you can buy on eBay for around $2.50 for my loaner instruments. They seem to work just as well with constant use and switching from student to student. No damaged instruments as of yet. Kuns are overpriced IMO, though I don’t know how much they are in Australia.
i have no muscular problems my problem is that i do not fell the violin «integrated» to my body when i change position i feel il escaping and if i try to clutch it with my chin -jaw it get sore and i loose what i am reading on partition now i give me some t😅me to get used to actual ". fairly reasonable » situation or will give up after 4 years efforts anyway at my aga the risk of playing at La Scala r zero
I was having neck and back pain and went to Olaf and he fixed me up with the perfect setup for me. Worked wonders and helped me with my posture which then eliminated my neck issue. :) Thanks!
That's wonderful to hear Georgie!
It can make such a big difference
Swag 😎
Even as a cellist, I find this stuff interesting
After years of tinkering I finally changed to a Bonmusica shoulder rest and never looked back.
I have one- it certainly made alot of difference!
Yes, I sometimes reccomend the Bon Musica. Some of my clients really struggled with most of the other shoulder rests and the Bon Musica did wonders to their posture.
They seem to either work really well for some players or just not at all for others.
I tried the Bon Musica and hated it
@@Sirtuner yes, people either hate it or love it...
@@Sirtuner There are so many body types ... Which shoulder rest did you choose and what did you like about it?
I love how integrated TwoSet is with Olaf’s channel! That’s so cool!
the luthier who sold me my violin actually made me try out different shoulder rests and helped me find a comfortable one - I am so grateful. Not that I practice that many hours.... but since life is full of habits hurting your neck and shoulders it is nice to have a hobby that does not add too much on that.
Its so cool how Olaf makes these super helpful videos
He deserves waaaay more subscribers :
Thank you 🙂
It's great to hear that people appreciate what I do. For me it's all about supporting string players.
Ok, Subscribed😊
I prefer a scarf over a shoulder rest I find it much more comfortable
Ive got no chin or shoulders. My last shoulder rest ended up in disgrace down behind the tv cabinet where I threw it!
At the age of 12 I bought a 40,5cm viola and that purchase was the starting point of problems that followed me all the way until last year. Finally got a teacher who understands the importance about posture and ergonomics. She was the first to mention that the instrument I had was to big so 6 months later I bought a smaller instrument. She also recommended removing the chin rest so did that too. Never looked back. And the most important tool for me to play comfortably is my bon musica shoulder rest. Before meeting my teacher I never thought removing the chin rest was an option but it was so liberating! thank you Olaf for bringing these topics up to discussion and into the light! Always looking forward to your videos!
If my teacher had cared about my comfort, I might not have quit viola when I was a kid. It was just way too painful for me to play. No regrets--I switched to clarinet, which is pretty much the violin of wind instruments. I love how much I learn about string instruments on this channel though. Thanks, Olaf!
"clarinet, which is pretty much the violin of wind instruments" Is it?
@@deltafour1212 Well, when orchestral pieces are transcribed just for winds, clarinets get the violin parts. In a concert/symphonic band, clarinets are nearly always seated where violins are in an orchestra (sometimes on the opposite side). The first chair clarinetist in a concert/symphonic band is the concert master. Range of a violin is G3 to A7. Range of a B-flat clarinet (transposed) is D3 to B-flat7--so clarinets actually have a very slightly wider range than violins. Of course, violins have lots of techniques clarinets can't do, such as chords. Overall though, I'd still say clarinets are indeed the violins of the wind instruments. If you throw in the whole clarinet family, you've got all the strings covered.
Actually we can ask this question in other ways: not just focusing on whether to use SR or not.
1) How much height between the violin from your shoulder will be added by SR than playing without one? because after the violin is raised up, your right hand also have to raise that much.
If you have a super long neck, are you going to compensate by SR or Chin rest? Please bear in mind even people with longer neck, when they close their chin to the collarbone, the distance is enough to lock a violin from slipping off from the body.
2) are you going to hold the violin firmly by chin and shoulder? or use partial support from the left thumb?
3) will you adjust the tilt angle and horizontal direction of the violin while playing?
these three questions are more important than just asking whether to use SR or not.
Different SR will give you different flexibility and comfort.
I have a super long neck. The thing is.. i can comfortably hold my violin between my chin and the collarbone, but i can't play the G string :/. My violin sits perfectly horizontally and i can't reach it using my left hand w/o raising my shoulder, which causes me a lot of pain.
Please, do you have any suggestions?
@@stefaneduard8169 I do not believe sit violin horizontal is a good idea. You can try to put foam under your shirt or attached on violin with rubber band.
Still keep the violin contacting the collarbone but let the bass bar side raised and tilt the whole violin.
If you doing so, you will find the violin is coming to your jawbone, and you only turn the head to the left slightly.
The violin should be at least 30 degree tilted when playing G, even 45 degree if you prefer.
Stefan, have you tried the 35mm SAS chinrest?
Genuinely looking forward to this as i need a new shoulder rest as mines not comfortable but honestly i dont have a clue
I can't get enough of your skits and characters Olaf
I used to have a standard Strad chin rest before I switched to a Vermeer on my viola (16 inch). It worked, but I had to tilt my head a bit and really lean into the instrument to get a good grip. My initial solution was to get extension legs for my Everest shoulder rest and I was able to get by. When I got a new viola (17 inch), I didn't switch the Strad chin rest to a Vermeer right away. I tried Ohrenform, and my first impression was that it may be too tall because I couldn't lean into the instrument anymore. After a couple of days of playing with it and getting used to not leaning into the instrument, I think it's the right one for me since my neck stays relatively straight while playing. I also use a Mach one with this instrument (since the Everest no longer fit) and it is also quite tall. Turns out my neck is a lot longer than I thought it was.
Can you believe people that play without a shoulder rest? It looks like kids who tuck their cellphone on their shoulder! Ouch!
Thank you Olaf!
Your words are valuable.
Greetings from Spain.
This is exactly what I needed right now Olaf! Thank you once again for your informative videos!
Hi Olaf! Thank you for sharing this with us. It means a lot!
Very helpful, thank you for your wonderful videos!
The first shoulder rest I bought when I started playing (nearly 3 years ago) was a kun ajustable shoulder rest and I never regret my choice because it is ajustable and if i'm not feeling comfortable I can ajust it. Because I live in Canada you may not know about this brand, but for people who search for a shoulder rest, I really recommand you to buy a Kun ajustable shoulder rest. Oh and other thing: those shoulder rest are actually *made* in Canada, so the working conditions are good for the workers!
Thank you Olaf for your practical/real world (from first-hand experience no doubt) advice (you have some of the best advice I have come across). I discovered the violin in the 1990's and had the same problem you mentioned, where the teacher tells you to "just do it" and ignore the pain, with the assumption it will go away over time. I had significant pain (neck, shoulder, jaw, arm, and wrist) that didn't go away but, enjoyed playing. However, I don't have as much flexibility as I had then (and I don't think I had quite enough then) so, now the pain level is excruciating (I'm in my mid 60's). I have tried chin and shoulder rests of various designs, all top rated in reviews, in various combinations, as well as the exercise of all the adjustments, observed the "fit" in the mirror, all to no avail (it has all been torture). I re-research this topic every year in hopes to find something that will help but, so far no solution has been found (I'm not giving up though).
Loving the close-up/zoom-in edits here
Just what I need! I'm a violin newbie and all the practice, though enjoyable, is killing me!!
I've tried for the longest time to play without a shoulder rest because that's how the dead pros did it - Heifetz, Menuhin, Elman, etc (and some of the best living ones as well). I thought it'd be possible due to my short neck but alas God gave me insufferably short and droopy shoulders, just to watch my prodigy dreams shatter.
It becomes much more of a balancing act, and requires much more left hand support of the instrument to play without a shoulder rest; one can use the same sort of technique that is used without a shoulder rest while using a shoulder rest though. There's a very good video on it here on RUclips...by Murphy Music Academy or something to that effect
Thanks for the recommendations. Very useful for someone who just started learning the violin.
Thank you for this useful video!😊
Such a valuable video. Thank you so much!
great explanation olaf, thanks a lot
This video really helps! Thank you uncle olaf😊
Great video Olaf! 👍❤
Thank you uncle Olaf
Playing the violin I realized I have got a really thin, bony shoulder with a long neck. I can hold the violin by shoulder and chin only but I will have to bent so much that I face downwards all the time (and I already use a shoulderrest). I decided to try a high, centered chinrest because it helps me to get the violin more horizontal and I will try a Wolf shoulderrest because it is said to be really suitable for a long neck. Let's see how it will do. With my acoustic violin it wasn't that much of a problem but the electric one I just got is thinner and heavier and I really need to get it in a nicer position to add some comfort.
I'm using wittner chin rest with kun shoulder rest and I love the combination. I struggled a lot with finding the right setting and this one makes playing comfortable for me. I'd definitely advice people to find the right setting for themselves and not just settle on the chin rest they got with their violin. Especially the beginners will most likely have a problem with the standard guarneri chin rest that tends to be installed on the new student violins. It makes a huge difference to finally find the right chin and shoulder rest
I think you have the funniest thumbnails of any creator I follow
2:18 here in the US, we have OSHA, or Occupational Safety and Health Administration
This was very informative. I believe Yehudi Menuhin was the first modern violinist to implement the use of shoulder rests. Also I have on the original Yehudi brand shoulder rest and it is very uncomfortable probably because the padding has hardened over the decades
Thank you for your video it's very helpful☺
I ditched my shoulder rest years ago, and it's the best thing I ever did. I started with a small rubber pad to prevent slippage and eventually even ditched that. I love the connection between the instrument and my body and the way it vibrates on my shoulder and clavicle. It takes a while to get used to but eventually you find The Sweet spot. I'll never go back.
I totally agree with you, unless you need to be a concert master and need perfect stable violin (see Menuhin competition) and play for more than 4 hr a day, most of the players (except ones with super long neck) do not need a SR for normal playing task.
@@philipq6906 also, I enjoy the tone of my violin as it vibrates off of my body, rather than the hollow tone when the instrument is suspended in mid-air. Remember, this instrument was played for years without shoulder rests. I'm not here to start an argument but I think, as I did not know for the first twenty years of my playing, that many people do not understand that no shoulder rest is also an option because they are so prevalent today, and certainly my teacher would have been horrified if I had showed up with no shoulder rest.
My long time experience exactly! I began learning to play without a shoulder rest, now nearly 70 years ago. (Still at it, still making progress.) The clavicle forms a perfect little shelf. Some years ago I decided to try a shoulder rest and after a few months got shoulder and neck pains and went back to my clavicle. Look at videos of Anne-Sofie Mutter playing. She wants not only no shoulder rest but no pad or pillow. She likes the feel of the violin against her skin. Her low cut gowns are not for the eyes of men in the audience. Feeling the vibration is important. I must say that sometimes when using a shoulder rest the violin felt like a plank of wood clamped to my shoulder. When I ditched the shoulder rest it seemed that the violin sprang to life again.
I started playing violin with shoulder rest but it became increasingly uncomfortable. Also my shoulder rest kept dropping off. So I learned how to play without one. Got used to it in weeks and since then I experienced so much less fatigue. That encouraged me to play more. One interesting thing I find is that tops with a hole on left shoulder works really well for me so I bought a few cold shoulder tops. Loving them! I enjoy the vibration of my violin so much more these days too. Thanks guys for sharing.
@@leoackley3877 exactly! And the bare skin against the wood also is anti-slip. During the summer when I can play in tank tops it feels as if the instrument is glued to my body.
I like the style of this video's editting
Keep up the good work🙂
I’m buying my violin and accessories today!!
Thanks for great explanations! I started today with learning Violine, but found already out that chin rest or shoulder rest can be a problem!
Some other chin rests people may not have heard of that are interesting that I've tried. The kreddle(I believe Brett uses one) it offers 6 different planes of adjustment, and is pretty nice (though unfortunately I could not get it to fit me). The other is the Wave chinrest (3 versions) which I really like and now use the wave 1, they offer a super low chinrest, and 2 versions one designed for people who play with their head straight forward, and one for those who play with their head turned to the violin, and many different heights.
Sometimes getting rid of the shoulder rest (or even chin rest) can help some players play more comfortably. I was one of those, and ditched the shoulder rest fairly early, and never looked back. Positioning also matters a lot.
I learned Tai Chi too! It really teaches one to relax as you are getting the crap beat out of you. :-)
Love your videos
I agree with the Teka & Kun or Wolf combination being fine for most players, & I get them to try the shoulder rest (& chinrest), checking exactly as you were showing with the curved shape over the shoulder. I have a sway back myself now & so I like the Teka chinrest with the Wolf Forte Primo shoulder rest.
The Dresden chinrest may suit short neck players but as you say there are several chinrest designs & shoulder rests & each person is different. I had one player come with that 'lumpy' Strad (Wendling) chinrest & suggested she change it, but she liked it! I don't know how anyone can like it because it just digs into me.
I bought a KUN initially but didn't know you could get longer 'legs' till someone on YT advised a company in the US that supplies such. In the meantime, I'd purchased a WOLF FORTE SECONDO shoulder rest which is pretty amazing. The height adjustment is impressive. You can bend it to shape so it fits snugly over your shoulder and it tilts as well BUT the ruddy thing keeps coming off your violin when playing cos of the foot design. The KUN stays put so I'm back to this for now! But comfort is so important and tutors should spend time with their beginner students going through this and the options in their first lesson before even tackling the bow hold!
Edit: Having picked up my violin to check my posture, my neck is in fact tilted slightly... so it's back to the drawing board. Glad I'm sorting this now, 7 months in, and not later, when problems might have developed. An invaluable vid, Olaf.
Excellent sir
Oh sheesh, I spent a ton of time and money working with a teacher and a body mapping person trying to figure out my strangely long neck. Didn't know I had a strangely long neck, but it's a thing. So, yes, incorrect body position with the violin or viola will really wreck your day. It can cause all sorts of nerve issues. Thank you! This was terrific!
Took me a bit but I found an inexpensive Everest shoulder rest and then switched to a Berber style chin rest. Feels comfortable and secure.
Have I practiced for 0.40 hours today?
Why yes, I practiced for about 1 hour today, thank you for asking.
... and I had FUN doing it too!
Today I picked up that G minor with harmonic thing that you do sometimes when trying out a violin (I hope you don't mind that I am copying it from you). I will learn to play it well.
I like the different characters that Olaf does sometimes. They crack me up (that is American for they made me laugh heartily).
I know of two violinists who had to abandon the shoulder rest if they wanted to keep playing the violin. I also would always end up with burning feeling in my shoulder and decided to abandon it also. A great push for me to keep like that was when I discovered the method Dounis. I really do recommend that people give it a look.
I've been playing violin for 8 years and I think the shoulder rest is one of the main things I haven't mastered
honey, I've been playing for 26 years, and just now I’m starting to feel comfortable
Super thumbnail, a big like for that. Good humor!
We’ll meet in the Caribbean zone or somewhere :)
See you Olaf
Simon from Ulm
I'd always used a kun shoulder rest and I am very satisfied. I need a shoulder rest because without one, I am very tensed, uncomfortable and I can't shift down.
Can you talk about 18th century violins without chin rests? How did they play?
Thankyou ☺️
I also use the teka chin rest.
I just saw that Olaf showed a kun shoulder rest and at this moment I was proud because it is a canadian compagny and I am canadian 🙂 oh and there is a trick to know if it is a copy of a kun shoulder rest or no: kun's shoulder rests are made in Canada and copy are generally not made in Canada.
I'm pretty comfortable with mine (tido) but this actually helps
I had to do it backwards… I was given a bon musica for Christmas this year and needed to find a chin rest that was comfortable with it. Right now I’m rocking the bon musica and a (modified to fit over my tailpiece) priska chin rest. It feels more secure than the kun/berber combo I had before. It is kind of neat that I’m getting an assortment of setup items and maybe I can help someone in the future so they don’t have to pay lol
Dope!
The 'Dolfinos', though expensive, is a great option. If you can afford it of course. It combines the chin rest with the shoulder rest and is just great.
I have so much trouble with this 😅😳
there is an old and unfortunately forgotten member of the violin family called the "viola de spalla" which is a rather large sized 5 string violin and has to be played with a strap because instead of holding the violin in front of your chin, it just rests flatly on your chest making the bow technique much more comfortable and natural.
if you could make some kind of smaller violin adaptation with the same posture and idea of the strap that could potentially be a much better idea than the typical violin posture.
I used to love the comford shoulder cradle before I switched to no shoulder rest. Then I found that I needed a center chin rest. And that I have an allergy to nickel and titanium clamps so I’m using a wittner plastic chin rest right now
Olaf found an editor-san! :)
Thanks, this helped me understand I was setting up my shoulder rest wrong, probably!
By the way, I saw there are different types of shoulder rests, what about those which look like half shoulder rests (those with no clip, I don't know how to explain it but you show them in the video), are they just for shorter necks or is there any specific reason about them?
Thank you ☺️
Yeah. I'm not getting on with it. Saving for a cello now lol
In your opinion is it worth getting the kun bravo over the standard
I cant see if theres any real design differences or if its just that the bravo is wood and brass
Wave 1 medium viola chin rest and EFEL viola shoulder rest. Once the EFEL is warped to balance this is the perfect combo.
Olaf you have really nice videos. Wich s.r. would you recommend for very narrow shoulders? As most of them got upon the joint, (being quite narrow) and they shouldn't. They also are too high so the tilt is too extreme.
Everrest works for me
Hey Olaf, Which polishes do you think are the best. (Can you sort them from good to bad?)
6:10
Olaf : Dont wan't to do any kind of leaning or anything like that because that'll create tension through your neck and that can lead to long-term problems.
Mr. Vengerov : What are you talking about?
What violin are you demonstrating in this video??? It's very pretty!
thank you for very useful video . I have a problem my chin rest screws , hurt my neck . what can I do for this . please tell me .
I play since 6 week and still struggle with the shoulder rest. I have the Kun shoulder rest too and have tried all different kinds of heights and set-ups with this one, but it still feels uncomfortable or my violin tilts forward/to my right. I have tried the Wolf as well which was way too high for me. My teacher adjusted the chin rest more to the middle which helped a bit but it still doesn't feel right. How do I find the right set-up? I have screwed and unscrewed the feet of this thing so many times now and it starts to get really frustrating 😔
I started with different types of shoulder rest substitutes then without, all depending on what the teachers' preference was. Only recently have I bought a Kun for myself because it's so recommended by many RUclips channels. Well, it fits just fine, but after a few minutes of playing, I find my neck very tense from having something hard, non-flexible in between my body and the violin. I don't know if this is a thing, but it almost feels like my neck is absorbing the "stiff" energy that the shoulder rest is emitting. The posture is considerably more comfortable in a way, but the tension comes very soon and is hard to get rid of. Is it because of the material, like it's not made of wood and if it were made of wood then there would be very different energy coming from it?
So, in my first lesson, my instructor put a shoulder rest on the violin and i found that it disconnected me from the violin and i found it rather unpleasant. I do think i am going to get one of those foam pads so it's a bit less rough on the collarbone... but it just kinda balances comfortably on my collarbone and constrained (not clamped) by my chin.
Hi Olaf, I have a KUN adjusted should rest. But it seems that it is still too high even I choose the lowest setting.
What is your recommendation for those who have short necks? Thanks!
Oh it was pain to find setup for me. I have a very very short neck (I did not realize before). And my wife has cute small very low chinrest which is sooo comfortable for me. If I buy my violin it comes with something called Guarneri style (huge one over tailpiece), and I was not able to use it. I ordered a few chinrests from Germany, at last one is near my wife's one. I use Forte secondo from wolf at most lowest on shoulder side, and it fits nicely. But what I do not like about Wolf is their rubbers on the feet, they are degenerating and you should be careful and change it regularly before the metal part will stick out, be careful to not scratch the instrument! So I am thinking about trying Kun, which is universal for the most people.
Thanks for the thorough explanation!
I don't have issues with my setup, well, not the major ones at least. But once you mentioned longer screws for KUN shoulder rests - I'll try to find one. My chinrest is as high as it gets but yet I still need to put my chin down a bit. I also have a scar on the neck and it is right where the chinrest contacts it. It hurts a lot after extensive practice. I have to put some soft cloth on it.
Oh, and a small piece of advice for you too - don't use slow zoom in too much. Except if it has a deliberate purpose of creating a comedic effect or putting something in the middle of the screen from the background to the foreground
Are you sorted for longer KUN legs now? Someone helped me out with this recently - a company in the US. Details not directly to hand but will search if needed.
@@wakingtheworld I have, yes. But unfortunately it hasn't solved the issue. At first it felt great, but shortly I've developed some bad habits - my vibrato became somewhat rigid, colle became too prominent so it started messing with dynamics. The problem with rising your violin on a shoulder rest - you inevitably lose the third point of contact - the lover part of the bottomplate. It needs to rest on your collarbone, near your neck. Hard to explain. Otherwise, violin becomes wobbly in a vertical dimension. So no long legs for me, returned back to the standard length
@@acside5313 Fascinating. There's a comment with a long thread on this vid with a whole load of folk who play without a shoulder rest. I mean the guys who made violins way back knew what they were doing... and I never thought about this point of contact before; how it's necessary. Am about to practice. Will experiment a bit more; even try naked and see how it goes! The issue of sweat with skin contact can be sorted with a piece of cloth.
@@wakingtheworld Yep, trials and failures - that's the only way. Playing without shoulder rest has its benefits, but it also has downsides. And one of them - very bad, unhealthy posture. It solves the riddle for me.
Another thing and I don't know if this is right, but it's what I'm thinking RN - the main idea of the shoulder rest is not to generally help you hold your violin (which it helps to do too though) but to prevent it from moving from left to right, which skews your sound
@@acside5313 Hmmm. Playing without the rest is a definite No No for me. My neck really has to bend for my chin to reach the chin rest. So yes, bad, unhealthy posture. Really do need this extra long leg for the lower one. By fiddling around with my rest, its position on my violin etc, I'm finally finding a position where my neck is straight and my head just turned slightly to the side... Thanks to this advice from Olaf.
Yeah I need this. I’ve tried everything. Bon musica is closest I’ve come to tolerable but I still end up putting it away and playing without a rest and cramping my neck
Sometimes an adjustment of posture can help as well... if you have a longer neck the SAS chinrest can help too.
@@AskOlaftheViolinmaker thanks! I’m quite tall so that does seem to be the issue. I use an extra tall chin rest but will look at the SAS
@@jad19851 they come in different heights
Olaf. I'm in the middle of no where, so I guess taking up the violin (and....I may be older than you), won't cause neighbors distress. Your beginner violin is what I am saving for. Seeing as you are talking about comfort, one of the reasons I went voice and woodwind, was my despicable tiny fingers, especially the pinky. The music teachers screamed no violin, no piano!! Now many, many years later, though quite reasonable at the others, I dropped them all....and here I am again.... wanting to play the violin, particularly after TwoSet stirred it all up again. Question. Grown ups with tiny hands.... should we opt for smaller violins????
Why wouldn't you? If you have smaller hands, and maybe shorter arms too, then why going straight to suffer? I always thought, instruments are mainly designed for male players. Yes you can play an average side, but why would we? If you are not looking to get into an orchestra, then go for a 7/8 or even a 3/4. And just enjoy playing instead of having pain from stretches.
Maybe I should get one of these, I’ve got a terrible fiddler posture, and I’ve never had a decent shoulder rest. (Also the one shoulder rest I’ve got the rubber feet wore off, and the metal part is just wrapped in tape now 😅)
❤❤❤❤❤
i feel like i am a giraffe. i got myself a chin rest that is actually a lot higher than my "standard" one and my shoulder rest is a lot higher too. as long as you do not have to tilt AND clamp the violin with your head, its not so much stress on the neck - i learned it because i have two bulged disks in my neck right now and i can no longer use a bad posture because it feels like paganini stabs me with a knife in the neck when i try to :D
Yes,
I have quite a few clients with longer necks...
The SAS chinrest paired with a tall shoulder rest often works well.
Sometimes the Kun shoulder rest with tall legs will work well.
You didn’t say much about the chinrest. My shoulder rest seems good but my chin bone rests on the edge of the chinrest
I discarded the use of shoulder rests as a beginner. After all the 'greats' never used them. I have trouble reaching the A on the G string - could it be the chin rest position?
Can you do a video on violin support systems? I have herniated discs in my neck and I had to stop playing because I can't have my head turned for long periods of time. What you show here is what I was already doing and my neurosurgeon made me stop. I've been reading about the support systems as well as thinking about holding it against my chest like since old time fiddlers.
Yes, that's a very common problem. I'll look into it... It's a huge field.
I did a video on neck exercises a while ago.
ruclips.net/video/EYJHpBcnt7A/видео.html
Would a video on various chin rest heights be possible?
Find youself a Leather Scrap on your shoulder, this might be better than a normal shoulder rest (or just wear leather jacket when you are playing)
A chamois, easily available at a hardware store, works well.
@@sara505sings Thanks I learnt this from Nathan Cole's channel.
I've been having issues with my shoulder rest collapsing mid-performance. Is this an issue with the size of the shoulder rest or could it be a structural issue with the shoulder rest? I have the 16.5" KUN shoulder rest shown in the video and I have a 16.5" viola.
Hmm, how old is the Kun shoulder rest? Unfortunately they don't last as long as the instrument 😄
You may need a new one, or your viola is narrower than an average 16.5...
Shoulder rests make my shoulder ache so bad, and without one, my giraffe neck hurts. What do you think about the 'sponge' technique?
I tried the Kun shoulder rest and it was resting on my arm, not on my shoulder. I cannot find any shoulder rest that fits me because I have a small frame with narrow shoulders. So instead of resting on my shoulder, it rested at the tip of it, not at all on my collar bone. I guess I will try the cushion. I don't have neck pain, instead I have pain in my shoulder muscle, the one that lift my arm.
I quickly get very sore between my shoulders. I think it’s weak muscles, so I work out in a gym five times a week.
i have a great kun sholder rest, but since i swichted violins last year, i have problems with my chin rests, i have two and both of them make problems for me, im searching for new ones
I don't play the violin, so I really don't know: do all these options not change the way the instrument vibrates and thus the sound? Or is the change too minute for human ears? Wouldn't a cushion or any other attachment absorb some of the vibrations?
they do have some influence but its not too big. the weight of the set up , the way its fixed to violin, the points of contact, they do matter but not as much as other elements so ultimately it's more important to be comfortable. I did hear a violin played with a normal and then with an expensive shoulder rest that was designed to have minimal influence on the sound and you could hear the difference. However looking at all the best soloists nowadays, they usually do use classic chin rests and shoulder rests so its not that big of a deal
Bon musica shoulder rest helped a lot with my tall neck and narrow shoulders. However I have a very hard time with my bony+narrow jaw and my chinrest. It hurts a lot and slips very easily bc my jaw is so small. Why cant they produce chin rests with a soft, puffy material😬😅
the string thing is also used in ballet
I use Chinese knockoff Kuns that you can buy on eBay for around $2.50 for my loaner instruments. They seem to work just as well with constant use and switching from student to student. No damaged instruments as of yet. Kuns are overpriced IMO, though I don’t know how much they are in Australia.
I use a kun shoulder rest
Good for you!
i have no muscular problems my problem is that i do not fell the violin «integrated» to my body when i change position i feel il escaping and if i try to clutch it with my chin -jaw it get sore and i loose what i am reading on partition
now i give me some t😅me to get used to actual ". fairly reasonable » situation or will give up after 4 years efforts anyway at my aga the risk of playing at La Scala r zero