I'm not yet finished with the video, but as a Lei player, I would like to disagree on some points regaring difficulty. I agree about knowledge of matchup from opponent - Lei can just go through half of his Movelist and win only by that. BUT! (there's alway a "but", you know :) ) 1. You need to learn that movelist yourself. That might not sound like tough thing, but trust me, you have to learn a whole graph of stance transfers and strings to use them properly. Maybe you're underastimating this because you're "legacy" player - and you played Lei before, I suppose. 2. In the intermediate level there's a Huge spike of difficulty - because lots of players on some stage learning that staying in block and backdashing as much as possible (an then launching and wiff-punishing) is more proffitable than staying near the opponent. And suddenly it becomes obvious that most of "turtle-openers" of Lei are waaaay riskier than ones of other characters. Add his slow-recovery animations that are giving opponent quite a time to react on animation finish - and you'll realize that Lei really has to be inventive to handle turtles. 3. Lost of his unsafe moves are either telegraphed, quite quickly learned even during match, in some cases, or just shouting about being unsafe on block. 4.He's pressure is quite often can be cut just by single jab/df1 or fast low kick. Which means that in a lot of cases you don't need to really know the matchup - just poke here and there and do not allow Lei to force his own game tempo. Still, I agree that Lei is quite strong and can be pain in the butt even on pro-level. Overall, that's a fair reward to take complex, difficult-to-learn and rare used character (almost same as playing unexpected Low-tiers in finals). You want to play Kazuya and have strong tools? Ok, no problem - but be ready that every first contestant will know how to dodge, punish and counter your every move? You're willing to spend days and weeks in Lab before even trying to play online with your character, just to learn all his movelist and basic setups? You get a reward of being mysterious. Quite fair. Aren't you agree?
And regarding good Lei players... Well, yeah, that's exactly why he's underused. You need to learn and refresh every fight in your memory HUUUUUGE amount of information to play him well. But why do you need this when you has All-Stars-All-Good Jin, free 50/50/50/50/50 throws of King or something even worse like Season 1 Dragunov? Hell, even Kazuya is much simpler - you need to have great execution, yes. But that comes with a practice. And after practice you just have to use one of several well-designed attack/defence patterns and folow through with them (like Debuts in chess). While playing Lei is more like playing poker - but with chess, dices and mandatory flute-piano playing :) Yet again, I'm not trying to say that Lei isn't strong. But It's a character for life to learn and has some significant downsides as well. If you're looking into bigger picture - please, do not turn down downsides (no pun intended) in your reviews as well. Like, for me playing Lei on the first 60-70% of time was both fun and painfull hell at the same time.
18:09 "You can't have your cake and eat it at the same time". Except if you're Jin :) Then you can eat cake, steak, drink glass of Martini and go to bedroom with your opponent's wife :)
22:45 - yessss, exactly what I mentioned previously - at some point lots of people start to turtling against unknown characters. And poor range does not help to deal with it eaither.
@@MrNinjafreak I've heard them get pissed and scream on their mics online. Obviously not every single Nina player is like this, but a big percentage of them are.
"It'd be weird for a character to have good offense, punishment and mixup potential, you can't have your cake and eat it" *Glances at Jin and Devil Jin*
Jin's a bit confusing on the person using him though, in my opinon Devil Jin is a better choice because even low knowledge of the character gets you places, with Jin you need to know a lot more it seems. But yes overall, in terms of...Well everything behind the hands of a good player, these two just have it good in every area.
Apperently, the new trend is “my character it's hard, not easy or viceversa”... I know everyone has their opinions, but, for me, this argument is starting become really stupid.
@@hollowwraith4513 well, I use Chloe and Eliza. Everytime someone say something to me, I ignore them or I respond to them. And I don't switch character, why should I do it?
Hollowwraith451 don’t care about others opinions man. If you win a match or your opponent doesn’t know how to deal with something the match is over before it even started, it’s their job to adapt or get rekt
you only need 10 minutes to lab gigas, and you will know everything about how to deal Gigas, and imagine Gigas players has to use stuff that every character knows how to punish... and its very easy at that.
Ik Gigas is a very low tier character. He needs a very good overall buff. As TMM previously stated. Calm down guys. I meant for that comment to be a joke lol.
Eh, I understand both sides, and am a long time user of Lei myself. It's both hard to counter 200 moves, but it takes crazy amounts of dedication to learn, place and properly use Leis 200 moves. Which is WHY no one is playing him lol hes hard to learn, and us definitely a character you MUST put tins of time into to use effectively. In the other hand, if the time is put in, THEN yes his moveset becomes a big problem. Very complicated character to use AND defend against. So to me, hes right down the middle and is average when you take into account offense, defense, beginning, intermediate, high level and pro levels all together. Those 200 moves also have to be learned to be used against the entire cast offensively. Lei is only easy once learned. Hes not a character you're just going to pick up and destroy everyone with. Katarina, Noctis, yeah they can do it easily in early stages, but as stated in multiple videos, in higher levels, those characters effectiveness goes down. Its difficult to play with fundamentals either Lei and you damn near have to rely and hope your opponent either doesn't know or just guesses wrong with his mixups. If Lei was that simple, we'd see more of him for sure. He takes more work than most are willing to put in. I think B tier is correct indeed.
Shondarian Nelson this man has arguably the best offense in the game, all he has is mix. that’s why his other shit is ass. you got 100 launching mids paired w the same amount of lows. thank god his shit is unsafe
I think main man's right, just on the fact that it's inherently harder to defend than to attack, so all the time that you put into your character main as a lei player, means you're putting an uneven brunt of lei's complexity onto your opponent and with his low usage it's harder for people to deal with since they don't know the match up, BUT it's still very hard to come up with good mix up that's useful, it takes a lot of knowledge and creativity, you can't just spam your way with lei, you have to know precise transition points, have good timing, his magic 4's require serious execution, a lot of his staple combos require serious execution, and you combine that with poor frames, even noobs can whiff punish and punish things on block instinctively knowing nothing from a technical standpoint about frame data, so the creativity required from lei plus his shit frames etc. balance things out a little more than mainman gives credit for I think. but over all i think he's right about it being harder for the opponent in the end but not as right as he thinks he is about the character being easy over all.
@@stevenburton4966 I mean with Lei, because he doesn't have any plus frames on block unlike certain characters you just have to constantly disrespect him with dickjabs and you'll be mostly safe.
Ok. All of these people are fool of themselves. I play Hwoarang and he is super cheap in beginner and intermediate. The hard part of his is that in high level ranks people realize that Hwoarang can't guard in flamingo at all. So when you see people bouncing around on one leg like they have pro status, understand that us Hwoarang players are just acting like d-bags. Hwoarang is super unsafe, and much like Kazuya, needs space to do anything. This is apart of why there is the lore of Hwo and Steve. Steve is pressure in your face, Hwo is high pressure with spacing. And more/most importantly, Hwoarang's stances DO NOT crush anything. Lei literally lays flat on the fucking floor, or dances around the entire map just by going into stance.
2:16 I think you should listen to what he said more closely, TMM. He didn't say: " *if you don't know* how to counter most of his gimmicks you will lose" He said: "if you don't know how to counter razor rush, but instead *you know* how to counter most of his gimmicks, you will lose"
@@Tongue.Tornado but his mais argument is that it's better to know how to counter one move instead of focusing on the various strings that Lei has. That diminishes the lab-character argument (even though he contradicts himself later while talking about Lei's strengths)
Everyone tends to mix the opinion of character difficulties between Noob and Pro player. TMM try to separate it and say that these gimmick character is easy "at the beginner to intermediate" but hard "at pro". But everyone who debate with him try to mix these thing up and say "I dont care about Beginner to intermediate, I will talk about Pro only, and you said that he is easy(at beginner to intermediate) so you are wrong" You guys dont even debate on the same term, WTF man. It's started to get boring.
i agree to most of tmm's opinion but i don't really get what he means when he said kazuya is hard on beginner and intermediate.. in previous videos he always says that kazuya in the beginner to intermediate can get away with lots of hellsweeps because player at that level rarely ducks or try to predict it or even stepping to the left.. doesn't that makes kazuya easy on beginner and intermediate, and gets harder later on high and pro? or is he talking about execution? bcs kazuya really rely on the basics of tekken such as movements, punish and the oki.. and that needs time to learn, but then i don't think he's talking about the same thing he talks about with lei.. me very much confusion
easy or hard i dont really care. i dont main lei, but i play him quite often. it's really a shame that he has such a low playrate. because in my opinion he is easily on of the most interresting characters ever, and he has so much potential. im incredibly grateful that he was eventually added to the game, and im just completely in love with how he turned out for tekken 7. but i fear that he wont be in the next tekken game, and that would really be a shame.
Given how much people complained, even AFTER he was added into the game, Harada confirmed that he's never going to do shit like that again for characters that wind up not being in future Tekken games. It also doesn't help the fact that all the complainers stayed quiet as fuck when their mains returned, thus the low play rates. It's sad, really.
Janne-K ya know maybe If lei players did cool stuff I would be interested in playing him but the only leis I see online are the cheesy spammers which ruin his image. Maybe if we could have someone get him to the next level I would be convinced but for now he’s just gonna stay where he’s at
Im getting serious with Tekken 7 now, and Lei is my character of choice. I fucking love his playstyle. I love the wide range of moves. It IS, however, quite intimidating when I hear how people always tell me how "trash" he is or how he can never perform well in higher tier play. That and I keep hearing: A) He can't punish shit at all. Or if you can, its pretty pathetic. B) Unsafe moves? Like a ton of them? If not all? But I refuse to let it stop me. I don't care if he's not "perfect" or "top tier". To hell with it. Lei is awesome, and he feels so unique. I love his personality and I feel he's the character for me, who thrive on being unpredictable and a bit of a "wild card" when it comes to fighting games. I'm sure the journey to master him will be... Ruthless and absolutely rough, but what isn't? Can't wait for my new fightstick to arrive on friday.
I really like how Mainman's thumbnail seems like he is just a massive clickbait troll enjoying "the salt", but actually puts in the time and effort to be open minded and concise enough about his opinion and actually stir good debate/conversation about the game overall. So refreshing to watch this unlike the nina video, that was just a clusterfuck of arguments and flame, much like her strings lol.
I can see that you care a lot about Tekken. You want everyone to get the most out of it and you're actually taking their skill level into consideration. I appreciate you. Thanks MAIINMANNNN
Actually hes doing the opposite, hes bringing attention to these "cheesy" chars and encouring players to badmouth other players who play certain chars, in high rank no one rly gives a shit what u play but in beginner/intermediate this is gonna become an issue
@@BoONeo No, what you've said is incorrect. TMM has said on multiple occasions to play whichever character you enjoy playing. The people bringing attention to these "cheesy" characters are the butt hurt players who complain about the TMM's argument, without actually listening to his argument first. They just like all the attention they're getting.
@@BoONeo I agree. Tekken is just a game some people take it too seriously with all this character bullshit. It's stupid. Just play the game to play. Like damn
when he makes videos by himself, or responds to those whose arguments are dead wrong, TMM ridicules people/characters. in this video, because alltimes was nice to TMM in his response, and even gave many arguments in support of TMM, TMM reciprocated his manners and professionalism and didn't ridicule this time. unfortunately, because alltimes was so nice to give points to TMM, TMM misinterpreted most of those points as "evidence" and most of this video was responding to incomplete points. but if alltimes was more direct, TMM might have trash talked, so this may be for the best.
@@Viewer13128 Didn't "trash talk" (whatever that's supposed to mean) that Nina player, that Jin player, or that Akuma player, even though they all had a pretty hostile attitude from the beginning. What are you even talking about?
Actually he has 13 stances: Snake Dragon Crane Panther Tiger Phoenix Drunken boxing Backturn Face up, feet towards Face up, feet away Face down, feet towards Face down, feet away And Crouching snake is a mini stance (db+1 to enter it) which you can get a decent mixup out of, so I think it counts. Lei is not a hard character. I play him when I want to play Tekken at 4am after a long days work when I want to chill and get easy wins with zero stress. Otherwise, I main mostly kazuya, Im passionate about heihachi and devil Jin, and mess around with Armor king and Jin. Lei is my “I don’t give a shit, let’s just have some fun” character. He’s in low violet ranks on ps4 right now.
Due to what I've been seeing on PS4 lately I'm gonna wait until I have money, buy the Noctis DLC and that's it, I'm sick of trying to use skill in this game because nobody else does. I'm looking at you Alissa mains...
Family Of Catbugs I have been using Noctis since last June. 6000 plus wins in Quick Match. You will not regret it. When I run into other cheese characters with Noctis, he destroys. Tons of no rematch and disconnects. You might even love it.
Great analysis, you have discussed this many times before but some people just don't get it. I agree with your philosophy centered on the vast majority as opposed to the relative few who "master" the matchup.
They want the best of both worlds. They want to pick an easy character and have everyone applaud them for playing such a difficult character. TMM is just putting people in their place lol.
@@chillskid Doesn't mainman play a relatively easy character? electrics are easy, mixups are easy. he has solid moves and a power-crush that provides great mixups. he's nothing compared to the gameplan you need to create when it comes to unorthodox characters.
This guy was better than the Nina player and put his points forward in such a way that TheMainMan could elevate the entire discussion. TMM has the defining point and argument with his insistence on examining the entire arc of Tekken character skill and difficulty. This allows us to get a picture of the entire Tekken experience for each character. Excellent analysis from tmm.
You misunderstood/misheard what he said at 2:00. He said that if you don't know how to counter razorrush, but you DO know how to counter most of his gimmicks you will lose. So he basically said that hitting the lab on razorrush is the thing that actually matters.
Lei is a character that should be in every Tekken game. He's iconic, he was my main, and the only reason I'm not playing him is because he's locked behind a paywall
Coming from my friend, who has played Lei for many years, says that it is near impossible to master this character. Every Lei plays him differently, which is what makes Lei even more scary. There are definitely more Lei’s that are starting to show themselves, and this character is extremely fun to watch.
What I don't actually get is why you would put Lei in bottom tier of difficulty, and Ling slightly above him. Even if we assume for the moment that all stance based characters are easy, Ling is almost universally agreed to be the easiest one of the lot. Not to mention AoP alone is enough to destroy people at lower rankings.
well, TMM was biased as F against lei, and in this video, he simply avoided addressing this, since alltimes made a respectful/professional video, so TMM can't spew his bias in this response video. give TMM some time and (hopefully not) he will trash talk lei for no reason again.
@@shad0wmech being mean is his choice, which i am fine with, because it can be a youtube persona. i'm only commenting on his faulty logic and bias, leading to misinformation. It's not just about 1 character. a lot of the time, TMM will say something that is merely theory (or his personal philosophy), but use it as fact (very smoothly), and then use that non-fact as the core basis for any point he goes on to make. he then constructs his argument logically, which anyone unfamiliar with research methods would see as highly valid. then rather than saying that it is his opinion/theory/philosophy, he says his final conclusion is therefore the truth/reality. *basically, the simple definition is indoctrination...* the irony is that he might actually not realize this since he might not be educated in the concept of "validity", which is even more painful to watch as he gets emotionally invested on top of everything. TMM does this with players, characters, tier lists, to play styles. ofc, sometimes, he only does it because he needs new content. so again, i'm fine if his youtube personality is mean/nice/etc. if it gets him views. I'm only critiquing his information. i'm fine if he says it's his opinion *and that others' opinions may be right,* but TMM doesn't do that. he either: (1) uses his theory, but masks it as fact, and then states his opinion as fact, or (2) admits it's his opinion, and then denies/trashes any other opinion/argument (which technically is no different than saying his opinion is fact), or (3) sarcastically says that others can be right while letting you know he doesn't mean it (which again is not different than saying that his opinion is the truth). in fact, whenever he admits something as his opinion and then goes on to reject other opinions, his statement is by default logically incompatible, yet he continues to build his point in a logical way... possibly without realizing what he is doing. and he usually honestly believes that opposing views are stupid, and actually thinks he is educating them, and then starts cracking jokes/insults. so again, i'm not critiquing his youtube personality, i'm critiquing his poor methodology and information, which he spreads *very persuasively.*
@@Viewer13128 You say that its his opinion, and he says its his opinion many many many many many times he says this. And you're complaining that he says his opinion and...believes it? and says it like he believes it? isn't that the idea? When someone has an opinion that they want to spread shouldn't they believe it over other peoples. And he does agree with the lei player that lei is hard to play, at late high and top level. thats his opinion, you can disagree with him but he doesn't ever claim something as fact unless it actually is. He repeatedly says that he "Thinks" not he "knows" his opinion is right. You just seem to be someone who dislikes the creator and therefore dislikes his opinion and dislikes the way he presents it. If it offends you how he argues so much, then don't watch the videos, or just watch the video disagree and move on. (And also you have to remember he argues similar to how a lawyer would, because he is in law school, Thats why you think he is putting of what he is saying as fact instead of what he thinks)
I dont even play much Tekken but I just love watching your videos because you care so deeply about Tekken and your passion variety of videos and overall personality just keeps me watching
This was actually a pretty good watch, the Lei main actually was pretty respectable and informative, and so were you MainMan, which made this a really interesting discussion video. Always glad to see people can be chill AF when debating about Tekken
Totally true. I used to play it during a lot of years in Tekken 3, Tag tournament, T4, etc .. in arcade machines, so I bought as separated DLC in Tekken 7 for steam PC and, of course, is harder to use than ever. I mean, combos needs specific timing between buttons and movements don't flush as easy as it was in the past. PD: Playing with Lei is like practizing Choy Li Fut; it requires to memorize a very, larger lot of movements correctly, so you only need to fail in one of them while chaining it, and then, you probably lose.
Thanks for the clear explanation behind that opinion. It's a combination of having a lot of tools(good or bad) and the under usage that makes him 'easy' to play. Btw, nice touch mentioning Ranca and Tetsuo. Those guys are legends and can even give Knee's t5dr Bryan a run for his money.
Well, I always found Lei harder than any other character. Not because of execution but because in order to make him effective you need to remember and mix a million things. I always found Mishima's easier cause execution is easier for me than remembering a million strings, stances and combinations. Which is why I believe no one plays Lei. It's such a chore to become competent to utilise his confusing offence.
@@TheBlackBossalini305 you're right, it does make him easy to use at those ranks though, which is the point he is saying but people like yourself are ignoring.
@@TheBlackBossalini305 yeah I can see how every character can be easy in lower ranks. But some of them you have to actually know for that to be the case. As you mentioned obviously Lee, but for most Mishimas you need to have some decent degree of execution to make them "easy" down there. And I would say characters with strong keepout and defense are much easier down there than other characters. Like Bryan is what I climbed out of lower ranks with, 3+4 orbital were all I needed because people never stop pushing buttons and running in. So I can see where you're coming from.
@AAKS They're why I stopped playing the game, so sick of seeing Alisa's for maybe 20 matches in the row, I see a Kazuya after that I beat him in the first two matches, he quits and then another 50 matches against Alisa, so boring... Sometimes Nina's and Asuka's show up too, anyone else is a God send except Bob.
@@DreamerFromTheDepths I'm pretty sure there are some good Alissa players out there, I guess it's just been your luck that you ran into the scrubby ones lol. I'm like the opposite of you, I've never run into an Alissa yet online.
11:04 You don't know what it is supposed to mean?? lol He was abundantly clear. The argument that he wanted to counter is that Lei is difficult because he has many moves, does not show up often and is a lab character (people have to get ready for 200 moves blah blah blah..). In his example, he used Lei's razor rush a lot to ILLUSTRATE the notion that you don't need to know how to exactly counter ALL OF HIS MOVES.....just the most important ones.
He probably should have shown footage of someone who knew how to counter razor rush though. The fact that this was a fairly good opponent who still couldn't handle it kinda supports the idea that Lei isn't that hard to play.
@@Regdren The problem with your comment is that TMM never claimed that Lei is easy to use because of his fucking razor rush and how hard it is to counter. His claim is predicated around the notion that Lei has so much weird shit, that you have to lab him a lot (even mentioned the silly 200 number a lot)......which was the notion the guy was addressing in the first place..
I've been playing Tekken casually for most of my life, starting from Tekken 1 in the arcades in 1994. I basically only began taking it seriously since Tag Tournament 2. Unfortunately I took a bit of a break, and only recently started trying to get into Tekken 7 seriously. Unfortunately, I've found myself struggling against people who have been playing seriously for YEARS, with the result being frustration, especially mastering characters like this (in my case, King), because, Tekken is NOT an easy game to get into, especially when you haven't been playing it hardcore for at least a decade or two. Add to the fact you ALSO have to learn how your character(s) matches up with OTHER characters, lol, well, yeah....
So is the new trend to be triggered if TMM doesn't think your character is hard? So far, Nina mains have been off one, and now Lei's? Are Alisa players gonna fly into the fray next? Find out next time on DifficultBall T!
Nah people are just tired of him putting down characters that aren't mishimas Lee Steve or hwoarang. Yes it is his opinion but he acts as a voice for lower level players and it's not necessarily helpful if he's bad mouthing a lot of characters (he talks really bad about asuka xiaoyu capos and the females)
Eh, fair point. I do feel it would be a bit different if he was sorta wrong, you know? Cause so far (from what I've seen of course, there's probably plenty examples to the contrary), it isn't unwarranted piss taking-- some of the stuff has some weight I'd reckon. As far as being a voice for low levels, I don't mind it too much. You got the tutorial channels like Blasted Salami, Aris' giant ass Beginner-Intermediate playlist, and hell; even Tendo and Arsenalty for guides and shit but you really don't see the "Here's the distinction between new guys and gods. These characters operate differently in relation". It's a good flip of content if you ask me.
@@hollowwraith4513 He's mentioned before that his opinion shouldn't be taken heavily. He hates Alissa but he even said if you enjoy and like Alissa then play her and don't give a shit about TMM's opinion.
As Anna player I know a good way to deal with Lei. Just press him to death and don't allow to use his moves, overwhelm him with Anna's tornado of pressure, use CJ to launch him every time when this cheesy cop tries to do low hit. Suddenly Lei players don't want to play against character with 200 moves, strings, stances, chain-throws, parries, auto counter hits, mixups and super-fast rage art.
1 Year, 500 complaints and 250 Videos later and there will still be someone claiming that "insert character of your choice" is harder than its actually the case. Not that im complaining, i enjoy these kinds of respond videos. Also #NINAISEASY
I think alltimes is trying to say that you shouldn't "defend" against Lei but always try to interrupt/counter attack him. Down-jab and Hopkick him out of his stance. If he is in his stance, why not attack him??? Why would you take the mixup if you know very well that Lei has a crazy strong mixup but bad frames? So yeah, dont try to lab and learn him, try to throw out more hopkicks/dikkjabs :P
Alltimezzz made a video on how to counter Lei when he was first released. He wants people to know how to beat Lei. But in Tekken 7 sure he has gimmicks but you still have to work for a win against low ranks because they are full aggro and dick jab/hop kick everything.
To characters that have a strong mixup with bad punishment, if they want to they can just force a mixup instead of a punishing the opponent properly, which is still very good than getting nothing
I agree with this to a certain extent but I don't think there is any talk about how difficult it is to learn this huge bag of tricks and how it all works. You are talking about the huge responsibility it puts on the opponent to know your character, but the Lei player himself has to go through this same struggle when learning how to play Lei. if we are taking everything into account and being as detailed as possible surely we have to acknowledge that he must have a different difficulty curve than Noctis, because if you let two absolute beginners fight with those two characters the Noctis is going to win. Just remembering a small portion of his possibilities is hard for the Lei player. for that reason I would say Lei has more of a bell curve in terms of difficulty, because despite being hard to fight I can't imagine he's the sort of character you'd recommend an absolute beginner start out with. In Dan ranks there's plenty of characters easier to get a win with. So I think he starts out as difficult, then gets easier as the knowledge gap widens between you and the opponent along with offense being easier than defense. Then from pro up he starts to get difficult when the knowledge gap shrinks back down.
Yeah, nothing wrong with the theory that you want to rank differently for different tiers.. But lei isn't easy to play at all in beginner.. You talk about how much responsibility it puts on your opponent because of his huge varied move list.. Except when you are beginner, you aren't labbing out your opponents, you are learning to play your own, so that responsibility is on the player. Actually I still won't lab out my opponents because I don't want my video games to be a chore, but almost no one is doing this at beginner. The easy chars at beginner are the characters that have powerful spam moves that are super easy to pull off. At beginner though, you have hellsweep, it doesn't get you far, but I think that alone puts Lei in medium instead of hard at the beginning. Intermediate I think Lei is also hard to play. I'm not sure if people will "lab out" lei or not, but it doesn't so much matter when you are playing many matches in a row with the same opponent. You need to try to constantly be changing your gameplay. With lei, something only works if it catches the opponent off guard and you need to be unpredictable all the time. You need to be trying to get into your opponents head and changing constantly so they never catch on to what you are doing, if you start to repeat yourself you are toast, which is very tough to pull off in my opinion, and what makes him so fun to play... I find playing with xiaoyu means I need to think a lot less. Then again, maybe I just suck at him. I'm pretty sure one of the big reasons no one plays him is because he's so damn hard to learn
But you gotta remember that it’s harder to learn how to counter a move than it is to use it. Sure, you can learn all 200 moves if you want which would be really difficult but do you, as a lei player, really need to do that? No one plays this guy, he has 200 moves, like 13 stances, no one knows how to fight him, all of which makes it considerably easier to play him. Realistically, would you learn the matchup of a character no one plays? One with 13 stances, learning how to punish each of them just to never use that knowledge because no one wants to to touch him?
This is just my opinion as someone who only got into tekken with 7 and picked up lei as soon as he was released as he seemed interesting and fun.firstly i agree that lei has an advantage due to his extensive move list and one of the things i like is his options (i'm a hwoarang player as well for the same reason) but something i feel hasn't been really discussed is how hard he is to learn in the first place just to use there are a lot of stance transitions to know when to use for what reason and being aware where you are in his move list and which stance you're in and where you want to be and the best path to get there. and i find the moment i lose concentration or my mind goes blank for a second he falls apart really quickly. while i'm not going to argue that he's an incredibly difficult character i feel the points i have made offset the difficulty in defending against him somewhat and would say in my opinion he would be average difficulty. sorry for the long comment just wanted to give my opinion as best as i could
Something is wrong here.... if Lei is so f****** easy to use why there is so little people to play the character?? If TMM's phylosophy was true there should be a bunch of Lei's cheeseing online... In my opinion TMM's trolling on Lei and some other characters (also TMM's "Difficulty Tierlist") is based only about him experiencing difficulties in defending against those characters... For example I find Steve or Lee hard to defend against - it is my subjective opinion... and so is yours MR TMM about Lei ;P
Because there are characters that also are really easy to play (ex: Katarina, Noctis, etc) that more people find more compelling, either for their personality, playstyle, specific moves, or just familiarity with the character (ex: Fatal Fury/KOF players playing Geese when they move over to Tekken). Also, at 3:40, MainMan talks about Lei's play rate in previous games being low, so it is safe to say that Lei just doesn't appeal to many Tekken players, at least gameplay wise. And since his cheese isn't strong enough to make him a Jin/DJ, people looking for easy wins look to other characters.
Not going to lie, I'm loving the discussions the Tekken community are having because of TMM's tier lists. So much more information is just getting distributed now. Hope it continues!
I really love playing Lei, but honestly he is pretty easy. If he wasn’t I wouldn’t be able to play him because I’m a green rank dweller, and T7 is my first fighting game. His execution is piss easy, he has a bunch of 60+ combos that take zero execution, and things like his uf3+4 into bt d1 blow people up in lower ranks. I honestly only use like 6 different mix ups consistently because I’m dumb and thats all I can handle for now. Lei even has a great oki vortex that works surprisingly consistently with the db4 or ff3 mix up. Lei is awesome, complex, confusing, weird, and easy and that is why I love him.
Execution isn't everything, you're going to get to a point where you face better players than you and then its gonna be about how are you even going to land a combo on this guy or get any kind of damage in, that's where lei becomes harder to use
@@razorscootervs.ankles8152 Oh yeah that's what main man is saying, and I agree. Lei is easy in low ranks, and I can understand how he's not as powerful when I fight good players that can deal with his nonsense.
@@machinejuice5965 I think people feel like he's saying "lei is one of the easiest characters to use" which he kind of gives off that feeling but he's just saying generally he's easy to pick up in play but not among the easiest which is true. Other people are inadvertently arguing he's one of the hardest to master which I can definitely agree with but that's not the argument here. I disagree with his whole "you need to lab this character to do well against him" argument because it just isn't true with lei, he's very vulnerable and risky compared to xiaoyu the s tier cheese monster, and can easily be interrupted and blown up
@@razorscootervs.ankles8152 Totally. I play Ling as well actually and she is easier in a lot of ways. Lei is definitely a riskier character. He's not the easiest lab character, but I feel he still is one. at least in lower ranks were fundamentals are utilized very well. He's just confusing to fight, and I'm getting a lot of mileage out of that. Once I keep progressing and getting better I'm sure Lei will be hard when I have to actually remember of all his stances and mix ups and his weirdo rage drives.
I'm obviously not MainMan, but I think the idea is that Lei can sort of cheese his way through the lower ranks, while Kazumi doesn't have the insanely confusing pressure to deal with. She's a lot more centered around fundamentals.
I agree with the idea of viewing competative balance from the perspective of where most of the player base actually is. Personally I think Lei is very hard to win with at beginner level because everyone is just running their offense. The 50/50 game is less effective against people less concerned with defense. I think that's where a lot of the push back on this take is coming from. It's a struggle to get Lei past Green ranks. He gets stronger at intermediate imo. I can't speak to high or pro.
I was honestly worried when this showed up. But I'm glad to see the way this was approached. This whole topic of characters difficulty is something I'm not a fan of. After one of TMM's videos about Lei, I've actually been told that I play a "pay to win" character, since he is DLC.. It's too bad that's the kind of behaviour that comes out of this.
@Michael Lei isn’t a “pay to win” character. That would be Noctis since he is the easiest character in the game, but when you hit high/pro level it gets difficult.
If people don't realize that this game is designed to work at two levels (beginner to intermediate, and casuals vs. high level and competition), and that you will ALWAYS have two sets of character gameplay experiences for players, then they need to stop making op eds that show them to be ignorant like this. TMM is one of the few T ekken vets that acknowledges this, which indicates that he knows what he is talking about. I get real sick of these other goons that are solipsistic A.F., and like a true narcissist, thinks that the way THEY experience the game, is the only way it can be experienced. 99% of people play at beginner to post-intermediate ranks, and what TMM is saying is addressed to this group. Tekken is not just the 1% pro player scene. A lot of people are sitting at a rank plateau at yellows or reds, wondering what the hell is going on - what is going on is that you are moving from one type of play (beginner\intermediate) to another type (post-intermediate\high) not understanding that you probably need to revisit your entire playing style and fundamentals skill level. Everybody seems to want to jump on TheMainManSWE, but they always end up looking incorrect, immature, or self-centered.
To be honest, I couldn't use Lei until T7 and it was because of his move list. I just didn't know what to do, until I could see the input for the sample combos and grew from that. Would've used him before and helped those usage stats. Yoshi is another one of the characters but now he's my main. Wow. Up until TTT2, I was probably stuck in green ranks. Or never made it past warrior. And I'd been playing since T3. Super casually.
Even at beginner level I wouldn't say lei is a beginner friendly character, he isn't the hardest thing ever for beginners but there's a lot more thinking involved when using him. The different between lei and characters like kazuya is that kazuya is hard to execute with overall and that's what makes him hard to use after beginner level, where as lei is a character you have to do a lot of thinking with to get your results. The "he's hard to defend against" argument isn't a good one considering most characters can out pressure him
He is especially beginner friendly because his strings are not hard to do, and seem very random to those who aren't familiar to the character with a weird mix of high lows, 2-3 hit strings, sitting on the floor etc. I don't know if you really play ranked but in reality characters like him with unorthodox movements/style along with his gimmicks are an easy way to crush beginner to intermediate level players.
@@Jonathan-cz4ky I do play ranked an I use lei too, whether they know the match up or not lei is easily counter by characters with better and easier to access tools or just overall good pressure. When I think of beginner friendly characters I look at characters with simple move sets with low risk high reward moves, lei isn't one of those. Sure you can cheese a few people with db44 and razor rush all day but even in lower ranks it isn't going to last long, much less effective compared to characters like lili, katarina or kazumi. As a beginner, they're going to hit a point where they're asking themselves "how do I get more out of this character or how do I improve?" His execution is easy but taking in information to use this character as a beginner is going to throw them off
@@razorscootervs.ankles8152 Point is that in comparison to most other characters, in beginner to intermediate ranks lei is not seen as much, therefore character knowledge is lacking. Because of this, and the fact that spamming his strings are not hard to do, he would be considered an easier character than most at these ranks. You're still thinking higher level play when you talk about other characters having "better and easier access to overall tools or just overall pressure". In high level play this would be true because they know how to punish and use their move set, frame advantage, proper movement etc. This is not the case in beginner to intermediate. Steve has amazing pressure in his move list and his b1 as punish/counter launcher, and yet this doesnt matter when lei is hitting you with strings you have no idea how to punish properly, nor know how to properly space yourself. What's considered better tools and great pressure is completely different in beginner/intermediate ranks. That's why Green rank Bryans get away with snake edge.
@@Jonathan-cz4ky I wasn't even thinking only about high level play when I said the easier to access and overall better tools, I was speaking as someone who's gone against Paul's, lilis, kazumis, and Steve's and gotten eaten alive with counterhits or just out pressured at times. Leis strings don't natter when you're getting hit with Steve's faster and counter hit heavy strings. Leis strings aren't even the most confusing thing about him honestly other than razor rush. Thing is in lower level play players tend to throw out more moves way more often, and I'm basically saying that a lot of the characters that other people use have more and better/abusable options when it comes to throwing out panic moves and it'll often beat leis options because of his weakness. I main Yoshi so I'm use to this in a character
@@razorscootervs.ankles8152 Dude you keep talking about faster counter hit strings and being out pressured when this isn't even done properly in early ranks. Lei's strings are extremely confusing to not as good olayers and it's even shown in TMM's videos and live streams of him going up against actual players that he's able to sit there and spam over and over and players are not able to counter because they are scared/panicky. You can't argue with definitive proof literally on video
There are different types of difficulty, not only depending on level of play, but also difficulty of WINNING AS A CHARACTER, and difficulty of PULLING OFF WHAT YOU WANT TO DO, you should consider that when you're comparing difficulties of different characters. Like it's easy to win as Jin, but there are some things to drop like electrics or another stuff, or it's hard to win as a Gigas, but he has no stuff to drop or misinput
It's simple, you are both right. Lei has terrible frames so it's kind of hard to learn him (You have to use a lot of moves to compensate) But at the same time, it's true that you never see him and you are easily stressed by all his weird mix-ups. ..... You can't solve this problem because you are two différent player. One learn hundered of moves and timing for his character and train to use them in unique situation. The other learn the key moves of the others character and play defensively, trying to punish the others misstakes.
@@bigdsweet Leis only ranged options are FF3 and TIG4 are the only Rangey options Lei has, Noctis rules the neutral that's why the matchup is bias towards noctis. Its not as bad as what Alltimeszzz put but its pretty harsh
@@bujinfujin8603 TIG4 is not that far. I would say d/f 3 is a good ranged move but it sucks even when you do hit. Lei is stumpy. I would say Lei has some of the worst neutral in the game. Whenever I go to play Kaz or even Asuka I feel like I can stay the face of my opponent. I can only do that with Lei in a stance.
@@bujinfujin8603 tiger 4 is not a ranged option, and you can enjoy being punished/launched because when u are in tiger, they are waiting for that slow low launcher to whiff and 100% prepared to punish/launch you. tiger 4 has deceptive range, but it's just deceptive, not long range compared to other characters. compared to leis own moves, then yea because lei's range sucks.
I picked up Lei a little while ago, and let me tell you, it’s a A LOT to remember. The guy TMM is critiquing, I actually watch and have learned a lot from him. Lei’s range is so awful, and you have to remember a ton of things while you play him. He’s got so many options and mix ups, and tricky execution, it’ll take awhile to master him
Alltimes is the complete opposite of B.Minus (the Nina player). He actually explained his take on the character very well and didn't shit on TMM for allegedly being bad at Tekken while using a dairy product waifu that carries players. If there's anything I've learned here is that waifu-players aren't respected for a reason...
Kat only has three things that are hard: 1.) Wall stomp. 2.) Converting off just CH 4. 3.) Using EWTF (ff24) as a block punisher at -13-14. None of it is really that hard. Kat's a little harder to play than Shaheen/Kazumi at top level, but she's overall pretty easy.
it is easily to understand, the razor attack is already hard to counter against in addition of Lei other 200 moves, it is what he intend to say. But in high level in tekkie is more about poke fencing mix up, then all out mashing mixup buttons.
i agree with you here completely that all levels of play should be considered when judging a character's difficulty. Personally i am a yoshi player he is quite unique with his frames and tools and has different approaches to different skill levels. At lover level play you'll be throwing around unsafe moves and going into stances willy nilly, loving on that fcdf4 that is minus hop-kick while at higher level play you are almost afraid to throw that move out as well as use some of your stances. Flea is hard to approach besides it being back-turned (in that case it is a god stance and will literally kill everything) and by the wall. Kin is your run of the mill stance that yoshi uses in combos mix ups and pressure primarily. just trying to give a few examples but long story short, his game-plan and move choice changes a ton as you progress with your tekken career. (getting to a higher level made me appreciate iws4, b1 and iws1 with yoshi) {ending note: i think that yoshi becomes slightly easier in higher level play because people are familiar with your bag of tricks and you can construct more mix-ups and bait reactions or particular oki options from your opponent when his tool are correctly applied.}
ok, I play this character a lot and let me tell you first hand that it is very tough, you can't just rely on a couple of moves for everything; Unlike ora or Dragunov wr2 or jin's f4. His 50/50 are strong but u need to into his stances to truly maximize it. Not to mention his stances has weakness where you cant block mids or lows. His rave sweep is launch punishable by everyone, his punishment is better only than Anna's, he truly lacks plus on block moves, his razor rush is only a potent weapon when you are well versed with his stances and know what you wanna do next. Not to mention even his RDs are also locked behind his stances and there are only a couple of good moves that help you transition into them quickly. So, my point is, just causes you main a Kazuya and your execution is 'hard', doesn't mean everything else is easy. No amount or charts or arcs help you when you have 100 plus moves you need to link together in tandem and worry about all the interruptions the opponent might try.
He's kinda said it already haha. His 50/50 vortex in low ranks is insane, especially cuz people don't approach Tekken as a 3D game. Literally what he said.
@@Alpdude Yeah it is there but the fact that you can just force your opponent to guess with crazy good oki after hellsweep is just godly on any level a guess is a guess doesnt matter the level
Razor rush as most ppl think of it is NOT Lei's "best move" not by a long shot. Also, because a character has "200" moves does NOT make him great, dangerous, hard to defend or what have you. Especially when only a few of those 200 are actually viable. Many ppl are NOT using Lei properly. In my competitive time at one point I was in the conversation of "Lei of America" with Suikenuser. I'm Blood Red from New York and if I had 10 mins with TMM SWE, I'd blow his mind on what Lei can truly do and what moves to actually use.
Does anyone else find it funny that he put gigas at s tier for hard match? Not a lei man but that has to feel bad if thats consistent among lei players
So are people suppose to feel a certain way for playing "easy" or "hard" characters or something? I'm just trying to understand the end goal of all this.
He mentions his student always tell him why they are getting destroyed by Noctis even when Noctis never won a tournament. That should give you an idea.
I personally heavily disagree with TMM, I think Lei *is* very hard, but people gotta stop making videos solely to debunk what he said. There’s no real point in doing it. It’s just a bunch of time, editing, etc. only to make a video that’s gonna end up with more dislikes than likes.
TMM says an opinion, people take it too highly, they either go 'TMM said it so it MUST be true!' or 'How could he?! I must debunk him!', TMM replies in a video and it goes on and on. It's basically a never-ending cycle. People from both sides just really need to remember that TMM's opinion isn't more important than anyone else's.
PotatoAsh That’s true. I’ve never seen anyone say that Lei was easy, or Tekken had too many characters until TMM said it. Like I understand that people may have the same opinion, and nothing against MM seriously I enjoy his content a lot, but I just find it odd that nobody was vocal about said opinion until he said it.
@@nixuniverse5240 I mean that's just how an influencer works I don't really understand why this would be odd to you lol. It's the same concept as any popular/respected person in any community giving their opinion on a subject. They would be more highly respected than some random that's only played the game for a couple years. So evidently TMM, someone who has played this series since its release and as a tekken RUclips channel with almost 100k subscribers, would have a highly valued opinion on tekken subject matters. It's not weird or odd, it's actually pretty normal...
Liam It’s odd because people should have their own opinions, regardless if a celebrity or influencer gives their own. I personally think Josie is around Mid Tier, and let’s say hypothetically that TMM said she was absolute garbage; would I instantly go around saying she’s trash now ? No, because I have my own opinion that she’s mid tier.
@@nixuniverse5240 That's the thing, people do have their own opinions but they develop these opinions multiple ways like experience, listening to a variety of perspectives, having a rational thought/discussion about said topic and those laat two things are done with the opinions of others. To say someone doesn't have their own opinion just because they agreed with someone else's doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Also, if most people develop their opinions from others then it wouldn't really be odd lol it's completely normal.
As someone who has been at Orange and Green ranks for quite awhile, I would actually argue that if there was a tier list of ez mode gimmicks, Lei would be fairly down there. Almost all his gimmicks are super transparent. I've never been killed by a Lei and left thinking "wtf just happened?" which is not the same I can say about many if now most characters in tekken. And I've found his razor rush gimmicks to be relatively easy to recognize and counter.
The reason why Kazuya is hard early is because of his pewgf learning process at the beginning but after you perfect it,kazuya becomes easier and easier But in case of lei,he is preety easy at first but after you try learning his stands,he becomes harder and harder(Kazuya is preety useless without the knowledge of ewgf and Lei is useable even if you don't learn all of his 200+ moves)
I REALLY like the mindset of judging characters by ALL skill levels. It never made sense to me why the majority of people scream that only top level matters, given that (as you said), that only affects 0.1% of players (maybe less). If a character gives you free wins at every level of play unless you're pro, then that's an easy character.
Well if he states that Lei is super hard in high level, then hes not wrong. Im actually for it so Lei can be buffed properly. Also, almost every character is a noob killer in beginner/intermediate level, so mainmans thought process of this is a bit confusing to me.
A lot of characters can do well in low ranks, but what MainMan is talking about the level of effort required to stomp those noobs. If you're playing Katarina, Lei, or Noctis, you can put in fairly little effort, and get to stomp noobs quite easily. If you're playing Heihachi, Kazuya, or Bryan, you need to put in a lot more effort into stomping those noobs. In both instances, you crush the noob, but the level of effort isn't the same.
@@genzo454 Theres not one character that doesnt have a cheap move against the newbies. His arguement has a few flaws imo. Anyone who knows enough from thier character can abuse a move that they know and beat the newbies. Its not rocket science. The game isnt that hard to understand that every character has an abusable move against new/intermediate, especially in online. Also bad connection palys a huge role here. U mentioned bryan being hard against newbies, example; snake edge is almost unseeable at 3/4 bars. Thats one thing that alot of bryans abuse online.
It baffles me how many people make the ”just counter gimmicks or just block and punish” argument when it comes to defending characters that are considered cheesy.
Just imagine TMM at a law firm (I think he is at law school or something) in the future for a job interview and getting the job for how good he articulates his points for the layman for his case and side of the story.
I think more than "pro" level viability, people just tend to call characters difficult when there's a long movelist or tricky execution. Forget Lei and Nina, I've even heard plenty of people claim that Mishimas, Steve, Hwoarang, etc are "hard" characters. It's also why Gigas generally isn't in the discussion for hardest character, and the poster boy/girl for easy characters are ones like Claudio, Shaheen, Kazumi, and Jack. While I don't fully agree with TMM, I think my thought is more or less in line with his general philosophy, Character difficulty should take into consideration minimum effectiveness requirements for getting any wins. Characters like Nina and Lei may have high ceilings but it's not difficult to just jump on and get results with them. By contrast, a character like Lee requires a bit more work since he's mostly a "honest" character that requires some execution to get any meaningful damage.
I've main'd Lei since Tekken 4. He is a hard character to learn... But easy to play (Sort of) In Low ranks all the way to high Ranks, it just doesn't seem fair. Even in "Pro" ranks people sometimes have a hard time.
Mr Bare Foot Bogan you basically just said what MainMan has pointed out how he’s an easy character to use and how in pro level, he’s hard because of the skill level. He also mentioned that Lei IS hard to learn because of his fundamentals and his great amount of mixups. So what’s the point of this comment? Js.
Not to mention, on top of everything, if you want to actually lab the damn character you have to buy him first which like myself must people haven't done and aren't willing to pay for a character they won't play
I supposed to play with Lei in Tekken 3 about 12 years ago and no one can caught me at that time. Lei is obviously a very tough character but when you become a PRO than I can bet you that the God of Tekken aka King is nothing in front of him but only if you know how to completely handle the LEI in every situation.
I mean I agree with you here TMM. Just look at tournament results Pepperbeef2Spicy beat Lil Majin in competitive and also at Combo Breaker you actually saw 2 okay Lei players do really well vs Good players at that tournament.
You made a video yourself explaining how lei is high difficulty, but high reward, now you switch after getting thrashed constantly by lei smh hypocrite
Alltimes video is here as well as his channel full with content: ruclips.net/video/dV9Ct3YOlCo/видео.html
I'm not yet finished with the video, but as a Lei player, I would like to disagree on some points regaring difficulty.
I agree about knowledge of matchup from opponent - Lei can just go through half of his Movelist and win only by that. BUT! (there's alway a "but", you know :) )
1. You need to learn that movelist yourself. That might not sound like tough thing, but trust me, you have to learn a whole graph of stance transfers and strings to use them properly. Maybe you're underastimating this because you're "legacy" player - and you played Lei before, I suppose.
2. In the intermediate level there's a Huge spike of difficulty - because lots of players on some stage learning that staying in block and backdashing as much as possible (an then launching and wiff-punishing) is more proffitable than staying near the opponent. And suddenly it becomes obvious that most of "turtle-openers" of Lei are waaaay riskier than ones of other characters. Add his slow-recovery animations that are giving opponent quite a time to react on animation finish - and you'll realize that Lei really has to be inventive to handle turtles.
3. Lost of his unsafe moves are either telegraphed, quite quickly learned even during match, in some cases, or just shouting about being unsafe on block.
4.He's pressure is quite often can be cut just by single jab/df1 or fast low kick. Which means that in a lot of cases you don't need to really know the matchup - just poke here and there and do not allow Lei to force his own game tempo.
Still, I agree that Lei is quite strong and can be pain in the butt even on pro-level. Overall, that's a fair reward to take complex, difficult-to-learn and rare used character (almost same as playing unexpected Low-tiers in finals). You want to play Kazuya and have strong tools? Ok, no problem - but be ready that every first contestant will know how to dodge, punish and counter your every move? You're willing to spend days and weeks in Lab before even trying to play online with your character, just to learn all his movelist and basic setups? You get a reward of being mysterious. Quite fair. Aren't you agree?
And regarding good Lei players... Well, yeah, that's exactly why he's underused. You need to learn and refresh every fight in your memory HUUUUUGE amount of information to play him well. But why do you need this when you has All-Stars-All-Good Jin, free 50/50/50/50/50 throws of King or something even worse like Season 1 Dragunov? Hell, even Kazuya is much simpler - you need to have great execution, yes. But that comes with a practice. And after practice you just have to use one of several well-designed attack/defence patterns and folow through with them (like Debuts in chess). While playing Lei is more like playing poker - but with chess, dices and mandatory flute-piano playing :)
Yet again, I'm not trying to say that Lei isn't strong. But It's a character for life to learn and has some significant downsides as well. If you're looking into bigger picture - please, do not turn down downsides (no pun intended) in your reviews as well.
Like, for me playing Lei on the first 60-70% of time was both fun and painfull hell at the same time.
18:09 "You can't have your cake and eat it at the same time". Except if you're Jin :) Then you can eat cake, steak, drink glass of Martini and go to bedroom with your opponent's wife :)
22:45 - yessss, exactly what I mentioned previously - at some point lots of people start to turtling against unknown characters.
And poor range does not help to deal with it eaither.
Ohhhh... and the Ending. Comparing Lei and Noctis :) 2 moves for Noctis VS 100+ moves to learn with Lei.....
Notice how the Lei player is much more respectable than the Nina player.
Because they're classy
Some Nina mains are scary af in person. No joke.
Thank you
@@MrNinjafreak I've heard them get pissed and scream on their mics online. Obviously not every single Nina player is like this, but a big percentage of them are.
@@cartoonworld1000
It's very true my friend ^^
See this guy can make an decent argument but that guy who defended nina is a stoner
you look like a stoner with that grammar too.
Y'all stoners
Stones
I'm smarter then you and I smoke weed.
@@robertonegron776 using "then" in that sentence confirms that you're not really that smart
This guy can't possibly be as insane as that last guy who was defending Nina
"It'd be weird for a character to have good offense, punishment and mixup potential, you can't have your cake and eat it"
*Glances at Jin and Devil Jin*
devil jin has massive stepping issues with SSL duck making 95% of his moves useless
Wheres jins mixups?
D4 is the best
And db4 is really good but it takes forever to startup and doesn't crush
Same for hellsweep
Jin's a bit confusing on the person using him though, in my opinon Devil Jin is a better choice because even low knowledge of the character gets you places, with Jin you need to know a lot more it seems.
But yes overall, in terms of...Well everything behind the hands of a good player, these two just have it good in every area.
@@TeamSESH_Bones Every Mishima has that, thats why they have wavedash to realign where the opponent moves to, doesnt change the fact DJ is busted
@@TeamSESH_Bones *Laughs in Laser Scraper and wave dash*
Apperently, the new trend is “my character it's hard, not easy or viceversa”...
I know everyone has their opinions, but, for me, this argument is starting become really stupid.
On god I'm sick of being put down because I play asuka but respected when I pull out jin or kaz
@@hollowwraith4513 well, I use Chloe and Eliza.
Everytime someone say something to me, I ignore them or I respond to them.
And I don't switch character, why should I do it?
Hollowwraith451 don’t care about others opinions man. If you win a match or your opponent doesn’t know how to deal with something the match is over before it even started, it’s their job to adapt or get rekt
i play steve, people say he's hard but he's an easy character to me
@@furious_malic7808 thanks man😁
Next is going to be “MAINMAN IS WRONG ABOUT GIGAS! HE’S VERY HIGH TIER AND NEEDS TO BE NERFED AGAIN”
But... do you see a single person use gigas and won the tournament or even in the best 8?
you only need 10 minutes to lab gigas, and you will know everything about how to deal Gigas, and imagine Gigas players has to use stuff that every character knows how to punish... and its very easy at that.
I was being sarcastic lol
Ik Gigas is a very low tier character. He needs a very good overall buff. As TMM previously stated. Calm down guys. I meant for that comment to be a joke lol.
@@kingxdatruth0998 naw i know its a joke, im just adding some info in case anybody comes by.. cheers dude
Eh, I understand both sides, and am a long time user of Lei myself. It's both hard to counter 200 moves, but it takes crazy amounts of dedication to learn, place and properly use Leis 200 moves. Which is WHY no one is playing him lol hes hard to learn, and us definitely a character you MUST put tins of time into to use effectively. In the other hand, if the time is put in, THEN yes his moveset becomes a big problem. Very complicated character to use AND defend against. So to me, hes right down the middle and is average when you take into account offense, defense, beginning, intermediate, high level and pro levels all together. Those 200 moves also have to be learned to be used against the entire cast offensively. Lei is only easy once learned. Hes not a character you're just going to pick up and destroy everyone with. Katarina, Noctis, yeah they can do it easily in early stages, but as stated in multiple videos, in higher levels, those characters effectiveness goes down. Its difficult to play with fundamentals either Lei and you damn near have to rely and hope your opponent either doesn't know or just guesses wrong with his mixups. If Lei was that simple, we'd see more of him for sure. He takes more work than most are willing to put in. I think B tier is correct indeed.
Shondarian Nelson this man has arguably the best offense in the game, all he has is mix. that’s why his other shit is ass. you got 100 launching mids paired w the same amount of lows. thank god his shit is unsafe
@@sungodd- I see you've mastered the art of spitting shit through your nose.
I think main man's right, just on the fact that it's inherently harder to defend than to attack, so all the time that you put into your character main as a lei player, means you're putting an uneven brunt of lei's complexity onto your opponent and with his low usage it's harder for people to deal with since they don't know the match up, BUT it's still very hard to come up with good mix up that's useful, it takes a lot of knowledge and creativity, you can't just spam your way with lei, you have to know precise transition points, have good timing, his magic 4's require serious execution, a lot of his staple combos require serious execution, and you combine that with poor frames, even noobs can whiff punish and punish things on block instinctively knowing nothing from a technical standpoint about frame data, so the creativity required from lei plus his shit frames etc. balance things out a little more than mainman gives credit for I think. but over all i think he's right about it being harder for the opponent in the end but not as right as he thinks he is about the character being easy over all.
@@stevenburton4966 I mean with Lei, because he doesn't have any plus frames on block unlike certain characters you just have to constantly disrespect him with dickjabs and you'll be mostly safe.
@@Nutt_lemmings lol, i spam dickjabs using lei against others such as hwoarang.
Ok. All of these people are fool of themselves. I play Hwoarang and he is super cheap in beginner and intermediate. The hard part of his is that in high level ranks people realize that Hwoarang can't guard in flamingo at all. So when you see people bouncing around on one leg like they have pro status, understand that us Hwoarang players are just acting like d-bags. Hwoarang is super unsafe, and much like Kazuya, needs space to do anything. This is apart of why there is the lore of Hwo and Steve. Steve is pressure in your face, Hwo is high pressure with spacing.
And more/most importantly, Hwoarang's stances DO NOT crush anything. Lei literally lays flat on the fucking floor, or dances around the entire map just by going into stance.
De Bernard thank you my howranang brother
At beginner level as a hwo I agree but I feel he becomes difficult at intermediate but that just from personal experience.
Lei can crush certain mids, hwo cant crush at all
dont forget the launching power crush move
@@xGenyox AND the power crush state during stance
2:16
I think you should listen to what he said more closely, TMM.
He didn't say: " *if you don't know* how to counter most of his gimmicks you will lose"
He said: "if you don't know how to counter razor rush, but instead *you know* how to counter most of his gimmicks, you will lose"
Thanks for correcting here, any mistakes main man makes will only strengthen his oppositions arguments.
Oh noooo, he said gimmicks and not Razor Rush, Mainman must be wrong!
@@Tongue.Tornado L for misunderstanding
@@Tongue.Tornado Must he? Your call. I don't think mainman is wrong. I think he misheard or misinterpreted the video he was critiquing.
@@Tongue.Tornado but his mais argument is that it's better to know how to counter one move instead of focusing on the various strings that Lei has. That diminishes the lab-character argument (even though he contradicts himself later while talking about Lei's strengths)
Next Episode - Bryan main thinks snake edge is an unblockable !
taunt snake edge
Probably the same kind of people who play Law for the most part.
Oakaoakaoka
Taunt snake 3 bar unblockable gdi
its not?? lol jokes of course its not
Everyone tends to mix the opinion of character difficulties between Noob and Pro player. TMM try to separate it and say that these gimmick character is easy "at the beginner to intermediate" but hard "at pro". But everyone who debate with him try to mix these thing up and say "I dont care about Beginner to intermediate, I will talk about Pro only, and you said that he is easy(at beginner to intermediate) so you are wrong"
You guys dont even debate on the same term, WTF man. It's started to get boring.
Facts
exactlyyyy
yeah but he says that his own main is really super hard too so i can't take these "critique" videos of people defending their mains seriously lol
Shinku Quickman he says his main is “harder at beginner but easy at pro” to be specific
i agree to most of tmm's opinion but i don't really get what he means when he said kazuya is hard on beginner and intermediate.. in previous videos he always says that kazuya in the beginner to intermediate can get away with lots of hellsweeps because player at that level rarely ducks or try to predict it or even stepping to the left.. doesn't that makes kazuya easy on beginner and intermediate, and gets harder later on high and pro? or is he talking about execution? bcs kazuya really rely on the basics of tekken such as movements, punish and the oki.. and that needs time to learn, but then i don't think he's talking about the same thing he talks about with lei.. me very much confusion
easy or hard i dont really care.
i dont main lei, but i play him quite often. it's really a shame that he has such a low playrate.
because in my opinion he is easily on of the most interresting characters ever, and he has so much potential.
im incredibly grateful that he was eventually added to the game, and im just completely in love with how he turned out for tekken 7.
but i fear that he wont be in the next tekken game, and that would really be a shame.
Janne-K dude no...
Given how much people complained, even AFTER he was added into the game, Harada confirmed that he's never going to do shit like that again for characters that wind up not being in future Tekken games. It also doesn't help the fact that all the complainers stayed quiet as fuck when their mains returned, thus the low play rates. It's sad, really.
Janne-K ya know maybe If lei players did cool stuff I would be interested in playing him but the only leis I see online are the cheesy spammers which ruin his image. Maybe if we could have someone get him to the next level I would be convinced but for now he’s just gonna stay where he’s at
Im getting serious with Tekken 7 now, and Lei is my character of choice.
I fucking love his playstyle. I love the wide range of moves. It IS, however, quite intimidating when I hear how people always tell me how "trash" he is or how he can never perform well in higher tier play. That and I keep hearing:
A) He can't punish shit at all. Or if you can, its pretty pathetic.
B) Unsafe moves? Like a ton of them? If not all?
But I refuse to let it stop me. I don't care if he's not "perfect" or "top tier". To hell with it. Lei is awesome, and he feels so unique. I love his personality and I feel he's the character for me, who thrive on being unpredictable and a bit of a "wild card" when it comes to fighting games. I'm sure the journey to master him will be... Ruthless and absolutely rough, but what isn't?
Can't wait for my new fightstick to arrive on friday.
@@l0lhei541 how did the journey turn out?
I really like how Mainman's thumbnail seems like he is just a massive clickbait troll enjoying "the salt", but actually puts in the time and effort to be open minded and concise enough about his opinion and actually stir good debate/conversation about the game overall.
So refreshing to watch this unlike the nina video, that was just a clusterfuck of arguments and flame, much like her strings lol.
I can see that you care a lot about Tekken. You want everyone to get the most out of it and you're actually taking their skill level into consideration. I appreciate you. Thanks MAIINMANNNN
3th
Actually hes doing the opposite, hes bringing attention to these "cheesy" chars and encouring players to badmouth other players who play certain chars, in high rank no one rly gives a shit what u play but in beginner/intermediate this is gonna become an issue
@@BoONeo No, what you've said is incorrect. TMM has said on multiple occasions to play whichever character you enjoy playing.
The people bringing attention to these "cheesy" characters are the butt hurt players who complain about the TMM's argument, without actually listening to his argument first. They just like all the attention they're getting.
@@BoONeo I agree. Tekken is just a game some people take it too seriously with all this character bullshit. It's stupid. Just play the game to play. Like damn
i know nothing of tekken, but i really like how respectfull u engage in a discussion. props to u as a person!!!
when he makes videos by himself, or responds to those whose arguments are dead wrong, TMM ridicules people/characters. in this video, because alltimes was nice to TMM in his response, and even gave many arguments in support of TMM, TMM reciprocated his manners and professionalism and didn't ridicule this time. unfortunately, because alltimes was so nice to give points to TMM, TMM misinterpreted most of those points as "evidence" and most of this video was responding to incomplete points. but if alltimes was more direct, TMM might have trash talked, so this may be for the best.
@@Viewer13128 Didn't "trash talk" (whatever that's supposed to mean) that Nina player, that Jin player, or that Akuma player, even though they all had a pretty hostile attitude from the beginning. What are you even talking about?
Actually he has 13 stances:
Snake
Dragon
Crane
Panther
Tiger
Phoenix
Drunken boxing
Backturn
Face up, feet towards
Face up, feet away
Face down, feet towards
Face down, feet away
And Crouching snake is a mini stance (db+1 to enter it) which you can get a decent mixup out of, so I think it counts.
Lei is not a hard character. I play him when I want to play Tekken at 4am after a long days work when I want to chill and get easy wins with zero stress. Otherwise, I main mostly kazuya, Im passionate about heihachi and devil Jin, and mess around with Armor king and Jin. Lei is my “I don’t give a shit, let’s just have some fun” character. He’s in low violet ranks on ps4 right now.
Due to what I've been seeing on PS4 lately I'm gonna wait until I have money, buy the Noctis DLC and that's it, I'm sick of trying to use skill in this game because nobody else does.
I'm looking at you Alissa mains...
@@DreamerFromTheDepths yo im not trying to tell you to enter the world of scrub but *cough *cough* snake edge
Family Of Catbugs I have been using Noctis since last June. 6000 plus wins in Quick Match. You will not regret it. When I run into other cheese characters with Noctis, he destroys. Tons of no rematch and disconnects. You might even love it.
backturn isnt really a stance
yikes, incoming new noctis main
Great analysis, you have discussed this many times before but some people just don't get it. I agree with your philosophy centered on the vast majority as opposed to the relative few who "master" the matchup.
Next Up
"Lucky Chloe RUclipsr Responds"
Oh god
She's one of the hardest
Tune in next week for my video about why Gigas is the best character in the game loll
Jackpot Fights trololol
Everyone wants to be recognized for his "super hard character choice"
Tekken-Basuka93 “I’d be pro if I wasn’t a Nina main”
meanwhile paul mains be like "hehe guy hits hard ooga booga"
They want the best of both worlds. They want to pick an easy character and have everyone applaud them for playing such a difficult character. TMM is just putting people in their place lol.
@@abyzzwarrior3305 yeah that’s not inaccurate.
@@chillskid Doesn't mainman play a relatively easy character? electrics are easy, mixups are easy. he has solid moves and a power-crush that provides great mixups. he's nothing compared to the gameplan you need to create when it comes to unorthodox characters.
I really wanted Lei and I play him. Thank you Harada
Just here to say who cares about usage data of a character, someone as iconic and unique as Lei should never be removed from the game
Why? So you can look at his thumbnail on the character select screen?
i love these argumenative videos. you get the view of both perspectives and it is mostly adult and friendly in the end.
This guy was better than the Nina player and put his points forward in such a way that TheMainMan could elevate the entire discussion.
TMM has the defining point and argument with his insistence on examining the entire arc of Tekken character skill and difficulty. This allows us to get a picture of the entire Tekken experience for each character. Excellent analysis from tmm.
2:03 ohh look! a wild DF+2~PEWGF appeared xDDDDDD
I nutted
You misunderstood/misheard what he said at 2:00. He said that if you don't know how to counter razorrush, but you DO know how to counter most of his gimmicks you will lose. So he basically said that hitting the lab on razorrush is the thing that actually matters.
Ok, now I'm waiting for a Katarina main complaints. At least, TMM have something more to upload. 😁
Lei is a character that should be in every Tekken game. He's iconic, he was my main, and the only reason I'm not playing him is because he's locked behind a paywall
Coming from my friend, who has played Lei for many years, says that it is near impossible to master this character. Every Lei plays him differently, which is what makes Lei even more scary. There are definitely more Lei’s that are starting to show themselves, and this character is extremely fun to watch.
goes with any character lol
What I don't actually get is why you would put Lei in bottom tier of difficulty, and Ling slightly above him. Even if we assume for the moment that all stance based characters are easy, Ling is almost universally agreed to be the easiest one of the lot. Not to mention AoP alone is enough to destroy people at lower rankings.
well, TMM was biased as F against lei, and in this video, he simply avoided addressing this, since alltimes made a respectful/professional video, so TMM can't spew his bias in this response video. give TMM some time and (hopefully not) he will trash talk lei for no reason again.
@@Viewer13128 it's for the luls calm down bud and reeeelax
@@Viewer13128 bbbbbbbbbbut muh character is hard take back those mean words tmm
@@shad0wmech being mean is his choice, which i am fine with, because it can be a youtube persona. i'm only commenting on his faulty logic and bias, leading to misinformation. It's not just about 1 character. a lot of the time, TMM will say something that is merely theory (or his personal philosophy), but use it as fact (very smoothly), and then use that non-fact as the core basis for any point he goes on to make.
he then constructs his argument logically, which anyone unfamiliar with research methods would see as highly valid. then rather than saying that it is his opinion/theory/philosophy, he says his final conclusion is therefore the truth/reality.
*basically, the simple definition is indoctrination...* the irony is that he might actually not realize this since he might not be educated in the concept of "validity", which is even more painful to watch as he gets emotionally invested on top of everything.
TMM does this with players, characters, tier lists, to play styles. ofc, sometimes, he only does it because he needs new content.
so again, i'm fine if his youtube personality is mean/nice/etc. if it gets him views. I'm only critiquing his information.
i'm fine if he says it's his opinion *and that others' opinions may be right,* but TMM doesn't do that. he either:
(1) uses his theory, but masks it as fact, and then states his opinion as fact, or
(2) admits it's his opinion, and then denies/trashes any other opinion/argument (which technically is no different than saying his opinion is fact), or
(3) sarcastically says that others can be right while letting you know he doesn't mean it (which again is not different than saying that his opinion is the truth).
in fact, whenever he admits something as his opinion and then goes on to reject other opinions, his statement is by default logically incompatible, yet he continues to build his point in a logical way... possibly without realizing what he is doing. and he usually honestly believes that opposing views are stupid, and actually thinks he is educating them, and then starts cracking jokes/insults.
so again, i'm not critiquing his youtube personality, i'm critiquing his poor methodology and information, which he spreads *very persuasively.*
@@Viewer13128 You say that its his opinion, and he says its his opinion many many many many many times he says this. And you're complaining that he says his opinion and...believes it? and says it like he believes it? isn't that the idea? When someone has an opinion that they want to spread shouldn't they believe it over other peoples. And he does agree with the lei player that lei is hard to play, at late high and top level. thats his opinion, you can disagree with him but he doesn't ever claim something as fact unless it actually is. He repeatedly says that he "Thinks" not he "knows" his opinion is right. You just seem to be someone who dislikes the creator and therefore dislikes his opinion and dislikes the way he presents it. If it offends you how he argues so much, then don't watch the videos, or just watch the video disagree and move on. (And also you have to remember he argues similar to how a lawyer would, because he is in law school, Thats why you think he is putting of what he is saying as fact instead of what he thinks)
I dont even play much Tekken but I just love watching your videos because you care so deeply about Tekken and your passion variety of videos and overall personality just keeps me watching
This was actually a pretty good watch, the Lei main actually was pretty respectable and informative, and so were you MainMan, which made this a really interesting discussion video. Always glad to see people can be chill AF when debating about Tekken
Totally true. I used to play it during a lot of years in Tekken 3, Tag tournament, T4, etc .. in arcade machines, so I bought as separated DLC in Tekken 7 for steam PC and, of course, is harder to use than ever. I mean, combos needs specific timing between buttons and movements don't flush as easy as it was in the past. PD: Playing with Lei is like practizing Choy Li Fut; it requires to memorize a very, larger lot of movements correctly, so you only need to fail in one of them while chaining it, and then, you probably lose.
I do not think that the Lei's main weapon is RAZOR RUSH, there is a lot of movies and you can use it in variety time and combination.
Thanks for the clear explanation behind that opinion. It's a combination of having a lot of tools(good or bad) and the under usage that makes him 'easy' to play.
Btw, nice touch mentioning Ranca and Tetsuo. Those guys are legends and can even give Knee's t5dr Bryan a run for his money.
Well, I always found Lei harder than any other character. Not because of execution but because in order to make him effective you need to remember and mix a million things. I always found Mishima's easier cause execution is easier for me than remembering a million strings, stances and combinations. Which is why I believe no one plays Lei. It's such a chore to become competent to utilise his confusing offence.
My "x" character is super hard at the highest level.. this kind of reasoning is so stupid.
how so?
It’s actually good reasoning. Just because Joe Smoe can’t block Bryan’s snake edge in green or yellow rank, doesn’t mean he’s easy character to use.
@@TheBlackBossalini305 you're right, it does make him easy to use at those ranks though, which is the point he is saying but people like yourself are ignoring.
@@TheBlackBossalini305 yeah I can see how every character can be easy in lower ranks. But some of them you have to actually know for that to be the case. As you mentioned obviously Lee, but for most Mishimas you need to have some decent degree of execution to make them "easy" down there. And I would say characters with strong keepout and defense are much easier down there than other characters. Like Bryan is what I climbed out of lower ranks with, 3+4 orbital were all I needed because people never stop pushing buttons and running in. So I can see where you're coming from.
shadowmech You can literally get out of green ranks with the hellsweep and ff3 mix up alone, they don’t block low or side step there lol.
I really respect how you confront criticism head-on. It is quite profound to me and I think your game knowledge supersedes Tekken.
Next Vid:
AliSa Is NoT gaRbagE
@AAKS They're why I stopped playing the game, so sick of seeing Alisa's for maybe 20 matches in the row, I see a Kazuya after that I beat him in the first two matches, he quits and then another 50 matches against Alisa, so boring...
Sometimes Nina's and Asuka's show up too, anyone else is a God send except Bob.
@@DreamerFromTheDepths I'm pretty sure there are some good Alissa players out there, I guess it's just been your luck that you ran into the scrubby ones lol.
I'm like the opposite of you, I've never run into an Alissa yet online.
Family Of Catbugs it’s the opposite for me, I fight 50 Kazuyas, 10 kings and the odd Alisa. Fucking tired of fighting Kazuyas
11:04 You don't know what it is supposed to mean?? lol He was abundantly clear. The argument that he wanted to counter is that Lei is difficult because he has many moves, does not show up often and is a lab character (people have to get ready for 200 moves blah blah blah..). In his example, he used Lei's razor rush a lot to ILLUSTRATE the notion that you don't need to know how to exactly counter ALL OF HIS MOVES.....just the most important ones.
He probably should have shown footage of someone who knew how to counter razor rush though. The fact that this was a fairly good opponent who still couldn't handle it kinda supports the idea that Lei isn't that hard to play.
@@Regdren The problem with your comment is that TMM never claimed that Lei is easy to use because of his fucking razor rush and how hard it is to counter. His claim is predicated around the notion that Lei has so much weird shit, that you have to lab him a lot (even mentioned the silly 200 number a lot)......which was the notion the guy was addressing in the first place..
I've been playing Tekken casually for most of my life, starting from Tekken 1 in the arcades in 1994. I basically only began taking it seriously since Tag Tournament 2. Unfortunately I took a bit of a break, and only recently started trying to get into Tekken 7 seriously. Unfortunately, I've found myself struggling against people who have been playing seriously for YEARS, with the result being frustration, especially mastering characters like this (in my case, King), because, Tekken is NOT an easy game to get into, especially when you haven't been playing it hardcore for at least a decade or two. Add to the fact you ALSO have to learn how your character(s) matches up with OTHER characters, lol, well, yeah....
This is the Lei analysis that should have been, fair and balanced.
Thank you.
So is the new trend to be triggered if TMM doesn't think your character is hard?
So far, Nina mains have been off one, and now Lei's? Are Alisa players gonna fly into the fray next?
Find out next time on DifficultBall T!
Lol Alisa players are chatting complete shit in the chat
Nah people are just tired of him putting down characters that aren't mishimas Lee Steve or hwoarang. Yes it is his opinion but he acts as a voice for lower level players and it's not necessarily helpful if he's bad mouthing a lot of characters (he talks really bad about asuka xiaoyu capos and the females)
Eh, fair point. I do feel it would be a bit different if he was sorta wrong, you know? Cause so far (from what I've seen of course, there's probably plenty examples to the contrary), it isn't unwarranted piss taking-- some of the stuff has some weight I'd reckon.
As far as being a voice for low levels, I don't mind it too much. You got the tutorial channels like Blasted Salami, Aris' giant ass Beginner-Intermediate playlist, and hell; even Tendo and Arsenalty for guides and shit but you really don't see the "Here's the distinction between new guys and gods. These characters operate differently in relation". It's a good flip of content if you ask me.
@@JT-km6th alisa players are mainly 9 years old or dudes who live in parents basement without a job. Everything about alisa is discusting
@@hollowwraith4513 He's mentioned before that his opinion shouldn't be taken heavily. He hates Alissa but he even said if you enjoy and like Alissa then play her and don't give a shit about TMM's opinion.
As Anna player I know a good way to deal with Lei. Just press him to death and don't allow to use his moves, overwhelm him with Anna's tornado of pressure, use CJ to launch him every time when this cheesy cop tries to do low hit. Suddenly Lei players don't want to play against character with 200 moves, strings, stances, chain-throws, parries, auto counter hits, mixups and super-fast rage art.
Yeah, I find Anna to be a very good matchup against Lei. I enjoy playing her against him.
Couldn't even focus on the narration because I was so happy hearing Lei's old voice, didnt know I missed it that much
1 Year, 500 complaints and 250 Videos later and there will still be someone claiming that "insert character of your choice" is harder than its actually the case. Not that im complaining, i enjoy these kinds of respond videos. Also #NINAISEASY
I think alltimes is trying to say that you shouldn't "defend" against Lei but always try to interrupt/counter attack him. Down-jab and Hopkick him out of his stance. If he is in his stance, why not attack him??? Why would you take the mixup if you know very well that Lei has a crazy strong mixup but bad frames?
So yeah, dont try to lab and learn him, try to throw out more hopkicks/dikkjabs :P
Alltimezzz made a video on how to counter Lei when he was first released. He wants people to know how to beat Lei. But in Tekken 7 sure he has gimmicks but you still have to work for a win against low ranks because they are full aggro and dick jab/hop kick everything.
To characters that have a strong mixup with bad punishment, if they want to they can just force a mixup instead of a punishing the opponent properly, which is still very good than getting nothing
I agree with this to a certain extent but I don't think there is any talk about how difficult it is to learn this huge bag of tricks and how it all works. You are talking about the huge responsibility it puts on the opponent to know your character, but the Lei player himself has to go through this same struggle when learning how to play Lei.
if we are taking everything into account and being as detailed as possible surely we have to acknowledge that he must have a different difficulty curve than Noctis, because if you let two absolute beginners fight with those two characters the Noctis is going to win. Just remembering a small portion of his possibilities is hard for the Lei player.
for that reason I would say Lei has more of a bell curve in terms of difficulty, because despite being hard to fight I can't imagine he's the sort of character you'd recommend an absolute beginner start out with. In Dan ranks there's plenty of characters easier to get a win with. So I think he starts out as difficult, then gets easier as the knowledge gap widens between you and the opponent along with offense being easier than defense. Then from pro up he starts to get difficult when the knowledge gap shrinks back down.
Yeah, nothing wrong with the theory that you want to rank differently for different tiers.. But lei isn't easy to play at all in beginner.. You talk about how much responsibility it puts on your opponent because of his huge varied move list.. Except when you are beginner, you aren't labbing out your opponents, you are learning to play your own, so that responsibility is on the player. Actually I still won't lab out my opponents because I don't want my video games to be a chore, but almost no one is doing this at beginner. The easy chars at beginner are the characters that have powerful spam moves that are super easy to pull off. At beginner though, you have hellsweep, it doesn't get you far, but I think that alone puts Lei in medium instead of hard at the beginning. Intermediate I think Lei is also hard to play. I'm not sure if people will "lab out" lei or not, but it doesn't so much matter when you are playing many matches in a row with the same opponent. You need to try to constantly be changing your gameplay. With lei, something only works if it catches the opponent off guard and you need to be unpredictable all the time. You need to be trying to get into your opponents head and changing constantly so they never catch on to what you are doing, if you start to repeat yourself you are toast, which is very tough to pull off in my opinion, and what makes him so fun to play... I find playing with xiaoyu means I need to think a lot less. Then again, maybe I just suck at him. I'm pretty sure one of the big reasons no one plays him is because he's so damn hard to learn
But you gotta remember that it’s harder to learn how to counter a move than it is to use it. Sure, you can learn all 200 moves if you want which would be really difficult but do you, as a lei player, really need to do that? No one plays this guy, he has 200 moves, like 13 stances, no one knows how to fight him, all of which makes it considerably easier to play him.
Realistically, would you learn the matchup of a character no one plays? One with 13 stances, learning how to punish each of them just to never use that knowledge because no one wants to to touch him?
Peppy2spice eliminated CBM off of Combo Breaker 2019.
you could tell cbm would win if it wasn't a FT2 though. and cbm used fundamentals more than character knowledge and cbm was still more dominant.
This is just my opinion as someone who only got into tekken with 7 and picked up lei as soon as he was released as he seemed interesting and fun.firstly i agree that lei has an advantage due to his extensive move list and one of the things i like is his options (i'm a hwoarang player as well for the same reason) but something i feel hasn't been really discussed is how hard he is to learn in the first place just to use there are a lot of stance transitions to know when to use for what reason and being aware where you are in his move list and which stance you're in and where you want to be and the best path to get there. and i find the moment i lose concentration or my mind goes blank for a second he falls apart really quickly. while i'm not going to argue that he's an incredibly difficult character i feel the points i have made offset the difficulty in defending against him somewhat and would say in my opinion he would be average difficulty. sorry for the long comment just wanted to give my opinion as best as i could
@4:45
''And the identity of the triggerman(Lei)....is a mystery(His difficulty).''
-TheMainBaneManSWE
Something is wrong here.... if Lei is so f****** easy to use why there is so little people to play the character?? If TMM's phylosophy was true there should be a bunch of Lei's cheeseing online...
In my opinion TMM's trolling on Lei and some other characters (also TMM's "Difficulty Tierlist") is based only about him experiencing difficulties in defending against those characters...
For example I find Steve or Lee hard to defend against - it is my subjective opinion... and so is yours MR TMM about Lei ;P
Because there are characters that also are really easy to play (ex: Katarina, Noctis, etc) that more people find more compelling, either for their personality, playstyle, specific moves, or just familiarity with the character (ex: Fatal Fury/KOF players playing Geese when they move over to Tekken). Also, at 3:40, MainMan talks about Lei's play rate in previous games being low, so it is safe to say that Lei just doesn't appeal to many Tekken players, at least gameplay wise. And since his cheese isn't strong enough to make him a Jin/DJ, people looking for easy wins look to other characters.
Not going to lie, I'm loving the discussions the Tekken community are having because of TMM's tier lists. So much more information is just getting distributed now. Hope it continues!
I really love playing Lei, but honestly he is pretty easy. If he wasn’t I wouldn’t be able to play him because I’m a green rank dweller, and T7 is my first fighting game.
His execution is piss easy, he has a bunch of 60+ combos that take zero execution, and things like his uf3+4 into bt d1 blow people up in lower ranks.
I honestly only use like 6 different mix ups consistently because I’m dumb and thats all I can handle for now.
Lei even has a great oki vortex that works surprisingly consistently with the db4 or ff3 mix up.
Lei is awesome, complex, confusing, weird, and easy and that is why I love him.
Execution isn't everything, you're going to get to a point where you face better players than you and then its gonna be about how are you even going to land a combo on this guy or get any kind of damage in, that's where lei becomes harder to use
@@razorscootervs.ankles8152 Oh yeah that's what main man is saying, and I agree. Lei is easy in low ranks, and I can understand how he's not as powerful when I fight good players that can deal with his nonsense.
@@machinejuice5965 I think people feel like he's saying "lei is one of the easiest characters to use" which he kind of gives off that feeling but he's just saying generally he's easy to pick up in play but not among the easiest which is true. Other people are inadvertently arguing he's one of the hardest to master which I can definitely agree with but that's not the argument here. I disagree with his whole "you need to lab this character to do well against him" argument because it just isn't true with lei, he's very vulnerable and risky compared to xiaoyu the s tier cheese monster, and can easily be interrupted and blown up
@@razorscootervs.ankles8152 Totally. I play Ling as well actually and she is easier in a lot of ways. Lei is definitely a riskier character. He's not the easiest lab character, but I feel he still is one. at least in lower ranks were fundamentals are utilized very well. He's just confusing to fight, and I'm getting a lot of mileage out of that. Once I keep progressing and getting better I'm sure Lei will be hard when I have to actually remember of all his stances and mix ups and his weirdo rage drives.
@@machinejuice5965 confusing is his specialty, smoke and mirrors
You forgot to tackle how Kazumi is harder than Lei which is also the point why alltimes made that argument
kazumi is not harder than lei no way
I'm obviously not MainMan, but I think the idea is that Lei can sort of cheese his way through the lower ranks, while Kazumi doesn't have the insanely confusing pressure to deal with. She's a lot more centered around fundamentals.
Kazumi is easy
I agree with the idea of viewing competative balance from the perspective of where most of the player base actually is. Personally I think Lei is very hard to win with at beginner level because everyone is just running their offense. The 50/50 game is less effective against people less concerned with defense.
I think that's where a lot of the push back on this take is coming from. It's a struggle to get Lei past Green ranks.
He gets stronger at intermediate imo. I can't speak to high or pro.
I was honestly worried when this showed up. But I'm glad to see the way this was approached. This whole topic of characters difficulty is something I'm not a fan of. After one of TMM's videos about Lei, I've actually been told that I play a "pay to win" character, since he is DLC.. It's too bad that's the kind of behaviour that comes out of this.
@Michael Lei isn’t a “pay to win” character. That would be Noctis since he is the easiest character in the game, but when you hit high/pro level it gets difficult.
If people don't realize that this game is designed to work at two levels (beginner to intermediate, and casuals vs. high level and competition), and that you will ALWAYS have two sets of character gameplay experiences for players, then they need to stop making op eds that show them to be ignorant like this. TMM is one of the few T ekken vets that acknowledges this, which indicates that he knows what he is talking about. I get real sick of these other goons that are solipsistic A.F., and like a true narcissist, thinks that the way THEY experience the game, is the only way it can be experienced. 99% of people play at beginner to post-intermediate ranks, and what TMM is saying is addressed to this group. Tekken is not just the 1% pro player scene.
A lot of people are sitting at a rank plateau at yellows or reds, wondering what the hell is going on - what is going on is that you are moving from one type of play (beginner\intermediate) to another type (post-intermediate\high) not understanding that you probably need to revisit your entire playing style and fundamentals skill level.
Everybody seems to want to jump on TheMainManSWE, but they always end up looking incorrect, immature, or self-centered.
To be honest, I couldn't use Lei until T7 and it was because of his move list. I just didn't know what to do, until I could see the input for the sample combos and grew from that. Would've used him before and helped those usage stats. Yoshi is another one of the characters but now he's my main. Wow. Up until TTT2, I was probably stuck in green ranks. Or never made it past warrior. And I'd been playing since T3. Super casually.
Even at beginner level I wouldn't say lei is a beginner friendly character, he isn't the hardest thing ever for beginners but there's a lot more thinking involved when using him. The different between lei and characters like kazuya is that kazuya is hard to execute with overall and that's what makes him hard to use after beginner level, where as lei is a character you have to do a lot of thinking with to get your results. The "he's hard to defend against" argument isn't a good one considering most characters can out pressure him
He is especially beginner friendly because his strings are not hard to do, and seem very random to those who aren't familiar to the character with a weird mix of high lows, 2-3 hit strings, sitting on the floor etc. I don't know if you really play ranked but in reality characters like him with unorthodox movements/style along with his gimmicks are an easy way to crush beginner to intermediate level players.
@@Jonathan-cz4ky I do play ranked an I use lei too, whether they know the match up or not lei is easily counter by characters with better and easier to access tools or just overall good pressure. When I think of beginner friendly characters I look at characters with simple move sets with low risk high reward moves, lei isn't one of those. Sure you can cheese a few people with db44 and razor rush all day but even in lower ranks it isn't going to last long, much less effective compared to characters like lili, katarina or kazumi. As a beginner, they're going to hit a point where they're asking themselves "how do I get more out of this character or how do I improve?" His execution is easy but taking in information to use this character as a beginner is going to throw them off
@@razorscootervs.ankles8152 Point is that in comparison to most other characters, in beginner to intermediate ranks lei is not seen as much, therefore character knowledge is lacking. Because of this, and the fact that spamming his strings are not hard to do, he would be considered an easier character than most at these ranks. You're still thinking higher level play when you talk about other characters having "better and easier access to overall tools or just overall pressure". In high level play this would be true because they know how to punish and use their move set, frame advantage, proper movement etc. This is not the case in beginner to intermediate. Steve has amazing pressure in his move list and his b1 as punish/counter launcher, and yet this doesnt matter when lei is hitting you with strings you have no idea how to punish properly, nor know how to properly space yourself. What's considered better tools and great pressure is completely different in beginner/intermediate ranks. That's why Green rank Bryans get away with snake edge.
@@Jonathan-cz4ky I wasn't even thinking only about high level play when I said the easier to access and overall better tools, I was speaking as someone who's gone against Paul's, lilis, kazumis, and Steve's and gotten eaten alive with counterhits or just out pressured at times. Leis strings don't natter when you're getting hit with Steve's faster and counter hit heavy strings. Leis strings aren't even the most confusing thing about him honestly other than razor rush. Thing is in lower level play players tend to throw out more moves way more often, and I'm basically saying that a lot of the characters that other people use have more and better/abusable options when it comes to throwing out panic moves and it'll often beat leis options because of his weakness. I main Yoshi so I'm use to this in a character
@@razorscootervs.ankles8152 Dude you keep talking about faster counter hit strings and being out pressured when this isn't even done properly in early ranks. Lei's strings are extremely confusing to not as good olayers and it's even shown in TMM's videos and live streams of him going up against actual players that he's able to sit there and spam over and over and players are not able to counter because they are scared/panicky. You can't argue with definitive proof literally on video
There are different types of difficulty, not only depending on level of play, but also difficulty of WINNING AS A CHARACTER, and difficulty of PULLING OFF WHAT YOU WANT TO DO, you should consider that when you're comparing difficulties of different characters. Like it's easy to win as Jin, but there are some things to drop like electrics or another stuff, or it's hard to win as a Gigas, but he has no stuff to drop or misinput
This I can respect. Good video dude, way better than the other trolly one you did about Lei. This is the kind of content this community needs.
Main man is the only fighting game RUclipsr I've seen that actively knows and cares about mid to low level play
It's simple, you are both right.
Lei has terrible frames so it's kind of hard to learn him (You have to use a lot of moves to compensate)
But at the same time, it's true that you never see him and you are easily stressed by all his weird mix-ups.
.....
You can't solve this problem because you are two différent player. One learn hundered of moves and timing for his character and train to use them in unique situation.
The other learn the key moves of the others character and play defensively, trying to punish the others misstakes.
Lei mains are all salty because the mighty Noctis can Oraaa! Them into the next galaxy.
I'm a Lei main...... Fuck noctis
ff3 can whiff punish ora. I find it weird that my list for match ups with Lei is different.
@@bigdsweet Leis only ranged options are FF3 and TIG4 are the only Rangey options Lei has, Noctis rules the neutral that's why the matchup is bias towards noctis. Its not as bad as what Alltimeszzz put but its pretty harsh
@@bujinfujin8603 TIG4 is not that far. I would say d/f 3 is a good ranged move but it sucks even when you do hit. Lei is stumpy.
I would say Lei has some of the worst neutral in the game. Whenever I go to play Kaz or even Asuka I feel like I can stay the face of my opponent. I can only do that with Lei in a stance.
@@bujinfujin8603 tiger 4 is not a ranged option, and you can enjoy being punished/launched because when u are in tiger, they are waiting for that slow low launcher to whiff and 100% prepared to punish/launch you. tiger 4 has deceptive range, but it's just deceptive, not long range compared to other characters. compared to leis own moves, then yea because lei's range sucks.
I picked up Lei a little while ago, and let me tell you, it’s a A LOT to remember. The guy TMM is critiquing, I actually watch and have learned a lot from him. Lei’s range is so awful, and you have to remember a ton of things while you play him. He’s got so many options and mix ups, and tricky execution, it’ll take awhile to master him
Alltimes is the complete opposite of B.Minus (the Nina player). He actually explained his take on the character very well and didn't shit on TMM for allegedly being bad at Tekken while using a dairy product waifu that carries players.
If there's anything I've learned here is that waifu-players aren't respected for a reason...
To be honest. Lei is a lot less frustrating than Nina. I feel like I can just hold block vs Lei and I win.
Man who's up next? Katarina? 😂
Kat only has three things that are hard:
1.) Wall stomp.
2.) Converting off just CH 4.
3.) Using EWTF (ff24) as a block punisher at -13-14.
None of it is really that hard. Kat's a little harder to play than Shaheen/Kazumi at top level, but she's overall pretty easy.
it is easily to understand, the razor attack is already hard to counter against in addition of Lei other 200 moves, it is what he intend to say.
But in high level in tekkie is more about poke fencing mix up, then all out mashing mixup buttons.
Katarina is very very difficult at all levels of the game and i'm making a video exposing MainMan's secret Swastika tattoo.
i agree with you here completely that all levels of play should be considered when judging a character's difficulty. Personally i am a yoshi player he is quite unique with his frames and tools and has different approaches to different skill levels. At lover level play you'll be throwing around unsafe moves and going into stances willy nilly, loving on that fcdf4 that is minus hop-kick while at higher level play you are almost afraid to throw that move out as well as use some of your stances. Flea is hard to approach besides it being back-turned (in that case it is a god stance and will literally kill everything) and by the wall. Kin is your run of the mill stance that yoshi uses in combos mix ups and pressure primarily.
just trying to give a few examples but long story short, his game-plan and move choice changes a ton as you progress with your tekken career. (getting to a higher level made me appreciate iws4, b1 and iws1 with yoshi)
{ending note: i think that yoshi becomes slightly easier in higher level play because people are familiar with your bag of tricks and you can construct more mix-ups and bait reactions or particular oki options from your opponent when his tool are correctly applied.}
8:25 The missing 0.09% of the playerbase is yet to be found
ok, I play this character a lot and let me tell you first hand that it is very tough, you can't just rely on a couple of moves for everything; Unlike ora or Dragunov wr2 or jin's f4. His 50/50 are strong but u need to into his stances to truly maximize it. Not to mention his stances has weakness where you cant block mids or lows. His rave sweep is launch punishable by everyone, his punishment is better only than Anna's, he truly lacks plus on block moves, his razor rush is only a potent weapon when you are well versed with his stances and know what you wanna do next. Not to mention even his RDs are also locked behind his stances and there are only a couple of good moves that help you transition into them quickly. So, my point is, just causes you main a Kazuya and your execution is 'hard', doesn't mean everything else is easy. No amount or charts or arcs help you when you have 100 plus moves you need to link together in tandem and worry about all the interruptions the opponent might try.
Can’t wait when it’s gonna go full circle, and he’s going to do a kazuya is cheap vid haha
He's kinda said it already haha. His 50/50 vortex in low ranks is insane, especially cuz people don't approach Tekken as a 3D game. Literally what he said.
@@Alpdude Kaz 50/50 vortex is cheap at any level
@@exiszt8423 it's cheesy yes, but high level, nah. Everyone knows it is there.
@@Alpdude Yeah it is there but the fact that you can just force your opponent to guess with crazy good oki after hellsweep is just godly on any level a guess is a guess doesnt matter the level
@@exiszt8423 It isn't so polarized. You can also take a grounded hit. You dont really see vortexes on high level matches.
Can we at least agree that these characters are harder to play than Kazuya?
What character is "these" which season did it come out?
Razor rush as most ppl think of it is NOT Lei's "best move" not by a long shot. Also, because a character has "200" moves does NOT make him great, dangerous, hard to defend or what have you. Especially when only a few of those 200 are actually viable.
Many ppl are NOT using Lei properly. In my competitive time at one point I was in the conversation of "Lei of America" with Suikenuser. I'm Blood Red from New York and if I had 10 mins with TMM SWE, I'd blow his mind on what Lei can truly do and what moves to actually use.
Are we just going to ignore the perfect electric that happened on 1:58? That was sick
Does anyone else find it funny that he put gigas at s tier for hard match? Not a lei man but that has to feel bad if thats consistent among lei players
Next video gunna be "macwro es not easy et es hard"
So are people suppose to feel a certain way for playing "easy" or "hard" characters or something? I'm just trying to understand the end goal of all this.
He mentions his student always tell him why they are getting destroyed by Noctis even when Noctis never won a tournament. That should give you an idea.
I personally heavily disagree with TMM, I think Lei *is* very hard, but people gotta stop making videos solely to debunk what he said. There’s no real point in doing it. It’s just a bunch of time, editing, etc. only to make a video that’s gonna end up with more dislikes than likes.
TMM says an opinion, people take it too highly, they either go 'TMM said it so it MUST be true!' or 'How could he?! I must debunk him!', TMM replies in a video and it goes on and on. It's basically a never-ending cycle. People from both sides just really need to remember that TMM's opinion isn't more important than anyone else's.
PotatoAsh That’s true. I’ve never seen anyone say that Lei was easy, or Tekken had too many characters until TMM said it. Like I understand that people may have the same opinion, and nothing against MM seriously I enjoy his content a lot, but I just find it odd that nobody was vocal about said opinion until he said it.
@@nixuniverse5240 I mean that's just how an influencer works I don't really understand why this would be odd to you lol. It's the same concept as any popular/respected person in any community giving their opinion on a subject. They would be more highly respected than some random that's only played the game for a couple years. So evidently TMM, someone who has played this series since its release and as a tekken RUclips channel with almost 100k subscribers, would have a highly valued opinion on tekken subject matters. It's not weird or odd, it's actually pretty normal...
Liam It’s odd because people should have their own opinions, regardless if a celebrity or influencer gives their own. I personally think Josie is around Mid Tier, and let’s say hypothetically that TMM said she was absolute garbage; would I instantly go around saying she’s trash now ? No, because I have my own opinion that she’s mid tier.
@@nixuniverse5240 That's the thing, people do have their own opinions but they develop these opinions multiple ways like experience, listening to a variety of perspectives, having a rational thought/discussion about said topic and those laat two things are done with the opinions of others. To say someone doesn't have their own opinion just because they agreed with someone else's doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Also, if most people develop their opinions from others then it wouldn't really be odd lol it's completely normal.
As someone who has been at Orange and Green ranks for quite awhile, I would actually argue that if there was a tier list of ez mode gimmicks, Lei would be fairly down there. Almost all his gimmicks are super transparent. I've never been killed by a Lei and left thinking "wtf just happened?" which is not the same I can say about many if now most characters in tekken. And I've found his razor rush gimmicks to be relatively easy to recognize and counter.
The reason why Kazuya is hard early is because of his pewgf learning process at the beginning but after you perfect it,kazuya becomes easier and easier
But in case of lei,he is preety easy at first but after you try learning his stands,he becomes harder and harder(Kazuya is preety useless without the knowledge of ewgf and Lei is useable even if you don't learn all of his 200+ moves)
2:12 that is not what he said, he said if you know how to counter the gimmics but not razor rush you will lose
I REALLY like the mindset of judging characters by ALL skill levels. It never made sense to me why the majority of people scream that only top level matters, given that (as you said), that only affects 0.1% of players (maybe less). If a character gives you free wins at every level of play unless you're pro, then that's an easy character.
Well if he states that Lei is super hard in high level, then hes not wrong. Im actually for it so Lei can be buffed properly. Also, almost every character is a noob killer in beginner/intermediate level, so mainmans thought process of this is a bit confusing to me.
A lot of characters can do well in low ranks, but what MainMan is talking about the level of effort required to stomp those noobs. If you're playing Katarina, Lei, or Noctis, you can put in fairly little effort, and get to stomp noobs quite easily. If you're playing Heihachi, Kazuya, or Bryan, you need to put in a lot more effort into stomping those noobs. In both instances, you crush the noob, but the level of effort isn't the same.
@@genzo454 Theres not one character that doesnt have a cheap move against the newbies. His arguement has a few flaws imo. Anyone who knows enough from thier character can abuse a move that they know and beat the newbies. Its not rocket science.
The game isnt that hard to understand that every character has an abusable move against new/intermediate, especially in online. Also bad connection palys a huge role here. U mentioned bryan being hard against newbies, example; snake edge is almost unseeable at 3/4 bars. Thats one thing that alot of bryans abuse online.
It baffles me how many people make the ”just counter gimmicks or just block and punish” argument when it comes to defending characters that are considered cheesy.
Just imagine TMM at a law firm (I think he is at law school or something) in the future for a job interview and getting the job for how good he articulates his points for the layman for his case and side of the story.
I think more than "pro" level viability, people just tend to call characters difficult when there's a long movelist or tricky execution. Forget Lei and Nina, I've even heard plenty of people claim that Mishimas, Steve, Hwoarang, etc are "hard" characters. It's also why Gigas generally isn't in the discussion for hardest character, and the poster boy/girl for easy characters are ones like Claudio, Shaheen, Kazumi, and Jack.
While I don't fully agree with TMM, I think my thought is more or less in line with his general philosophy, Character difficulty should take into consideration minimum effectiveness requirements for getting any wins. Characters like Nina and Lei may have high ceilings but it's not difficult to just jump on and get results with them. By contrast, a character like Lee requires a bit more work since he's mostly a "honest" character that requires some execution to get any meaningful damage.
I've main'd Lei since Tekken 4. He is a hard character to learn... But easy to play (Sort of) In Low ranks all the way to high Ranks, it just doesn't seem fair. Even in "Pro" ranks people sometimes have a hard time.
Mr Bare Foot Bogan you basically just said what MainMan has pointed out how he’s an easy character to use and how in pro level, he’s hard because of the skill level. He also mentioned that Lei IS hard to learn because of his fundamentals and his great amount of mixups. So what’s the point of this comment? Js.
@@kingxdatruth0998 he just wants to brag that he's a lei main since t4. Let the man have his moment. Lmao
@Gen Mac ig so lol. It’s just sad MainMan can’t express opinions without other RUclipsrs turning it into arguments.
It's because nobody knows the MU lmao. If more players played Lei from every rank then everyone's opinion would change.
@Gen Mac ty bro :'( I'm very proud of it.
Not to mention, on top of everything, if you want to actually lab the damn character you have to buy him first which like myself must people haven't done and aren't willing to pay for a character they won't play
Adding these to that resume/portfolio ehh? Keep grinding bro and good luck in the future 👍 hope you get the gig
I supposed to play with Lei in Tekken 3 about 12 years ago and no one can caught me at that time. Lei is obviously a very tough character but when you become a PRO than I can bet you that the God of Tekken aka King is nothing in front of him but only if you know how to completely handle the LEI in every situation.
I mean I agree with you here TMM. Just look at tournament results Pepperbeef2Spicy beat Lil Majin in competitive and also at Combo Breaker you actually saw 2 okay Lei players do really well vs Good players at that tournament.
So basically lei is difficult but u don’t have to do much because no one takes the time to learn what he does.
You made a video yourself explaining how lei is high difficulty, but high reward, now you switch after getting thrashed constantly by lei smh hypocrite
9:58 is that double flips ender unscaled damage Guaranteed ?!
Yes.