I really like those essays of Donaldson's. His perspective is so different to that of LeGuin's, and yet complementary. It also approaches aspects of what we have been discussing in terms of archetypes and the resonance those have with readers. Great video, Philip. Thanks for this.
Donaldson brings together a lot of the things I've been thinking about in regards to the functions of fantasy literature over the years, and especially in the last couple years. "The literature of reintegration" is a phrase that should be a standard part of the discourse when we talk about what fantasy can do and what it brings to its readers. Just let me know if you'd like to discuss any of this further since I know you'll have insights into Donaldson's premises and thesis -- it might be fun to elaborate a bit!
Hi Philip, I'm a student of English literature from Germany and I just wanted to say how much I appreciate your channel! I love reading fantasy and I'm really interested in this genre, but unfortunately at my university and in most other German universities there is no real focus on fantasy literature. This is why I love watching your videos, because you not only give great book recommendations, but also critically engage with them and the genre in general. So, thank you for your videos and keep putting out this awesome content :)
Hello, Lisa! Thank you for the kind and lovely comment. It’s a shame that a lot of university systems fail to recognize the potential in fantasy for critical exploration. Essays like Donaldson’s make clear the vast potential awaiting the scholar of fantasy. In the meantime, at least we have spaces like RUclips, where we can gather around these amazing stories that reflect human experience in ways that other genres don’t dare to do. My very best to you for your studies!
Thank you, Laura! I've always felt the same way about fantasy as I do about myth -- both fill me with a sense of wonder, and I come away feeling nurtured, as if I've been somewhere my mind needed to go.
I love the part about dreaming. A way to live our dreams through others. A dream to run to when life hits hard. A sanctuary. Thank you for the splendidly content
I really enjoyed this and love the content you create around these essays. Keep it coming! I have tried Thomas Covenant twice and for some reason I continuously get stuck. Hearing this makes me want to try a third time.
Thanks, Jimmy! I myself have read only Lord Foul’s Bane, and that many years ago, but I plan to remedy that by rereading it and continuing in the series eventually, probably in 2023.
You are probably not alone as the first few hundred pages are tough sledding as well as the first few scenes when he gets to the Land. But the series as a whole is a good read.
Thank you Dr. Chase, What a great lecture! The quote from Donaldson at minute 12 hit me so deeply. It is what I’ve been looking for to quantify in my own writing: “Epics deal with the largest and most important questions of humankind. What is the meaning of Life? Why are we here? What is the religious and moral order of the universe? In effect: Epics articulated the best-- religious and cultural, the best social and psychological self-perceptions of their times. It recorded the way Humankind looked at itself.” I really appreciate your sharing this. It’s what I needed, today especially.
I’m so glad that particular passage struck a chord for you, Andrew - it certainly did for me as well. Donaldson beautifully articulates what a lot of us feel intuitively but have never put into words. It’s wonderful to see the value of the genre expressed so effectively.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy exactly. It think it also pinpoints another pain point in a book that falls flat. It’s that nearly unquantifiable quality: is this making a point? Are their red flags and straw men in the book’s premise? What is the author’s background and do they realize how much of their belief is coming through in their narrative and voice? (To wit, are they being intentional, TOO intentional, or UNintentional about this?)
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy very true. Such is the walk in life we all journey on. (Maybe we’re all in an Epic Fantasy and we just can’t see the Forest for the Ents…)
That would be a most worthwhile video, Gabe! Magic Realism often poses the question, "What if?" in a way that imparts a sense of the mysterious in the midst of the mundane. There's a lot to be explored there.
This was fascinating, Philip! So interesting and true about our diminishing identity as humans and how epic fantasy counters those concepts in a way that is so different than any other medium. I’m also fascinated how reader and character psychology is affected through immersion into a separate world, and how that separation is a key component for reintegration to occur. Donaldson’s take on epic fantasy as well as Malazan resonates with me personally in so many ways. I’ve actually had my mind on something similar, and your presentation and timing couldn’t have been better. Thanks for sharing this!
Thank you, Johanna! I’m glad Donaldson’s essays resonated with you. Can we expect any videos from you on that similar topic? Either way, I look forward to your next contributions to our community!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy A couple of ideas might be incubating! I keep thinking about your nemesis’s video on tone and how that affects reader psychology and/or reflects character psychology. It’s making me think of our sense of separation between self and world. I might be grasping at straws, but I can’t stop thinking about it. Unrelated to that part, I’ve also been considering how my journey into reading fantasy oddly compliments my journey into practicing mindfulness. I might mention that idea in an upcoming video.
Thanks so much! I have to give credit to Donaldson for his inspiring thoughts, but I’ve long believed similar things in regard to the function of epic fantasy. Thanks for watching!
I am catching up with videos and finally got to this one :) You were right, I did enjoy this, quite a lot. I will read Donaldson's essays too. Thank you so much for the amazing content
Loved hearing what these essays have to say. I love big clashes of good and evil, but I also really like when it shines a light on the human condition and has us examine ourselves, as Donaldson is saying there about Erikson. The characters I most attach to (Vimes, Falcio, Senlin, etc) are the ones that have me look at how I see myself and the ones I remember long after (the cast of LPQ for example) are the ones I wish I didn't see so much of myself in lol
I think too that your identification with a character like Vimes is exactly what Donaldson means: You feel empowered by his determination to carve meaning and purpose out of the world, to embrace integrity as a way of living and thus feel not just obligation but also connection to your fellow beings. If that isn’t meaning, then I don’t know what is. It’s good stuff!
Thank you so much for the link! I truly enjoyed your breakdown of these essays. It was something I wanted to do myself but your analysis is top notch and it would be tough to follow. Not only do I think epic fantasy is the literature of reintegration, but it's also the literature that's key to interpreting our lives without resorting to allegory or direct mock up of what's around us. We have plenty of conflict and division in our lives and I think fantasy allows us to process these things without having to look directly in the mirror and say "this bad thing has happened, i'm going to process it." Our minds don't work like that and fantasy helps to work things through with the use of (like Donaldson said) monsters. I could go on because the topic is fascinating, but I'll stop there and hope to speak of it more in the future. Once again, thank you!
Thank you, Jarrod! I could not agree more with you, and I think you should do your own video on Donaldson's epic fantasy essays because I can already tell you'll bring your own insights to them. No pressure, but please let me know if you decide to go for it. All the best!
As usual, Dr. Fantasy has given me a hell of a lot to think about. Thanks, mate. 🙂👌🏻 I’m also super happy to see a booktuber giving Mr. Donaldson some love. Donaldson was a close second behind Tolkien for teenage me, and I’ve just ordered all 6 Thomas Covenant books for a long overdue reread. Damn, I really need to get my channel going… 😆
I applaud you immensely Philip, like everyone Tolkien was my first, then I came across Stephen Donaldson’s”Thomas Covenant “series …👀Read both series back to back, Donaldson has a way with words. We connect to our dreams in a Cerebral and emotional frame of mind! Reading Fantasy to me can incorporate so much emotion . With connections that the author has store for us , through his characters and through the journey there on, which is the journey we’re on, until the final page in the book is read. Thank you again Philip!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy I’m about to read Thomas Howard Riley’s self published book called. “We Break Immortals” Right after the dedication he rights the following ( which fits with your book tube topic) Thomas Howard Riley writes: A book is never just a story. It is a collaboration between the author and your imagination. So every book is a different book depending on who reads it. A book changes every time It changes hands. That is truly extraordinary.
Another great video. Some of my favorite content on your channel is when you go through these essays and talk about them. I always learn something! Would love to watch you discuss this with Dr. Canavan.
It's so great to see someone talking about Donaldson currently. He seems to be completely out of fashion. I read and loved LOTR about 40 years ago when I was 15 and just after that came across Lord Foul's Bane (probably in the public library). Picked it up and never looked back - loved it. The original most messed up, unlikeable central character but his world, his other characters just grabbed me. I needed a dictionary most of the time though but I liked that. For me, it is totally a story of despair, guilt and redemption and SD was ahead of his time on environmental issues too. I found the final quadrology a little disappointing but it is still one of my favourite series. His "Mordant's Need" duology is another favourite - it's a lot less dark than his other stuff. Having major nostalgia feelings now 😁
I’ve been thinking of rereading Lord Foul’s Bane and going on to read more of Donaldson’s books, and your comment is leaving me even more eager to do so. Thanks, Sarah!
What an excellent video! I love when you discuss such topics! These videos almost make me want to take a module in fantasy literature (even though I am studying business). I feel like my brain grows just by listening to you 😅 Keep up the good work!
Thank you! I’m happy to be considered a salubrious influence on anyone’s brain, but that’s a wonderful compliment coming from a well read fantasy fan. I appreciate the kind words very much!
Another question answered that I didn't even know I need to ask.😄 As always it's very interesting to hear your thoughts. Thank you, Philip! Even links to the source material in the description box. Yeah! Thanks for that as well!👍
Thank you! Donaldson's essays are not only worth reading, in my opinion, but they are vital since they articulate one way we can find something that I believe a lot of people are starving for: a sense of purpose and belonging, a sense that we have the ability to find meaning.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Beautifully said! Donaldson's shift away from a formal definition to a functional definitely resonates. Thanks for bringing his essays to my attention. They are certainly something I need and will check out further.
Thank you for this video and turning me on to the two essays. I love the Covenant books, though I have yet to finish the closing tetralogy. Those I plan for in the coming year. The essays will be some nice evening reading for me.
Thanks much for this. The concept of reintegration is perfect. You've really provoked me to think about what drew me to my genre, and makes me see even my own work in a new and wonderful light. I imagine it does the same for you. Thanks, too, for... I suppose *deepening* the conversation on BookTube.
That's absolutely right, Vaughn. Donaldson puts into words what a lot of us feel in a perhaps vague way when we engage with fantasy. We know it feels sustaining, and we know it lends clarity and a sense of belonging to our lives, which are often surrounded by messages of futility and despair. I appreciate you watching and leaving the comment!
Hi there. I love what he is saying too. I love going on journeys with the various characters that I meet. When they face their fears, or learn something new, i can find the courage to face my fears too. Fantasy allows characters to grow, which is what I want to do too. Also, I have an update for you. After starting reading while listening to A Memory of Light two weeks ago, I am now 26% and I am on chapter 11 of the last book in WoT. The first few chapters were very long, so I only had time to listen to 1 chapter per day. I am loving it, and I will be sad when it's over.
Beautifully said about the journey we go on as readers! Also, congratulations on being nearly finished with WoT! The end of that particular journey will come with an array of emotions, no doubt.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Thanks. I am already wishing that I could read more about all of these characters lives. I know that I will need some time once I finish the last book. After that, I will be facing the difficult challenge of picking my next series to work on.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Thanks. It might be either the Servant of the Empire, the Last Wish, or the Way of Kings. If not those, then I have 3 nonfiction books that are calling me. 1. Your Next Five Moves by Patrick Bet David 2. Atomic Habits 3. Alexander Hamilton by Ron Chernow
I have read the first essay from Donaldson and it clicked with me on so many levels, because he covers a lot of ground in terms of why I love fantasy. Giving our demons a physical manifestation through fantastical elements is something I adore. One of my favorite series called Monogatari, is a psychologically driven story about the things that plague adolescents, and the ailments are given manifestations in a variety of ways through "Aberrations". But back to Donaldson, I've read 5 of the Covenant books so far and I have to say Donaldson is an amazing writer, I definitely recommend them
Also the fact that the Thomas Covenant series has been retroactively coined as grimdark despite going against the things it seemingly represents, baffles me. I've never been fond of the term, dark fantasy has always been the one I've known, which is just a general descriptor for tone, and says nothing about the morality of the books
Well said, Nathan. The problem with labels like “grimdark” is how reductive they are, which has a tendency to shut down critical thinking. It seems to me that Donaldson’s work is, as you say, the very opposite of the stereotypes about grimdark in terms of where it ends up. Thanks for watching and commenting!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Of course! I hope you read Lord Foul's Bane one day, that's something I'd definitely be curious to see your thoughts on. Thanks for the video!
Hello Dr. Chase, first time commenter :) I found your channel through getting into the Malazan series (I'm about 60 pages into House Of Chains atm and have had some mixed feelings but am fully on board now) and finding lots of reviews and commentary on Malazan here on YT. I may have spent as much time listening to Erikson talk as I have reading the books LOL. But anyway. I am a lifelong fantasy fan, started young (12 or so) but lapsed (on reading as a whole) for maybe 10 years until around 6 months ago. Ran through my favorite Raymond E. Feist stuff, then WoT (finishing for the first time), some Sanderson, and now Malazan. And I'm so happy to be back and am voraciously attempting to catch up on stuff I'd never heard of in a way I never have before in my time reading fantasy. I still have a lot of your Malazan videos to catch up on (some of which I can't watch yet of course because spoilers) but I do wanna say I've seriously enjoyed everything I've seen so far, so *thank you* for all that you do!!! Anywho, this specific video, I actually came to it through your convo with AP. I watched here first, then will watch that one. I started to watch the video without reading the essays first, then changed my mind and BOY am I glad I did. Regarding the 1986 one, I was engaged and interested in the first half but man my mind was pretty blown by the second half. The progression of epics over the years, the growing unimportance of humans over the years -- this is staggering and feels like a massive truth to me. It just makes so much sense, and we really do owe so much to Tolkien reopening that door, and the WAY he did it (relying more on a complete fantasy world than anyone before really did) was amazing. Sidenote: Donaldson's definition of fantasy (that external plot/world reflects internal character struggles) made me feel like I've been reading everything wrong my whole life lmao. Don't get me wrong, I got SOME of that, but not to that depth. Now my eyes are opened. After all that exposition, I do have one clarifying question for you! While I consider myself reasonably intelligent I sometimes struggle with some abstract concepts. Right now, it's the "reintegration" thing. I *think* I have it, after a bunch of cogitation and processing, so lemme be sure: this is with the presupposition of alienation, yes? The typical modern person is alienated from society in ways not seen previously, so we need reintegration into society/commnunity (through compassion, introspection, etc.)? Thanks in advance for any answer you can give, and thanks again for your breakdown in this video!!
Hello, Chris. It’s fantastic to hear from you! It sounds like you’ve undertaken some amazing journeys already in the fantasy genre. Of course, I wish you the very best with your Malazan read, and I invite you to reach out with your thoughts and questions if you ever feel inspired to. It’s a wonderful thing that Steven Erikson has been so gracious about talking with folks like me and others here on BookTube. I’m glad you’ve been getting something from all the videos. In regard to the Donaldson essays, you’ve expressed his ideas precisely as I understand them. The way you describe the concept of reintegration is perfect. I hope that it is something you’ll experience as you read the Malazan series, which I’ve found life changing. My best wishes to you!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy thanks so much for your thorough reply and kind wishes!! This side of RUclips is really astounding me, just the sense of community and, frankly, love that everyone shares as we delve into some amazing literature. And thanks for confirming my understanding of reintegration -- it took me a while to get there so I'm just glad I got it right in the end :) Okay enough rambling - thanks again for your kind replies. I will comment more on your videos now, see ya soon!
During my people-hating youth, I read everything from Donaldson to Dostoevsky, but the author who most inspired me and made me most happy was Tolkien. LotR taught me I could be better than whom I thought I was; that the human will is not impotent. Perhaps the fantasy medium allows for easier suspension of disbelief, facilitating a more open mind by quietly bypassing inherent cynicism and nihilism. We want to know that the human spirit is up to the task of life, but mass media mostly shows us failure. Great fantasy can teach us otherwise....Just a thought: sometimes the fantastic is able to point us to the "truth" rather than factual analysis. Some examples perhaps are the zen koan, zen teaching stories, Aesop's fables, the Sufi stories of Nasrudin, etc. Love your videos, Dr. Fantasy.
Beautifully said, and I think you get to the heart of the matter when you mention how the suspension of disbelief is something intrinsic to fantasy. Belief was central to myths, which were collective stories. The suspension of disbelief is central to fantasy, which emerges from an individual mind in response to the human experience. Both can be affirming of our place in the family of things.
Many thanks for your interesting, and, at times, moving video on epic fantasy. Thanks also for the link to the two essays by Donaldson. I read the 'First and Second Chronicles of Thomas Covenant' more than a few years ago and was very impressed with the story and the author's vision. Although its debt to Tolkien is obvious, I noted the difference of how Donaldson connected the world of the Land back to our own through the main character of Covenant. I've missed the later series, so I shall probably have to re-read the whole story some time soon! Ursula Le Guin makes a similar argument as Donaldson: all fantasy fiction needs a conflicted central character who undergoes a psychological/spiritual journey of development and resolution; a journey mirrored in the action and events within the story and world of the novel. Donaldson notes in his essay one of the features of epic fantasy is length; the sheer number of words given to tell the story. I might add another feature is the often huge physical scale of the setting; for example, 'The Lord of the Rings', with its many and varied lands and kingdoms, vast numbers of secondary characters, huge battles, etc. Time might be a third feature of such a literary form; again, see the ancient nature of Tolkien's epic.
Thanks, John. The “conflicted central character who undergoes a psychological/spiritual journey of development and resolution” is common to all forms of literature, I think, but the second part of your sentence might pinpoint what characterizes epic fantasy especially: “a journey mirrored in the action and events within the story and world of the novel.” You put it very well, and it’s one of Donaldson’s central assertions because it’s a big part of how epic fantasy delivers the sense of reintegration to its readers. This is something that many of us who read fantasy feel intuitively, but it’s wonderful to have someone like Donaldson define and explain it. Thanks so much for watching and commenting!
Your fireside talk was beautiful. I love hearing experts teach us about their areas of expertise. I've avoided your deep-dives into Malazan because I haven't read the books, but I enjoy your insightful discussions aimed at a more general audience. If epic fantasy is about the world externalizing the characters' internal conflict, does that make epic fantasy necessarily self-centered, especially when we are invited to vicariously live through the main character?
Thank you, David! To answer your excellent question, I would respond that, while we readers identify with the character/s in the story, there is also a universality to the journey. The characters become reflections of human experience, and our immersion in their tales is good practice for making connections with the people around us. So, taken the way I think Donaldson means it, the feeling of transcendence and reintegration with the world around delivers an experience that is the opposite of selfish. That, at least, is my take. I’m headed for bed now, but thanks so much for watching and commenting!
I stopped reading 'Lord Foul's Bane' after a certain scene (I think you can imagine which), but hearing such insightful observations from the author is making me think I might have been following the story too superficially. I'm going to go back and finish it now. Thank you for this horizon-broadening video.
Thomas Covenant’s journey is a long and painful one, and he’s not at first a remotely likable protagonist. I’ve read only Lord Foul’s Bane, and that many years ago, but I think it’s very much worth seeing where Donaldson brings Thomas and the issues he confronts along the way. My best to you, Raoul!
Are you likely to read the Covenant novels soon? Read Lord Foul's Bane just past in January and found it absolutely fascinating as a dialogue with other fantasy - very clearly beholden to, but also building on Tolkien. Would love to hear you (...and AP?) discuss some of the thoughts brought up here - fantastic talk Dr Chase, I'll definitely have to check out these essays
Hello, Zan! A.P. and I have scheduled a chat on Donaldson’s essays, in fact. Coming to a RUclips channel near you! As for Thomas Covenant, I think 2023 is likely for me. Cheers!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Oh wonderful! I wasn't sure if I was going to continue on with the sequels, but maybe I'l reassess next year when that comes around for you - would definitely like to watch that
how fortunate to have stumbled across this video - I love Donaldson's Covenant series and feel that they - and indeed his broader works, too - are widely misunderstood. Stephen Donaldson's take on Epic Fantasy is thought-provoking and shows that demonstrates the breadth of the man's ambition as a ''serious'' writer. I completely understand that certain themes and acts alienate a large portion of his potential audience, but I've long found reading his best work an engaging exercise. He has a new book coming out in November 2022; the conclusion to his latest (and perhaps last?) series, ''The Great God's War" - I've really enjoyed it, though unfortunately it has remained an obscure series to date.
I had the incredible experience of meeting Stephen Donaldson earlier this year and having dinner with him and some other great people. I agree that his books don’t get the attention they deserve. At some point, I plan to read and discuss Thomas Covenant on the channel, though it won’t be until 2023 at the earliest. Cheers!
I think Joseph Campbell said something along the lines of "the modern world is too fast-moving and neglegent to birth new myths" - a quote that sort of shook me when I first read it. A really sad thought. But I have come to think that especially contemporary Fantasy has proved Campbell wrong (on more than one count), with its capacity for hope in the impossible. Pretending for the sake of it, not accepting things for what they are but rather as what they couldn't possibly be. Covenant is quite heavy on the internalization, which I don't think is as prevalent in the genre anymore, but I do like the notion of something innately and irrevocably human laying at the heart of the genre and what it is trying to say. Also, Donaldson is a smart man. I read his essays in the NYRSF (and AP's as well, for that matter) in preparation for my PhD strategy paper and found myself quite impressed. Fantasy scholarship has been struggling for a comprehensive definition of the genre's borders for decades now, and I feel like Donaldson has proposed an answer to a question that has been neglected a bit in that discussion: If Fantasy makes things up, juxtaposes reality with something impossible and fictional, what is that juxtaposition motivated by? What causes it in the first place? Externalizing the internal seems like an interesting take on that problem. Great video by the way, very interesting and thought-provoking - as per usual :)
Thank you, TJ! I agree with you about fantasy being an exception to Campbell's assertion that the modern world is inimical to new myths. This is something he recognized too, I think, when he discussed George Lucas's Star Wars trilogy. I also agree with you that Donaldson's thoughts on epic fantasy externalizing the internal deserve much more widespread recognition. I've thought a lot about fantasy's psychological value and equated it with the functions of myth, religion, and ritual, and I think Donaldson effectively explores the mechanics of this. It's excellent to read your thoughts here!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy My understanding of the study of mythology is unfortunately not that extensive, maybe you can enlighten me a bit here. I got the idea from Campbell's assertion that he was reading myth as something people actually believe to be practically relevant or at least feasible - which Fantasy fiction usually isn't meant to be? Maybe that is the line he was trying to draw? Myth informing every-day life, providing spiritual and cultural grounding vs fiction as escapist entertainment? But then again, Donaldson's variety of Fantasy does provide spiritual insight and an opportunity for personal growth, so where exactly is the difference? I would love to hear your thoughts on this distinction as someone who has worked extensively on stuff like Beowulf.
@@TJ_Kefali In the past, I’ve drawn a distinction between myth and modern fantasy in terms of two things: the collective nature of myths versus the individual behind the fantasy world, and the presence of belief in cultures with myths versus the suspension of disbelief in fantasy readers. Despite these distinctions, I think myth and fantasy can perform similar psychological functions, with the difference that the people who believe in the myths never step away from them, whereas fantasy readers return to the mundane when they close the book. I suppose the differences are important, and, because of them, I don’t know if fantasy can truly replace myths, but it feeds the part of us that myths once fed, I think.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Those are both very good points. The collective negotiation of myth as opposed to the usually individual conception of FF storyworlds seems a very important difference. Maybe we can agree with Campbell in so far as the variety of myth from, say, classical antiquity is no longer something our fast-moving times tend to allow for, but add that mythopoeia and its manifestation in epic Fantasy have similar spiritual or psychological merit? Thank you for your perspective here, very interesting stuff :)
This is a weird question. I was rearranging my book cases yesterday with around 1300 books almost all fantasy and I got to thinking about how i would teach my kids to read the genre. Not as in teach them to read letters but teach them in the sense of fantasy theory and concept. I am homeschooling my boys, and since you are deeply connected to these topics how would you recommend I go about it?
That’s an excellent question, Jacob. Much depends on the age of your kids. When they’re little, the emphasis should remain on the stories, though you could ask them open-ended questions about the stories that you allow them to answer to practice thinking about what they’re reading. As they get older, you can start introducing them to analysis and theory in the form of essays about fantasy and literature in general. That would be my approach, at least. My best wishes for it!
Don't forget the GAP series. Best Scifi ever. Or fantasy disguised as Scifi. As much a masterpiece as the chronicles. A remarkable switch of genres. Donaldson demonstrates that he is not JUST a fantasy writer.
I agree with Jimmy Nutts, I tried covenant and found myself with a sour taste in my mouth, so I quit. This reading of his essay and his thoughts/philosophy of epic fantasy makes me want to try him again.
If you do give Thomas Covenant another try, I hope you’ll enjoy it more this time, William. Perhaps it will help to know where Donaldson intended to lead things.
I've read a lot of fantasy in my life, and I'm going to include sci-fi here because sci-fi itself is also fantasy but just fantasy of the future/fantasy of technology... And in all my fantasy reading I never picked up on any of the philosophy that Donaldson wrote about in his essays. Just shows how different people see and get different things out of the same things we share.
That’s very true! Fantasy is a vast genre that serves many different purposes for many different sorts of people. I do admire the purpose that Donaldson defines for epic fantasy, though.
Thank you, it was very interesting! I'm reading a dark fantasy series now that seems to be somewhat influenced by these ideas. It has a world that is divided between humans and undead monsters, that are in a way counterparts to humans, embodying their impulses. But the humans are deeply flawed and broken by this war, cultivating ruthlessness and becoming dead inside. They lost something and are in need of reintegrating with the world that they believe is an enemy. (The books aren't currently available in English, but I hope that international publishers pick them, they're getting quite popular here in Russia.)
I know he is primarily a science fiction writer, but he is no slouch at sci fi either. I’m reading his Gap series now, that I started but didn’t finish 30 years ago when it came out, for various reasons. Now I can’t put it down
Allegory is taking something real and writing about it in a way that is descriptively unrecognizable yet emotionally dead to rights. I remember a short story by John W. Campbell where in one passage he writes about the last human beings leaving the planet Earth. He describes looking down on the highly advanced cities, now empty, except for the self automated machines going sbout their business. Repairing, cleaning, maintaining a now empty metropolis slowly disappearing below the ships carrying the last humans off to other worlds. It was a sad scene and very haunting. But it wasn't until much later that i realized why it haunted me. I sat down in front of the tv one day and was confronted with the moai of Easter Island. A good story isn't about self help or psychology. Its about overcoming obstacles. Overcoming them in certain ways. The Greek heroes Hercules and Odysseus had very different strategies for overcoming obstacles, or were they? The John Savage character in the movie "Inside Moves" had other stategies. Tarzan, the Three Musketeers, Robinson Crusoe, Nora from "A doll's house", Jean Valjean, The Underground Man, Vito Corleone, Merseult from the Stranger, all have different strategies. Some reintegrative others tragic or pathetic. By saving the world do we save ourselves? Save ourselves from what? The world? Culture? Reason? The rat race? Moral jeopardy? Alienation? Boredom? Certainly not death. We reintegrate with society or with reality, a deeper reality? Instead of irritating, worries and enervating, fears we recall the mystery and wonder of existence. We don't reintegrate with the despair of our menial, crushing, civilization. We refresh our minds and hearts, momentarily, from our troubles. We regain our youth again. If epic fantasy tells us to save ourselves by saving the world, then what does politics do? Tell us to save ourselves by damning the world?
So a strong sense of meaninglessness against the void.... this might explain what happened to episode 12. But the divorcing of fantasy from the real world and reintegration is an interesting concept. This seems to imply a (temporary) death of the reader. Who gets better and then goes for a walk.
"Critics who miss the point of fantasy take a figure like Lord Foul as proof that fantasy is over-simplified escapist fiction." If fantasy is indeed escapist fiction, cannot it be said that the reader through the process of escaping the real world by reading fantasy is then more fully integrated into the real world.
That's exactly correct, Christopher, and that is a function of fantasy that Donaldson so effectively articulates -- the reintegration it offers its readers, the sense of meaning, belonging, and connection in a world that often seems to emphasize the lack of those things.
Great video! Thank you! I wonder what Donaldson has to say about finding a literary agent for representation when you're trying to hustle a 1200 page epic fantasy novel as your first book. I'm only half joking. Perseverance and a strong ego are required, believe me. And now I'm starting work on the second in the series while I wade through it all daily. Oh! And I love the Ganesh shirt! I need it. Take care. Jeff
100% sure the advice would be cut it down or the old sanderson, write something else briefer and hold the mega epic until you've got trust from consumers and agents.
@@Isaiah_McIntosh Yes, that is what I've heard. I discovered the word count sweet spot for a first time fantasy novel is 90k - 120k words after I wrote mine. My book comes in at 363k words. Yikes!
Perseverance and thick skin, with a dose of humility, I think. Tough to balance all that, but passion can carry a writer far. My best wishes to you for your writing, Jeff!
On a personally level I think Tolkien's approach is adverse to the concept of literature. Yes epic stories did exist, foremost including the Iliad and the Odyssey, but the latter especially was more than just a narrative, it was also an encyclopedia for the Greek world. Yes the details were somewhat grey, but that is because maps, demographics, and history was also itself (at the time) rather vague and mythical. In other words such epics were not just for narrative exploration, but practical utilization. Tolkien, despite his many indulgences, was writing from a narrative stand point with the distinct purpose of exploring morality and other such emotional content. Here is why I think his format fails, and why I believe the fantasy genre has suffered due to his influence. Yes the genre has evolved away from Lord of The Rings, but it followed the trajectory Tolkien set and carries with it his many flaws: Tolkien's writing was an academic exercise in exploring the science behind linguistics and morality. The former is self-explanatory, the latter is due to the usage of the scientific method to understand moral issues. Good or Evil always have a precise definition, one cannot be confused for the other. But therein lies the central problem, narrative is not based on the scientific method, it is based on emotion resonance. The great works of narrative from Gilgamesh to Perseus were not an analytical exploration into the logic of the desires that swayed humans, but a work of art that at their core was ambiguous and open to interpretation. Because emotions themselves are ambiguous and without definitive traits, separate to the scientific method of examination. Look at any great sculpture and try to approach the figure through an analytical lens. Perhaps you could determine the measurements or material distribution to configure HOW it was built but you could not assess the emotional affect it has on the audience. Beauty is an affect that allows us to better comprehend the world and ourselves, but it does so without definitively explaining what these things are. Concepts like Love, Greed, Envy, or Hate are not in of themselves rational. One could fall in love with a person to such an extent that they will always be alone. Greed can lead someone into poverty by blinding them to the pitfalls of some great reward. Envy can leave us feeling unfulfilled even when we get what we supposedly want. And Hate can bring us closer to that thing we claim we wish get away from. They are in other words irrational and cannot be scientifically examined as desires, because our mind does not rationally determine the best way to achieve a certain goal. In such a confusing world art can helps us better come to terms with that which science cannot explain. Narrative is a form of art and is therefore vested in emotions, not science. The first problem is how emotions can be manipulated for political ends. It is a medium, just like painting or poetry, which can be utilized for a specific claim. In its more advanced forms propaganda can be found in the likes of Orwell or Dickens. The former was anti-authoritarian and wrote 1984 to drive home the message that authority is dangerous. But it is fundamentally limiting to approach writing with a definitive message because rather than tackling the emotional core behind the human being it narrowly defines the perimeters behind its message and enforces a strict reading that lessens the ability to interpret the story and suffocates the ambiguity within the writing. Dicken was mostly arguing against poverty in Victorian London. His book "A Christmas Carol" was political propaganda in the sense it wanted to relay the message that poverty is bad. In order to achieve that goal it must by consequence remove any ambiguity behind the poor and the rich. The poor must be without question good and innocent while the rich must be morally corrupt. Any nuance in terms of the moral deprecation poverty causes or some logical motivation for Mr. Scrooge would undermine the political goal. Books with a claim can never undermine the message and leave it to interpretation because then it could be adverse to their goals. But that also means it can't be literature, because at its core it is not artistic. There can of course be entertainment of a counter-argument, but that in the end must be dismissed for sake of the political message. Politics can be scientifically analyzed, and the nature of Tolkien's approach to story telling works well in that regard. Rather than evolving from the likes of Lord Dunsany (The King of Elfland's Daughter) or Peake (Gormenghast) modern day fantasy authors approach every situation with an analytical lens. Characterization is approached from a desire to overexplain. Authors like Hobb or Martin want every facet of their main character(s) to be understood until there is no distance between the reader and the characters. That not only removes much of the implied depth these fictional people have, it limits their characters to whatever the author can emotionally describe. Every thought must be understood and every desire rationalized until there is no mystery. In many ways we end up understanding their characters better than we understand ourselves. So rather than learning about ourselves we learn about them and in the worse case implant ourselves into their reality and not our own. In that way these narratives become educationally irrelevant and academically ignored. Analytical thinking in the speculative genre does not stop there however. Writers of secondary worlds now construct there settings before their stories. The story is suppose to be the emotional core of the narrative, and the setting should serve the story. But now thanks to Mr. Tolkien new fantasy writers want to fill their books with extraneous details to build a brand new reality and stitch together a story that best explores this world. The world can only be detailed through scientific means, not artistic means. Explaining the different factions, quantifying the economies, the geography, or (least we forget) the magic systems requires clarity provided only from a scientific precision. Furthermore they realize the world to such an extent they are no longer fantastical. They are not unknowable but derivative of our own approach to logic. The politics must have defined goals or elsewise it is deemed "internally inconsistent". The story now slaves away to fit this larger tapestry and the beauty of atmosphere, mystery, ambiguity, and cognitive dissonance are now gone since they would undermine the established rules. The above applies to countless authors from Rothfuss, to Sanderson, to Jordan, and everyone else. But there is also a new form of fantasy which is shorter and less inclined to world build but suffers from the same root problem. Authors like TJ Klume will write emotionally charged stories through a fantasy lens, but they approach theme through that same obsession with science. Their theme is a claim, and enforces a narrow reading of the characters and sensibilities that block our mind from wonder and evolution. He starts with a message rather than a concept. The message is: kindness and tolerance is good.
Erikson's main theme is (according to himself) a plea for compassion. If either he or Klume wrote ABOUT tolerance or compassion it could be a wonderful exploration into the different forms compassion/tolerance can take and allow readers to reach their own conclusions. But because they started from the premise that there is a definitive answer all their settings, characters, and conflicts are colored by that singular truth. Great narratives have characters like Ahab or Fortescue, not Harry Potter or Jon Snow. Great narratives engulf our minds with counternarratives that break our emotional consistency and cause us to resolve our own internal evolution; they grow readers, not box them in. What Tolkien did could hardly be considered a crime. He was a linguist who wanted to explore his ideas through fiction. But they also set the trajectory and modern day authors are still trapped by their fundamental flaws.
Thank you for the very thoughtful and thorough comment, Hunter! The debate on whether morality belongs in art is an interesting one with many facets to it. You also write about a more scientific approach to writing that is rooted in world building and is inimical to true wonder storytelling, if I’m understanding you correctly. That’s an interesting response to Tolkien, who undoubtedly has had a tremendous influence on the fantasy genre and the way that many people understand it. It’s great to read your ideas here!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Yeah, sorry if the post was really long, I copied and pasted some of it from a post I wrote elsewhere. I did enjoy your video and I enter the discussion as a fan of fantasy and as someone who also believes it has a literary value. The point I was making about world-building is somewhat dependent on the definition. Some people classify world-building as anything spanning from imagery to atmosphere to characterization. If that is the case then every story told to man has world-building. The definition I am using is the use of extraneous details to contextualize the story. Authors like Tolkien are a prime example of this because their settings are created separate from their stories. I personally believe settings should exist only to serve the story because the story is the emotional core of the narrative. Filling out extraneous details requires scientific quantities. Writers who want a consistent world have to enumerate the geographic, political, and economic details with precision, not ambiguity. As I said before, emotions are ambiguous, measurements and scale are not. So as a device I believe world-building runs counter to narrative. One justification I have heard is that it helps give the story a sense of place to which I respond a story can give its world depth through optical illusions or the such. Implying a greater world does not require filling out the details. For example a painting can have pastoral theme, but in the background draw the silhouette of a city. That city does not need to be detailed in proportion because that does nothing for the painting. When a fantastical world is detailed to the point of realism it is no longer in my opinion fantastical.
Almost all of this is just an attempt to assign importance to something people like for the sake of talking about that thing that people like not because it has that importance
I really like those essays of Donaldson's. His perspective is so different to that of LeGuin's, and yet complementary. It also approaches aspects of what we have been discussing in terms of archetypes and the resonance those have with readers. Great video, Philip. Thanks for this.
Donaldson brings together a lot of the things I've been thinking about in regards to the functions of fantasy literature over the years, and especially in the last couple years. "The literature of reintegration" is a phrase that should be a standard part of the discourse when we talk about what fantasy can do and what it brings to its readers. Just let me know if you'd like to discuss any of this further since I know you'll have insights into Donaldson's premises and thesis -- it might be fun to elaborate a bit!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy That would be a lot of fun. Just let me know.
@@ACriticalDragon I’ll shoot you an email!
how about Donaldson as a guest some day ?
@@kingplunger6033 Definitely!
Hi Philip,
I'm a student of English literature from Germany and I just wanted to say how much I appreciate your channel! I love reading fantasy and I'm really interested in this genre, but unfortunately at my university and in most other German universities there is no real focus on fantasy literature. This is why I love watching your videos, because you not only give great book recommendations, but also critically engage with them and the genre in general. So, thank you for your videos and keep putting out this awesome content :)
Hello, Lisa! Thank you for the kind and lovely comment. It’s a shame that a lot of university systems fail to recognize the potential in fantasy for critical exploration. Essays like Donaldson’s make clear the vast potential awaiting the scholar of fantasy. In the meantime, at least we have spaces like RUclips, where we can gather around these amazing stories that reflect human experience in ways that other genres don’t dare to do. My very best to you for your studies!
I love the critical engagement as well.
I love the psychology in Fantasy, and all of the lessons we can take from these stories. This is a fascinating video! Thank you!
Thank you, Laura! I've always felt the same way about fantasy as I do about myth -- both fill me with a sense of wonder, and I come away feeling nurtured, as if I've been somewhere my mind needed to go.
I love the part about dreaming. A way to live our dreams through others. A dream to run to when life hits hard. A sanctuary. Thank you for the splendidly content
Thank you! That is indeed a very important function of fantasy, I think. Fantasy lovers are, in general, pretty good dreamers.
I really enjoyed this and love the content you create around these essays. Keep it coming!
I have tried Thomas Covenant twice and for some reason I continuously get stuck. Hearing this makes me want to try a third time.
Thanks, Jimmy! I myself have read only Lord Foul’s Bane, and that many years ago, but I plan to remedy that by rereading it and continuing in the series eventually, probably in 2023.
You are probably not alone as the first few hundred pages are tough sledding as well as the first few scenes when he gets to the Land. But the series as a whole is a good read.
This is WHY I'm subscribed to your channel. Top tier content, as always.
Thanks so much, Luis! You guys are the reason I keep making these videos, so I appreciate the kind words.
Thank you Dr. Chase,
What a great lecture! The quote from Donaldson at minute 12 hit me so deeply. It is what I’ve been looking for to quantify in my own writing:
“Epics deal with the largest and most important questions of humankind. What is the meaning of Life? Why are we here? What is the religious and moral order of the universe? In effect: Epics articulated the best-- religious and cultural, the best social and psychological self-perceptions of their times. It recorded the way Humankind looked at itself.”
I really appreciate your sharing this. It’s what I needed, today especially.
I’m so glad that particular passage struck a chord for you, Andrew - it certainly did for me as well. Donaldson beautifully articulates what a lot of us feel intuitively but have never put into words. It’s wonderful to see the value of the genre expressed so effectively.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy exactly. It think it also pinpoints another pain point in a book that falls flat. It’s that nearly unquantifiable quality: is this making a point? Are their red flags and straw men in the book’s premise? What is the author’s background and do they realize how much of their belief is coming through in their narrative and voice? (To wit, are they being intentional, TOO intentional, or UNintentional about this?)
@@AndrewDMth It’s a tough balance to strike, but I think authors get better at it with intentional practice.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy very true. Such is the walk in life we all journey on. (Maybe we’re all in an Epic Fantasy and we just can’t see the Forest for the Ents…)
@@AndrewDMth I love that notion!
Really good discussion as always, Philip. I would absolutely love to see you make a video like this about Magic Realism.
That would be a most worthwhile video, Gabe! Magic Realism often poses the question, "What if?" in a way that imparts a sense of the mysterious in the midst of the mundane. There's a lot to be explored there.
This was fascinating, Philip! So interesting and true about our diminishing identity as humans and how epic fantasy counters those concepts in a way that is so different than any other medium. I’m also fascinated how reader and character psychology is affected through immersion into a separate world, and how that separation is a key component for reintegration to occur. Donaldson’s take on epic fantasy as well as Malazan resonates with me personally in so many ways. I’ve actually had my mind on something similar, and your presentation and timing couldn’t have been better. Thanks for sharing this!
Thank you, Johanna! I’m glad Donaldson’s essays resonated with you. Can we expect any videos from you on that similar topic? Either way, I look forward to your next contributions to our community!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy A couple of ideas might be incubating! I keep thinking about your nemesis’s video on tone and how that affects reader psychology and/or reflects character psychology. It’s making me think of our sense of separation between self and world. I might be grasping at straws, but I can’t stop thinking about it. Unrelated to that part, I’ve also been considering how my journey into reading fantasy oddly compliments my journey into practicing mindfulness. I might mention that idea in an upcoming video.
@@Johanna_reads Both sound like excellent topics to me, Johanna. I eagerly await whatever results!
i love how this deep dive can feel like a ted talk and a fun engaging classroom setting. keep rocking Dr. Fantasy.
Thanks so much! I have to give credit to Donaldson for his inspiring thoughts, but I’ve long believed similar things in regard to the function of epic fantasy. Thanks for watching!
I am catching up with videos and finally got to this one :) You were right, I did enjoy this, quite a lot. I will read Donaldson's essays too. Thank you so much for the amazing content
I’m so glad you enjoyed it, Rox! Donaldson’s essays are very much worth the read. My very best to you!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy we are very lucky to have you, thanks for everything, and my very best to you :)
This was really fascinating Philip. Thanks for sharing this essay.
My pleasure, Chas!
Thank you for this video! I love this kind of thing. You are a great teacher.
Thanks so much, Jason - I truly appreciate the kind and supportive words!
Loved hearing what these essays have to say. I love big clashes of good and evil, but I also really like when it shines a light on the human condition and has us examine ourselves, as Donaldson is saying there about Erikson. The characters I most attach to (Vimes, Falcio, Senlin, etc) are the ones that have me look at how I see myself and the ones I remember long after (the cast of LPQ for example) are the ones I wish I didn't see so much of myself in lol
I think too that your identification with a character like Vimes is exactly what Donaldson means: You feel empowered by his determination to carve meaning and purpose out of the world, to embrace integrity as a way of living and thus feel not just obligation but also connection to your fellow beings. If that isn’t meaning, then I don’t know what is. It’s good stuff!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy oh my gosh yes, that's perfect.
Love your channel. I have read Donaldson's Thomas Convenant series and planning to read the Malazan series.
Thank you, Frank! My best wishes to you for your Malazan read!
Thank you so much for the link! I truly enjoyed your breakdown of these essays. It was something I wanted to do myself but your analysis is top notch and it would be tough to follow. Not only do I think epic fantasy is the literature of reintegration, but it's also the literature that's key to interpreting our lives without resorting to allegory or direct mock up of what's around us. We have plenty of conflict and division in our lives and I think fantasy allows us to process these things without having to look directly in the mirror and say "this bad thing has happened, i'm going to process it." Our minds don't work like that and fantasy helps to work things through with the use of (like Donaldson said) monsters. I could go on because the topic is fascinating, but I'll stop there and hope to speak of it more in the future. Once again, thank you!
Thank you, Jarrod! I could not agree more with you, and I think you should do your own video on Donaldson's epic fantasy essays because I can already tell you'll bring your own insights to them. No pressure, but please let me know if you decide to go for it. All the best!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Hmm, that almost sounds like a homework assignment, professor! Ha, okay you're on. I'll attempt a go at it soon.😀
@@thefantasythinker Well, I am a professor . . . 😁
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Homework assignment complete 😁
@@thefantasythinker Awesome!!!
Great Video. Always good to hear about different ways the fantasy genre can be viewed.
Thanks! I love the view that Donaldson expresses, and you’re so right that there are many others.
As usual, Dr. Fantasy has given me a hell of a lot to think about. Thanks, mate. 🙂👌🏻 I’m also super happy to see a booktuber giving Mr. Donaldson some love. Donaldson was a close second behind Tolkien for teenage me, and I’ve just ordered all 6 Thomas Covenant books for a long overdue reread. Damn, I really need to get my channel going… 😆
I’m overdue on my reread of Lord Foul’s Bane, and I need to read the rest of the series!
I applaud you immensely Philip, like everyone Tolkien was my first, then I came across Stephen Donaldson’s”Thomas Covenant “series …👀Read both series back to back, Donaldson has a way with words. We connect to our dreams in a Cerebral and emotional frame of mind! Reading Fantasy to me can incorporate so much emotion . With connections that the author has store for us , through his characters and through the journey there on, which is the journey we’re on, until the final page in the book is read. Thank you again Philip!
Beautifully said, Eddie! Those journeys are why we read, and we’re not the same when they end. My best to you!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy I’m about to read Thomas Howard Riley’s self published book called. “We Break Immortals”
Right after the dedication he rights the following ( which fits with your book tube topic)
Thomas Howard Riley writes:
A book is never just a story.
It is a collaboration between the author and your imagination.
So every book is a different book depending on who reads it.
A book changes every time
It changes hands.
That is truly extraordinary.
@@eddiec2711 I love that! Thanks for sharing, Eddie!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy your welcome
Wonderful assays. Couldn't agree with them more. I love the content and explanation of aspects of fantasy. Great video!
Thanks so much, Michelle! I’m glad that Donaldson’s essays seem to resonate with a lot of people the way they do with me.
This channel is rad. Seriously good content.
Thanks so much! I’m going to show my teenage daughter that someone called me rad today 😁 - Best compliment!
Another great video. Some of my favorite content on your channel is when you go through these essays and talk about them. I always learn something! Would love to watch you discuss this with Dr. Canavan.
Thank you, Jason! In fact, A.P. and I have arranged a day to do just what you suggest. More to come!
It's so great to see someone talking about Donaldson currently. He seems to be completely out of fashion. I read and loved LOTR about 40 years ago when I was 15 and just after that came across Lord Foul's Bane (probably in the public library). Picked it up and never looked back - loved it. The original most messed up, unlikeable central character but his world, his other characters just grabbed me. I needed a dictionary most of the time though but I liked that. For me, it is totally a story of despair, guilt and redemption and SD was ahead of his time on environmental issues too. I found the final quadrology a little disappointing but it is still one of my favourite series. His "Mordant's Need" duology is another favourite - it's a lot less dark than his other stuff. Having major nostalgia feelings now 😁
I’ve been thinking of rereading Lord Foul’s Bane and going on to read more of Donaldson’s books, and your comment is leaving me even more eager to do so. Thanks, Sarah!
What an excellent video! I love when you discuss such topics! These videos almost make me want to take a module in fantasy literature (even though I am studying business). I feel like my brain grows just by listening to you 😅 Keep up the good work!
Thank you! I’m happy to be considered a salubrious influence on anyone’s brain, but that’s a wonderful compliment coming from a well read fantasy fan. I appreciate the kind words very much!
That's a fantastic essay, Philip, no pun intended. Thanks for sharing!
I’m glad you enjoyed hearing about it, Jeroen. I thought it was well worth bringing some attention to in case people hadn’t encountered it yet.
Very thought provoking! I loved Donaldson’s Thomas Covenant series and I will definitely check out these essays.
Thanks, Jennifer! The essays are most definitely worth reading, and they’re not too long either.
I guess big questions require big book bindings. Enjoyed the video as always.
Thanks, Nick! I’m glad you enjoyed the video - I think very highly of Donaldson’s ideas.
So interesting! And another another cool t-shirt
Thank you, Charisse! 😄
this is so informative . thanks philip
I’m glad you enjoyed it! I have a lot of respect for what Donaldson was saying.
Another question answered that I didn't even know I need to ask.😄 As always it's very interesting to hear your thoughts. Thank you, Philip!
Even links to the source material in the description box. Yeah! Thanks for that as well!👍
Thank you! Donaldson's essays are not only worth reading, in my opinion, but they are vital since they articulate one way we can find something that I believe a lot of people are starving for: a sense of purpose and belonging, a sense that we have the ability to find meaning.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Beautifully said! Donaldson's shift away from a formal definition to a functional definitely resonates. Thanks for bringing his essays to my attention. They are certainly something I need and will check out further.
@@brush2canvas849 My pleasure!
Thank you for this video and turning me on to the two essays. I love the Covenant books, though I have yet to finish the closing tetralogy. Those I plan for in the coming year. The essays will be some nice evening reading for me.
I hope you’ll enjoy the essays, Glenn! I’ve only read Lord Foul’s Bane myself, so I’ve got lots of Donaldson to read.
Thanks much for this. The concept of reintegration is perfect. You've really provoked me to think about what drew me to my genre, and makes me see even my own work in a new and wonderful light. I imagine it does the same for you. Thanks, too, for... I suppose *deepening* the conversation on BookTube.
That's absolutely right, Vaughn. Donaldson puts into words what a lot of us feel in a perhaps vague way when we engage with fantasy. We know it feels sustaining, and we know it lends clarity and a sense of belonging to our lives, which are often surrounded by messages of futility and despair. I appreciate you watching and leaving the comment!
"I didn't bring up Beowulf, Donaldson brought up Beowulf!"
🤣🤣🤣 Not my fault if Donaldson did it, right?
No wonder PC likes those essays :D
@@hanspeter4845 Any essay that mentions Beowulf gets priority treatment! 😁
Hi there. I love what he is saying too. I love going on journeys with the various characters that I meet. When they face their fears, or learn something new, i can find the courage to face my fears too. Fantasy allows characters to grow, which is what I want to do too. Also, I have an update for you. After starting reading while listening to A Memory of Light two weeks ago, I am now 26% and I am on chapter 11 of the last book in WoT. The first few chapters were very long, so I only had time to listen to 1 chapter per day. I am loving it, and I will be sad when it's over.
Beautifully said about the journey we go on as readers! Also, congratulations on being nearly finished with WoT! The end of that particular journey will come with an array of emotions, no doubt.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Thanks. I am already wishing that I could read more about all of these characters lives. I know that I will need some time once I finish the last book. After that, I will be facing the difficult challenge of picking my next series to work on.
@@clarkkentnaruto4322 Best wishes for picking the next series!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Thanks. It might be either the Servant of the Empire, the Last Wish, or the Way of Kings. If not those, then I have 3 nonfiction books that are calling me.
1. Your Next Five Moves by Patrick Bet David
2. Atomic Habits
3. Alexander Hamilton by Ron Chernow
I have read the first essay from Donaldson and it clicked with me on so many levels, because he covers a lot of ground in terms of why I love fantasy. Giving our demons a physical manifestation through fantastical elements is something I adore. One of my favorite series called Monogatari, is a psychologically driven story about the things that plague adolescents, and the ailments are given manifestations in a variety of ways through "Aberrations". But back to Donaldson, I've read 5 of the Covenant books so far and I have to say Donaldson is an amazing writer, I definitely recommend them
Also the fact that the Thomas Covenant series has been retroactively coined as grimdark despite going against the things it seemingly represents, baffles me. I've never been fond of the term, dark fantasy has always been the one I've known, which is just a general descriptor for tone, and says nothing about the morality of the books
Well said, Nathan. The problem with labels like “grimdark” is how reductive they are, which has a tendency to shut down critical thinking. It seems to me that Donaldson’s work is, as you say, the very opposite of the stereotypes about grimdark in terms of where it ends up. Thanks for watching and commenting!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Of course! I hope you read Lord Foul's Bane one day, that's something I'd definitely be curious to see your thoughts on. Thanks for the video!
Hello Dr. Chase, first time commenter :)
I found your channel through getting into the Malazan series (I'm about 60 pages into House Of Chains atm and have had some mixed feelings but am fully on board now) and finding lots of reviews and commentary on Malazan here on YT. I may have spent as much time listening to Erikson talk as I have reading the books LOL. But anyway. I am a lifelong fantasy fan, started young (12 or so) but lapsed (on reading as a whole) for maybe 10 years until around 6 months ago. Ran through my favorite Raymond E. Feist stuff, then WoT (finishing for the first time), some Sanderson, and now Malazan. And I'm so happy to be back and am voraciously attempting to catch up on stuff I'd never heard of in a way I never have before in my time reading fantasy. I still have a lot of your Malazan videos to catch up on (some of which I can't watch yet of course because spoilers) but I do wanna say I've seriously enjoyed everything I've seen so far, so *thank you* for all that you do!!!
Anywho, this specific video, I actually came to it through your convo with AP. I watched here first, then will watch that one. I started to watch the video without reading the essays first, then changed my mind and BOY am I glad I did. Regarding the 1986 one, I was engaged and interested in the first half but man my mind was pretty blown by the second half. The progression of epics over the years, the growing unimportance of humans over the years -- this is staggering and feels like a massive truth to me. It just makes so much sense, and we really do owe so much to Tolkien reopening that door, and the WAY he did it (relying more on a complete fantasy world than anyone before really did) was amazing. Sidenote: Donaldson's definition of fantasy (that external plot/world reflects internal character struggles) made me feel like I've been reading everything wrong my whole life lmao. Don't get me wrong, I got SOME of that, but not to that depth. Now my eyes are opened.
After all that exposition, I do have one clarifying question for you! While I consider myself reasonably intelligent I sometimes struggle with some abstract concepts. Right now, it's the "reintegration" thing. I *think* I have it, after a bunch of cogitation and processing, so lemme be sure: this is with the presupposition of alienation, yes? The typical modern person is alienated from society in ways not seen previously, so we need reintegration into society/commnunity (through compassion, introspection, etc.)? Thanks in advance for any answer you can give, and thanks again for your breakdown in this video!!
Hello, Chris. It’s fantastic to hear from you! It sounds like you’ve undertaken some amazing journeys already in the fantasy genre. Of course, I wish you the very best with your Malazan read, and I invite you to reach out with your thoughts and questions if you ever feel inspired to. It’s a wonderful thing that Steven Erikson has been so gracious about talking with folks like me and others here on BookTube. I’m glad you’ve been getting something from all the videos. In regard to the Donaldson essays, you’ve expressed his ideas precisely as I understand them. The way you describe the concept of reintegration is perfect. I hope that it is something you’ll experience as you read the Malazan series, which I’ve found life changing. My best wishes to you!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy thanks so much for your thorough reply and kind wishes!! This side of RUclips is really astounding me, just the sense of community and, frankly, love that everyone shares as we delve into some amazing literature. And thanks for confirming my understanding of reintegration -- it took me a while to get there so I'm just glad I got it right in the end :)
Okay enough rambling - thanks again for your kind replies. I will comment more on your videos now, see ya soon!
@@slidenaway Sounds great, Chris, and I agree with you about this community - it’s fantastic!
During my people-hating youth, I read everything from Donaldson to Dostoevsky, but the author who most inspired me and made me most happy was Tolkien. LotR taught me I could be better than whom I thought I was; that the human will is not impotent. Perhaps the fantasy medium allows for easier suspension of disbelief, facilitating a more open mind by quietly bypassing inherent cynicism and nihilism. We want to know that the human spirit is up to the task of life, but mass media mostly shows us failure. Great fantasy can teach us otherwise....Just a thought: sometimes the fantastic is able to point us to the "truth" rather than factual analysis. Some examples perhaps are the zen koan, zen teaching stories, Aesop's fables, the Sufi stories of Nasrudin, etc. Love your videos, Dr. Fantasy.
Beautifully said, and I think you get to the heart of the matter when you mention how the suspension of disbelief is something intrinsic to fantasy. Belief was central to myths, which were collective stories. The suspension of disbelief is central to fantasy, which emerges from an individual mind in response to the human experience. Both can be affirming of our place in the family of things.
Many thanks for your interesting, and, at times, moving video on epic fantasy. Thanks also for the link to the two essays by Donaldson.
I read the 'First and Second Chronicles of Thomas Covenant' more than a few years ago and was very impressed with the story and the author's vision. Although its debt to Tolkien is obvious, I noted the difference of how Donaldson connected the world of the Land back to our own through the main character of Covenant. I've missed the later series, so I shall probably have to re-read the whole story some time soon!
Ursula Le Guin makes a similar argument as Donaldson: all fantasy fiction needs a conflicted central character who undergoes a psychological/spiritual journey of development and resolution; a journey mirrored in the action and events within the story and world of the novel.
Donaldson notes in his essay one of the features of epic fantasy is length; the sheer number of words given to tell the story. I might add another feature is the often huge physical scale of the setting; for example, 'The Lord of the Rings', with its many and varied lands and kingdoms, vast numbers of secondary characters, huge battles, etc. Time might be a third feature of such a literary form; again, see the ancient nature of Tolkien's epic.
Thanks, John. The “conflicted central character who undergoes a psychological/spiritual journey of development and resolution” is common to all forms of literature, I think, but the second part of your sentence might pinpoint what characterizes epic fantasy especially: “a journey mirrored in the action and events within the story and world of the novel.” You put it very well, and it’s one of Donaldson’s central assertions because it’s a big part of how epic fantasy delivers the sense of reintegration to its readers. This is something that many of us who read fantasy feel intuitively, but it’s wonderful to have someone like Donaldson define and explain it. Thanks so much for watching and commenting!
Your fireside talk was beautiful. I love hearing experts teach us about their areas of expertise. I've avoided your deep-dives into Malazan because I haven't read the books, but I enjoy your insightful discussions aimed at a more general audience. If epic fantasy is about the world externalizing the characters' internal conflict, does that make epic fantasy necessarily self-centered, especially when we are invited to vicariously live through the main character?
Thank you, David! To answer your excellent question, I would respond that, while we readers identify with the character/s in the story, there is also a universality to the journey. The characters become reflections of human experience, and our immersion in their tales is good practice for making connections with the people around us. So, taken the way I think Donaldson means it, the feeling of transcendence and reintegration with the world around delivers an experience that is the opposite of selfish. That, at least, is my take. I’m headed for bed now, but thanks so much for watching and commenting!
I stopped reading 'Lord Foul's Bane' after a certain scene (I think you can imagine which), but hearing such insightful observations from the author is making me think I might have been following the story too superficially. I'm going to go back and finish it now. Thank you for this horizon-broadening video.
Thomas Covenant’s journey is a long and painful one, and he’s not at first a remotely likable protagonist. I’ve read only Lord Foul’s Bane, and that many years ago, but I think it’s very much worth seeing where Donaldson brings Thomas and the issues he confronts along the way. My best to you, Raoul!
Nicely done! Also like the t-shirt :)
Thanks so much -- The Ganesh t-shirt is a favorite of mine!
Are you likely to read the Covenant novels soon? Read Lord Foul's Bane just past in January and found it absolutely fascinating as a dialogue with other fantasy - very clearly beholden to, but also building on Tolkien. Would love to hear you (...and AP?) discuss some of the thoughts brought up here - fantastic talk Dr Chase, I'll definitely have to check out these essays
Hello, Zan! A.P. and I have scheduled a chat on Donaldson’s essays, in fact. Coming to a RUclips channel near you! As for Thomas Covenant, I think 2023 is likely for me. Cheers!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Oh wonderful! I wasn't sure if I was going to continue on with the sequels, but maybe I'l reassess next year when that comes around for you - would definitely like to watch that
I have no thoughts up until this point, except that I need to check these essays.
Definitely! They’re not too long, and very much worth the time since they’ll enrich your reading.
how fortunate to have stumbled across this video - I love Donaldson's Covenant series and feel that they - and indeed his broader works, too - are widely misunderstood.
Stephen Donaldson's take on Epic Fantasy is thought-provoking and shows that demonstrates the breadth of the man's ambition as a ''serious'' writer.
I completely understand that certain themes and acts alienate a large portion of his potential audience, but I've long found reading his best work an engaging exercise.
He has a new book coming out in November 2022; the conclusion to his latest (and perhaps last?) series, ''The Great God's War" - I've really enjoyed it, though unfortunately it has remained an obscure series to date.
I had the incredible experience of meeting Stephen Donaldson earlier this year and having dinner with him and some other great people. I agree that his books don’t get the attention they deserve. At some point, I plan to read and discuss Thomas Covenant on the channel, though it won’t be until 2023 at the earliest. Cheers!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy look forward to that
I think Joseph Campbell said something along the lines of "the modern world is too fast-moving and neglegent to birth new myths" - a quote that sort of shook me when I first read it. A really sad thought. But I have come to think that especially contemporary Fantasy has proved Campbell wrong (on more than one count), with its capacity for hope in the impossible. Pretending for the sake of it, not accepting things for what they are but rather as what they couldn't possibly be. Covenant is quite heavy on the internalization, which I don't think is as prevalent in the genre anymore, but I do like the notion of something innately and irrevocably human laying at the heart of the genre and what it is trying to say.
Also, Donaldson is a smart man. I read his essays in the NYRSF (and AP's as well, for that matter) in preparation for my PhD strategy paper and found myself quite impressed. Fantasy scholarship has been struggling for a comprehensive definition of the genre's borders for decades now, and I feel like Donaldson has proposed an answer to a question that has been neglected a bit in that discussion: If Fantasy makes things up, juxtaposes reality with something impossible and fictional, what is that juxtaposition motivated by? What causes it in the first place? Externalizing the internal seems like an interesting take on that problem.
Great video by the way, very interesting and thought-provoking - as per usual :)
Thank you, TJ! I agree with you about fantasy being an exception to Campbell's assertion that the modern world is inimical to new myths. This is something he recognized too, I think, when he discussed George Lucas's Star Wars trilogy. I also agree with you that Donaldson's thoughts on epic fantasy externalizing the internal deserve much more widespread recognition. I've thought a lot about fantasy's psychological value and equated it with the functions of myth, religion, and ritual, and I think Donaldson effectively explores the mechanics of this. It's excellent to read your thoughts here!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy My understanding of the study of mythology is unfortunately not that extensive, maybe you can enlighten me a bit here. I got the idea from Campbell's assertion that he was reading myth as something people actually believe to be practically relevant or at least feasible - which Fantasy fiction usually isn't meant to be? Maybe that is the line he was trying to draw? Myth informing every-day life, providing spiritual and cultural grounding vs fiction as escapist entertainment? But then again, Donaldson's variety of Fantasy does provide spiritual insight and an opportunity for personal growth, so where exactly is the difference? I would love to hear your thoughts on this distinction as someone who has worked extensively on stuff like Beowulf.
@@TJ_Kefali In the past, I’ve drawn a distinction between myth and modern fantasy in terms of two things: the collective nature of myths versus the individual behind the fantasy world, and the presence of belief in cultures with myths versus the suspension of disbelief in fantasy readers. Despite these distinctions, I think myth and fantasy can perform similar psychological functions, with the difference that the people who believe in the myths never step away from them, whereas fantasy readers return to the mundane when they close the book. I suppose the differences are important, and, because of them, I don’t know if fantasy can truly replace myths, but it feeds the part of us that myths once fed, I think.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Those are both very good points. The collective negotiation of myth as opposed to the usually individual conception of FF storyworlds seems a very important difference. Maybe we can agree with Campbell in so far as the variety of myth from, say, classical antiquity is no longer something our fast-moving times tend to allow for, but add that mythopoeia and its manifestation in epic Fantasy have similar spiritual or psychological merit? Thank you for your perspective here, very interesting stuff :)
@@TJ_Kefali That’s an excellent way to put it, TJ!
This is a weird question. I was rearranging my book cases yesterday with around 1300 books almost all fantasy and I got to thinking about how i would teach my kids to read the genre. Not as in teach them to read letters but teach them in the sense of fantasy theory and concept. I am homeschooling my boys, and since you are deeply connected to these topics how would you recommend I go about it?
That’s an excellent question, Jacob. Much depends on the age of your kids. When they’re little, the emphasis should remain on the stories, though you could ask them open-ended questions about the stories that you allow them to answer to practice thinking about what they’re reading. As they get older, you can start introducing them to analysis and theory in the form of essays about fantasy and literature in general. That would be my approach, at least. My best wishes for it!
Don't forget the GAP series. Best Scifi ever. Or fantasy disguised as Scifi. As much a masterpiece as the chronicles. A remarkable switch of genres. Donaldson demonstrates that he is not JUST a fantasy writer.
Thanks for the recommendation!
Thanks, will definitly check out Donaldson's essays!
Yay! They are most worthy of your time.
I agree with Jimmy Nutts, I tried covenant and found myself with a sour taste in my mouth, so I quit.
This reading of his essay and his thoughts/philosophy of epic fantasy makes me want to try him again.
If you do give Thomas Covenant another try, I hope you’ll enjoy it more this time, William. Perhaps it will help to know where Donaldson intended to lead things.
I've read a lot of fantasy in my life, and I'm going to include sci-fi here because sci-fi itself is also fantasy but just fantasy of the future/fantasy of technology... And in all my fantasy reading I never picked up on any of the philosophy that Donaldson wrote about in his essays.
Just shows how different people see and get different things out of the same things we share.
That’s very true! Fantasy is a vast genre that serves many different purposes for many different sorts of people. I do admire the purpose that Donaldson defines for epic fantasy, though.
No comments yet?! Okay… here’s one for the algorithm gods😊
Thank you! I appreciate it very much, and so do the algorithm gods!
Thank you, it was very interesting!
I'm reading a dark fantasy series now that seems to be somewhat influenced by these ideas. It has a world that is divided between humans and undead monsters, that are in a way counterparts to humans, embodying their impulses. But the humans are deeply flawed and broken by this war, cultivating ruthlessness and becoming dead inside. They lost something and are in need of reintegrating with the world that they believe is an enemy. (The books aren't currently available in English, but I hope that international publishers pick them, they're getting quite popular here in Russia.)
Wow, that sounds like a perfect illustration of what Donaldson was talking about, Igor. Thanks for watching the video!
I know he is primarily a science fiction writer, but he is no slouch at sci fi either.
I’m reading his Gap series now, that I started but didn’t finish 30 years ago when it came out, for various reasons.
Now I can’t put it down
Fantastic! Donaldson certainly deserves more attention here on BookTube, I think.
Allegory is taking something real and writing about it in a way that is descriptively unrecognizable yet emotionally dead to rights. I remember a short story by John W. Campbell where in one passage he writes about the last human beings leaving the planet Earth. He describes looking down on the highly advanced cities, now empty, except for the self automated machines going sbout their business. Repairing, cleaning, maintaining a now empty metropolis slowly disappearing below the ships carrying the last humans off to other worlds.
It was a sad scene and very haunting. But it wasn't until much later that i realized why it haunted me. I sat down in front of the tv one day and was confronted with the moai of Easter Island.
A good story isn't about self help or psychology. Its about overcoming obstacles. Overcoming them in certain ways. The Greek heroes Hercules and Odysseus had very different strategies for overcoming obstacles, or were they? The John Savage character in the movie "Inside Moves" had other stategies. Tarzan, the Three Musketeers, Robinson Crusoe, Nora from "A doll's house", Jean Valjean, The Underground Man, Vito Corleone, Merseult from the Stranger, all have different strategies. Some reintegrative others tragic or pathetic.
By saving the world do we save ourselves? Save ourselves from what? The world? Culture? Reason? The rat race? Moral jeopardy? Alienation? Boredom? Certainly not death.
We reintegrate with society or with reality, a deeper reality? Instead of irritating, worries and enervating, fears we recall the mystery and wonder of existence. We don't reintegrate with the despair of our menial, crushing, civilization. We refresh our minds and hearts, momentarily, from our troubles. We regain our youth again.
If epic fantasy tells us to save ourselves by saving the world, then what does politics do? Tell us to save ourselves by damning the world?
Excellent questions!
I had no idea that who wrote these? I've read his novels way back 80's so will look into these
I hope you’ll enjoy the essays, Jacqui!
Happy reading to you!! 🎬📓🧟♂️🧟♂️🧜🏻♂️
And to you as well, Safina!
So a strong sense of meaninglessness against the void.... this might explain what happened to episode 12.
But the divorcing of fantasy from the real world and reintegration is an interesting concept. This seems to imply a (temporary) death of the reader. Who gets better and then goes for a walk.
I’m not dead . . . I think I’ll go for a walk! Yes, episode 12 swallows all meaning down its deep, dark gullet, never to disgorge it again.
"Critics who miss the point of fantasy take a figure like Lord Foul as proof that fantasy is over-simplified escapist fiction." If fantasy is indeed escapist fiction, cannot it be said that the reader through the process of escaping the real world by reading fantasy is then more fully integrated into the real world.
That's exactly correct, Christopher, and that is a function of fantasy that Donaldson so effectively articulates -- the reintegration it offers its readers, the sense of meaning, belonging, and connection in a world that often seems to emphasize the lack of those things.
Great video! Thank you!
I wonder what Donaldson has to say about finding a literary agent for representation when you're trying to hustle a 1200 page epic fantasy novel as your first book. I'm only half joking. Perseverance and a strong ego are required, believe me. And now I'm starting work on the second in the series while I wade through it all daily.
Oh! And I love the Ganesh shirt! I need it.
Take care.
Jeff
100% sure the advice would be cut it down or the old sanderson, write something else briefer and hold the mega epic until you've got trust from consumers and agents.
@@Isaiah_McIntosh Yes, that is what I've heard. I discovered the word count sweet spot for a first time fantasy novel is 90k - 120k words after I wrote mine. My book comes in at 363k words. Yikes!
Perseverance and thick skin, with a dose of humility, I think. Tough to balance all that, but passion can carry a writer far. My best wishes to you for your writing, Jeff!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Hey, thank you!
That shirt is 🔥
Thank you, Bryson!
On a personally level I think Tolkien's approach is adverse to the concept of literature. Yes epic stories did exist, foremost including the Iliad and the Odyssey, but the latter especially was more than just a narrative, it was also an encyclopedia for the Greek world. Yes the details were somewhat grey, but that is because maps, demographics, and history was also itself (at the time) rather vague and mythical. In other words such epics were not just for narrative exploration, but practical utilization.
Tolkien, despite his many indulgences, was writing from a narrative stand point with the distinct purpose of exploring morality and other such emotional content. Here is why I think his format fails, and why I believe the fantasy genre has suffered due to his influence. Yes the genre has evolved away from Lord of The Rings, but it followed the trajectory Tolkien set and carries with it his many flaws:
Tolkien's writing was an academic exercise in exploring the science behind linguistics and morality. The former is self-explanatory, the latter is due to the usage of the scientific method to understand moral issues. Good or Evil always have a precise definition, one cannot be confused for the other.
But therein lies the central problem, narrative is not based on the scientific method, it is based on emotion resonance. The great works of narrative from Gilgamesh to Perseus were not an analytical exploration into the logic of the desires that swayed humans, but a work of art that at their core was ambiguous and open to interpretation.
Because emotions themselves are ambiguous and without definitive traits, separate to the scientific method of examination. Look at any great sculpture and try to approach the figure through an analytical lens. Perhaps you could determine the measurements or material distribution to configure HOW it was built but you could not assess the emotional affect it has on the audience.
Beauty is an affect that allows us to better comprehend the world and ourselves, but it does so without definitively explaining what these things are. Concepts like Love, Greed, Envy, or Hate are not in of themselves rational.
One could fall in love with a person to such an extent that they will always be alone. Greed can lead someone into poverty by blinding them to the pitfalls of some great reward. Envy can leave us feeling unfulfilled even when we get what we supposedly want. And Hate can bring us closer to that thing we claim we wish get away from.
They are in other words irrational and cannot be scientifically examined as desires, because our mind does not rationally determine the best way to achieve a certain goal. In such a confusing world art can helps us better come to terms with that which science cannot explain. Narrative is a form of art and is therefore vested in emotions, not science.
The first problem is how emotions can be manipulated for political ends. It is a medium, just like painting or poetry, which can be utilized for a specific claim.
In its more advanced forms propaganda can be found in the likes of Orwell or Dickens. The former was anti-authoritarian and wrote 1984 to drive home the message that authority is dangerous. But it is fundamentally limiting to approach writing with a definitive message because rather than tackling the emotional core behind the human being it narrowly defines the perimeters behind its message and enforces a strict reading that lessens the ability to interpret the story and suffocates the ambiguity within the writing. Dicken was mostly arguing against poverty in Victorian London. His book "A Christmas Carol" was political propaganda in the sense it wanted to relay the message that poverty is bad. In order to achieve that goal it must by consequence remove any ambiguity behind the poor and the rich. The poor must be without question good and innocent while the rich must be morally corrupt. Any nuance in terms of the moral deprecation poverty causes or some logical motivation for Mr. Scrooge would undermine the political goal. Books with a claim can never undermine the message and leave it to interpretation because then it could be adverse to their goals. But that also means it can't be literature, because at its core it is not artistic. There can of course be entertainment of a counter-argument, but that in the end must be dismissed for sake of the political message. Politics can be scientifically analyzed, and the nature of Tolkien's approach to story telling works well in that regard.
Rather than evolving from the likes of Lord Dunsany (The King of Elfland's Daughter) or Peake (Gormenghast) modern day fantasy authors approach every situation with an analytical lens. Characterization is approached from a desire to overexplain. Authors like Hobb or Martin want every facet of their main character(s) to be understood until there is no distance between the reader and the characters. That not only removes much of the implied depth these fictional people have, it limits their characters to whatever the author can emotionally describe. Every thought must be understood and every desire rationalized until there is no mystery.
In many ways we end up understanding their characters better than we understand ourselves. So rather than learning about ourselves we learn about them and in the worse case implant ourselves into their reality and not our own. In that way these narratives become educationally irrelevant and academically ignored.
Analytical thinking in the speculative genre does not stop there however. Writers of secondary worlds now construct there settings before their stories. The story is suppose to be the emotional core of the narrative, and the setting should serve the story. But now thanks to Mr. Tolkien new fantasy writers want to fill their books with extraneous details to build a brand new reality and stitch together a story that best explores this world. The world can only be detailed through scientific means, not artistic means. Explaining the different factions, quantifying the economies, the geography, or (least we forget) the magic systems requires clarity provided only from a scientific precision. Furthermore they realize the world to such an extent they are no longer fantastical. They are not unknowable but derivative of our own approach to logic. The politics must have defined goals or elsewise it is deemed "internally inconsistent". The story now slaves away to fit this larger tapestry and the beauty of atmosphere, mystery, ambiguity, and cognitive dissonance are now gone since they would undermine the established rules.
The above applies to countless authors from Rothfuss, to Sanderson, to Jordan, and everyone else. But there is also a new form of fantasy which is shorter and less inclined to world build but suffers from the same root problem. Authors like TJ Klume will write emotionally charged stories through a fantasy lens, but they approach theme through that same obsession with science.
Their theme is a claim, and enforces a narrow reading of the characters and sensibilities that block our mind from wonder and evolution. He starts with a message rather than a concept. The message is: kindness and tolerance is good.
Erikson's main theme is (according to himself) a plea for compassion. If either he or Klume wrote ABOUT tolerance or compassion it could be a wonderful exploration into the different forms compassion/tolerance can take and allow readers to reach their own conclusions. But because they started from the premise that there is a definitive answer all their settings, characters, and conflicts are colored by that singular truth.
Great narratives have characters like Ahab or Fortescue, not Harry Potter or Jon Snow. Great narratives engulf our minds with counternarratives that break our emotional consistency and cause us to resolve our own internal evolution; they grow readers, not box them in. What Tolkien did could hardly be considered a crime. He was a linguist who wanted to explore his ideas through fiction. But they also set the trajectory and modern day authors are still trapped by their fundamental flaws.
Thank you for the very thoughtful and thorough comment, Hunter! The debate on whether morality belongs in art is an interesting one with many facets to it. You also write about a more scientific approach to writing that is rooted in world building and is inimical to true wonder storytelling, if I’m understanding you correctly. That’s an interesting response to Tolkien, who undoubtedly has had a tremendous influence on the fantasy genre and the way that many people understand it. It’s great to read your ideas here!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Yeah, sorry if the post was really long, I copied and pasted some of it from a post I wrote elsewhere. I did enjoy your video and I enter the discussion as a fan of fantasy and as someone who also believes it has a literary value.
The point I was making about world-building is somewhat dependent on the definition. Some people classify world-building as anything spanning from imagery to atmosphere to characterization. If that is the case then every story told to man has world-building.
The definition I am using is the use of extraneous details to contextualize the story. Authors like Tolkien are a prime example of this because their settings are created separate from their stories. I personally believe settings should exist only to serve the story because the story is the emotional core of the narrative.
Filling out extraneous details requires scientific quantities. Writers who want a consistent world have to enumerate the geographic, political, and economic details with precision, not ambiguity. As I said before, emotions are ambiguous, measurements and scale are not. So as a device I believe world-building runs counter to narrative.
One justification I have heard is that it helps give the story a sense of place to which I respond a story can give its world depth through optical illusions or the such. Implying a greater world does not require filling out the details. For example a painting can have pastoral theme, but in the background draw the silhouette of a city. That city does not need to be detailed in proportion because that does nothing for the painting.
When a fantastical world is detailed to the point of realism it is no longer in my opinion fantastical.
💜💜
Thank you!
Almost all of this is just an attempt to assign importance to something people like for the sake of talking about that thing that people like not because it has that importance