FWIW Lee doesn't recommend forming 300blk with their dies. "The Lee 300AAC full length sizing die is designed to resize 300AAC cases to pre-fired dimensions. Lee rifle sizing dies do not size the fired case all the way back down to SAAMI minimum. Through experience Lee has found that the chambers of most guns are large enough and sizing the cases to minimum unnecessarily overworks the case and results in shortened case life. The 300AAC full length sizing die is often used to reform 223 or 556 cases to 300AAC cases. Results will vary when this is attempted because the Lee die is a sizing die and not a forming die. Forming dies have smaller dimensions to account for the increased spring back that is encountered when cases are formed. Forming die dimensions are at least at minimum SAAMI if not below. The amount of spring back also varies as a result of case wall thickness or hardness. So you will find that you may be able to reform some cases satisfactorily with a Lee sizing die and others not at all. Another factor that can come into play is the thickness of the case neck on reformed case. As you leave the neck area of the case and move into the shoulder and body side wall area the brass gradually thickens the closer to the case head you get. When you shorten the 223 or 556 case you begin to get into thicker metal and if it is too thick the loaded diameter of the cartridge neck can become too large and create chambering and live round ejection problems. Not to mention the possibility of dangerously high chamber pressures due to bullet pinch. Here is the process that seems to work with the greatest degree of success if you wish to attempt to reform cases with your Lee sizing die. Trim the cases and after lubing with Lee Resizing Lube size the cases in the full length die with the decapper/expander rod removed. After this first sizing re-lube the cases and size them one more time with the decapper/expander rod installed. This seems to work for many but not all cases. Hope this helps. Thanks, Peter Customer Service Lee Precision, Inc. 4275 Highway U Hartford, WI 53027 phone: 262-673-3075"
I have had trouble using my friends lee die to form my brass. Not so much the forming process gave me trouble, or the shooting, but trimming with my WFT after the fact would not result in consistent lengths. When my rcbs small base die came in all was great.
Thanks! I will give that a try. When resizing with the expander mandrel, the end of the case mouth looked pretty ugly. It was going better after using a lot more lube. I bet running them through the resizing die, then trimming, then running them through again with the pin will help a lot.
Jon Bidinger bro, thank you so much for this. Newer reloader here and just got some once fired brass from Etsy for a really good deal. I wasn’t expecting perfection, the brass I got was beautiful looking and all LC however they appears to be slightly off when dropping them in the lyman ammo checker. When resizing with my Lee FL it was making the fitment worse! After reading this comment I took the expander out and just sizing without the expander is allowing for perfect fitment and 100% reliability. Thank you SO MUCH
You tube has been very hard on johnnys reloading bench unfortunately. They dont like his content, It contains facts and knowledge they dont want put out.
Thanks, dude! I really appreciate all the support. This series is only getting longer and longer. I feel like I'm on the verge of some breakthroughs that will improve my 300 blackout ammo a lot. It's well worth the time to explore this stuff thoroughly!
@@JohnnysReloadingBench I know this is an older video, but in several of them you were flaring the case mouth to prevent bullet shaving. I'm wondering if that might have had some effect on the neck tension, even though you were crimping the cartridge as well. Could annealing make a difference in neck tension? I've watched most of your videos and have wondered several times about the concentricity and diameters of the flash holes. could that make a difference on the accuracy and primer performance if there's some variation from case to case? I've been reloading for nearly 50 years and have never thought to try some of the variables that you have. (way back when. we didn't have as many choices as we have today). GREAT videos.
I love your channel Johnny... You make great videos. I hate to be critical, but when you were measuring the expander OD, a caliper can't be trusted for such a precision measurement. They are a tool of convenience. You need a micrometer with 1/10s resolution. I use a Starrett No.230 to measure bullet diameters and such. It would be a handy tool for your bench. I would recommend a Starrett or Mitutoyo, stay away from the Chinesium imitations. Keep up the good work!!!
Having worked for a major bullet manufacturer. The type of measurements are good. However one thing you did not consider by not crimping the bullet in the case. Allows the the bullet to change its alignment while feeding into the chamber. The way the projectile contacts the feed ramp, length of the bullet to contact point to the case is critical. By this a bullet with a longer ogive will cause the bullet to cant upward away from the feed ramp. This in turn causes the bullet to not align properly into the chamber. A taper crimp is critical to help hold the bullet in correct alignment from reloading. Of all the testing we did in reloading, the crimp and COAL were the most common problems for larger deviations in loading. Crimping is the most critical part. Taper crimp for longer ogive bullets, roll crimp for shorter round nose bullets. If a bullet is not aligned before contacting the lands, essentially it becomes a pinball affect before entering the barrel. I hope this helps clear up some of the mystery about grouping. Just a helpful hint, crimping is probably the most critical part to maintain bullet alignment before detonation.
Awesome, Awesome video again. Thank you! Let me try to help you with the wording conundrum you got yourself in towards the end :-) When most metals deform, this is what happens. Initially, with small deformations, the metal only experiences elastic deformation. That means that if you stop deforming it, it will return to the initial dimensions exactly. In this elastic stage, the more you deform the metal, the more it resists. In the case of expanding the case mouth, that means the smaller the mouth, the more neck tension it provides..... so far so good. If you continue to deform the metal even more, you reach a point in which the deformation is so large that the metal starts exhibiting plastic deformation. Now the elastic deformation doesn't simply disappear at this point. It's still there, but you're starting to add plastic deformation. In the case of brass, plastic deformation contributes less neck tension per deformation unit so you can really call that "the point of diminishing returns".Once you get to plastic deformation, and then remove the external force, the metal will no longer return to it's original dimensions. It will still contract, just not the original dimension. This is essentially what the forming/resizing dies do. Bullet seating however should only keep the brass in the elastic region as there is little to nothing to gain from having your bullet behave as a second expander ball.
OMG.....I saw you used a red marker on the RCBS die and green on the Lee..........My OCD is about to short circuit my brain. You did that on purpose didn't you? LOL.
Hornady and RCBS dies always made me think of painful skin injuries with their threaded shafts that stuck out so far. Maybe silly, but in most any other type of machinery those would not be allowed as they are too easy to miss and injuries happen easily. I just looked and I have Lyman, Lee and Redding dies in 300BLK but I have come to admire Hornadys seating die lately.
Good video. Thanks for pointing out the differences with 300blk mags. Also someone did point out the same thing I wanted to, which was to match the die and shell holder brands. Don't mix and match. Causes variance in headspace dimension
Just got into reloading after regretting not doing it before Covid. Started the other day by finally seeing H110 in-stock locally. $40. Bought a pound. Then I bought the RCBS 300blk sb 2-die set and a Hornady 380 3-die set. Gotta start somewhere. I still need a few sets of dies and all of the other stuff but at least I’m somewhat in the game now. Primers have been my unicorn. Funny enough, I seem to find them when I’m out of funds 🤷♂️
Wow all these non stop issues made my head hurt. You would be wise to just quite an buy manufactured ammo as no one should everr have these many issues reloading anything whatsoever. However, you having most likely saved many others the huge headaches that they otherwise might have had. So well done
I have never considered the relative position of the decapping pin extension and its location to keep the expander ball below the case neck. I really enjoy your videos. Thanks
One hack that I did for my p mags in 5.56 for use with 300 BLK was to take a file to the top two or three inches of those ribs that run up the inside of the magazine and forming them to look like those 300 BLK specific mags. You don't need to do the entire magazine from bottom to top, the top two or three inches will be fine since all you really want it to do is not cant the top bullet towards the center. After I knocked that easy 5 minutes job out I no longer had failure to feeds since the rounds were oriented towards the chamber better. In fact now that I come to think of it around the time that I modified my p mags in August was about the time that I noticed a huge improvement in accuracy out of my 10.5 inch KAK value line barreled AR pistol. Probably just like you I was having an issue with the tip of some of my rounds slamming into the chamber face off center and pushing the bullet some random amount further into the case.....thus causing differences in pressure between rounds. No es bueno. Since then I went from 3 inch groups at 100 yards to just over 1 inch and my best group at 200 yards was 2.86" with very little vertical stringing...just left to right spread. It was a little windy that day too so in perfect condition that could possibly improve some more; as long as I do my part. All with fiocchi 125 gr sst rounds. So not even all that expensive of a round, but one hell of a shooter though. I really do wonder if a lot of the inaccuracies of a lot of people's equipment is just this problem randomly popping up? Great video sir and honestly discovering your channel got me into reloading. I just loaded my first set of 308's and 300 BLK for testing. Cheers!
PS 8 discovered your channel through your TC Compass videos while I was researching whether to buy one or not. That's another great video series. Kudos mate.
Do you have access to a bigger range to shoot? I think it would be cool to test the 6.5 Grendel and the recent MK 262 loads at varying distances. Just curious. Thanks for all the time you put into these videos
The Lee one is the easiest. You made it hard. install the die with the pin low and only snug. Run it down on a decapped piece of brass. The pin is now sitting on the base of the brass. loosen the collet, and nudge the pin up a sixteenth, and reef that collet down hard. It now is trouble free. I would say that the 3 300BO decappers I have handled from lee had a lot of lathe marks and put a lot of drag on the brass. Chucking them up in a hand drill and polishing with 1000 grit oiled sand paper makes for a much smoother experience.
The lee die also comes with a crimp die in the set for the purpose of consistent neck tension and reliability in auto loaders. Have you given it a try?
It's great to be able to see problems you come across in your process that are extremely helpful in trying to get things right without going through all the pain and suffering you did haha. I'm curious. Do you uniform the primer pockets after swaging or reaming the crimp? I notice you use the #41 primer which a lot of people have had trouble seating properly.
Are you switching shell holders when you switch to a different die? Unmatched shell holders may make all the difference in headspace measurements. BTW! this is the best reloading channel by far. thankyou
If you did not anneal those chopped off cases, they are not ready to form to 300 blk. Way too much spring in the body section of the brass which becomes the 300's neck.
By the way on your Lee die to get it tighter try this undersize mandrel. Lee # 90480. It costs 4 bucks ...plus if you can't get your Brass to shoulder up you might check out the competition shell holders from Redding. I think there the # 10's. Great videos keep them coming.
The Redding Competition Shell Holder Set is 5 Shell holders they are stepped down -2,-4,-6,-8 .... It would be interesting to see how they perform. Part #359546.
Place your collet bullet puller in your press and use a fishing scale to see how many pounds it takes to remove each bullet. You could use it to see which brass holds better and which die causes more neck tension. Any spring-type scale with a stopper will work. Or maybe even a digital scale. You would just place the scale on the Press handle when you pull up to remove the bullet
was the bullet centered in the case?? the lake city grew in the mag when it was chambered multiple times. Would neck tension hold the round constantly in the same location to help grouping??. good video, Quality Control begins with getting repeatable results time after time.
When you cut down lake city brass you should try annealing the brass. Lake City brass is annealed but you cut that part off. The brass sizes easier and has better spring to retain the seated bullet. I like to anneal, lube, size without a decap/inside mouth mandrel. I will run the brass a second time to size with the mandrel in place. Case forming like this gives the neck and shoulder less stress. Then all you worry about is sizing the neck the 2nd time through. It works good for me. Oddly, I trim to length, end up short after forming, and get back to the trim length after the 2nd sizing.
Black box RCBS 300 blk dies work ok except the de cap stem stripped the threads out of the neck ball after I had done only about 500 cases. Apparently this is a common occurance because they offer a free replacement stem assy on their web site. My problem with that is why should I get a free replacement of something that will fail the same way again? I got the Lee dies and have had no further problems in this area. As for trimming, Forster has a drill press trimmer that works well, if you have a drill press. I load commercially, so any wasted time is to be avoided. I like the drill press trimmer because it,s easy to set up and quick to do large quantities of trimming, if needed.
Thank you for the informative video. I have had good luck with a Hornady sizing die in 300 BLK. The neck expander ball seems to work well and not stretch the case much.
I’m way behind on this blk out stuff. I just finished a pistol build, went with a 9” ballistic advantage barrel and also just got into reloading as well, forming brass etc... I’ve learned a lot from these videos and other research. So far I think I’m on the right track, however I haven’t even shot the gun yet. Reading all the comments are helpful too. Thx
Just curious, have you ever taken the seating stem out of a RCBS taper crimp seating die, and used it as a crimp die? I'm using a micrometer seating die, and taper crimping with the RCBS seater, it's been working much better than the Lee factory crimp die for me in 300 Blackout. I do use a Lee crimp die in several other calibers, just got inconsistent results in 300 Blackout.
Great video and research. Here's another question to throw in the mix. I saw the cases were fairly suited up, meaning they are not expanding enough to seal the chamber. A little around the neck should be ok, but I saw it all the way back to the rim of some of your brass. Just a thought.
BTW, the way i usually measure neck tension is to measure the neck of a sized case and then of a loaded case and subtract the difference. I wish you had measured the OD of the sized cases and then again after loading. .002" seems to be the magic number IMO.
Could you please tell me what the meaning of the 'C' on the end of a measure in grains in a reloading chart? For example, 19.0C gr of IMR 4227. Thanks!
I would try all 3 crimp types. Lee collet factory crimp, roll crimp, and taper crimp. At different levels. I know you already tried something similar earlier. Just my 2 thoughts.
Would be interesting to know if your Lee die has out of spec neck mandrel. He always preaches .002" in his book for neck tension. Also he specifies .002" is max neck tension. Also would interesting to see Lee Neck Sizing die also run. Could be Gemtech brass is harder and thus resizes more on bullet seating versus LC. Also could try the new Starline brass too. So far my inclination is that Gemtech brass is harder and work-hardening further leading to your accuracy issues.
I modified my Lee cap with a 7/32 drill followed by a 1/4-28 NF tap to allow me to run an RCBS expander in my Lee sizing die. This was partly because I wanted to be able to remove the decapping pin for some already primed cases. I can always swap another cap from another die set, if I need to. Thanks.
Maybe I missed it, but did you trim all cases to the exact same length before testing? If your testing for neck tension wouldn't you want all cases to have the same amount of brass contacting the bullet?
Johnny, I ran into the same issues. I started with a Lee Dies, and wasn't happy with the tiny shoulder it produced and had accuracyissues with it.. I got the RCBS, and it was better, and finally I got the Forster and it is the one that I use now for all my brass. It produces as nice shoulder and is very consistant.
I've become a bigger fan of Forster with every die I buy. Their full length sizing die, a micrometer seater die, and a Lee factory crimp die make a pretty good combo!
Reloaders, what’s your take on bullet to rifling freebore jump with all of these different .308 bullet shapes and lengths? I’ve loaded 150’s to kiss the lands, and loaded short 110’s to make a sizeable jump. What have y’all experienced with accuracy by seating at different depths? I’m curious to hear if you have similar results to my test loads. 300BLK experience only please.
Why do you set the Lee die like qthat? The decap should be flush and tight, no reason to move or remove it unless you stick a case. Insert the die with the press extended,run the die to contact shell holder, give extra 1/4 turn, adj the lock ring. I've had no issues.
I think the Forster die was just slightly slower in velocity than the other two due to its' extra case length when sizing. When sized to the same COAL its' projectile sits further out from the main case body compared to the other two resulting in slightly lower pressure and as a result velocity. Makes sense then that the Lee die would produce a slightly faster velocity than the RCBS as well. This is assuming that u were able to set COAL EXACTLY the same for all three dies. The way to validate this is using Quickload software and compare what the result is for adding a little to case length to a load while keeping case capacity the same.
My buddy's forster fl die for his 6.5 grendel sets the shoulder back .010" when compared to fired brass. That's setting up the die per instruction manual. I looked into it because after five or six firings using hornady brass, he experienced case head separation.
I did not see you anneal the Lake City brass after you trimmed it, you may have but if you didnt, i think it may have been more flexible therefore grabbed onto the bullet better I believe. I totally got what you where saying about the neck ball sizeing reaching a plateau or only so much tension. This video helped me a Lot, I was just about to buy 300 blackout dies today. I will wait till I see a little not of your series but I do like that foster die
I am using a Forster die to form my converted 300 BLK brass. I have had excellent results with Lake City brass. You are exactly on point with annealing. If you are converting .223/5.56 brass to 300 BLK, it is absolutely essential to anneal if you want to have any consistency not only in forming but proper neck tension. Neck tension is not simply a matter of proper dimension but also dependent on proper hardness.
I’m using the RCBS die in a Lyman Brass Smith, and my once fired cases are getting stuck. Anyone have the same problem? Cases have been cleaned decapped and lubed but about 3 out of 4 cases are getting stuck. I ordered a Lee Pacesetter die in hopes of that bing the better die. Any thoughts?
A sample size of one for the bullet stretch test... Plus you said you lubed the inside of the mouth on a couple so that the expander ball would be lubed. So some got more or less lubrication. I've never heard of anyone lubing the expander ball. Personally I would throw those test results out completely.
Rewatching your series. Crescent wrench will ruin your Lee locking nut pretty quickly, learned this from experience, best to use real 3/4" wrench on the die body and 1/2" wrench on top. The whole idea about hitting berdan primers and having the rod slide up doesn't work if you got crimped primers, you learn to tighten that sucker very tight.
Cartridge brass alloy definitely varies. Different cases are going to have different neck "spring-back" based on the alloy, neck thickness, and number of firings. If Lee even sells it(?), a neat test would be to pick up a collet neck die for 300 BLK, and several different mandrel sizes. You might be able to determine that exact point of completely diminished returns for all the different cases you're using. As you state, at a certain point increased sizing won't offer more grip, and will just degrade ammo concentricity.
Dustysa4 Lee does sell a collet neck sizing die but have only seen it in a 2 die set about $29. But would be interesting because the collet helps to work out uneven neck thickness too. Use his forester to bump shoulder back and size case and collet die to size the neck.
Since you are able to measure wall thickness, you can measure the OD of the case neck, subtract the wall thickness, and get a decent ID measurement. Also, investing in some high quality 1 inch micrometers from ebay, as well as better digital calipers such as Mitutoyo would pay dividends. By nature, calipers are only accurate +/- .001", so it cracks me up when reloaders on you tube acknowledge the .0005" from the lower quality digital calipers (it only cracks me up cause I fell for it too back in the day, I know these guys are all intelligent and I respect and learn from them). FWIW, I'm a 20 year xperienced machinist/toolmaker who is becoming an engineer, so I've made my living using precision measuring tools.
Be sure you don't confuse accuracy with precision. A device could read with repeatable .0005 precision yet have +/-.1 accuracy! It will tell you that something is .6785" all day long, but the manufacturer only guarantees that the object is somewhere between .5785" and .7785".
I really wish rcbs decapping rods didn’t taper to itty bitty small diameter stem and threads to screw on the expander ball, it’s soo fragile and easy to have the ball come either loose or strip the threads
I tried the Lee die and it will not form the 223 brass to pass a cartridge head space gauge. I bought the Hornady Custom Grade Die set. Worked perfect. I was using Federal .223 once fired brass. Cut size 1.360/annealed. Dimension after sizing 1.368-1.369. Trimmed to 1.362. If you use Accurate 1680 you have to watch your case length. No less than 1.358 Super Sonic. Otherwise you may getting into a compressed load that will bulge the case when you seat the bullet. I was loading 125 Gr Hornady SST 19.5 Gr Accurate 1680. Case is pretty full with this load. This was Lyman data.
How about a 357 Mag deer hunting load for my Henry? What if I told you that video is only days away? What if I told you I was gonna kill a deer with it this year!? Big things to come, brother. And very soon. :)
The color scheme i thought would have been rcbs green, lee red, and forester purple. But I am nit picking. Also i need some more comedy your real doll had me almost piss myself laughing.
zero come out when they are fired would be too hot load, come out before they are fired can be fixed by sealing primer after completing making the round (primer pocket too loose). IMO
Using gemtech brass from Everglades also . Have good results using Lee resizing die also with Redding competition resize die . What I believe the real difference maker for me is the Lyman M die due to the way it expands the neck while flaring . I pretty much shoot cast powder coated boolits only though . Noe 311-247rf,311-150 sp, and 311-202 rn . All sized to .310
I am desperately searching load data for subsonic loads in a 16“ barrel. Subsonic factory ammo shoot around 2000fps out of my barrel. Am shooting a single loader, so feeding issues do not occur.
Um...not to be critical. But as far as feeding issues keep to tightly Pointed Hollow point bullets and not hollow points that are very open tipped. M4 ramps are still the common denominator. 👍👍😀
Interesting "quick" video. I am cheap, so I only use Lee. I also remove all the decapping pins on mine because I use a universal decapping die to my expander balls only touch clean brass. I am assuming there are other differences that make RCBS and Forester so much more expensive than Lee dies.
i am also a Lee-fan, but i learned and allready said it on this forum somewhere. You can damage your resizing dies when you resize brass that is not clean on the inside,so i universal decap first (like U),than ultrasonic clean,than i resize and use hornady one-shot with 5 pieces(not more) because it gets harder fast. And i clean my pin and rest and use some 2000grains paper too. nice comment from you,keep faith, i do too and have good results. Oh yes, i bought last week the precision powder dispensor from Lee,nice,nice,nice, is from 0.01 to 0.04 grain consistent.
marc robert I clean my die body and expander ball with ballistol. I let that dry for a while then rub it down with isopropyl alcohol. I am just curious why other brands cost so much. When I sit to prep brass, I do around 150 at a time. I use that lee funky paste. Haven't really hand any issues with it other than the "port hole" in the threads getting plugged up. That's where the ballistol and a toothpick come into play.
Your measurement for LC brass is off. If it is 5.56 it is .012. If you resize 300 BLK (223) brass without the ball the best you can get is .003 neck tension because the brass is thin. Try the same thing with 5.56 brass and you get .005 neck tension because of thicker brass. No point to a sizer ball much less than .306 with 300 BLK (223) brass .305 will just slip out. The same ball will get you the same neck tensions with 5.56. However a .304 will get you more with the thicker 5.56 brass until a max of .005.
I find that a ratchet works best when tightening the Lee die. I was having the same problem as EA with forming 300BLK using the Lee die. The cases don't fit exactly into the Lyman Checker but does after the initial firing. I have to hand feed some of the tricky brass. Apparently, the RCBS die doesn't have this problem. ruclips.net/video/-CNKgcQHv-g/видео.html
My cat is fascinated by these hands moving on the TV screen.
FWIW Lee doesn't recommend forming 300blk with their dies.
"The Lee 300AAC full length sizing die is designed to resize 300AAC cases to pre-fired dimensions. Lee rifle sizing dies do not size the fired case all the way back down to SAAMI minimum. Through experience Lee has found that the chambers of most guns are large enough and sizing the cases to minimum unnecessarily overworks the case and results in shortened case life. The 300AAC full length sizing die is often used to reform 223 or 556 cases to 300AAC cases. Results will vary when this is attempted because the Lee die is a sizing die and not a forming die. Forming dies have smaller dimensions to account for the increased spring back that is encountered when cases are formed. Forming die dimensions are at least at minimum SAAMI if not below. The amount of spring back also varies as a result of case wall thickness or hardness. So you will find that you may be able to reform some cases satisfactorily with a Lee sizing die and others not at all.
Another factor that can come into play is the thickness of the case neck on reformed case. As you leave the neck area of the case and move into the shoulder and body side wall area the brass gradually thickens the closer to the case head you get. When you shorten the 223 or 556 case you begin to get into thicker metal and if it is too thick the loaded diameter of the cartridge neck can become too large and create chambering and live round ejection problems. Not to mention the possibility of dangerously high chamber pressures due to bullet pinch.
Here is the process that seems to work with the greatest degree of success if you wish to attempt to reform cases with your Lee sizing die. Trim the cases and after lubing with Lee Resizing Lube size the cases in the full length die with the decapper/expander rod removed. After this first sizing re-lube the cases and size them one more time with the decapper/expander rod installed. This seems to work for many but not all cases.
Hope this helps.
Thanks,
Peter
Customer Service
Lee Precision, Inc.
4275 Highway U
Hartford, WI 53027
phone: 262-673-3075"
I have had trouble using my friends lee die to form my brass. Not so much the forming process gave me trouble, or the shooting, but trimming with my WFT after the fact would not result in consistent lengths. When my rcbs small base die came in all was great.
Thanks! I will give that a try. When resizing with the expander mandrel, the end of the case mouth looked pretty ugly. It was going better after using a lot more lube. I bet running them through the resizing die, then trimming, then running them through again with the pin will help a lot.
Jon Bidinger bro, thank you so much for this. Newer reloader here and just got some once fired brass from Etsy for a really good deal. I wasn’t expecting perfection, the brass I got was beautiful looking and all LC however they appears to be slightly off when dropping them in the lyman ammo checker. When resizing with my Lee FL it was making the fitment worse! After reading this comment I took the expander out and just sizing without the expander is allowing for perfect fitment and 100% reliability. Thank you SO MUCH
Lee Precision doesn't impress me anymore. I've got a 308 die that will NOT push a shoulder back at all! Replacing my dies slowly with Redding
All I have is a Lee blackout to form my cases without a problem but I run them through there two or three times.. I clean it out quite a bit.
Can this dude please come to RUclips full time with this type of content? This was pure gold buddy. Puuurreee gold!
You tube has been very hard on johnnys reloading bench unfortunately. They dont like his content, It contains facts and knowledge they dont want put out.
I seriously laughed my ass off when the decapping pin came out. Makes feel better knowing dumb stuff happens to you also! 😂😂
OK that's it I'm adding you to my patron list.
Please keep this series going. I have learned more about reloading from this Chanel than anywhere else.
Thanks, dude! I really appreciate all the support. This series is only getting longer and longer. I feel like I'm on the verge of some breakthroughs that will improve my 300 blackout ammo a lot. It's well worth the time to explore this stuff thoroughly!
@@JohnnysReloadingBench I know this is an older video, but in several of them you were flaring the case mouth to prevent bullet shaving. I'm wondering if that might have had some effect on the neck tension, even though you were crimping the cartridge as well. Could annealing make a difference in neck tension? I've watched most of your videos and have wondered several times about the concentricity and diameters of the flash holes. could that make a difference on the accuracy and primer performance if there's some variation from case to case? I've been reloading for nearly 50 years and have never thought to try some of the variables that you have. (way back when. we didn't have as many choices as we have today). GREAT videos.
Your videos are the most beneficial videos for reloading for 300
Very interesting and informative. This is exactly the type of thing that interests me. The nuts and bolts: WHY things happen the way they happen.
I love your channel Johnny... You make great videos. I hate to be critical, but when you were measuring the expander OD, a caliper can't be trusted for such a precision measurement. They are a tool of convenience. You need a micrometer with 1/10s resolution. I use a Starrett No.230 to measure bullet diameters and such. It would be a handy tool for your bench. I would recommend a Starrett or Mitutoyo, stay away from the Chinesium imitations. Keep up the good work!!!
Thank you for finally doing this
Well done video. Lots of great information. I'm looking forward to more. OAL growth is a recurring theme with 300blk.
Having worked for a major bullet manufacturer. The type of measurements are good. However one thing you did not consider by not crimping the bullet in the case. Allows the the bullet to change its alignment while feeding into the chamber. The way the projectile contacts the feed ramp, length of the bullet to contact point to the case is critical. By this a bullet with a longer ogive will cause the bullet to cant upward away from the feed ramp. This in turn causes the bullet to not align properly into the chamber. A taper crimp is critical to help hold the bullet in correct alignment from reloading. Of all the testing we did in reloading, the crimp and COAL were the most common problems for larger deviations in loading. Crimping is the most critical part. Taper crimp for longer ogive bullets, roll crimp for shorter round nose bullets.
If a bullet is not aligned before contacting the lands, essentially it becomes a pinball affect before entering the barrel. I hope this helps clear up some of the mystery about grouping. Just a helpful hint, crimping is probably the most critical part to maintain bullet alignment before detonation.
Thank you, sir. In .300 Blackout, where would you put the dividing line between longer and shorter bullets, with respect to taper v. roll crimp?
Awesome, Awesome video again. Thank you!
Let me try to help you with the wording conundrum you got yourself in towards the end :-)
When most metals deform, this is what happens. Initially, with small deformations, the metal only experiences elastic deformation. That means that if you stop deforming it, it will return to the initial dimensions exactly. In this elastic stage, the more you deform the metal, the more it resists. In the case of expanding the case mouth, that means the smaller the mouth, the more neck tension it provides..... so far so good.
If you continue to deform the metal even more, you reach a point in which the deformation is so large that the metal starts exhibiting plastic deformation. Now the elastic deformation doesn't simply disappear at this point. It's still there, but you're starting to add plastic deformation. In the case of brass, plastic deformation contributes less neck tension per deformation unit so you can really call that "the point of diminishing returns".Once you get to plastic deformation, and then remove the external force, the metal will no longer return to it's original dimensions. It will still contract, just not the original dimension. This is essentially what the forming/resizing dies do.
Bullet seating however should only keep the brass in the elastic region as there is little to nothing to gain from having your bullet behave as a second expander ball.
OMG.....I saw you used a red marker on the RCBS die and green on the Lee..........My OCD is about to short circuit my brain. You did that on purpose didn't you? LOL.
The super long stem on RCBS sizing dies makes for great storage of your shell holders on the turret!
Yes. However, it makes for crappy storage of turrets.
Hornady and RCBS dies always made me think of painful skin injuries with their threaded shafts that stuck out so far. Maybe silly, but in most any other type of machinery those would not be allowed as they are too easy to miss and injuries happen easily. I just looked and I have Lyman, Lee and Redding dies in 300BLK but I have come to admire Hornadys seating die lately.
Good video. Thanks for pointing out the differences with 300blk mags. Also someone did point out the same thing I wanted to, which was to match the die and shell holder brands. Don't mix and match. Causes variance in headspace dimension
Just got into reloading after regretting not doing it before Covid. Started the other day by finally seeing H110 in-stock locally. $40. Bought a pound. Then I bought the RCBS 300blk sb 2-die set and a Hornady 380 3-die set. Gotta start somewhere. I still need a few sets of dies and all of the other stuff but at least I’m somewhat in the game now. Primers have been my unicorn. Funny enough, I seem to find them when I’m out of funds 🤷♂️
Wow all these non stop issues made my head hurt. You would be wise to just quite an buy manufactured ammo as no one should everr have these many issues reloading anything whatsoever. However, you having most likely saved many others the huge headaches that they otherwise might have had. So well done
Lee die set has a factory Crimp die. The Lee dies were made to use it.
I have never considered the relative position of the decapping pin extension and its location to keep the expander ball below the case neck. I really enjoy your videos. Thanks
One hack that I did for my p mags in 5.56 for use with 300 BLK was to take a file to the top two or three inches of those ribs that run up the inside of the magazine and forming them to look like those 300 BLK specific mags. You don't need to do the entire magazine from bottom to top, the top two or three inches will be fine since all you really want it to do is not cant the top bullet towards the center. After I knocked that easy 5 minutes job out I no longer had failure to feeds since the rounds were oriented towards the chamber better. In fact now that I come to think of it around the time that I modified my p mags in August was about the time that I noticed a huge improvement in accuracy out of my 10.5 inch KAK value line barreled AR pistol. Probably just like you I was having an issue with the tip of some of my rounds slamming into the chamber face off center and pushing the bullet some random amount further into the case.....thus causing differences in pressure between rounds. No es bueno. Since then I went from 3 inch groups at 100 yards to just over 1 inch and my best group at 200 yards was 2.86" with very little vertical stringing...just left to right spread. It was a little windy that day too so in perfect condition that could possibly improve some more; as long as I do my part. All with fiocchi 125 gr sst rounds. So not even all that expensive of a round, but one hell of a shooter though. I really do wonder if a lot of the inaccuracies of a lot of people's equipment is just this problem randomly popping up? Great video sir and honestly discovering your channel got me into reloading. I just loaded my first set of 308's and 300 BLK for testing. Cheers!
PS 8 discovered your channel through your TC Compass videos while I was researching whether to buy one or not. That's another great video series. Kudos mate.
Do you have access to a bigger range to shoot? I think it would be cool to test the 6.5 Grendel and the recent MK 262 loads at varying distances. Just curious. Thanks for all the time you put into these videos
The Lee one is the easiest. You made it hard. install the die with the pin low and only snug. Run it down on a decapped piece of brass. The pin is now sitting on the base of the brass. loosen the collet, and nudge the pin up a sixteenth, and reef that collet down hard. It now is trouble free. I would say that the 3 300BO decappers I have handled from lee had a lot of lathe marks and put a lot of drag on the brass. Chucking them up in a hand drill and polishing with 1000 grit oiled sand paper makes for a much smoother experience.
Good to see you using that nice RCBS universal primer. Those Lee hand primers are so hinky.
The lee die also comes with a crimp die in the set for the purpose of consistent neck tension and reliability in auto loaders. Have you given it a try?
It's great to be able to see problems you come across in your process that are extremely helpful in trying to get things right without going through all the pain and suffering you did haha. I'm curious. Do you uniform the primer pockets after swaging or reaming the crimp? I notice you use the #41 primer which a lot of people have had trouble seating properly.
Are you switching shell holders when you switch to a different die? Unmatched shell holders may make all the difference in headspace measurements.
BTW! this is the best reloading channel by far.
thankyou
If you did not anneal those chopped off cases, they are not ready to form to 300 blk. Way too much spring in the body section of the brass which becomes the 300's neck.
Been converting 556 to 300blk for 7 years and never annealed a single case, 0 problems. Thousands of rounds, usually 7-10 firings per case
Great Video. Keep up the good work.
By the way on your Lee die to get it tighter try this undersize mandrel. Lee # 90480. It costs 4 bucks ...plus if you can't get your Brass to shoulder up you might check out the competition shell holders from Redding. I think there the # 10's. Great videos keep them coming.
The Redding Competition Shell Holder Set is 5 Shell holders they are stepped down -2,-4,-6,-8 .... It would be interesting to see how they perform. Part #359546.
Why did you not use the lee factory crimp die?
This is a great video I might have to test my dies now to see what is going on with my 308 kind of got me wondering now
Thanks for the video and information grate job
Place your collet bullet puller in your press and use a fishing scale to see how many pounds it takes to remove each bullet. You could use it to see which brass holds better and which die causes more neck tension. Any spring-type scale with a stopper will work. Or maybe even a digital scale. You would just place the scale on the Press handle when you pull up to remove the bullet
was the bullet centered in the case?? the lake city grew in the mag when it was chambered multiple times. Would neck tension hold the round constantly in the same location to help grouping??. good video, Quality Control begins with getting repeatable results time after time.
Is there a measurable difference in bullet concentricity depending on the sizing dies?
When you cut down lake city brass you should try annealing the brass. Lake City brass is annealed but you cut that part off. The brass sizes easier and has better spring to retain the seated bullet. I like to anneal, lube, size without a decap/inside mouth mandrel. I will run the brass a second time to size with the mandrel in place. Case forming like this gives the neck and shoulder less stress. Then all you worry about is sizing the neck the 2nd time through. It works good for me. Oddly, I trim to length, end up short after forming, and get back to the trim length after the 2nd sizing.
Why didn't you use a micrometer when measuring the expander balls? They are more accurate.
Black box RCBS 300 blk dies work ok except the de cap stem stripped the threads out of the neck ball after I had done only about 500 cases. Apparently this is a common occurance because they offer a free replacement stem assy on their web site. My problem with that is why should I get a free replacement of something that will fail the same way again? I got the Lee dies and have had no further problems in this area. As for trimming, Forster has a drill press trimmer that works well, if you have a drill press. I load commercially, so any wasted time is to be avoided. I like the drill press trimmer because it,s easy to set up and quick to do large quantities of trimming, if needed.
Thank you for the informative video. I have had good luck with a Hornady sizing die in 300 BLK. The neck expander ball seems to work well and not stretch the case much.
Also do you anneal your lake city before forming? And have you tried neck turning?
I’m way behind on this blk out stuff. I just finished a pistol build, went with a 9” ballistic advantage barrel and also just got into reloading as well, forming brass etc... I’ve learned a lot from these videos and other research. So far I think I’m on the right track, however I haven’t even shot the gun yet. Reading all the comments are helpful too. Thx
Just curious, have you ever taken the seating stem out of a RCBS taper crimp seating die, and used it as a crimp die? I'm using a micrometer seating die, and taper crimping with the RCBS seater, it's been working much better than the Lee factory crimp die for me in 300 Blackout. I do use a Lee crimp die in several other calibers, just got inconsistent results in 300 Blackout.
Great video and research. Here's another question to throw in the mix. I saw the cases were fairly suited up, meaning they are not expanding enough to seal the chamber. A little around the neck should be ok, but I saw it all the way back to the rim of some of your brass. Just a thought.
BTW, the way i usually measure neck tension is to measure the neck of a sized case and then of a loaded case and subtract the difference. I wish you had measured the OD of the sized cases and then again after loading. .002" seems to be the magic number IMO.
why not use green for RCBS and red for Lee? So confusing. Great video
Good stuff. Great info
How do you feel about Dillion Precision dies?
Did you ever do a video on the cheap Rainer wedge subsonic projectiles?
Could you please tell me what the meaning of the 'C' on the end of a
measure in grains in a reloading chart? For example, 19.0C gr of IMR
4227. Thanks!
Alex Wiggs The C stands for “Compressed” as in a compressed load.
Get the Hornady anvil, helps case measuring.
I would try all 3 crimp types. Lee collet factory crimp, roll crimp, and taper crimp. At different levels. I know you already tried something similar earlier. Just my 2 thoughts.
great video - love the chatter ... killed me with the 'Lubritiousness'....is that spelled right...I have to look it up!
Would be interesting to know if your Lee die has out of spec neck mandrel. He always preaches .002" in his book for neck tension. Also he specifies .002" is max neck tension.
Also would interesting to see Lee Neck Sizing die also run.
Could be Gemtech brass is harder and thus resizes more on bullet seating versus LC.
Also could try the new Starline brass too.
So far my inclination is that Gemtech brass is harder and work-hardening further leading to your accuracy issues.
I modified my Lee cap with a 7/32 drill followed by a 1/4-28 NF tap to allow me to run an RCBS expander in my Lee sizing die. This was partly because I wanted to be able to remove the decapping pin for some already primed cases. I can always swap another cap from another die set, if I need to. Thanks.
Maybe I missed it, but did you trim all cases to the exact same length before testing? If your testing for neck tension wouldn't you want all cases to have the same amount of brass contacting the bullet?
Lake City annealed slightly?
40’ long!!! Come on Jonny, I told you thousand times don’t exaggerate. Hehe, keep up the good work.
JRB. Have you seen the prices at Acme Machining. Pretty damn good.
Johnny, I ran into the same issues. I started with a Lee Dies, and wasn't happy with the tiny shoulder it produced and had accuracyissues with it.. I got the RCBS, and it was better, and finally I got the Forster and it is the one that I use now for all my brass. It produces as nice shoulder and is very consistant.
I've become a bigger fan of Forster with every die I buy. Their full length sizing die, a micrometer seater die, and a Lee factory crimp die make a pretty good combo!
Reloaders, what’s your take on bullet to rifling freebore jump with all of these different .308 bullet shapes and lengths? I’ve loaded 150’s to kiss the lands, and loaded short 110’s to make a sizeable jump. What have y’all experienced with accuracy by seating at different depths? I’m curious to hear if you have similar results to my test loads.
300BLK experience only please.
Doesn't strapping the barrel/can down mess with accuracy?
Off topic, but have you ever looked into Ground Zero Precision parts? Or anyone in the comment.
Why do you set the Lee die like qthat? The decap should be flush and tight, no reason to move or remove it unless you stick a case. Insert the die with the press extended,run the die to contact shell holder, give extra 1/4 turn, adj the lock ring. I've had no issues.
I think the Forster die was just slightly slower in velocity than the other two due to its' extra case length when sizing. When sized to the same COAL its' projectile sits further out from the main case body compared to the other two resulting in slightly lower pressure and as a result velocity. Makes sense then that the Lee die would produce a slightly faster velocity than the RCBS as well. This is assuming that u were able to set COAL EXACTLY the same for all three dies. The way to validate this is using Quickload software and compare what the result is for adding a little to case length to a load while keeping case capacity the same.
What powder have you found to give best velocity with 110gr vmax out of your 16" 300blk upper?
H110 and Winchester 296 (they are the same powder) are going to be your best velocities.
I would like to see Hornady in this comparison.
So which 300 blackout die should I use? I thinking Forster is the winner.
Hey can you test 5.56 LC brass with Vitavouri N540 with 69-77 gr sierra HPBT Matching kings
My buddy's forster fl die for his 6.5 grendel sets the shoulder back .010" when compared to fired brass. That's setting up the die per instruction manual. I looked into it because after five or six firings using hornady brass, he experienced case head separation.
My Forster Grendel die is the same. I only need to screw it down until it very lightly touches the shell holder to get the right amount of bump.
Johnny's Reloading Bench it's the same for my forster 308 die. Maybe they did that on purpose.
Nice video series! I'm experiencing similar inconsistencies between 300 blackout Dillon, Lee, and the RCBS full length sizing diea
Very cool test
I did not see you anneal the Lake City brass after you trimmed it, you may have but if you didnt, i think it may have been more flexible therefore grabbed onto the bullet better I believe. I totally got what you where saying about the neck ball sizeing reaching a plateau or only so much tension. This video helped me a Lot, I was just about to buy 300 blackout dies today. I will wait till I see a little not of your series but I do like that foster die
I am using a Forster die to form my converted 300 BLK brass. I have had excellent results with Lake City brass. You are exactly on point with annealing. If you are converting .223/5.56 brass to 300 BLK, it is absolutely essential to anneal if you want to have any consistency not only in forming but proper neck tension. Neck tension is not simply a matter of proper dimension but also dependent on proper hardness.
I’m using the RCBS die in a Lyman Brass Smith, and my once fired cases are getting stuck. Anyone have the same problem? Cases have been cleaned decapped and lubed but about 3 out of 4 cases are getting stuck. I ordered a Lee Pacesetter die in hopes of that bing the better die. Any thoughts?
A sample size of one for the bullet stretch test... Plus you said you lubed the inside of the mouth on a couple so that the expander ball would be lubed. So some got more or less lubrication. I've never heard of anyone lubing the expander ball. Personally I would throw those test results out completely.
so do you get the dent in the mouth of your fired cases?
Why the change in brass? Just a supply issue, or sponsorship thingie, or Bad brass?
Only time I got a stuck case with the RCBS is when the expander ball was too high.
Working in aerospace dial cals are just a bit better for accuracy fosters not cheap but the reading you know is good
Stompin Mcallister for sure
Rewatching your series. Crescent wrench will ruin your Lee locking nut pretty quickly, learned this from experience, best to use real 3/4" wrench on the die body and 1/2" wrench on top. The whole idea about hitting berdan primers and having the rod slide up doesn't work if you got crimped primers, you learn to tighten that sucker very tight.
Are you going to test this with a crimp also?
Cartridge brass alloy definitely varies. Different cases are going to have different neck "spring-back" based on the alloy, neck thickness, and number of firings. If Lee even sells it(?), a neat test would be to pick up a collet neck die for 300 BLK, and several different mandrel sizes. You might be able to determine that exact point of completely diminished returns for all the different cases you're using. As you state, at a certain point increased sizing won't offer more grip, and will just degrade ammo concentricity.
Dustysa4 Lee does sell a collet neck sizing die but have only seen it in a 2 die set about $29. But would be interesting because the collet helps to work out uneven neck thickness too. Use his forester to bump shoulder back and size case and collet die to size the neck.
Since you are able to measure wall thickness, you can measure the OD of the case neck, subtract the wall thickness, and get a decent ID measurement.
Also, investing in some high quality 1 inch micrometers from ebay, as well as better digital calipers such as Mitutoyo would pay dividends. By nature, calipers are only accurate +/- .001", so it cracks me up when reloaders on you tube acknowledge the .0005" from the lower quality digital calipers (it only cracks me up cause I fell for it too back in the day, I know these guys are all intelligent and I respect and learn from them). FWIW, I'm a 20 year xperienced machinist/toolmaker who is becoming an engineer, so I've made my living using precision measuring tools.
Be sure you don't confuse accuracy with precision. A device could read with repeatable .0005 precision yet have +/-.1 accuracy! It will tell you that something is .6785" all day long, but the manufacturer only guarantees that the object is somewhere between .5785" and .7785".
I really wish rcbs decapping rods didn’t taper to itty bitty small diameter stem and threads to screw on the expander ball, it’s soo fragile and easy to have the ball come either loose or strip the threads
I just got a ballistic advantage 8" 300 blk 1-7 5R barrel for $116 I hope it shoots 🤗
Well...how’d it shoot?
I tried the Lee die and it will not form the 223 brass to pass a cartridge head space gauge. I bought the Hornady Custom Grade Die set. Worked perfect. I was using Federal .223 once fired brass. Cut size 1.360/annealed. Dimension after sizing 1.368-1.369.
Trimmed to 1.362. If you use Accurate 1680 you have to watch your case length. No less than 1.358 Super Sonic. Otherwise you may getting into a compressed load that will bulge the case when you seat the bullet. I was loading 125 Gr Hornady SST 19.5 Gr Accurate 1680. Case is pretty full with this load. This was Lyman data.
Had the same problem in 308
Henery 357 mag latter test? or accuracy test?
How about a 357 Mag deer hunting load for my Henry? What if I told you that video is only days away? What if I told you I was gonna kill a deer with it this year!? Big things to come, brother. And very soon. :)
The color scheme i thought would have been rcbs green, lee red, and forester purple. But I am nit picking. Also i need some more comedy your real doll had me almost piss myself laughing.
I crushed a few shoulders by not having the RCBS ball expander down fall enough.
Do u ever have problems with the primers coming out when they are fired
zero come out when they are fired would be too hot load, come out before they are fired can be fixed by sealing primer after completing making the round (primer pocket too loose). IMO
Amature hour, you got that right
You should put the link in for lubricious...
Ozark Spirit I paused the video and googled it.
Lee has a collet neck sizing die, 26 bucks
Using gemtech brass from Everglades also . Have good results using Lee resizing die also with Redding competition resize die . What I believe the real difference maker for me is the Lyman M die due to the way it expands the neck while flaring . I pretty much shoot cast powder coated boolits only though . Noe 311-247rf,311-150 sp, and 311-202 rn . All sized to .310
I don't form my brass but have read and people swear by using a short base resizing die for forming their LC brass.
I am desperately searching load data for subsonic loads in a 16“ barrel. Subsonic factory ammo shoot around 2000fps out of my barrel. Am shooting a single loader, so feeding issues do not occur.
who makes a single loader
@@le3045acp bergara
@@tobiastorsi bergara what what use is there in a single loader in this caliber
What is the parent case you are forming?
Thompson Jerry .223
Um...not to be critical. But as far as feeding issues keep to tightly Pointed Hollow point bullets and not hollow points that are very open tipped. M4 ramps are still the common denominator. 👍👍😀
Interesting "quick" video. I am cheap, so I only use Lee. I also remove all the decapping pins on mine because I use a universal decapping die to my expander balls only touch clean brass. I am assuming there are other differences that make RCBS and Forester so much more expensive than Lee dies.
i am also a Lee-fan, but i learned and allready said it on this forum somewhere. You can damage your resizing dies when you resize brass that is not clean on the inside,so i universal decap first (like U),than ultrasonic clean,than i resize and use hornady one-shot with 5 pieces(not more) because it gets harder fast. And i clean my pin and rest and use some 2000grains paper too. nice comment from you,keep faith, i do too and have good results. Oh yes, i bought last week the precision powder dispensor from Lee,nice,nice,nice, is from 0.01 to 0.04 grain consistent.
i spray also the inside with one-shot and ultrasoon after
sites.google.com/view/reload-cheap-subsonic/homepage
marc robert I clean my die body and expander ball with ballistol. I let that dry for a while then rub it down with isopropyl alcohol. I am just curious why other brands cost so much. When I sit to prep brass, I do around 150 at a time. I use that lee funky paste. Haven't really hand any issues with it other than the "port hole" in the threads getting plugged up. That's where the ballistol and a toothpick come into play.
o yes, i forgot, i bought last week my tirth 200ml ballistol spraycan,i use it for almost for everything.
Do you like Hornady Dies?
That is way I use a Hornady die, which give me a reading of .304
Your measurement for LC brass is off. If it is 5.56 it is .012. If you resize 300 BLK (223) brass without the ball the best you can get is .003 neck tension because the brass is thin. Try the same thing with 5.56 brass and you get .005 neck tension because of thicker brass. No point to a sizer ball much less than .306 with 300 BLK (223) brass .305 will just slip out. The same ball will get you the same neck tensions with 5.56. However a .304 will get you more with the thicker 5.56 brass until a max of .005.
I find that a ratchet works best when tightening the Lee die.
I was having the same problem as EA with forming 300BLK using the Lee die. The cases don't fit exactly into the Lyman Checker but does after the initial firing. I have to hand feed some of the tricky brass. Apparently, the RCBS die doesn't have this problem.
ruclips.net/video/-CNKgcQHv-g/видео.html