I don’t think there is two, actually; I would guess the algorithm just changes the cost function to be the negative of what it actually is, as if the winner is whoever gets checkmate. That said, it plays in an optimal way to get checkmated, regardless of whether you trying to win or lose too. It is like saying there is two engines to play chess: ones for when the enemy wants to win and another for when it wants to lose (there is no point in making an engine for the second way, as the first way suffices both cases)
@@fbrunodr the nature of minimax (the basic algorithm used for most chess engines, including stockfish) involves searching for every move that can be made up to a certain amount of moves into the future and then evaluates the board at each endstate. to determine how good earlier positions up the possibility tree are we assume that the active player will make the move that is most advantageous for them. there are qays to make this algorithm more efficient which stockfish definitely uses but that's the basic gist. minimax for worstfish modifies this algorithm by making evaluating earlier positions based on the worst possible move for stockfish instead of the best one. but that doesn't take into account how the opponent plays. that is where the two versions of worstfish comes from: one assumes that the opponent wants to make good moves and the other assumes that the opponent wants to make bad moves. normal worstfish is going to play to optimally give their opponent an opportunity to checkmate, but will assume that the enemy will take checkmate when they can. the other worstfish would do what iwantcheckmate does and actively try to force their opponent to checkmate them, since it assumes the opponent is trying to avoid checkmate. these are different things.
@@fbrunodr I believe the way worstfish works is it takes the stockfish evaluation of every legal move and chooses the worst one. This could be stated as "play the move that lowers the stockfish evaluation the most this turn". The insane spikes of the evaluation support the claim that this is how the worstfish in the video works. There is another even worse version that I have not seen implemented anywhere though, which is what @mathgeniuszach called the one that assumes you are trying to lose. Instead of just picking the worst move this turn, it picks the move that gives it a min-max path to the worst possible evaluation. Essentially, it plays inverse chess optimally. This version is harder to implement because rather than changing only the piece of stockfish that picks the move to play, you have to change the way it considers future moves and opponent moves as well, which is why it is so rarely done that I have never seen it. TLDR: the worstfish seen here plays the move that ruins your position the most this turn, true worstfish plays inverse chess.
One of my favorite chess bots is what I call the "Egocentrist". The Egocentrist acts like a regular chess bot, except it pretends the opponent never moves. So basically how a beginner plays.
I wish worstfish actually acted in the worst possible way assuming its opponent is trying to lose. It can't actually read more than one move into the future because it's not pruning correctly. It plays the move which gives away the most traditional advantage, which is unrelated to the move which makes it hardest for the opponent to intentionally lose. Actually I'd assume that often the *best* traditional move is also the best move when both players are trying to lose.
This isn't to say it would be trivial to reverse the algorithm stockfish uses to look into the future; multiplying things by -1 can't instantly turn stockfish into an unstoppable losing machine, you'd have to write a mostly or entirely new engine to do that (and almost certainly find in the process that forced draws are a guaranteed outcome with perfect play).
It could be a really interesting variant if a draw results in a loss for the player making the final move. Gameplay would probably be mostly like regular chess with endgames revolving around restricting your opponent, forcing them to make a capture and winning by the 50 move rule.
@@alexhowe8333 First of all, that's not how the knight moves. Do you mean Nf3 and Ng1? Secondly, the goal of the game is to have your opponent checkmate your king. Doing literally nothing is not the optimal way to do this. If you just mess around, your opponent will overwhelm you, and they will put you into zugzwang such that your only option is to checkmate their king. That's how people have lost (won?) against Worstfish before.
@@alexhowe8333 Actually, to clarify, the specific scenario in this video was not zugzwang. Zugzwang is when you'd rather pass your turn than make a move, but White's king is in check, so they wouldn't even be able to do that.
I love how involved you are with your audience and also thank you so much for showing me some love in the beginning for the "worst fish" idea. I wasn't the first to request it btw lol. Merry Christmas!
Well, that refers to when someone would rather pass than move. It is one way to do it, but it doesn't apply to this specific video. Of course, White passing their turn at the end would be leaving their king in check, and they can't do that.
Hi mate, love the videos! I'm sure people have mentioned this but as a viewer i find the suspense in not knowing the conclusion of a run or a challenge beforehand really adds to the experience. For example: in call of duty zombies challenge runs when the creator at the start of the video say "this was my one successful attempt" or "i have had so many failed attempts, lets hope this one is successful" it ruins the ending by telling the audience the outcome of the run. Even if you don't succeed its nice to see the fails and it builds more suspense in future vids as we never know the outcome. Another analogy would be in Game Of Thrones you never knew if a character was going to die so would always be in more suspense whereas mid-series of dexter or any other show with one main character you know they are never going to die so you're not in as much suspense. :)
Very important video. If Stockfish ever become sentient, maybe they'll forgive you for Martinfish since you gave their little sibling Worstfish few wins?
I played as Black both times. First, I tried a 10+3 and failed. Then, I tried a 7+3 and I ran out of time on move 37, so I picked up from position with 15+14 and got it to checkmate me within 10 more moves, 47. exf3#. The problem solving you have to do is so weird. Stuff like you encountered at 2:22 and it just gets crazier. Thanks for highlighting this bot, it's a fun challenge and really forces you to view the game in new ways.
It was really bizarre because instinct goes out the window and the calculation and reasoning is very laborious 😅 I may revisit this bot in the future with some twist!
Worstfish = wants to lose to stockfish as fast as possible Worst worst fish = wants to lose to worstfish you can repeat this forever and end up with negamin stockfish Or you can take the Leela Chess Zero approach and create a new rating system to measure each players ability to lose and use that to find the move that minimizes your winning chances against that opponent.
Merry Christmas and good video. I wanted to mention though for challenges like these, especially if the final product is only gonna be four minutes long, seeing the failed attempts as you adapt your strategy would be really really nice. It's not about the destination, it's about the journey :)
Pro tip: First block the b/g pawn, then go to a corner so that the b/g pawn can check you, then capture all his pieces except that b/g pawn, then force him to push his pawn with his king next to it
First time viewer, new sub. Really enjoy your style, your narration and way if presenting things seems very natural and plays very well with the 'stream of conciousness' analysis Audio seems great too btw.
i have a strategy i use against worstfish, you take all his pieces except for one pawn then stalemate his king then box your king in so he is forced to push the pawn & mate you
Why is the bot that is programmed to " commit suicide as soon as possible " and be " the worst one at the thing he do " have a trans flag, i find that really out of touch to put that flag there from the person that made the bot
That was my thought too. Like there's no doubt in my mind that wasn't the intention, but I would expect the kind of people who feel the need to insert these symbols everywhere would be sensitive to the very obvious implications here.
@@thecringequeen31 I don't know. Maybe to show that trans people suck and don't have a biological advantage just because they are trans lol Jokes aside, I really have no idea. Maybe it's just well meant representation? Anyway hope it's not meant badly... If it is, Trans Rights Are Human Rights 🩵🩷🤍🩷🩵 still counts and I'll still love all of my trans bros, sisters and enbys.
Here is an idea! Play a chess game against a bot, but you must make one of every type of move during the game, via intuition! It would include some like Brilliant Great Best Excellent Good Missed Win Inaccuracy Mistake Blunder Forced
If I'm not wrong, the problem is that the computer still assumes that their opponent will make the best move possible. I imagine this challenge would be extremely difficult, if that was fixed.
Interesting, the way I lost to Worstfish is that I made a position where the only possible (he could only move his pawn) move for him was checkmate, and I also gotten a worse accuracy than Worstfish in that game. That way is better probably because I only needed one try for it.
Great vid! Just some friendly feedback, I’d personally like it if you included some games in your vids where you don’t win? Hearing you mention that you had already played previous games and that the recording starts with *this* one immediately gives away the conclusion. Playing whacky bots or changing the rules doesn’t really do much if every vid begins and ends with a single game? Just a thought, your channel is great and good luck with it!
Worstfish isn't trying to lose. It's trying to play the worst move against someone trying to win. I would have to assume that if someone actually created a stockfish that tried to lose no human could lose to it.
I heard it is easy (still pretty dang hard) to beat worst fish. You just have to limit its options. In a way that the only one is checkmate. I’ve seen it done before
1:35 Completely just a guess but I think it's not the worst stockfish move since that would be the worst move assuming you're trying to win. Instead it probably works by inverting the evaluation of the board and then picking the "best" move like usual. This way, it assumes you are also trying to make the worst move.
@@onecommunistboi I'm just a gal on the Internet and definitely not an expert. I am very likely wrong on some details. My guess is that the *only* thing worst fish does is swap the evaluation. It doesn't change how the evaluation works, so things like positional tactics are still taken into account. If you actually want to make a bot for this "losing" variant of chess, you'd want an entirely new evaluation. Human players have an advantage here in the same way we did against early chess bots. Also, I feel like the worst move in most positions (with normal stockfish) is just intentionally blundering as many pieces as possible which this doesn't seem to be doing.
Worstfish doesn't really "try to lose", it "tries to make a move so bad that even if someone else took over and played perfectly afterwards they would still be losing". If worstfish were really trying to lose then it wouldn't try to blunder its pieces in most instances, and it would also be taking the opponent's pieces too in some contexts (if they can see a "forced checkmate".. where you're forcing the opponent to checkmate you) - blundering pieces only makes your position worse if you're assuming that both players are trying to win, but if both players are trying to lose then capturing your opponents pieces is actually advantageous (if you can remove your opponent's pieces then you can control the game and force them to checkmate you).
I was curious and actually looked it up, and I am just entirely wrong. Worstfish checks all legal moves uses a normal stockfish evaluation (with a time limit of 0.1 seconds or shorter) and basically picks the move that is the best for the opponent, preferring non check/captures then checks, then captures if the evaluations are equal. I want checkmate's understanding and the comment above are basically correct. I think it would be interesting to see my idea. Source: VisibleReality/lichess-worstfish/blob/master/strategies.py
There was a little bit of buzz but I think that was just your natural voice. The audio sounded good overall. So, then, the question is, what is the fewest amount of moves one can manage to lose to worst fish in? What you did there seemed close.
A proper worstfish would probably be basically impossible to lose to... if not actually impossible to lose to. It'd probably just be a draw, even only at the engine level rather than at perfect play like normal chess might be.
Merry Christmas everyone :)
merry christmas!
Merry Christmas!
Merry rizzmas
Merry Christmas :D
Merry Christmas
There's actually two types of worstfish. One assumes you are trying to win, and the other assumes you are trying to lose.
I don’t think there is two, actually; I would guess the algorithm just changes the cost function to be the negative of what it actually is, as if the winner is whoever gets checkmate. That said, it plays in an optimal way to get checkmated, regardless of whether you trying to win or lose too. It is like saying there is two engines to play chess: ones for when the enemy wants to win and another for when it wants to lose (there is no point in making an engine for the second way, as the first way suffices both cases)
I just watched the video and I think it is the second case actually, ain’t no way stockfish would have lost at “inverse chess”
@@fbrunodr the nature of minimax (the basic algorithm used for most chess engines, including stockfish) involves searching for every move that can be made up to a certain amount of moves into the future and then evaluates the board at each endstate. to determine how good earlier positions up the possibility tree are we assume that the active player will make the move that is most advantageous for them. there are qays to make this algorithm more efficient which stockfish definitely uses but that's the basic gist.
minimax for worstfish modifies this algorithm by making evaluating earlier positions based on the worst possible move for stockfish instead of the best one.
but that doesn't take into account how the opponent plays. that is where the two versions of worstfish comes from: one assumes that the opponent wants to make good moves and the other assumes that the opponent wants to make bad moves.
normal worstfish is going to play to optimally give their opponent an opportunity to checkmate, but will assume that the enemy will take checkmate when they can.
the other worstfish would do what iwantcheckmate does and actively try to force their opponent to checkmate them, since it assumes the opponent is trying to avoid checkmate.
these are different things.
@@fbrunodr I believe the way worstfish works is it takes the stockfish evaluation of every legal move and chooses the worst one. This could be stated as "play the move that lowers the stockfish evaluation the most this turn". The insane spikes of the evaluation support the claim that this is how the worstfish in the video works. There is another even worse version that I have not seen implemented anywhere though, which is what @mathgeniuszach called the one that assumes you are trying to lose. Instead of just picking the worst move this turn, it picks the move that gives it a min-max path to the worst possible evaluation. Essentially, it plays inverse chess optimally. This version is harder to implement because rather than changing only the piece of stockfish that picks the move to play, you have to change the way it considers future moves and opponent moves as well, which is why it is so rarely done that I have never seen it.
TLDR: the worstfish seen here plays the move that ruins your position the most this turn, true worstfish plays inverse chess.
Wait isnt that just normal stockfish??
2:09 "force him to mate me" 😳
🤨📸
Jail!
"I am going to first trap my own king. Make sure I don't have any moves that I can play" Sounds close to my level of chess
Laughed out loud that’s hilarious
Who tf says that 😭@@iwantcheckmate
One of my favorite chess bots is what I call the "Egocentrist". The Egocentrist acts like a regular chess bot, except it pretends the opponent never moves. So basically how a beginner plays.
Hahaha that’s a funny idea
london player :
I wish worstfish actually acted in the worst possible way assuming its opponent is trying to lose. It can't actually read more than one move into the future because it's not pruning correctly. It plays the move which gives away the most traditional advantage, which is unrelated to the move which makes it hardest for the opponent to intentionally lose. Actually I'd assume that often the *best* traditional move is also the best move when both players are trying to lose.
This isn't to say it would be trivial to reverse the algorithm stockfish uses to look into the future; multiplying things by -1 can't instantly turn stockfish into an unstoppable losing machine, you'd have to write a mostly or entirely new engine to do that (and almost certainly find in the process that forced draws are a guaranteed outcome with perfect play).
It could be a really interesting variant if a draw results in a loss for the player making the final move. Gameplay would probably be mostly like regular chess with endgames revolving around restricting your opponent, forcing them to make a capture and winning by the 50 move rule.
Wouldn't just repeating Nf3 and Ng2 be an optimal strategy for worstfish? It can't beat you if it's pieces don't do anything
@@alexhowe8333 First of all, that's not how the knight moves. Do you mean Nf3 and Ng1?
Secondly, the goal of the game is to have your opponent checkmate your king. Doing literally nothing is not the optimal way to do this. If you just mess around, your opponent will overwhelm you, and they will put you into zugzwang such that your only option is to checkmate their king. That's how people have lost (won?) against Worstfish before.
@@alexhowe8333 Actually, to clarify, the specific scenario in this video was not zugzwang. Zugzwang is when you'd rather pass your turn than make a move, but White's king is in check, so they wouldn't even be able to do that.
When I lose to an opponent, I will imagine that I am the worst fish and lose the game perfectly.
Excellent idea
He doesn't want checkmate? Blasphemy!
How the mighty fall smh
He does want checkmate!
For white like usual bot games, what's wrong :3
of course he wants the checkmate, to him
iwantcheckmate going against his core principles
It hurt my very soul
He still got a checkmate, just wrong side
he still wants checkmate, but today he wants checkmate for others
I love how the elo rating looks kinda confused too like "1500?" "1861??"
Hahaha
that’s what happens when you’re unrated on lichess
That’s Lichess for you!💀
@@ILuvFrogs-y1hye when ur unrated or only played a few games, it’ll have a question mark
@@BoltCreations yep 1500? is unranked
Let’s go I love you content here is some money to support you
I really appreciate that! Happy holidays my friend :)
congrats worstfish for coming out🏳️⚧️🎉🎉
Show us the 7 failed games too they must be hilarious
fr
The audio sounds like its coming from a phone speaker, which is great considering that I am playing it through my phone speaker
LOL
my man literally checkmated the computer into checkmating him. Truest puppetmaster.
I love how involved you are with your audience and also thank you so much for showing me some love in the beginning for the "worst fish" idea. I wasn't the first to request it btw lol. Merry Christmas!
Of course! I know everyone can’t read everyone else’s comments so I like to shoutout everyone who gave similar ideas. Very merry Christmas!!
iwant(tobe)checkmate(d)
“Checkmate is forced”. Beautiful.
how to win against worstfish: reverse zugswang they have no bad moves
Well, that refers to when someone would rather pass than move. It is one way to do it, but it doesn't apply to this specific video. Of course, White passing their turn at the end would be leaving their king in check, and they can't do that.
If worst fish and stock fish are what they are, I’m terrified of best fish and brilliant fish
Merry christmas to all! and to all a good night :)
Haha Merry Christmas to you as well 🎄
Imagine losing to Worstfish and then having your rating dropped to 1.
We need a new engine: WorsestFish, that will anticipate our attempts to lose and will try to prevent them, while forcing us into mating it 😀
That would probably make it very difficult to lose haha (what a strange sentence)
Love the dedication to daily videos! Merry Christmas
Thank you! Merry Christmas to you as well!
Hi mate, love the videos! I'm sure people have mentioned this but as a viewer i find the suspense in not knowing the conclusion of a run or a challenge beforehand really adds to the experience. For example: in call of duty zombies challenge runs when the creator at the start of the video say "this was my one successful attempt" or "i have had so many failed attempts, lets hope this one is successful" it ruins the ending by telling the audience the outcome of the run. Even if you don't succeed its nice to see the fails and it builds more suspense in future vids as we never know the outcome.
Another analogy would be in Game Of Thrones you never knew if a character was going to die so would always be in more suspense whereas mid-series of dexter or any other show with one main character you know they are never going to die so you're not in as much suspense. :)
That’s an excellent point and I agree that RUclips is a lot like telling a story. Thank you for the feedback! I’ll start adding more complete runs :)
Let's gooo, have been waiting for thiss 😅
Hahaha it’s finally here! 😅
"if i can't beat them, then they can't not beat me" -worstfish
Very important video. If Stockfish ever become sentient, maybe they'll forgive you for Martinfish since you gave their little sibling Worstfish few wins?
With any luck this will be my saving grace
*when
Only 1 out of 7 though
obsessed with this channel!!
Thank you! :)
I played as Black both times. First, I tried a 10+3 and failed. Then, I tried a 7+3 and I ran out of time on move 37, so I picked up from position with 15+14 and got it to checkmate me within 10 more moves, 47. exf3#.
The problem solving you have to do is so weird. Stuff like you encountered at 2:22 and it just gets crazier. Thanks for highlighting this bot, it's a fun challenge and really forces you to view the game in new ways.
It was really bizarre because instinct goes out the window and the calculation and reasoning is very laborious 😅 I may revisit this bot in the future with some twist!
iwantcheckmate ❌
iwannnagetmated ✅
If you want to get mated so bad, just go visit a brothel or just a regular lady of the night!
🤨
There some chess engines that only masters can beat, here is one that only Masters can loose to
Worstfish = wants to lose to stockfish as fast as possible
Worst worst fish = wants to lose to worstfish
you can repeat this forever and end up with negamin stockfish
Or you can take the Leela Chess Zero approach and create a new rating system to measure each players ability to lose and use that to find the move that minimizes your winning chances against that opponent.
awesome video! the audio was just right for my headphones so no complaints here
Thank you for the feedback! That’s a relief 😅
Merry Christmas and good video. I wanted to mention though for challenges like these, especially if the final product is only gonna be four minutes long, seeing the failed attempts as you adapt your strategy would be really really nice. It's not about the destination, it's about the journey :)
Understandable, I’ll include some more failed runs in the future. This one doesn’t have them because they has bad audio :)
What if you just wait out your own clock? Ez loss
Then youre losing to time, not worstfish
@shirothefish9688 im bad at chess. I'll take any loss I can get xD
I’m addicted to this!Merry Christmas to you!
Merry Christmas to you as well 🎁
I like the jester hat in the thumbnail. The jester will get his revenge from the grave!
Hahaha hopefully I’ll be long gone before these bots become sentient 🥸
I lost against worstfish before. Best feeling ever.
Merry Christmas mate, congrats on your first 10% game!! Keep the channel up, work hard and we'll celebrate your first 20% game with you too
Thank you!!! I appreciate that and more to come :)
Pro tip: First block the b/g pawn, then go to a corner so that the b/g pawn can check you, then capture all his pieces except that b/g pawn, then force him to push his pawn with his king next to it
I did this a while back and it was literally 130 blunders between us.
LOL That means you played well hahaha
@ hahahaha right
just resign.
“I wish to counter-resign!”
Merry Christmas! Hope you enjoy this special day. Edit: The sound quality seems perfecty good to me, so yeah!
You as well!!! 🎄
First time viewer, new sub.
Really enjoy your style, your narration and way if presenting things seems very natural and plays very well with the 'stream of conciousness' analysis
Audio seems great too btw.
I appreciate the kind comment and also the feedback on the audio :)
THE GOAT IS BACK!!
I like your vibe, nice video!
I appreciate that!
i have a strategy i use against worstfish, you take all his pieces except for one pawn then stalemate his king then box your king in so he is forced to push the pawn & mate you
That’s an interesting strategy!
the name "iwantcheckmate" still checks out...from a new perspective
iwantcheckmated confirmed
Bro found a way to force the bot to checkmate him😂
Why is the bot that is programmed to " commit suicide as soon as possible " and be " the worst one at the thing he do " have a trans flag, i find that really out of touch to put that flag there from the person that made the bot
Interestingly I thought it was an effort at representation by the bots creator since creating bots is not necessarily easy. It is unclear
Sounds pretty in touch based on those parameters; isn't the rate like 41% or something
That was my thought too. Like there's no doubt in my mind that wasn't the intention, but I would expect the kind of people who feel the need to insert these symbols everywhere would be sensitive to the very obvious implications here.
At least it shows that trans people do not have an advantage just because they're trans.
@@enigmaticheart666
No
This number is pretty old and has more to do with how people were treated than anything else
Merry Christmas! Love the vids. Always a good time🎉🎄🎁
Merry Christmas to you as well! And thank you :D
at 2:10 couldn't he have played Qxh2 which forces Rxh2#? Or did I miss something?
Ng3 blocks the check, and later the king can move to e4 which undoes the setup for mate :)
Audio is very sufficient
Excellent, thank you for the feedback
Worstfish playing like Martin
How to always lose to worstfish, lose on time
This is really entertaining sadly it ended so short but good video enjoyed it alot
Thank you! I’m going to include failed runs in the future for more content :)
To do the worst, you have to do the best - Sun Tzu, but yeah get up so many points that his only legal move is to checkmate you
That’s so funny I’m actually reading the Art of War right now!
2:37 Qf7+
Computer analysing this game would be mad af😂
The audio does sounds better than the last video for sure.
Good to know, thank you!
🩵🩷🤍🩷🩵 Trans Rights Are Human Rights! 🏳️⚧️
Yeah!
Now why is there a trans flag next to worstfish tho? What is it being there trying to say about trans people?
@@thecringequeen31 I don't know. Maybe to show that trans people suck and don't have a biological advantage just because they are trans lol
Jokes aside, I really have no idea. Maybe it's just well meant representation?
Anyway hope it's not meant badly... If it is, Trans Rights Are Human Rights 🩵🩷🤍🩷🩵 still counts and I'll still love all of my trans bros, sisters and enbys.
GOING AGAINST YOUR CORE RULE, TRYING TO NOT GET CHECKMATE
How the mighty fall
I think I lost brain cells trying to follow worstfish.
Sounds about right hahaha
love your vids!
Thank you! :)
nice video!
Thanks! :)
@@iwantcheckmate np! you lost so fast lol
Now thia is the video that suites your channel name
2:32 wouldn’t Qxh2 work here instead?
Knight would block
Almost! But Ng3 blocks like the other commenter said. Good question!
@@iwantcheckmate it is he
Merry Christmas that was epic! 🎉
Thank you!! Merry Christmas to you as well :)
Merry Christmas iwantcheckmate, excited to see Martin tomorrow! :)
Merry Christmas! :)
Do a game playing against a bot that chooses the best move 50% of the time and the worst 50% of the time 😂😂
Here is an idea! Play a chess game against a bot, but you must make one of every type of move during the game, via intuition! It would include some like
Brilliant
Great
Best
Excellent
Good
Missed Win
Inaccuracy
Mistake
Blunder
Forced
I like this idea! Thanks!
@@iwantcheckmate ❤
Merry christmas! For christmas i wish you 6k subs! I dont really celebrate it so i dunno how it works 😅
Hahaha thank you! The spirit is there! Merry Christmas to you as well :)
Wost fish vs worst fish
This was fun to watch. I'd have thought it'd be basically impossible to put the bot in a position where mating is the only move.
If I'm not wrong, the problem is that the computer still assumes that their opponent will make the best move possible.
I imagine this challenge would be extremely difficult, if that was fixed.
@@onecommunistboi Nice pfp comrade 👍
Interesting, the way I lost to Worstfish is that I made a position where the only possible (he could only move his pawn) move for him was checkmate, and I also gotten a worse accuracy than Worstfish in that game. That way is better probably because I only needed one try for it.
Nice! Yeah sounds pretty consistent
To everyone saying iwantcheckmate didn't want a checkmate, that's simply not true. He did want a checkmate; just not for himself.
I like this way of thinking
I lost by checkmate to is 2 days ago, by forcing checkmate up 54 points of material
Great vid! Just some friendly feedback, I’d personally like it if you included some games in your vids where you don’t win? Hearing you mention that you had already played previous games and that the recording starts with *this* one immediately gives away the conclusion. Playing whacky bots or changing the rules doesn’t really do much if every vid begins and ends with a single game? Just a thought, your channel is great and good luck with it!
That’s a great point. I’ll do some future videos with the full process and see if the longer format sticks :)
I agree with the point of this comment, but it's funny in this context since iwcm in fact lost right off the bat!
Oh I get it he is trying to checkmate yellow😮😮😮
How are you recording the audio? Like what mic are you using?
I use a Blue Yeti
This was way too fun for how stupid the game looked, also merry Christmas.
Hahahaha yes it was, merry Christmas to you as well!!
Someone had done it before
Worstfish isn't trying to lose. It's trying to play the worst move against someone trying to win.
I would have to assume that if someone actually created a stockfish that tried to lose no human could lose to it.
I heard it is easy (still pretty dang hard) to beat worst fish. You just have to limit its options. In a way that the only one is checkmate. I’ve seen it done before
1:35 Completely just a guess but I think it's not the worst stockfish move since that would be the worst move assuming you're trying to win.
Instead it probably works by inverting the evaluation of the board and then picking the "best" move like usual. This way, it assumes you are also trying to make the worst move.
That makes a lot more sense
I think you have it backwards. Otherwise this challenge would be as difficult as winning against stockfish, no?
@@onecommunistboi
I'm just a gal on the Internet and definitely not an expert. I am very likely wrong on some details.
My guess is that the *only* thing worst fish does is swap the evaluation. It doesn't change how the evaluation works, so things like positional tactics are still taken into account.
If you actually want to make a bot for this "losing" variant of chess, you'd want an entirely new evaluation. Human players have an advantage here in the same way we did against early chess bots.
Also, I feel like the worst move in most positions (with normal stockfish) is just intentionally blundering as many pieces as possible which this doesn't seem to be doing.
Worstfish doesn't really "try to lose", it "tries to make a move so bad that even if someone else took over and played perfectly afterwards they would still be losing". If worstfish were really trying to lose then it wouldn't try to blunder its pieces in most instances, and it would also be taking the opponent's pieces too in some contexts (if they can see a "forced checkmate".. where you're forcing the opponent to checkmate you) - blundering pieces only makes your position worse if you're assuming that both players are trying to win, but if both players are trying to lose then capturing your opponents pieces is actually advantageous (if you can remove your opponent's pieces then you can control the game and force them to checkmate you).
I was curious and actually looked it up, and I am just entirely wrong.
Worstfish checks all legal moves uses a normal stockfish evaluation (with a time limit of 0.1 seconds or shorter) and basically picks the move that is the best for the opponent, preferring non check/captures then checks, then captures if the evaluations are equal.
I want checkmate's understanding and the comment above are basically correct.
I think it would be interesting to see my idea.
Source: VisibleReality/lichess-worstfish/blob/master/strategies.py
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have you heard of losing on time?
Would it not be better if worstfish played like actual stockfish and then forced you to checkmate it in the endgame to guarantee a loss
That’s a good point
Sound is fine
Appreciate the feedback!
There was a little bit of buzz but I think that was just your natural voice. The audio sounded good overall. So, then, the question is, what is the fewest amount of moves one can manage to lose to worst fish in? What you did there seemed close.
Thanks for the feedback! And that would be a good video, seeing how low we can go
idk what u talkin about u sound solid
Thanks for the feedback! I tried something new so just wanted to be sure
A proper worstfish would probably be basically impossible to lose to... if not actually impossible to lose to. It'd probably just be a draw, even only at the engine level rather than at perfect play like normal chess might be.
Just run your clock down or game abandoned ;)
How do I play against worst fish?
On lichess.org, search username and challenge bot
Its kinda weird to want to lose but not accept check
How do you play worstfish on Lichess?
Search for the username and challenge the bot
Yooo im under 20 mins, can u do my idea pls I was the one who said "how many peices do I need to remove to get beaten by martin" and also pls reply
Yeah! Lots of requests for that so I’ll be sure to do it soon :)
Ty :D
the audio is good now
dont know why but only your last video had issues (dont look down that one )
Thank you! I appreciate you letting me know I was a bit worried it would sound weird again.
2:50 why doesn't queen takes h2 work?
oh nevermind the knight can block it