How that $315,000 Datsun 240Z filled a hole in someone’s heart - The Carmudgeon Show - Ep. 14
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- Опубликовано: 12 фев 2020
- In this episode, Jason and Derek contemplate a recent BringATrailer auction where a 1971 Datsun 240Z sold for $315,000 ($310,000 plus fees.)
It’s a well-known thing in the collector car world that rarity is often a multiplier for any inherently desirable car’s value. It’s simple supply and demand. It follows, then, that cars produced in extremely limited numbers, like the Toyota 2000GT, would be expensive, but mass-produced common cars like the Datsun 240Z wouldn’t.
Except for one factor; cars that were once common and cheap often suffer from high attrition rates; and when they reach collectible age, nostalgia puts a big price premium. In the case of this 240Z, Derek Tam-Scott postulates that the difference between this car’s rational value (at max, $150,000) and its actual sale price (double that) is due to that effect.
Additionally, as Hagerty pointed out in a recent meeting, Japanese cars were largely ignored by Baby Boomers, and as Gen X and Millennials gradually begin to drive collector-car prices, Japanese cars are poised to do well. Jason Cammisa agrees, and adds that cars prevalent in video games (like the Cosworth Mercedes 190E 2.5-16 Evo II and Nissan Skyline) will experience huge values because of their presence there.
The boys also discuss cars similar to the 240Z, such as the Nissan Fairlady Z432, a Japanese-market Z with the Prince S20 racing engine from the original Hakosuka Skyline GT-R, the Jaguar E-Type and its Lightweight variants. And Jason recounts a recent story of his Scirocco 16V gathering attention on the streets because it once was such a common shape but disappeared so slowly that people don’t realize the hole in the heart - until they see one and the flood of memories come back.
Long story short: despite this unexpected auction result, a car’s value is still related to rarity. But we can add “scarcity” to that for cars that were once common but are now rare.
The Carmudgeon Show is a comedic, information-filled conversation with Jason Cammisa and Derek Tam-Scott, two car enthusiasts who are curmudgeonly beyond their years. Proving you don’t have to be old to be grumpy, they spend each episode talking about what’s wrong with various parts of the automotive universe. Despite their best efforts to keep it negative, they usually wind up laughing, happy, and extolling their love for cars. Which just makes them angrier and more bitter.
Jason Cammisa is an automotive journalist, social-media figure, and TV host with over 250 million views on RUclips alone. Jason’s deeply technical understanding, made possible by a lifelong obsession with cars, allows him to fully digest what’s going on within an automobile - and then put it into simple terms for others to understand. Also, a Master’s Degree in Law trained him to be impossible to argue with.
Derek Tam-Scott still tries. He’s a young automotive expert with old-man taste in cars, and a Master’s Degree in Civil Engineering - which means he knows how to be civil to Jason. Or at least he tries. With a decade and a half’s experience buying, selling, driving and brokering classic and exotic cars, he’s experienced the world’s most iconic cars. And hated most of them.
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I own every Car and Driver since 1987, write about cars for a living, and Derek blows my mind with his knowledge. Unreal.
He looks so young, it blows my mind how he has amassed that much knowledge
@@shidous I think he's 30-ish? not a baby, but certainly younger than 99% of folks who can rattle-off E-type history!
@@oldcarproblems3332 etypes were beautiful cars but overhyped. Extremely unreliable and temperamental when driven normally.
They normally talk about stuff they know
@@xeong5 The modern take of them (Eagle E-Type, with BMW engine, six-speed manual transmission and a perfect 50/50 weight distribution) is a wild ride, I can only imagine the real E-Types
I still don't know how Jason and Derek manage to pump out these amazing episodes with a warehouse full of amazing cars. Keep it up boys, cheers.
Thanks!
Is that a Fiesta ST in your profile pic???
@@johnbacon4997 Yes sir!
This is exactly what RUclips needed!
True passionate and knowledgeable car people having interesting conversations.
I learn something new every single episode!
That’s a big change from the rich kid showing off downtown driven supercars or the arguably knowledgeable reviewer pampered by the manufacturers..
DTS has wayyyyyy too much car knowledge knocking around in that head of his. It's borderline insane.
This is my favorite show currently on any format.
Agree, what do you drive Hee?
@@johnbacon4997 W212 E350 daily. Gen 6 Camaro ZL1 and R129 SL500 fun combo. I have an odd combination of cars. Lol.
@@heekim3373 Awesome dude. I'm a broke college kid so I drove a Tiguan. It's on a golf platform so it's more fun than a lot of SUVs.
I'd like to see somebody on bring a trailer claim: 1 of 12 cars that has never been farted in.
haha
I’d fart in an expensive car simply on principle.
240z 's are in every racing game that I play, and I really want one
If this trend continues for the 240z, I can easily see the 240sx in the same territory in 20 years. They are dropping like flies and even now finding a clean one is next to impossible. They hold the same place in young people's heart as the z did in it's day.
Totally agree. They were everywhere when I was in my late teens, early 20's. Everything from nice ones to clapped out ones. Now they are a very uncommon sight.
Not sure I agree with this as they were fairly uninspiring to drive without mods.
Clean ones are definitely hard to find though. I'm in Japan and they are all either rotting or have been given "nissaids" by their 11ty billion former owners.
Often both.
"metricfucktonnes of money". My new favourite saying.
A tip: watch series at kaldroStream. I've been using them for watching all kinds of movies during the lockdown.
@Karsyn Fletcher Yea, I've been watching on KaldroStream for since december myself :)
@Karsyn Fletcher yup, have been using kaldroStream for since december myself =)
@Karsyn Fletcher Yea, have been watching on kaldrostream for years myself :)
@Karsyn Fletcher yup, I have been using kaldrostream for since december myself =)
240Z (Fairlady Z) was the hero car in the Wangan Midnight anime and Maxi Tune arcade games
Finally a man of culture
DEVIL Z
@@johnbacon4997 AKUMA NO ZETTO
*Me:* "Dang, I just watched the last video in my playlist and I have some time to kill. Whatever shall I do?"
*_refreshes youtube_*
*_new Carmudgeon podcast has just been posted_*
*Me:* Yesssssssssssss!!!
As for the 240Z, I think DT'-/S is spot on: the 240Z's appeal comes with younger car culture; despite its age, it came packaged to us alongside AE86s, Skyline GT-Rs, and Supras in Initial D and Midnight Club. The 2000GT went with the "baby boomer market" because the 2000GT aped the european sports cars of the 60s; that's how the 2000GT was allowed in with the old crowd, but the 240Z wasn't.
The exact same reaction I had to seeing this on my home page
"Troy and Abed in the morning."
DT-S is a bank of knowledge. Good to have him on the show!
I own a very sweet 240Z restomod. Just the way I like it, very similar to the Devil Z. I get people in their 20's telling me it's their dream car. I'm just glad I can still drive it. Not too worried about the future value. The present value is there's nothing else like driving a nicely setup S30.
i still maintain a worked L28 with a big cam, tripple webbers and a nice exhaust is a fantastic sounding engine.
Another glorious Carmudgeon show, thanks.
240Z is sought after and desirable because of Wangan Midnight. And also because they are simply beautiful cars.
Enjoy your show and I owned a 240Z in the early eighties a great car , in the seventies they were called a Japanese copy of an E-Type .
great episode guys… really well done.
Just found this channel last night ('cause I have no friends) and couldn't go to bed until I saw each episode then came home from work to find this one, happy as a hairy, fat wombat. Cheers boys, loving your work. Jason so glad you are back on RUclips after MT.
CELICA GT4!!! In the 90’s I saw them flying through the woods in WRC with Castrol and Marlboro liveries on them, and now they’re SO rare. Dream car for sure.
It's 00:45 here in the UK. And, I'm staying up to watch this.
Sorry, not sorry? :)
It was a totally interesting topic and I happily stayed up!
Jason you hit the nail on the head in my opinion when you brought up the point on the video game cars driving the market soon. I totally agree with you on that. I am only a couple years older than you but grew up playing games and most were driving games, and with that most cars I would buy to collect are cars that i played most in games. I also believe a lot of Japanese cars started being in movies more too, besides just F&F series ones, and those also are driving prices because people that were kids when they came out can now start buying them.
Another excellent video. Thank you gents.
Great episode! 🙌🏻🙌🏻
That Etype sounds absolutely incredible and that’s through speakers,I can only imagine how it sounded in side the car!
Living the Dream Had 1966 Roadster 50 years ago. Fabulous sound.
Ahh I wish there were two episodes per week :/ Could listen to you guys for hours!
you are the best jason!!! love your collectoin!!!!
Derek: ハコスカ
Jason: Hako-cyka
Bring this comment up, boys!
You're bang on the nose about games, Jason. Growing up as part of the Gran Turismo generation I have tons of JDM cars tattooed into my consciousness. Everyone I speak to my own age, even those who don't know about cars, still talk about Supras, Skylines, Imprezas and NSXs like they're deities.
Derek was amazing this time around, Jason was pretty much normal Jason, which is great, but Derek... Man, you have made this episode amazing.
This is my new favorite show!
Value related to the cars in video games is a great point!
Jason sliding his e-golf in the background... dudes ballin with those 18s
Double clutching like he should 👌🏾
And double revmatching like a BOSS
I am in my 60s and own a bunch of Z cars (240 to 300) and the younger gen. are always admiring them and talking about them being the first drift cars. Most people dont know what my 84 50ae cars are though
Bad pickup line, Is DTS DTF?
Though on 2000GT, could being a Bond car be a reason why it boomed by the boomers?
That Jaguar E-type sounds heavenly.
You guys are awesome. You're definitely right about video games influencing what the younger generation wants to buy. For example, I love the Porsche 914 because it was fun to race in NFS:Porsche back in 2000, and the BMW Z3 because it was in NFS:4
My God the sound of that E Type. I can't not smile listening to it.
Obviously, you are right. I listened to you talking, but for 40 minutes I just looked at the slightly blurred SLR in the background, my absolute favorite car when I was 12 and the one I finished NFS Most Wanted with.
It's worth what someone, anyone is willing to pay for it at a given point in time. It's a snapshot of the collector car world. Cars get "hot" and cars "cool off" with demand. The SAME cars before, during and after.
Never got to drive a 240Z, but back in the early 70s I did beat one out for first place at the local autocross (driving a friend’s 3.8 E-Type). Thems was the days.
This needs to happen more often
Great for 240Z coverage, i owned a 77 280Z that was silky-smooth with white interior & factory a/c 5spd even back then (1978) people loved the Z so much so it was stolen and was found parted out.
I have watched the prices and 30 to 60 Grand has been the stratosphere "WTF".
Paul Newman in a "Z" is still an awsome picture.
By the way speaking of 4dr sedans the 500E is still a sleeper.
I was born in 1962 and as a boy watched Trans Am racing and fell in love with the BRE Datsun 510s and 240Zs. And, what I wouldn't give for a 69 Nissan Skyline GT-R...not the coupe, but the original four door sedan, or even better, a 1967 Prince Skyline 2000GT-B!
I'm still waiting for my "rare" Dodge Aspen to rise in value 🤣
Great episode, gents. Show's definitely falling into a good rhythm. How about a Carmudgeon episode on the BMW 2002 market? Just throwing it out there...
All the 90s Japanese classics have seen huge attrition rates due to low prices but also due to overmodification. The tragic irony is there are almost certainly less good FD RX-7s and JZA80 Supras left than Ferrari F355s, even though the Ferraris were produced in much lower numbers. NSXs were spared somewhat since they never became truly cheap and weren't viewed as a modification platform as much, but Z32 300ZXs, forget about it. 75,000+ were imported to North America alone and there are very few around in good condition.
I bet there are less good Z32s, FDs, and Supras left combined than there are 993 911s.
Interesting episode. You both have a ton of knowledge. I also appreciate that you know how to pronounce asterisk.
240z wasnt a video game icon but it was huge in JDM anime.
That time of week again 😍
Nice driving clip at the end there.
It is unbelievable Fairlady Z would go that high in value. I can only imaging how much the A6GCS Berlinetta and the BMW 507 are going for, my favorite cars ever
Love the In sight on the Japanese market ,love t hear your in sight on the Nsx ,got a 92,for 25years should I hold or fold 1😎
Camisa and I are only 1 year apart in age. However, the only 2 cars from the 80s that I aspire to own are 1986-87 S7 Turbo and an F40. That’s it! I am very heavy on the 90s cars, which consequently I have been buying for the last 5 years by now.
Z432 was in Forza 4 and was amazing in that game and made me look at them differently
Best car channel with the best host on the youtubes
Another very insightful conversation! Thank you guys! Rapidly becoming my favourite podcast. Also. I want a cocaine and wasabi engine!!!
Hello. I'm late to this but wanted to share my take: In 1992 at age 20 I returned home from the Navy and purchased my first car ever: A 1978 Datsun 280Z. I learned to work on it, raced in it, nearly killed myself in it; all that said, I was just a young man with no $ and after a run of engine repairs I sold it. - FAST FORWARD 5 years and I found a lime yellow 1972 240z in a back yard with MINT INTERIOR. I missed my 280 and snatched it up. Rebuilt it, new paint job etc over 5 years and a kid ran a red light and T-boned it; insurance gave me a pittance check and I could NEVER afford to get into another Z after that. 4 Years later I became a Merchant Marine and sailed for 15 years, building a home, family etc and JUST THIS MONTH I recalled my fathers sad story about the Austin Healey he sold and never was able to purchase, so I looked at 240Z's and fell off of my chair! "I'm going to be like my father and never get back my childhood car!" I thought (especially after seeing one on Ebay for 99,500.00) - Desperate, I looked all night online and found a 1971 Datsun 240Z in 90% restoration for 19,000.00 !!! I grabbed it up! I CAN'T WAIT TO SIT INSIDE AND SMELL IT!
Although, my heart is with the lime yellow 1972 240z (I was born in 72 so it's a weird thing) I am happy to get another 240z, and I MUST SAY, if I had a GRIP OF MONEY and found a PERFECT LIME YELLOW 1972 240Z The price wouldn't matter! This car is a part of me!
Another epic episode of Carmudgeons! The 2000gt was also a Bond car so I think that helped cement it. I may be the lesser Tam-Scott but IMHO it’s the most beautiful Japanese car ever made and that has driven it’s value. The Z is not even in the same league to me. The 2000gt’s design is just so much more cohesive and beautiful. If someone told me it was Italian, I’d believe them.
The rear, 3/4, and side view, the 2000gt is an amazingly beautiful car. Those headlights though.. yeesh. The awkward lower headlights and goofy looking popup headlights ruin it for me.
Nice double clutching Jason
A little late to this, but the driver in that footage is Adriano Medeiros, you can check it right at the beginning of the footage.
Also, I never thought about the video game angle for Japanese cars but for me, what stands out most as the thing that drives the value of Japanese cars now is tuner culture. Tuner culture was way more pervasive with Japanese cars and magazines like Super Street, Speedhunters, Option etc that drove cult followings. We couldn’t afford German cars so we bought Japanese cars and modified them to perform like German cars. Anyone could buy a Japanese shitbox and modify it so my entire generation has a major affinity for Japanese cars that led them to learn more about the history of Japanese cars.
I think the term they are searching for is EMOTION.
What would you think the modern equivalent of the “poster on the wall” is right now? Is it still video games?
Did you guys see that Z432R that went for USD800k in Japan a few weeks ago?
I was just about to say the same thing. I was waiting for them to bring it up while watching.
mmm those background cars!
I also think the 2000GT is an exception because it was Bond car.
Look no further than the Devil Z from Wangan Midnight. That Anime series is the sole reason I want a 240z
Loving this discussion, it's super interesting. And it engenders a question: I recently bought an '09 Aston V8 Vantage 6MT coupe because 1) Jason recommended it a few years ago, and 2) it's a fantastic sports car. Not for any rarity factor. After I bought it, though, someone told me it's one of only 30 Vantages made in Speed Yellow (of which I have no idea how many were coupes with manual transmissions). Do you think that'll affect its value?
I don't want to own a car I'm afraid to drive because of its value.
Kalepsis drive it an enjoy it. If it ends up being valuable, cool. V8Vs in general are pretty easy to find so I don’t anticipate any short term value spike. Maybe someday but I wouldn’t bet the farm on it and certainly wouldn’t deprive myself of motoring joy on the off chance that someday transpires.
@@Dtamscott Thanks, DThyphenS. I always get good advice from you guys.
Does your Vantage has a 4.7V8 or a 4.3V8?
@@subarnosinha8042 I've got the more powerful and more reliable 4.7L. That's the main reason I bought a 2009 instead of an earlier model. And what an engine it is, too; it sounds glorious, especially with fuse 22 removed.
@@Kalepsis bigger engine, better engine 👍 Does the removal of fuse 22 frees up any extra horses?
I have two first gen RX7s, always getting ask question or thumbs up. Everybody had one or knew someone that owed one back in the day, so gas stops tend to take a few minutes longer to hear stories about them.
Jason Camissa seems to have a PhD in cars. Amazing knowledge.
JDM culture is blowing up like never before.... I think it has to do with the fact they are so customable and very little computer set controls.
Gran Turismo was the only way for many people to see or experience many of the JDM cars. Skyline became a household name after that, and fawned over like the Porsche, Lamborghini and Ferrari that we had on our walls and in, say, Test Drive 2 or Outrun
I never thought much of them untill a boomer let me drive his 240z and now i love them.
I farted in my cobalt this morning just lost half its value
240z was in video games. Go all the way back to Tokyo Extreme Racer games. The "final boss" was a blue Z named the Devil Z. Same with early Gran Turismo games.
Nice shout out to the Hagerty Price Guide!
I bought my '73 240Z in 2007 for $5500 (not original color, not matching #'s); couldn't hope to pay less than 2-3x that now! Big regret selling that car. Even crappy 280ZX's are riding the coattails of the 240Z price surge >:-(
“My car is one of only 326 made in this color that came with dealer-installed wheel locks”- Every Corvette Owner Ever
240Z have been in multiple racing games and sims since they have such historical racing background.
I do find it peculiar that two knowledgeable men have a hard time coming to grips with basic economics though. I do believe you finally came to the correct conclusion that they are more popular with the Y,X and Millennial generation, some due to games others because our parents owned them. The fact being there is also a question of need! When the 2000GT and E-types of this world are too expensive to own or drive people will turn to other options. So rising demand since these 3 generations are slowly gaining greater economical potential and a declining offer due to Z rusting out, getting bent over a telephone pole, etc. = rising value in the future. Is 315 000 fucking stupid yes. At the end of the day you could rebuild one from scratch for that price. And don't give me that crap that it wouldn't be factory built, 70's construction is not that glorious to start with.
Then you start seeing people doing cool restorations and modifications and all of a sudden you start a small following which grows and grows and grows. If you look at the available cars in the US market from the 70's that are considered sports cars and that were still easily purchasable a decade ago, what are the options. I mean you can forget the muscle or pony cars; a stupid rusted out mustang frame had a higher asking price then most small modern subcompacts. European sports cars, well the Italians are inabordable, the E-types are covered, Austins and MGs, well unreliable one and still overly expensive. The Germans...
Then we get you idiots, I love you guys, but I do believe you are 100% part of the problem! "The analog feel! Nothing today feels like this! Above 5000 rpm it's like wasabi and cocaine!" And then I have to go and drive my Hyundai Elantra... Yeah I'm fuckin' feelin' alive here! Woopy fuckin' do! You get what I mean, you think I don't want some of that pasty green dynamite for breakfast? You guys create hype; you're hype machines; you make these desirable! And for that I am forever greatful! I wouldn't want these to be forgotten, I believe you are right, they are little jewels of the past, they are some of the best set back memory buttons. For those who enjoy cars for the noisy simple yet complicated things they are, for the love of the hassle of maintaining them, for the sheer pleasure of listening to another tuned engine passing you by, for the enjoyment of spending a nice weekend wrenching on your engine or cleaning your baby, thank you for carmudgeoning on and on.
The 2 of you have such car knowledge it's crazy. Great content. I will say 315k is closer to 458 Speciale money not quite there but close and no way I would take the 240Z over that. I would also choose a 458 Italia for 170k now and a RS6 for 125k over this 240Z. They are great cars and I love the 240Z, 300Z and many more nissan cars. Just don't think they are worth that much.
I don’t know much about collector car values but I do have an observation to make:
It seems like 2,000 is the cutoff for cars that hold and increase in value. 1 or 2 year only production runs help too.
Unless it's a Porsche.
Hashbrowniepie true!
I've written and rewritten a comment here now 4 times. I give up... xD
Awesome show boys! Keep it up!
//Someone who has been playing racing / car games for almost 30 years. (Sadly not one that will spend 100k+ on anything any time soon tho.)
that 240 was only sold at that price for cause money laundering, same with like all modern art
For the next ICONS video, do a review with the C8 and bash on it for not having a manual. Also tell us about the history of Zora’s mid-engine concepts and earlier Vettes.
You've forgotten to say how much RUclips can affect car values (pronounced journalism) now and especially in the future... just saying .. trust me it is happening...
How many lines do you guys take to stay on a subject for 40 min? Just curious
my a ss I’ve never tried coke or even had a cup of coffee before. That’s why I’m so boring to watch.
If there's one car as kid I was taught to lust after in the classifieds of the early 2000s it's a 240 but Jason is right they could have a had a 240 gt3rs for that money
What’s up with the double blip?
The Fairlady Z 432 was used as a police car in Japan.
It was a buyer for whom $315K means nothing.
Cool fact. First video game to be based on a actual car was the darsun 280z Zzap .
1 minute ago, 4 views 👌 love this show!
I miss my 71 240 like no other car I have owned, and that includes my 69 Chevelle, 13 1LE and 88 300ZX.
My 72 240Z was a beautiful Ferrari 365 GTB 4 copy but cheap made . I miss more my 1976 TR-6 .
@@raydevito6523 the TR-6 is also a beautiful car
Fairlady 432 have been in several games, also.
Come on Jason.... U are playing GT like all of us
about 2000 or so of cars like my 1969S...at least in that year
The 240z was made to race against the Toyota 2000GT . Look at the Light weight body and Large fuel filler.
Add some engine work , Triples carbs , Big cam and good pipes and you have a monster.
thigs that i belive will go up in value:
Smart roadster (a lot have been trashed or make into trackday convertions)
2009-2010 Pontiac Solstice coupe GPX
370Z if the analogueness of the next gen disapears
M2 CS, not sure if the comp but is pretty good car
wingless 911 gt3s and the 911 touring
Alfa Gulia QV
the wagons (specailly the sporty ones)