I'm right about the Old Goku...! | DBZ

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  • Опубликовано: 4 окт 2024

Комментарии • 630

  • @sixfromtokyo
    @sixfromtokyo  Год назад +47

    playwt.link/six

    • @SpammytheHedgehog
      @SpammytheHedgehog Год назад +4

      Goku is a fighter. Not a lover.

    • @HoagieDSub
      @HoagieDSub Год назад +2

      Fake six lol

    • @sonnywoods6846
      @sonnywoods6846 Год назад +4

      I am starting to think that the way Goku is portrayed in the Manga is due to Akira Toriyama Editor. Just like with George Lucas and the original Trilogy when he allowed other people to direct the movies, I think the Dragon Ball Editor Kept Akira Toriyama in check. The editor is the reason Goku is the way he is in the Original Manga, but in the Super Anime the Editor is not around to keep AT and the anime writers in check. This why Goku is so different in Super

    • @trollking6315
      @trollking6315 8 месяцев назад +1

      No piss off sellout

    • @stephanos6128
      @stephanos6128 Месяц назад

      ​​​​@@sonnywoods6846 that would mean none of DB is canon outside of whatever is in Toriyama's head
      either Toriyamas an inconsistent and bad writer or the editors literally carried the entire series

  • @brandonreed3670
    @brandonreed3670 Год назад +355

    I feel like Toriyama wrote Goku as nuanced enough that we understand that he’s generally a pretty selfless person, but he also enjoys testing his limits. Goku fights to protect others AND to test his limits. Toriyama has basically never written Goku into a scenario in which Goku had to pick between a good fight and protecting others. I guess the closest thing would be him letting Vegeta live, which does result in a lot of Namekians dying, but Goku never has to deal with the consequences of that decision.
    Like Six said, Goku almost always shows concern for the well-being of his friends and innocent bystanders. He isn’t like a superhero who seeks out threats to stop and spends his spare time flying around trying to stop crime, but he also wouldn’t just let an innocent person die or get hurt if he was around to help them.

    • @jeffreyredding9229
      @jeffreyredding9229 Год назад +17

      Which makes him a person

    • @GeteMachine
      @GeteMachine Год назад +15

      I think the best example of the poison Toriyama is talking about is more obvious with Vegeta, because he would cast aside other people only because he wants to push himself and prove superiority as a Super Saiyan, like the way he let Cell get his Perfect form, rather than kill him. Vegeta wanted the challenge of beating Cell at his best, as his fight with him prior didnt satisfy him. Its selfishness but not maliciousness. Goku shows something similar as he learns it from Vegeta when he tells Beerus in BOG that he hated that he couldn't achieve the power on his own, and doesn't feel like he earned the power up but will use it because he wanted to fight Beerus, and had to, so that Earth wouldn't be destroyed by him.
      Goku also giving Cell the senzu was him keeping his bargain with Cell to give him the good fight he promised him, and let him regain his strength after their fight because he wanted to prove that Gohan was that good fight, but he gambled on Gohan doing it, not considering him hesitating the way he did.

    • @markandrew287
      @markandrew287 Год назад +11

      Goku still counts as a superhero (imo any character that has a sense of justice and has superpowers count, i.e such as Sonic the Hedgehog), but he just doesn't count as a vigilante which is what most (not all) superheroes tend to be.

    • @delanoheath
      @delanoheath 11 месяцев назад +3

      None of that has anything to do with his difference and change in personality…

    • @captaindystopia
      @captaindystopia 11 месяцев назад

      marvel heroes made us think how superheros are supposed to be and honestly they're almost all the same which is just lazy writing and autism.
      dragonball is superior becouse its not about a loner writing about hero stuff its about a genius trying to make the world a better place through media and thats just obvious since a ton of details in dragonball are simply overlooked.
      dragonball is deeper then it seems.
      superman and batman and stuff arent. they're just borderline stupid people with problems a person would never care about as much and superpowers that solve everything
      goku is never good enough to save the world, he just keeps on doing whatever he can to become a better person and stronger aswell and thats barely enough to make it, just like in real life.
      another obvious thing is dragonball is trying to be unrealistic it seems and most of it makes sense by default which is just genius.
      marvel and dc try to be realistic with giving everyone a backstory thats supposed to "make sense" but the reality is almost nothing in that media makes sense.
      i know its a dumb take for fiction but my point is simply dragonball is better fiction then marvel and ESPECIALLY dc
      goku has complexity and thats why the dumb people cant understand him becouse they think goku is a troll which is just proof that thhey're not worthy for akira toriyama

  • @HC-gm4fo
    @HC-gm4fo Год назад +490

    I always thought being dead for 7 years is what changed him the most.

    • @sixfromtokyo
      @sixfromtokyo  Год назад +146

      It seemed like it.

    • @kkgadsonii6637
      @kkgadsonii6637 Год назад +98

      Definetely felt more detached after those 7 years . It feels as him going through super is him reaclimating to the way he was before but its a process. However, thats head cannon lol

    • @emmarod8746
      @emmarod8746 Год назад +19

      @@sixfromtokyo​​⁠​​⁠ Hi Six, I have a video suggestion. I’ve seen a lot of Naruto hate and disrespect going around recently. Stuff like he is the worse of the big 3 or calling him bland midruto. People are hating on his character and his philosophy. It really upsets me the amount of hate he is getting because he is my 3rd favorite superhero only after Ben 10 and Spider-Man. It would be awesome if you made a in-depth video about Naruto’s character like you did with Goku and if he is a good and interesting character or not. I sure it would be great and I will support the video if you want to make it.

    • @whatwhat98
      @whatwhat98 Год назад +31

      No. It's just bad writing.

    • @_Mikeebeed_
      @_Mikeebeed_ Год назад +9

      Good excuse for the people who say “GoKu wAs AlwAyS liKe ThiS!”

  • @GabrielTorres-fl2xo
    @GabrielTorres-fl2xo Год назад +88

    Goku did kill Freeza and Cold in Future Trunks timeline, so he was not kidding, he learned from his mistake and was not going to let Freeza get away a second time

    • @mesdecent8051
      @mesdecent8051 Год назад +4

      I mean... We are pretty sure he did.
      Guess we will never know if in that timeline Freeza and Cold joined the Z fighters and where then killed by the androids.
      It's an extremely bizarre and unlikely scenario but we really know nothing about this battle.

    • @_Mikeebeed_
      @_Mikeebeed_ Год назад +1

      @@mesdecent8051we do

    • @ptsd.gabriel5772
      @ptsd.gabriel5772 8 месяцев назад +17

      @@mesdecent8051 Trunks stated he did

    • @ravenouself4181
      @ravenouself4181 21 день назад

      @@mesdecent8051 Future Trunks confirmed that Future Goku did kill Freeza and Cold. Please, rewatch the Anime.

  • @lightspeed4615
    @lightspeed4615 Год назад +357

    The panel after Goku "kills" Frieza is one of the best panels of manga ever. I'm my opinion no other single adaptation quite captures the aray of emotions Goku felt. He looks sad, disappointed, and angry all at the same time. Toriyama conveyed this with NO words in a single image. No game, anime, or other adaptation feels as hollow and gut-wrenching as that panel does. It's truly a work of art.

    • @godspeedredeicieli4384
      @godspeedredeicieli4384 Год назад +42

      I agree with you, the way his hand trembles and the conclusion of such a great fight ending in that way is honestly legendary

    • @frankgrimes5260
      @frankgrimes5260 Год назад +20

      I 100% agree. I bought and read the manga for the first time this year after being a fan for over 20 years. Gokus facial expression on that page blew me away.

    • @blueNyellow
      @blueNyellow Год назад +2

      Hollow? That's like saying shallow. It's weak and meaningless.

    • @lightspeed4615
      @lightspeed4615 Год назад +27

      @blueNyellow I mean it makes you feel hollow. Empty. And to a degree Friezas "death" here was meaningless. It didn't have to be this way. Goku's Victory here isn't triumphant. It's hollow and empty. It clearly isn't the way he wanted to win.

    • @blueNyellow
      @blueNyellow Год назад +10

      @@lightspeed4615 gotcha. I understand now.

  • @LemoneMan
    @LemoneMan Год назад +21

    No amount of time in another world should make you forget how important basics are... He literally doesnt even meditate anymore, he finds it "goofy" that vegeta was just "sitting around" like come on, how can you forget how important spirit and mind is if you were the one drilling it into everyone elses head?

    • @Mavuika_Gyaru
      @Mavuika_Gyaru Год назад

      Goku literally meditated before coming back to the living world 😅

    • @LemoneMan
      @LemoneMan Год назад

      @@Mavuika_Gyaru We are talking about super goku. Was I not clear?

    • @LemoneMan
      @LemoneMan Год назад

      @@Mavuika_Gyaru ^ genuine question btw.

  • @commiecomrade2644
    @commiecomrade2644 Год назад +80

    My take on the cell senzu was that Goku didnt want Cell to feel backed into a corner when Gohan finally let go. We saw the result of that kind of situation when cell self destructed. He wanted Cell to fell confident that he would win so that hopefully when Gohan snapped he didnt get mad and take his toys and go home so to speak.
    Given Goku's words to gohan about not backing cell into a corner we know this possibility was known to Goku.

    • @exaltedfalcheon1793
      @exaltedfalcheon1793 Год назад +5

      THANK YOU!

    • @lesvernornvienas8232
      @lesvernornvienas8232 Год назад +10

      i think part of it too is he wanted there to be no excuses. he wanted Gohan to surpass him and to be there to protect the people he cared about since he knew he wouldn't be here forever. But if gohan beat cell after his fight with goku gohan would probably think "I only beat him cause dad weakened him first" so by giving him the senzu he was removing all doubt and excuses for both gohan and cell that no gohan was truly stronger.

    • @exaltedfalcheon1793
      @exaltedfalcheon1793 Год назад +2

      @@lesvernornvienas8232 YES!

    • @NickFord92
      @NickFord92 7 месяцев назад +1

      @@lesvernornvienas8232 yeah exactly I don't see enough people talking about how Goku was actively looking towards Gohan to be his successor. He needed Gohan to be able to kill Cell at full power to assure him that Gohan was a worthy successor. We all see how that went down, and that leads into the Buu saga where Goku doesn't kill Buu immediately because he wants someone else to be able to do it, and eventually after he does kill Buu he wants Buu to be reincarnated so that he could be trained to be the next savior of earth for when Goku is gone. That's why he goes off to train Uub as soon as he can while leaving his family behind, to him securing the future of the earth is being the best parent he can be.

  • @kazeguy8869
    @kazeguy8869 Год назад +181

    Bro is back again for the smoke from the "You don't understand Goku" community

    • @sixfromtokyo
      @sixfromtokyo  Год назад +76

      Can't wait to hear from those guys

    • @panthekirb7561
      @panthekirb7561 Год назад +27

      They should rebrand to the "I don't understand Goku" community, or "I didn't understand Goku until now, sorry King" community.

    • @Skarnex1337
      @Skarnex1337 Год назад +5

      Anyone who fully understands goku is mentally broken and owns too many calculators.

    • @Whoisthatguy906
      @Whoisthatguy906 Год назад +18

      @@sixfromtokyo”DBS Goku is what Toriyama-sensei wanted the character to be like ☝️🤓”

    • @ashmonke6588
      @ashmonke6588 Год назад +7

      ⁠​⁠​⁠@@Whoisthatguy906You aren’t the person your father sensei wanted his son to be like 🤓☝️

  • @zouwu4487
    @zouwu4487 Год назад +40

    I think they call it flanderization.
    But it doesn't help that it's essentially the fandom writing the manga/anime.
    Your first video and this one are on point

  • @johnzahm193
    @johnzahm193 Год назад +18

    What makes goku a hero isn't his conviction to uphold justice and go out of his way to defend the weak, what makes him a hero is the fact that he helps the innocent against the villians if he happens to be passing by. He doesn't like it when people are treated badly, he's more of a passerby type of hero. A true hero doesn't always consider themselves to be one, it's just the results of their actions that define who they are. When it comes to the dub I would say that the og dragonball captured gokus character the best, a good natured man who enjoys the thrill of a challenge.

  • @5001Fergies
    @5001Fergies Год назад +86

    In terms of goku not being the hero, i feel like he’s got a pretty realistic position considering the situation. By the time of cell saga they were able to gather all the dragonballs in the span of a day, and since it was dende’s dragonballs they could just wish for all of the people who died to be brought back anytime there’s a fight. So while he isnt gonna put his life at risk to prevent collateral damage in a fight, he still has the morals to prefer people dont get killed as a result of his battles 😂

    • @jibril2473
      @jibril2473 Год назад

      90% of B

    • @ryszakowy
      @ryszakowy Год назад +24

      goku isn't a hero because he won't go actively "i will defend the justice and bring to responsibility all evil doers!"
      goku lives his life training in peace
      someone comes and blows a city up
      or aliens invade
      or ancient demon decides to gather earth's dragon balls because he couldn't find namek
      and then goku goes and fights
      first of all because he lives on this planet
      second beause it's just not right to kill innocent people
      goku is that one good guy with a gun in the middle of minneapolis riots

    • @emmarod8746
      @emmarod8746 Год назад +7

      Goku has actively been trying to be a legitimate hero since the Moro arc since he realized how his selfishness has had negative consequences.

    • @5001Fergies
      @5001Fergies Год назад

      @@emmarod8746 is that in the manga? Im not caught up to that yet but thats dope

    • @danielsepulveda5852
      @danielsepulveda5852 Год назад +9

      @@ryszakowy Goku IS a hero, he doesnt needs to wear a cape and use a nickname to fly around the world saving people to be a hero, he saves lots and lots of people since he was a kid, saved the world a few times, he is a hero, he doesnt need to be an avenger to be one.

  • @primesonic4459
    @primesonic4459 Год назад +32

    That face that goku makes after blasting Frieza is hands down my favourite pannel in all of dragon ball
    So much emotion from just 1 pannel
    Easily surpassess anything in Super

    • @fredv6237
      @fredv6237 9 месяцев назад

      Nope, Trunks roaring in the sky and going Super Saiyan after seing Gohan's wet corpse easily surpasses literally anything you say in your comment.
      "Hur dur dis smol scene better than entire X" gets very, very annoying mate. I don't know why people feel the need to say it.

    • @Lonewolfprime.
      @Lonewolfprime. 2 месяца назад

      ⁠@@fredv6237Did you not read? He said “anything in Super”. He wasn’t trashing Z, he was complimenting it.

    • @mohamedkhider6998
      @mohamedkhider6998 Месяц назад

      @@fredv6237
      Writing wise that goku scene was absolutely peak it was a crucial moment for goku’s character and growth and added a lot of depth to him
      It’s really better than the latter

  • @MarsCorporations
    @MarsCorporations Год назад +33

    I dont only miss old goku, I miss Dragonball. The story was never a strong point of the series but they just overdo it. Let's bring Frieza back a 3rd time with a new form. Here have some new Androids. Ah, and Cell needs a comeback too. And through the power of science, some random dude on earth can build Androids on par with a trillion times more powerful beings than the original cell. Ah, and Gohan is not relevant enough, lets just give him a billion times powerup out of nowhere. The Moro Arc was perfection against what comes after it...

    • @Mono_303
      @Mono_303 Год назад +3

      Yeah the power scaling got so crazy that once they wanted to finish the series they said “no, make up something new to make us more money”. That and how they made Goku more childish, funny, and dumb to relate more to the shonen audience demographic of teens.

    • @joeda900
      @joeda900 Год назад +4

      I honestly don't mind them reusing past plot points or past characters to be fair.
      But I would appreciate it further if they went an extra mile to tell more unique stories or explore other universes or flesh out other characters like in DBS: Super Heroes, that movie was pretty fun to watch.

    • @dususbakahyahskahwbwm9113
      @dususbakahyahskahwbwm9113 Год назад +1

      In your opinion, was a mere human capable of creating androids and cyborgs that surpassed the strength of the galactic emperor and the legendary Super Saiyan not overdoing it?

    • @fredv6237
      @fredv6237 9 месяцев назад

      You are forgetting that a weak scientist made Androids that are somehow stronger than the legendary Super Saiyan.
      If you want something to gripe about DBS, is probably the same thing you gripe about GT; they had some new things, but they either or not stick the landing.

    • @stephanos6128
      @stephanos6128 Месяц назад

      ​@@fredv6237im assuming they mean Gamma 1 & 2?? I havent seen the movie and don't really plan too, but if i remember correctly Gero had been literally spying on Goku and friends since the Piccolo Jr saga (or King Piccolo's? post Red Ribbon) and then 20 and 19 got their shit rocked cus they didn't expect Super Saiyans. Unless you mean why 18 and 17 are strong, Id assume for the same reasons, spying. This might be me mixing up TFS but doesnt Trunks also somehow effect the timeline and it made 17 and 18 stronger?
      like its wonky storytelling but the attempt at an organic reasoning is there.. and Super kind of just doesn't feel as organic imo, its *only* clunky.

  • @numberseven1358
    @numberseven1358 Год назад +82

    I don’t think it really matters how Toriyama ‘meant’ for Goku to be depicted. I think the version of Goku most people remember the most fondly is the version of Goku that is made up of ideas from not just Toriyama, but his editors too.
    Toriyama’s vision of Dragon Ball seemed to have been put on a pedestal for the most recent stuff, which is fine, but I do think that the input of his editors from back in the Z era was mostly beneficial to the series as a whole.

    • @123deserted
      @123deserted Год назад +8

      I agree, i like to think that goku, while not being selfless to begin with, turns into a responsible hero in the end. Goku knows his son is in danger, so he trains in a hellish manner where he knows what his defeat would mean, he beats frieza while still having fun fighting, but with all the right reasons without him deciding those reasons. He's a wise master of martial arts, and a hero of the people whom he cares about, for the cell games he acts selfish sometimes but always has his sights on cell, he makes a calculated guess about gohan's potential and gives cell some senzu, after dying to save earth, he decides to not come back because his enemies keep coming after him, and it works up to a point but he's never too far away to let any danger come too close to his loved ones as he's watching from above
      Goku started from slightly above a normal human and became a god, half because he loved fighting, and the other half because he had to step up when the need arose, and he never backed down, always delivered. He's dependable asf, a genuine hero/savior born from countless struggles with pure heart (even trying to give his enemies second chances).

    • @launcherx2044
      @launcherx2044 8 месяцев назад

      as much as people like to dunk on editors one should note that they are essential tard wranglers

  • @jcg7609
    @jcg7609 Год назад +85

    I'm so glad that this and your other video about this topic exist. I don't know when or how it happened, but Goku's character has become one of the most controversial parts of the series in recent years and people constantly refuse to read my arguments or go back and read the original manga and compare the original Goku to DBS Goku
    I mean of course they don't they're Dragon Ball fans and lack the ability to read.

    • @thedevilsleutice
      @thedevilsleutice Год назад +18

      GT is more consistent with Z. Than super is. Super being a prequel is a huge detriment for super. Cause it felt to regress him for no reason.

    • @danzeljohnson3341
      @danzeljohnson3341 Год назад +6

      It’s because goku is the series now. Him and vegeta are dragon ball super. It’s nothing else to focus on. People forget that krillin and gohan had more screen time between them than goku during the first 2 arcs of z. And I’m sure the original cell arc was would have featured krillin more.

    • @daizenmarcurio
      @daizenmarcurio Год назад +17

      @@thedevilsleutice GT was the natural progression you'd expect from these characters after 10 years.
      To give fairness to dbs, this isn't too long after Z but truthfully, it's pretty sad how they regressed the characters to tell the same story for the 3rd time smh. Vegeta regressed back to his cell saga self while Goku regressed to something that's unrecognizable, he wasn't even this care free and stupid in OG DB

    • @thedevilsleutice
      @thedevilsleutice Год назад +5

      @@daizenmarcurio GT Takes 5 years after the end of Z. The 10 year thing is a change the dub made by the way GT in Japanese is a different scrip fundamentally than the original Japanese . But yes other wise agree with you.

    • @danielsepulveda5852
      @danielsepulveda5852 Год назад +7

      @@daizenmarcurio The weirdes part is that Goku didnt even regressed to something, like youve said, not even OG DB Goku was this dumb almost braindead person, and he was just a weird kid who didnt even knew what a woman was, still he has more smart and mature times than DBS Goku, he didnt regressed to a former version, he just became another character, most of the times in DBS he is just anoiyng, he is beiyond stupid in DBS and people who says that he is the same are just blind or have never watched DBZ cuz the changes in his personality are as clear as clear can be, its impossible to not notice that.

  • @_WiZ420
    @_WiZ420 Год назад +143

    I think the biggest issue that people aren't taking into consideration when they defend the senzu bean situation with Moro is that *he did not need to be healed even if you spare him here*. He was damaged up a bit, but still capable of walking, talking, etc. It's really crazy that he felt the need to heal someone who was going to spend their days in prison, like it literally doesn't make sense. Ignore what you think about Goku, or the story itself. Why even heal him when he can be taken to the prison as is?
    I've been reflecting on this character for a while, and I have to say that while we have the slight differences in opinion, I'm still on the same page. Goku's character has been tarnished. DBS Super Hero is what really sold it for me. You either say he's stupid or that he has dementia (granted, he did hit his head as a kid).

    • @emperortoho
      @emperortoho Год назад +3

      goku knew he was stronger than moro and didn’t calculate for the arm with merus’s data because he didn’t see it
      still stupid but he had the ability to detain moro if that hadn’t been the case, moro couldn’t even hurt mui goku

    • @AstraFulminous
      @AstraFulminous Год назад +13

      Moro was asking for help. After his defeat. Goku wasn't going to be able to ignore that. Especially in an arc where Meerus just highlighted how Goku's mercy was a good thing. Moro wasn't Cell, Piccolo or Vegeta. He was like General White or Frieza instead. It was his responsibility to help. In addition to that unlike every other time where Goku actually really has given someone a sensu bean. He maintained the advantage well after the villain did the double cross. Moro broke his hand even attempting to do anything. The rest was just a matter of happenstance that neither Goku nor Moro knew could occur beforehand l.

    • @matti.8465
      @matti.8465 Год назад +28

      I think the scene would have worked better if Moro was at the verge of death, so Goku would have been saving his life in exhange for turning himself in.

    • @_WiZ420
      @_WiZ420 Год назад +3

      @@emperortoho That still isn’t anywhere near the point

    • @_WiZ420
      @_WiZ420 Год назад +10

      @@AstraFulminous Correct me if I’m wrong, but Goku needed the help of the energies of several other people including Uub in order to defeat Merus absorbed Moro, right? He did not maintain the advantage after giving him the senzu bean.
      But again, this is not the point. Send him to prison WITHOUT senzu beaning him. It’s that simple. You’re not doing anything different. Why is it so hard to understand that regardless of all the character defense, this was a stupid decision?

  • @mousie508
    @mousie508 Год назад +28

    Super Goku gets trashed bc as fans who’ve watched him grow we saw him regress💀 it was like a slap in the face tbh

    • @primalgod7952
      @primalgod7952 Год назад

      Regress how

    • @_Mikeebeed_
      @_Mikeebeed_ Год назад

      @@primalgod7952legit question? Or a rhetorical one with an excuse for how we literally watched and can tell he regressed?

    • @primalgod7952
      @primalgod7952 Год назад

      @@_Mikeebeed_ In what way shape or form you seeing something doesn’t mean it’s true have your own thoughts and opinions on things

    • @primalgod7952
      @primalgod7952 Год назад

      @@_Mikeebeed_ your saying he regressed but don’t explain how and when you do it’s nonsense so let’s here it how did he regress

    • @kubanrhs1310
      @kubanrhs1310 8 месяцев назад

      ​@@primalgod7952watch the video🤦‍♂️

  • @proxy6330
    @proxy6330 Год назад +36

    i think the weird thing to do when you want your main character to be a nuanced neutral character is to give him the kinto un that can only be ridden by those that are pure of heart. you are immediately led to believe goku is a good person no matter what because of it, and a lot of it can be spun to later iterations of him

    • @crimsoncross8823
      @crimsoncross8823 Год назад +14

      Or you show him getting hit with and surviving the devilmite beam, which is supposed to take the evil in your heart and make it explode. It makes people think that since this guy has no evil in his heart, he must be a good guy….

    • @Chris_HT
      @Chris_HT Год назад

      @@crimsoncross8823actually, the beam itself doesnt affect Zamasu/Goku Black, since their hearts are pure, but their actions and intentions are what they believe is the right thing, they dont see themselves as evil, they see their actions as justified, so you can still be a "evil person" with a pure heart.

    • @crimsoncross8823
      @crimsoncross8823 11 месяцев назад +2

      @@crimsonoutdoorsco.9640 I mean what would the extra context be then? Cuz I have heard it argued that Goku doesn’t care about good and evil when that’s seemingly not true (he notes that the Earth has had it’s fair share of bad guys in the past and says that broly isn’t one of them, displaying a knowledge of good and evil in the broly movie).

    • @theccarbiter
      @theccarbiter 8 месяцев назад +1

      @@Chris_HT thats just headcanon, the beam hasnt been used on him anywhere in canon so theres no way to tell, the tea in that arc shows if the hearts intentions and thoughts are pure and not clouded with doubt, not if they are good or evil which the beam does determine along with nimbus

  • @myworstenemy7966
    @myworstenemy7966 Год назад +14

    Personally, I think Goku giving Cell the senzu was the right call. He wasn't being careless. Goku knew that he didn't stand a chance, and that Gohan did; provided he could trick Cell into not taking Gohan seriously. Cell originally had no interest in fighting Gohan, so I think he would have just killed Gohan on the spot so he could get back to the main event. The senzu made Cell overconfident and more willing to toy with Gohan long enough for him to unlock super saiyan 2. Of course, It was a calculated risk missing a key variable; being Gohan not enjoying fighting. But how was Goku supposed to know about that?
    Chi Chi never allowed Goku to attempt to train him, then after Goku's revived; he sees Gohan on a battlefield. When Goku told Gohan to go home where he'd be safe, Gohan just returned to the fight. After recovering from nearly being killed by Vegeta, Goku finds Gohan in another battle. To top it off, Future Trunks tells Goku about Gohan being the one to train him. The lack of context behind all of Gohan's involvement was likely a major contributor to this misunderstanding, and his desire to help prepare for the artificial humans and Cell didn't help. Once Goku learned that Gohan was in danger and only fighting because he felt pressured into doing it; he immediately tried to intervene and get Gohan back to relative safety.

    • @K1ngboat
      @K1ngboat 11 месяцев назад +1

      His mistake was not preparing Gohan for the task like he did Goten and Trunks. He assumed he was a warrior like him and would finish cell off as soon as he was given the chance but that isnt the case and Gohan becomes over confident and toys with cell because he's fighting off his emotion. Because of this the entire world nearly pays the price as Goku has to sacrifice himself to atone for his mistake.

  • @LygarZeroX
    @LygarZeroX 11 месяцев назад +6

    toriyama is accurate in that goku is not a 'good' guy. he is pure of heart but goku doesn't view himself as a 'good' guy. he is not self righteous. a lot of self righteous 'good' guys end up doing bad things because the ends justify the means. look at zamasu. he viewed himself as the ultimate good guy but was really just a racist that was committing genocide against all mortals.

  • @JonnyM2C
    @JonnyM2C Год назад +16

    I do feel as well that Toriyama didn't capture what he wanted for Goku. I think Goku is more heroic than what Toriyama intended.
    This doesn't mean he is Superman, but superheroes overall aren't exactly like Superman. However, because they care about the world and others still, it doesn't take away that they are heroes.
    I agree with others who mentioned the reason why Super Goku is different from Z Goku is that - Super Goku was the view Toriyama really wanted for Goku.
    Within the Namek saga, when he approaches Freeza, an important aspect is that he doesn't know all the people of Namek or Saiyans. However, Goku is still willing to fight for them and wanted Freeza to pay because of his cruelty. He cares about people he didn't even know. This even shows how Goku believes in justice.
    In the same arc, while fighting Freeza, he does show to fight for the universe. He says "But I have to defeat Freeza now, while I still can... or the entire universe will be in danger"
    In the Boo saga, while fighting kid Boo he says "I better go all out if I want to stand a chance. The whole universe is at stake here!!"
    In the series, even when Goku brings up the world, he isn't just focusing on "his family" or "his friends," he wants to save everyone in the world.
    I feel this is a reason why many feel disconnected from Super Goku. When you compare him to Z Goku, both of them have different ideologies.
    Not saying that Super Goku doesn't want to save his friends and others, but it is clear that most of the time he focuses on fighting a strong person-even when things are dire.
    Z Goku does want to fight others who are strong, but when they are evil and set on destroying the world, his entire focus will be to save the world.

    • @weridplusho
      @weridplusho Год назад +2

      I think this comment explains it best. It does appear that kid Goku was Toriyama's vision of the character, but I don't think Toriyama knew how to translate that into his adult self (or his editors had him tweak things.)
      Perhaps that may be why Super Goku seems less mature - to capture that vision that was in kid Goku but lost after the time skip.

    • @stephanos6128
      @stephanos6128 Месяц назад

      ​@@weridplusho explains Daima too and what Toriyama might've meant by "back to his roots" he wants kid goku again. explains Goten a little too but he just forgot about him...
      Issue is Daima *still* takes palce after the Buu saga... so after Toriyama still has written the "Old version of Goku". So even Daima mighf have this issue.
      Kills me tho... like simply just set Daima in an earlier era there's so many timeskips in DB the 10 year skip is def is the longest to work between, but they dragged 48minutes into 30 episodes with the TOP, and Goku starts his journey at 11, you can literally write the first 6 years of his life definitely being that egotistical, lil punk we all know and love, and his twacher can be Grandpa Gohan. it's cute and endearing when a kids acts like a kid, it's different with an adult, an adult that expierenced the same mess Goku expierenced.

  • @alphawolf7417
    @alphawolf7417 8 месяцев назад +2

    This also fits with GT. Goku in GT will often try to talk his opponent out of a fight to the death, but if they don't take the offer, or clearly won't change, he will end them.

  • @HomeNuke
    @HomeNuke Год назад +7

    Just wanted to stop and appreciate how high quality the scans/manga panels in your videos are.

  • @unclephillymya
    @unclephillymya Год назад +28

    Another goated Goku video from Wix himself 🔥

  • @oshkeet
    @oshkeet Год назад +20

    3:21 I actually like the comment about "poison". Goku doesn't necessarily overcome his saiyan instincts (which have gotten less vicious in their depiction over time, but are still pretty rough) but instead channels them into doing productive things. Same with generally more 'peaceful' Saiyans like Gohan and Trunks, who have episodes they lose control possibly BECAUSE they don't train as much as Goku; It's interesting to think that while Goku probably doesn't do martial arts to specifically control his saiyan instincts, it might be a happy byproduct.
    Also I think Goku as the Fool, not necessarily stupid or superheroic but just living in the moment of his own positivity, is the best depiction of him.

  • @ronwaldoreyes2095
    @ronwaldoreyes2095 Год назад +8

    The fact Goku gave Moro a Senzu Bean so he could full heal, just to break this man’s arm with his damn pecs right after is literally another tier of disrespect.

    • @closet__optimist
      @closet__optimist 8 месяцев назад +1

      The only part of that that I find amusing lmao

  • @cKarmaRL
    @cKarmaRL Год назад +18

    I think what I love most about Six is that he’s petty enough to make a whole other video to prove what was a fact and break it down to the casuals lol.

    • @MajinUltraEgo
      @MajinUltraEgo 5 месяцев назад

      Z Goku:
      Let go of Raditz tail when he's already familiar with people duping him to save their skins (Mercenary Tao)
      Thought Bubbles was King Kai despite being given clear instructions of who King Kai is
      Thought it was night time in outer space
      Needs Piccolo to tell him to remember what Trunks said
      Didn't take the heart virus medicine when his symptoms started showing and told no one
      Gives a Senzu Bean to Cell
      Didn't realize Gohan didn't like fighting and needs Piccolo to tell him this
      Had to ask Gohan whether Videl was a girl or not
      Didn't kill Majin Buu when he later states he could have
      Throws the Potara at Gohan instead of just teleporting and handing it to him, as he does with Vegeta
      Crushes and uses the Potara earrings when Kabito Kai provies replacements. He later regrets this and says Potara would have finished Buu
      Either you didn't watch DBZ or you have an obvious double standard and that's sad.

    • @cKarmaRL
      @cKarmaRL 5 месяцев назад

      Another casual who never read the manga and only watched second rate edited anime made and directed by others….. I swear they just prove your point for you.

    • @84warhead
      @84warhead 4 месяца назад

      ​@@cKarmaRLover half of those are in the manga you dork.

    • @scifinerd17
      @scifinerd17 24 дня назад

      @@MajinUltraEgoyou need to go outside more loser

  • @badassproductions4734
    @badassproductions4734 Год назад +71

    The cognitive dissonance I experienced when watching dbz in comparison to hearing about goku from the fans was crazy. Thank you for really making me a db fan six

  • @cinemamadness6920
    @cinemamadness6920 Год назад +21

    "Goku was meant to be childish!"
    Yeah! When he was a child! He's an adult man now and we have literally seen his progression in DBZ and now his obvious regression in Super.
    "Only in the English dub is Goku a superhero" Time and time again Goku would put the well-being of Earth and his friends before himself or his desires. People say Vegeta was bad for letting Cell become perfect but Super Goku DEFINITELY would have done the same thing. Super Goku is basically the cause of everything bad happening or escalating to dire situations in Super because he is a retard now.

    • @trollking6315
      @trollking6315 8 месяцев назад +1

      Some degree of reduction of character was done there but dont try to pretend that he didnt have stupid moments in Z.
      The senzu on cell is still stupid, the wish to revive a being of pure evil in kid buu is stupid, and more. And the R word, really? Holy bigotry filled ableism batman, goku has always been an idiot. He literally hit his head as an infant. That was considered a major turning point on how he didnt turn out like his brother or other saiyan kin.
      Goku is far from a superman clone or superhero in Z. He was a flawed person in there too. They just translated it differently. Super goku and z goku both did dipshit things, but they only elevated it in super because super is more geared to kids than z was.
      Next time you try to make a point, try not to be such a bigoted dickhead about it you sack of crap.
      Notifications are off, good luck replying

    • @MajinUltraEgo
      @MajinUltraEgo 5 месяцев назад

      Z Goku:
      Let go of Raditz tail when he's already familiar with people duping him to save their skins (Mercenary Tao)
      Thought Bubbles was King Kai despite being given clear instructions of who King Kai is
      Thought it was night time in outer space
      Needs Piccolo to tell him to remember what Trunks said
      Didn't take the heart virus medicine when his symptoms started showing and told no one
      Gives a Senzu Bean to Cell
      Didn't realize Gohan didn't like fighting and needs Piccolo to tell him this
      Had to ask Gohan whether Videl was a girl or not
      Didn't kill Majin Buu when he later states he could have
      Throws the Potara at Gohan instead of just teleporting and handing it to him, as he does with Vegeta
      Crushes and uses the Potara earrings when Kabito Kai provies replacements. He later regrets this and says Potara would have finished Buu
      Either you didn't watch DBZ or you have an obvious double standard and that's sad.

  • @AndyNocturne
    @AndyNocturne Год назад +9

    Something that's not entirely uncommon among writers and what I feel like Toriyami is struggling with here with Goku is passion for the character and belief in their persona. It's as if Goku has broken the 4th wall and stolen Toriyama's heart. He may have wanted Goku to not necessarily be the stereotypical "good guy", but he can't bring himself to make Goku inherently evil either. As such, all expectations don't get met on either end. But at the end of the day, everybody loves Goku

  • @nicoduran98
    @nicoduran98 Год назад +71

    Totally agree. Since the black arc it was clear in my head that super was irredimible and was only going to get worse and worse; and sadly I’ve been right ever since. That’s why right there i just stop caring about the future of the franchise, and i was just glad DBZ is always gonna be there and being untouchable.

    • @primesonic4459
      @primesonic4459 Год назад +10

      Seeing future Trunks loose EVERYTHING (except future Mai) is a hard neck snapping whiplash, especially compared to Gokus pretty much non-existant permanent consequences.
      The funnier thing is that they didn't even BOTHER to try to revive the future universes with the dragonball because they wanted future Zeno to stay in the present

    • @CookieFiend519
      @CookieFiend519 Год назад +1

      What are your thoughts on the Buu Saga?

    • @albertthepeacock8020
      @albertthepeacock8020 Год назад +8

      It's really interesting that you bought up DBS being irredeemable when your pfp is SS4 when Goku is at is mentally best never letting his love for fighting outweigh the safety of others but still sees the good in others when he befriended Fire Shenron. If anything DBGT manages to progress Goku as a character and it really hurts that no one talks about it.

    • @binaryboopsva
      @binaryboopsva Год назад +3

      I still think the Moro arc was super good. It's like UI reverted him back and he wanted to try fix things he couldn't with Frieza since Moro couldn't hurt him.
      Instead of the value of life only, this time it was also the value of not relying on cheap tricks and magic.
      It also contrasted Vegeta very well since they both handled it completely differently despite both being very similair.

    • @willdiesel8431
      @willdiesel8431 Год назад +1

      ​@@albertthepeacock8020upload a video about it. It's never talked about because GT is quite possibly the most Goku centric set of arcs. So he would be the only one to progress.

  • @yungblade7
    @yungblade7 3 месяца назад +2

    Goku knocking Geros hat off is peak Goku.

  • @gabethebabe3337
    @gabethebabe3337 Год назад +3

    I miss how wise Goku felt during the Piccolo Jr. saga. He was serious, but not in the same way he was when he got serious in Z. He felt more like a master martial artist in that saga than he even did while training Gohan. He was able to think about consequences before things happened, and was even mentally and emotionally mature enough to understand why Chi-Chi was upset at the tournament. That's how I wish he was during Z and a better version of Super/GT (both are ass, but imagine if they were both rebooted as one new series with all the best elements carefully planned out).

  • @MrSunglxzz
    @MrSunglxzz 8 месяцев назад +2

    there was one moment in DBS in which Goku was his old DBZ self. you remember the moment when he wanted to talk with Zeno about the tournament and beerus suddenly threatened him? the entire tone of the scene shifted in an instant, the music turned serious, Goku's face expression and way of talking was his old DBZ self.
    it resolved in Goku tricking beerus which is also unlike super Goku too.
    this scene was, for just a little conversation, a lot more serious and suspenseful than anything else in super.

  • @GeteMachine
    @GeteMachine Год назад +3

    On the Buu topic, actually I think Goku wanted him to reincarnate as a good guy because he enjoyed the challenge but also because he recognized that Fat Buu was a good character because of Mr. Satan. He still killed Kid Buu but he wanted to give Buu another chance, but AFTER they killed off his evil side.

  • @joshtheryuk
    @joshtheryuk Год назад +5

    I always thought Goku gave the Senzu to Cell so Gohan could humiliate Cell while he was at Full Power.
    It was just a way of showing off, like "My son is so powerful, even after a full heal you stand no chance!"

    • @Mavuika_Gyaru
      @Mavuika_Gyaru Год назад

      Facts

    • @Chris_HT
      @Chris_HT Год назад

      Add onto that, Goku isnt dumb either, he knew that if Cell got a full heal he would be cocky and confident enough he wouldnt lose to someone like Gohan, allowing him to transform.

  • @bluecheckmiya
    @bluecheckmiya Год назад +6

    But I don’t think Toriyama failed. Goku protects the Earth because he’s from there and loves the Earth. His friends and family is there. He’s always stopped the bad guys because they were a hinderance to his goals. And when he was commissioned by someone else to stop a bad guy, he took the “job” because he knew there were strong. He never says “oh he’s a killer? It’s my duty to stop this evil doer!” He always says it sounds fun and he can push himself. That was clear throughout the series to me

    • @bluecheckmiya
      @bluecheckmiya Год назад +1

      Like you guys tell me, who did Goku confront that wasn’t directly involved in getting in the way of what HE wanted to do, or was hurting someone close to him

    • @primesonic4459
      @primesonic4459 Год назад +13

      But is he the guy who'll just walk away if he sees a killer kill someone innocent and cruelly ?
      Sure I agree that he'll not go out if his way yo hunt down every killer and stop them but will he ignore the ones that coincidently happens in front of him?

    • @Lowclasswarrior778
      @Lowclasswarrior778 12 часов назад

      Sorry but that’s not true goku vowed to destroy Frieza in the name of all the innocents he’s killed and also said that if he doesn’t at least try to kill Frieza with the spirit bomb the entire UNIVERSE will be in danger

  • @comanchelove5633
    @comanchelove5633 Год назад +2

    The fact that you have to explain this again is q bit ridiculous to me because i think you were pretty clear in the first video. But i guess some people only hear what they want to hear. Keep up the good work these video essays are really good.

  • @NebulosDragon
    @NebulosDragon Год назад +4

    He was spittin but don't let that distract you from the fact that this man said naruto wouldnt be able to use sage mode without kurama

  • @Code-.
    @Code-. Год назад +12

    Spit about our king Goku🎉

    • @sixfromtokyo
      @sixfromtokyo  Год назад +7

      ppl sayin Z Goku and super Goku are the same are slandering more than me for sure lmao

    • @ferrucciocaracciuolo8139
      @ferrucciocaracciuolo8139 Год назад

      ​@@sixfromtokyoThe only Goku I can accept after Z is The GT one.

    • @primalgod7952
      @primalgod7952 Год назад +1

      @@sixfromtokyoif you actually think that then there’s no hope for you

    • @MajinUltraEgo
      @MajinUltraEgo 5 месяцев назад

      ​@@ferrucciocaracciuolo8139What about when GT Goku begged Myuu to activate Baby, what about Goku taking a bubble bath in hell messing around while the earth was being taken over by ressurected villains, why was he overreacting because he had to sit in a hospital room, why is he stealing food from the villagers on other planet's? Why is he constantly shooting energy blast at 17 knowing he's absorbing it? GT Goku is trash 👎

  • @Wavedashnoir
    @Wavedashnoir Год назад +6

    Six drops a video imma have to watch🤷🏿‍♂️

  • @ozioni2553
    @ozioni2553 Год назад +1

    Omg, a dragonball fan with literary comprehension! Really good video!

  • @WillofD18
    @WillofD18 Год назад +3

    keep spittin'. I've been watchin DB since 94 and readin since ~09, if mfs think Super Goku(and alot of the cast for the matter) hasn't regressed as a character and isn't a shell of himself, you don't pay attention. Goku in Super is like if you just look at his character at the MOST surface level possible! Funny enough to say but if you want a return to form for his character go watch GT

  • @crimsoncross8823
    @crimsoncross8823 Год назад +2

    5:30 😂lol six is based af. I agree, just because toriyama wanted to show Goku a certain way does not mean he succeeded in doing so. How many times do we see Goku doing good things for the sake of it? Like giving up his grandpas dragon ball so Upa(?)s father can come back to life after the Tao fight? Ya know?

  • @sonnywoods6846
    @sonnywoods6846 Год назад +18

    I am starting to think that the way Goku is portrayed in the Manga is due to Akira Toriyama's Editor. Just like with George Lucas and the original Trilogy when he allowed other people to direct the movies, I think the Dragon Ball Editor Kept Akira Toriyama in check. The editor is the reason Goku is the way he is in the Original Manga, but in the Super Anime, the Editor is not around to keep AT and the anime writers in check. This why Goku is so different in Super

    • @sigiligus
      @sigiligus Год назад +11

      Yeah, that’s more common than people think. Creatives tend to need exogenous boundaries or else they just get carried away with their ideas. It’s all well and good if someone wants to express themselves, but there’s not much point in publishing art that isn’t tailored to provide a cohesive and focused experience for the people consuming the art. Toriyama in particular isn’t really a shounen battle manga writer, he’s a gag manga writer. He was already famous for writing comedy manga when he started writing Dragon Ball, and you can tell over time that DB gets more and more of a serious tone as the expectations for the series shifted. By the time he got to the Buu arc, he was mostly free to do what he wanted, and so that arc became full of good ideas that go nowhere and a lot of slapstick in serious situations.

    • @muffinfighter3680
      @muffinfighter3680 Год назад +7

      Very true. I don't think Goku would have ever matured the way he did in DBZ if Toriyama had had full control over the manga.

    • @cttommy73
      @cttommy73 Год назад

      Totally agreed. The kind of difference between Goku now and during the original DB and GT run is so massive, they are basically different characters.

    • @recycledwaste8737
      @recycledwaste8737 Год назад +1

      ​@KereTista-km9ckI hate to be the one to tell you this, but DBZ was also a kid's show.

    • @lordjugga168
      @lordjugga168 Год назад +1

      The stuff about George Lucas and his editors saving his films is a myth. First because everything is "saved in the edit". That's how you finish the project 😂. And second, George oversaw all the edits. He also was the one who decided to cut the stuff that didn't work. I don't blame you cause I'm sure you're not trying to intentionally revise history. It's a common narrative that gets pushed. I had even believed it for a bit until I looked more into it

  • @Gokulosestoavirus
    @Gokulosestoavirus Год назад +9

    Goku from the Cell arc was the best version of Goku.
    He had fears, he was afraid to die, he question his own abilities and knew he was limited. A more human Goku was amazing touch with the character. Goku refusing to stop Buu will forever be a stain for me. I get his mindset, but Goku punching Gero to stop going on a mass killing spree, to Goku simply saying “nope, don’t need to stop it because it’s not my place.”
    That forever changed my perspective on the character. Akira did his job very well with getting to question Goku morals after Buu well at least for me.

    • @HackedEgg
      @HackedEgg Год назад +11

      I thought of it as like pushing a baby bird out the nest so it can fly. It seems cruel, but it works. Goku was basically letting the z fighters be the heroes, since he was dead and he couldn't just show up anytime the earth was in trouble, he needed to know that earth had its own heroes.

    • @Chris_HT
      @Chris_HT Год назад

      I kinda like the Moro arc because it shows a better goku than the Super Anime did☠️ the recent arcs in the manga seem redeeming

  • @buttermanaws4693
    @buttermanaws4693 Год назад +9

    Honestly the fact we are even still talking about the Moro senzu bean incident sould just tell you how little scene it makes.
    And to my understanding the only reason why it happened from a meta narrative is so they could hint at Uub (and continue the cell similarities) since I think they had no idea how to naturally introduce him as they are still trying to reach the same end of Z from super.

    • @Gokulosestoavirus
      @Gokulosestoavirus Год назад +1

      They introduce Uub during the tournament of power. Goku at first questions whenever he should teach Uub.

  • @TheEternalFlame57
    @TheEternalFlame57 Год назад +19

    Man I miss Goku

    • @sixfromtokyo
      @sixfromtokyo  Год назад +12

      What u mean bro? He's the same? Apparently we all just watched different versions of DB

    • @TheEternalFlame57
      @TheEternalFlame57 Год назад +3

      @@sixfromtokyoI mean Goku from dragon call, not dragon ball, dragon ball is just a rip off who used kid Goku and somehow made it worse

    • @forcecalibration924
      @forcecalibration924 Год назад +1

      Me to brother.

  • @thedevilsleutice
    @thedevilsleutice Год назад +5

    Six. I didn’t forget Goku. It’s why as much as I like super I will crap on it’s interpretation of Goku. Because of it taking place before for the End of Z the story felt it had to regress Gokus maturity, despite the fact that Goku had this maturity, and always fought on the behalf of others by the time he beat mercenary Tao. It’s why GT despite its flaws kept him on track of his dragon ball z self, even if he was a child. And part of that is it wasn’t trying to be a prequel for a 10 year timeskip.

  • @morsayxd4441
    @morsayxd4441 Год назад +1

    it is quite simple , goku is just a normal guy like us who like to fight , not a super hero but if he see someone's life being threaten , he won stay indifferent , he will help cause he knows that is the right thing to do and he can , like any normal person with a sense of moral

  • @Nitro.Z74
    @Nitro.Z74 9 месяцев назад +1

    Being dead for 7 years is not a dead, its sleeping bruh

  • @afroanime4589
    @afroanime4589 Год назад +2

    I hate how everyone in the db community defends the argument of what toriyama originally wanted goku to be. He also wanted android 19 and 20 to be the big bad of the android saga. He also wantes to end the series after frieza saga. He also wanted vegito blue to not be a thing. He also wanted jiren to not be as strong as he is.

    • @dususbakahyahskahwbwm9113
      @dususbakahyahskahwbwm9113 Год назад +1

      He never said he wanted the series to end after Freeza, that is a myth in the community

    • @afroanime4589
      @afroanime4589 Год назад

      @@dususbakahyahskahwbwm9113 its quite evident he did goku clearly dies on namek next we see him get away?

  • @FriendlyDarkwraith
    @FriendlyDarkwraith Год назад +12

    With regard to the Moro being given a senzu ordeal, I saw a counter-argument that states it's fine for Goku to give Moro a senzu bean, since he immediately breaks his arm on UI Goku's chest the moment he tries to attack him, which means that Goku knew that Moro stood no chance against him anymore, and was basically no longer a threat. But you bring up an even better point: why give Moro a senzu in the first place? The fight was over, he was already beaten, and his injuries basically amounted to some bruises, a broken horn, a cracked forehead jewel thingy and a missing hand. The simple answer is that the author wanted the fight to continue and for Moro to get UI, so he got the outcome he wanted by contriving Goku into acting like an idiot for no good reason. Goku giving Cell the senzu bean was an honest mistake (and there might be an argument to be made that it was actually the right course of action), born out of him misunderstanding his son's nature, but there's no such justification for what Goku did with Moro.

    • @baked7423
      @baked7423 Год назад +2

      im guessing toyotaro wanted a physical representation of goku's mindset at the time but having moro brink of death would have been better. Or he could have just had moro getting merus's data heal him. Maybe he wanted the cool ass chest breaking moro's hand (?) but then u could do something like moro tries to tag him one last time while he and jaco are talking

    • @jinmori8255
      @jinmori8255 Год назад

      Moro was so weak before goku giving him a sensu bean, he couldn't even removed the small boulder that fell on him. So how's jaco gonna take him on prison when he couldn't even barely move?

    • @FriendlyDarkwraith
      @FriendlyDarkwraith Год назад +1

      @@jinmori8255 Probably by picking him up and taking him there.

    • @baked7423
      @baked7423 Год назад

      @@jinmori8255 make him take not as much damage then

    • @jinmori8255
      @jinmori8255 Год назад

      @@FriendlyDarkwraith Moro is too big for jaco to carry

  • @mainboysmusic6985
    @mainboysmusic6985 Год назад +3

    It sounds like Toriyama's depiction of Goku was supposed to be more like Luffy from One Piece. Luffy fights because he loves to fight. He doesn't usually care for any possible casualties that he would be involved with UNLESS it puts those he cares about in severe danger. Those people are usually his friends who can't handle themselves, as well as people he respects and their valued property and/or citizens... and also those who promised him food. If any of these people need his help because of something tragic, he won't comfort them, and instead advances to resolve the issue with his fists. I think the major issue between Luffy and Goku's situation in regards to the way Toriyama wanted Goku to be depicted is, the power. Luffy can achieve this stuff without having to worry about him or his opponent tearing the whole island or country anew because their powers don't usually impact a huge area at a destructive level. The goals of Toriyama's depiction can be achieved way easier this way.
    However, Toriyama kind of wrote himself into a wall when it comes to his depiction of Goku. His characters powers are far too immense to be used around society, and so he has Goku lead the villains away from civilization to a barren wasteland, 19 and 20 being prime examples of this. Even with Goku wanting to stay dead after Cell, while I loved that so much, it doesn't support his depiction, because Goku is being deprived of his passion to fight for the sake of humanity (and this is before he knew he'd be able to satisfy his passion in the afterlife). Then the Buu saga itself opened up a lot of cans where Goku's often shown being heroic over his passion. Dragon Ball Super gives Goku the chance to show less heroicness because he often fights in worlds where he doesn't need to worry about causalities, and even then, Goku's actions line up more with Toriyama's depiction just in general, such as when he fought Beerus in the city, but it's too late now. We've gone through Dragon Ball and Z where we see Goku develop into a heroic warrior, and he's at fault for writing him in the way he didn't want to write him. To suddenly change his character completely in the sequel series to fit your depiction will result in an inconsistency that's so big, it makes all of Z feel irrelevant. There's nothing else to say but, Toriyama messed up. He failed to write Goku in the way he depicted him. To us, the fans, Z Goku is beloved to us while Super Goku is somebody entirely different. DBZ is our Goku and DBS is Toriyama's Goku.

  • @goodmusicofthegoodkind
    @goodmusicofthegoodkind Год назад +4

    Six is my favorite body pillow RUclipsr

  • @mikael557
    @mikael557 Год назад +6

    Wow knowing the specific manga details of how Goku was really feeling at the end of the Frieza fight (trembling w/ sad face) made me appreciate that part of the story a lot more. Knowing that bit of info also makes it more consistent for me story-wise, that Frieza was still able continue living even after being blasted by Goku. The best part of this is we still get to see Goku being true to his nature, and Frieza gets to live a little longer only to get annihilated by Super Saiyan AGAIN!

  • @SuperStationCr1
    @SuperStationCr1 Год назад +4

    Idk if this is just me but I feel like the Super manga is more closer in feel to DBZ than the Super anime ever was especially with how they handle characters

  • @SpammytheHedgehog
    @SpammytheHedgehog Год назад +15

    I wish Goku was more serious in Super. Like when he fought Goku on Namek.

    • @jibril2473
      @jibril2473 Год назад

      ?

    • @ryszakowy
      @ryszakowy Год назад +7

      goku fought goku on namek?
      damn this xenoverse twisted timelines

    • @benjamingutierrez2191
      @benjamingutierrez2191 Год назад +2

      @@ryszakowyyeah bro, how you think he got stronger on the way there by himself?

    • @emmarod8746
      @emmarod8746 Год назад +1

      In like Xenoverse or Heroes?

  • @teneleven2818
    @teneleven2818 Год назад +2

    The pure of heart needed for riding the nimbus showed it being the good pure of heart not the single minded purpose type. So Toriyama messed up in the very beginning of the series.

  • @jamiemcneil9682
    @jamiemcneil9682 Год назад +2

    Thank you. I think u have a good understanding of Goku's character. I still dislike Goku giving Moro a senzu.

  • @bleedingedge9045
    @bleedingedge9045 Год назад +1

    Another detailed and goated video from Six

  • @baked7423
    @baked7423 Год назад +1

    15:40 also to add to ur point there, while goku chose a fair fight over the safety of the universe, it was also a misguided choice in that goku & vegeta both underestimated buu and later on admits they should have fused. So if he knew how strong Kid buu really was, he might have opted to fuse with vegeta or fight 2v1

  • @mowpa621
    @mowpa621 11 месяцев назад +1

    I feel this. Essentially DB Super has all the necessary key elements like forgiving the opponent, transformations and.. wholesome scenes.
    But everything feels just so empty. Like the path to a transformation is bs - Looking at DB Super Super Hero.
    Vegeta being gangsta but wearing a pink tutu (that almost killed Super for me in an instant)
    And then Goku... holy hell I think they just got rid of serious Goku so Ultra Instinct Goku has a right to exist
    I had high hopes in the last movie. But sadly Cell was a braindead Godzilla

  • @atari_hmb
    @atari_hmb 8 месяцев назад +1

    I agree, even in Super the Goku not kissing chi chi is wrong because Daizenshuu 5 page 60 part 2 of the TV guide- LITERALLY states he kissed chi chi- not chichi kiss Goku; no it says HE KISSED chichi- It read: "悟空はしばらく別れ てしまうチチにキスを・・・。" "Goku kisses chichi, who he is leaving for a while."
    but Super forgot about that.
    Goku also went on a picnic and was driving too- he was far more mature in Z- super seemed to exaggerate it too much. So well done Six

  • @MysticMylesZ
    @MysticMylesZ Год назад

    0:22 that's a fire start.
    I do remember the dog mayor remembering him, but that might be filler.

  • @xman2oo3
    @xman2oo3 Год назад +2

    It's been a minute since i read the moro stuff, so forgive my monke brain if i misremember things. But a possible explanation for the senzu, not saying id agree, could be that at the time it was kiiinda like a cell situation where goku knew full well thag moro legit just... couldn't win, cause moro tried all the dirty tricks he had and Goku didnt get hit once in the entire thing before that. The main difference being this time goku knew the person in charge of taking down moro was willing to do it if things came to that because Goku himself was doing it.
    You could say goku thought that, since he did win fair and square, he figured moro would also have to see that and as Goku had stopped all prior attempts to eat the world during the skirmish goku figured his overwhelming power would force moro to understand his options were: die or face his time in prison.
    Based on what he says in the small time where he leaves UI in the middle of the fight he seems like he kinda wants to be proven wrong that some people just have to die, that even people like moro can be forced to see reason, goku was just wrong.
    Least, thats the best argument i can think of off the top of my head, so... prolly even not that good, hah. Personally i think it's kiiinda just seems like more super wheele spinning but part of me hopes theres something im just nor seeing.

  • @Huntanor
    @Huntanor Год назад +1

    It's a basic fact of fiction that the author's idea almost never makes it to the page on an ideal for.
    The character he wanted to write is harder to make interesting. In reality, if he wanted Goku to be a person who just wanted a stronger challenge all the time he should have made him fight both villans and heros because that how that works. Like he goes to Namak Frieza's nemesis Alomstfreza is their and asks Goku to team up and Goku insist instead on fighting him even if I makes stopping Freza impossible.
    The reason Goku became a hero is that not trying to help people and not having a code would make him a villan at least by allowing evil to happen and that not what he intended either.

  • @britishmushroom
    @britishmushroom 6 месяцев назад

    I miss old Goku too, I literally was 2 when my sister would put Z on to put me to sleep so Goku is a special character to me and it actually physically hurts seeing what they are doing to him. I never saw the manga only but 2 volumes but I plan on getting it to relive the joy of his story. I’m never getting super tho, I’d rather throw it into the sun then buy it. 😂

  • @markbrown4597
    @markbrown4597 Год назад

    he as initially willing to spare mercenary Tao too!

  • @moosen135
    @moosen135 Год назад +2

    Goku is like a cat playing with its food.

  • @slaterock4612
    @slaterock4612 7 месяцев назад

    Another thing is the Majin Buu saga, Vegeta becoming a Majin and vaporized an enormous amount of people to egg Goku on to fight him. Goku, angry at Vegeta, immediately powers up to Super Saiyan ready to accept the challenge. What was crazy about Goku here is the fact he was ready to kill the Supreme Kai for interfering.

  • @camerontheninja9592
    @camerontheninja9592 Год назад

    The best way to describe Goku now is that they made the DBZ Abridged Goku cannon.

    • @MrSunglxzz
      @MrSunglxzz 8 месяцев назад

      even the abridged Goku is serious when he needs to be.

  • @openlink9958
    @openlink9958 7 месяцев назад

    3:08 dude, I just realized that's ALL he does on Super. Like literally no villain in DBS ACTUALLY damages Goku's friends (to the extent they did before), they are a multiversal threat RATHER than personal threat to Goku's relatives. They do threaten them but none actually get close to a deep emotional scar

  • @ZarrarTheLegendary
    @ZarrarTheLegendary Год назад +2

    Man I miss the old Goku. Also, I appreciate the content you've been putting out on Goku. We need more critical thinkers like you in the community. Dragon ball has played a big role in my child hood, and I absolutely dislike what they've done to Goku's character. Honestly, it is a shame to have one of the most influential character in fiction and then ruin his character completely. Vegeta too.

  • @dbzgtvaf
    @dbzgtvaf Год назад +1

    Well. I'm 100% sure it is a character regression because it HAS to be there. At the end of Z there was zero ways to have Goku grow. Then making him the main character for a demographic that did not grow up with him. I believe the writers at Toei and even Toriyama felt he HAD to be that way. Even the movie where you had Goku not knowing why Vegeta is meditating even though he was taught the importance of meditation as kid when training with Kami.

  • @yurazah
    @yurazah 11 месяцев назад +1

    i genuinely believe toryama has completely warped himself over time so much that hes almost a completely different person to the guy who wrote dragon ball maybe due to resentment toward the series for all the pain it caused him mentally and physically or the spite hes built for it since he seems to wish he was known for his comedy and not dragonball or even some thing related to how he became a recluse to avoid his fans, it has to be something like that for him to forget such broad strokes of his own story. apparently he reread db before battle of gods but seemingly didnt understand the themes of his own story from what we've gotten since. (well i actually think bog was amazing and a true dragonball experience, but most stuff after that felt kinda lacking)

    • @MrSunglxzz
      @MrSunglxzz 8 месяцев назад

      to be fair it's been 40 years, not that uncommon for people to change within that time frame. he isn't a young and hungry mangaka anymore, and his view point on some aspects have changed for sure, but that's probably why he works together with Toyotaro, which helps him to stay in touch with his original concepts and ideas.

  • @erichthegraham
    @erichthegraham Год назад +1

    I feel like the most likely reason that Goku's character has been regressed is so that the new generation has analogous stories. Like, literally the reason he gives Moro a senzu is probably pure member berries. I'm assuming it's a marketing thing, or just doing a safe storyline Beat. Either that, or maybe Toriyama legitimately forgot he already wrote that character development.
    Edit: Now that Daima is announced, I realize that Toriyama was not the only writer on Super, don't know the details but it seems like he has more creative freedom with Daima so we'll see

  • @charliescales6398
    @charliescales6398 Год назад

    It goes back to Dragon Ball, too. I mean when that little kid’s dad dies and he goes out of his way to avenge and revive him. And then throughout the series his power ups and fights stem from him avenging others.

  • @hieudong2007
    @hieudong2007 3 месяца назад

    In defense of the Buu saga: Goku is obssessed with finding a new guardian for earth because he is only there for one day.And you can see he was dissapointed with Gohan not reaching his potiential because he thought that earth needs a protector so he looks to Goten and Trunks but they are too young thats when at the last chapter when Vegeta tells Goku when he was collecting energy for the spirit bomb that he needs to let the people of earth save themselves sometimes because Goku has done it so many times before.

  • @1dfr33
    @1dfr33 Год назад

    I enjoyed that one of the first things you said was people gaslighting themselves. Very accurate.

  • @SuperLumianaire
    @SuperLumianaire Год назад

    Your actions end up crafting and shaping you into who you become. Just like if you do bad things for a good, it can lead you to becoming a bad person if you lose sight of what you are doing it for.

  • @MinhLe19303
    @MinhLe19303 3 месяца назад

    3:20 There're rare instants of Goku actually fight for the universe. One example is during chapter 314 page 20, Goku commented that if he's "don't stop Frieza now... The whole universe will be in danger."
    I always find Toriyama's quote to be rather BS as while he did slips through his desire to have a fun challenge, Goku's priority is always to protect his friends and the innocents and prevent any more harms and casualties as much as possible. However, it's possible the reason he failed to uphold that characterization is because of his assisstants' influences on the series and its direction, thus he never had opportunity to portrayed Goku the way he wanted until Buu arc where Goku's flaws are more apparent.

  • @Fuegoaries
    @Fuegoaries Год назад +1

    WE STARTING A RIOT WITH THIS ONE🔥 we Gon make these niggas understand.

  • @gabbingdabbing
    @gabbingdabbing Год назад

    the senzu bean to moro is in a certain way something he did with fat boo, he gave him the senzu not in hope that he would immediately change but that he would go back to prison and think about his mistakes, my take is essentialy that goku thinks that moro should pay for his sins but him dying isnt what he thougt of.

  • @hungryforlunch
    @hungryforlunch 6 месяцев назад

    Goku is the reincarnation of the grand priest.

  • @skaterboi65
    @skaterboi65 Год назад +1

    I really really hate how they characterized him in Super. Cell saga goku really goated

  • @onekidgamer577
    @onekidgamer577 Год назад +3

    Goku gave moro a sensu bean because he knew that even if moro heals he would still be able to beat him this is shown as goku tanks moro's punch like it was nothing of course eventually moro fused with the earth but everyone makes mistakes the way you are saying it your making it like DBS Goku is a terrible and completely different character with no redeeming qualities

  • @demo0831
    @demo0831 2 месяца назад +1

    Goku 100% is willing to keep the world safe, and clearly cares about justice and other people. Its pretty simple actually, Toriyamas idea of goku became less heroic in his mind as time went on.
    Goku is hero hes just not superman. Goku doesnt stop a bank robbery, but he also wont just abide seeing people die. Gokus morality is very much reactionary, unless a threat is so worryisome he has to be proactive. Basically Goku saves the World from bad guys that put the world or large portions of people that hes aware of in danger.
    AND Gokus a better character for being heroic. Because the character toriyama wanted to right is super goku, and super goku blows.

  • @grammeland1
    @grammeland1 11 месяцев назад

    Ah the automated subs
    "After sale speech, the whole world fell in a state of terror"

  • @thanosbambi
    @thanosbambi Год назад +1

    you basically just called author statements HEADCANON 🥶

    • @emperortoho
      @emperortoho Год назад +2

      because they mismatch what the story actually tells
      its like with jk rowling’s statements

  • @austinthompson3075
    @austinthompson3075 Год назад +5

    If you wanna be TECHNICAL Goku had give four villains a senzu bean in the Dragon Ball universe which I'll make a list that'll be in chronological order.
    1) The first was when he give Piccolo a senzu bean after the end of thier fight in the 23rd Budokai Tenkaichi Tournament.
    2) The second was when Goku got to planet namek & save Gohan & Krillin from the ginyu force & then Goku read Krillin's mind to understand what went down & realize that Vegeta helped him & I know Vegeta wasn't one of the big villains in the namek saga, but he was still a villain, so Vegeta during that time frame technically speaking STILL COUNTS.
    3) The third is when Goku give Cell a senzu bean & we all know how that went down.
    4) The forth was when Goku give Moro a senzu bean.

  • @Obad87
    @Obad87 11 месяцев назад +2

    I completely disagree because Goku has always been about mercy and giving people second chances. A better comparison is vegeta. He was very evil but Goku let him live. He gave Moro the senzu bean NOT for no reason at all. It was the only way Goku could be sure of Moros intentions. If he was actually going to be good or just lying about it because he was weak. Goku knew he could beat him again if he had to. This is not the problem with Goku. The real change is how dumb and immature he is now. This is the only mature thing he's done in super.
    It really started in dragon ball when Eighter told Goku not to kill white. He learned mercy then. So for him not to do it anymore would be regressing the character. Goku doesn't kill people unless he absolutely feels he has too. Even Frieza he held back that final shot.

  • @ggwp638BC
    @ggwp638BC 11 месяцев назад +1

    The point Torayama made is better understood if we contrast Goku with Saiyaman/Gohan
    Saiyaman is a hero. He sees crime and injustice, he goes out of his way to stop it. He takes down bad guys. He is trying to make the world a better place.
    Goku is not a hero. He is a good man, he does not create evil and is generally good and selfless, but Goku, despite being pretty much capable of just stopping every robbery, mugging and murder in the city, does not do that. He lives a cozy, selfish life. He trains and gets stronger because he likes to. He fights bad guys when they threaten him and his loved ones. He doesn't want innocent people to get hurt, but he won't go out of his way to make the world a better place. Even Frieza, the Sayians, the Red Army, Cell, Boo, all of these threats he fought were NOT because he was a hero of justice, but because they threaten him and his way of life.

  • @Mrsuperspartanman
    @Mrsuperspartanman Год назад

    This information really does make Goku more interesting to me.

  • @Legion831
    @Legion831 7 месяцев назад

    Have you forgotten about his famous quote? I am the hope of the universe speech

  • @fredo8117
    @fredo8117 7 месяцев назад

    the cell senzu makes sense I mean they all joined the cell game which is a game where it's one on one with cell and goku gave cell a senzu to give him a fair fight against gohan, my first assumption is that goku wants cell to be at his full power so he can bring out gohan's protentional, 2 is that goku doesn't want to rob gohan's win because if gohan fought cell in that state they will say goku did the job and gohan just finished it.

  • @trashboat5388
    @trashboat5388 Год назад +1

    Also when Goku took down the entire red ribbon army to revive Upa’s father. Also why is Goro’s theme in the background?🥴

  • @cidlunius1076
    @cidlunius1076 11 месяцев назад

    6:50 Bulma gave birth to Trunks, so Future Bulma did defeat Frieza, by proxy. 😂

  • @Jetblast01
    @Jetblast01 10 месяцев назад

    Just because Goku fought for his own interest in fighting doesn't mean he doesn't fight to defend others. It just means he doesn't go out specifically for justice, but will fight for his own friends or stop bullies. Kid Goku was all about stopping bad people doing bad things he'd see along the way, which they often mistreated people nice to him or him directly. Goku doesn't like to kill or see innocents being killed, especially after meeting Android 8. Like...Goku giving a Senzu to Cell he started to realize was a MISTAKE!

    • @MrSunglxzz
      @MrSunglxzz 8 месяцев назад

      the senzu for cell was important psychologically, think about it. cell was fatigued after Goku, Goku knew that Gohan was even stronger than him as a ssj. but cell was unpredictable, there is no telling what he had done if mastered ssj gohan was actually willing to fight seriously. I assume he would have been forced to unleash his full power, and at that point it would have been lights out for our heroes.

  • @revenantronin8377
    @revenantronin8377 Год назад +4

    "Dragon Ball fans can't read" 😂
    Your overall point is that Goku's character development was sacrificed for the plot in Super.
    By pointing out how he gradually learns from his mistakes and matures.
    Their rebuttal is always, "well, he did the same thing 20 years ago so it's in character for Goku".... Yeah, he did but he shouldn't be doing it NOW as he has outgrown that level of incompetence decades ago.
    This isn't difficult to understand really.

    • @primalgod7952
      @primalgod7952 Год назад

      Goku In super have a better hunch or sense if someone’s evil or not that’s why he was trying to stop broly threw his words rather than his fist as an example even then that was always apart of goku’s character either you accept it or not gt goku does the same thing to but he doesn’t get called out for it after Moro refused he was going to kill him then and there and the same thing with gas and he was going to kill goku black and zamazu when they was gonna fuse cause vegeta takes to damn long