I've had both, and if I had to chose just one it's full frame every time. The instant spool of the hybrid is nice, but the top end on a full frame is where the platform shines.
Comments at the end sum it up well. Determined by budget and goals. I have a Pure 900 with 1050cc port injectors and cooling manifold with a stage 1 transmission upgrade, but stock engine internals. The turbo has more room for power than I’m tuned for since it is a daily and I want reliability. After a certain power level, tires and driving surface are the limiting factors.
If you wanna go 1000+ hp with b58, adding only an upgraded turbo is a huge no go. You definitely need engine block blueprinting, enhanced pistons and rods for it. The fueling system is going to be one expensive part to upgrade if you pushing it hard and wish to keep it reliable. On top of that, you need cooling, transmission upgrade as well. Finally finding one experienced tuner for your car is going to be challenging cause cars went kaboom if some shitty tune was applied.
People have done 1200hp stock internals the main things you need is upgraded turbo tu high pressure fuel pump new intake manifold because the plastic one sucks and upgraded transmission if you don’t wanna cook it after a few runs the b58 is so famous because it can handle high horsepower without new internals
Switched from a hybrid to a Doc Race 6466 top mount and haven’t looked back. Car just pulls way harder now but the trans is slipping like crazy. Built trans coming in next couple months.
Won’t be a cost effective video but it would be cool to see a 6769 put on your auto 340i that way you can see the night and day difference between what you have now and the UFX
Are there any graphs out there showing spooling and power curves for multiple turbos? I'd love to see the numbers side by side so as to be able to compare the newer hybrids and top mounts. It would be great to be able to compare a Pure 850 to a 900 and then a top mount.
I think one of the things i dislike the most with full frames is the turbo sizing. 99% of people dont need a 1000hp rated turbo, sizing them down to the 700-800hp range is going to make most people extremely happy. Unless like you said, they are building motors/tranmission. Also, what is your pi setup? Currently on a flowmax+ e40 on a fi stage 2 hpfp. Trying to figure out how much further i can go before dumping the 2k into pi, especially if im at around 600whp already, to only gain another 50 or so whp.
I’m on a flowmax 2.5+ with a ds2. Just bought port plate w 750cc injectors and stage 3 lpfp. Will be pushing the flowmax from 29psi to 33 psi. Gonna have my kill map set to 35 psi which is the limit of the turbo. Don’t know exact numbers. But should be around 650-680 wheel when done with tuning.
What is funny is that in theory the hybrid should work the best but because they are just hollowing out the manifold to fit a bigger turbine and not re-engineering the whole thing to fit the bigger integrated turbo it performs worse. That is also why I wish it was similar to the turbo manifold on the Honda Type R, that way we could just cut the flange and put one that fits the manifold.
Currently running stage 2+, stock turbo. I plan on keeping this as the daily really waiting for either a g80 xdrive or a f80 not sure which yet as the project.
ive always been interested in the hybrid turbos, but recently ive started making more money so ive been thinking about saving a little and trading in my 440 xdrive for either a g80 xdrive or a manual g87, but im still undecided right now. I did just put a new exhaust on my car becasue ive alwasy wanted it, so ive been going back to the thought of just upgrading my manifold and turbo for much cheaper than a g series, but the s58 and that new g series styling is calling me lmao i can do a stage 1 tune on a s58 and make the same power as a big turbo b58. But i do love my 440 and ive been thru alot with it replacing the engine and doing all of the mods i have so its a tough decisiuon i cant stop thinking about lol
the BEST turbo kit for b58 is the vargas EWG kit. it literally operates like stock and you can put as little or as big of turbo as you want on it. You can target ANY psi, unlike traditional spring gates where you can only target wastegate pressure and above!. You dont have to run 3 springs or run c02 to the gate etc. It doesnt have that horrible wastegate flutter sound and the list just goes on. Its not even a question . the straight gate 7275 combo RIPS.
I'm currently stock turbo with TU pump and a BM3 flex fuel kit. I'm looking at all these turbo kits, but I'm not sure what to get. This is my daily driver, and I want it to stay reliable. What turbo would you recommend that would keep me at a reliable power level (I've heard 600 is the sweet spot for hp and tq) I already have xhp for my zf and im kinda hesitant to do aux fueling as I don't want to tank my fuel economy. Is a lpfp needed for this goal? I love your videos BTW your very informative.
How do you guys do in the states with the car inspection every year if you go for a top mounted turbo? In Sweden for a new car it’s after 3 years, and than after 2 years, than every year when the car is 6 years old… What’s your car inspection rules and how do you get your car approved? In Sweden if the inspectors think my car is tuned, I’m smoked…
Laws vary from state to state. Some don’t do inspections, some only run a tool that scans the car’s monitors, and others will do the full test with a visual inspection and I believe a smell test
Hey kern I’m looking for some info on this setup. Stock turbo/ stock di injectors but go pi with like 750cc then stage 3lpfp with a tu pump for hpfp. Plan on usuing this for a year till go big turbo and then from there just go stage 3 hpfp and maybe bigger di injectors?
so running a hybrid you have to retain the factory exhaust manifold how much does that end up holding it back? And are all the hybrids twin scroll? i saw some top mounts on ebay that were not twin scroll im guessing for drag racing but that could be a nightmare if installed on a street car id imagine im not sure if they have the same for bottom mount or what.
Outside of the psychology behind the decision making, weighing options vs goals, really not too much specifically. From what I understand a tune alone might satisfy most people with an S58, if I recall MHD stage 2 advertises a little over 700hp (certainly more than some people ever need.)
Just curious what makes you say that about manual vs auto? Why does a manual require big money. The hardware for the kit is all the same and the manual just needs a clutch upgrade while auto needs a transmission build. Only other difference to my understanding is the wiring of a reflex kit. Is there something else
@@caiden2055 right stock clutch doesn’t hold as much as stock auto trans, agreed. but clutch upgrade is cheaper than a transmission upgrade, so confused why any manual upgrade path would cost more.
Clutch upgrade is cheaper yes, but there aren't any cost-effective trans upgrades for manual so you're limited to around 650-700. But to me that doesn't make a difference, go with a full frame if you enjoy it like I do.
@ ok now we are getting somewhere. I was told by numerous people that a manual transmission upgrade isn’t needed. That the internals of the actual gearbox is the same. And that the only real upgrade needed is the clutch itself to grip the additional torque. Obviously I don’t know if this is true hence all the comments. Edit: I’d like to run 800-900whp on the manual with a not-very-agressive torque curve when all is said and done. And full frame is my choice either way, maybe I’m still living in the 90’s but the sound of an external WG just has no comparison. Unless a stock location aka hybrid kit comes out that uses a straight gate and stock electronic WG, which sounds like CES maybe working on something like that, KLM or the new Vargas is my choice. The Spool kit I hear doesn’t fit very well though it looks like a nice simple option fitting my needs. Anyway, please, would love to hear your response on the manual transmission comment.
Buy Your DAW Turbo here: www.bimmernetwork.com/?afmc=kern417&
Buy Your Top Mount Kit Here: docrace.com/collections/turbo-kits
@kern147 what is your clutch/flywheel/hydraulics setup? Thanks for making the video bro 🙏
„Back in my garage“ => driving on a highway 😂😂👍🏻
im on stock turbo stage 2+, going 180 mph easy, 60-120 8 seconds, im a cheapskate and happy with this power
What mods are stg2+?
@@98ws6m6cvertprobably DP, HPFP and tune
@@98ws6m6cvert downpipe, hpfp, and you probably want to get a lot of supporting mods like 2 step cold air spark plugs and coil packs
@@98ws6m6cvert Stage 2+ is Downpipe + an upgraded high pressure fuel pump (HPFP)
I’m on stage 1 and I think it’s plenty lol I’m not racing anyone and I’m not trying to break anything either
I've had both, and if I had to chose just one it's full frame every time. The instant spool of the hybrid is nice, but the top end on a full frame is where the platform shines.
I'm the same. Had a Pure800 now run a G35-1050. Pure was fun. Very fast. But the way that Garrett hits is epic.
But you can pass the inspection every year with a hybrid, you can’t with a full frame, how do you do with that every year inspection?
@ Inspections? None of that here in Canada.
@@GTRuppsala Inspection? What is this, communist russia?
Comments at the end sum it up well. Determined by budget and goals. I have a Pure 900 with 1050cc port injectors and cooling manifold with a stage 1 transmission upgrade, but stock engine internals. The turbo has more room for power than I’m tuned for since it is a daily and I want reliability. After a certain power level, tires and driving surface are the limiting factors.
When do you see full boost on the pure900?
@@behindthebuild8016@ about 3000rpm
About 3000rpm
Damn that’s quick my pure800 hits full boost by 3200
If you wanna go 1000+ hp with b58, adding only an upgraded turbo is a huge no go. You definitely need engine block blueprinting, enhanced pistons and rods for it. The fueling system is going to be one expensive part to upgrade if you pushing it hard and wish to keep it reliable. On top of that, you need cooling, transmission upgrade as well. Finally finding one experienced tuner for your car is going to be challenging cause cars went kaboom if some shitty tune was applied.
People have done 1200hp stock internals the main things you need is upgraded turbo tu high pressure fuel pump new intake manifold because the plastic one sucks and upgraded transmission if you don’t wanna cook it after a few runs the b58 is so famous because it can handle high horsepower without new internals
Love what you've done with the garage👍
I recommend full frames everytime. Just more to work with and people always want more. I have a docrace 6466 bottom mount switched oever from a ufX
What rpm do you see full boost?
Switched from a hybrid to a Doc Race 6466 top mount and haven’t looked back. Car just pulls way harder now but the trans is slipping like crazy. Built trans coming in next couple months.
How much power are you making where the trans began to slip?
@@TjClarkishIDK the number but I’m at 29psi on next gen 6466. I’ve had a Spool stage 2 trans upgrade kit on my shelf for six months now.
What hybrid turbo did you have and how much power? I’m only looking to make about 600wheel max on my gen 1 B58 so I’m thinking the Daw 6769
@iJustB58 that's more than enough turbo for 600whp
@@iJustB58 you could get 650+ off an ultraflow x. a 6769 is gonna give you a ton of lag for such a relatively low power goal
Won’t be a cost effective video but it would be cool to see a 6769 put on your auto 340i that way you can see the night and day difference between what you have now and the UFX
Love the vids bro, but miss the little 2 second clip of awkwardness in the beginning of your older vids lol
Are there any graphs out there showing spooling and power curves for multiple turbos? I'd love to see the numbers side by side so as to be able to compare the newer hybrids and top mounts. It would be great to be able to compare a Pure 850 to a 900 and then a top mount.
Post not boat lol
More insightful vids on the 6MT b58 plz !
I think one of the things i dislike the most with full frames is the turbo sizing. 99% of people dont need a 1000hp rated turbo, sizing them down to the 700-800hp range is going to make most people extremely happy. Unless like you said, they are building motors/tranmission.
Also, what is your pi setup? Currently on a flowmax+ e40 on a fi stage 2 hpfp. Trying to figure out how much further i can go before dumping the 2k into pi, especially if im at around 600whp already, to only gain another 50 or so whp.
I’m on a flowmax 2.5+ with a ds2. Just bought port plate w 750cc injectors and stage 3 lpfp. Will be pushing the flowmax from 29psi to 33 psi. Gonna have my kill map set to 35 psi which is the limit of the turbo. Don’t know exact numbers. But should be around 650-680 wheel when done with tuning.
What is funny is that in theory the hybrid should work the best but because they are just hollowing out the manifold to fit a bigger turbine and not re-engineering the whole thing to fit the bigger integrated turbo it performs worse. That is also why I wish it was similar to the turbo manifold on the Honda Type R, that way we could just cut the flange and put one that fits the manifold.
I think the DAW 6769 is the best of both worlds. fits like a hybrid, big enough to make a lot of power and spools great.
Currently running stage 2+, stock turbo. I plan on keeping this as the daily really waiting for either a g80 xdrive or a f80 not sure which yet as the project.
ive always been interested in the hybrid turbos, but recently ive started making more money so ive been thinking about saving a little and trading in my 440 xdrive for either a g80 xdrive or a manual g87, but im still undecided right now. I did just put a new exhaust on my car becasue ive alwasy wanted it, so ive been going back to the thought of just upgrading my manifold and turbo for much cheaper than a g series, but the s58 and that new g series styling is calling me lmao i can do a stage 1 tune on a s58 and make the same power as a big turbo b58. But i do love my 440 and ive been thru alot with it replacing the engine and doing all of the mods i have so its a tough decisiuon i cant stop thinking about lol
Did your 340 blow blue smoke at 4:00 on the dyno?
amazing video, great info
what was the problem with your DAW turbo?
@@israSam the wastegate flap was sticking. Got replaced under warranty and no issues since
why is a smaller filter/top mount bad for longer use ?
the BEST turbo kit for b58 is the vargas EWG kit. it literally operates like stock and you can put as little or as big of turbo as you want on it. You can target ANY psi, unlike traditional spring gates where you can only target wastegate pressure and above!. You dont have to run 3 springs or run c02 to the gate etc. It doesnt have that horrible wastegate flutter sound and the list just goes on. Its not even a question . the straight gate 7275 combo RIPS.
Vargas sucks
@@Schulzey83Vargas was at least smart enough not to source their own turbos for these kits, but I still don’t trust anything they put out
Kern if you had 1 choice of turbo’s what would you do top or hybrid, and what company would go with.
That’s just too loaded of a question without saying power goals and what the car will be used for, I think he would say top mount though
I'm currently stock turbo with TU pump and a BM3 flex fuel kit. I'm looking at all these turbo kits, but I'm not sure what to get. This is my daily driver, and I want it to stay reliable. What turbo would you recommend that would keep me at a reliable power level (I've heard 600 is the sweet spot for hp and tq) I already have xhp for my zf and im kinda hesitant to do aux fueling as I don't want to tank my fuel economy. Is a lpfp needed for this goal? I love your videos BTW your very informative.
Do I need a custom tune for a turbo upgrade? Can I use MHD? Thanks
i would love a Top Mount but a Top Mount in Germany nahhhh so i got a Hybrid
How do you guys do in the states with the car inspection every year if you go for a top mounted turbo?
In Sweden for a new car it’s after 3 years, and than after 2 years, than every year when the car is 6 years old…
What’s your car inspection rules and how do you get your car approved?
In Sweden if the inspectors think my car is tuned, I’m smoked…
Laws vary from state to state. Some don’t do inspections, some only run a tool that scans the car’s monitors, and others will do the full test with a visual inspection and I believe a smell test
I live in California. Very strict state, but the county I live in doesn't care. Only a smog check when you acquire the vehicle and that's it. 👌🏼
@@hugoibarra5465 Yeah good point, it does vary by county
What about IATs? Is there a significant difference in favor of the full frame in drag and roll racing?
Full frame will win everytime.. some of these hybrids have a ton of back pressure which isn't a good thing.
Hey kern I’m looking for some info on this setup. Stock turbo/ stock di injectors but go pi with like 750cc then stage 3lpfp with a tu pump for hpfp. Plan on usuing this for a year till go big turbo and then from there just go stage 3 hpfp and maybe bigger di injectors?
You dont need PI with stock turbo.
Why not just say top mount, bottom mount and hybrid?
Does the OG big boost kit on your 440 use external WG with an adapter to the stock electronic WG control?
so running a hybrid you have to retain the factory exhaust manifold how much does that end up holding it back? And are all the hybrids twin scroll? i saw some top mounts on ebay that were not twin scroll im guessing for drag racing but that could be a nightmare if installed on a street car id imagine im not sure if they have the same for bottom mount or what.
The daw turbos come with manifolds.
anyone running mamba 3071 or 3076?
Whats your opinion on the spool performance turbo that comes in their top mount kit
Really not a fan. The manifold design isn't great and would make it laggy. I'd recommend a kit with larger runners on the manifold.
@@kern417 also idk jf you have checked out their transmission upgrade do you think it can compete against pure?
How much of this information is relevant to let’s say the s58 platform?
Outside of the psychology behind the decision making, weighing options vs goals, really not too much specifically. From what I understand a tune alone might satisfy most people with an S58, if I recall MHD stage 2 advertises a little over 700hp (certainly more than some people ever need.)
Thought you said you were in your garage?!!!
Круто Бро !
Bare bones.. hybrid if you’re manual unless you got big money, and full frame auto imo
Just curious what makes you say that about manual vs auto? Why does a manual require big money. The hardware for the kit is all the same and the manual just needs a clutch upgrade while auto needs a transmission build. Only other difference to my understanding is the wiring of a reflex kit. Is there something else
@@y00h000upgraded clutch is mandatory pretty much, zf8 will hold fine till about 30psi
@@caiden2055 right stock clutch doesn’t hold as much as stock auto trans, agreed. but clutch upgrade is cheaper than a transmission upgrade, so confused why any manual upgrade path would cost more.
Clutch upgrade is cheaper yes, but there aren't any cost-effective trans upgrades for manual so you're limited to around 650-700. But to me that doesn't make a difference, go with a full frame if you enjoy it like I do.
@ ok now we are getting somewhere. I was told by numerous people that a manual transmission upgrade isn’t needed. That the internals of the actual gearbox is the same. And that the only real upgrade needed is the clutch itself to grip the additional torque. Obviously I don’t know if this is true hence all the comments.
Edit: I’d like to run 800-900whp on the manual with a not-very-agressive torque curve when all is said and done. And full frame is my choice either way, maybe I’m still living in the 90’s but the sound of an external WG just has no comparison. Unless a stock location aka hybrid kit comes out that uses a straight gate and stock electronic WG, which sounds like CES maybe working on something like that, KLM or the new Vargas is my choice. The Spool kit I hear doesn’t fit very well though it looks like a nice simple option fitting my needs.
Anyway, please, would love to hear your response on the manual transmission comment.
Damn I’m early