Hello everyone, I finally got around to reading and replying to most of the comments here and I just wanted to thank you all for the support! I honestly didn't think the video would do this well and talking about these types of things with you all has been really fun! While I admit that this video isn't perfect and I missed out on mentioning some very crucial elements that you all had pointed out, like the lack of incentive to use the different moves, I do appreciate the criticism and feedback. Again, thank you all for the support!!!
Ideally I think they should refine the combat system that Frontiers established by having it follow the very philosophy of the entire series, easy to pick up, but hard to master Some of my ideas include: Making enemies more aggressive depending on the difficulty level Adding proper damage and level scaling to discourage spamming and make enemies more tanky, that way you're not one-tapping everything at max level Adding a move that doesn't do damage but is more focused on crowd control. Adding the ability to both inflict and be inflicted with debuffs, we've seen The Final Horizon update play around with this idea Adding a ranking system to every encounter to encourage the player to try and get better at the combat portion of the game Nerfing the ring system as well as, since you didn't mention it, the parry No seriously, between the ability to spawn infinite rings, and busted parry that can be held indefinitely, anyone who knows how to play is basically unkillable in Frontiers
my idea for the parry for the parry to work is to make it like KH,make it just a guard and if you time it just right you can actually get a bonu damage on the counterattack afterwards, should work for Sonic
@@bichoestranhocomcaudas6543 How about for sonic, his party is a dodge instead? Timing the parry would make sonic do a sick ass ui dodge while doing some cool trick to avoid the enemy, we could even do it like frontiers where the camera gets all close up to show the dodge. It could do a little stun instead of fully staggering the enemy, in exchange for a wider stun radius. You’d have to pull off several “perfect dodges” do stagger enemies, but they’d be staggered for longer than usual. It would fit sonics personality much better, and we could leave the parry to shadow or super sonic, and give knuckles a busted block.
@@SunSh1neFN could also see that working,Sonic is more of a dodge person than a block person and that would show off his pesonality way better than a block,the only thing to consider here is how tight the parry has to be and if Sonic is going to have another defense mechanism. I think something kinda like DMC royal guard could work,where you have a basic dodge that you use just to get out of harm's way and this special dodge to actually stagger enemies and leave them open for attacks
I think frontiers could have a finisher system. I have one called "Cyber Transgression." Sonic makes a Cyberspace sword, runs towards the enemy and makes various attacks and makes the final blast
the problem with unleashed combat is it gives you no reason not to just mash x imagine if dmc gave you an sss for just hitting one button and all the enemies were cannon fodder who would want to master that
@@SonicTheBlueBlur15 youre forgetting the time it takes to learn the combos so its faster to just beat the game normally especially since the game will give you an s rank no matter what
That's not accurate, tho. - The combat offers attributes to each attack, which gives them added benefits when attacking enemies (singular or hordes) - Keeping a sufficient combo chain allows the player to earn score, which helps with the rank - Enemies offer unique behavior and group dynamics that forces the player to utilize different combos. The only case where this kind falters is with the Strength stat, which can be overpowering. But that usually isn't the case until well into the later stat levels, and WHY would you choose to play the boring way?
I would love a more robust combat system from frontiers (combos that trigger the doom blast for advanced movement 🤩), but that’s the thing, “MOVEMENT”. The werehog is slow and trapped
Sonic Frontier's combat is easily at its best when there are multiple enemies in my opinion. So, a huge part of the problem is how often they put you up against single enemies. One mod spiced up a mundane encounter by simply putting that Ares Island sniper enemy in the mix! I'm not sure what the best option is, but they could refine what they already have and mix up the enemy encounters a bit more... or they could adapt a more Dynasty Warriors approach focused on using Sonic's speed for mass crowd control. I'm currently feeling too lazy to think through how that would work, but Persona 5 Strikers did an amazing job with it and that came from a Turnbased RPG!
Saying Unleashed combat has substance is a bold take. I get it, I love DMC too but that gameplay just doesn't flow into the rest of Sonic's gameplay or encourage you to use the rest of his moveset. The Frontiers system works great because it's tied directly into your movement. I feel like the main issue with Frontiers feeling stale is that the enimes are kinda boring. They broke the Sonic convention of making enemies die quickly which felt satisfying. Maybe have you go up against multiple enemies more intead of one-on-one fights. If they ever make a slower paced Knuckles spin-off or something tho then I would love to see a continuation of Unleashed combat.
I fail to see how the Unleashed Combat system can be said to not have substance. They have much more variety, and applications out of combat, thats substance. Meanwhile Frontiers moves are just 3 attacks, twice. (Sonic Boom & Cross Slash, Spin Slash & Cyclone Spin, Wild Rush, Homing Shot & Loop Kick), We could cut Frontiers moves in half, and not very much would change. Meanwhile for Unleashed, if we cut the moves in half, it would be much more notable. The Frontiers system doenst take into account your movement at all though? You just press a button and snap to the enemies, meanwhile the wherehog, you have to aim your attacks. Regarding enemies dying quickly, Heroes, Shadow, I believe 06, and Unleashed also have you hitting enemies multiple times in combat, its happened before, just not too often is all. Personally, I'd love to see Sonic have a bigger moveset, maybe even bring some of the Werehogs attack and Sonic-ify them. After all, he DID use them before, now he just needs to put his own.. -spin- on them :] I just wish Frontiers had more unique attacks to use! If Frontiers had maybe double the actual moves, I think Frontiers combat would've been better. I find myself avoiding combat because the moves are so bland, and defeating enemies was pointless by Island 3. There wasnt any reason to get XP, meanwhile in Unleashed, you could beat up every enemy possible and still have plenty of things to use your XP for! Frontiers is ripe for ideas, it has a lot of them, but they're all very ankle-deep. I'm really hoping Sonic team pulls through and starts giving depth. Though I totally agree on the Knuckles spinoff, Knuckles brawling it out would be sick as hell.
@@switchstar098 I’ve always thought they should tailor the combat style to the character. Like maybe sonics combat is more about being fast, moving around and dealing way more stun than damage. Kinda like Atreus from gow. That way if you picked sonic, you’d be running around, juking enemies and outwitting them into fast combos, as opposed to knuckles who may function more like venom from Spider-Man 2, being able to pick up stunned enemies and throw them, while doing massive damage, eating damage but being slow as heck. And then shadow could be a mix of the 2, mobility and damage.
For my money, a good example of high-speed platforming and DMC combat is Spark the Electric Jester 3. If you wanna make a Sonic with engaging combat, you need to give him options to prevent the spamming of the same options while also having the freedom to avoid it altogether if you want
I kinda wish they would go back to making Sonic's moveset based on him being a fast HEDGEHOG instead of an anime character shooting ki blast and doing parry stances. Remember the insta-shield? Sonic wind? Bounce bracelet? What happened to those moves?
Yeah it'd be nice for them to utilize his speed more for combat compared to what they went with in Frontiers despite the cool factor of it. Also the bounce bracelet NEEDS to come back for 3D Sonic, it just isn't the same without it
The best improvement for frontiers combat, is simple. It’s called add a cooldown system, for some of the attacks, The quick cyloop meter, can be used for way more, Remove slowing down time, or freeze time, every time it does an attack. Attacking doing less damage, and being way more fast pace, And add a system, where if you keep spam using the same attack, it will do way less damage, meaning you have to combo. And 2 of my favourite frontiers combat mods, does this which is Reforged combat, For the titan bosses, and new Genesis, for the guardian bosses. And the final combat mod I added, 50% damage nerf for sonic. I believe I downloaded more mods, where I made the ring system, where every time you mess up a parry with super sonic, you lose 30 to 40 rings, or even more ring loss, every time a titan hits you, to justify the 400 rings, but I won’t type that much.
I think frontiers could have a finisher system. Like the Spiderman games! You reach an expecific combo number and you make a finisher. (the finisher does not end the enemy instantly)
I think sonic should be stylish with limited or real combo inputs. Frontiers combat is really cool in terms of spectacle, minus the non existent difficulty.
@@SallySupra yo imagine using moves like the drift mid combat, like drifting out of a dodge and losing down the enemy with your spin attack, knocking them into an air combo
It does have some really good traits like not being a completely different play style and being able to cancel all the moves into each other which feels very nice. But yeah I think they should just combine the two best traits. Plus I think instead of a skill tree there should be a movelist to buy attacks and change the parry to a guard with a parry.
Never really realized while playing but yeah, frontiers combat might as well not exist. Theyre so not confident in people engaging with it it may as well be an interactive loading screen
An idea I ended up with when thinking about this general topic is something that trends much closer to just normal Sonic boost gameplay than your average hack and slash or the like. And that's because I would straight up combine Sonic's platforming moveset and a combat system into one rather than requiring the player to constantly switch gears between running around at the speed of sound and smacking enemies around. Specifically, I love the idea of momentum. An energy you get to build up by skillful decision making and well timed actions, which can then be converted into quite a wide variety of effects, depending on the circumstance. In terms of combat, that means dealing damage and knocking enemies around. Since we already have a currently largely cosmetic, little speedometer in the corner, we might as well use it. Segmenting it into different speed stages, Sonic's true maximum speed must be a challenge to reach, not simply achieved with a press of the boost button, because this speed is what would dictate the possible effects of an attack against an enemy. Those attacks then would be actually more of a choice of different approaches. Slam into the enemy to launch yourself up, maximizing straight damage but betting all your momentum on your ability to either time a follow-up stomp or somehow get back out of dodge and time like a landing roll for a safer, but only partial speed refund; go low and launch the enemy up, costing you only part of your speed and opening up the enemy for way more follow-ups, but also dealing less burst damage in that one move; springboarding over and past the enemy, dealing minimal damage, retaining basically all your speed and essentially just using them as your typical boost stage launchpad; or just smashing straight on into the enemy to knock them back laterally instead, costing you nearly all your accumulated momentum for maximized damage, so you better have a plan for chasing that enemy back down (if the drop dash speed would scale off of distance fallen, you could catch up to an enemy you launched off way up high in the air with the last of your previous combo's momentum by just laughing in the face of the pythagorean theorem). The Frontiers homing attack spam may also be feasible as a 0 speed requirement combo extension to just deal a bit of extra damage between big hits and give yourself some breathing room to come up with your next move. Plus, weakpoints should be a thing so juggling the enemy around a bit to get to that spot with a well timed combo finisher would also be a reason to use it. On the topic of defense then, active, platformery evasion would be the standard, sliding under high attacks, jumping over low ones and just generally staying out of the way of anything more direct than that. However, if enemy attacks are each given well defined and telegraphed directions of momentum, Sonic could reasonably also play off of those. Moving with the enemy's momentum would not only open the possibility of nullifying the attack's effect due to relativity, but also let Sonic either syphon momentum off of it for his own speed or attack into the enemy's attack for a much more sensible form of the Frontiers parry, overclocking the incoming attack's momentum and sending it right back at the enemy in a manner outside of their control. Some examples: The enemy uses a horizontal sweep like the werehog's hook strikes - Sonic can move against the swing's direction and jump for a basic evasion that might cost him a bit of speed unless he finds a way to use his new bit of potential energy; Sonic can move with the swing's direction and dodge into it to briefly hang onto the attacking limb, before slingshotting off with more speed than before; or Sonic can attack with the swing's direction and cause the limb to come arcing back around to smack into the enemy, costing a bit of momentum, but dealing proportionally more damage than it would have been in a direct attack (this does not invalidate direct attacks, since those cash in up to all your momentum, while a parry only uses a small fraction). Or the enemy uses a downward slamming attack, shockwave included - Sonic can dodge away like normal; Sonic can jump in time with the shockwave to use it as a vertical launcher, gaining way more height and thereby potential energy than normal; or Sonic can follow the slamming appendage down to its impact point, either stomping or otherwise homing attacking down into it to deal not only the expected bit of damage to the enemy, but also pin their attacking limb in place for a couple seconds. Adding onto the toolkit, some of the higher speeds may include side effects to make maintaining your speed for a time also worthwhile, such as turning Sonic's evasion into the snappy quicksteps, that are currently limited to the semi-scripted autorun sections, or having just drifting in a circle kick up a tornado in the middle to lift all enemies within (yes, this is the cyloop's function, but I prefer physics over cyberspace shenanigans, especially when an effect can be already easily explained by just exaggerating physics).
I like both systems, but there’s a single flaw with both of them. They don’t really encourage moveset exploration. There’s no real reason to use any other move outside of the strongest combos in your arsenal, just look at the Titan fights people just spammed the stomp over and over again. The one thing that requires it somewhat is defensive stances, because enemies guard unleashed sometimes, and enemies in frontiers need to be Looped. If there was a penalty for spamming the same move, or a DMC score based system, I think it would improve it.
That's a very valid point. Kinda wish I brought it up, but not having any incentive to actually using different moves is a make-or-break for these kinds of combat systems. Hopefully moving forward (if there is a future game with combat as a main part of the game again) they implement a ranking system, and hopefully it won't be anywhere near as easy as the normal stage rankings they do with the levels in post-2010 Sonic games
Not gonna lie , sonic in combat styles in games , really needs a change up And by that meaning, a combat style that fits with the characters personality, I actually came up with some moves that could be used in a next game , and here it is Upper drill kick ( sonic spins to the enemy, breakdances to confuse them , hit them in midar with a powerful spin kick) Cyclone spear spree ( Sonic's in a crowd of enemies, he jumps , charges his energy, and spins kicks so fast , he creates a cyclone around him , and spears come out of it ) Drop blast ( Sonic's about to get jumped, sonic jumps real high, charges his spin ball , and drop dashes, causing a powerful blast , killing all the enemies) Homing laser shot ( sonic jumps, charges his spin ball in midair, and homing attacks the enemies like light bouncing off mirrors in light speed , causing a speedblitz ) Karate blitz ( sonic charges in his peel out form , and runs so fast , creating after images , while hitting karate move at the enemies) Tornado marathon ( sonic runs around the enemies, causing a powerful tornado , jumps in the tornado, and starts boxing and homing the enemies in midair) Bullet punches ( sonic charges his energy, he rally up his fist, and makes big magic fists in speeds of bullets ) Additional moves ( chaos spear, chaos blast , time stop and sonic wind )
Sonic abilities ( I'll be using PlayStation controls ) Basics 1 square-punch combo (damage medium range low) 2 triangle-kick (damage low range medium) 3 square triangle-punch double feet kick (damage high range medium) 4 triangle square-kick homing attack (damage medium range high) 5 triangle triangle-spinning kick(damage multi low range circle medium) 6 hold square-uppercut (damage medium range low starts air combo 7 Hold triangle-flip kick (damage medium range low above behind forward) 8 Square square triangle-combo knee (damage high range low) and thats just a few of the basics Specials 1 R2-boost (damage medium range high) 2 R2 triangle-boost kick (damage high range high) 3 L2-crosh slash (damage low multi range high) 4 L2 square-crosh slash homing shot (damage medium multi range high) and thats not even scratched the surface of its possibilities
agree! while I do enjoy Frontiers' combat a lot more (at the point to opening the game multiple times a day just to fight Master NInja+) I completely understand its not perfect, THO, it's the most unique type of combat I've seen in a game period! I really live this like, mix of hack and slash and powerful moves, I even made a concept for improvements for the combat myself! I might do a Sonic fangame based off this concept one day to demonstrate the perfect combat for Sonic (basically the same as Frontiers but radically improved and expanded) Unleashed combat its nice, I like it (specially as a classic God of War fan) but the main flaw is that 1. it dosen't fit Sonic at all 2. you can complete the whole game with the basic attack, unlike Frontiers where you have many tools and attacks that you can use (even tho its not as much as Unleashed) I would expand of how the perfect combat system for Frontiers could be but I don't wanna make this comment too long, but yeah, for me Unleashed wins at the ammount of moves, while Frontiers wins at basically feeling like Sonic when you fight, and its a lot cooler imo. (for a better experience, I recommend Supercharged Combat or Full Tilt mods, those improve the combat to make them faster because i feel like in the base game some of the attacks are too slowm specially Homing Shot)
If there is another open zone combat game I’d like it if Sonic had really bad defensive options but relied more on his speed to evade attacks, it feels far more accurate to how he fights in comics, tv shows, and even smash to some extent. Some mini bosses in frontiers did try this but all were pretty forgettable and terrible imo. Though to replace the infinite parry they could bring back a form of the insta shield since that basically was a parry in the classic sonic games but I don’t think it would be good to give Sonic’s only defensive option to be a perfectly timed parry. He can have a guard that protects him but it could have multiple downsides such as having lots of end lag or haulting his speed somehow to incentivize using running or the insta shield as better defensive options for openings but have the option there for players who don’t have a full grasp on the combat yet.
I like the concept of his speed acting as his defense, sounds like it'd be fun to master your movement on the spot of tricky situations (also, the insta-shield acting like a parry sounds badass ngl)
I feel like taking some notes from kingdom hearts 3 command combat system could work really well for future sonic game combat. Kingdom hearts command combat is simple fast and engaging. Something that fits perfectly for sonic and may be appealing to casual and hardcore sonic fans alike. Of course some minor changes would need to be made to fit sonic’s fast platformer game dna, and the video game industry standards of action platformers with a mascot character having simple easy to pick up combat, but over all I see a lot of positives to the idea. I feel this would be a good topic for a video and conversation if you and others find interest in tackle the topic😊
I think there should be 2 methods of deflecting attacks in frontiers, a guard, which is the same as the base parry, but doesnt allow you to use the grand slam when activated and doesn't slow down time, and an actual parry with proper timing which allows for the grand slam to be used and also would slow time.
You said some real shit this video, hearing you break down the combat like that really made me realise how barebones and sloped together the combat is. I’m hoping they make the combat better, but from the latest leaks, it seems like they’re keeping the frontiers combat untouched💀 Also I’ll check out your uefn stuff, ground zero looks kinda tuff ngl
@@Norrabal they covered the leaks on sonic show, multiple leakers reported that the newest sonic game will be momentum focused, have a new feature called “surge”, and contain villages of npcs you can interact with. It’s a really early build and it looks like they’re recycling sonic frontiers combat
Honestly sega shoudve asked implemented some moves from unleash or asked their like a dragon sector to give them combat ideas or give them the combat aspects that feels fun or innovative for the blue blur
If I could offer a combat system that works perfectly with Sonic, it's a mix of the combat foundations from Sonic Unleashed mixed with the platforming and movement combat found in Sonic Heroes (I'm surprised you didn't mention that at all).
Haven't played Heroes in years nor do I have the means to play it currently so I felt like adding in my opinion on something I haven't tried in forever would be unfair
the problem with sonic combat is that it needs a new style altogether, no other action game fits it. he should just have a handful of simple quick attacks and most if not all of them should work while moving or even while homing attacking. and he should never get stuck in an animation like in frontiers. sonic battle (on the GBA) had some good ideas, like shooting a wave that launches him in the opposite direction. or the air flip kick that hits all around and doesn't affect his momentum. or the quick helicopter kick that gives him a little air time like shadow's chaos spears in generations.
5:16 I think it would be more apt to compare the Werehog gameplay to God of War (2005) because Devil May Cry & Bayonetta come from a sub-genre of Hack n Slash called Character Action, which focus more on style, whereas God of War 05 is a more traditional hack n slash
Honestly, I've always disliked the night stages in Unleashed just for how dragged out it would be via the platforming for those stages. I feel like if they were to place Sonic back into that environment with a game about split Speed and Fight stages again it would feel nicer either dropping the platforming until later so the early game doesn't feel so drawn out via fight stages, or by enforcing more speed within said fight stages, not Frontiers fast but faster than how Werehog was at the start of the game. (Early game Unleashed really left a bad taste in my throat I apologize for any bias). It's just the thing about Frontiers is that it feels too weak almost. They couldn't balance him correctly for the fighting and either made it feel like he does nothing or everything dies in like 3 hits. I would love to see Unleashed's style of combat be attempted to be implimented back with the elements they had developed for Frontiers. Also the parry equally pisses me off especially in the extra story with Super Sonic 2 because they just expect you to know how to perfect parry everything when the game was made around holding said parry button(s) GOD it was terrible, Better choreographing for enemies and an actual parry system would drive a combat based Sonic concept in a very good direction almost alone I believe.
Yeah the slow nature of the werehog just doesn't fit Sonic at all, no matter how good they could've made the platforming and combat. Also I agree with your point on the parry, if it actually acted like one it would've made the combat more enjoyable (alongside better choreography, the wyvern boss for the master koco trial still gets me with how poorly it's implemented)
Heroes and P-06 moveset is perfect imo. I don't want anime fights, I just want moves that fit the character. Like trapping enemies in a blue tornado, spin attack, dash, breakdance kicks, hammer drop (like Mighty in Sonic Mania). And please keep it simple: no combos, no damage numbers, no midair combat, no flashy effects (shockwaves, electricity, sparks,). And also bring back the spindash for every character.
Honestly that's a valid take. Despite my love for hack n' slash combat systems, I 100% understand that it isn't for everyone. Sonic games don't *need* them, but in times that they do (to the extent seen in Frontiers and Unleashed), it's best to point out their flaws in case they ever decide to do it again. Although it would be nice to separate the combat and platforming to their own dedicated controls instead of meshing the two together like they did in Frontiers' Cyberspace levels
Thanks for this! I would also have liked it if you compared Frontiers combat to that of other Sonic games such as Heroes, 06, or even Rise of Lyric. It's worth mentioning that Heroes really distinguished each type of character really well and it really flowed well with the stages, but it's also quite in-depth with the decision making, which is why it's so divisive. 06 had the Shadow combat, which was simple yet fitted the stages well, but it was also quite buggy. And Rise of Lyric, well, it was also simple, but it has some combos and the extra items that you pick up make it more interesting. But combat in Sonic games in general has always been basic. Even the most combat oriented Sonic game, Black Knight, pales in comparison to those have and slash games. I think Frontiers combat has potential, as all it really needs is to make the moves less static and be the actions that you are performing rather than watching. On the other hand, while the Werehog combat is more involved (than the day stages), it also deviates too much from the standard Sonic gameplay which everyone likes, as it's quite slow and repetitive with not that much focus on platforming. So I'm quite conflicted on whether Sonic should even have combat, as while it might add an interest layer to the Sonic gameplay if done right, if it is done too well and is on par with your typical hack and slash game, it might also go too far from the core identity of what Sonic is, so I think it is worth questioning whether or not we should want that, regardless of how fun it is. You can make a similar deduction for all the other alternative gameplay styles which Sonic games have featured through process of elimination and conclude the same thing. But the main reason they really do that is because of padding, which is what many people actually wanted simply for the sake of more playtime and value for money. Also, I'm honestly shocked that they haven't reduced the parry window for Sonic for higher difficulties (and the pop-in), yet they did for the other playable characters.
I wasn't sure if I should include the other games since I haven't really played most of them in years (except for 06 but I don't count that since it was P-06 and not the vanilla game) nor do I have a way to play most of them, but thanks for your support nonetheless!!
Don't know how to compare the game with a proper brawling, enemies that attack in groups, having different behaviours, and also all of the combo aside you can pick everyone of them and make different attacks holding them or just making finishers due qte's, or even you can lauch guy in the air and mid-air you can grab him and crush him to the ground like some kind of wrestler - with a 2 attacks and look here, a funky animation for 3 seconds of something worthy of Chinese gacha game with almost no impact. Problem with Unleashed was never a combat - people hated the werehog, while gameplay was just phenomenal for group of people, that were working on this type of gameplay for a first time - and achieved something like GoW level.
This was a pretty good video until you said the night time stages are better than the daytime stages in Unleashed and this is coming from someone who LIKES THE NIGHT TIME STAGES so now i gotta drop this video down a point, sorry but you know the rules........
See, the problem with combat at least my opinion is sonic games gives 0 reason to really try. I've seen frontiers combo clips. What you *can* do vs what you need to do is so drastic. It's simply a by-product of the enemies lack of real thought and the lack of any incentive to try. Sonic games already struggled alot of the time to be more harsh on the S-rank, but since sonic does tend to copy, They really need a ranking system for the next game with combat. So that people start using what little they have to create something that feels good to pull off. Each move should have some value. Even if initially that's not so obvious and yes, sonic *can* be an anime character but instead of just going all in, use something like the spindash as a form of bread and butter (yes, i'm seriously saying smash version of sonic to be the foundation) but expand on it, for example revving a spindash on a foe can stagger them into another attack like the cyclone kick or wild rush which can then be followed up by a drop dash to keep the flow going)
Not the "I can't believe the game is getting boring the longer I play it" that seems to only ever apply to Sonic and not other popular game series. Keep playing games with excellent combat too and see how that goes (no different). Sonic Unleashed has the best boost formula stages in the series. Generations just has the more traditional and more platform-present level design, which is why you prefer it. That's fine, but in terms of what game actually properly uses and best emphasizes the boost-style philosophy, it's hands down Unleashed. Sonic being purely a platformer will kill the game series. (The genre is still dead in the grand scheme of things.) Mario of all dang platforrmer series doesn't even stick solely to platforming. Platformers are also historically known for having other playable characters with vastly different playstyles and/or other genres as gameplay elements (racing, shooting, beat em up, mech, etc), so it's never been an issue that Sonic has done this too. This started much before SA1 as well, in the classic era. Most of your Frontier combat arguments were done on ignorant premises, which just can't go unmentioned tbh. I'm not even going to go over half of them but just a few. Hitting/having multiple enemies is neither difficult or rare, it's actually common. I don't know what's going on in your playthroughs but it tends to be harder for me to actually fight enemies 1o1 without hitting more than one target... then again you probably have Sonic stats maxed out and abuse cross slash early on. Anyways, another thing is that Sonic has not 1 but 2 launch attacks in the game, making it that more glaring how you're so unaware of this for a combat. And a cool thing is, unlike in Unleashed, you can KEEP flinging enemies upwards provided they got the health for it. (You can also spike enemies and send them flying, all of which you should frickin know at least.)
I never said I wanted Sonic to purely be a platformer. While I admit I could've gone over my complaints with the Frontiers combat better than I did in the video, but I still stand on most of my points made. Also yes, while I did have max stats in the gameplay, I tried my best not to abuse any one move for the video to one-sidedly prove my point or anything. I'm sorry for having my frontiers portion come off as ignorant, I will try my best to remedy that issue for any future videos I plan on making.
Hello everyone, I finally got around to reading and replying to most of the comments here and I just wanted to thank you all for the support! I honestly didn't think the video would do this well and talking about these types of things with you all has been really fun! While I admit that this video isn't perfect and I missed out on mentioning some very crucial elements that you all had pointed out, like the lack of incentive to use the different moves, I do appreciate the criticism and feedback. Again, thank you all for the support!!!
Ideally I think they should refine the combat system that Frontiers established by having it follow the very philosophy of the entire series, easy to pick up, but hard to master
Some of my ideas include:
Making enemies more aggressive depending on the difficulty level
Adding proper damage and level scaling to discourage spamming and make enemies more tanky, that way you're not one-tapping everything at max level
Adding a move that doesn't do damage but is more focused on crowd control.
Adding the ability to both inflict and be inflicted with debuffs, we've seen The Final Horizon update play around with this idea
Adding a ranking system to every encounter to encourage the player to try and get better at the combat portion of the game
Nerfing the ring system as well as, since you didn't mention it, the parry
No seriously, between the ability to spawn infinite rings, and busted parry that can be held indefinitely, anyone who knows how to play is basically unkillable in Frontiers
my idea for the parry for the parry to work is to make it like KH,make it just a guard and if you time it just right you can actually get a bonu damage on the counterattack afterwards, should work for Sonic
@@bichoestranhocomcaudas6543
How about for sonic, his party is a dodge instead? Timing the parry would make sonic do a sick ass ui dodge while doing some cool trick to avoid the enemy, we could even do it like frontiers where the camera gets all close up to show the dodge. It could do a little stun instead of fully staggering the enemy, in exchange for a wider stun radius. You’d have to pull off several “perfect dodges” do stagger enemies, but they’d be staggered for longer than usual. It would fit sonics personality much better, and we could leave the parry to shadow or super sonic, and give knuckles a busted block.
@@SunSh1neFN could also see that working,Sonic is more of a dodge person than a block person and that would show off his pesonality way better than a block,the only thing to consider here is how tight the parry has to be and if Sonic is going to have another defense mechanism. I think something kinda like DMC royal guard could work,where you have a basic dodge that you use just to get out of harm's way and this special dodge to actually stagger enemies and leave them open for attacks
I think frontiers could have a finisher system. I have one called "Cyber Transgression." Sonic makes a Cyberspace sword, runs towards the enemy and makes various attacks and makes the final blast
the problem with unleashed combat is it gives you no reason not to just mash x imagine if dmc gave you an sss for just hitting one button and all the enemies were cannon fodder who would want to master that
The werehog combat ain't bad at all
@@williamwhite1036 and?
But there is a reason? Its faster to combo and cooler
@@SonicTheBlueBlur15 youre forgetting the time it takes to learn the combos so its faster to just beat the game normally especially since the game will give you an s rank no matter what
That's not accurate, tho.
- The combat offers attributes to each attack, which gives them added benefits when attacking enemies (singular or hordes)
- Keeping a sufficient combo chain allows the player to earn score, which helps with the rank
- Enemies offer unique behavior and group dynamics that forces the player to utilize different combos.
The only case where this kind falters is with the Strength stat, which can be overpowering. But that usually isn't the case until well into the later stat levels, and WHY would you choose to play the boring way?
I would love a more robust combat system from frontiers (combos that trigger the doom blast for advanced movement 🤩), but that’s the thing, “MOVEMENT”. The werehog is slow and trapped
Is it really slow, or do you just slow it down by button mashing?
@ Anyone you can gaslight into thinking the Werehog was fast, give me their contact info. I have some NFTs to sell them
@@michaelcaboose8685 Say you button mash the werehog combat without saying you button mash ther werehog combat
Sonic Frontier's combat is easily at its best when there are multiple enemies in my opinion. So, a huge part of the problem is how often they put you up against single enemies. One mod spiced up a mundane encounter by simply putting that Ares Island sniper enemy in the mix!
I'm not sure what the best option is, but they could refine what they already have and mix up the enemy encounters a bit more... or they could adapt a more Dynasty Warriors approach focused on using Sonic's speed for mass crowd control. I'm currently feeling too lazy to think through how that would work, but Persona 5 Strikers did an amazing job with it and that came from a Turnbased RPG!
Saying Unleashed combat has substance is a bold take. I get it, I love DMC too but that gameplay just doesn't flow into the rest of Sonic's gameplay or encourage you to use the rest of his moveset.
The Frontiers system works great because it's tied directly into your movement. I feel like the main issue with Frontiers feeling stale is that the enimes are kinda boring. They broke the Sonic convention of making enemies die quickly which felt satisfying. Maybe have you go up against multiple enemies more intead of one-on-one fights.
If they ever make a slower paced Knuckles spin-off or something tho then I would love to see a continuation of Unleashed combat.
I fail to see how the Unleashed Combat system can be said to not have substance. They have much more variety, and applications out of combat, thats substance. Meanwhile Frontiers moves are just 3 attacks, twice. (Sonic Boom & Cross Slash, Spin Slash & Cyclone Spin, Wild Rush, Homing Shot & Loop Kick), We could cut Frontiers moves in half, and not very much would change. Meanwhile for Unleashed, if we cut the moves in half, it would be much more notable.
The Frontiers system doenst take into account your movement at all though? You just press a button and snap to the enemies, meanwhile the wherehog, you have to aim your attacks. Regarding enemies dying quickly, Heroes, Shadow, I believe 06, and Unleashed also have you hitting enemies multiple times in combat, its happened before, just not too often is all.
Personally, I'd love to see Sonic have a bigger moveset, maybe even bring some of the Werehogs attack and Sonic-ify them. After all, he DID use them before, now he just needs to put his own.. -spin- on them :] I just wish Frontiers had more unique attacks to use! If Frontiers had maybe double the actual moves, I think Frontiers combat would've been better. I find myself avoiding combat because the moves are so bland, and defeating enemies was pointless by Island 3. There wasnt any reason to get XP, meanwhile in Unleashed, you could beat up every enemy possible and still have plenty of things to use your XP for! Frontiers is ripe for ideas, it has a lot of them, but they're all very ankle-deep. I'm really hoping Sonic team pulls through and starts giving depth.
Though I totally agree on the Knuckles spinoff, Knuckles brawling it out would be sick as hell.
@@switchstar098 I’ve always thought they should tailor the combat style to the character. Like maybe sonics combat is more about being fast, moving around and dealing way more stun than damage. Kinda like Atreus from gow. That way if you picked sonic, you’d be running around, juking enemies and outwitting them into fast combos, as opposed to knuckles who may function more like venom from Spider-Man 2, being able to pick up stunned enemies and throw them, while doing massive damage, eating damage but being slow as heck. And then shadow could be a mix of the 2, mobility and damage.
For my money, a good example of high-speed platforming and DMC combat is Spark the Electric Jester 3. If you wanna make a Sonic with engaging combat, you need to give him options to prevent the spamming of the same options while also having the freedom to avoid it altogether if you want
I kinda wish they would go back to making Sonic's moveset based on him being a fast HEDGEHOG instead of an anime character shooting ki blast and doing parry stances. Remember the insta-shield? Sonic wind? Bounce bracelet? What happened to those moves?
One of those is an item but yea
That take is dumb, not gonna lie.
@@kingabsalon21 Explain what you mean. Maybe you can give me a different perspective.
Yeah it'd be nice for them to utilize his speed more for combat compared to what they went with in Frontiers despite the cool factor of it. Also the bounce bracelet NEEDS to come back for 3D Sonic, it just isn't the same without it
@@StarWyse yo they could make the bounce bracelet a combat move aswell by letting you bounce 3 times on an enemy mid combo
The best improvement for frontiers combat, is simple.
It’s called add a cooldown system, for some of the attacks, The quick cyloop meter, can be used for way more, Remove slowing down time, or freeze time, every time it does an attack. Attacking doing less damage, and being way more fast pace, And add a system, where if you keep spam using the same attack, it will do way less damage, meaning you have to combo. And 2 of my favourite frontiers combat mods, does this which is Reforged combat, For the titan bosses, and new Genesis, for the guardian bosses. And the final combat mod I added, 50% damage nerf for sonic. I believe I downloaded more mods, where I made the ring system, where every time you mess up a parry with super sonic, you lose 30 to 40 rings, or even more ring loss, every time a titan hits you, to justify the 400 rings, but I won’t type that much.
Never thought of it having a cooldown system but it does sound like it would do wonders for making the combat more engaging
I think frontiers could have a finisher system. Like the Spiderman games! You reach an expecific combo number and you make a finisher. (the finisher does not end the enemy instantly)
I think sonic should be stylish with limited or real combo inputs. Frontiers combat is really cool in terms of spectacle, minus the non existent difficulty.
Brain blast: Unleashed combo complexity + Frontiers stylish attacks + Actual difficulty that grows and a HARD MODE BEING HARD PLS 😭😭
@@SallySupra yo imagine using moves like the drift mid combat, like drifting out of a dodge and losing down the enemy with your spin attack, knocking them into an air combo
It does have some really good traits like not being a completely different play style and being able to cancel all the moves into each other which feels very nice. But yeah I think they should just combine the two best traits. Plus I think instead of a skill tree there should be a movelist to buy attacks and change the parry to a guard with a parry.
Great video man really, keep it up!
Never really realized while playing but yeah, frontiers combat might as well not exist. Theyre so not confident in people engaging with it it may as well be an interactive loading screen
An idea I ended up with when thinking about this general topic is something that trends much closer to just normal Sonic boost gameplay than your average hack and slash or the like. And that's because I would straight up combine Sonic's platforming moveset and a combat system into one rather than requiring the player to constantly switch gears between running around at the speed of sound and smacking enemies around.
Specifically, I love the idea of momentum. An energy you get to build up by skillful decision making and well timed actions, which can then be converted into quite a wide variety of effects, depending on the circumstance. In terms of combat, that means dealing damage and knocking enemies around.
Since we already have a currently largely cosmetic, little speedometer in the corner, we might as well use it. Segmenting it into different speed stages, Sonic's true maximum speed must be a challenge to reach, not simply achieved with a press of the boost button, because this speed is what would dictate the possible effects of an attack against an enemy.
Those attacks then would be actually more of a choice of different approaches. Slam into the enemy to launch yourself up, maximizing straight damage but betting all your momentum on your ability to either time a follow-up stomp or somehow get back out of dodge and time like a landing roll for a safer, but only partial speed refund; go low and launch the enemy up, costing you only part of your speed and opening up the enemy for way more follow-ups, but also dealing less burst damage in that one move; springboarding over and past the enemy, dealing minimal damage, retaining basically all your speed and essentially just using them as your typical boost stage launchpad; or just smashing straight on into the enemy to knock them back laterally instead, costing you nearly all your accumulated momentum for maximized damage, so you better have a plan for chasing that enemy back down (if the drop dash speed would scale off of distance fallen, you could catch up to an enemy you launched off way up high in the air with the last of your previous combo's momentum by just laughing in the face of the pythagorean theorem).
The Frontiers homing attack spam may also be feasible as a 0 speed requirement combo extension to just deal a bit of extra damage between big hits and give yourself some breathing room to come up with your next move. Plus, weakpoints should be a thing so juggling the enemy around a bit to get to that spot with a well timed combo finisher would also be a reason to use it.
On the topic of defense then, active, platformery evasion would be the standard, sliding under high attacks, jumping over low ones and just generally staying out of the way of anything more direct than that. However, if enemy attacks are each given well defined and telegraphed directions of momentum, Sonic could reasonably also play off of those.
Moving with the enemy's momentum would not only open the possibility of nullifying the attack's effect due to relativity, but also let Sonic either syphon momentum off of it for his own speed or attack into the enemy's attack for a much more sensible form of the Frontiers parry, overclocking the incoming attack's momentum and sending it right back at the enemy in a manner outside of their control.
Some examples:
The enemy uses a horizontal sweep like the werehog's hook strikes - Sonic can move against the swing's direction and jump for a basic evasion that might cost him a bit of speed unless he finds a way to use his new bit of potential energy; Sonic can move with the swing's direction and dodge into it to briefly hang onto the attacking limb, before slingshotting off with more speed than before; or Sonic can attack with the swing's direction and cause the limb to come arcing back around to smack into the enemy, costing a bit of momentum, but dealing proportionally more damage than it would have been in a direct attack (this does not invalidate direct attacks, since those cash in up to all your momentum, while a parry only uses a small fraction).
Or the enemy uses a downward slamming attack, shockwave included - Sonic can dodge away like normal; Sonic can jump in time with the shockwave to use it as a vertical launcher, gaining way more height and thereby potential energy than normal; or Sonic can follow the slamming appendage down to its impact point, either stomping or otherwise homing attacking down into it to deal not only the expected bit of damage to the enemy, but also pin their attacking limb in place for a couple seconds.
Adding onto the toolkit, some of the higher speeds may include side effects to make maintaining your speed for a time also worthwhile, such as turning Sonic's evasion into the snappy quicksteps, that are currently limited to the semi-scripted autorun sections, or having just drifting in a circle kick up a tornado in the middle to lift all enemies within (yes, this is the cyloop's function, but I prefer physics over cyberspace shenanigans, especially when an effect can be already easily explained by just exaggerating physics).
I like both systems, but there’s a single flaw with both of them. They don’t really encourage moveset exploration. There’s no real reason to use any other move outside of the strongest combos in your arsenal, just look at the Titan fights people just spammed the stomp over and over again. The one thing that requires it somewhat is defensive stances, because enemies guard unleashed sometimes, and enemies in frontiers need to be Looped. If there was a penalty for spamming the same move, or a DMC score based system, I think it would improve it.
That's a very valid point. Kinda wish I brought it up, but not having any incentive to actually using different moves is a make-or-break for these kinds of combat systems. Hopefully moving forward (if there is a future game with combat as a main part of the game again) they implement a ranking system, and hopefully it won't be anywhere near as easy as the normal stage rankings they do with the levels in post-2010 Sonic games
Great video! Keep up the good work! I liked your commentary!
Not gonna lie , sonic in combat styles in games , really needs a change up
And by that meaning, a combat style that fits with the characters personality, I actually came up with some moves that could be used in a next game , and here it is
Upper drill kick ( sonic spins to the enemy, breakdances to confuse them , hit them in midar with a powerful spin kick)
Cyclone spear spree ( Sonic's in a crowd of enemies, he jumps , charges his energy, and spins kicks so fast , he creates a cyclone around him , and spears come out of it )
Drop blast ( Sonic's about to get jumped, sonic jumps real high, charges his spin ball , and drop dashes, causing a powerful blast , killing all the enemies)
Homing laser shot ( sonic jumps, charges his spin ball in midair, and homing attacks the enemies like light bouncing off mirrors in light speed , causing a speedblitz )
Karate blitz ( sonic charges in his peel out form , and runs so fast , creating after images , while hitting karate move at the enemies)
Tornado marathon ( sonic runs around the enemies, causing a powerful tornado , jumps in the tornado, and starts boxing and homing the enemies in midair)
Bullet punches ( sonic charges his energy, he rally up his fist, and makes big magic fists in speeds of bullets )
Additional moves ( chaos spear, chaos blast , time stop and sonic wind )
Sonic abilities ( I'll be using PlayStation controls )
Basics
1 square-punch combo (damage medium range low)
2 triangle-kick (damage low range medium)
3 square triangle-punch double feet kick (damage high range medium) 4 triangle square-kick homing attack (damage medium range high) 5 triangle triangle-spinning kick(damage multi low range circle medium)
6 hold square-uppercut (damage medium range low starts air combo
7 Hold triangle-flip kick (damage medium range low above behind forward)
8 Square square triangle-combo knee (damage high range low) and thats just a few of the basics
Specials
1 R2-boost (damage medium range high)
2 R2 triangle-boost kick (damage high range high)
3 L2-crosh slash (damage low multi range high)
4 L2 square-crosh slash homing shot (damage medium multi range high) and thats not even scratched the surface of its possibilities
I suppose you want to remove the cyloop altogether because there's no button left for it on your controller input.
agree! while I do enjoy Frontiers' combat a lot more (at the point to opening the game multiple times a day just to fight Master NInja+) I completely understand its not perfect, THO, it's the most unique type of combat I've seen in a game period! I really live this like, mix of hack and slash and powerful moves, I even made a concept for improvements for the combat myself! I might do a Sonic fangame based off this concept one day to demonstrate the perfect combat for Sonic (basically the same as Frontiers but radically improved and expanded)
Unleashed combat its nice, I like it (specially as a classic God of War fan) but the main flaw is that
1. it dosen't fit Sonic at all
2. you can complete the whole game with the basic attack, unlike Frontiers where you have many tools and attacks that you can use (even tho its not as much as Unleashed)
I would expand of how the perfect combat system for Frontiers could be but I don't wanna make this comment too long, but yeah, for me
Unleashed wins at the ammount of moves, while Frontiers wins at basically feeling like Sonic when you fight, and its a lot cooler imo.
(for a better experience, I recommend Supercharged Combat or Full Tilt mods, those improve the combat to make them faster because i feel like in the base game some of the attacks are too slowm specially Homing Shot)
If there is another open zone combat game I’d like it if Sonic had really bad defensive options but relied more on his speed to evade attacks, it feels far more accurate to how he fights in comics, tv shows, and even smash to some extent. Some mini bosses in frontiers did try this but all were pretty forgettable and terrible imo. Though to replace the infinite parry they could bring back a form of the insta shield since that basically was a parry in the classic sonic games but I don’t think it would be good to give Sonic’s only defensive option to be a perfectly timed parry. He can have a guard that protects him but it could have multiple downsides such as having lots of end lag or haulting his speed somehow to incentivize using running or the insta shield as better defensive options for openings but have the option there for players who don’t have a full grasp on the combat yet.
I like the concept of his speed acting as his defense, sounds like it'd be fun to master your movement on the spot of tricky situations (also, the insta-shield acting like a parry sounds badass ngl)
I feel like taking some notes from kingdom hearts 3 command combat system could work really well for future sonic game combat. Kingdom hearts command combat is simple fast and engaging. Something that fits perfectly for sonic and may be appealing to casual and hardcore sonic fans alike. Of course some minor changes would need to be made to fit sonic’s fast platformer game dna, and the video game industry standards of action platformers with a mascot character having simple easy to pick up combat, but over all I see a lot of positives to the idea. I feel this would be a good topic for a video and conversation if you and others find interest in tackle the topic😊
I haven't played any of the Kingdom Hearts games, but from how you've described it, it does sound like it could fit Sonic's style pretty well
I think there should be 2 methods of deflecting attacks in frontiers, a guard, which is the same as the base parry, but doesnt allow you to use the grand slam when activated and doesn't slow down time, and an actual parry with proper timing which allows for the grand slam to be used and also would slow time.
Don’t really got much to say, I agree with what you said, great video!
You said some real shit this video, hearing you break down the combat like that really made me realise how barebones and sloped together the combat is. I’m hoping they make the combat better, but from the latest leaks, it seems like they’re keeping the frontiers combat untouched💀
Also I’ll check out your uefn stuff, ground zero looks kinda tuff ngl
what leaks?
@@Norrabal they covered the leaks on sonic show, multiple leakers reported that the newest sonic game will be momentum focused, have a new feature called “surge”, and contain villages of npcs you can interact with. It’s a really early build and it looks like they’re recycling sonic frontiers combat
Honestly sega shoudve asked implemented some moves from unleash or asked their like a dragon sector to give them combat ideas or give them the combat aspects that feels fun or innovative for the blue blur
If I could offer a combat system that works perfectly with Sonic, it's a mix of the combat foundations from Sonic Unleashed mixed with the platforming and movement combat found in Sonic Heroes (I'm surprised you didn't mention that at all).
Haven't played Heroes in years nor do I have the means to play it currently so I felt like adding in my opinion on something I haven't tried in forever would be unfair
the problem with sonic combat is that it needs a new style altogether, no other action game fits it.
he should just have a handful of simple quick attacks and most if not all of them should work while moving or even while homing attacking. and he should never get stuck in an animation like in frontiers.
sonic battle (on the GBA) had some good ideas, like shooting a wave that launches him in the opposite direction. or the air flip kick that hits all around and doesn't affect his momentum. or the quick helicopter kick that gives him a little air time like shadow's chaos spears in generations.
Finally some werehog love
11:36 HELP YOU CAUGHT ME OFF GUARD WITH THAT COMMENT🤣🤣
if they were to implement combat I think a dmc style combat system thay focuses on style would be great. it would just fit sonic very well
4:54 😂😂😂 I like this.
It should be "substance" in combat and style in cutscenes like asura's wrath
5:16 I think it would be more apt to compare the Werehog gameplay to God of War (2005) because Devil May Cry & Bayonetta come from a sub-genre of Hack n Slash called Character Action, which focus more on style, whereas God of War 05 is a more traditional hack n slash
Honestly, I've always disliked the night stages in Unleashed just for how dragged out it would be via the platforming for those stages. I feel like if they were to place Sonic back into that environment with a game about split Speed and Fight stages again it would feel nicer either dropping the platforming until later so the early game doesn't feel so drawn out via fight stages, or by enforcing more speed within said fight stages, not Frontiers fast but faster than how Werehog was at the start of the game. (Early game Unleashed really left a bad taste in my throat I apologize for any bias). It's just the thing about Frontiers is that it feels too weak almost. They couldn't balance him correctly for the fighting and either made it feel like he does nothing or everything dies in like 3 hits. I would love to see Unleashed's style of combat be attempted to be implimented back with the elements they had developed for Frontiers.
Also the parry equally pisses me off especially in the extra story with Super Sonic 2 because they just expect you to know how to perfect parry everything when the game was made around holding said parry button(s) GOD it was terrible, Better choreographing for enemies and an actual parry system would drive a combat based Sonic concept in a very good direction almost alone I believe.
Yeah the slow nature of the werehog just doesn't fit Sonic at all, no matter how good they could've made the platforming and combat. Also I agree with your point on the parry, if it actually acted like one it would've made the combat more enjoyable (alongside better choreography, the wyvern boss for the master koco trial still gets me with how poorly it's implemented)
Heroes and P-06 moveset is perfect imo. I don't want anime fights, I just want moves that fit the character. Like trapping enemies in a blue tornado, spin attack, dash, breakdance kicks, hammer drop (like Mighty in Sonic Mania). And please keep it simple: no combos, no damage numbers, no midair combat, no flashy effects (shockwaves, electricity, sparks,). And also bring back the spindash for every character.
Honestly that's a valid take. Despite my love for hack n' slash combat systems, I 100% understand that it isn't for everyone. Sonic games don't *need* them, but in times that they do (to the extent seen in Frontiers and Unleashed), it's best to point out their flaws in case they ever decide to do it again. Although it would be nice to separate the combat and platforming to their own dedicated controls instead of meshing the two together like they did in Frontiers' Cyberspace levels
Thanks for this! I would also have liked it if you compared Frontiers combat to that of other Sonic games such as Heroes, 06, or even Rise of Lyric. It's worth mentioning that Heroes really distinguished each type of character really well and it really flowed well with the stages, but it's also quite in-depth with the decision making, which is why it's so divisive. 06 had the Shadow combat, which was simple yet fitted the stages well, but it was also quite buggy. And Rise of Lyric, well, it was also simple, but it has some combos and the extra items that you pick up make it more interesting. But combat in Sonic games in general has always been basic. Even the most combat oriented Sonic game, Black Knight, pales in comparison to those have and slash games. I think Frontiers combat has potential, as all it really needs is to make the moves less static and be the actions that you are performing rather than watching. On the other hand, while the Werehog combat is more involved (than the day stages), it also deviates too much from the standard Sonic gameplay which everyone likes, as it's quite slow and repetitive with not that much focus on platforming. So I'm quite conflicted on whether Sonic should even have combat, as while it might add an interest layer to the Sonic gameplay if done right, if it is done too well and is on par with your typical hack and slash game, it might also go too far from the core identity of what Sonic is, so I think it is worth questioning whether or not we should want that, regardless of how fun it is. You can make a similar deduction for all the other alternative gameplay styles which Sonic games have featured through process of elimination and conclude the same thing. But the main reason they really do that is because of padding, which is what many people actually wanted simply for the sake of more playtime and value for money. Also, I'm honestly shocked that they haven't reduced the parry window for Sonic for higher difficulties (and the pop-in), yet they did for the other playable characters.
I wasn't sure if I should include the other games since I haven't really played most of them in years (except for 06 but I don't count that since it was P-06 and not the vanilla game) nor do I have a way to play most of them, but thanks for your support nonetheless!!
@StarWyse That's fair, but your point still stands and is made clear 😄
Don't know how to compare the game with a proper brawling, enemies that attack in groups, having different behaviours, and also all of the combo aside you can pick everyone of them and make different attacks holding them or just making finishers due qte's, or even you can lauch guy in the air and mid-air you can grab him and crush him to the ground like some kind of wrestler - with a 2 attacks and look here, a funky animation for 3 seconds of something worthy of Chinese gacha game with almost no impact.
Problem with Unleashed was never a combat - people hated the werehog, while gameplay was just phenomenal for group of people, that were working on this type of gameplay for a first time - and achieved something like GoW level.
I just wants a traditional Sonic fighting game 😭
What does that even mean ?
Sonic Smackdown
Eh... a fighter z clone ? Why not
@@SallySupra Sonic could do it's own thing instead of copying FighterZ
No like I meant sonic smackdown is a fighter z clone. But of course I agree
This was a pretty good video until you said the night time stages are better than the daytime stages in Unleashed and this is coming from someone who LIKES THE NIGHT TIME STAGES
so now i gotta drop this video down a point, sorry but you know the rules........
i said what i said, no regrets
Ok, what about sonic unleashed combat with sonic frontiers skill progression.
HEROES.
why so many dislikes?! This good!
Bullshit
3:35 Sonic is a discord mod
See, the problem with combat at least my opinion is sonic games gives 0 reason to really try. I've seen frontiers combo clips. What you *can* do vs what you need to do is so drastic. It's simply a by-product of the enemies lack of real thought and the lack of any incentive to try. Sonic games already struggled alot of the time to be more harsh on the S-rank, but since sonic does tend to copy, They really need a ranking system for the next game with combat. So that people start using what little they have to create something that feels good to pull off.
Each move should have some value. Even if initially that's not so obvious and yes, sonic *can* be an anime character but instead of just going all in, use something like the spindash as a form of bread and butter (yes, i'm seriously saying smash version of sonic to be the foundation) but expand on it, for example revving a spindash on a foe can stagger them into another attack like the cyclone kick or wild rush which can then be followed up by a drop dash to keep the flow going)
Not the "I can't believe the game is getting boring the longer I play it" that seems to only ever apply to Sonic and not other popular game series. Keep playing games with excellent combat too and see how that goes (no different).
Sonic Unleashed has the best boost formula stages in the series. Generations just has the more traditional and more platform-present level design, which is why you prefer it. That's fine, but in terms of what game actually properly uses and best emphasizes the boost-style philosophy, it's hands down Unleashed.
Sonic being purely a platformer will kill the game series. (The genre is still dead in the grand scheme of things.) Mario of all dang platforrmer series doesn't even stick solely to platforming. Platformers are also historically known for having other playable characters with vastly different playstyles and/or other genres as gameplay elements (racing, shooting, beat em up, mech, etc), so it's never been an issue that Sonic has done this too. This started much before SA1 as well, in the classic era.
Most of your Frontier combat arguments were done on ignorant premises, which just can't go unmentioned tbh. I'm not even going to go over half of them but just a few. Hitting/having multiple enemies is neither difficult or rare, it's actually common. I don't know what's going on in your playthroughs but it tends to be harder for me to actually fight enemies 1o1 without hitting more than one target... then again you probably have Sonic stats maxed out and abuse cross slash early on. Anyways, another thing is that Sonic has not 1 but 2 launch attacks in the game, making it that more glaring how you're so unaware of this for a combat. And a cool thing is, unlike in Unleashed, you can KEEP flinging enemies upwards provided they got the health for it. (You can also spike enemies and send them flying, all of which you should frickin know at least.)
I never said I wanted Sonic to purely be a platformer. While I admit I could've gone over my complaints with the Frontiers combat better than I did in the video, but I still stand on most of my points made. Also yes, while I did have max stats in the gameplay, I tried my best not to abuse any one move for the video to one-sidedly prove my point or anything. I'm sorry for having my frontiers portion come off as ignorant, I will try my best to remedy that issue for any future videos I plan on making.
Any, just give me more speedy platform level instead of crappy combat systems
0:23 goddamn that transition is baller asf
werehog is fun, not much substance tho
Just Steal the combat system from Transformers Devastation, it has both style and substance.