EP 148: Identity Indoctrination and the Black Hole of Gender
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- Опубликовано: 1 фев 2024
- EP In this episode, Sasha and Stella explore the complexities facing therapists curious about supporting gender dysphoric patients. Join us for a well-rounded take on investing in the process, embracing client-therapist dynamics, managing differing worldviews, and leaning into the fundamental therapeutic value of asking questions.
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Maybe today "Gender Dysphonia" has morphed and it has less to do with being confused? The notion of a child "feeling incongruence" is perhaps incorrect? I can certainly see it at a younger age but as the grow it becomes less about confusion and more about desire. The spike we see is simply the children being indoctrinated and having a "belief system" (a set of values) that they can choose a sex rather than "accept" the one they are assigned. They dont "believe" they are the opposite sex - its more a desire to become the opposite sex. Why?
1.Boys want to desperately escape the thought of becoming a man because everything they have been taught and internalized concerns how bad they are and they too will be "just like their father".
2. For girls this is realizing they want to escape becoming a woman because the cards are stacked against them as a woman. They are "condemned to have children" (and what an awful thought that is). There are these incredible pressures that becoming a woman means you must be super human given the expectations to be great. This implies doing things that might not actually align to your actual desires or interests. Rather, you are doing things aligned more to being a man. "Girl power" means you should grow up to compete with men, demonstrate your superiority in sciences, business and other "non-traditional" vocations (police, firefighter, military). The other narrative is girls are also going to grow up and become little more than targets for misogyny, harassment and rapists. Girls look in the mirror and admit: "life is just better as a man" and perhaps "I can become a better man and be a model for other men". Then comes the issue attraction. Rather than admiration of the physique of the body of a well defined young man (think: Michelangelo's David), a girl has learned she can become what she desires. This allows her to be free of "girl body image" issues and become something admired.
3. The non-binary is simply someone who is a little more mature and choosing to "opt-out" of the sex/gender game. You can expect this group to grow.
There are people who specialise in deprogramming people captured by cults. It might be interesting to speak with them - might learn something?
Hello Stella and Sasha, before I say anything else I've been working my way through the Denver Conference and I can confidently state that there will never be a better conference on Gender Ideology. Every contributor was easy to understand because they were using plain english, backed by science without any of the mumbo jumbo beloved of the Gender Cult. Bravo. Frank Jackson.
And now there's this, WPATH Files, Hallelujah !
Sasha, I was so pleased to see you quoted and referenced in the New York Times today. You and Stella are helping us reach a tipping point--where we suddenly come to our collective senses. Thanks for all you are doing and persevere because it matters.
"Body horror" is how I first came to gender critical thinking. It seemed to me that any sexual predilection or preference or mental state that leads you to have body parts removed is wrong and delusional, a priori. This was a gut feeling, upon which I built a bigger understanding. It had the opposite effect on me from what you are describing. I didn't check out, I checked in.
Wow, I'm a primary care physician and found this discussion so helpful. In my training we were even taught the basics of therapy and at the very least establishing therapeutic relationships but sometimes this gender stuff feels so different. I realize I have the best results when I do not antagonize and instead I build relationships and over time the discrepancy prevents itself.
I like the advice to "ask questions". Ask don't tell is generally a great rule of thumb. The problem arises when one deals with people that endlessly "tell" in order to illicit confirmation of their own beliefs, as so many people who are absolutely certain that they are right do so often. The stronger the belief, the more the person will test you with absolutist statements in order to confirm their own perspective (are they unconsciously unsure?) It is exhausting to exist in such an environment and almost impossible not to step on people's egos.
I am again reminded of David Bell talking about clinicians at the Tavistock belittling colleagues that favoured a more psychological approach as believing in "that Freudian shit", even as their own methods were increasingly being questioned.
Yep, that's me, I'm terrible!
Once again an important conversation. It is logical, which is problematic when you deal with the captured and the indoctrinated. We must get to the source of gender indoctrination and build resilience in our children. The indoctrination is happening in the elementary schools and it starts with capturing hearts and minds of children - this becomes part of the child core values which is nurtured by the positive reinforcement a child hungers for. My sense is parents must prepare their child for the loads of BS that are going to destroy any hope for personal agency. We do this by reinforcing a gender binary well before they start school - parents must do this overtly with clear books, reading together and talking with your child subtle reinforcing core values. When the triggers happen at school they will be ready and you can also clarify.
Happy St.Brigids Day! 😊
Great episode. My personal takeaway was the concept that some - especially autistic- people aren’t insightful enough for therapy & it can take time. Also - as long as I’ve been in this world i somehow first thought the girl at the Barbie party was offered tea!😂 Thanks to both of you for your continued dedication ❤
Hear many similarities between how parents and how therapists should approach kids claiming trans identities - lots of listening and asking questions and a focus on building the relationship
Happy new year to Stella and Sasha
I haven't had a chance to watch the yet, but I still give it a thumbs up because I'm so excited to see Stella and Sasha back!
I recognize that you make your living elsewhere but still find time to produce content. thank you, well done!!
So happy to see a new episode!
Thanks!!
Fantastic episode 💚💚
About halfway through and I'm really getting an insight into why I have never really had much benefit from therapists. The way of thinking is just not for me, it makes me feel objectified and insecure. And the second guessing about what is going on has IME been really detrimental: either I feel really un-respected (no, that my dad is gay is really not a salient factor in my life, shut up about it already), or I start to try to please the therapist by talking about what they believe is important. The latter is actually worse than the former.
That said I've had massive *therapeutic* benefit from working with MH clinicians who come from a base of medicine, nursing or social work (one even a psychologist!). Probably because they have been able to switch into a much more practical, symptom- and QOL-based approach, which then has built trust between us.
I can't delve into feelings, because those are mysterious and unregulated, weird and very often not true (as in the strength of the physical sensation doesn't correlate with the actual importance or truth of a feeling). But if I really trust a MH professional I can welcome their insight as we together observe the weird ways my nervous system/body translates what my brain is worried about.
I was lucky in that I was a young adult in a time when there was still good quality in-patient care. The practical approach of good in-patient staff literally save my life. That helped me get some tools to cope. Not about feelings or reasons, but about being in the moment, eating, sleeping, conversing, going on walks, balancing the day. Not ruminating, not feeding into the crying or the frantic interests or whatever maladaptive stuff my wonky brain was trying to push.
Sometimes listening to Stella and Sasha is a fascinating trip into "normal land" (and particularly Female Normal Land). Thank you for that. Even at 50+ "normal human" can still seem mysterious to me.
Great session. Thanks.
Good to know you exist!
I love how you guys are deliberate and strategic thinkers and aren't working in your ego. You are humble but authoritative and knowledgeable and this discussion shows it.
Love you both so much!
Stella, your analogy of Facebook and twitter-your perspective is such a delight at times(!). 🤭
Wow, Stella's words about using chess to distract herself and how aggressive it is struck home. I do chess puzzles obsessively to avoid dealing with things but I play the bots rather then real human beings, because of how emotional I can get - lol!!!
I can confirm that chess is like war and that we bring all of our character traits to our game.
26:00 Sometimes things you think bother people don't bother them that much. I was like that. Not sure its actually a good idea to try to talk people into being more upset about something because you perceive it should upset them? As a teen there was a lot of unpleasant drama in my home between my parents but that was NOTHING in comparison to what the pain of not fitting in with my peers felt like. That literally felt like the end of the world, the family drama was not a priority to me. I think in teen years self image & social standing with peers becomes the predominant concern
No more Spotify? I like you tube but prefer the other. Mostly Just glad to be able to hear you both again.
We're still on Spotify and Apple Podcasts and all the other platforms. If the episodes aren't showing up on Spotify, for some reason, please let us know!
I like your hair Sasha
I hope she's wearing a Maxi shirt! Or at least Culottes. Very 1974.
That bit on the end about "holding on to symptoms" is really interesting, yes please do something more about that!
I do wonder if the enthusiasm for trans might be partly rooted in a backlash against a traditional psychologising view of "symptoms", and this general trend over the last 30+ years of "optimising health".
We are just tired of trying to conform to a view of "healthy". Especially if we have been "good girls".
There's something very freeing in embracing your pathology°. You have tried so hard to be just the right amount of emotional/friendly/practical/social/sporty/experimenting. And then here's this thing that says "screw that! Just be you!". Which is good, but then you are swimming in a social pool where dis-ease and interventions are social currency... What could have been peer-support on the edges turns into a central project.
And there might even be a tie-in to autistic black and white thinking here. From an aspie-adolescent (at whatever age, LOL) POW all the "health" (both mental and physical) messages are really overwhelming. They already were ~40 years ago, and today it is just insane. And when there is actually something different or wrong (some aut-traits are not to oddities, they are objectively baad, as in causing suffering, chronically disturbed circadian rhythm for example) with you it would be SUCH a relief to find a culture that doesn't try to "normalise" you.
The bad is of course that this attractive "be you!" and "gender is whatever you want it to be" is then coupled with actual physical interventions that are not harmless or reverseable. It is like half of the care pathway is totally disjointed from the other half. There was one guest on this show (can't remember the name unfortunately) who had run groups with pre- and post- physical transition people together, and it felt like that might be a good model - that would give people a more realistic view of what transition actually entails.
°Just a small anecdote on this, and how really warped a spectrum girl can become about "trying to be normal":
When I discovered the autistic spectrum at around 20 years of age I felt empowered to think about what I really liked, instead of trying to "become better/more normal". I gave up on trying to teach myself to like loads of chili and garlic! (both very much in vogue for that place and time) How freeing! Nowadays I like both in moderation, and am not ashamed of asking for "Indian mild or European medium" when I fancy a curry :-).
(Next thing in this taste-journey was wine. I usually prefer a semi-dry, light German/middle Europe wine. And I'm not ashamed of it! Usually when I get to chose people actually like my wine choices, though they might swear up and down that they only drink "really dry" wines...)
Check out our substack for a bonus episode on this very topic that was released today! Go to www.widerlenspod.com Thanks for watching!
Back! Normal Friday again.
I am offended by the disparagement of chess as a maladaptive coping mechanism! 😂 perfectly fine mental leisure activity.
So glad you are back! But I would not blame you for wanting to leave gender in the rear view mirror for a long while and just live life. I hope you both take care of yourselves! 💜
I still use the same motto when playing chess that my dad taught me when I was little. "Attack, attack, attack. Kill, kill, kill."
You ladies affirm my gender and yours 😮
I worry about my obsession with the gender / trans issue. Ive been trying to cut back. I feel guilty for listening to this.
@widerlenspod you two should reach out to Andrew Gold a lovely journalist turned RUclipsr who knows alot about cults and also been questioning the trans movement in the UK. I an American but watch him faithfully. Reach out to him.
Stella you mentioned that a journalist finished an interview asking ,"well what about true transsexuals".
Do you think she was alluding to the views that I describe below.
'Homosexual transsexuals are "true" transsexuals whereas autogynaephiles are "transvestites" , even post op'.
I know a person cannot change their biological sex but do you think it would be helpful to defuse rows with feminists if the word woman was removed, so mtf trans women were called trans feminines and ftm trans men were called trans masculines.
I have never yet seen any row with feminists being effectively diffused. Changing these language features will not convince them of anything and Stella is best to focus on her work in the therapeutic realm. From what I have seen of the cackle of feminists in this latest jab at the work Genspect does is that they have a severe lack of understanding about how the therapeutic realm must tread a very different path with individual clients, and also with peers and governing bodies, compared to the average women’s and children’s rights activists out on the street. The later can take on a stridency that is clearly counterproductive when working with clients in therapy who may have beliefs that are not yet aligned with ‘True- GC activism orthodoxy’. I can appreciate elements of both sides’ approaches when the time and place requires a particular modus operandi.
That said, I do think feminism is an ideology all of its own and its ever shifting orthodoxy often contains as little forgiveness as the trans activist side of the debate! Just a few of my thoughts . Cheers. VC
After going into the black hole of gender myself and becoming fascinated with the definition of 'woman' being changed to include natal males and what that means for women and society as a whole I have reached this exact same conclusion. If we accept that gender is different to biological sex ( I can see how this is useful in this debate) then trans women should indeed be trans feminines.
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What is a "true trans" person? "A person whose GI doesn't match their sex" from what I've seen... which oc entails *faith* that an incongruity in one's self concept of sex derives from a metaphysical spiritual essence.
People tell me it's "knowledge" not faith that informs their view.
And when I ask abt what compromises their knowledge... the answer, (if they answer at all) is how they feel and essentially what stereotypes appeal to them.
Can it be that a majority of ppl who believe in gender identity theory don't comprehend the difference between subjective and objective?
There's no proof that GI exists, and oc none that it doesn't either... bc it's a religion.
And I don't really care if ppl believe in it, what I care about is it being treated as if it is objective and the social, medical, and legal ramifications of that, incl the expectation that everyone else in society conforms, and if you don't you're a hateful bigot.
I don't pray to Allah. I don't eschew Christmas or birthdays like Jehovah's witnesses.
GI beliefs are not exceptional and should not be treated as such, by therapists or anyone else.
If I was constantly denigrated by any group for not holding the same beliefs... I would probably grow to despise that group for their intolerance and authoritarianism.
That is what the activism around GI is accomplishing in the general population from what I see... the more the ideology is pushed, the worse it's getting. It's a mess.
Yes. And I think there is also a lack of understanding of other aspects of language. The metaphor "transwomen/men are women/men" is not a valid metaphor, but to use the simile "transwomen/men are like women/men" is true.
Masculinity and femininity hormones feelings presentation very different male female biological
Good move getting out of Patreon, they are insufferably Woke, they colluded with Visa to blacklist a couple of You Tube channels I watch.
I'm glad you got off of that awful platform Patreon, but having multiple tiers on Substack? I'm sure *someone* will pay for that, but why? There's a little too much talk about marketing and business in this episodes, which seems aimed more at other therapists than most of your episodes. I was really excited for a great guest after your long break, and you rewarded my excitement with one of your most boring, banal episodes ever.
I think the time has come for you to bring on guests with whom you at least partially disagree.
Are you providing the gender ideologues with ammunition? The counselling/therapy discussion is valuable; however, it sounds a little like conversion therapy when you try to "un-indoctrinate"? I can already hear scream of unethical, coming from the trans-movement). People need to take back the narrative and acknowledge "Gender Affirming Care" is the gold standard of conversion therapy. This all reminds me of the the emperor's new clothes mean?
The idiom that refers to something widely accepted as true or professed as being praiseworthy, due to an unwillingness of the general population to criticize it or be seen as going against popular opinion for fear of retribution. In this case the child grows in a bubble: protected, affirmed, praised and this continues until they enter a wider culture and the wrong pronoun is used and a melt down ensues. The person isn't playing along and affirming the adult-child's delusion. This is the starting point when risk for self-harm can begin to fester - when the adult-child's false world view falls apart.
You say y’all and genspect are not against gender nonconformity yet I don’t think either of you have stated unequivocally that Phil Illy was welcome to attend your conference and that the uproar about him attending was unfounded. Have either of you made such a statement or even truly feel that way? Very curious. Seems like Phil, as a male who in no way ids as female would be an ideal sort of gnc fellow for y’all. I wonder what the problem was? 🙄🙄🙄
Phil advocates for his own particular form of gender ideology. He believes trans is legit, including trans medicalization.
The issue was not the clothes that he wore, but that he, as he freely admits, has a sexual fetish based on wearing those clothes. It is perfectly reasonable for him to be involved in the conference, but when there are groups within those interested in the conference that have been badly affected by men carrying out that fetish, which often requires the participation of those around them, it is bound to cause distress when he turns up in an outfit that suggests he is bringing his fetish with him.
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