My experiences have led me to believe that lifter to bore clearance can have a significant effect on oil pressure. I’ve sent the same set of lifters back to be rebuilt during the freshen up and noticed that the polishing process was reducing the diameter of the lifter body. Oil pressure began fluctuating more than the customer was comfortable with. One of the few times that I had the foresight to document this particular change. The customer ordered a new set of lifters. Same brand. They were .0015” larger in diameter. Changed then after two races only replacing the lifters and noting the clearance changes. Oil pressure returned to normal. Maybe obvious to some experienced builders however the idea will meet resistance from various people. Such is life I guess. We tend to scrutinize rod and main bearing clearance even cam bearing clearance. Few people I’ve been around will document lifter bore clearance. It seems to count in my experiences.
You are correct. Lifter to bore clearance is how the lifter is fed oil. Clearance should be from .0015 to .0018" Also oil centistoke needs to be correct. You want a centistoke rating of below 15 at 100C.
Cam bearing clearance is huge contributor to oil pressure, (pressure being resistance to flow), a lot of people just thing more pressure = better, but that isn't a hard rule.
20 psi at idle is plenty and nothing to worry about. All that matters is that there's a thick enough hydrodynamic wedge between the rod and main bearings and the crank journals, and in the cam bearings. The rest of the lubrication points don't really depend on oil pressure to keep things lubricated. The loads on the crank journals are tiny at idle and 20psi there is plenty.
You tell people that Harley Davidson engines had roller cams, a dry sump oiling system, and hemispherical combustion chambers in 1936 and nobody will believe you, but it’s true!
The Morels hemorrhage oil when the side window aligns with the oil feed. It puts direct galley pressure to a .020” feed hole on one side of the roller wheel. A better plan is to use BAM, or similar, which feed the axle from both sides, using oil metered from the body to bore clearance. If we’re machining a block to use the Morels, we clock the back banded lifter bushing feed hole to a location on the lifter that doesn’t intersect directly with the cutouts on the lifter. Between the side and front holes.
Howard's cams lifters are morels , street , max effort , race , all of them summit racing are morels , as well as others. Morel has not been real great lately , we have got some with no oil hole in side of lifter to feed it oil . Had some that last a few hours and start making noise.
Thank you Eric for correcting your mis-information. Also on oil pressure. Mercury marine has a very good R&D program. Mercury's shut off for low oil pressure for marine engines is 9# at idle. The Guardian system will shut the engine down if oil pressure at idle is below 9#. Mercury has always been on the conservative side when it comes to engine safety.
Thanks for your honesty. That particular lifter on the left is actually a morel with Isky’s name on it. I’ve had that lifter lose rollers and Straub doesn’t like them on bigger cams like .700 or higher. I’ve had that same Isky badged morel delaminate mostly because of my excessive car show idling. It is about 300 a set cheaper than the ultra pros. Isky ran them for a bit for some shortage or parts issues. Thanks again.
Oil band style lifter with lobe lift over .400" is not a good plan. The loss of surface area on the front back side of the body reduces stability on higher lift lobes and rpm.
I enjoy your videos. You are truly a humble person as so many on you tube have a big head and won't admit they're wrong even when presented with evidence to the contrary. Keep up the vids!
Great Content & Honesty Sir, What's your Opinion on Low Leakdown Lifters, Thinking about the Johnson 2110R in New OEM Trays for NA 416 Stroker, Low 553 Lift
Eric, lots of questions: Where and how is the oil pressure measured on that block, and where is the lifter / cam in the oil path? If the mains have priority oiling (cam second), wouldn't the flow to the mains be the same, and simply some flow restriction changed with the lifter? Also: does that automatically mean significantly more oil on the cam - could that perhaps depend on the pump/system? Do you only need a very high oil pressure when the hole in the lifter is too small and you need to flow more oil faster -- is it perhaps ok to have low oil pressure at low rpm because it does flow enough oil through the low restriction / larger hole?
What are good morel or howards solid rollers for 7500 rom no one puts rpm limits on there solid rollers its kinda important to know what they will spin to
Hey Eric, Awesome videos. Have you used any of the Jesel Sportsman Series Tie-Bars ? Looking like a pretty decent roller lifter for the money. Love to see a comparison some time. Cheers.
I guess it's hard to find any good lifters. Last year did a cam in an L86. Right out of the box Texas speed lifter was bad. Now a year has gone by. Another lifter failed. Except this time the roller pin broke destroyed it all😑
Good Video. Hey we all make mistakes and learn, and help each other learn/benefit. I would like to get your take/see a video on Solid Rollers with Rev kits. I am a boat guy, and have run 0.600 lift solid rollers in boats for up to 15 plus years with NO failures (crower solid full bodied rollers with needle bearings), or lifter changes. Pre-LS small blocks that live at 5800 to 6000 RPMS. I have always believed rollers are deigned to roll (not skid) , but most cam maufacturers use these style lifters that you show, where you need full bodied lifters to run a rev kit. Being an engineer by trade, I was suprised that (3) major cam manufacturers said rev kits are old technology, or junk / not needed, and that valve spring technology has come so far that they are no longer required.
I had a 6.2 diesel that I bought out of a wrecking yard. It ran fine but had only 20 or so lbs. of oil pressure cold and would hardly move the needle when hot AT ANY RPM! I pulled the pan checked the bearings and replaced the oil pump with no change. I needed the vehicle so I decided to run it until I could rebuild my old motor. It ran for 2 years and finally blew the head gaskets. When I tore it down the rod & main bearings were fine as were all the roller lifters and cam. The oil pressure loss was because the #1 cam bearing was no longer in the block and was bouncing around on the cam between the block and the first cam lobe. I have no longer worried much if the oil pressure was a little low as long as a engine sounds good.
I get why people are scared of lower oil pressures at idle. They have been conditioned to think they need a certain amount...and while the engine is under LOAD that is true, but just at idle, an engine only needs enough pressure to push through the engine and return it to the pan. I know of a few engines where the factory spec says that 4psi is enough at idle. The side benefit to it is that there is less power being consumed by the oil pump.
@@shanerorko8076 But you still don't need that much. Most people run a melling high volume/pressure pump that they don't need, and then think 60-70 lbs at idle is good. 15-25 is plenty at idle. The vast majority out there are losing 3-5 horses all day long just on oil pressure alone.
@@shelbyavant5081 Turbo guys dont care about 3-5 horses. Thats like .1psi too many of them. Making power isnt the problem. Making shit live is the problem
@@Saddedude I commented, as an engine builder, on how much it takes for "shit to live", if that's the juvenile way you want to put it. I also added the provable fact that parasitic loss from things like the oil pressure/volume being too high, or even a mechanical fuel pump or poorly aligned distributor etc. can rob horsepower at a measurable quantity. Everything you do to make it easier for the engine to spin makes power AND longevity. Less oil pressure means less bypassing of the filter, less wear on the pump, it goes on and on, but you go ahead and worry about making it live without sweating the details that professionals like me have employed for decades.
@@shelbyavant5081 As a professional you would understand the needs of a turbo car and a n/a car are drastically different. The amount of squish on the bearings for example being significantly harsher on a turbo car. Turbo cars also require more oil flow for the turbo itself and for a cooler hopefully.
Oil pressure at idle is not very important. As long as you have some pressure. There is no load on the engine. Also, it amazes me how many people get bothered by the Morel hydraulic rollers being a little bit noisy. I've run them for many years and they have been perfect. It's a performance engine. So it's going to be a little noisy!
1psi to every 100rpm is sufficient if using proper oil viscosity. At least that is the old school rule of thumb. Kudos on admitting you were wrong about something. I didn't see the original one you were wrong about. Just saying it takes a better man to admit his wrongs, etc.... blah, blah, blah!!!! LOL!!! So have we figured out what that oil hole is for yet???
All roller tappets, from all manus, with a 360 annular groove are garbage; however this is mostly talking over 7 thousand rpm . Of course getting rid of the annular groove starts at 100 dollars minimum .
I was also wrong about Morel lifters. My mistake was buying them. Total rubbish. Morel part number 5321 0.904" for small block mopar hyd roller. NOISY as hell. Rattle like crazy. i have adjusted them with no lash, 1/4 turn, 1/2 , 1 1 1/2 turns all the same. Tried 3 different weight oils no difference. If I could get them out without taking my heads off (which you cant on a Mopar) I would throw them in the trash and get something else. Correct spring pressure on seat and nose. Lifter bores all freshly bronze sleeved with rebuild. Absolutely disgusted with this Morel rubbish.
Авто/Мото
My experiences have led me to believe that lifter to bore clearance can have a significant effect on oil pressure.
I’ve sent the same set of lifters back to be rebuilt during the freshen up and noticed that the polishing process was reducing the diameter of the lifter body.
Oil pressure began fluctuating more than the customer was comfortable with. One of the few times that I had the foresight to document this particular change.
The customer ordered a new set of lifters. Same brand. They were .0015” larger in diameter. Changed then after two races only replacing the lifters and noting the clearance changes.
Oil pressure returned to normal.
Maybe obvious to some experienced builders however the idea will meet resistance from various people. Such is life I guess.
We tend to scrutinize rod and main bearing clearance even cam bearing clearance. Few people I’ve been around will document lifter bore clearance.
It seems to count in my experiences.
You are correct. Lifter to bore clearance is how the lifter is fed oil. Clearance should be from .0015 to .0018" Also oil centistoke needs to be correct. You want a centistoke rating of below 15 at 100C.
.0015 is not polishing! My crank polisher would say it's time for different bearings...
@@straubtechnologies9011 How is , centistoke rating achieved? The viscosity of oil as it's use inside the engine?
The lifters had been sent back for rebuilding multiple times over the corse of several years.
Cam bearing clearance is huge contributor to oil pressure, (pressure being resistance to flow), a lot of people just thing more pressure = better, but that isn't a hard rule.
20 psi at idle is plenty and nothing to worry about. All that matters is that there's a thick enough hydrodynamic wedge between the rod and main bearings and the crank journals, and in the cam bearings. The rest of the lubrication points don't really depend on oil pressure to keep things lubricated. The loads on the crank journals are tiny at idle and 20psi there is plenty.
I love how the latest and greatest lifters are 1906 Harley Davidson lifters.
You tell people that Harley Davidson engines had roller cams, a dry sump oiling system, and hemispherical combustion chambers in 1936 and nobody will believe you, but it’s true!
And they Blew Up a lot!! Especially EVO's
At the end about the low oil pressure, I had to replay it😂😂 it sounds like you said your gonna lose at least 5 friends
I have morel lifters in my BBChevy, as long as you have a good oil pump it’s not an issue.
The Morels hemorrhage oil when the side window aligns with the oil feed. It puts direct galley pressure to a .020” feed hole on one side of the roller wheel.
A better plan is to use BAM, or similar, which feed the axle from both sides, using oil metered from the body to bore clearance.
If we’re machining a block to use the Morels, we clock the back banded lifter bushing feed hole to a location on the lifter that doesn’t intersect directly with the cutouts on the lifter. Between the side and front holes.
Refreshing to hear a man admit he was wrong about something!!! Character does matter!!!
Howard's cams lifters are morels , street , max effort , race , all of them summit racing are morels , as well as others. Morel has not been real great lately , we have got some with no oil hole in side of lifter to feed it oil . Had some that last a few hours and start making noise.
Thank you Eric for correcting your mis-information. Also on oil pressure. Mercury marine has a very good R&D program. Mercury's shut off for low oil pressure for marine engines is 9# at idle. The Guardian system will shut the engine down if oil pressure at idle is below 9#. Mercury has always been on the conservative side when it comes to engine safety.
oil flow is more important than oil pressure as the oil flow has to carry the heat away.
Thanks for your honesty. That particular lifter on the left is actually a morel with Isky’s name on it. I’ve had that lifter lose rollers and Straub doesn’t like them on bigger cams like .700 or higher. I’ve had that same Isky badged morel delaminate mostly because of my excessive car show idling. It is about 300 a set cheaper than the ultra pros. Isky ran them for a bit for some shortage or parts issues. Thanks again.
Oil band style lifter with lobe lift over .400" is not a good plan. The loss of surface area on the front back side of the body reduces stability on higher lift lobes and rpm.
I enjoy your videos. You are truly a humble person as so many on you tube have a big head and won't admit they're wrong even when presented with evidence to the contrary. Keep up the vids!
How about the lifters with the bushings instead of needles. Do they last longer?
I regularly see the same concerns with Johnson axle oiling lifters. What is your opinion of Johnson vs the other brands you've seen?
10 psi per 1000 rpm's and your golden. 25 psi at idle for feel good is nice though.
Love how your short videos are still longer than many other's long videos 🤣
Great Content & Honesty Sir, What's your Opinion on Low Leakdown Lifters, Thinking about the Johnson 2110R in New OEM Trays for NA 416 Stroker, Low 553 Lift
Eric, lots of questions: Where and how is the oil pressure measured on that block, and where is the lifter / cam in the oil path? If the mains have priority oiling (cam second), wouldn't the flow to the mains be the same, and simply some flow restriction changed with the lifter? Also: does that automatically mean significantly more oil on the cam - could that perhaps depend on the pump/system? Do you only need a very high oil pressure when the hole in the lifter is too small and you need to flow more oil faster -- is it perhaps ok to have low oil pressure at low rpm because it does flow enough oil through the low restriction / larger hole?
10 psi per thousand RPM is safe oil pressure
What are good morel or howards solid rollers for 7500 rom no one puts rpm limits on there solid rollers its kinda important to know what they will spin to
Hey Eric,
Awesome videos.
Have you used any of the Jesel Sportsman Series Tie-Bars ?
Looking like a pretty decent roller lifter for the money. Love to see a comparison some time.
Cheers.
I haven’t yet.
I guess it's hard to find any good lifters. Last year did a cam in an L86. Right out of the box Texas speed lifter was bad. Now a year has gone by. Another lifter failed. Except this time the roller pin broke destroyed it all😑
I need a, Couple of Sets of the TRW Flat Tappet Chevy Racing Hydralic LIFTERS.. Are They Still out There??
Have you tried using hydraulic rollers? They last a lot longer. I think the manufacturer suggests replacing solid lifters annually.
I guess if you see a pressure drop it's time for a bigger pump and a better sump.
Good Video. Hey we all make mistakes and learn, and help each other learn/benefit. I would like to get your take/see a video on Solid Rollers with Rev kits. I am a boat guy, and have run 0.600 lift solid rollers in boats for up to 15 plus years with NO failures (crower solid full bodied rollers with needle bearings), or lifter changes. Pre-LS small blocks that live at 5800 to 6000 RPMS. I have always believed rollers are deigned to roll (not skid) , but most cam maufacturers use these style lifters that you show, where you need full bodied lifters to run a rev kit. Being an engineer by trade, I was suprised that (3) major cam manufacturers said rev kits are old technology, or junk / not needed, and that valve spring technology has come so far that they are no longer required.
Thank you sir.. love your videos
I'm a Mopar guy. What do Morel .904 roller lifters cost? Where can I get them? Not somethin' ya find at Summit, Jegs, CP, etc.
Did both lifters measure the same??
I was told it don’t matter what name is on them . Most lifters are made by morel
in the oval track world the morel bars seems to have issues in breaking
Just swap the bars out or have a new set coated with chrome.
Oil flow lubricates. Oil pressure makes the driver feel better
I had a 6.2 diesel that I bought out of a wrecking yard. It ran fine but had only 20 or so lbs. of oil pressure cold and would hardly move the needle when hot AT ANY RPM! I pulled the pan checked the bearings and replaced the oil pump with no change. I needed the vehicle so I decided to run it until I could rebuild my old motor. It ran for 2 years and finally blew the head gaskets. When I tore it down the rod & main bearings were fine as were all the roller lifters and cam. The oil pressure loss was because the #1 cam bearing was no longer in the block and was bouncing around on the cam between the block and the first cam lobe. I have no longer worried much if the oil pressure was a little low as long as a engine sounds good.
always learning.. its hard with wide variety of engine these days specailly performance thats why im here learning
6👍's up thanks again for sharing
I get why people are scared of lower oil pressures at idle. They have been conditioned to think they need a certain amount...and while the engine is under LOAD that is true, but just at idle, an engine only needs enough pressure to push through the engine and return it to the pan. I know of a few engines where the factory spec says that 4psi is enough at idle. The side benefit to it is that there is less power being consumed by the oil pump.
If you have a big cam and high spring pressures then you want good oil pressure at idle.
@@shanerorko8076 But you still don't need that much. Most people run a melling high volume/pressure pump that they don't need, and then think 60-70 lbs at idle is good. 15-25 is plenty at idle. The vast majority out there are losing 3-5 horses all day long just on oil pressure alone.
@@shelbyavant5081 Turbo guys dont care about 3-5 horses. Thats like .1psi too many of them. Making power isnt the problem. Making shit live is the problem
@@Saddedude I commented, as an engine builder, on how much it takes for "shit to live", if that's the juvenile way you want to put it. I also added the provable fact that parasitic loss from things like the oil pressure/volume being too high, or even a mechanical fuel pump or poorly aligned distributor etc. can rob horsepower at a measurable quantity. Everything you do to make it easier for the engine to spin makes power AND longevity. Less oil pressure means less bypassing of the filter, less wear on the pump, it goes on and on, but you go ahead and worry about making it live without sweating the details that professionals like me have employed for decades.
@@shelbyavant5081 As a professional you would understand the needs of a turbo car and a n/a car are drastically different.
The amount of squish on the bearings for example being significantly harsher on a turbo car. Turbo cars also require more oil flow for the turbo itself and for a cooler hopefully.
Oil pressure at idle is not very important. As long as you have some pressure. There is no load on the engine. Also, it amazes me how many people get bothered by the Morel hydraulic rollers being a little bit noisy. I've run them for many years and they have been perfect. It's a performance engine. So it's going to be a little noisy!
Awesome that was awesome to know thank you most people wouldn't even tell anyone that that's cool
Eric I hear that the BAM lifters are better than Morel
Absolutely no comparison. Morel are average at best.
When you going to dyno that camaro?
The engine has been on the dyno.
@@WeingartnerRacing Was there a video
Thanks
1psi to every 100rpm is sufficient if using proper oil viscosity. At least that is the old school rule of thumb.
Kudos on admitting you were wrong about something. I didn't see the original one you were wrong about. Just saying it takes a better man to admit his wrongs, etc.... blah, blah, blah!!!! LOL!!! So have we figured out what that oil hole is for yet???
You might want to remind the customer... The lower the ol presure the higher the HP. No damage Win Win. Wimps lose.
All roller tappets, from all manus, with a 360 annular groove are garbage; however this is mostly talking over 7 thousand rpm . Of course getting rid of the annular groove starts at 100 dollars minimum .
I was also wrong about Morel lifters. My mistake was buying them. Total rubbish.
Morel part number 5321 0.904" for small block mopar hyd roller. NOISY as hell. Rattle like crazy. i have adjusted them with no lash, 1/4 turn, 1/2 , 1 1 1/2 turns all the same. Tried 3 different weight oils no difference. If I could get them out without taking my heads off (which you cant on a Mopar) I would throw them in the trash and get something else.
Correct spring pressure on seat and nose. Lifter bores all freshly bronze sleeved with rebuild.
Absolutely disgusted with this Morel rubbish.
I totally agree but according to their main salesman the only problem they have is the customers.
I need to replace my pressure sensor,
I guess you don’t like morel lifters
I like them just hard to get right now and the salesmanship of some are annoying.
Sorry ... Posted before watching the entire video
Who cares