Violin Setup Journey: shoulder rests, chinrests, etc
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- Опубликовано: 23 июл 2024
- Today I'll give you a glimpse of how my violin setup has evolved over the years, as well as some tools to experiment with setup on your own. It's crucial to find the balance of understanding and efficiency while not over-engineering your setup altogether. I'll even show you a little invention I am working on to replace shoulder rests!
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CONTENTS
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00:00 Welcome!
00:40 "Golden Triangle"
01:43 Experimentation and Individuality
=== 03:10 MY SETUP OVER THE YEARS ===
03:28 Shoulder rests
07:50 Chinrests
11:45 Key to chinrest stability!
12:57 Pads, fabric and other accessories
15:40 Different types of foam materials
16:40 Quirky contraption
17:38 My invention in progress
===18:45 PHYSICAL CONSIDERATIONS ===
19:22 Gear vs Technique
19:49 Hand / Head balance when holding
20:32 Scroll Support Method
---video: • The most important tip...
21:04 Independence of Arm vs Shoulder
21:40 Shoulder "forward" instead of "up"
22:11 Body dynamics while playing
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This type of video is really so helpful, precisely because it shares years of small struggles and fiddling around
"Fiddling around" +1 for the apt pun!
Daniel, One thing that I think can be discussed more fully is the position of the violin on the shoulder as a fitment issue. Whether the bottom of the violin, or the end of the violin is right or left affects two things. The first thing is the ability of the player to get over the shoulder, especially when they have smaller hands or shorter fingers. So, if the violin end or bottom is situated more to the left, then getting over the shoulder with the left hand, becomes easier and facilitates shifts in higher positions. However, the farther left the violin is on the shoulder, the more pronated the left hand has to become in order to play. For example, thirds become more difficult. So there is a balance to be struck. I am in the process of trying to find the chinrest that will allow me to find that balance. My fingers are short and my hand is stubbyish. So it’s hard to get over the right upper bout. So I’m very glad to hear about Mach 1 and I intend to contact them very soon. Thank you!
You've raised some compelling points! From the viewpoint of an experienced violinist, it's commonly observed that a "successful violinist" has dedicated a significant portion of their life to mastering their instrument with a specific setup, experiencing minimal changes over time. This consistency is more often the norm than the exception. As a result, it becomes challenging to confidently evaluate the impact of altering the violin's position, since such changes are beyond the realm of our usual experience. While one can theorize about the physical implications, truly understanding the experience requires firsthand practice. Despite my experiments with various playing techniques, my experience is still relatively narrow within the myriad ways there are of handling the instrument and setting up the arms. For instance, adopting the kind of position of the violin you described feels unfamiliar to me. To form a well-informed opinion, I would need to invest weeks, if not longer, immersing myself in this new setup to grasp its nuances, challenges, and possible adjustments. I will think more on this, however, and what you mention certainly warrants a discussion and/or video!
This topic is so underrated and not much spoken of. Thanks so much !!
This topic is a never ending saga on violinist .com. Let`s put it another way. ---You could make a good living my boy .
Your words and sharing your experiences are very important. Intelligent and consistent analysis for a universe still so naive of dedicated instrumentalists but who still need to use their reasoning and see that behind an idol there is only a simple human being like anyone. Congratulations Daniel !!
Thank you!
Noted
Thanks so much. As an adult beginning violin player, I have been searching to find the most appropriate methods, tools, techniques for holding my violin in the proper aspect. I have tried 3 different shoulder rests, 2 different chin rests while trying to get comfortable while practicing and playing. I plan to try your padded chin rest next! Thanks again.
Thank you. So much to try out! 👍
Your K rest to me is sheer genius!
Thanks for sharing your experience!
I've used the Bon Musica shoulder rest almost exclusively since 2005 (my bend looks quite different!) I took a hiatus from it in grad school on the suggestion of my teacher, opting for the ol' pad and rubber band setup. During those same years I also did my first playing on a period instrument, strangely preferring no pad or cloth whatsoever, resting the chin on the right side of the tailpiece as Leopold Mozart suggests. I see this as a necessary 2 year exploration into holding the violin more with the hand and developing a more intimate tactile relationship with it as such. It felt great to go back to the Bon Musica after all that, but I now treat it as a shoulder REST, not a shoulder clamp.
Now here I am, eyeing that fancy KorfkerRest, soon to possibly be replaced by the K-rest. I'm trying to buy a new instrument this year. What's another $400!
Sounds like you're on the correct journey.
Make friends with a violin shop and ask them to order it at cost (half price usually) it's worth it if you have to use a shoulder rest.
Great invention ! And thank you for all that you offer here.
I really like "Perfection Pegs". They are geared pegs with a 4:1 gear ratio. The gear is inside the shaft of the peg so you don't see it and it looks like a regular peg. Professional violinists only use a fine tuner on the E string because they feel that find tuners cause some loos of tone. If that is true, then geared pegs without any fine tuners at all must be better. In any case, it is easier to tune all strings very precisely with geared pegs and you don't need any fine tuners on the tailpiece at all. You can install them yourself or have a luthier do it. If you do it yourself, you can buy a boring tool cheaply off ebay with the correct taper. You don't need a $100+ one from a violin shop. It is very easy to overbore the hole, so you should turn the boring tool just 1/4 of a turn, try the peg, retry etc. Put the pegs in when you think the hole is still too small as the tension of the strings will tighten the peg. The Perfection pegs actually have threads that bit into the wood of the peg box. You use a cotton swab, dampened with water, to soften the wood up a bit before putting the peg in. The threads are hidden under the wood. So, you do need to be precise, but patience will let you do a good job. I am very impressed with mine. On very old violins, the constant turning of pegs eventually wears the holes bigger, they need to be plugged and rebored. Geared pegs eliminate this.
They came pre installed on my current instrument. I totally agree with your comments. The only downside is you cannot remove a string as quickly as with traditional pegs. But that sort of need is a rare situation.
i struggled with my setup since beginning in 2016 until I finally trusted the reviews and splurged on a Pirastro korvkerrest model 2 (wayy expensive, of course), and bam...once I figured out how to adjust it, it made my violin life complete. These instruments simply must be treated with respect and the setup is CRITICAL. Do not be afraid to spend $$$ to get your setup right. This has changed the way I play, the amount I can play, the length of time I can play with comfort---in other words, it has changed everything for me.
OMG your invention in progress its so intelligent!! I'll do it for me!!!
This teaching instruction at its finest.bravo Danny. It is a privilege an an a honor.
Thank you so much❤
Great information which helped me out from struggling with some of the problems for many years. Thanks!
Very analytical and intellectual approach to the topic.Wonderful video-Thank you!
This is a really helpful video. This detailed and objective information is really hard to find, particularly in one place. Thank you.
Super video!
Thank you very much!
Very helpful video. Thank you so much.
You're very welcome!
Gives me so many ideas and tools, since i have the same long neck issue. Thank you very much!
Happy to help!
21:52 the point about directing the shoulder forward instead of upwards was huge for me. For a long time I played with shoulder pain (both with and without a shoulder rest) and didn’t understand why - my shoulder was “down”. But that was because I was tensing it up and holding it down and back instead of letting it move slightly forward naturally.
Simon Fischer quotes a therapist who interrupted a discussion on the position of both shoulders by saying: "instead of worrying about the precise position, worry about whether it feels free and fluid.
Fischer's chapter in The Violin Lesson on playing pain free is full of wisdom and helpful detail.
Waiting for my 3cm chinrest to arrive! This was really helpful because even as a beginner practicing not a lot, one day I’m comfortable and the next one new place (usually the shoulder or neck) hurts out of no where.
Thanks a lot for this video. You have also answered a question asked previously. Very informative and useful.
Glad it was helpful!
OMG my arm is supposed to move I just discovered this last week thanks again. 😊
A very good presentation. As violin beginner I faced many problems how to find best solution. Glad that you tried many different things about that complicated theme shoulder rest. Thanks!
Another great and useful video. Inspired by it I've crafted several contraptions from dense foam I've found at home. I ended up with a bizarre looking extension to a shoulder rest that looks like a hook and catches behind the shoulder. Shifts became way more stable
Love your content, Daniel. I’ve been experimenting over the past number of years also. Being an older advanced player, I am playing more now than I have for years, so comfort is a big priority in order to get the most out of my remaining playing years. I have a wide chamois wrapped around my Goetz chin rest, all the way around and under my shoulder rest. It protects my skin from chafing and the growth of callus on both my neck and collarbone. It looks terrible, but it seems to be working for now. However, I have looked at other options with reserve (since everything costs $$) considering whether to try anything new. This video has helped to narrow my considerations to just what I need to focus on in particular. Thanks very much.
Thank you for this, Daniel! I’m just coming back into playing again after right thumb surgery. I realized that I have been so focused on the new way I have to hold my bow with a hand splint on now that I have neglected to figure out why my neck hurts in a new spot & why the shoulder rest helps my violin slide down my more sloping shoulder. It didn’t used to do that. The angle of violin to bow, the concept of bringing the violin to the bow in certain passages, both will be helpful. So will a higher chinrest. I’m changing to Planetary Pegs as well. My thumb doesn’t have enough grip strength to turn my pegs when it is more humid. I enjoy your channel. I just wanted to let you know that I found this video and the one with the luthier on getting more acquainted with your violin especially helpful this week. I’ll be back!
Muchas gracias, el subtítulo me ayuda mucho, saludos desde Argentina.
Muchas gracias por compartir muy valiosa información!!!
Gracias!
The quest...I have just about one of every shoulder rest and several chin rests, still change around occasionally.
Very interesting prototype near the end.
Tension is something I’m struggling a lot with so if you made a video on reducing different tensions, especially (for me) the right arm muscle that is at the armpit connecting the shoulder and chest I’m sure many people would find it useful. Finger tension is also a very elusive puzzle, as I’m trying to discover the best ways to settle my fingers and keep them relaxed as I play. I also find my left hand fingers to be quite tense on the fingerboard, especially when playing double stops; it’s also harder to hold the violin in the left hand more with double stops for some reason. In fact, my broader question is about retaining a relaxed technique during playing. I can always do some stretches and play open bows and slow tones for a couple minutes very relaxed, but if I start more complex pieces that relaxation of the fingers and arm goes away almost immediately.
Thank you so much for sharing your decades of experience, it really helps me. I too did a lot of experiments, sometimes crazy, but found some connection points between his checks and my checks.
1-The little piece support on the chin rest also helps me for stability. 2-the high positions on my shoulders rest take better care of my high neck (and destroyed) but they reduce my stability. 3- I used Bonn for 8 years after using Kun for another 8 and finally went back to kun.
Thanks again for sharing.
Thanks for this very useful explanation of the set up. I am a semi-professional violinist (with a long neck) and experimented myself a lot and I am still discovering how the system arms, neck, shoulder and head works together. At the moment I play with a SAS-chinrest and a acousta grip-cushion, which allows a certain freedom in the movements with the violin. But due to one Alexander-technique-lesson last year I discovered that I have to change my posture (very little changes with head and shoulder position) as well, so I can recommend it to experiment also with the posture.
Alexander technique was very helpful for me as well! It creates such a vital counterpoint to the way we are typically conditioned to move. As for acoustagip, I don't trust any product that itself is shaped like a violin :) but definitely take your word for it!
thank you. I am a beginner and it' s good to know that total comfort and satisfaction is difficult if not impossible to attain for even professional players like you. In one video I saw, Nicola Bennedetti said the same as you. Just when she thinks she's got the perfect set up solution, it starts to be uncomfortable and she's on to the next attempt.
Yes . On to the next one that is built exactly like the ones before . Players want something different but it must always look exactly the same . It`s like an injury . They dare not tell in case they get dropped . No changes allowed .
Thank you so much Daniel for sharing with us part of your violin setup. Would you consider also sharing with us information about the bridge, and tailpiece that you use and why you use them? Thank you again for the great content that you always bring to us.
The bridge and tailpiece are the original ones from the maker of the instrument, Andrew Ryan. Bridges have to be carved made to fit your instrument, so I can't make any recommendations on that other than to find a good violin shop that will do it. As far as tailpieces, I don't see a difference other than a cosmetic one, although switching the tailpiece gut to kevlar is a structural improvement.
Periodddd 🤩
Ok I admit it, I snuck in to destroy your audio reverse-watergate style. You're too good not to sabotage! I couldn't help it...
I've been going through this process and was glad to come across this video. I'm happy to see I'm not the only one who is experimenting with home-brew solutions. This process yielded me a way of playing without a shoulder rest for the very first time. That was a very freeing sensation which has led me to rethink my playing and setup, even with a (much more minimal) shoulder rest mounted.
Kreddle has an under violin "Cushion" product which is analogous to something you demonstrated in the video; wonder if you've tried it. Also wondering if the K Rest is still on your docket; it looks very interesting. Thank you for your continued support of the violin community! ~Bill A.
Seeing the evolution of the setup finally made me realize why I am so uncomfortable with trying to learn the violin. Now I know what I need. A higher shoulder and chin rest. I need em both wew. Shame to the music store for selling me equipment that barely did anything for me. I asked them if they have a chin and should rest then without saying anything showed me one model of each in an annoyed manner. NOw I realize they just wanted to push their product on me
careful building height :) always consider the balance of the instrument in the hand and on the collar bone before adding height. The goal, afterall, isn't to fill up the gap completely between the chin and the shoulder. There needs to be somewhat of a gap so that you can move freely. We don't want our equipment to force us into static positions.
My evolution has been roughly in this order - Wolf (the flat one) for about ten years till it broke, Bon Musica for about ten days till it broke but I hated it anyways - then I got a gift of an unknown plastic curved one till I invested in Viva la Musica . Liked the low and flat feeling and increase in tone but I still wasn't 100% sold on it. I took a chance and got the Performa rest and it was love at first play! For something so big it is the lightest I have found and supportive but not constrictive. Feet seem very well made and secure also. Although it looks like a croc glued to a spatula I think this is "The One". For me.....For now! :-) Thanks for another great video!
Thanks for watching and sharing! It's always useful to read the stories of others. There are so many different ideas and approaches one can take.
Hi Daniel great to get your input on this whole area. There are so many variables! I got much increased stability when I angled the "shoulder curve" strip on the knee musica shoulder rest. That metal strip is now attached at an angle which sits further towards my neck. Great because I have narrow shoulders.
I now need to solve the problem of a slight forward fall of the instrument when I get into a piece or after some energetic playing. I nearly have to reset the violin... I don't notice it in my practice time cos I'm stopping and starting.
G Ire
DUUUUDE your shoulderrest (the forte secundo) is so heavy used :O crazy! :D
Great content (as usually). I am using Bonafont for couple of years now but actually getting tired for its heaviness. I will give a try to Pirastro. Looks great. It is so important to have this notion of stability yet lightness as if nothing was attached below. I used to play without a shoulder rest (3 years) but it was really challenging especially when you spend 5 hours a day practicing. Your back suffers a lot. People who says its perfect are crazy haha
Thanks for sharing your process!
I'm a violist, but acquiring a larger instrument last summer made me go through this whole cycle again and reevaluate my playing. I still haven't figured it out what is optimal, but you've certainly flagged some routes to explore. I used a Cradle for years, which was solid, but heavy and limiting, and have for past decade or so used a Mach One bolstered with small pads and a rotating neutral/dark handkerchief (or leather or chamois) to hide the scaffolding. For chin rests my long-time teacher liked guarneri, and I go through cycles with it, and SAS. I've only recently learned how to effectively play with Guarneri (relaxing more, finding the 'hook' point, less chin), but with the taller SAS it's noticeably easier to play in case of shoulder rest drop mishap.
Generally, in revisiting my set-up and sound generation I've become more attuned to finding my "geometry" more, and consciously pulling on the Tuttle Coordination. Weight lifting has probably also increased my conscious use of my back and core to maintain good open posture.
Thanks for mentioning Tuttle. Diving into her work can really shed light on setup as a consequence of technique/posture/feeling, rather than the other way around.
Nicee!!
Thanks for another great video Daniel. I have found exercising without a SR can be helpful in developing balance, freedom and left hand dexterity. The truly adventurous may try sans SR and CR for a real challenge. It’s amazing how light and open the instrument becomes.
Absolutely! I have experimented with this as well. That's one of the things that got me thinking more to adjust my technique and increase the hand's responsibility in balancing the instrument.
Thanks for this video. Packed with lots of information :)
So a few thoughts here:
- I absolutely agree that finding the right combination is a journey, and that everyone's needs are different. While some people are comfortable not using a shoulder rest, others are not.
- One major piece of advice I have for anyone trying the Bon Musica is to straighten the hook out. That darn hook can restrict the violin into one place, which can be annoying. Luckily, the hook is bendable which means it can be straightened to be less obtrusive. I consider rests with non adjustable hooks, like the hooked version of the Mach one, to be a bigger problem, because the hook is non adjustable which means you can't straighten it or bend it if you want to.
- One overlooked factor when it comes to shoulder rests is where you are placing it on the violin/how you're angling it. Normally, you are taugh to put our shoulder rest straight across the back of the violin. Though this can work well for many people, many others will find this a really uncomfortable position for the shoulder rest, so they will instead angle it SW--NE (with strings facing up and endpin facing you) instead of straight across. I think experimenting with the angle is really important, especially for those with narrower shoulders because by orienting it SW-NE, you can get it closer to your collarbone and off the shoulder joint/the edge of the shoulder.
- Regarding chinrests, I think the position of the cup is also a critical factor. Some people prefer models on the side, others prefer models that are placed near centre. Also, I will mention that some people do indeed prefer flatter chinrests, myself included. While I, and many others, do enjoy the feeling of having the chinrest lock under the jawbone, I find that for me I need to avoid anything with a very deep cup because the high ridge tends to dig into my jawbone too much, so I find flatter chinrests more comfortable for my particular anatomy. Also, for me there are two major categories of chinrests which I have basically ruled out entirely because they're never comforable for me regardless of shape:
Guarneri type chinrests and its variants (anything with a bar in the centre and a cup off to the side): these come on the vast majority of violins when I first buy them, and they all seem to cause me some amount of discomfort and jaw pain. Some feel okay, others feel absolutely awful.
Side mounts that don't touch the tailpiece: These are too far to the left for my jaw placement, which is closer to the tailpiece than those chinrests allow. They certainly are a good choice for many players, though.
This affectively leaves me with two major categories of chinrests that do work depending on the shape: side mounts that extend over the tailpiece (e.g Teka) and center mounts.
My neck is a bit on the lengthy side, so currently I'm using a Wittner center mount with small rubber risers underneath to make it a bit higher and it works great for me. I also play viola but I don't need risers for my viola chinrest due to the thickness of the instrument.
Thanks for your thoughts and experience!
Very interesting video. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I have been very happy with my Korfker shoulder rest as it came out of the box, for a year until it started to fall off. I could not figure out how to shorten the distance of the feet without completely messing up the geometry, and my husband who is a geometer couldn‘t either. There is a „how to reset to original condition“ video somewhere, so I might try again. The most important lesson I learned from an Alexander Technique teacher and violinist is that there is no perfect setup, and that, as you said, we can adapt. I also discovered that I could support the violin partially with my hand, and it made a big difference. I would not mind a bit more stability.
Yes it's a bit awkward to adjust it, but basically I found that adjusting 1 foot to the desired point was the crucial thing. Once both feet are loose, it's very hard to swim your way into a good position because the feet want to be move in very specific ways. Then I would put it on the fiddle with 1 foot loose, and get a rough idea of what shape is needed. Then it's a matter of figuring out the order of adjustment of the 2 parameters on each foot. I think they did it this way because it's a simpler construction which allows for less overall mass. It frustrated me as well, but eventually i got it. I hope they find a more optimal solution in the future!
I will tackle it again the next time when I come back from a meditation retreat. 🎻😊
Bravo! This was the most useful presentation I've ever seen on setup. I love your analysis of the pros and cons of some of the options. And your experimental approach. And your placing comfort above aesthetics, using various colored pads and bands that purists would shun.
You're so right about the dogmatism of too many teachers on this. I was once shamed by a conductor ( violin teacher) in front of the whole orchestra because I can't play without a shoulder rest, as she did.
The quest for the optimum setup is something so many violinists are on. I also tried the Kreddle chinrest; I found all the different adjustments rather overwhelming. I switched to The Wave, and use it with a cloth cover. I've tried many different shoulder rests, now I use a BonMusica. But the Pirastro may be worth trying.
One curious thing I noticed about your posture:
In the video, whenever you're not holding the violin, it appears that your left shoulder is several inches higher than your right! Is this an illusion, or real?
I think that's just the video angle and my sitting on 1 buttock! :)
Putting comfort first is the big mistake. A deckchair may feel comfortable but eventually will be bad for your back .
Great video!
In my opinion after years of experimentation, most shoulder rests are designed for players with a leaner body type with a pronounced collar bone. The ‘curve’ of the rest is often narrow and the height on the shoulder side is often quite high, even on the shortest setting once you add the violin and a chin rest. I would love to find out for example with the KUN what body sizes and shapes they originally used for product testing.
People with broader frames can also have narrow shoulders which can make things tricky too, because this forces the player to move the shoulder rest towards the edge of the shoulder which can block freedom of the shoulder joint, causing restriction when shifting and eventually tension.
Chin rests are so so important I believe to finding a stable and comfortable set up. Without a well fitting chin rest, no amount of shoulder rests will fix the issue.
Totally agree! I would also be interested to see how they tested the major shoulder rest models. I am sure the results will not strike us as scientific :)
Hello Daniel . Nathan Meltzer wrote to me to say he used one of my "ridiculous " shoulder rests for a while. He moved away from it for a few years and noticed tensions increasing so began using it again to teach him the correct position . That`s rather impressive from a player I have never met .A far better player than me as well .
New players will learn to hold the violin properly if they use the neck strap as well . There is a scientific purpose for the neck strap .But appearances are more important for too many players .
Dear John -- thanks so much for the comment! No offense intended with my humorous take :) I have definitely recommended to others that they try your system if they are experimenting and diagnosing issues. For me personally, the neck tie didn't prove to be a useful as the bottom part, which I played with for a little while. This journey is so personal, and I am positive that many would find your system beneficial if they gave it a shot. Is there a website where people could purchase it or inquire about it?
@@DanielKurganov Hello Daniel ,I put my email on a few posts further down . caddj@ymail.com
I was interested in the Pirastro rest as you showed where the shoulder fits on it . That is a classic difference with the neck strap design. The outer shoulder where the Pirastro fits allows the jaw pressure to continue .The neck strap design does not need the outer shoulder and , as I found myself , my shoulder had also learned the music and knew when to push upwards without me realising . The outer shoulder movement becomes redundant and also the equal and opposite jaw pressure.
That`s where the double surface of the anti slip material comes in .Two friction surfaces will hold a 13 pound weight with an 8 ounce kitchen weight resting on them.Clamp a piece to a table and arrange another piece attached to a cord . Put the 8 ounce weight on the two pieces annd add a hook to the cord. It`s a beautiful ,surprising element in the absence of slipping violins.
I used the neckstrap originally without expecting anything . But the neck strap did not shift . I used it for a week before I worked out why .An engineer would recognise the holding stability as it`s similar to a Band Brake .
I must say the clerical and financial effort of getting Patents was not really worth it . It`s expensive for an individual for a very small market so I abandoned that .It was also a long drawn out process . I have a collection ready to go but moved onto other things.
Pirastros were not interested when I wrote to them as I could see nothing original in their design. I always admired their high quality strings .
After my hearing loss and vertigo I lost a lot of interest in violins and in fact dislike violin tones now . A lot is stored in my memory fortunately .
As a side issue I liked the idea of sending some of these to a Russian Conservatory as a present to mend the awful international situation . How altruistic is that ? Where would be a good place to send them ?
Best wishes . John.
Wonderful video about super important often under-discussed elements and concepts -- especially for students! Something we all need to think about regularly and explore more openly. I'm curious about the dense foam "shoulder hook-ie" thing. Can you remember where you might have gotten it? Super interesting idea. Cheers!
Glad it was helpful! For the foam thing...I think it comes from the packaging of Bose Noise Cancelling headphones. I am thinking to speak with some manufacturers and adjust the design a bit to be a viable solution.
Great work Daniel.
It's been always problem for many player/luthiers.
I know and heard about someone who lives in Holland.She does the orthopedic service by recomandation.You taken app and go there so they take your chin mould and produce for you.But I think is going to be long process like keep going for trial again and again.
Don't think many people knows and probably expensive but forever?
Thanks to help people
You can try the Impressionist Chinrest Comforter. It basically creates a mold of your chin. I don't usually advise these for 2 reasons: Firstly, it locks you into one head position as the only one that 'fits' the chinrest. Secondly, it's not clear to me that the ideal is something that creates no pressure points around the shape of your jaw. In fact, an 'uneven' surface may be what gives you the balance of stability and control. If something fits too well, it's hard to leverage it.
Best of luck!
*I wish I could send pictures!*
I made 2 chin rest extensions out of wood, batting fill, and fabric. The first with 3/4" plywood and very little batting (too hard and big), the 2nd today with thin wood (1/8" maybe), lots of batting and fabric. It works excellently. Makes me sad I spent so much on higher shoulder rests in the past because this feels right. Oh well. @danielkurganov, your video made me question my setup and it seems to have worked out for the better. Thanks!
Excellent! I was doing some similar things years ago. It was a great way to get the height I was looking for. Even just stacking hard cork works to create the extension. I guess my approach is no longer "height" but more surgical supports under the jaw and (as of 2 days ago) at the left tip of the chinrest to keep the violin from sliding. That way I don't need to grip the chinrest with downward force. Bravo for creating your own solution. That's always the best.
Daniel If you always wear a jacket when playing , a patch of black friction cloth neatly stitched on the lapel will eliminate the neck strap . That will be substantially lighter than Pirastro`s .
As a tall guy (1.94cm/6,4 feet) I also have a long neck and started using a SAS chin rest. So comfy! And it supports everything niceley. But my shoulder rest could need an upgrade...
I have a sas on one instrument too! Love it
Have you tried 'The Impressionist" comforter, a moldable material that sits atop the usual chinrest? It is removable and remoldable. Molding forms an impression of your own chin.
I heard of it and will check it out!
I played with a Kun shoulder rest for maybe 15 years, but in the last 2 or 3 years, I've switched to just using a small Artino Magic Pad. As someone with a relatively short neck, it works just fine for both violin and viola. That being said, I've been so curious about the Korfker Shoulder Rest. I just can't justify spending that kind of money on a lark currently.
Great that you found something that works. A simple pad like the Artino, or the red makeup sponge is a great solution. It darkens the sound of the violin a little bit as compared to a good shoulder rest, but that might even be preferable. The Pirastro is too expensive. I got it heavily discounted, otherwise I might not have plunged. I hope to bring the K-Rest to the public in the coming years, if I solve a few issues. It's perfect for people with a short neck. And it will be affordable.
Rubber cement works like a charm, used it for years with the red pads!
You can try artino sr 21 a improved shoulder pad very nice to use
@@philipq6906 I’ve gotten argentino before for myself as well as students and I personally don’t like them too many problems with the bolts sliding around. But thank you for your suggestion!
@@michelevolz7769 I have just got it and it is a new product called sr 21. It has a silicon ring and a foam pad. I think we are talking two different products. But anyway everyone has different body shape and preference.
@@philipq6906 post a picture?
Hey there just saw a picture, looks very similar to my red pad set up
I at present dont use any shoulder rest. I also dont use a chin rest. I play bareback so that I can turn the instrument sideways like Ostrach to run the bow tertically to avoid stabbing any fellow violinist in the eye. I currently am not in any orchestra but if things should change Im pro active with shielding the guy or ladie sitting right next to me. When i have used a chin rest i put round felts on it on the back edge to form a lip for my chin. I used an everest with balled up socks at each end. The reason i dont use them any more is torsion on the back plate.and the dulling of tone. I believe glue cracks are encouraged when securing a shoulder rest so I am currently avoiding the use of these items. However I do believe they help with vibrato so may switch back another time. I like the freedom to move like a gypsy and not get locked in. Thank you Mr. Kirganov! Most especialy greatful!😅
I think I have a matching piece of mystery foam!
Mine fits into the headband case for the Bose 35 noise cancelling headphones.
Bingo! I figured that out eventually as well :)
My teacher obtained a Pirastro rest and lent it to me for one lesson. I knew upon playing that I needed one for myself.
It is indeed so light, affects the tonal qualities of my instrument only a little and once I got my own, I have noticed a significant drop in tension throughout my shoulder and arms. I just wish that they were not as prohibitively expensive as they are.
@@thecatofnineswords yes indeed. Mach One’s cheap plastic model is even lighter probably. It can probably be modified to have custom-feeling shape. Maybe something I will try for fun.
Hi Daniel! First of all, thank you for your videos. I have learned so much from you, and look forward to learning even more. Could you tell me where I could purchase the Mach One Pad, the chamois leather, and the little round sponges. TIA
Chamois leather? I buy the ones they sell for polishing cars!
I totally agree with you. Teachers who insist on students to play without a shoulder rest are missing the point entirely.
Yah it’s a shame. Twice over, because there are teachers that hold very special and unique knowledge, yet have that stupid limitation. So, ultimately their knowledge and the tradition they represent has less of a chance to get passed down, because they torture some of their students with this unrealistic approach to setup.
I believe as a beginner you should of course try to play without one. I did that. But not everyone is built the same, and these devices or “crutches” as the anti-shoulder rest people like to call it, have enabled more people to be able to play. Yes the violin resonates more without one, but I have yet to hear someone after a Kavakos concert say: “great playing but... that shoulder rest kind of ruined the performance for me” 😂
The Pirastro shoulder rest sounds identical to playing with nothing! I did some nonscientific tests with various shoulder rest. 🤷🏻♂️
Maestro I love your content and agree with your conscious approach towards setup. But as you say it in your video, the dogmatism of “shoulder rest/chinrest“ is what’s bad and it goes both ways. My teacher taught me , and in my opinion rightfully so, that it’s ideal to start without the shoulder rest (emphasis on start) to find proper balancing experimentation ( as for example the role of the left hand in the holding of the instrument). I’m in no way agreeing you just bruteforce to the student that it’s bad to use a shoulder rest, but there are some teachers who just take out that option since the first stage because they don’t want the left hand to participate in any way towards balancing the instrument. So people grow up with that idea that the head and the shoulder clamping does all the holding in a static fashion and just find a way for both ends to meet through higher chinrests or shoulder rests. Again thank you for this video, I think your approach is pretty clear on the video itself but some people may take the same approach of dogmatism regarding the lack of use of shoulder rests.
@@dvides89 totally agree with you about starting people without one. If my neck was shorter I would play without one 100%. No dogmatism here...for the most part :)
Here is another question for the up-coming Q&A, also related to equipment. What are your thoughts on rosin and on rosining? I feel like I am breathing in rosin while playing. I do not have allergies, just want to be careful. I have tried to use less rosin, but then the bow feels slippery. I am using Salchow light.
Excellent Discussion! You’ve put in black and white the challenges and experiences...Bravo!!
I’m a jazz violinist and constantly changing my position and hand shape. Tried the kreddle and the Saas ...
I wish there was a combination of the two....
Can you make a video on hair tightness and function?
Bow choices?
My shoulder rest search ended wiith the AcoustaGrip in combination with SAS chinrest. I think it really is best flexibilty/stability ratio. The AcGrip does have trouble staying attached to the violin though, so I need rubberbands for that
Excellent! I personally can't get myself to try the Acoustagip, as I think it's absurd that it's shaped like a violin :)
@@DanielKurganov I do a agree with that. Though IMO it does look slightly less absurd in reality than in the close-up pictures. :)
And now that I had to take it off once after a long period of quarantine I got reminded how finicky the attaching mechanism really is. So, actually it's some kind of sponge that I attach with rubber bands -- unless I want to buy a new one every month. It does attach at some point over the course of days of playing, but I have no idea under what conditions!
Yet another question for your Q&A. I am curious how you became such a dedicated and innovative teacher. Do you have a rôle model?
He's certainly my role model and the one I recommend to others! 🙂
Hey. Can you make a video telling the difference between spiccato and sautille ? In addition, I would be very happy if you show us this on 1-2 exercises regarding the application of the difference between the two techniques.
Violinmasterclass.com
And basics ( Fischer)
Great video! Have you ever tried playing without a shoulder rest, I also have a long neck and that has solved my problems with the under of the instrument. Additionally, have you looked into custom chin rests?
I started without a shoulder rest and changed when I was 23 or so. I have made/had made for me custom chinrests before, yes. I found that it get cumbersome to engage in that level of craft when my feeling might change. So I like having little sponges, larger spongers, dense ones, soft ones, hard cork, etc. This way I can experiment with different things with fewer barriers/friction.
Thank you so much for making this video!! So much wonderful information and ways to explore this issue. I appreciate that you walked us through your journey. I am currently looking for a short shoulder rest. Are you able to adjust the legs on the Korfker that you are using to a very short length? Or do you have other suggestions for short shoulder rests? I am currently using a shaped sponge, but, as you mention in the video, it is not particularly stable. My chinrest is raised like the chinrests in your video. Any suggestions would be great. Thank you again for this information. I really appreciate it!
The korfkerrest gets low enough for me. Not as low as the Wolf secondo. I would also try the MachOne. There's a cheaper plastic version of it that's great for testing purposes.
@@DanielKurganov Thank you for the info. I just picked up a Kun Bravo. It's kind of weighty, but the height is great. I had the secondo before, but that felt a bit bulky after raising my chinrest. I didn't try the MachOne. It looked a bit too curvy and might lock my instrument to the left a bit too far (I'm short so I need a more forward postion). It's such a great time to experiment with setup!
Thank you so much for this Video.. Very useful
Do you think a high Chin rest or a high shoulder best is better for normal playing ? (I have a long neck and I am using the bon musica shoulder rest)
A higher chinrest is definitely preferable to a high shoulder rest. The violin should contact the collar bone. If your shoulder rest eliminates that contact, I think it's too high, or at the very least at a bad angle.
@@DanielKurganov thank you so much!
Hi Daniel. I have been looking at the Kreddle chinrest. I think you maybe have the 1.st edition? Have you tried the newer version where it comes with 2 different snap-on tops?
I haven't tried the newer edition. I'll check that out!
I like the one at 16:30, where can I get something like that?
I have a long neck and I have considered giving up playing the violin many times due to discomfort on my set up. I've been using bonmusica shoulder rest and taka chin rest but I'm really not satisfied with it. I'll try some of your options and see what happens. Thanks for the video
Don't give up! Just be careful not to work towards answering the wrong questions. The question should not be "how do I build something up that makes the violin just fit to me with no gaps, etc". Holding the violin as we do is unnatural no matter how you spin it. That's why in folk traditions the violin is held against the chest, or in India sitting and stabilized at the foot. So part of that means considering technique as the primary element of your setup. For me, it meant balancing the fiddle in the hand a bit more. Best of luck!
I used to suffer from very bad neck problems (slipped discs c6-c7) so had to change the way I held the violin to establish a natural posture as close to the normal way you hold your head. I achieved this by using the Bon Musica shoulder rest (because of its height) and also using a Strad Pad attached on top of the chin rest. Obviously a good balanced bowing technique and independence of left/right hands when playing loudly, for example, helps to avoid tension anywhere in the body. So you can enjoy playing the violin and start the focus on the music itself.
Thanks, nothing wrong with an engineer, 😊😊
You got that right!
HAMOOD HABIBI HAMOOD
Thanks . Your videos are very helpful. I have a question if you don't mind. I want to know how can I keep the rhythm without a metronome?
Develop your own internal 'metronome'. Do you dance?
@@DanielKurganov Perfect answer! 🙂
Can you explain us what is the distance from one string to another string in the bridge of the violin. Especially when buying a new violin we have to fix the bridge and string and its very hard to know exactly from where the string should place on the bridge. THANK YOU
A violin maker will know those measurements! That shouldn't be something we mess with. Take it to a luthier if you suspect something is wrong.
Where do you buy your mach one chin rest pad ? ❤
Two things I found hugely important were:
1) The exact position of the shoulder rest on the instrument, and the exact height of each adjuster. And I do mean exact. When I started the violin, the (£10) rest I bought with it seemed hopeless to me: it dug into bones and gave no support. Then I happened to hit on a particular position of each arm on the violin that really worked. It didn't look special to me! I moved one of the arms sideways a few millimeters. It felt horrible again and the violin wanted to spin around, causing me to use excess force to clamp it. Soon after, I put four indelible dots on the violin (it's a cheap one), on the inside of the arms, so I can quickly put the rest into the exact position. Without those dots I would fear losing that position forever!! I've found the height adjuster settings important too, but more for instrument angle than hold or comfort.
• The direction (heading?) of the instrument. I started with it more to the left than I have it now. Then I discovered that having it a bit less to the left (toward the front) made the shoulder rest work better and feel more comfortable, and also eliminated strain reaching around with the left arm for G string vibrato.
Note that I'm a late starting older person (54) who's not yet been playing a year - so not yet with the beautiful tone or technique of Daniel or others here. However, I am nevertheless a good musician on other instruments (see channel) and I can play my violin for unlimited (5 etc) hours with no discomfort at all (so much better than flute for me, where turning my head constantly left causes me huge problems), and given my late start that's obviously very important. I have a history of muscle / nerve / blood vessel issues, so this positive situation with the violin is quite unexpected for me.
My main reasons for writing (TLDR) were to say that the exact position of the shoulder rest rather than type can be the solution, and to say that for some people at least it's possible to get a setup that causes zero discomfort or injury, which is obviously good for lots of reasons - not least having an entirely positive approach to music making on the violin.
Extra: I contact the shoulder rest with the very rear part of my jaw, and use head weight rather than muscle tension to apply force. Maybe I should call it a head rest! 🤭
Thanks for your insights Daniel.
What's your argument to those who insist on not using a shoulder rest? They claim that way their violin resonates freer with bigger sound. In theory that may be true, but I feel comfort is priority. Agree?
If I follow my ideal philosophy of simplicity and simplify by ditching the shoulder, then I'll be fussing with experimenting with the right chinrest or some pad......Which actually defeats the purpose of simplicity.
Anyone have any suggestions for a shoulder rest for people with long neck? I’ve tried everything except Pirastro one, just wondering if it’s a good one or maybe there is a better solution.. Tnx
Daniel Do a test to see how much sideways friction a pair of mesh slip proof pieces can sustain . Get scientific and find out how amazing this mesh really is .I changed to some polyurethane rubber but the mesh is more practical and easy for a player to replace. Just simple glue wil fix it . It needs replacing after 6 months use . It starts to look worn after that out but will not let you down .
Did you try Dolfinos shoulder rest?
I have not, but one of my students uses it and says good things. I think for that money you can hire a craftsman to build something lovely and customized for your own needs :)
One thing that confuses me about a baroque purist set-up is how it doesn’t muffle the violin given the direct contact of the shoulder and jaw on the violin body, which might be further muffled with a cloth (that I’ve seen rest on the tail piece even).
Most Baroque players don't use the shoulder, but rather the instrument sits on the collarbone. However, for those (baroque and otherwise) who do make contact with the shoulder, of course, it changes the sound, but it's not necessarily bad. If anything, it probably takes a bit of the edge off. All in all, it's a negligible difference, especially when that is the position you need to play your best and have good contact with the string (much more vital for sound quality).
Thank you... did you miss the strings?
Yes! I want to put them back on...
I’m really curious of the maker of this black “collarbone support” thing! Can you share me his name?
John Cadd
@@DanielKurganov John Cadd on same email caddj@ymail.com
My "quirky" shoulder rest needs the neck strap for complete comfort and freedom .
How do I keep myself motivated every practice?
Set goals for each practice session and if needed specify them.
For example: practice measures 1-5 slowly. Focus on intonation and bow distribution.
I developed a deep relationship with my violin. She became my family. She thought me who I am and what I can be. So I can't imagine not playing it everyday and giving her quality attention that she deserves. So the feeling of gratitude and humility is what makes me want to practice my pieces ❤
Keep listening to violin and fiddle music in your free time. That's what both reminds me to practice and keeps me wanting to.
Some good suggestions here! Listen to violinists you love and try to play like they do :)
@@DanielKurganov
My list:
• Daniel Kurganov
• Chloë Hanslip
• Hilary Hahn
• Maxim Vengerov
• Fritz Kreisler
Together they keep me busy! 🙂
I've been a professional violinist for about 60 years and in my time I've tried every device you could think of, but when I got a great violin I felt that it would be unfair to the instrument to have it chained to devices. I use a very flat chin rest and that is all. I'm very comfortable because I don't ever fight the fiddle. Balance was the answer for me! I don't have a long neck but if you do then just practice over your bed until you know that you won't drop the fiddle and then try taking your head off ....like a baroque player and don't be afraid to move around. When you close your eyes, can you see yourself playing comfortably? That's important too.
6:20 "Stupid, sexy Flanders!" Tell me I'm not the only one who thought this...
Nothing at all… Nothing at all… Nothing at all!
Genial, en castellano por favor?
Typo... bon musica
My philosophy is that if I ditch the shoulder rest for the ideal of simplicity, I don't want to be modifying some special chin rest or fussing with sponge pads or some shit. Because that's not really simplifying, and I might as well be using a shoulder rest.
Agree?
Thank you for saying that anti-shoulder-rest teachers are irresponsible! It seems that people with very little neck have a lot of trouble imagining what it like to have one 😡 The damage that Aaron Rosand has done by telling people that no one should use a shoulder rest is really quite unfortunate and frustrating.
Your prototype is very interesting, but keep in mind that women typically perform in sleeveless dresses, so there would be nothing to put that pad under. And even women’s casual clothing and winter clothing tends to be too thin and too form-fitting to allow anything to be placed under it without looking ridiculous.
Yes, my invention is unintentionally sexist :) I'm hoping to settle on a design that accommodate women as well.
Personally, I find that, if taught properly, anybody can play without a shoulder rest. However, some people really can't play with one without causing discomfort or pain. While I don't believe any teacher should require a student play with or without one, I find that teachers who require students to play without one do less damage than those who require students to play with one.
Chiente
Best way to evolve your shoulder rest set is by throwing it out of the window...
I keep throwing it out but it's just there again in the morning...