Why Read Fantasy?: A reaction to Salman Rushdie’s essay “Wonder Tales”
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- Опубликовано: 5 сен 2024
- In this reaction to Salman Rushdie's essay "Wonder Tales," published in the essay anthology Languages of Truth, I explore how fantasy conveys important "truths" and also take on the issue of "genre fiction" versus "literature".
Philip: *Gives well thought out explanation with nuance and grace using an essay as an example*
Me: You should read fantasy because it's f'n awesome.
This is why I watch.
That too! Fantasy is f'n awesome, so you're right! Same idea, slightly different wording. But we speak the same language, my friend!
What a great comment! I LOLd 😂
I am with you on this one 😉😆 that is the only 'excuse' needed 😎
Now this is a fun topic, and it is one that I would guess that you and I have been involved in for several decades now.
We've been fighting the good fight for a while, haven't we? I would love to speak with you in detail about Rushdie's essay the next time we chat. I have a feeling you could add a lot to what I've said here.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy that can be arranged.
@@ACriticalDragon Excellent! Thus it shall be!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy And we would most certainly enjoy listening in on that, if you would deem us worthy, that is. That fight, I think, is one we all have shared, who enjoy fantastic fiction. Alas, now we can send Dr. Fantasy and Prof. Fireballs into the fray. Real Academics with not at all ridiculously made-up sounding titles!
@@Rurtanar We’ve recorded our discussion, which will be out on A.P.’s channel this coming Friday, I think. Spoiler alert: Professor Fireballs doesn’t hold back on his true feelings.
GRRM, quoting Faulkner, often says that “the only thing worth writing about is the human heart in conflict with itself.” No genre has a monopoly on that.
I wholeheartedly agree! In fact, I dare to assert that fantasy does an excellent job of including the human heart in conflict with itself.
Ann Rice has been quoted as saying something like “where is it written that a small town college professor going through a divorce is the only legitimate subject for a novel?” She has a point.
@@rickfairfax9631 I completely agree with her!
"That perhaps is why people are so ready with the charge of ‘escape’. I never fully understood it till my friend Professor Tolkien asked me the very simple question, 'what class of men would you expect to be most preoccupied with, and hostile to, the idea of escape?' and gave the obvious answer: jailers."
C.S. Lewis, "On Science Fiction."
Brilliant! Three cheers for the Inklings!
I agree wholeheartedly. This attitude of "entertaining" versus "important" literature is very common in my country, and it does nobody any good.
I would also chip in that "realism" is a misnomer, in a sense. Fiction labelled as realist remains fictional. There is nothing more real about its characters and situations, they are imagined by their author from their perspective and are not objective representations of life. A "realist" book that is written with poor understanding of human nature is not close to the truths of our experience.
That is an excellent point, Igor! You're so right about the misleading nature of the label "realism." Fiction is fiction. Some fiction involves a little more imagination than others, but all fiction is a lie that conveys truth. The very best stories, I think, are both entertaining and important.
So the story of wizard that goes to a magic school is as real as that of fictional soldier during the struggles of WW2. I am sorry but realist fiction is also a way to educate people about real events and people through stories. Some fantasy intends to merge both, like The Chronicles of Narnia
@@thesdjjms a "realist" author might fail in their research. What's more, most literature set in our world isn't historical, and education is not its purpose.
Goes to show that a kind, thoughtful tone can really disguise some verbal haymakers. "Guaranteeing the irrelevance of the kind of literature that Rushdie actually wants people to read." Damn, go off Philip!
Ha ha! There's actually a lot in the essay that I agree with -- the vast majority of it, in fact. But that point of disagreement is an important one for me, and I do believe we academics especially are guilty of inspiring generations of students to hate literature by telling them how important it is without telling them how fun it is.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy I have a degree in English and I think I definitely fell for the false dichotomy back in college. I felt like I had to either read the classics (which are great) or indulge in "escapist" fantasy (which is also great). Such nonsense! I robbed myself of so much. No reason I couldn't have been enjoying the Wheel of Time at the same time as The Old Man and the Sea! I also just love that your video isn't even coming from a defensive position for fantasy. It's more turning things around on more traditional fiction and asking it not to take itself too seriously, since that can be off-putting in some ways. Had never really seen it that way before. Awesome stuff.
@@Jabberwhorl_Cronstadt Thanks, Jake! To be fair to your college self, that attitude of separation between “genre fiction” and “literature” is so entrenched in our culture - especially in academia - that there was almost no way you could have helped absorbing it. I’ve certainly been guilty myself on many occasions of unthinkingly reinforcing it.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy That's so kind of you to say! In all honesty, I was also at my most pompous in my college days lol. Life humbles you I suppose. If you're lucky!
@@Jabberwhorl_Cronstadt Indeed! Life teaches a lot of lessons, especially if you’re willing to listen. I too had an inflated sense of my knowledge back in my college days. It turns out that knowing more gives you a sense of just how little you know.
Everything we encounter, to include reading, changes us in some respect. We can't not change. Even an attempt not to change changes us. The best we can do is to choose, as best we might, what we expose ourselves to and in that way we can exert some small control over what changes us and how.
This is true! All those encounters with stories nudge us in little - and sometimes not so little - directions. They’re just like any other journey, at the end of which we feel a bit different. So, I suppose we should choose our journeys wisely!
Great breakdown Mr. Chase. Have been a long time lurker in the comments section and your video has urged me to comment. I think you make your points excellently with great respect for where Rushdie is coming from while also being clear about the benefits of genre fiction. I grew up listening to the tales of the Mahabharata and the Ramayana and these stories - myth, fantasy and their variations have deeply affected my thinking and my values. There is something inherently moral about most good fantasy - the stoicism of the Lord of the Rings, the Empathy, compassion and acknowledgement of the cyclical nature of history we see in The Malazan Book of the Fallen or the ability to soldier on and do the right thing in the face of devastating personal tragedy - a common theme of Robin Hobb's fiction. As Steven Erikson himself mentioned in one of your discussions with him and AP Canavan - he despairs of ever being considered in the same league as a "literary" author and I think that such change is either slow in coming or, perhaps may never come at all - but it is good to hold out hope. I have found The Malazan books to be a greater deterrent to war and aggression in my own thought process than almost everything I have read in my life , excepting for the Mahabharata itself perhaps.
Salman Rushdie is a brilliant author, however I have never managed to complete Midnight's Children. I read and completed The Moor's Last sigh - it is certainly, in my estimate the superior book and a lot more fantastical than even Midnight's children. It is also an extended love letter to the city of Mumbai in parts.
Another recommendation I would like to give you, since you are deeply interested in challenging fantasy is The Dark Star Trilogy by Marlon James. This is a writer who is considered "Literary" by the establishment who wears his genre influences on his sleeve - would love to see what you think of "Black Leopard Red Wolf" - its one of my favourite books.
Thank you, Pranav, for this excellent comment, which makes me happy that you moved from lurker to commenter for this one! Beautifully said about Lords of the Rings, Malazan, and Realm of the Elderlings and what these stories offer us. One interesting thing to me is that the authors of these amazing series are very much like Rushdie in that they take inspiration from ancient tales and myths, such as the incomparable Mahabharata. That is something I would like to celebrate -- our multiple responses to the great stories that address the human condition. "Genre fiction" and "literature" are labels that create the incorrect perception of some fundamental difference. All stories, whatever we call them, have the capacity to simultaneously perform several functions, such as entertaining us while enlightening us. Midnight's Children, which I did finish and consider a marvelous book, has violence, sex, and sometimes crude humor -- things we associate with "genre fiction". And it's a good thing it has these elements because they make the book fun to read while we digest those themes that Rushdie so skillfully gets across. Thanks also for the recommendation of The Dark Star Trilogy!
I tried Black Leopard Red Wolf but didn't finish. James lost me somewhere along the way; not exactly sure why. (It didn't help that it was marketed as Game of Thrones with African roots; everything was some kind of GoT back then... Ian McDonald's Luna series is GoT on the Moon!) What's ironic is that some reviewers ascribe increasing empathy as a quality of his work, but he may be an anti-Erikson in that regard.
Here he is in conversation with Tochi Onyebuchi:
TO: (...) When you’re reading a book, and you’re cognitively living in the space of the characters, you may not necessarily feel the type of moral empathy that gets you like out in the streets afterwards. But you have this cognitive empathy. So there are like these two dimensions of empathy (...)
MJ: ...Because it’s always been my sort of pet peeve, empathy, which I actually don’t believe in.
TO: Interesting. Just like, at all?
MJ: I think empathy as a force of change is a very silly idea. [Looks to crowd.] It got so quiet.
www.tor.com/2020/02/18/watch-marlon-james-and-tochi-onyebuchi-interview-each-other-about-almost-everything/
@@marsrock316 I think it’s marketing is a lot like A24 movies in that regard. The movies are fantastic arthouse films for the right person, but man do they have bad trailers for their films (calling Hereditary this generations Exorcist!) Tbf I tried BLRW, but put it on the back burner as I’m in the mood for something not so challenging at the moment. Excited to get back to it though
Thank you for making this argument so eloquently. though honestly it's a lot nicer than the way I usually reply to similar sentiments. I'm just tired of this same argument in different clothes, where one group sees their section of some media as somehow more worthy of artistic merit, praise and analysis than the rest.
whether its:
"Literature" vs genre,
Novels vs Comics,
Movies vs TV,
"Cinema" vs the blockbuster and the popular,
even something like looking down on video games as a story telling meduim.
they all seem to me to come from the same seed of elitism common among those that want to see their tastes and works as somehow better than others
I think you're right. There's the classic bully move of putting down someone else to make oneself feel better/smarter/tougher. What I would like people to recognize is that all stories have the potential to both entertain and enlighten. Yes, these things might happen in different proportions according to the skill and desire of the storyteller, but stories all belong to the same species.
Philip, this was so thought-provoking! I loved all the quotes you shared and your critique of Rushdie's stance against genre fiction. I'll have to read this essay, though I couldn't agree more with everything you said. Your channel shows many of us in the community how our passion for reading fun fantasy books can be enriched through critical exploration. Thank you for another meaningful discussion!
Thank you, Johanna! Rushdie's position on genre fiction is, I think, the knee-jerk, default position that people tend to believe because they've heard it so many times. Even in the case of something like Twilight, I bet most people who mock it have not actually read it. I wonder if Rushdie has actually read it? As reviews and discussions on your channel have shown, fantasy has the capacity to convey important truths while entertaining us and even sometimes touching the sublime.
As a long time reader of 'magical realism' 15 Haruki Murakami books read and as a new reader to fantasy this year (apart from LOTR ASOIF and Harry Potter) with 40 books under my belt so far I could not say I prefer one over the other, or that one is better written or the stories are more important or meaningful or more entertaining. I think there is a lot of snobbery about literature in general especially from people who read literary fiction or classic novels, which are actually my most read genres however it doesn't mean that my favourite classic is 'better' than my favourite fantasy or magical realism book, merely that they are different and tell their stories in a different way.
Excellent video Philip thank you, it was thought provoking for me. 🤓
I could not have said it better, Tracey! People like you show that it's possible to read books from "the classics" and "genre fiction" while appreciating and enjoying them all. Stories have a lot to offer us. Some offer more entertainment, some more depth. But that doesn't mean that stories that entertain can't have depth, or that stories with depth can't entertain.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy exactly that and put in a far more succinct way than I rambled.
@@yorkshirelasstracey5383 I thought you put it beautifully!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Thank you.
Great video Philip! Echoes my own thoughts. Kindly imagine this comment continuing into a very clever argument.
Thank you! The cleverness of the argument in my imagination is overwhelming!
Thanks so much for this. I think the point you make that insisting on the dichotomy does a disservice to ‘literary’ fiction is really important. It reminds me of the fate of classical music in the 20th century, where deeply serious composers such as Shostakovich, Vaughan Williams or Holmboe were treated with disdain by an elite of serialist composers whose rather rigid approach drove them into irrelevance. I’ve been guilty of a bit of snobbery in my time, but in particular following along with your work with A.P. on the Malazan books is helping to crystallize for me just how much value there is in work that could be the target of such snobbery- just as Rushdie says, they are becoming part of how I see the world, and I feel better for it.
Thank you, Tom! Your response means a lot to me. Like you, I've certainly had moments of snobbery that, in retrospect, I regret, so I'm certainly prepared to cut Rushdie some slack here. And his words about the stories we read becoming part of us are so brilliant and true. Yes, I believe we educators should start emphasizing not just how important great works of literature are but how much fun they are.
You have articulated so well in just twenty minutes the value of literature and fantasy literature in particular. I totally agree with you; I’m disappointed in Rushdie, given the stories he writes. His book “Enchantress of Florence” for example is pure fantasy as far as I’m concerned (it’s an outstanding book, by the way, and I highly recommend). He should know better.
I think many writers who make the distinction between literary and genre fiction should ask themselves: if the Iliad or Mahabharata were released today, would they disparage it out of hand as being just genre fantasy? Many of them would, quite frankly. None of this is to say that all books have equal literary or thematic value or that they communicate their message with equal effectiveness, but those value judgments should never be arbitrarily made based on what the setting happens to be. I don’t think that Twilight is as good as Malazan, for example (or even something like Harry Potter, which is a series whose function is more similar to Twilight’s) - but not because there are vampires and werewolves.
Beautifully said! I think Rushdie's position on genre fiction (at least in this essay) is the knee-jerk position that many people voice because they've heard it so many times. It also happens, in my opinion, to be tragically incorrect. Also, I completely agree with you about things like The Iliad -- in fact, I think it was Plato who dismissed The Iliad (in The Republic) as a bunch of lies, so criticism of "genre fiction" has been around for a long time!
Really enjoyed your break down here of Salman Rushdie's essay. As an avid reader of the Fantasy genre I was naturally inclined to agree with your arguments. That said, your analysis was very fair and thoughtful and I will look for this essay. Thanks for posting!
Thank you, Coby! Rushdie is an eloquent writer, and he writes a lot of great things in the essay about the importance of the fantastic in literature. That said, he also fell into what I think of as the common fallacy that there is some fundamental and irreconcilable difference between "genre fiction" and "literature". All stories have the capacity to entertain and enlighten, though in different proportions according to the skill and desire of the storyteller.
i just realized that i like it when you disgree with people. nice one!
Ha ha! It happens occasionally. Just look at the fireworks produced when my nemesis A.P. Canavan and I do some verbal sparring!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy those were great :D :D (and totally A.P.s fault, attacking unprovoked like that)
@@kifonis Naturally, as the aggrieved party, I concur with you! 😁
If I believe that "story" is not plot, but the change that occurs in the protagonist(s), I must also believe that story itself is not the trappings of plot. The core of what we seek and gain from story as humans can't actually be found in magic systems, world-building, political or religious systems, the existence of sentient non-humans, etc. Though, for some of us, it's clear that these additional elements not only aid our immersion, but help us to strip away the mundane of our day-to-day existence. Thereby, for those of us who feel this way, stories that include these elements provide easier--or even enhanced--access to the truth that is hidden in the Trojan horse of fiction. That's it. We get it better by rocking out with dragons and swords and orcs and shit. So what?
This, for me, is the beauty of fantasy fiction. An enhanced access to story. And a pretty frickin' awesome community of the likeminded is merely a bonus. It's simply a better vehicle for seeking truth (for me, as both a reader and a writer).
A fair and balanced analysis of Rushdie's essay, insightful distinctions, and an important stance, Philip. Thank you.
I slightly disagree in that I think you CAN find what you seek in worldbuilding, political systems, sentient non-humans, etc because in many cases, be they inspired by real world equivalents or not, they can make us think about real world aspects of our society, psychology, philosophy and the human condition as a hole, not to mention the fact that our imagination, creativity and empathy are greatly stimulated by fantasy especially and reading in general. In a way I think that's the entire point of speculative fiction as a hole.
@@JJJKKK445 my thoughts exactly. World building and other elements of fantasy can be one more path to the truth, a way to make us think about our own world.
@@JJJKKK445 Certainly don't disagree with what you're saying about how the elements of fantasy help us to think and relate. I consider the elements of fantasy as enhancements, often to the applicability of story to my own circumstance. And thereby elements that enhance and clarify my perception of the truth of story. Sorry if my initial comment came off as dismissive of what you (correctly, IMO) term "the entire point of speculative fiction." I am drawn to our genre *because of* this enhancement.
Thanks, Vaughn. I think you put it beautifully here. The Trojan dragon of fantasy, as it were. And, when I think of my favorite stories, they tend to be the ones that both entertain and enlighten. Not that I can't enjoy wrestling with something "drier" or have a great time with some more "frivolous," but the stories that move me most are the ones that generously perform the most functions, and all stories have the potential to perform these functions to varying degrees.
@@JJJKKK445 Well said, and I think everyone in this thread would agree that speculative fiction has a special ability to stimulate our imagination, creativity, and empathy through its imaginative elements. I'm not sure about Rushdie, but I suspect he might agree to some degree too!
I love this kind of video! You articulated the value of fantasy far more eloquently than I have had the pleasure to hear before. In my eyes, fantasy gives so many options. Everything 'real', plus fantastical elements that can be used to enhance an array of emotions or messages or intentions.
Will
Well said, Will! You don’t have to look any further than your father’s books for evidence of what you’re talking about. So many important things are articulated through fantasy.
Great Video Phillip! Agree with you on all points, I believe that any “genre” book is capable of teaching you and changing you, and any classic or literary book is capable of entertaining you. I think Genre after all doesn’t really mean too much, it’s just a way of grouping stories with somewhat similar elements together.
That's it in a nutshell, Nicolas. You pretty much summed up my twenty minute ramble in two sentences -- nicely done!
Thank you so much for this. I understand Rushdie's points. As an academic I am tempted to sigh and say 'boy do I ever' understand. During my studies I never read fantasy - or so I thought. Now I have a knee-jerk reaction to genre distinctions. (I guess all my years a the University were wasted: I have become an apostat :). So I agree with your comments.
I don't care anymore. Life is too short. Whether I am reading Elie Wiesel, Dostojevskij, Faulkner, Shakespeare, Allende or Eriksen, I look for two things: good writing and a good story. Above all the story. Take me to another place. Guide me through your universe. When it works for me, the story hits a sweet spot for me. If I fall in love with both the writing and the story, I am close to heaven. And you know what? Then genre means nothing.
To quote from one of my favorite TV show (ach she is a sinner haha): "Our whole lives are stories". Can we leave it there and just enjoy the ride?
Beautifully said! Genre means nothing, while the story means everything. That seems a good recipe to me to enjoy one's reading journeys to the fullest. And, while I don't know what the TV show is, I appreciate the wisdom you've shared from it!
Vikings?
@@marsrock316 exactly :)
This reaction felt like it resolved itself into a sort of mission statement, and I am 100% here for it. I think your advocacy for fantasy as literature is really valuable, and what you say about how labels can be harmful and gatekeep in both directions is so true.
Thank you, Steve! I’m passionate about fantasy, which is an incredibly diverse genre that performs a large variety of functions, from entertainment to poignant exploration of the human experience. It’s a shame that people as smart as Rushdie apply labels in a pejorative and scattershot manner that willfully ignores the value of what they’re thumbing their noses at. He clearly understands the value of the fantastic, which makes his dismissal of an entire genre more egregious. Thanks for watching!
Thank you. Just that.
And thank you -- much appreciated!
Thank you for this interesting video. I concur that there are these continuums of intent. Too often we rely on binary systems rather than embracing the greys. We pigeonhole things into simple categories: good/bad, safe/dangerous, us/other. I think part of that stems from evolution where survival requires an ability to quickly recognize threats. Animals (including humans) rely on pattern recognition and categorization to make sense of the world and make rapid decisions. How many of us have panicked when a rope is mistaken for a snake? Unfortunately, our tendency for categorization breaks down when we explore ideas and concepts, including literature.
Excellent insight, Francois. I agree with you that our tendency to divide our experience of the world into binaries is likely related to our evolution in some way. It's a survival mechanism that, ironically, might be one of the greatest dangers to our existence, especially as it has a tendency to reinforce our delusions about ourselves and others.
Great breakdown, Philip! I don't really understand the kind of snobbery that always comes with the literature/genre fiction argument, but it rankles the inner revolutionary with me. I just re-read an article from 2015 in the Guardian of the writer trashing Terry Pratchett as not worth reading compared to 'literary' authors like Gabriel Garcia Marquez. Ugh.
You're much more eloquent than my 'drag them the the center of Paris' rhetoric would be. 😛
Insulting Sir Terry? Them’s fightin’ words! Bullies come in many forms, but they all have one thing in common: the pathetic desire to make themselves feel or look better by putting others down. Thanks for watching, buddy!
Great lecture Professor! Wish there had been professors like you in the English / Lit dept when I was in college, I may have taken more than just the required minimum of English courses.
Thank you, Paul! That’s a wonderful compliment!
What gorgeous quotes by Rushdie and excellent interpretations by Chase. As a fantasy lover I felt in my heart all the mentioned sentiment, but was never able to put them into words. Excellent video, thank you.
Thank you! Rushdie is an excellent writer, and he wrote a lot of beautiful things about the fantastic in the essay.
I enjoyed your thoughts on this essay, and like you fully agree with the notion that a work of fiction often contain truths we base our reality on. Also like you, I disagree with the notion that a less well written story has no value. As a highly *UN*educated person (I left school at 16), I've long thought that stories, written, spoken, performed, or sung, are a necessary part of forming our societies. Fiction exposes us to 'difference', and without that, forming an empathetic ability is difficult. Fantasy in particular gives people a way to consider racism, sexism, classism, and many other 'isms' without coming up against ingrained mental bulwarks against those things.
My absolute favourite quote on the topic is Sir Terry Pratchett, in Hogfather (speech in all caps is the character of DEATH)
- “All right," said Susan. "I'm not stupid. You're saying humans need... fantasies to make life bearable."
REALLY? AS IF IT WAS SOME KIND OF PINK PILL? NO. HUMANS NEED FANTASY TO BE HUMAN. TO BE THE PLACE WHERE THE FALLING ANGEL MEETS THE RISING APE.
"Tooth fairies? Hogfathers? Little-"
YES. AS PRACTICE. YOU HAVE TO START OUT LEARNING TO BELIEVE THE LITTLE LIES.
"So we can believe the big ones?"
YES. JUSTICE. MERCY. DUTY. THAT SORT OF THING.
"They're not the same at all!"
YOU THINK SO? THEN TAKE THE UNIVERSE AND GRIND IT DOWN TO THE FINEST POWDER AND SIEVE IT THROUGH THE FINEST SIEVE AND THEN SHOW ME ONE ATOM OF JUSTICE, ONE MOLECULE OF MERCY. AND YET-Death waved a hand. AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED.
"Yes, but people have got to believe that, or what's the point-"
MY POINT EXACTLY.”
I think this is my favorite book of his. Possibly for this dialogue alone.
Thank you for this, Derri! For one thing, you've strengthened my resolve to read more books by Pratchett. "The place where the falling angel meets the rising ape" -- brilliant. By the way, there are many ways of being educated. One of the smartest, most grounded, and most empathetic persons I know is a friend who left high school as soon as he could to become a blacksmith. We are absolutely on equal footing when it comes to almost any topic -- except blacksmithing, where I'm a dummy. Thanks again for your lovely comment!
I got as much from Bolaños’s 2666 as I got from the Far Seer Trilogy. I learned just as much about the cruelties and pointlessness of war from Tree of Smoke and Matterhorn as I am from the Malazan novels. All these works address truth, conflict, the human heart, certainly in different ways, but they still “spoke” to me.
@@ReadingAde Exactly, and well said! They are all stories that convey important insights about life, and they are all entertaining as well. What we label them matters less than what they do.
Thanks for this very interesting video.
On a side note: i saw Mark Lawrence post this on his Facebook page. I thought that was cool :)
Thanks for letting me know, Saeed - I actually hadn’t known that about Lawrence, but it’s cool to hear it!
Really well done. Interesting and engaging throughout, and in a single take! I've been going through a bunch of your videos recently, and I love how you manage to make serious, intelligent critiques without even the slightest hint of pretension. This is a wonderful combination.
Whether something is "serious" or "valuable" has much more to do, I think, with HOW a thing is read, rather than what thing is actually read. As an english professor, I'm sure you know that even smart college students are capable of superficial readings of the deepest works of fiction. They're also capable of deep readings of what many would consider "superficial" works!
Perhaps fantasy makes superficial readings easier, because they tend to be faster paced and easier to read than many works of "serious literature," but whether or not a thing is easy to read has nothing to do with its worth or value to a reader.
That’s an excellent point, Tyler, and I wish I had made it! You’re absolutely right that so much depends on how the reader approaches the book. After all, the story doesn’t “happen” on the ink-stained pages bound together between two covers, but rather in the mind of the reader. Thanks for the excellent contribution to this discussion!
Literature in general is an opinion (my point of view as a reader), fiction or non fiction. I mean the writer has the capacity to describe a event (real or not) into a story, if it is a real event is just a version of it, just one side of the story, which in some cases could be fictionalized a little bit (depends of the writer) and a good writer has the ability to fill the empty spaces and use the imagination to tell the story. So dismissed the quality of a literary genre vs another is like dismissed the quality of literature in general Does not matter the genre of preference but does matter the love of reading. As always great video!!!
Very well said! In dismissing the escapism and entertainment value of stories, one would be dismissing a vast part of what makes literature so important. Thanks so much for watching!
Oh no, I totally missed this video last month!
Anyway, I completely agree with everything you said here. I personally have read almost exclusively genre fiction (mostly fantasy) and I honestly feel like I have learned a lot from reading those books. I would even go so far as to say that the fantasy genre is the best genre to explore certain difficult/important themes, because you can view them through a new, fresh lense and there is of course the element of entertainment which can lighten up the tone/mood.
Thank you for making this video, I loved this little discussion! :)
Thank you, Esmay! It’s safe to say we’re in the same boat when it comes to fantasy being an ideal vehicle for exploring difficult themes. It’s excellent to hear your thoughts, as always!
Thank you so much for engaging with this topic -- it is a wonderful service to sff lovers out there who feel marginalized or to those who have been persuaded to avoid all of these books by elitist/hypocritical critics or authors (or by just the general sense of literary elitism in the cultural air, which maybe gets perpetuated most by high school English lit curricula, where the only fantasy or sci-fi is not named as such and is limited to Shakespeare, Orwell, or Homer which many teenagers in recent times don't connect with so well).
I also left a long comment for both you and AP in the video on his channel that I also hope you'll see!
I completely agree with you, of course, and it’s a terrible shame that teachers, whose role is supposed to be to inspire, are often part of the problem. I will look for your comment on A Critical Dragon when I go to watch the video. Thanks, Benjamin!
“The story telling animal”. I’ve never heard that but I love it. I agree mostly but I do read fantasy to escape lol. I had strong feelings of ASOIF. I loved the political dynamics in it and how dark the characters could be and it felt real. I’m currently going thru that with the poppy war trilogy. I was here on RUclips watching videos on the sino Japanese wars, Chinese civil wars, and opium wars. I love what kuang did by mixing history and magic.
Wonderful video once again!
Thanks, Michelle! My feeling is there's nothing wrong with reading to escape. In fact, to a certain degree, it's actually very healthy. Though I had some relatively minor criticisms of it, I liked the Poppy War Trilogy for some of the same reasons you mention.
Fantastic video Philip, wink.
Enjoyed your thoughts on this and I appreciate your explanation of it being a spectrum. So true. All literature fits in this spectrum. We can have a comedy that hits deeply because it covers a tragedy. Or, we can have an awesome fantasy epic that explores mental health issues and the self.
So, yes. Thank you for the video.
An irresistible pun! I just read a fantasy that explores mental health issues very effectively, so you’re absolutely right. Thanks for watching and commenting, Vic!
I wish we hadn’t replaced bookcraft with literature. I think I may use the OE word again. ;) of course using both is fine
I love it! "Bookcraft" is devoid of the snobbery often implied in "literature".
Read what makes you happy. You can learn something from reading anything. The important thing is to develop a love for reading and it will broaden your awareness of things around you no matter what genre as it all uses ideas from this world.
Well said! Read, and read broadly, but follow your bliss.
The master of the twenty minute video essay did it again! Excellent defense of fantasy literature in all it's facets. But this makes it the video that's hardest for me to comment on as I agree so much with what you say. So not much of a discussion here from my side. So instead a book recommendation and a question.
Antonio Damasio's The Feeling of what Happens gives a neuro-science approach to us as the story telling animal and that possibly our only way to generate a sense of self are the stories we tell ourselves.
The question: If Rushdie does a disservice to all literature by distinguishing between literature proper and genre fiction and by ascribing different functions to each, are we Malazan fans doing a disservice to Erikson by constantly pointing out how different his writing is from other fantasy fiction? Do we perpetuate Rushdie's argument and turn Erikson into the fantasy-readers broccoli?
First, thank you for the recommendation! The Feeling of What Happens sounds like the sort of non-fiction I would enjoy a lot. Now, about the question of "broccolizing" Erikson (for the record, I actually like broccoli): The cool thing about Malazan is that it has the depth to support hours and hours of discussions about themes and so forth, but it also has what my friend Iskar Jarak refers to as "lasers and fireballs". When I'm discussing the Malazan books with A.P., he and I tend to focus on the themes more than the explosions, but there are many great videos where people gush about the latter. And sometimes we pause to talk about the explosions too! For me, it would be hard to come up with a story that better hits the sweet spot of having both depth and entertainment value. Others may prefer those elements in different proportions, of course, and there's nothing wrong with that. Thanks for the great question as well!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy I think you're right. One would have to have a very specific or narrow reading taste to not find something to relate to or find engaging in Malazan. As I say there isn't much of an argument here as I completely agree with you (even on the broccoli question, I like it too).
If you think you might enjoy that type of non-fiction than you might find the one I just started interesting as well. Because why should your videos only make my tbr grow?
Richard Sorabji: Self. Ancient and Modern Insights about Individuality, Life and Death.
The author claims to bring together Ancient Greek with East Asian philosophies. Can't say much about it yet as I'm only a couple of pages in but at least it sounds promising.
@@brush2canvas849 Oh, now that too sounds like a winner! You are destroying my TBR! But I’m glad you like broccoli too 😁.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy In Malazan and broccoli we unite! Happy reading!😄
Still catching up on a bunch of Booktube, so just watched this now. This was a great discussion. I do understand why many people feel the need to make the distinction, as author intent concerning how “literary’’ a work will be can obviously vary significantly. But often, this is simply a matter of degree; as with most things, labels that attempt to establish bright lines of demarcation seldom work. You also make an excellent point about the damaging effect the labels can have on the perceived accessibility of “literary fiction” by would-be readers. We don’t want people to forget that, when you sprinkle a little “fantasy” cheese on that broccoli and cook it in the oven, it tastes pretty damn good, even though it’s good for you.
I love your analogy! Fantasy cheese on the broccoli - perfect. Also, for the record, I actually do like broccoli. And cheese. 🥦 🧀 Cheers!
I really enjoyed this video. Thanks for posting.
R. Scott Bakker has written some great blog posts and essays about the importance of fantasy and other genre fiction. One of the points he's made repeatedly is that genre fiction reaches out, it attracts a variety of readers with a variety of different backgrounds and beliefs and because of this, genre fiction has the potential to challenge those beliefs, to get the audience to think about things. Fantasy (genre fiction) is where you will find Literature.
His essays "The Future of Literature in the Age of Information", "The Skeptical Fantasist: In Defense of An Oxymoron", "Thou Shalt Not Suffer Fantasy" and "Alas Poor Wallace: A Review of Infinite Jest" and his blog posts "The Myth of the Vulgar Cage (II)" and "Doughnuts for the Heart, Broccoli for the Soul" all touch on his ideas about genre fiction and fantasy and they are worth googling an checking out.
Thank you! Bakker’s The Darkness that Comes Before is something I hope to read before this year ends. It sounds like his essays are also very much worth reading - I appreciate you supplying those titles!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasyYou're welcome. I hope you like The Darkness That Comes Before. I'm a huge fan of the series. I've read nothing else like it.
@@jasonep2 From what I’ve heard, I’m betting that I’ll like it.
I believe that any reading of any genre is good. It feels like less and less people are interested in reading books, and we shouldn't scoff at anyone's reading tastes. I've received plenty of that in my time. Lol
So true! Let's celebrate reading first. Any reading. Well said!
I might want to add that, even if Rushdie is correct, literature functions differently in different people's lives.
Some people are Olympic athletes running a marathon and they look down on people who jog for an hour on the weekend. But why?
For you, running is your life, your income, your profession. For those other people it is enjoyment and a way to stay moderately not un-fit.
And there is a whole spectrum in between, PLUS readers of less "serious" literature might get in the habit of reading and slowly grow into more "serious" literature.
Or people can enjoy both.
Or the literature can grow in meaning for a culture: Shakespeare and Dickens were considered cheap pulp in their own days, now they are required reading for an English major.
Exactly! I could not agree more with your comment. It's sad that so often people feel compelled to praise something they like by crapping all over something that other people like. Why not appreciate "literature" for the great truths it conveys and appreciate genre fiction for its entertainment value? And, at the same time, let's recognize that great "literature" also needs to be entertaining to some degree (Midnight's Children, for example, has sex, violence, and humor), while genre fiction also can convey great truths. And, yes, "the Bard" wanted to sell tickets to fill his theater, not become some idolized literary figure associated with foul-tasting medicine and broccoli.
I can credit Twilight for getting me into reading back when I was 11/12. Now I wasn’t reading it to explore its themes back then, but I agree that surely there is some enlightenment there, since most if not every writing will have a truth.
Love the comparison of literature to medicine or broccoli, cause it is surely more than that. I may give this a read!
And that's an extremely important function of books like Twilight -- getting people into reading. I think Harry Potter is similar, or Percy Jackson, or any number of "YA" books. It would be terribly mistaken to dismiss that function as trivial. Great point, Liam!
Great lecture. I have Midnight's Children on my tbr and plan to get to it this year.
I have been looking for some nonfiction science fiction/fantasy related works such as essays. I am going to look deeper into this collection. Do you happen to have any more recs of sff related essays?
Midnight's Children is fantastic. As for essays like this, you probably know it, but I highly recommend Tolkien's "Essay on Fairy Stories." Stephen King has a book on writing too that might fit the bill. I also recommend Ursula Le Guin's "From Elfland to Poughkeepsie." And I believe Stephen Donaldson has an essay related to this, but I don't know the title off the top of my head. That's just a start, really, and I bet many of our favorite authors have essays on the topic.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Thanks for the recs. Completely forgot about LeGuin's essays. Sounds exactly like what I am looking for.
I very much agree with you. There're no barriers that prevent fantasy literature from exploring deeper subjects. Counterintuitively people often end up searching for deeper meaning in the pursuit for escapism. That's why the dichotomy of learning and entertainment shouldn't exist, in my opinion.
Very well said, Eddie! I like your point about the search for deeper meaning as a consequence of escapism. In escaping, we let our minds wander in places that, down the road, may result in creative insights and epiphanies.
Well done, Philip! I wonder if Rushdie has read either Twilight or The Hunger Games. I know he’s read the Harry Potter series, and given all the complex themes within those stories, I also wonder if he thought of the young wizard when making his argument there. I have read the first Twilight book, and while not for me, that first book had some interesting truths about the ‘typical’ western world teenage girl. I have read The Hunger Games and there so much going on in those books regarding human greed, blood lust, war, how war ruins lives, ptsd, and so much more. Both series of books are easy scapegoats, though, but I think that arguing on their behalf shows that even these “low brow” forms of literature have important things to say regarding our place in the universe. Great discussion!
That's beautifully said, Jason! I'm glad you commented on The Hunger Games here to mention that it does, in fact, perform to some degree at least some of the functions we ascribe to "literature". Rushdie does mention Harry Potter in a positive light in the essay during a part of the essay where he is talking about children's books that tap into the imagination. I think someone could easily point out his inconsistency on this issue, though there's a lot to love in the essay too.
I tried reading the Satanic Verses about 10 years ago. I found his writing beautiful when i absorbed it but i had rereading chapters because i just wasn't absorbing what he trying to say. I want to read his essay in full now.
It is very much worth reading Rushdie's essay. He's a great author whose books I would like to read more of.
This may be premature and incorrect as I haven't read the essay myself, but it seems Rushdie got on a bit of a high horse to toot his own horn - a weakness shared by multiple lauded writers, or artists in general.
I've read several of his books, enjoyed them a lot. But they just as easily could have been placed on the SFF shelves in the bookstore.
Humans are very interesting in how we need to box and label stuff in order to comprehend it. Even more interesting is the need to then make value judgements on those boxes in order to validate personal preferences and life choices. E.g. 'fantasy is bad' because 'I never chose to read or write it'.
That's where the problems start, making value judgements - if we can just learn to appreciate or at least respect there are many choices to be made and a lot of people will make different choices for differing reasons, and none of those choices take anything away from your own.. we could make some real progress.
Great talk Philip! Thanks.
Wise words, Paul! I agree that Rushdie’s books would be right at home on a SFF bookshelf. In fact, they might find themselves in excellent company. And you’re also right about our compulsions to categorize, separate, and judge. Such compulsions might give the illusion of understanding, but they also discourage complexity and nuance.
i left a comment yesterday but YT seems to keep deleting all of my comments :-D I really liked what you had to say, i hate the snobbish attitude towards 'genre fiction', i'm not sure if you read Sapiens but harari also talks about the importance of storytelling in the development of humankind, its very interesting. Great video Philip, and i have no idea who that one idiot who disliked it is :-D
Thanks, Larry! I seem to have a troll who dislikes every video I make - I’m taking it as a sign of success. Thank you for mentioning Sapiens. I have read it and enjoyed it very much. I’m also frustrated with RUclips for randomly deleting comments, but I’m so glad you came back and left it again. Now I hope RUclips won’t delete my reply!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy looks like we've made it haha
@@LarryHasOpinions Hooray!
Really starting to think I need to read more essays... Great video format and insights! I would be interested in your opinion on how/why fantasy is able to examine some themes better than your typical fiction or even nonfiction book. For me, that's where I see the real value add. The heightened danger/drama that being in life and death situations or higher emotional stakes than we see in more realistic fiction I think creates a more interesting backdrop to show off these themes. --Nat
Hello, Nat! I agree with you about the capacity within fantasy to provide a setting where higher emotional stakes and perilous events bring out important themes for us to wrestle with. You expressed that very well, and I can’t add much, but I will mention the often observed phenomenon of the psychic distance a fantasy world provides, enabling the reader to engage with issues that might be too painful in a “realistic” setting. Also, fantasy liberates the imagination more than any other genre. Thanks for the excellent comment!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Oh this is very true! As a reader we also benefit from the fantasy element!
There is a lot of snobbery against fantasy and sci-fi.
Unfortunately, publishers have enabled that for a long time. There is the generally poor quality of production. My Malazan softcovers from TOR and Bantam look like they have barely survived a hurricane, Dust of Dreams actually broke in half. My dtv and Fischer paperbacks of Siegfried Lenz, on the other hand, still look good, even though I bought them second hand. Then we have the editing. I see way more typos in most fantasy books, if I compare them with say, even my cheap edition of the Buddenbrooks. And for many years, cover art for fantasy was often very heavy on the chainmail bikinis and absurdly large swords (with a liberal helping of dragons in the background, even if no dragons featured in the text). All in all, it gave the books a "cheap feel".
Things are getting better, but for several decades, genre fiction often looked like pulp.
You make an excellent point that I did not address, Gerd. I agree with you that the publishers share some of the blame for the common disdain for genre fiction. Chainmail bikinis aren't conducive to serious discussions of thematic depth. Apparently, someone thought they would help sell books!
Agree with you on the prevalence of typos. My go to example is an edition of two Alastair Reynolds novellas that not only had typos, but also had passages that didn't even appear to be copyedited, garbled and badly parsed. And this was in a Subterranean Press book for $35, marketed as a prestige edition. For that price, I expect pristine text...
It's also a phenomenon that seems to pop up more often in e-books, which makes little sense, since you'd think digital type is much easier to control and fix than actual printing press type. Maybe it's just rushed sloppiness.
Ahhh interesting points! I would love to see more discussion around pulp and pulp-adjacent issues. My 9 yr old's favorite thing right now is John Carter of Mars and the Burroughs book, and I had a difficult time explaining to him why they, as fairly intentional pulp, could rankle some people's sensibilities despite them being potentially as large as an influence on Star Wars as Dune. And thinking to myself how superior I consider these works to all the Conan content in any format, and not being able to quite put my finger on why.
@@marsrock316 I don't read that many e-books, but a while ago, I got two titles from a german series that is sadly out of print (I somehow lost the print versions years ago, shame on me). It looked like they had just taken the unedited skript. Typos, grammatical errors, sentences stopping half-way. It was atrocious.
Great video, thanks!
I did read the Hunger Games, and i think it was worth the read. Not because of the story or plot or characters, but of the political implications in the worldbuilding. I guess i only wish the author had explored this more in stead of the romance (but that's just my taste).
Also i'm quite opposed to strict labels or boxes. I suffer from psychological claustrophobia (don't know if that term exists, but it should), not only in literature, but anything in life.
That being said, i think any form of speculative fiction is good for holding up the much needed laughing mirror (don't know if that's the correct word in english) to us and the world we live in.
You just added two excellent phrases to the English language: “psychological claustrophobia” and “the laughing mirror”. Beautifully said! All this time, I had assumed English was your first language, by the way. I’m glad to hear you say Hunger Games was worth reading. My younger daughter read it and felt the same (she also could have done with less of the romance).
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Did she say, "Ewww. Is this a kissing book?"
@@marsrock316 Ha ha! Pretty much!
This was an awesome discussion, thanks for making this video.
And I agree with you, I find the distinction between literary fiction and genre fiction (or magic realism and fantasy in this case) pretty arbitrary. I never understood where people who believe in that distinction draw the line between the two. For instance, Neil Gaiman's books seem to be pretty much at the "boundary" between the two where they are even being remarketed for literary fiction enthusiasts in some editionss. I find that people who try to make this decision come up with arbitrary conditions to define what works have more literary merit, but I never understood where those conditions come from. As you mentioned, genre fiction books also tend to explore thematic ideas the same way literary fiction does. You could even ask the question whether the genre fiction book shouldn't have more literary merit in this case because it can convey its themes in a more accessible way. Anyway, that is a rabbithole I don't want to go down 😅 I thoroughly enjoyed this discussion and appreciate that you are shining light on this topic.
Thank you! I’m glad you enjoyed the video, and I agree with what you articulate very well in your comment. Neil Gaiman’s books are a great example of something that falls in that fuzzy zone between these artificial labels. In fact, some of Gaiman’s books - American Gods, for example - accomplish something remarkably similar to what Rushdie’s books - Midnight’s Children, for example- accomplish. Both are masterpieces that incorporate major themes about personal and national identity while using strong fantastical elements. One is labeled fantasy and the other magic realism, showing how arbitrary the distinction can be.
I thoroughly agree with your commentary Philip. It seems like these distinctions between "literature" and genre fiction and reading for entertainment are particularly modern. I believe much of Dickens' work was serialized for popular consumption, yet today we regard it as literature. I wonder if David Copperfield and Great Expectations would be categorized as YA (or pretty much any coming-of-age story for that matter). The important thing, as Mike says on his Book Review channel, is that people are reading. If people are engaged in reading, no matter what labels others put on it, they may very likely make their way to read Rushdie's or Faulkner's work. As you said, this attitude does a disservice to the very stories that Rushdie is championing. I've heard similar arguments about Film versus TV, with the latter being the pulp or "genre fiction" when in fact, they are both using the same type of visual medium to tell human stories.
My favorite part of your video Philip, was when you encouraged viewers to read the essay and decide for themselves.
Thank you, Danie! I agree with you that this is an especially modern conversation -- it's a conversation that would not have occurred a few hundred years ago, most likely. And, yes, even though I study stories for a living, my reaction to Rushdie's essay is just one person's reaction. It's really important, I think, for people to form their own ideas about this and many other topics by being as informed as possible. Cheers!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy, as you said, if you haven't read something, you can't really comment on it. So, to quote Mike, "Read and find out!"
On a side note, I'm working on an article for a "Public and Professional Writing" course about makerspaces in higher education. I have a section that discusses the idea of virtual making and creating and I talk about BookTube. I would like to get permission to include this video in the article because I think it's a great illustration of the interaction and collaboration that can be leveraged with RUclips. I also love BookTube and your channel and was happy to find a way to work it into my article ; )
@@crazy4cairns Permission granted! Sounds like a very cool project, and my best wishes for it.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Thanks so much! I'd be happy to share the finished article if you're interested.
@@crazy4cairns I’d love to see it - thank you! You could use my email to send it: philipchase90@gmail.com
1) Argument from authority, 2) False dichotomy.
Two strikes Salman, two strikes.
😂
Is A Midsummer Night's Dream genre fiction?
Well said, Paul! Shakespeare was an entertainer first and foremost. Like Rushdie, he used sex and violence in his fiction. He used humor -- often very crude. And, yes, both authors convey important truths at the same time.
A Fantastic video! Please do more videos of this nature.
Thank you! I just recorded a discussion with A.P. Canavan, whose channel is A Critical Dragon, on this same topic. The video will be out next Friday on his channel, most likely. The discussion is a bit more animated than this video since, as someone with a PhD in Fantasy Literature, A.P. has been dealing with the attitude Rushdie expresses for a long time.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Thank you for the tip. I shall be looking forward to it.
@@Wats06071 My pleasure!
Totally agree with what you've said - and the distinction is very damning and dangerous (and like you say, elitist) - I read more science fiction than fantasy, and to be fair, sometimes I read light fluffy stuff - but there are so, so many books I have read in these genres that have been deeply profound - Le Guin you mentioned; I would also add Ted Chiang to the mix too - as well as many others.
You’ve used the right words to describe the artificial distinction between “literature” and genre fiction: damning and dangerous. It’s bad for both in the end. Yes, some stories are more profound and well written than others, while others are more entertaining, but they’re all stories.
I've just added this book on my TBR! I've been wanting to watch this video for so long as it is a topic that highly interests me. Probably like many biased people, when I discovered my first classics (Les Misérables) I was so mesmerized by the quality and beauty of the prose that I thought I'd have no need to pick up contemporary novels ever again (that was indeed dramatic 🤦♀️). That was obviously a gross overgeneralization because I dismissed just like that the stories that had shaped me up until that point (Harry Potter & The Hunger Games first come to mind). Though I agree about Twilight having romanticized unhealthy relationship dynamics, there's nothing inherently wrong with the prose (which is age appropriate in my opinion, and that's why it didn't bother me as a teenager) and is creative while being familiar. It has not the ground-breaking originality of other works, but that wasn't the point, and as an entry point into Fantasy for younger readers it does feel fresh and new. Unfortunately, unless parents have meaningful conversations with their children about those books, teenagers could easily mistake obsession for love. And that confirms something that Rushdie seemed to miss: stories can have an escapist function, but no readers are ever completely passive, meaning that they put themselves in the shoes of the characters they're following and wonder what they would have done if they were in their place. If you're a mildly empathetic human being, you can't help doing that, and so your perception will be greatly influenced by your own values and life experiences. That's why teenagers and adults could read the same book and get widely different things from it (which is true of children too, of course). Stories evolve with their readers, and if those readers are willing to grow and learn and challenge their own belief system, they will get the most out of their reading experience. If those readers don't care about the Truth you talked about, they won't see it. They might be entertained, and maybe only want that, and so miss the opportunity of being transformed by those stories, which is in my opinion their most powerful purpose. And at every stage of life and depending on very complex individuals with their own tastes, core values and subjectivity, books can fulfill different needs, and that's why no one book can please everyone (and that's okay).
Beautifully said! I think you really make the case here for what I too believe - we need various levels of writing for various types of readers. What’s the point of putting down a story only because of the audience it’s aimed at? There are undoubtedly things that particular story does very well. Rushdie says some lovely things in this essay, but I wish he’d have been less dismissive of other stories and more generous in the acknowledgment of their kinship with what he does.
Despite the popularity of the fantasy genre, it's surprising how many look down on it. The idea that fantasy is escapism falls flat when we realise that anything that is not non fiction will have elements of escapism. Most fictions have a happy ending. How many stories in real life have those?
That is exactly right! All fiction contains lies that convey truth. Escaping is a vital part of storytelling.
Genre does not dictate quality. Every work of art deserves to be judged on own messages, ideas, and merits. Then you have to seperate your own subjective response. I am not a fan of 19th century works on upper-class mannerisms, but can acknowledge that Jane Austin is a good writer. Because I personally don't enjoy the subject matter does not mean that the work itself is without quality.
Well said, Seth, and I agree with each of your points. It would be a better world if we didn’t automatically judge books (and other people) by categories.
I'm late to this one but I often jokingly say that some writers are so desperate to pretend they're not writing 'genre fiction' that they either have to invent a new name for what they do - "magic realism" or pretend that they're taking on themes that genre writers don't - see Ian McEwan's comments on "Machines Like Me" - which implies that the writer concerned has never read any Fantasy or SF. It's the interesting way 'literary' writers - or their publishers - try to not look like they're writing genre fiction when they blatantly are. PS I know "magic realism" has its origins in writing from South America, India and Africa and is more than what I've mockingly decided it is.
Thanks, Tony. I agree with you about some people using labels to distance themselves from genre fiction, which indeed does seem disingenuous when the connections to genre fiction are so apparent. It’s actually rather sad. Great to hear your thoughts!
Entertainment is enlightenment, that’s the point. It’s easy to poke fun at commercially successful fiction, but some of it is good. Writers can be very insecure about their inability to entertain and often fold that into unfair criticisms against genre fiction.
Well said! Sometimes the lower the stakes are, the pettier people can get. Writers ought to be supporting and building each other, not tearing others down to stake out coveted territory.
Very interesting, thank you for your analysis. Rushdie is a very gifted writer but also a crashing snob. I say that because he is often on the telly in the UK and comes over as gifted but pompous. Mind you, a 10 yr Fatwa hanging over your head for writing a book is bound to make you opinionated. I thought magic realism was where reality cruising close to fantasy, but not fully toppling over a threshold.- Fevvers in Angela Carters Nights at the Circus, or a women giving birth to an iguana in 100 Yrs of Solitude. Very unlikely scenarios but all with a touch of the confidence trick, unreliable narrators etc. Anyway, thank you for your video and output generally. As a result of you and a couple of others on here, I'm reading and LOVING the Malazan series, so THANK YOU. I'm going to bed crazy early to get 2 hrs reading in before turning off the light!!
Thank you! Your definition of magic realism is pretty much my understanding of it. I also have a similar impression of Rushdie, who strikes me as a talented writer, even if he’s trying a bit too hard to assert how talented he is.
Right on! We don’t need to apologize for loving fantasy.
As you said, fantasy is the default mode of human imagination in pretty much every culture since the dawn of time. It’s only a very narrow substrate of fiction-literary fiction as defined by mid-20th century Western writers-that thumbed its nose at anything that uses mythology, folklore or other and preferred psychological realism. There was this need to define a thing called “magical realism” when Western critics “discovered” people of other cultures incorporating mythology and folklore in literary ways, as opposed to pulpy ways. The whole “high art vs. low art” debate is so dry and tired. Everyone has their own taste and preferences. If I don’t like The Fast and the Furious, I don’t go out and rant about it. I respond by doing what Neil Gaiman famously suggested, “Make good art.”
Rushdie had to cut his teeth in a literary world that was defined by the psychological realist and modernist ideal, and he’s still apologizing for it 40+ years later, apologizing for not being, I don’t know, Hemingway. He needs to get over it. F/SF have bled so completely into mainstream fiction, and literary fiction has bled so completely into F/SF. It’s all good!
Did you read Michael Chabon’s Comic-Con speech from a few years ago? I felt it was along similar lines, more so about comics, but he had a more positive spin about imagination and blowing people’s minds.
Thank you for this excellent comment! I completely agree with you about the best response to living in a world with many stories by storytellers with varying abilities. Neil Gaiman’s advice is usually solid. I haven’t read Chabon’s speech, but I’ll check it out. Thanks for the recommendation!
Well said. This reminds me of Martin Scorsese criticizing super hero movies as "not cinema." Unfortunately this is the typical old man "Get off my lawn" take that occurs far too often in elder authors and auteurs. I don't know that the "make believe" genres (fantasy, sci-fi, horror etc) will ever get the critical acclaim of "hard fiction" or whatever pretentious term is that the Harold Bloom's of the world want to call it. Fantasy novels still have merit in my opinion, and I think it was Junot Diaz who talked about the ability of fantasy/sci-fi as a genre to discuss the ideas of "power" and the implementations of that control in a way more grounded novels can't. Anyway I still like Rushdie, and I might be a little bitter too after being on the run from Cat Stevens for 30 years or whatever.
Did Scorsese say that? Disappointing. Junot Diaz, on the other hand, gets extra points in the respect department for his enlightened take. I too still like and respect Rushdie very much for his writing, though, and even for the majority of this essay.
An even more egregious example of condescension was Stephen Spielberg's statement that "Roma" was not a real movie because it was released on Netflix. Not only was Roma art (arguably high art), but Spielberg's offering that year was Ready Player One, a piece of unoriginal, derivative, and mercenary work. He then advocated rule changes for the Academy so that films like Roma couldn't even enter Oscar competition.
@@marsrock316 I hadn’t heard about that - Spielberg definitely deserves the naughty step!
Condescending is likely the best descriptor for Rushdie's attitude here. Writers with aspirations to high literature who use genre tropes seem to be afraid of being seen slumming.
It's happened before and likely will happen again. One instance is Kurt Vonnegut, who wanted to be a bestseller so much that he consciously repudiated his SF roots and essentially disrespected the fans that had championed him prior to shedding "the label of science fiction writer”: “I have been a soreheaded occupant of a file drawer labelled ‘science fiction’ … and I would like out, particularly since so many serious critics regularly mistake the drawer for a urinal.”
Vonneget wasn't wrong about the snobbishnes of establishment writers at the time, especially those who thought his sense of humor made him even less of a serious writer. So a novel featuring time travel, alien abduction, a flying saucer, another planet, and an alien zoo, becomes magical realism instead of SF.
Another candidate is Margaret Atwood, of whom I'm less forgiving. She has mocked SF as a genre ("talking squids in outer space"), while using its tropes liberally, all the while insisting on the term "speculative fiction" instead of science fiction. No less than Ursula Le Guin has criticized Atwood's stance: "This arbitrarily restrictive definition seems designed to protect her novels from being relegated to a genre still shunned by hidebound readers, reviewers and prize-awarders. She doesn’t want the literary bigots to shove her into the literary ghetto."
To a degree, I get the resistance to being categorized and supposedly shelved with genre authors of less credible reputations. But the attitude stems from ignorance of what science fiction and fantasy can do to explore the themes and subjects they are interested in. And of course it's still sneering and condescending, sniffing down from the lofty heights...
That’s sad about Vonnegut and Atwood, two amazing writers. Le Guin is my hero! Thanks for this comment, which I resonate with very much. I just had a great conversation with A.P. about this whole thing, and he gets more animated than I do about the issue. He mentioned Atwood but not Vonnegut. I think that video will be out next week at some point, likely Friday, on his channel.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy looking forward to it!
How does he define 'Magic Realism', is it strictly magic that exists in modern day, as written by the likes of Gaiman, Powers and Blaylock and is that fantasy or fable?
He doesn't define magic realism so much in this essay as worry that it might be tainted by fantasy. But I assume that he thinks of it as the intrusion of the fantastic into the mundane, or something along those lines. Sort of like in American Gods?
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy So a modern setting.
@@Paul_van_Doleweerd That seems to be the case - a lot like urban fantasy.
Magical realism has historically more to do with the literature from South America.
@@jeroenadmiraal8714 This is true. It’s also been used to describe stories by some South Asian authors like Rushdie.
I consider story to reach between the poles of the fantastic and the mundane. I tend to prefer the deep roots of fantastic literature to the fading, sepia-toned leaves of the modern fad of mundane literature. But to each their own. Different pens for different pokes, as they say.
Deep roots for me too! Beautifully said!
You're the first westerner I've come across who pronounces Mahabharat and Ramayan the correct way without adding the pointless "A" at the end of every Indic word, an idea which the British colonisers came up with!
I cheated by living in South Asia and learning Nepali! 😁
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Oh! Haha great! And loved your counter-arguments to Mr. Rushdie in this video.
@@collegestreetkolkata9669 Thanks! Rushdie is a great author, but I wish he’d be less dismissive of others. He doesn’t need to convince us he’s brilliant in that way.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Oh yes totally! I guess it's a personality trait. And perhaps because of that personality trait he was able to write Satanic Verses?
One day when you become a published author I will read anything you put out.
Thank you! I do hope to publish sometime within the next couple years. I’ve got four books written, and the first is in the best I can make it at this point. I’m doing a pass of book two now. We’ll see!
Did Salman have any examples in his essay of exceptions of what could be literary? Tolkien often gets a pass because of his credentials and linguistic skills and how he pulled from ancient -Fantasy- I mean classic mythology - but at the end of the day he still invented new worlds peopled with Elves, Orcs, Dragons, walking trees and Angels incarnate. Seems like what S.R. really wants to complain about is bad writing, but to marry that with imagining other realms and people while arguing in favor or a little of it seems like mental gymnastics to me.
Maybe we should start calling Fantasy "Realistic Magicalism" to help drive the point home! :P
I agree with you about the mental gymnastics! Rushdie mentions a few fantasy authors in a positive light, like Le Guin, and gives praise to some in the context of children’s literature, like Tolkien (for The Hobbit) and JK Rowling. He does not hint at his criteria for “good fantasy”, however. Yes, Realistic Magicalism!
@Philip Chase Ah; then he's also (perhaps accidentally) reinforcing the idea that exploring perilous new realms is appropriate for children but not for the more critical adult (unless they're reading to said child). Funny he mentions the Hobbit but not the Lord of the Rings - who's that appropriate for then? Maybe you have the slightest window to enjoy it when your 13 before you pack kids stuff away for real literature?
I hope he reads "On Fairy-Stories" someday. I've heard Le Guin has some excellent essays on the matter also.
@@MagusMarquillin Yes! Tolkien and Le Guin both have left eloquent thoughts on the topic of what we can gain from fantasy. Highly recommended essays!
Never understood the need to have a separate genre called Magic Realism and the need to distinguish it from fantasy. The definitions are so vague that many books qualify for both genres. Is Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norell Magical realism or Fantasy? What about Harry Potter or other low fantasy/Urban Fantasy?
If it's an attempt to have fantastical elements in their work and still be considered "serious literature" by some strange standard (Our books don't have dragons you know, we're very mature like that) then as you said, it's doing a disservice.
Very well said, Kakashi! There is no line we can draw between magic realism and fantasy. These are labels made up to assert superiority or for marketing purposes.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Definitely! If they do not like having the tag of being a fantasy book, why even have fantastical elements in the story!
There is writing only meant to entertain at a level enough to sell copies. It has its reward. This is not unique to "genre literature" of any kind. Or indeed, any kind of art or entertainment. Even sports, you have coaches who think winning is all that matters, and others who value the style, flair, and artfulness with which it was done (like Johan Cruyff did). The same is found in politics, business, or any endeavor. You have those engaged in short-term profiteering. And you have the true believers, who use their vehicle of endeavor to communicate an ideal.
Cruyff said, "Competing without winning is pointless. Playing without beauty is boring." The ideal endeavor is one successful at both communicating its ideal and being successful by whatever metric is applied to that form. Be that sales, winning, influence. The 1st conveys passion, the 2nd conveys worthiness. Apart, the object considered, can be judged wanting. Together, they are worthy of emulation and appreciation.
Excellent analogy with sports there, Shawn. I’m reminded of tennis players I enjoy watching the most - a few of them, like Federer, have done a lot of winning, but all of them have a distinct style and a certain amount of flair or grace. The very best stories entertain and enlighten, but some tend towards one function or another. After all, even a mechanical tennis player can win matches.
Would you recommend reading the entire anthology? I've only read one Rushdie novel so far and while it was certainly interesting it didn't totally blow me away.
I would recommend it, Raf. Though I’m disappointed with Rushdie’s stance on genre fiction, he is a pretty cool writer with a lot of interesting ideas.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Yeah, I always wanted to read more of his, the Two Years, Eight Months And Twenty Eight Days one just didn't overwhelm me.
@@RafBlutaxt I haven’t read that one, but One Thousand and One Nights is obviously a major source of inspiration for Rushdie. I did enjoy Midnight’s Children, though.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy It wasn't bad by any means, maybe I just expected more from it or maybe I was just not an experienced enough reader to get more out of it. But Rushdie has been on my non-existing tbr ever since and the topics of the essays seem interesting. I took several courses in aesthetics and the question of truth in fiction during my philosophy studies, so I have personal stakes in this.
@@RafBlutaxt I’m sure you’d have a lot of ramble-worthy thoughts and questions upon reading the essays, Raf!
Apologizing himself out of fantasy won’t really get him far because there is always someone to look down on to. Epic fantasy looks down on YA fantasy; magical realism looks down on epic fantasy, literary fiction looks down on all fantasy, social science non-fiction looks down on fiction, and natural science non-fiction looks down on social science non-fiction…
Excellent point! It’s sad to see a talented writer trying to justify his literary status by insulting other authors. And you’re right - there’s always someone or something better.
"Twilight", "Harry Potter..." or "Hunger Games" have done more for literature in recent years than any "big, serious" books as they created new readers. Most of teens and young adults read because they fell in love with these stories and even though some of them are not so called great literature, they deserve respect. Without these books, there wouldn't be new readers. They made reading cool again.
Scientists and some writers prefer making these distinctions due to their huge egos. They want to appear as someboby sophisticated or respectful. It is more about them than literature itself.
As for escapism - well, we all need stories to forget about our problems, pains or just want to relax. It does more harm than good shaming people for that. After 12 hours at work I prefer genre fiction like fantasy or criminals to wind up and prepare for good night sleep. It doesn't mean I don't or won't read something more demanding.
That’s an excellent point about the role that popular fantasy books play in inspiring readers. For some reason, Rushdie is inconsistent - he seems to approve of Harry Potter at least as children’s literature, while he is disparaging of Hunger Games and Twilight. I think you’re right about the motive, though. It’s about drawing an entirely artificial circle around certain works of literature in order to privilege them over all the rest, and it’s destructive in many ways.
When Salman Rushdie advocates for "wonder" he means Magical Realism, within the Literary Fiction world-not to be confused with Genre Fiction.
A few years ago I attended the awarding Rushdie an honorary doctorate. When he spoke Rushdie twice equated Genre Fiction, all of it, with "Twenty Shade
s of Grey" to riotous applause. Then, to be absolutely clear what he meant, he repeated himself.
Literary Fiction has circled the wagons and drawn the line. Rushdie is one of the big names that benefits immensely from that behavior.
I’m afraid you’re likely right. I’m trying to be charitable in my assumptions about Rushdie’s meaning and intent, but the words you mention from his speech dishearten me. It’s sad. I still think he’s a great writer of fiction, but posing as a member of the elite while putting down an entire genre of writers is the behavior of a petty bully. Especially when he has so much in common with those writers. Thanks for your comment!
:D
Thank you, Diego!
Isn’t all literature entertainment? If Rushdie wanted to make a point about good and evil, he could do it in a philosophy book instead of writing about an angel and a demon. Seems a bit hypocritical.
I think hypocritical is a fair way to put it. It seems Rushdie wants to have his cake, eat it, and tell other people they’re losers for eating their cake.
Channeling my inner George Carlin here...
Rushdie's attempt to elevate his writing smacks of pure sophistry. Magical realism is an oxymoron and by definition fantasy. Unless he is a Thelemite or follower of John Dee for example. And then you get into the argument differentiating between magic and magick, but I digress. Will just assume not.
Self-proclaimed 'literary authors' by definition consider their writing 'literature' and therefore of "superior or lasting merit".
So in the end, the entirety of his position, from the snippets you read, seems to be purely self-serving.
Perhaps we should just dispense with the loaded term literature and just call all works what what they are - made up stories. Which, by definition, would be fantasy.
I’d vote for that, Eric! Anyone who writes, recites, sings, or films a story is a storyteller engaged in storytelling.
It's classic litfic aficionado snobbery, but a tame variety. There will always be a little bit of elitism in an industry or discipline. It's just too human to root out. And I say that as someone who has precisely no time for Twilight and would rather avoid Hunger Games.
I agree. We see such elitism in almost every creative realm, so it seems to be a very strong human tendency.
Every book has a true to be said... However some trues are more relevant than others. Authors like Garcia Marquez or Tolstoi tell more about our world and the human nature than the Twilight books or %90 of modern fantasy writers.
I agree with you. That said, to dismiss genre writing as without value is tragically short-sighted and disappointing from a great author like Rushdie.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy it's not without value but that it has less value.
@@lucianorocha555 Fair enough.
I wish we hadn’t replaced bookcraft with literature. I think I may use the OE word again. ;) of course using both is fine
Bookcraft lacks the elitist connotations of “literature” - I like it!