Why Are WoW Players Scared of Mythic+ Dungeons?
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- Опубликовано: 1 окт 2024
- Why Are WoW Players Scared of Mythic Plus Dungeons?
To find out, I dove into what may cause players to feel nervous about Mythic Plus content in World of Warcraft.
Merch: jaggro.creator...
My anxiety kicked in just watching the video.
Shhh shh, it's ok. This is a safe space. The 2000+ rated hunters can't get you here.
Lmao! I made it halfway through the first point, but as soon as he said I could start my own group I had to pause and concentrate on breathing.
I think it’s mostly that Blizz has a system that punishes you for leavers but doesn’t punish the actual person leaving. As a dps this can be incredibly punishing and discouraging when it can take nearly an hour to fill a group and just listing one locks you out of virtually all other instanced content. You literally have to sit and wait around then hope that people who join aren’t assholes. Meanwhile they are almost incentivized to brick your key at first sign of trouble since they have zero repercussions and value their time too
People don't seem to understand that M+ is designed for maximum toxicity. Every design point in the entire system is intended to increase toxicity.
@@willythemailboy2 Being toxic is a character flaw and has nothing to do with game design.
It's not the game. It's you
@@maartenneppelenbroek The game design actively attracts and encourages toxic players.
@@coler2277 Don't see how it could be, as I haven't ran an M+ since Legion.
People have gotten burnt one to many times, all it takes is a mistake or two and some random to yell(or in most cases type in all cap)and it just kill's all motivation to keep trying. Add to the fact M+ is mostly speed running with less room for error and an even bigger emphasis on meta gameplay, it's just not fun and can be pretty damn stressful.
I'd be lying if I said I was never frustrated with people who don't know tactics/how to play their class well. Definitely no need to be overtly rude about it though.
Thing is, it rly scares new players away.
A friend of mine bought the game, grinded and ran m+. (so we could play together)
He used guides and is an overall "i dont wanna waste anyones time" type player.
Yet if you do anything for the first few times, you do mistakes. aint no way around.
Still you get smashed, insulted, told to end it & told to go play tetris or anything..
He literally stopped playing, saying that there is no fun in stressfull speedruns where u get insulted and trashed for stuff u sometimes didnt even do wrong. Your fault your m+ rating is below 2k
Also it's so long grind to get anything decent for your investment. You need to grind decent stats to get into high keys and then grind even more to have a shot to win anything long term useful.
You can get booted for not even messing up.
Because of the community. It's wild that so many players (now into their 30s) absolutely REFUSE to get along with one another. It's super embarrassing, incredibly immature and keeps people away from playing content like m+, where this behavior really shines through. PvP participation is way down and m+ is down - the two areas where people act like complete fools to each other.
m+ is not way down lol theres always keys being ran
@@kinect2779 check wowhead. Blizzard released their own data showing it was down. Down doesn't mean it's dead. Relax fanboi 😂
Was gonna say something very similar, but I'll just agree and give you a like!
It's all because of the 'speed runner' timer being the main focus and not having a creative instance where you have to 'think' your way through it. No timer also means no loss of key and at worst you are only trading time which you do anyway by simply logging in to play this game. The whole design of mythic dungeons in its current state is just garbage. If you want to speed run games, join the plethora of communities out there dedicated to doing this on all kinds of different games. Speed running does not belong in an RPG.
@@SilentKME oh no random narwhal called me fan boy cause keys are still being ran daily xD get a grip
I've had people want to kick me from a group I created for my key -- because I wasn't playing a meta class/spec. I laughed and dropped the group. Ran it successfully with some others.
As a high end mythic raider and m+ player I can say that most of the groups are afraid of failers so they tent to pick players far above whats required to make it easier. People are also not very committed so they leave quick, easily triggered by everything and avoid any kind of voice chat which makes it impossible to build a coordinated random group to push M+ dungeons.
I'm amazed at the people who can do 20s without voice chat tbh. I'm definitely the type who needs to communicate.
@@Jaggro If you are lucky and the dungeon is easy than you can make it intime but above +20 in a fairly hard dungeon = no chance
@@dutyofcall7659 That's not true, its hard yeah, but people pug & time keys above 20 without voice chat all the time. Happened a lot throughout SL. But it is easier after the dungeons have been out a while and the routes/strats have been refined down.
@@bst857 Sure it happens but very rarely and only after intense grinding which wastes big amounts of time. Playing a coordinated group with voice makes it much easier.
@@dutyofcall7659 I'm 2889 io, I've pugged my way to 22's and it's difficult but usually players at this rating/skill level know what they're doing. It's just a matter of having some sort of communication, like assigning kicks for marked mobs is a great and simple way of handling most things in keys. 23 is where pugging becomes nearly impossible, except for SBG and CoS.
What bothers me so much about mythic plus (as they are my fav part of the game), is that Blizz made them so unforgiving with interrupt mechanics this season. You pretty much have to have coms in keys 18+ just for the kick and CD rotation. It's so much harder this season that you really need a steady 5 man team to exclusively run with while learning mechanics and getting used to tanking & healing habits in said keys. For instance, both of my guild's main 2 tanks run almost exclusively with their own groups. Luckily I tank more in M+ than I dps, however I have to pug keys on my main raid DPS... and it's just been a nightmare. So much more this season than any I can remember. Good players seem to stick together as it seems they are extremely hard to find in pugs, and it's just frustrating for someone who basically needs to run keys just to keep competing in raid.
I've had experiences with extremely toxic players calling out the lesser experience pugs to a degree they just straight up leave the group. I've had pugs get to a final boss of the key, ask for a bathroom break, come back just to leave the key. I've had players with 0 interrupts legitimately thinking other players are the problem (since they have a whopping 2k overall damage more than the ones interrupting.)
In closing, maybe I'm just jealous of the 5 man teams able to reliably run together 3-4 nights a week like clockwork while pushing content.
It's definitely apparent how overtuned the dungeons are as the weeks go on and the nerfs come in. As for forming your own groups, it is definitely the way to play if you want to get the most out of keys.
@@Jaggro Not fully sure about overtuning thing though. You absolutely can do 20+ without coms full pug and idk.. feeling like the challenge rating is okay? Currently at 404 ilvl, so probs going to be able to get to 24/25+ as my gear and experience gets better.
Now my "fear" is... If they nerf the content, what's the point really? Also, if someone's max is +12, why is it a problem? It's not overtuned dungeon, it's that their skill is at +12 level. Maybe I'm missing something, but things seem quite fine rn?
I would say getting to dungeons is much easier than raiding. In dungeons you can gradually increase your raideio scores. But in raiding no one will let you in on normal because you haven't defeat 8/8.
I definitely think it's easier to get an invite to a dungeon group than a raid group for sure. Raid groups (outside mythic) have just been a lot more chill in my experience.
Its is, but in case of dungeons, you gotta make through the ocean of saltiness and toxic crybabys.
Oh and dont forget the leavers, if one of ur DD dies it's time to alt+f4. What we still got 20min in this key? I dont care.
Also good time to alt + f4 when u stand in AOE and get like a 500k 1 shot. Fucking useless healer cant even outheal an ability supposedto delete me.. 1k bots...
1. You need to know all mechanics of all enemies in all dungeons in advance
2. You need to have a bunch of addons and WAs
3. A sheer endless amount of toxicity
I really want to hear your thoughts on this topic.
Obviously I'm not claiming to be god of M+ or stating anyone who's nervous is bad. I just wanted to take a stab at why Mythic Plus seems to be the most feared end game content when you visit forums.
Think I'm wrong or have your own thoughts/opinions? Let us know!
Also apologies if I sound nasally in this one, just coming out the other side of a cold. Thanks for watching!
i think it's the same as pvp, the challenge is on another level in comparison to the other content
there is fear because the difficulty spike is too much from only doings 9's to doing 10's and upper sometimes for people. If you do lower keys the difficulty really isnt there where people have to learn what to interrupt or do ; so once they try out a higher difficulty key and see the large amount of difficulty spikes it makes them not to want to try it again. Btw this is from someone who did a +12 temple earlier today where we had to explain to the healer that he has to dispel the dot from the last boss in which they argued with us they he couldn't dispel it as a priest...
I'd argue it's mostly about just having a solid foundation for a group. WOW as a whole is at it's best when you have friends. When playing solo and joining other solo players, it's just a groups of "dudes" tolerating one another. It's way easier to then just blame others for their shortcomings or ignore your own. Or get into a mindset of "if this group doesn't work I'll just find another." They then leave and you can't can't complete the dungeon for pity gear. Cause even when you fail a dungeon you still get loot, it's just a slightly lower ilvl.
You also have to factor in that the average WOW player isn't very good. A lot of them are stingy with cooldowns/defensives or don't know what some of their buttons do or when to use them. So a decent bit of these people just get skill checked by not interrupting cast bars or knowing it's ok to use cd's on trash.
I agree with your sentiments, but I do think that #3 Accountability is probably 90% of it. Most of the people that don't want to do M+ are very afraid of being the reason for a bad run.
Mythic+ is ruining the game. WoW was fun when it was a dedicated raid group that cleared raid content. Mythic+ just encourages anxiety, confusion and frustration, while adding in a large element of anonymity with pugs, so there's a good chance you'll experience toxic interactions. And now, proper raids don't even drop loot that compares. If you want upgrades you HAVE to do Mythic+....it just isn't fun. Why does Blizzard hate fun so much?
My advice for casuals is run low keys first. Don't bite off more than you can chew. Low keys are eons less toxic and you can learn by doing instead of reading guides. If it's too easy increase a level or two. If it's still tough play a few more low keys until you feel like you get the mechanics right.
Great advice
"eons" low keys i where i typically find the most toxic people
In my experience, 15-20s are FAR less toxic than 10-14s, and about as toxic as 2-7s. People get *desperate* for that KSM achievement, and if they view you as inhibiting that goal will lash out. Once you are past that hump, each individual key matters a lot less.
I say just start in lower keys!! Anyone who’s toxic in low keys is an awful person period and doesn’t represent us as a whole. People fuck up! Even highly skilled players familiar with the mechanics. Were people not robots lol
I have a little rant as a healer new to M+. what spooks me most about M+ is all the extra challenges.
When ever I start to push keys a little these extra challenges like having to run away from ghosts, making sure I don't spell lock my healing but also needing to make sure my needed healing goes out in those moments.
As a healer I already have so much to keep track of.
I can do it, but in terms of mechanics having to worry about the base instance mechanics, the challenge mechanics, healing and still be expected to DPS as much as I can when I have the time is just very overwhelming and I can feel my performance start to tank from the anxiety.
Like oh 2 dps died because my instant casts were on CD and I had to run from a ghost because my cc was on CD from the last ghost.
The fact that "people just die" in keystones is a common thing just crushes my spirit as a healer, it makes me feel like I am doing something wrong even if I am playing to the most I can on my class and technically didn't mess up majorly.
Like I can do all this stuff, but the fact I have to do so much at once and under a time limit makes me feel like I am not doing any of them to the fullest I know I can do them at.
And that is a horrible feeling.
I feel your pain and also as mainly dps (I have an alt priest I made for healing specifically) I must say that there are many times during those hectic times the DPS SHOULD USE CDs and not expect the healer to just heal through everything. So many times I've seen ppl blame the healer while propably their defensives are not on cd. I play warlock so I'm a bit tankier maybe but still I pop HS when needed and Dark Pact..or even the Unending Resolve if I feel like it's gonna make the life of healer so much easier and less stressfull at times.
Biggest problem is dps just want to faceroll and not do anything for self preservation, like paladins that wont use brez or shadow priests that wont self heal.
Same thing happens in raids, defensives,...whats that?
@@blacksabbathmatters It's gone on for a long time lol literally goes back as far as vanilla I'd say. I noticed in pvp during Cata that players couldn't comprehend using defensive abilities or CCs or even use a heal on a player nearby and it gets even worse in dungeons since they go in with the mindset of "oh its not my job to heal is it?" like they don't comprehend something *could* go wrong in a dungeon and it'd fall on the remaining group to pick it up. Enhancement Shaman made this easy since you could fulfill all the roles essentially.
DPS getting murdered by mechanics is sometimes not your fault and you shouldn’t stress about it.
It's because kids leave keys over ego issues, despite being obsolete in the real world.
I think that’s part of the issue letting someone know they messed up isn’t “toxic” depends on how you say it but I noticed a lot of people take any sort of criticism as toxic behavior
Little of column A; little of B
I think a little sensitivity to someone knowing they are making a mistake can go a long way
I’ve seen criticism being given in a positive way. And that happens so few times. It’s always someone malding like you were the catalyst to their villain arc
Unasked for criticism is just you being a know it all prick.
@4:30 kick your spark!
Aha! You passed the test and spotted the mistake! I definitely did it for the sake of the video and NOT because I didn't know the tactics....
Well it’s intense. It’s like swimming with the sharks. No one is your friend in a mythic+. Wow is a dog eat dog world where everyone is out for themselves, because the entire motivation of the game is to be better than every player. Any person who is better than you is someone you simultaneously want to use and will spit on if he makes just one mistake that could rob you of your success. Being an elitist and all powerful is the motive and fun of the game for many many people. Best thing to do is to find a group of friends to run mythic+. Wows player base has always leaned a bit more on the toxic side, as that’s the fun of the game for many people, but especially lately the game gives players a bit more tools to pull from to express their toxicity . The important thing to remember is wow is only a reflection of the dog eat dog world we live in, and unfortunately for many people who want to progress in a fun and friendly way will be shocked at how cut throat of a game it really is. But as long as you find a group of friends who you love to game with, you won’t run into these issues
I tried mythic+ when it was new in Legion and I couldn’t grow on it. It was too stressful and the amount of toxicity in players it brings out is overwhelming. I stay away from mythic+. The demand for things such as raiderio or whatever is ridiculous. I remember when running dungeons was suppose to be fun, not an S.A.T. test.
Buahaha you made my day
It’s not ridiculous. People just want to make sure they bring players who have some idea of what’s happening so that they don’t waste their own time and keys. Some players are assholes as with anything. But expecting people to take a chance on you when there’s a dude right next to you on the signup sheet with better gear and m+ rating isn’t realistic.
I kinda like that it is an S.A.T test tbh.. a good way to challenge yourself if you find the right people
I'm a grown man with a stressful job, bills to pay and people to take care of. I don't do M+ because I WILL NOT be screamed at by some 17yo elitist punk nerd who measures his life's worth in WoW achievements.
Louder for the people in the back! But for real it is pretty demanding. Best bet is to do it with your own group.
I tank 18, 19, and 20s in pugs. IO is currently 2500 range. I prefer to play with pugs and not guild members. Guild members get discouraged, and tilted. They like to throw in random bits of information during the run to show how much they know. They critique your decisions, regardless of whether or not you’re the more experienced player with a much higher score. You want to respect their input but at the same time you want to tell them to shut up and let you do the route and pulls you’re comfortable with. They don’t want to talk about the route beforehand or after either. Pugs might be rough, but they also place the run in my hands and let me do as I do. They don’t bitch either, and I don’t have to sit there in awkward silence when things go bad. I can just shake my head a bit and move on. Will I push the absolute highest keys 23+ in pugs? No, but I can get to 21’s and 22’s and I’m happy with that.
It’s very hard for me to believe that you’re a new RUclipsr. You definitely have the personality and voice man. Well done
Thats very kind of you to say. Thank you!
yeh if you want to do casual content thats cool. But dont go to non casual content and moan about it. And tbh i think m+ is pretty casual. But people moaning about having to learn things is just a clear sign this isnt for them. Unless they find 4 other people like them. In that case i dont give a goose about what they do
I kinda have the same problem when starting in M+. Finding the group. But now I joined the No Pressure (or Low Pressure, and Zero Pressure) community on WoW EU. Lots of groups going. And a very chill environment.
Week 1: "You can just walk into 15s"
Week 4: "77 deaths in Ruby Life Pools"
Bro your not lieing, I hate that dungeon I spent 2 hours looking at different videos on RUclips on how to perform better as a tank not easy.
You need a purge in there you need folks who can bait you need strong anti magic tank build like there’s niches that have to be met
I managed to clear in time +15 RLP with random people and it was most stressful 30 minutes ever just hoping everything goes right... worst thing is the sight that tank and healer died on last boss with 7% of health remaining on tyrannical and no crs available. Probably if I wasn't warlock and my pet hadn't taunt, I'd be dead like everyone else but somehow managed to finish it
@@skhaarl4952 tyrannical is just nightmare on 15 and above. Fucking worst time of my life in AV 16 tyrannical
Really loving the World of Warcraft content! Keep it up
Thank you kindly!
mistakes happen but if your consistently messing up and bricking keys god forbid other ppls keys, nows the time to start doin some home work or stickin to ur own keys
Exactly, as much as people want to just float through the content, there comes a point you HAVE to learn. If you don't want to do that, fair enough, but don't drag others down because you're not willing to put in the effort.
I've been avoiding Mythics for years simply because I don't even know what they are. Guildies talk about mythic keys and stones. Like what?!
As someone that went from playing Classic (first on Private servers, then blizzard's version from vanilla up to current wrath) into playing high M+ starting in Shadowlands, i can tell you the main "problem" classic players will encounter. I'll speak from my main perspective, that being of a healer (Discipline priest being my main, but i dabble also in Holy paladin and Resto shaman)
A) it's a complete shift in mentality... in Classic you're acustomed to having your spells, on them there is a little blurb that tells what the spells does, and you use it.
In retail, as a healer, if you go into a dungeon and start using your spells to heal, you're gonna barely massage your party's HP bars and barely heal the damage. Instead you need to learn what your passives do, the fact that X spell empowers Y spell, and that they both receive an additional effect by spell Z (for example Resto shaman's Unleash life + riptide stacking into cloudburst totem..which is the bread and butter of most shaman pulls, yet its not as easy to understand as simply reading what 1 spell does)
B) way more to keep track of. Just check the footage of any M+ key above 7-8, then compare it to any scenario from vanilla to wrath. The amount of actions required by any player per second are not even comparable.
From my experience, as someone that has a lot of time spent in "classic" versions of the game, most classic players don't "really" want to have a super challenging time. There is a reason why now that Ulduar is out many want to go back in Molten Core and Blackwing lair. Guilds went from chilling in discord bullshitting and joking with each other and occasionally focusing on a boss fight, to having to do constant callouts + listening to the raid leader without interrupting; and personally i see nothing wrong with either, i adore both versions of the game..but it just isnt the socially focused-chill experience that most classic players want (it's also why i think there is the HC craze now..it's a way to still enjoy the super casual and chill game that is vanilla WoW, while at the same time making it interesting)
That atmosphere is the complete anthithesis of Mythic +, in which every single run is 20-30 minutes of hyper focus on mechanics and nothing else, especially in pugs.
I would rather drink piss than PUG in this game, I never play it without friends.
Based
It's not that we are scared it's that I don't want to do another M+ the rest of my life. It was cool for an expansion and NEVER should of become a pillar in the game ruining it. Sorry the game was infinitely better before M+ and WoW has become lack luster missing content ever since it's addition. Things like the toxic vault, M+ have destroyed the game. Just like in D3 where Rifts destroyed that game so has M+. If you removed M+ tomorrow and they went back to a more traditional progression, also removed LFR. The game would be better. Also remove the vault.
A prime example of why it’s hard for blizzard to take feedback. M+ is a great part of the game the vast majority of players enjoy doing. But you don’t like so it’s ruining wow somehow. Just ignore it if you don’t like it.
"Ladder anxiety" as it was aptly termed by the starcraft playerbase. I think this is the same pretty much.
I didn't know that terminology existed. Thank you!
The most basic reason is that too many people are reward driven and just want an easy way to loot and/or rating. This results to both people who quit if things go bellow their expected threshold as well as those who either either directly toxic or require too much from others.
All these are bypassed by doing M+ mainly with people you know from your guild, dedicated community, streamer communities etc.
The main problem are the keys are over tuned and there’s a meta comp associate with keys so only a few players are ideal and that gets amped by IO rating pretty much need your own friends and they need to be decent. Players
The best case scenario definitely seems to be having your own group.
As a 2500 player, meta-comp is the last thing on my mind when forming my own group. The only thing I'll really consider maybe is having a brez or not, and many classes bring that.
By over-tuned do you mean the gear rewards are too weak for what is required? I'm not sure... between valor upgrades and vault, much of my best gear has come from M+. If it's too difficult, just do a lower difficulty.
Haven't played WoW since Legion. I tried to do mythic+. I even switched to blood DK because I couldn't get groups on my rogue and people were whining about lack of tanks. Let's just say I'd rather punch myself in the dick than PuG Mythic+. The constant shit from DPS because I didn't know the "approved" paths, fuck that shit. Never again.
It's content meant for friends to do together. Not this PuG shit.
I don't think it's always a matter of being scared. A lot of people have access to a group of friends to do mythic+ with. With no social repercussions for failure.
The issue, at least for me; Is that Mythic+ as a system doesn't belong in World of Warcraft (Though bear in mind that I say this with the sensibilities of an old man who's seen the game evolve over almost 20 years).
There are many factors to consider too. The overall experience, the kind of person it seeks to attract, the way it's implemented etc. etc. Seemingly always seem to crystallize into things I don't want in my RPG.
I like certain ELEMENTS of mythic+, and I feel that they do have a place in an RPG. Affixes, for instance are a great example of this.
But those elements have also been implemented in a really poor way by blizzard, and seem to be an ongoing topic of contention in the community. Like many deaths being completely unavoidable due to bad RNG and the fact that healers are supposed to do way too much at once that doesn't revolve around healing. in a high key, a person can die in the matter of a GCD because the healer was forced to do other shit to make it work. Again, that's an issue of poor implementation and bad design philosophy, separate to the system philosophy I spoke of first, but one of many major issues to say the least.
All of this is without taking into account many of the other things that are issues in WoW right now such as botting, boost-selling, LFG system etc. etc. that exacerbate and compound on any other issue the game also has.
I found this video looking for a "M+ for dummies" guide... It hits all the reasons I dodged Mythic dungeons until now. When you are being flamed for not knowing a Shortcut in a NORMAL dungeon run, one starts to wonder if you can get everything right when there is noone to explain it to you once you enter the instance.... What are the mechanics of each trashmob, how do I react if someone does not do X mechanic, As my RIO is 0 can I even queue as tank not knowing what to pull and not having a gauge on what I can survive at all, do I need to worry about consumables? flasks? foodbuffs? I have no idea how the enchant and socket meta works .... the list goes on and on if you are a true casual wanting to do SOME form of endgame.
As someone who has the original Amani War Bear, done mage tower, cakewalked through brawler's guild in every season, and have a generally okay concept of how to research a class to play it, I don't think I'm likely to ever group again. The overall attitude of players has changed so much and not for the better. Not everyone learns exactly the same, and in my experience, reading the dungeon journal or even watching a guide is not a great substitute for putting in reps on a boss. Well, putting in reps on a boss is more or less discouraged nowadays, especially with how M+ is set up as it's interpreted as wasting other people's time. Couple this with the fact that guilds are half the time substituted by outside the game online communities (such as discord) and applications for guilds are far more commonplace, it is entirely possible that you walk the lands of Azeroth completely and utterly alone with no one willing to take a chance on you.
Agree with this entirely. There absolutely should be the ability to fail in dungeons - I remember many fails in Cats and BC. But the cost of failure for Mythic+ is prohibitive. Not timing a key is seen as absolute failure by the vast majority of players.
Not only that, but encounter knowledge required is high. There are lots of interrupts needed but many spells cast just there to eat your interrupt, very specific and unintuitive strategies for pulling, and crazy affixes that make certain dungeons become unbearable
did you just flex with brawlers guild
@@ynas1414 More a point of reference. From watching hundreds of matches waiting for my turn, I can tell you the win rate on some matches like Hexos was incredibly low from what I saw. Possibly only around 1 out of 10. But really, it's less a comment on the difficulty in absolute and more generally that I'm a veteran in solo content, what little there is catered to a challenging level in WoW. Also, this was a while back, I might have just felt insecure that day I don't know. Have a good day!
It sucks. Your online score for M+ will be checked before you get an invite. Once in, the atmosphere is more toxic than I’ve seen in any MMO over 20 years. Expect to be insulted, not healed, kicked. If you make it through the event, the rewards are rng based and not worth the pain. Lastly, they aren’t fun.
My problem with the more recent design of mythic+ is that is overvalues aoe damage, CC really isn't a factor outside of aoe stuns and the affixes are needlessly punishing to the healers. Almost everyone I know that says they love mythic+ are dps players, it's very rare you'll find a tank or healer that claims they love pushing highly stressful key attempts.
I just want to do the dungeon, not go download 3-5 addons so I can effectively navigate debuffs while having to min/max my dps as a healer, I'm not a disc priest and most of my globals are being used to keep peeps alive. That's why I dislike mythic+, I just want to heal.
I stopped doing Mythic+ Healing is just way too stressful!! Trying to keep people alive with affixes that keep punishing a healer class constantly isn't fun, While dps just needs to damage and move from mechanics.
They have made healing punishing and just too stressful to have fun in M+
I think m+ is fun and I don't get why people are so mad about dying or losing. Most of the leavers in my groups are actually the worst players. They will mess up their mechanics and affix, die, and quit. But if you make your own premade for dungeons, you will have infinite fun.
I care little for ilvl so M+ is really not interesting to me.
But besides the players themselves, the biggest issue for me is simple: Raider IO.
I am simply not jumping through hoops for some 3rd party off brand skill points system
Pretty much pointed out all the reasons im skeptical about doing keys majority of the time, i was doing low keys like 3-4 and people were like why are you here you should be doing higher keys and im not eh...really? should i tho? Had no confidence in moving forward cause i didnt want to ruin anyones key or time
It's a game...... Breathe people. Go outside. Get some fresh air.
Grass won't get me RIO score though...
If you're new just go in as damage. No worries, no responsibility haha
You are trying to sell something that shouldn't be in a MMORPG to players that want to play a real MMORPG and not some got to go fast battle royal clone. Dungeons should be dungeons and there shouldn't be a timer or a "feature" that makes people want to just leave the key after one wipe...
they are more anoyting then fun, the pug community is among the most toxic ones (even mothe than LoL), samo of them need just 1 mistake to brake the key, the fact that a person can brake your key just cause they feel like the group wont time it. most players dont like playing the old content dungeons. and all players hate that they are not playing the 4 restricted new dungeons.
New affix is boring and another player can screw you over with it (either runing and stunning you or removing it too early )
dont think i have ever done a mythic plus that did not contain pretty much everything you said about it at the beginning of the video XD
it is probably the most toxic place in the game i have ever encountered especially as a healer
tank pulls half the dungeon then dies in 3 seconds flat ? wtf healer keep up will you ?
dps randomly dies cause lack of kicks or messing up mechanics ? healer wake up do your job
healer himself dies because he was too focused spamming everyone else ? healer wake up dude dont be lazy
its just terrifying
I think M+ would be a lot less stressful for new players (and even veterans alike) if it didn't have a timer. For many it's a lot of pressure to have the clock ticking and not being able to afford failure.
Why even have the mode at all then? Thats the whole point. Dungeons arent supposed to play like a raid. They are supposed to be fast paced.
I think that people put too much stock in needing to time it. If you arent able to time the key you are running, normally it just means you arent ready to go any higher. And thats fine.
The problem is the pass/fail mechanic of timing
Speed runs as content have been tried for years but frankly that’s not how a lot of people like their dungeon content. Going in blind and learning as you go is huge fun and now it’s just a job you have to do to get ready for Speedruns.
@@ThaDarkSaviorgood idea, we actually should fully remove this dog shit system.
Raid or die.
Brain rotten ass idiots who have fully succumbed to their adhd actually think speed running dungeons is content LOL
Not hard to find a group, just drop a discord link every dungeon, if u like someone’s vibes or playing with them add them and boom you have friends.
Yeah unless you have friends who just wants to enjoy playing wow and don't mind bricking the 🔑, it demoralizes you
I'm not scared of it I just always hated 5 man content. I like pvp primarily but much prefer raiding for pve
0:43 who ecer that player is... probably sucks at healing. also you need to select who you want in your group.. you cant just randomly que.. dudes a little cry baby.
I just wish that mythic plus difficult system of legion. When 10s had fort and tran, but not it's starts at 2.
Scared? No…. Disappointed!!! Look at the reward, is a mount that can’t fly!
People have to learn a dungeon and the challenges of it along with thr affix. Most players can't be asked to learn the game or their class past click spells.
i find the mechanics boring and tedious...
everyone is in a mad rush...
and the toxicity levels rival those of radiation
poisoning.
mythic+ is the worst concept wow has ever faced and will be the doom for its casual / regular players.
No one is scared of M+ just the ppl that run it are elitist so who wants to go through the hassle of not getting accepted to in a LFD. Also most guilds are casual now so there is that.
This is actually a very interesting perspective.
I've been maining a variety of tanks for years and don't have as many of the problems as described because being the "leader" of the group, forming my own keys and being familiar with the mechanics is just second nature to me. I've been making my own routes for years while playing healers and dps alts or offspecs to keep an eye on what other tanks do and what I can do better so I don't become stagnant in my tanking abilities.
I had a conversation with a friend the other day about his perspective as an off-meta healer and difficulties of getting into groups, doing keys etc, and I suppose from lucky coincidence this video and that conversation inspire me to create some sort of "guide" to a more pleasant pugging experience. We'll see if I get anything done lmao
Edit a month later: i did not get anything done
Raider IO is an add on you are using man. The in game version of that is just called rating. They are not the same.
In reality I rarely ever come across toxic ppl in mplus. All the random groups are mostly chill ppl. When you start getting into higher mplus keys like 16’s and above is when you start seeing elitist ppl even then they aren’t in every group.
Weirdly enough I've had less issues 15+ and more issues with 7 - 10s. A lot of players thinking they should only take meta classes to do a +8. Toxic wise tho, I feel if you know what you're doing people are chill for the most part.
True and the most vocal.players in pugs tend to be the ones that dont kick, use def cds or stun anything. Its also quite common to vent on the healer if the dps dies even if its a oneshot :) but compared to others games the community is pretty chill
@@Jaggro yeah I haven’t pugged many lower end keys, my buddies was on more at the start so it kept me out of pugging the first few weeks. I get what you’re saying though, I noticed that in shadowlands a lot with lower keys. The guy that’s blaming you for dying to a casted ability by a dangerous mob, is also the guy who hasn’t kicked a single ability in the key.
I see the opposite where anything below a 15 has toxic players. Bad players breed toxicity. Higher keys everyone is aware that people make mistakes and 1 mistake can cost a key. This isn't the same as bad players in lower keys who don't even have interrupt on their action bar who start blaming the healer for wipes.
From my exp. as player since Vanilla(launch of Wow) and a 2500+ Mythic Tankadin...Toxicity came from the new generation (and don't be offended is the truth) because they learn from other games when they started the first ever game (which ever was that) to flame,blame and have an attitude that they need to be like a Pro Player (and the reason of that i think is E-Sports that is the destruction of the purpose to have a hobby like gaming, back then we didn't have guides, we didn't have that competive gaming to prove anything, we didn't have a lot of shit that uploading now on youtube(how to become better how to get 40000 Gear , how to reach 30000 IO ETC)we had good times, just chilling and having fun, even if we was dying try (Remember Leeeerroooooyy Jeeeenkinsss)...nowdays noboby talks to you ingame even they bored to say a hi, not a single RP to have fun to do something fun other be the 1st with max gear better IO ,the 1st that have 25+M keys etc etc(and all of this just because they are trying to become like the PROs) it's a lot of things and big conversation around it ....
I think it's a mix. The most elitist players are the older ones for sure. Those who feel because they raided Molten Core when it first launched that they're the ultimate authority on the game. Then there's the LFG generation who are way less patient and prone to snapping. Of course this is a massive generalization but I think each generation brings their own problem children.
I'm not scared of M+, just Ruby Death Pools.....
I used to raid mythic, heroic before mythic was even a thing. I quit in Legion and have been casual ever since. I did +15s for the mount in Shadowlands s1 but after that I wasn't interested. Now, I just really appreciate having free time and not having to commit. I want to have the rewards, better gear etc, but I love not having a schedule or disappointing a group (or myself) when I can't make it.
They aren't scared of the dungeons. They are scared of all the toxic blowhards who ruin it for everyone.
Had commented part way through the video, but figured you would make the same point at some point 😂
Doing mythic plus has made me realize I only want to pvp.
I disable chat, tank, then leave. I leave early if the group is trash. (Under geared). I keep it simple. More people need to disable chat if you already know mechanics .. helps a bunch. Also try to run YOUR OWN KEYS.
E F F I C I E N T
Don’t be ashamed if you don’t have perfect gear and finished all the end game stuff. Enjoy the game! Week by week as you gear up you will naturally build to higher keys. It feels great running a key you couldn’t do last week but can do this week !
Amen
Need IO to get groups. Need groups to get IO....
Feels like real life.
Need experience to get a job, need a job to get experience.
@@Hydde87 except WoW isn’t a job, but certain content feels like it…which kind of answers why nobody is playing m+
Nice video! Really loving the content. Something I thought about as I was watching the video (and something I've experienced for myself) is that, along with item level and raider io score, the type of class you play weighs heavily into the decision to get invited to a group. Don't have blood lust? Don't have a battle ress? You're class isn't optimal for the affixes? Sorry we'll take the bloodlust, ancestral guidance, shammy over your demon hunter that can...eye beam? Can get a bit frustrating, especially when the keys are lower than a 10 where those differences don't have too much of an impact on completing the key. Keep up the content. Already looking forward to the next video!
Didn't even think about mentioning the class Meta but you're 100% right. Sometimes playing the wrong class means getting completely locked out of content
I just can't be arsed to be looking for a group "manually". That's it for me.
They should add at least the first few keys to LFG.
It takes SO GOD DAMN LONG
I used to do almost nothing on m+, and was afraid of a 6+ key or higher, and the tip to pass through the fear of doing m+ is exactly doing it and failing a lot of times, and don't be afraid of higher keys, just queue up and do it, at the first ones you probably going to suck, but you get used to doing it as long as you queue up and complete the keys, it does not matter if you time it or not.
Another thing that help me with this fear was to do the keys with some friends, it's not that hard to make friends to play with you on the m+ queues, a lot of people especially in lower keys are trying to learn themselves to, so group up and chill hehe
Love Dragon Flight, I always do mythic and raids. So much fun 🤩
you need friends to do this shit with, unless youre good enough solo but most people arent so they get tossed into an endless vortex of toxic people letting them know they fuckin suck, pugs leaving after the first wipe they cause, or they get carried to the end. idk its fun at the start but i dont see how people look forward to new seasons of that shit
*by friends i just mean people who will have fun regardless of what + youre running
Facts
Not scared at all, I just find it boring af, and I know many people who only run a 15 a week for the weekly chest. I cant even be arsed to do that anymroe.
To each their own, that's part of the fun of WoW. I know people who don't even do end game and just level/quest. There isn't really a wrong way to play it as long as you're not messing up anyone else's experience.
....I would never let myself think im smart or clever enough to choose other players to play a game, i certainly want nothing to do with someone deciding if i can play a game !
I HARD relate. I'm never the one selecting the pugs in my group. I ALWAYS get it wrong lol
I'm not 'afraid' of M+, I do them quite regularly, but the part I enjoy about them the least is the timer. If M+ could be reworked to require less ZOOM ZOOM ZOOM behavior, I think more people would enjoy them. People would have time to explain tactics, apply CC etc.
Even doing normal dungeons while leveling is terrible, veteran players will just rush through. I imagine it's quite disappointing for new players.
The timer is the entire point of M+
Time makes it fun and worthy. Without time it's not going to work.
timer + many bad attitudes is why I'm casual these days. don't need m+ if I gotta deal with those.
Sounds like M0 to me
Yeah, having to deal with other players in an inherently stressful environment pretty much sums up why I have no interest in M+, especially with strangers. If M+ had no timer I think I'd be more willing to jump into them. There's already an indirect pass/fail mechanic for upgrading keys based on how many times group members have died, I think that could handle key upgrades by itself with no need for a stress-inducing timer.
There are a few things that need to change about the system to reduse the perceived difficulty.
Stop down ranking keys when you fail to time or leave early. Thus only hurts 1 person in the group and it is often the person who started the group who gets screwed over here.
Dungeons should drop 2 items at a minimum even if not timed. And a max of 4 for a +2 or better. This will lower the toxic nature of expecting turbo mode runs in lower keys.
Add incentives for tanking and maybe healing. Like make the score go up faster for them. So players have a reason to do those role more then faster que. Or give them some currency bonus or tokens that you collect to trade in for specific gear. Something that can make the vastly more critical parts of the group be rewarded more to off set the hate you will get for when you screw up.
And last but not least, lower the max level required for dungeons to cap loot rewards back to 15. 10 was for sure to low but 20 is to high. Dungeons really stop being fun around 17 when most stuff will one shot you.
Very interesting ideas, I would LOVE if they didn't downrank a key if the group abandons it. The majority of my keys are dropped due to leavers and not actually failing the key. I like the loot idea too. The quicker you complete it, the more loot you get, even if the extra loot locks out after a while, you'll still have more incentive to run lower keys that way.
Great ideas overall.
I don’t think rewarding healers is going to make a difference. It’s an extremely demanding role that takes most of the blame for wipes. That’s not worth a bump in score or even an extra item when M+ is largely chill mode for DPS.
So, making the maximum level gear drop from +20s was a good change… its the best gear you can get in the game aside from killing the last raid boss on mythic. It shouldnt be easy to get and super attainable. The absolute best gear should be your reward for having mastered that content, to the point where you are actually able to complete a +20. Mythic raid is hard af too, thats why it drops crazy good gear. Why shouldnt dungeons be the same?
Wow thats a whole video to simply say GIT GUD
You forgot whether or not you are a flavor of the month Meta or not
You can still get m+ rating if you don't time a key ...think the cutoff is 40% over time
Yeah I clarify that a bit later in the video over text.
Pugging is extremely toxic and if you don't know everything about the dungeon before you go in you'll get shit on, started as a healer this expansion, started mythic plus , got completely shit on going thru growing pains and learning the dungeons but got thru it and sitting at 2500 now
Great job! Pugging is definitely not for the thin skinned.
M+ is toxic af to pug...that's why i dont
I understand there are some idiots out there who will make you miserable, but is pointing out an error that fucked up the whole run toxic now? How do you improve then? If you can't tell someone that they did X but instead should've done Z. Ofc you can tell it nicely.
That's the key, it's doing it nicely. Very big difference between "Please don't kick the domination" and "WTF WHY WOULD YOU KICK THE DOMINATION?! YOU MORON!"
@@Jaggro Definitely, however you can see immediatelly that the people who joined your group don't have a clue what to do, then you can leave the group. In timed content you should not have to explain to people what to do - if you are joining timed content (competitive/race) you are expected to have some basic proficiency and knowledge of said content.
Don't wanna do homework.
As long as a timer and raiderio exist, pugging keys will always be the most toxic experience
This why I stopped playing them after Legion. Not a fan of timer based shit in dungeons as is (unless its for an extra challenge), and the added scoring system immediately turned me off and not because I'm bad or anything. I do think this game will be on its last legs (whenever that time happens) and Blizzard will still find a way to turn it into competitive esports bullshit just because. That's their issue with WoW really.
I look forward to see how the FF14 devs implement a similar system as they mentioned interest last year. At least there, hardcore players don't lord over everyone and can be banned for being dicks.
Solo Shuffle has been pretty damn cool though, but I do believe a better personal scoring system in random queue rated BGs (this is how FF14 does it) would have been a better fit for the player base.
@@Turbotef Exactly how I feel, TIMED content is not my thing, I prefer to do outdoor content and chill, I miss TBC heroics where you had to use strategy and take your time.
Raiderio is now implemented by blizzard so it’s not going away anytime soon
@@Turbotef weren’t they already implement it ?
I thought criterion dungeon is supposed to be the “challenging 4-man content” (and goddamn challenging it is , on savage at least) now they just need to make it actually rewarding cuz last i saw it’s just some materia and a chair
@@Turbotef not sure what you mean, by the "if not for extra challenge", for that"s exactly it. Raiderio simply lets people play with people around their skill level. I personally think its vital for the game that both exist. I want to progress and challenge myself, which would be impossible without systems like this in play.
For BG, I think its simply too hard to evaluate individual performance. All in all, it's good thing that alternatives exist. Personally I found FF boring and unchallenging with horrible monetisation model, but then again, I've got good friends who enjoy that too.
A lot of people want to be carried and its sad,
I'll go back to M+ when M+ disappears from the game. Until then, you won't catch me dead or alive in any single M+ run. M+ is a waste of time, and the community is a waste as a whole.
M+ is far from a waste of time. It's the best source of gear outside of raiding.
Now pushing keys into the 22+ region. Now THAT is time wasting.
@@Theparadoxd7 I'm glad you don't find it to be a waste of time. I find it to be that. From how long it takes to form a group, to actually having a decent player or two in the group (while avoiding your basic toxic sweaty m+ runner), it is all just too frustrating to be worth the small upgrade in ilvl. Party on, you won't catch me dead in m+ ever.
I do M+ but I also arena, raid, and everything inbetween. But M+ needs more rewards besides just RNG loot and a mount. They should add dungeon themed transmogs for doing high keys
That would be awesome. Like some kind of 1 time goal reward for every +5 levels.
I am 2650 and honestly most people aren't toxic, it's pretty rare. When a key is bricked you just collectively agree to leave and call it.
It's definitely more prevalent in the low keys.
There are tons of toxic people, and elitist people. I absolutely love doing keys, but the ones that take it to seriously ruin it for me.
IF YOU PUG you will hate the game
Yep i dont want to do hard work for a game. I could careless about M+.
Valid
It's not fun, or worth the aggravation
When the concept is unforgiving, also the players are unforgiving. An unforgiving game concept creates unforgiving toxic players. This is the exact reason why I have never bothered to run Mythic+. The entire concept is toxic.
0:58 “they’re really not hard…”
he’s in an 8 rofl
Considering the whole point of the video is talking about keys lower than +10, I'd say being in an 8 makes sense but you do you
Easier to get into these as a healer or tank