Is this the end of the internal combustion engine? - The Carmudgeon Show - Ep. 40
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- Опубликовано: 6 сен 2024
- visit: www.issimi.com
Jason and Derek start this episode by discussing their upcoming video projects, on the Renault R5 Turbo 2 and the 1973 Porsche Carrera RS respectively. Derek is gobsmacked by the driving experience of the RS and Jason reluctantly admits that the 911 is one of the best driver’s cars of all time, despite his outspoken distaste for their pervasiveness. He also sings the praises of the upcoming Porsche 718 Boxster Spyder again, this time in the context of the sobering realization that the end of the internal combustion engine is on the horizon.
California and the United Kingdom have both announced legislation to make the sale of internal combustion powered cars illegal starting in 2035, and Germany announced something similar for 2030 four years ago. The two discuss the benefits of and obvious drawbacks for enthusiasts of these upcoming laws, while Jason, who has been reading car magazines from the early 1980s, draws a parallel with the era when emissions and fuel economy standards changed the direction of cars forever 40 to 50 years ago, highlighting just how dire the “Malaise Era” was for enthusiasts. They also discuss how we managed to overcome that dark era, and how today’s darkness is offset by the exciting potential for electric cars, which are incredibly high performance and easier to maintain than today’s gasoline cars.
The Carmudgeon Show is a comedic, information-filled conversation with Jason Cammisa and Derek Tam-Scott, two car enthusiasts who are curmudgeonly beyond their years. Proving you don’t have to be old to be grumpy, they spend each episode talking about what’s wrong with various parts of the automotive universe. Despite their best efforts to keep it negative, they usually wind up laughing, happy, and extolling their love for cars. Which just makes them angrier and more bitter.
ISSIMI is an enthusiast-owned, full-service specialist offering sales, consignment, collection management, service, and consulting to discerning enthusiasts and collectors. Specializing in complex transactions that include international services for exceptional cars, ISSIMI’s San Francisco Bay Area and Europe-based teams of experts pride themselves on transparency and knowledge.
Jason Cammisa is an automotive journalist, social-media figure, and TV host with over 250 million views on RUclips alone. Jason’s deeply technical understanding, made possible by a lifelong obsession with cars, allows him to fully digest what’s going on within an automobile - and then put it into simple terms for others to understand. Also, a Master’s Degree in Law trained him to be impossible to argue with.
Derek Tam-Scott still tries. He’s a young automotive expert with old-man taste in cars, and a Master’s Degree in Civil Engineering - which means he knows how to be civil to Jason. Or at least he tries. With a decade and a half’s experience buying, selling, driving and brokering classic and exotic cars, he’s experienced the world’s most iconic cars. And hated most of them.
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SUVs being omitted from the emissions standards is so backwards. We should do it the opposite way in that vehicles under 2500lbs are omit.
Lol yeah or just have it for every vehicle
Miata
Is
Always
The
Answer
PREACH
@Justinian Yi well seems like you got it down pat, right a novel about it maybe
Bruh actully?
German here :D Here what is commonly known as TÜV has an emmissions Test included in it. There is the HU (Hauptuntersuchung = main inspection) which is due every 2 years, and part of that is the AU (Abgasuntersuching = emission gas inspection) but the standarts the cars have to adhere to never change. If a car was sold new within the euro 4 emission standart, for example, it will always be tested to that standart. Older cars have to adhere to their old standarts not newer ones. If you modify a car for better emissions (ad a catalytic converter to an old car ect.) that car might now adhere to a better standart (euro 1 -> euro 2 used to be popular) and has to pay less taxes. But it now has to adhere to that better standart during testing. Historic number plates exsist for cars older than 30years but they also have to be in "erhaltenswertem Zustand" (Condition worth preserving) so not every rusted out shitbox can get those. I think the cars with H number plates still have to adhere to their respective emissions, but they have a flat tax rate. So here you go Jason I hope that cleared it up.
Oh and the excemption made for cars with H plates is that they are allowed to drive into low emission zones here.
Same in italy for the "historic plates" only good examples in original condition can get them. Except they are not plates, just a stamp on the car log book. And same for emissions, has to adhere to the the standard it was built to.
@@Ermy1996 Okay modifications are legal here but they have to be done in the first 10years of the cars life and the parts have to be contempoary. Im amazed germany has rules that are less strict than italy xD
@@HMHacki to be fair italy is overall against modifications of any kind on cars. Any stuff you do has to be approved and is long, tedious and expensive. Example: i am waiting for a historic stamp for my car almost a year, even though the car has already been approved. And the stamp costed me already 200 euros in advance a year ago. And it costs extra each year (around 150) on top of insurance and tax. Also plates on cars here are forever. You can't change them unless the car was stolen. If you loose a plate you will pay for new ones and you can't get period correct plates replaced.
In the Netherlands: >25 yr old [Petrol] cars (First registration between 1980 and 1987) CAN apply for the 'Oldtimer regeling' (=Oldtimer Regulation) which lowers the yearly roadtax to a flat rate of 120 euros/year. Only downside to that is that the vehicle is not allowed on the public road between December and February. If you want to make use of the car during the Winter period, you are obliged to pay the full amount of toad tax (which rises in increments based on weight).
Then there is the >40 yr old category "Oldtimer Regeling" which has no fuel type exemption. And are fully roadtax exempt. These vehicles you are also allowed to drive during the winter period.
Cars first registered AFTER 1987 will only be eligible for the >40 yr category.
There needs to be a real discussion of the relative impact of ICE pollution. We live in the worst of both worlds, as we are rapidly restricting combustion cars to the dismay of enthusiasts, while still barreling past all deadlines to reduce pollution because we aren't restricting the other 98% of transportation and shipping vehicles. So car enthusiasts get to be crushed while we still didn't even make a dent in pollution.
Most of the pollution is caused by older vehicles on roads, you know even 20 years old cars are still on roads
@@carholic-sz3qv that's not true. Yes they contribute a lot but trucks, container ships and aircraft do the most. It's just that governments (eu) don't want to tackle these problem face to face but would rather blame cars that are made in limited number e.g supercars and v8 cars for being the biggest contributers of pollution. We should also not forget that the mining of the battery components and electronics of these electric cars is going to cause even more pollution.
@@atanglesang5896 I was talking about cars, not trucks and ships and aircrafts, the heavy industry is a very difficult segment to make cleaner, rolls royce and other companies have been working on better fuels
@@carholic-sz3qv but still if we want to deal with this problem, we must hit it were it really counts. But enough about that let's talk about cars then. The really older cars are still causing a lot of pollution and in that sense I agree with you on that but these cars are being dumped at cheap prices in developing countries especially countries in Africa by the eu, Japan, Singapore and Britain which doesn't help the overall objective of a cleaner earth. Secondly I would ague that ICE cars are more efficient nowadays as technology has advanced. To sum it all up what I am saying is that we shouldn't be pushed into this electric car hype cause it's not going to work when it comes to applying it on a large scale. Even if it was to work it will ultimately defeat the whole greener earth movement thing. What is better is to still have ICE cars but also have electric cars.
Welcome to climate politics. It's about appearing to be doing something. And all the great parties at Davos.
The end of the internal combustion engine should be the least of our worries. Self driving cars are!! We will be priced out of being able to drive ourselves around. Insurance, licensing etc.
Maybe.. that will be long after 2035 I think.
The air was terrible in the 1970s, we thought “peak oil” was right around the corner, and oil production destabilized the middle east. Catalytic converters effectively addressed the air quality problem. Thanks to technological developments, America’s energy independent now with enormous reserves. Put modern high flow cats on your historic vehicles and enjoy driving them. Demand that this practice remain legal.
Limited mileage usage of "classic" cars should be always allowed, something like weekends and evenings only. No usage at peak times.
I don’t agree that there should be a time limit. It should just be allowed period. Most people won’t have an old gas car. If we get trains, ships power generation and the majority of traffic to be electric, I think enthusiasts who have an old weekend car will be just fine.
Subject suggestion for a future show: Designs that grow on you. ie: The Bangle BMWs are not as bad as when they came out.
Yes!
Z4 coupe is one of BMW best.
@@KarlkEst Just the coupe, the convertible is odd.
And I was beginning to feel ashamed about liking the E63/64 6 Series.
@@ianmacdonald8585 The headlights are a mess
@@mrkkiani Ah, those are the parts that I always liked. It was the parted and squashed to the side tailights that took me a while to get over.
This one was kind of depressing.
Beyond depressing
@@victoralley708 EVs are cool
Hello and Welcome is Jason from engineering explained
Thank you!
I think Clarkson says it too
Hello Everyone and’ Welcome *
😉
I stole it from Jason too.
E90 has a sweet spot in my heart. Its the last good handling 3-Series. Still hoping I can find a mint Lci E90 or E92. Timeless!
It's not just good handling in that sense; it was pretty wonderful. Even if it was modern with some tech and (at the time) added tech compared to the older and lighter 3 series, it was still a true drivers car in the way the chassis felt very joyful and the 6 speed manual transmission was literally mechanical feeling. Add to that, the powertrains (I6 and V8) just emphasize on the soul part of the driving experience even more. Future classics for sure!!
Can’t one make the argument the best thing for the environment is to not buy a new car every three years and keep the one you have running instead?
Please show me these people that can afford a car every 3 years...?
yes but after a a few years it would be better for you to buy an EV since it doesn't take super long for the emissions released from production to be offset by the emissions you avoid in that time. I'm also keeping my car for a year or two and hopefully they'll be an EV that I'll want to buy.
@@macaron3141592653 this is my plan also, at least for my daily driver. Excited by the potential of some new electric cars hopefully coming to market in the next few years.
A place where roads are only filled with people who are getting a joy from driving would be amazing
Visit LA’s backroads.
I thought that was called the racetrack 🤔
NO, there'll be millions of motor driven cars on the road for decades to come. Too many poor nations, poor people who can't afford electric and also those who don't want to convert. Car makers may stop making gas engines, but people will keep driving them. Just look at the Cuba model. Decades later, they'll still driving 1950s cars!
Yea, 1950s body’s with lawn mower engines. So the people that can’t afford electric cars will have old gas powered bodies powered by power tool battery packs 😂
@@jmoo876 ha ha, with Duracel batteries? Or Eveready rechargable packs!
Jay Moo Laptop batteries probably
Thank you for the reminder of the numbered days I have to be able to obtain and drive an interesting car. Late 30s and life has not allowed that itch to be scratched. Also, as you sing the praises of the e-Golf I’ve discovered there are tons available used throughout the country for less than $15k.
I live in Turin northern italy and driving classic cars and any car made before 1991 IS illegal. Has been for over a year. They are modifying the legislation now to allow the driving of registered classic cars that are at least 30 years old on the weekand and festive days, so i guess there is hope.
Fight back these ridiculous rules. Atleast modify for a catylic converter on the older cars so they can be driven daily.
........ Fascism never left Italy huh?
@@enigmaPL old habits die hard
@@enigmaPL you can still drive them far away from all cityes (above 15k inhabitants), but of course most people live in them making it impossible. And if you modify the car is no longer eligible for historical registration. If it does not have historical registration can't be driven even the weekand. Is a loop of madness. At least now weekands and festive days will be allowed again (hopefully). Before the only exception to the no driving rule was the "revisione" (kinda like tuv cecking the car every two years) and "demolizione" (crushing). No other exception at all. There are people fighting back and that provided data about how rare these cars are on the mass and how little km they cover each year. We can hope.
@@Ermy1996 What, so you mean I can not drive my 1965 W111 220 SE coupé in any Italian towns anymore? Although it got a Swedish registration. Here cars are tax exempt if they are older than 30 years. And no TÜV or equivalent checks needed if the car is solder than 50 years.
To me part of being a car enthusiasts is working on them also. Fixing that oil leak, changing spark plugs and finding that vacuum leak. The soul of a car “To me” is the engine and transmission. The day they force us to give that up is going to be a bad day. I know it’s the right thing to do but it hurts when you know what you had and it’s now gone. For future generations this might not effect them so much. Think of how many young adults don’t know who to drive a manual or choke a carbureted car but for me it hurts. A ban of gas engines driving should not be placed but rather the sale of new cars okaybi guess. But leave are vintage oil burners alone.
I've said this before, but I think a limited exemption for new enthusiast cars needs to happen.
A small number of new cars per year, exempt from emissions and safety standards, sold and licensed to enthusiasts for perhaps limited mileage use.
The best part of car and driver is the archived tests they publish. I really wish they did more.
I'm really glad to see you two are keeping this up, even though heading off on different career paths. No matter what you do in the future, as long as it's related to cars, you couldn't buy a better (and more cost efficient) funnel to send interested people in your direction. It's like having 76,000 leads in your desk drawer.
36:17
Ah, the underrated Saturn Astra. It was the one good compact car GM had at the time, although I don’t think it failed because it was too small or too expensive. That car was just poorly marketed, and no one knew what it was. Even if they did, they were concerned about the longevity of the Saturn brand (I guess because of warranties), and sure enough Saturn disappeared two years later.
I believe that had that car been marketed as a Chevrolet Cobalt replacement, it would’ve lasted a lot longer, and probably would still be on sale today. Around 2007, when it first came out, SUVs still sold by a boat load but at least people were smart enough to still buy compact cars at that time.
Jason, I think as someone with a platform and influence you should be helping to push back on gas engine bans. I am 100% for electrification but when it gets to banning gas engines, that is going to make no sense if governments actually put in investment for EVs so people naturally will pick electric cars. It should get to a point where EVs are so prevalent that there is no need to ban gas
Hi from Sweden! I love yer stuff.
True, in Italy at least there’s no-go zones for old combustion engines, there are zones where it’s more expensive, and some REALLY expensive. (So I heard, there’s no such thing in Sweden yet).
AND - there WILL be CO2-neutral new fuels - once the fossil fuels gets illigal in some key markets you suddenly have a market for it.
So, you WILL be able to drive a 1990 Alfa Milano in 2100, just not on fossil gas, and it’s probably pretty expensive. But hey who cares! :)
E85 is a great solution for combustion engines
@@Houthiandtheblowfish Dunno.. its still 15% fossil fuel and there are questionmarks on how to produce ethanol in a good way. But I think it’s a stepping stone
@@pereldh5741 there is a company called carbon recycling international CRI Google it is really interesting they capture carbon from atmosphere and industrial waste gases and they basically convert that into E85 which can be used in internal combustion engines with little modification and it is basically carbon neutral probably electric cars are not the future specially with this battery technology and specially if there is an alternative way that actually doesn’t pollute the air and cri captures it
@@Houthiandtheblowfish Promising!
@@Houthiandtheblowfish thank you for the information mate didn’t know so much about E85 actually.
My only question with California going to electric cars is how are they going to upgrade the electrical grid to handle the additional charging need?
They don't worry abt thay
its california they just tax everyone (accept silicon valley) egregiously
The US has reduced emissions by 10% since 2000. At the same time India and china have more than doubled their emissions in the same amount of time. But no one talks about them. its all America’s fault apparently and we are the ones that need to pick up the slack. If we are talking about the environment its time to get countries that dont give a shit in line because even now we are doing ok with all the SUV’s and horrific cars that run on our roads.
What is the *per capita* emissions?
Well the US has 5% of the worlds population but uses 25% of the worlds energy. Maybe that's why.
@@281cobracar7 one of the most advanced first world countries is bound to use more energy.
@@f4t4lity0r4 - True but we had a head start on China and India. They're still playing catch up with the US and still growing. China is almost there and India is not far behind but technically you're right. One reason US companies move there production to these countries is because of the low environmental standards.
@@281cobracar7 yeah and that’s unfortunate
I literally need to smog my '89 Taurus soon, and I'm a little worried it will fail. Thanks, Hyphen.
Ticking more boxes to leave California every day.
The Corvair mentioned briefly (in vaguely derogatory context), and I'd love to hear what you guys think of it.
34:10 Nailed the SUV thing...consumers didn't particularly want this, manufacturers wanted this and marketed it to people by pushing the same buttons that they would push if they wanted to sell them _anything!_
100%. I bet that if they wanted to do, they could’ve put body cladding and raised heights on minivans, aggressively market them, and have people flock to them. No one would have the same minivan stigma.
Any reason why this specific episode is not available in Podcasts yet? Will be great if you guys can make that happen. Thank You!
This episode is the perfect follow up to the super depressing ep. 22 the new normal for car nerds
While I'm here it would be really cool to hear Jason's thoughts on the future of journalism as the industry has changed so much in the last ten years and likely will for the next 10. Also would love to hear Derek say anything about motorcycles
I love how Derek asks, "Why don't you live where you work?", while having a company that is based in Silicon Valley. Since the start of COVID, I've watched as home prices in California increased quite a bit while Silicon Valley has been notorious for being not affordable when it comes to housing even before the pandemic where burnt out, condemned homes sell for a million dollars. The problem with commuting now has less to do with a desire to own a large property with a picket fence and more to do with home prices being more affordable the further away you get from the city. California is particularly impacted by unreasonably high housing costs and a high cost of living. I live in Sacramento where I know of many folks that commute two hours to work in SF and the Bay area but live in Sacramento because the price of homes is slightly more reasonable. Not everyone can be as well off as Derek.
I’m with Derek Tam-Scott. The newest car I own is a 2010. I have a car that is from 1998 and another one from 1977 and the car that is the most fun to drive is actually the one from 1998. There is no distractions, no driver aids and you actually feel like you are controlling the car, not having the car driving you around. I honestly don’t think I’d ever buy a new car again and the large big screen tv’s glued to dashboards doesn’t appeal to me at all. I think I will always prefer older cars
i think the effect that ice cars have on the global environment is way less significant than it's made out to be. it makes this war on cars look ridiculous when at the same time there are global corporate conglomerates that have a much higher environmental impact, but governments are doing jack shit about them.
And we'll all continue to ship goods across the ocean on ocean tankers, fly in jets and eat way too much beef. Let me save you from the chihuahua biting you ankle while the bear tears your face off. 😂
speaking of not liking 90s cars, has hyphen driven an R32/R33/R34 GT-R or GC8 WRX STI? i would argue that they are 90s cars worth owning for the experience. the low compression heavily turbo charged engines have a power band that's horrible by modern standards (and make them a bit of a pig around town) but adds to the experience when driving it hard as you get punished for letting the rpm ever drop below 3500.
It's the Jason and Hyphen Comedy Hour and 1 Second! To keep classics on the road we need EV manufacturers to offer relatively (Under $5000) cheap conversions for them. I drove a 1974 BMW 2002tii in California as a daily driver for 5 years. When I moved to NJ it didn't pass State emissions. Luckily NJ uses private mechanics to do emissions testings and if you send enough of your mechanic's children to college, they'll stick the test rod up the behind of a newer Honda Civic and you'll get your classic passed :)
Ask anyone with a classic car if they want to do an electric conversion for emissions. You will be laughed at.
Ask anyone with a classic car if they want to do an electric conversion for emissions. You will be laughed at.
32:00 The CLA AMG has that bad of a coefficient? The normal CLA has 0.22! (Even the standard W211 had 0.25)
As for the emission testing in europe: usually the car has to pass the emission class that it had to pass when it was new to be allowed to stay on the road. Same , i think, is true for the historical cars in germany. The excemption as far as i know is for entering the cities that exclude certain emission classes.
Edit: this was the most the most depressing thing i have seen this week.
The normal CLA is 0.28. The 0.22 is some special CLA 180 BlueEfficiency edition. And even in the US, without the active shutters in the front, the coefficient becomes 0.30.
Coefficient of drag starts climbing pretty quick when you need to use that air for cooling stuff or for downforce... both of which are priorities in AMG performance cars and less for economy cars.
Adding a small trunk spoiler will bump it another 0.02 on a lot of cars.
@@TheTkpham Just checked: here in europe most non AMG models are listed at 0.23 and 0.24. The CLA 250 which i thought is the same here and in the US is listed with 0.23 on the page of MB germany, and 0.27 on the page of MB USA. 🤔
Did the guy driving as 1915 Model-T want to go back 15 years and drive a 1900 horse and buggy? The horse did not go away when the Model-T became the way to get around. In my neighborhood in the East bay, horses walk down my track house street every day. Gas cars will have their place for there next 100 years.
So glad Haggerty is allowing you guys to keep this show going. Best car show on RUclips
One big problem with the traditional auto makers and their adoption of electric vehicles is discussed in the must read book "The Innovators Dilemma" - if you look at a company like Nissan, VW etc. then you realize that electric vehicles only represent a few percent of all of their sales hence from a management perspective there is no way that you can ignore the >90% market share of conventional vehicles. For companies like Tesla this problem does not exist - 100% of their sales are electric vehicles hence the focus of their management will be very different.
You might be interested in how much pollution cargo ships omit.
Cargo ships, airplanes, and manufacturing in third world countries omit 99% of the worlds pollution.... yet they bust our balls for owning a vintage car..........
@@MiguelGarcia-vj7oo Who do you think fly in most of those planes, buy the manufactured goods and why do they need the ships to move the goods? Oh yeah to bring them from "third world" countries to "first world" countries. It is not like they can afford multiple vacations a year to take flights to in those countries.
@@MiguelGarcia-vj7oo that's grossly untrue. Air travel and Shipping cause like 6% of all emissions, which is a quarter of all emissions from transportation, and seeing how developing countries produce a minority of greenhouse gas emissions, there's no way 99% of their emissions are coming from these two sources. Ground and private transportation still produce a huge amount of CO2 especially in developed countries.
NO. EV will actually allow ICE to live on longer
"Nobody has business driving around in anything other than electric... " Spoken like true Californians... have you ever lived in North Dakota, Montana, Wyoming, etc.? RANGE living there is WHY combustion engines are still needed there... perhaps someday Electric can get there... but still HOW are you going to fix the environmental impact of converting to electricity... Lithium mining? Hydrocarbons producing electricity? Battery waste?
Range is an issue here in Australia too and is why EV's are few and far between. But with more charging stations and fast chargers, that is slowly becoming less of an issue. The question of clean electricity generation isn't difficult... solar and wind are more efficient and cheaper than ever before. I have panels on my roof and it didn't cost a fortune.
You do realise that heavy mining is needed for solar and wind right? There's only one answer to the energy problem and sooner or later it will be nuclear.
All this says to me is, Let's get all the poor people off the road but don't stop us driving our cars as we buy carbon credits, which is just a way for the rich to get away with huge carbon footprints and nothing more... They want to preach but don't want to give up their shit like everyone else is forced to do.
@@128jaydr people have tried nuclear millions of times.....and it has never worked. And there is a reason. Its because you will be sitting 1.5 m away from a reaction that might become unstable at any point (and it does happen. chernobyl, three mile and fukushima) and give cancer to the 12 people sitting around you in a traffic jam. And forget making those things reliable. People can't be trusted. People who work in reactors are highly trained. Cn you imagine a farmer in texas driving one of those. Nuclear is not a solution because there is a factor called being human and being scared. You aren't scared of a ice or a battery it's very rare that it blows up and a leak in some system on it doesn't lead to radiation leaking in a 500 m radius around you. And battery ev's are not that polluting. Read my reply to the main comment.
for all people who think that battery ev's are polluting in manufcturing, even I thought so earlier. That's all fake crap. Read this and get the real facts:www.caranddriver.com/features/a36877102/20-questions-evs-environmentally-friendly/. No need to buy a shit 1.2 four cylinder in places where the ev infra is developed.
but, sportscars, should then go the other way, removing those shit dct's and putting back na engines, and manuals back in because pollution will be reduced enough then
Carbon emissions in 2019 were the lowest since 1992. This is all unnecessary. And predicated on the idea that CA will be out of debt enough to redo the electrical grid in LA because it fails every summer without an extra 10 million EVs charging. CA has 2 million new car sales a year. This makes no sense.
It only took Jason and Derek 19 minutes to address the main topic of this episode
The idea that an engine in the rear is a problem or unbalanced is simply false and a dangerous idea to spread. A car with only front wheel steering rotates around the rear axel, when it comes to using the tire grip to change the direction at initial turn-in. Using weight transfer to get around a curve happens after the weight has been transferred. A front engine is going to understeer at turn-in because they overload the front wheels so fast. This makes all economy cars (all are front engine now) less likely to be able to avoid an obstruction in the road.
Edit: Front engine is good for towing.
German H-Plates don't exempt from emissions testing, but it exempts from no-entry zones for bad emissions classes. Our 91 Supra has a catalytic converter so it has the green Sticker anyways. But now with 30 years we got an H-Plate and wouldn't Need the sticker. But it still has to pass Euro 1 emissions test with an exhaust probe, or Euro 2 as we uprated the class with a Cold startup regulator for less taxes before the H-Plate.
The electricity that goes into electric cars isn’t clean unless it comes from a nuclear power plant. Battery production has its own carbon footprint and most contemporary batteries are an ecological nightmare. Wake me when we have ecologically friendly batteries or, better yet, affordable fuel cells.
Blar blar blar.
People talk about fuel cells like they are a viable technology... they’re not.
One of Rivians headquarters is in Plymouth, Michigan which is about 10 minutes from Detroit
The Last Chase with Lee Majors got it wrong when it suggested California would be the last free state.
Watching these discussions, it makes me want to get a 2001 Porsche Carrera... I don't know why.
Can I just hang out with you guys sometime? You're pulling all of the thoughts and feelings directly out of my brain.
In Germany post-69 classics are allowed to emit max. 3,5% CO. In Spain pre-86 cars max 5%, post-86 cars max 3,5% CO as far as I know.
Europe is a lost cause.
These are the figures for classics with historic license plate.
Hey, random, but relatable and friendly suggestion: There needs to be an episode that focuses on Koenigsegg. They are worthy of discussion, because of exciting innovation that literally almost no one else has and whatnot. Especially the TFG and the possible revolution of ICE, in both efficiency and performance. An exciting and fascinating topic to check out for sure.
CAT+ECU = less engine wear and less acidic rains. Euro 0
It just doesn't wash the cylinder wall and reduces CO.
Emissions are met with combustion process. Thumping, swirling, stratified charging, combustion chamber shape, temperature, heat conductivity, and another ton of technology and engineering. Also materials, oil.
I have never heard Hyphen swear🤣🤣🤣
Do people really think it's bad now? I was a teenager in the last half of the 80s. I've driven a lot of cars over the last 30 years. I think of right now as a second golden age of cars. Average, dull, terrible family haulers have more horsepower and torque than a lot of supercars from my youth, often with 0-60 times to match.
Oh you got the Opel Astra H GTC as a Saturn in the states? My girlfriend still drives my former car from 2006 :-D As you said, here in Germany that that car size works perfectly.
52:36 Jason’s passion for the automotive community as whole including manufacturers genuinely touched me. It shows his passion and how much he cares about cars even though to the average person, it’s a hunk of metal that moves
1st: Article 27 section 1 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights: Everyone has the right to freely take part in the cultural life of the community, to enjoy the arts and to participate in scientific progress and the benefits that result from it.
-With the internal combustion engines banned, we are deprived of the benefit of scientific progress, which has already begun to be paralyzed by this ban.
-With classics and modifications forbidden, we are deprived of being able to enjoy the arts derived from automotive culture.
-With these bans in place, we are deprived of much of the cultural realm of the automotive community.
2nd: The ICE can be as good as an electric one in terms of emissions:
-Carboneutral fuels: Made from captured Co2 these fuels can help by stalling the atmosphere's saturation since the co2 they emmit, was taken from the atmosphere on the first place. Companies working on these fuels are Repsol, Prometheus Fuels, Carbon Energy... Other companies interested in these fuels are: BMW with 12.5 millions invested in Prometheus Fuels,
Porsche-Siemmens combining forces to make their own, Ducatti also invested in R&D, Mazda as well, Lufthansa, Ferrari has refused outright to comply with the ban as far as I can remember, they anounced that only 2 or 3 out of 5 models the will have on sale will be electric or hybrid, the FIA and F1 have announced that they will use these fuels ASAP, in fact Porsche has pressured both to use them, otherwise, the will refuse to participate. All that in the last year only, and who knows what else I'm mssing.
-Next gen catalytic converters: Audi for example, has made one for diesel capable of emitting 91% less than the euro6 allows. Meanwhile, in Valencia (Spain), there are two ICE prototypes that can capture co2 and filter and recombine all the other gases from the combustion thanks to a new C.C that uses MIEP ceramic membranes: 100% combustion 0% emissions.
-Hydrogen: Hydrogen production has seen a massive leap in advancement, a good example could be HYDI in Australia have developed a booster that makes electrolisis on the run and allows to use an extra lean fuel mixture, compensating with the freshly made hydrogen, this, is effectively, a hybrid injection system. There is a bt of a struggle making a 100% HHO fueled ICE but Toyota seems to be onto smething...
-New engines: This is a bit of a stretch admittedly, but I have to say it, rotaries were very interesting because their magnificent power to weight ratio, unfortunately, their reliability and need to burn oil rendered them non viable, however, there is a new kind of rotary called the Liquid Piston Engine, it was desgned to improve and remove all the problems that the regular Wankel has, its overall better, the smallest LPE that I know produces 4 hp while weighing 4.5 pounds or 2.04 kilograms.
3rd: Did aerosol cans get banned when chlorofluorocarbon was proven harmful? No, it was only the gas itself what was banned and substituted, same thing with AC units, is it illegal to own or use refrigerators or ACs? No because the old gas got substituted by a less harmful one, then why shpould the ICE be different? The problem is the fuel, not the engines, ban fossil fuels, we already have alternatives, fuel efficiency is doing nothing but improve without having to sacrifice performance, there is simply no good reason tho prohibit the machine itself, if it falls in disuse, well bummer, guess we will have to find a way to make or get our own by other means, eventually something will pop up that will push them bac in the market,, even if it is a small one.
I also have a few opinions or ideas like the ICE ban being there to create an artificial economic boom for example, but I have no way to support it and thats merely my oppinion/suspicion, the only way I could try to support thatclaim is by referring to Stellantis' CEO recently admitting that electrification and the ICE ban is rooted in political pressure, not tecnical or scientific.
Also also, to everybody who tries to reply with "that will never work, its not economiclly feaseble, thats only wishful thinking, etc" let me remind you that 7 years ago (from my perspective) those exact words were aimed towards the EV, and look where we are now... never say never, the ICE or the fuel industry can still have the same leap in advancements that the EV got in this decade, you cant talk about future while perpetualizing current problems.
The only way the ICE and Car Culture for that matter can be doomed is if we keep being these whining, apatyhetic, dumbrses that we have become, neither EV's or goverments will kill the ICE or Car Culture, but our lack of attitude and action will do for sure.
I’m far more concerned about self-driving cars than I am about emissions.
I guessed R5 Turbo way before Mr Scott. I wish I could monitise my car geekdom.
I thought I had read those sales restrictions were for cars that were only powered by combustion engines, so a hybrid vehicle would still be able to be sold, no?
What are apartment dwellers, and those relegated to street parking supposed to do? My house (and most in my neighborhood) was built in the city in 1903.. No garage.. No driveway.. Am I supposed to run a cord out a window and across the sidewalk?
Casey pustch built an incredibly fuel efficient car that is NOT slow. He calls it the omega car. Maybe that's the new way. Reusing and reprurposing. It was a world changing idea, and nobody cared. I think it got like 90 mpg without trying?
Gents, there will always be boutique internal combustion V12 H2 awesome cars made you want! No worries!
I have to disagree with Jason's blanket statement about cars getting worse. In the next 15 years, with the increasing electrification of the fleets, I believe that in the last 5 years or so of before ICE's death sentence, the car companies that actually care about the enthusiast vehicles, (Dodge, Mazda, some of Porsche's products) we might actually get to a point where enough of the fleet is electrified that they will be able to then build a few cars that, in terms of enthusiast enjoyment, might beat anything from the 80s onwards. If 99.97% of the Volkswagen Group cars will be electric, they can afford to make a few V12 Lamborghinis or NA Porsches. If 99.97 of Mazda's cars will be electric, they can afford to make peaky Miatas and the RX-9!
The gas vehicles that will be made will be unlike anything seen before, in terms of enthusiasts at car companies not giving a damn.
I feel Tam Hyphen is stuck. Forever an elitist alllllllways going to go on about how it was in a fictional ideal past. I mean, I agree with Jason that as cars shift, they ARE squeezing the ICE experience more and more, and thus the bubble of Hyphens experience and those who care gets smaller and smaller. If Ferrari made more cars like they did the F40 rather than a v6Hybrid as their last ICE car. Dont you think people would actually look at ICE cars as fun? Rather than the shitty old thing that doesnt come close to anything they last experienced in a ICE car?
I men, the Hummer EV is sikkkkk nasty and I dont mind EV everything, but I want to share with as many people I can how fun ICE CAN be. Maybe then they can go 'yea this EV is great, but maybe I SHOULD try and keep a spare fun ICE car as part of a dream garage.
I can appreciate the purity of past designs. I think Mr. Tam-Scott appreciates automobiles with soul, flaws and character as opposed to the spreadsheet-balanced designs of today.
@@aygwm I mean yeam but thats a talking point we all have heard since BMW started releasing their comp packs that didnt fix any underlying issues lol
But what I feel, is that there is a difference in the way that Hyphen would be selfish with his driving joy (I got mine), and Sandler is upset that he cant share it with all.
Hypens appreciation of soul, flaws and character is then limited if no-one else likes the ICE car in the first place. I think its a bit misguided and Sandler (AND HAGGERTY!) have the right mindset you know?
I’d rather have a slow combustion engine with the noise and vibrations than a fast electric. The day I’m forced to drive an electric is the day my passion for cars will die.
Did you drive any electric car? If youre on a sad road, in traffic, I´d have the electric car, if the option is the same econobox with a sad combustion engine. I drove a Renault Clio 1,2 for 5 years, thats what killed my passion for cars.
@@bingoberra18 Heh, I had a Clio Williams, which I adored. I'm not sure why a 1.2 would have killed your passion for cars. I used to sell cars, so drove lots of slow ones and I could still have fun heel and toeing, and balancing the car around a big roundabout with a little lift-off oversteer. Nope, never driven an electric, but I don't want to. I understand they're fast, but that's not what makes a driver's car. It's the drama of it, which includes the noises and vibrations. I rarely listen to music when I drive because I want to hear the engine and the exhaust. Electric is just.. bland. But then I never have to drive in the city and I avoid rush hour traffic at all costs. If I were sat in a traffic jam for my entire journey, then yes, I can see why electric makes sense. But then that's not driving. You might just as well have an autonomous car and take a nap... which probably isn't far off.
@@ListingViews Oh a 2010 Clio 1,2 is far off a clio williams. It has no response in the gas, soft suspension, Only half the power with a lot more weight. It was purely for economic commute, no wheels in the air. I drove E-golf and Renault Zoe a few years ago and I could easily commute in any of them. But for the money Id probably buy a used Boxster or Cayman.
@@bingoberra18, yes, I understand that cars are becoming more bloated, and that is a problem. But I still think you can have fun in a car regardless of how slow it is. I drove a few 3 cylinder Corsas in the early 2000s and despite being slow, they sounded pretty unique, so it was still fun revving through the gears. And you can throw any car around a corner. My first car was a 1981 Morris Ital 1.3. It had 48hp. But it was on skinny tires, so was hilarious around roundabouts in the rain. But again, yes, if you have to suffer the absolute hell that is rush hour traffic, then I totally understand an electric economy car. Maybe it comes down to the question of how many cars one can afford and realistically use. Outside of my journeys to and from work, I do very little driving, so having more than one car makes no sense for me. Which means because my passion is driving, my one car needs to be fun. My current car is arguably too fast (never thought I'd say that when I was growing up). With my current driving situation where I'm rarely driving in traffic, I'd happily take a combustion engine with a third of the power before I'd take a faster electric, because it's just a more engaging drive.
On one hand, you want legislation. On the other hand, you see how when you create legislation, it has all sorts of unintended consequences that are incredibly difficult to have changed because legislation is hard to do, and hard to get people to do. I feel like the obvious example you bring up of california emissions on classic cars would immediately inform your desire for legislation of gas vehicles - how important it is to be really careful about how it's done before it has side effects no one saw coming.
While I agree we need to fix climate change but when everyone is going to electric cars and hybrids, and gas is being fazed out, I will be driving a 454 big block chevelle since I still need to experience such a thing.
I'm from Australia, and I am a huge air-cooled Porsche fan (Sorry Jason) I am a younger guy, yes I still feel as though cars like this and the same alike have the right to be on the road and to be used but we do need to make this world greener. I would gladly drive an electric car if I knew that my playful fun car was waiting for me. But the world is sadly dictated by people that don't have this in mind at all.
Why we still have busses and trucks that kill the environment is beyond me. I believe this change should have happened years ago yet no one has started to make a change to replace these with hybrids or electric and I feel that's disappointing. Start where it's hitting hard and work your way down.
Classic ICE cars will never be illegal. We've had emission standards on cars since the 60s-70s, yet all cars prior never became illegal to operate, even in CA. I applaud CA requiring all new cars sold to be electric by 2035. By then, there will be plenty of EVs for everyone to make an EV purchase that fits their specific needs.
Great show! I hope next time you set up so that you’re both looking towards the center instead of both looking left. ♥️
Good timing with the release of the new Hummer EV. Excited to hear yalls take
Am I the only one who doesnt like the look of the new hummer ev
@@johnbacon4997 I can understand why it could be a little polarizing to some. I for one think it’s pretty badass
It’s one of the most ironic things of all time.
@@aygwm did you know that the original Hummer dealerships were targeted and attacked by eco terrorists
@@hellatightdude just curious what do you drive
What a historic car enthusiast should also consider is where to find gas/benzin. If all manufacturers switch to pure electric cars in the next 10-15 years, and all the stations begin to convert to EV stations due to demand, where are you going to find a place to fill your historic car. It wouldn’t matter if you are allowed or not to drive your historic car if you cannot find gas to run it.
More reasons people are going to leave California.
The executive order is that internal combustion engine ONLY cars cannot be sold new. Not that ICE engines are banned. They just have to also be electrified. You could still buy the 918 of 2035.
I had water-cooled Volkswagens in the "period of malaise" that you speak of. They were quick, high rev'ing vehicles. 0-100 (mph).
Are you no longer posting the podcast versions on Apple?
@ISSIMI Official No, this is not the end of internal combustion engines. It can't be no matter how you look at it because cause the technology isn't there. If internal combustion engines were made illegal you would not be able to get around and Trucks, Trains, Planes, and buses would disappear. Trucks, Trains, Planes, and buses are what keep this country moving if they were to vanish grocery stores would run out of food, garbage would pile up and line the sidewalk waiting to get picked up. And some people like myself can't afford an electric car we just finished the lease and financed the rest of our 2017 Ford Edge ST and a month ago we paid off our used 2011 Volkswagen beetle And two months ago we bought a house so we can't afford an electric car. On the business side of this disaster, many people who make good money right now would lose their jobs EX: Bus and Truck Drivers, Train Engineers, Pilots, and many more! so not we won't say goodbye to the combustion engine for quite some time.
I see your point here, but it seems very shortsighted. In the Denver area, we already have light rail (running on electricity) and some busses whether it be hydrogen or natural gas. Everyone has different financial situations, but saying you can't afford an electric vehicle doesn't make sense. You have 1 fairly new vehicle, and a fine second one. That should get you through at least the next 5-7 years. You won't in theory NEED one until 2045, 10 years after they stop selling ICE new. You can typically pick up a CPO 2-3 year old electric vehicle for under $15k, unless it's a Tesla.
I don't see Electric as the long term solution at all. I feel it's hydrogen. But ICE will almost surely go away and it won't be that difficult of a transition.
@@05Forenza, I completely agree with you, I was mainly going off a video that has some relation to ICE going away witch is why my comment might have seemed short-sighted. Forget electric but even CNG/LNG or hydrogen won't pull as well as diesel does like when you have to pull 80,000 lbs up a hill or 14,000 tons across the country I just can't see anything else doing it other diesel now it's looking like unfortunately, the world is trying to do away with diesel and even if I don't like it it's the truth. I think if it really came down to it I would say Natural Gas will probably be the leading fuel as heavy equipment manufacturers offer it as an option now ex: Daimler, Paccar, Autocar, International, Caterpillar, and a few more. I more wanted to point out that electric and not specifically Tesla always isn't the answer which you seem to understand. I included my financial's in my comment to show that transitioning to an electric car is quite expensive that's all and acknowledge that it doesn't make sense as write this an hour after my first comment.
Ok, sorry to interrupt this serious topic - and I agree that emissions are a vital issue - but Yaaaaaaaaaaay my first opportunity to say that Jason is doG and Hyphen is suseJ.... Exit stage right....
Don't forget the Lexus RX300 when you mention the Explorer and such.
can we get time-stamps please🙏🏼
Help! Whaddya mean?
@@JasonCammisa oh i meant, when yall upload the podcast theres an option on youtube to subdivide the whole video in multiple small titled chapters. then its easier for us to listen to specific portions of the video . It would b great if yall did that
0:00 video begins
1:00:01 video ends
If EU ban diesel and petrol, how will delivery van deliver champagne and caviar to EU parliament in Brussels? Don't worry the EU bureaucrats will be just fine, they don't care about what the Ordinary Working People thinks. Best regards from $hithol€ (Sweden)
I love your show :D thank you guys, for that joy
Years later. If they do eliminate gas cars, the roads will start to disappear as well. I dont they will though. We dont have the elctric infrastructure to support full electric changeover. Kinda like how long it took to put gas stations in place.
Thank you for everything that you guys due for the car community. My dream car is a Subaru WRX STI, but Lucid Air is far more appealing as a daily driver. The problem for me is the cost (Im a college student).
I recommend a Nissan Leaf
R5 Turbo? Can’t wait...
I wonder what they think about the yaris grmn old school tech modern day reliability and efficiency
Great discussion. Similar thoughts could be had on autonomous cars. Big societal benefits but a mixed bag for enthusiasts! Once autonomous cars are perfected many areas might discuss banning human-driven cars.
No, resounding no. There are still a couple of decades (best case) to go for the demise of ICE. There is just too much energy in petrol and diesel (calorific value) and enough research is going on to make them even more efficient than they already are. The commercial vehicles don't have hours to spend on a charging station and they will just eat through the batteries' life given the kind of miles they do.
The ships won't abandon the ICE anytime soon either. The kind of tech required to power the huge ships electrically isn't there quite yet (yes nuclear powered ships exist but not all commercial shipping vessels are nuclear. Plus, a diesel powered ship has far greater carbon footprint than ICE powered cars.)
The only way to get rid of range anxiety is to further invest in R&D of "fast" charging stations. If it takes you 30min to get 200mi worth of charge in the batteries, it's not too feasible for long range travels either.
Not every country in the world is meeting it's energy requirements through renewable sources and as long as fossil fuels power plants exist, EVs won't ever truly be the environmentally conscious alternative to ICE vehicles. The power requirements of the countries need to be met by renewable sources first before the society adopts EVs as their vehicle of choice.
Plus batteries aren't the best choice either. Fuel cell electric vehicles are the way forward.
I love the idea of EVs but they just can’t do what I want a car to do - I own a home and have a place to plug it in but I can’t use an EV on the race track (the tracks don’t allow it near me) and I can’t use an EV for wheeling (no place to charge in the national forest). I want them but they just aren’t there yet, I will keep driving my SS 1LE and will buy a new Bronco when it comes out and will drive them until the engines blow and the wheels fall off.
As long as the electricity is generated by burning wood, coal, oil or gas there is really nothing "green" about EV driving. For now it seems to me to be a bit of scam.
Green Power!!!! sucker. its a scam dude. All power comes from all type of power planets not just solar or wind. Im all good with solar, hydro and wind. I just would not pay extra for the power. Buy solar and run you home with it and charge batteries for those days the power goes out. FYI, If you sell back to the power company then you will not have power in blackouts. Electric cars are cool but they just done sound as good @ 7 grand and I would never take a road trip in one. Great Channel followed you here from the other car show.
Wasn't the Explorers problems related to the stock Firestone tires? Also, so many people bought these vehicles with little or no experience with vehicles with such high centers of gravity. The same thing doomed the Suzuki Samuri which, sadly, is why we can't have the Jimny... which is a darn shame!!! As for climate change, it would change on its own regardless of what we do, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't change our ways and lifestyles. I just wonder if the rush to put batteries in everything is really the smart alternative when that technology is so dependent on such rare-earth materials. I personally don't think someone driving a Tesla is more caring about the environment than those that simply refuse to waste any element they bring into their homes. Even Obama admitted that simply keeping our tires to the proper PSI would save millions of gallons of gas every year. Great ideas and innovations should be non-partisan! As for exotic cars, the stats prove that these cars are used so rarely, they don't make that bad of an impact on the environment compared to the average Camry or Accord, even if equipped with hybrid drivetrains!
Why isn't this one on Spotify?
Who knows
It won't stop until it becomes cost prohibitive to buy fuel. And that won't happen till the electric infrastructure catches up to electric car sales at least. Not sure that's going to happen in only 15 years. Plus it depends where you live.
So from this conversation ice vehicles are going to be as valuable as some of the most valuable pieces of art to day. Beast buy one of those soviet era cars ! If there's any left.
At least I can drive my old Porsche into all of these “Umweltzonen” you were talking about... 😀 So no issue there so far...
Ferrari and small manufacturers are not required to meet the same regulations as larger volume manufacturers in Europe they just have to try.