Bb/Fe Ford Roller Lifter problems to be aware of
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- Опубликовано: 18 фев 2024
- Customer sends in his roller cam and lifters because of lifters band hieght problems
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I enjoy videos where the presenter is; paying attention, explains it well, has clear images, knows their stuff. Nice work. Interesting topics are just a bonus.
Thank you very much!
I've had a hand in assembling probably as few as 10 engines in my life and never paused to think about this. You have helped many.
Ty!
Hey Daniel,
Tim here, THATS my buddies cam/lifters for his FE, my shop is building a stroked 428 SCJ for a customer, getting a new cam (i didnt like the look of a few lobes, with gouges in them), and our SS bud said its no good, so ok, new cam, and its comin with Johnson lifters....are we gonna see the same shit??.....we are consulting with the FE guru in Tenn......forget his name at momemt......i suggested to boss-man that a set of Gatorman lifters mite be the ticket, and send those awful Johnsons back......Glad my man took the vid, sent to Johnson and Isky, then sent to you!!....he asked me if i knew of you, i said, "HELL YEA, I GOT 2 OF HIS T-SHIRTS"......so smart dudes think alike.......you have provided evidence, and smart measuring to explain the issue, i will mark it in my head....THANKS for takin care of my boy, he's a good dude, just wants it rite, like i do, so, Gatormans mite be how we go...TY sir!!!!...sorry so long, had alot to cover...PEACE TO YOU sir!!
Ty, and no problem!
Man....I miss the days of good parts....took the simple things for granted and didn,t even know it back in the day...Nice video man.
Ty
loving your videos. it amazes me how these big name companies keep churning out garbage products and idiots keep buying them.
Yup
I like to keep up to date on supply chain issues thank you for your ongoing to diligence
Definitely
So many variables, so much to go wrong. Excellent video - everything clearly presented and thoroughly explained. Thank you!
Glad it was helpful!
Love the video, I've got both a 390 and a 429 I'm starting to tear down. Thanks, great information
Glad to help
Certainly eye-opening. The numerous things to be considered when building or upgrading an engine.
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This is a very interesting video from the point of adding new tech to old iron. In the Pontiac world they did a couple videos and there are companies selling retrofit lifter kits using LS7 lifters in them. Thanks for the video.
GREAT video! There is lots of JUNK parts out running around for the FORD FE. Mostly because it is one of the most misunderstood engines ever made. Especially when you get into the many versions of the FE 427, Between the low riser medium riser high riser and the tunnel port all of them had different valve geometry.
Right on
I had some issues with comp lifters in a fe a while back. They were ground way to small and had about .0035 lifter bore clearance, and varried in size up to .0008” I went with a set of Johnson’s and that solved the clearance issue and they ran much quieter too. Cam must have been smaller because they didn’t have any issues coming out of the bore. But this is just another example of you can’t assume anything is correct anymore out of the box.
Yep, I've heard this
Thanks for the info Daniel! I'm sure everyone will be lookin at this issue every time!
Your welcome
Thanks for the video.
Yw!
Great job making difficult easy to understand.
Glad it was helpful!
"Bleeding to death," is the best description for such a situation. Excellent information to share. I'm currently building a CS aluminum 482ci FE for a client, and this has been my #1 concern as we approach camshaft choice. Great explanation and visual aids. Please continue to share any FE information. It's scarce.
Lmk, we can grind you a cam.
@@powellmachineinc3179 thank you. I'll reach out soon.
you mentioned the engine bleeding, this reminded me of a 454 big block chevy i rebuilt and i tried to re use the pushrods with new lifters, Big mistake I smoked 2 rocker arms and was so glad that was all it was! whew it was close. I was listening to it while breaking in the cam and the moment I herd noise I shut the engine off and found the problem.
Another great video. Keep up the good work. Can't wait for the next one.
More to come!
Another great video! Thanks for sharing your information with us.
Absolutely 💯
Love your videos. I had this problem with a comp hydraulic roller cam for my 455 Oldsmobile engine and I had to go with Morell lifters. I never heard of gator lifters.
Gaterman has been around a long time, it's good stuff, we use tons of them
Interesting. Good information.
Thanks for watching!
Powell, please hope you call Johnson tech support and ask about this and request engineering documents to see if this is how they were designed and manufactured by Johnson, then explain your situation and get back to us in a follow up video. Since the customer gave these to you, the provenance could reasonably be suspect, and also could these be counterfeit? Something to think about.
The customer has sent the vid to Johnson waiting on engineering to view and respond
Great information, great video. Love the Ford stuff, especially FE content.
More to come!
Great presentation
Thanks
Glad you liked it!
Another excellent, informative video. I really enjoy this channel.
Thank you very much!
wow!! just wow! this is perfect timing.. I have a buddy who is restoring an old short school bus with an FE engine and is having issues with oil pressure after putting together a mild performance build for it.. im pretty sure he mentioned johnson lifters... this may be excatly where his oil pressure is going .. ill definitely send him the link.. I never thought to have him check this.. i was sending him down the rabbit hole of plastigauging his bearings and such thinking there was clearance issues..
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Really appreciate your content. I know you're trying to be as precise as possible but with one of the tie bar lifters held perpendicular to the surface plate by the v block the other lifter is close enough to plumb that you could measure it with a lot less obstruction. 5 degrees out of plumb (the tie bars have SOME clearance after all) yields a measurement within 4% (cosine 5° = .9962). There's likely way more variation in the height of the lifter bores in the block than that.
Ty, definitely
I dig your style of teaching, it even reaches non-mechanical folks like myself.... that said, I'm starting to see the reasons why
the manufacturers build might be the most sound as they are responsible for lemons else no one will buy their cars? But the
big thing I'm finally seeing is how far off base the engine becomes as more aftermarket parts are installed? An "engine" is a
finely tuned set of components but changing just one part can throw the whole thing out of "tune". Each show I see more of
the picture in how a parts changer is different from real mechanic. You're proving parts are sized incorrectly straight from
places we'd think could be trusted, Wrong! Sorry for my long rants but IDKnow much so I am asking. thanks for the videos
Tyvm, we appreciate all feedback!
Very educational and great video
Ty
Fantastic educational video
Glad you think so!
Thank you Sir God bless .glad i am learning of this
You are very welcome
So I just took my set of Johnson lifters off the shelf, look the same as what you have there. Mocked it up in a CO 427. My cam is a Jones with a .375" lobe for .660" lift at the valve. None of the lifters had the oil hole come out of the bore at max lift. I will say that oil hole does come close. I measured at max lift it was about .100" down in the hole. What I am wondering is if the wheel is different on the set you have. From the bottom of the lifter to the top of the band I measure 1.632" on mine. Before I bought these I spoke to Isky as they were selling the Johnson lifter. Theirs only listed the 460. What I was told at the time was Johnson made them, but theirs had a .750" wheel and it would not work in an FE. Mine has the .700" wheel, although still that would only be .025" higher, but maybe it was not the only difference,, since theirs had the pressure oiling. The ones I have are the 2212BBR. Johnson does make a few different versions of this lifter. As with all this stuff devil is in the detail. One thing I will say is Johnson lifters are not junk and is a shame some on here are trashing them. Maybe they have a problem, don't know, but I'd think make more sense to contact the dealer or manufacture to at least see what they have to say.
There site lists 385/fe , obviously out of the crowd these are the problem child, I didn't say they were junk, we use them some, there's many block variations, casting differences ect, but the other brands never have this issue and a the inspection shows why.
I had a similar problem with Crowler and a SBC.
LOL@ Johnson's, I'm not surprised.
Can't see, how an expensive roller lifter manufacturer, can produce a product like this. Most expensive, usually means, the best. Correct me, if I'm wrong. Another, excellent upload!
My thoughts exactly
I've ran 1inch redcuced base circle cams in a block big block Chevy.
Schneider racing does this service. It blows the roller wheel straight into the water jacket. Wouldn't recommend it. Small base cams are the devil.
I had a similar issue with Johnson's BBC genv with the cut out for the oil hole it was only .09 below and depending on chambers it was close.I used them it did not seem to bleed off when I primed it ...but damn could you shift .100 down🤔
It's amazing how many "engine assemblers" that don't test and check as they go. Swing the crank after you install lifters look both sides obviously you would have found rod bolt and rod to cam clearance issues before this. Some lifters need scratches up to the oil hole on certain blocks
I wonder if thay are supposed to be in a bushed lifter galley
We that would be crazy
I kinda wondered the same thing as well. Or the lifter bore height has been machined down. Steve morris had a video out on bushed lifters in his personal engine.
Ahh the lifter debacle. Im trying to decide which solid roller link bar lifters to buy for my 351W/427 stroker build. Looking at Morrell and Jessel, no small base circle for me. I recently was eyeballing down through the lifter oil feed passageway with a std hydraulic roller in it to get some idea of what to look for in measurement on the lifters I order. I'm half tempted to machine a spacer to replace the guts in a std ford 5.0 roller lifter to turn it into a solid and run dog bones rather than link bar. IDK, may end up getting too much oil up top without some type of internal metering orifice inside my hollow lifter spacer.
We sell, Bam, there he best solid out there
@@powellmachineinc3179 Really? I've never heard of them. I thought it probably best to go with oil fed bushed roller rather than needle bearings but perhaps that's not necessary on a .650 lift billet cammed AFR 220 headed stroker. This is simply a street engine for an AC Cobra won't see too many miles but I don't want to have issues like flattened needle bearings. I'll have to check their website to see if these will work in non roller and roller blocks both. I have a decent supply of those, also 302's and 5.0 cores. Would be nice to have a solid roller that could be interchangeable with a pushrod changeout.
Johnson is by far the easiest to talk to on the phone, what did they say, going to make a video like this you got to do your diligence.
The Fe engine in particular has many wuirks that need to be addressed especally in the oiling system and oil pump driveshaft areas. Cam bearings need to line up with oil feeds to the rocker arms and the cam plug is backward from the coolant soft plugs . How many times have shops put the head gaskets on wrong and the engines turned blue ? I saw one You Tuber put hydraulic lifters in a block that was solid lifter only . 406 and most 427's are not drilled for hydraulic tappets .
Glad i have bought gaterman lifters for my build. As an aside would bushing the lifter bores with slightly higher bushings solve this FE problem with the Johnson lifters?
It would solve the band being exposed, but it still doesn't put the band in the correct location
Very good info sir. What is your opinion on sbf 289 small base circle cams with spider and oe lifters. Thanks
We haven't seen a small base circle needed
I was trying to figure out why you couldnt grind 0.225 off the whole cam. It would work even if its a ridiculous solution but you answered it. There is is no way there is that much heat treat and i should have known that. I also wonder if you would start to twist the cam if you tried to run it, thats a lot of metal to remove.
Definitely
Maybe they require bushings that sit 200 high out of the block, or do the factory roller blocks have a taller casting maybe?
No such thing as a factory roller Fe, and adding a bushing doesn't move the oil gallery, plus the description doesn't mention having to do a extra 5-800 bucks worth of extra work to make there lifters work
@@powellmachineinc3179 yeah I get it, I was just wondering if maybe that explained the issue. With our Australian Holden V8s, the 308, the newer roller blocks had taller bosses and this problem was common in early blocks.
@@bigmuz_pilot Yes you could bush the lifter bores, but unless you are doing that to correct worn out bores or to blueprint them would be a lot of extra expense. Think the point is if you haven't bought lifters then the Gatorman are a good (and less expensive) alternative. If you already have them I'd say test fit them and see if it causes a problem. If not run them and be happy. So far since Powell peaked my interest I've put them in 4 blocks I have laying around. One 427 CO and Three 390. With my cam which is a .375" lobe (.660" at valve) none uncovered the oil hole at the top. The worst I measured was just over .100" to the top. If you have more lift maybe could be a problem with some block, this is a you have to check deal. Honestly if you build engines it is all about quality machine work, good parts, and making sure everything plays together nice. For all my life any aftermarket "High performance" part required work.
Not sure about the smarts of the client if he just wants a smaller base circle - that's going to mess up the whole cam lobe shape and, if keeping the same nose radius/height from C/L, it will increase the lift to the same point as the leakage is occuring.
What he should be doing, if keeping the lifters, is buy a NEW camshaft with a smaller base circle and corresponding reduced nose lift of the lifter in it's bore.
It is also possible - I honestly have no idea on the differences - that he purchased the wrong set of the FOUR hydraulic options offered by Johnson for the engine?
I’m seeing issues with a lot of new parts across the board. I’m tearing down a engine right now that had a faulty oil pump right out of the box
I disassemble all oil pumps now and 100% measure and inspect everything
Great video and if it were me, GO SOLID ROLLER. Problem solved.😊
Really? How will a solid fix this issue?
@@powellmachineinc3179 not sure what a good fix would be, maybe convince the customer to switch. Can you run solid rollers on a camshaft meant for hydraulic rollers?
My cam grinder gave me the wrong length tie bar , broke top of the lifer after 250 miles . $7000 dollar rebuild !
Are roller cams lobes ground square to the centre line of the core , so does the cam move left and right ? Remember I was born upside down
Kit from down under
Yes, on center, no doesn't move
Always dissapointing when your johnson just dosen't fit right.
Yup
So…
What application are those Johnson lifters designed to successfully operate?
According to Johnson...385 series and Fe
i have a one piece seal sbc block that has a counterbore at the top of the lifter bores about a 1/4" deep. it came that way from the factory. works fine with stock or very mild cam but any lift over .500 and it starts blowing oil out of the lifter bore. never have seen anything like that before. why would they do that?
What the video again, and listen when I talk about lift
i used the block to build a stock engine. it worked fine for that. i just wonder why the factory machined the lifter bore that way. i saw one other guy on a forum mention he came across the same thing but it's the only one i've ever seen that way. did it serve some purpose to make it that way, or was it a mistake that made it past quality control?@@powellmachineinc3179
Is it possible to bush the lifter bores to eliminate this problem?
Mike
It would be much cheaper to to just get good lifters
Possibly designed for bushed lifter bores?
That doesn't change the gallery location, so it doesn't make any sense
Hi Daniel, just curious what the lift on the cam is in the vid
Like .600
Does apply to 351 Cleveland’s
Not sure on other brands, but gatermans are fine
So who makes a good lifter? I wanted to run Morel or Johnsons in the 408 build.
How do gatormans/morel/johnson compare on a LS?
I wouldn't run morel in my lawn mower
@@powellmachineinc3179 noted Lol, but why? Bad reputation for crappy products?
@GeorgeFarahGNR yes, random ticking... I had to warranty many set's.... I can't afford to sell them
Again, a good engine builder should know this or know to check this. Sounds like he checked it just to late. That is a somewhat expensive fix.
Nice informative video as always! Id go with the morels black mamba lifters. Ive never had any issues out of them… yet lol
Those are solid, so it doesn't help
I should have just said morels. I do run a solid ..
Real question here though, I understand that the hole being too high is a problem and I understand why, but wouldn't the actual measurement of how far down it needs to go be based on how far out it sticks from the lifter bore and not a comparison to the others?
With the johnsons apparently losing oil out the top and the two other brands not doing that, I think it is safe to say the two that don't have a problem are the right thing to compare them to. There isn't much difference between the good ones and the "bad" ones.
Exactly
@-_-DJ-_--- well I understand that, but he gave a number of how much to grind the cam down to make it match the others, not to make it not leak oil past them. I understand he doesn't have the engine to check it, but its entirely possible that a smaller Base circle cam would work if the hole is never uncovered. As in maybe this cam and lifter would work being ground for clearance if they barely stick out of the bore. Obviously not ideal, and still the end result is a junk lifter. But making it work MIGHT be possible depending on how much it sticks out
Did you ever verify that those Johnson lifters were the correct part number for an FE? And second, where did the customer purchase the lifters? There are a lot of counterfeit lifters out there.
Yes, there correct, was purchased through isky
Good morning sir. What breakin oil do you use for a Ls engine?
Normally Driven, but any quality oil is fine
Great thank you.
I mentioned you in one of my videos for my grandkids. I hope you don't mind sir. If you do I will delete it.
@@GrandPitoVic no, don't mind at all!
Thank you sir!!
Is that .114 just lower or lower and upper part of it ??
Top of oil band is .114 taller on Johnson
So thats .228 difference over all so 1/4" in rough term. That would be tight with wood and a hammer ... Never mind forged or machined items.. please excuse me if I'm wrong but that's😮
Thats crazy,R&D at that company...?
Lol
✌️
Dynamite!
Ty
Could that customer if he just had to use those lifters could he machine the lifter bores and sleeve them basically make them taller ? Why doesn’t he just use another lifter those Johnson’s are high dollar
That would cost 3 times what a correct set of lifters would cost
@@powellmachineinc3179 exactly my thoughts, I still wonder why would Johnson put oil hole so far up I don’t understand that design
Am I wrong or,,, reducing the base circle won't change the over the nose height., unless you grind the nose down the lifter will be at the same height. The only fix I can see is to bush the lifter bores and leave them a little tall.,or junk the lifters for a set with proper specs. Bad Q.C. during manufacturing.
It would be quite the mistake in machining to be near an 1/8 inch off on an entire set.
@@--_DJ_-- Bad program on a CNC and don't catch it for a while in quality control and there you go.,who knows how many sets made it out the door.
@@briana3467 That just seems remarkably unlikely to all occur on the same part. Maybe if it was the first run of the part and QC didn't show up to work that day something like this could slip out the door.
Anything is possible though so who knows.
A bad Band on your Johnson ...Thats terrible. If i was going to run that cam/lifter setup id bush the lifter bores and leave the bushings .200 proud if the tie bar would allow it
Something tells me those are 385 series lifters...
385 and fe are the same lifter
@@powellmachineinc3179 Lifter bore depth is the same as well ?
@@powellmachineinc3179 I seem to remember and it's been years ago and at the time I had a 460 and a 390 in the fleet,, that the 460 and small block Windsors and one of the 6 cylinders were the same lifter and interchangeable,, but FE lifters were always listed by themselves...
385 series and FE are not the same lifter. If you use 385 lifters in a FE this is the problem you will have. You must use FE lifters in a FE only. The 385 oil band is in the wrong location, it is up to high.
Ok,, I thought the FE lifter was specific to the FE but never knew or needed to know the details of why, THANKS ! @@justinheim9689
Isolated incident.
Wow ! Those can't be for an FE..... !
But they sre
I have been building FE engines and 385 series engines for 35 years. The FE has been in the family since 1958. You can not use 385 series lifters in a FE. The oil band is in the wrong location. You musy use FE lifters in a FE only. Your Johnson lifters are for A 385 series. Johnson catalogs these lifters sold as FE and big block ford lifters. I called them years ago and called them out on it. Told them they were wrong. Evidently my advice didn't go anywhere. This has been a known problem for 15-20 years. YOU MUST USE FE LIFTERS IN A FE ONLY.
Well...... if you go to there website and look it up you will see they list only 1 lifter and the description CLEARLY shows 385 AND Fe....so somebody is confused 😕
@@powellmachineinc3179 yup. That's true. Been that way for years. They are wrong and they will not believe it. That's why I called them on it. Also why I don't use there lifters.
@@justinheim9689 Have you actually ever run the lifter in an FE? Just asking, because my FE apparently did not get your memo and has been running fine with them for several years now. I even bought another set for an upcoming build. What you say about how the lifter is oiled is true as the oil hole is located different in a Fe than a 385 series, but depends on the lifter design if it will or will not work. In this case they do work just fine, at least for me. Now Johnson makes a lifter that looks almost identical for Isky and it even says Johnson on it, but that one will not work in an FE, only 385, but for other reasons. Really the way the internet is if they had a problem like that there would be threads all over FE power and Yellow Bullet about them. Just look at all the back and forth about the Morels and what oil you have to use. But anyway each to there own 🙂
Man i accidentally fast forwarded this video. Too funny might get a kick itz alright.
Lol
Hey Daniel,
Tim here, me, my buddy (the topic for the vid), and my boss, (a Dr. Ford kinda guy).....all had the same thought that we believe the 460 block has a longer lifter bore, so it wudnt be an issue......FE's we're pretty sure, have shorter bores, ergo, the oil hole is exposed at max lift......cant say for sure, and we cant find data to confirm, and dont have both blocks avail at moment to get a measurement.......my gripe is to WHY wud you put the feed hole ABOVE the oil band PERIOD!!....WHY??.....BAD engineering.....put it in the oil band......i can make restrictors to feed the shaft rocker system properly.....but that doesnt address the high oil hole at all......i chk'd out ur Gatormans, i liked where the feed hole is, AND liked how they chamfered/have a lead in to the feed hole, INSIDE THE OIL BAND!!!..what idiot decided that the feed hole shud be ABOVE the oil band???......i have no answer.......seems ur Gatormans are closest to proper control, our FE customer aint gonna like tryin to send back Johnsons.....but it AINT rite.......all of us are just tryin to make it rite.....once more, THANK YOU for ur time, expertise, and explanation.......seems when i sub'd a while back, was good, as i've known for almost a year now, how good you are.....i'm anal, pay attention, and engine building for me, is like a fine lady!!!!.....TY sir, again!!!
We have both blocks here, do I'm gonna do more investigation
Thank you for your knowledge and videos USA 🇺🇸 TRUMP 2024 2024
💯
god i hate FE's. hoping my Powell FE roller and gaterman lifters are trouble free
Sounds to me it's the johnsons not the FE....you heard Daniel and the others y who have posted problems with BB Chevys as well. FE's are unique in some ways just like any engine which is why always deal with a builder and machinist who is familiar and experienced with whatever engine your building. Lynkins (Brent) motorsports is a good one to deal with when building an FE as well I'm sure is Daniel
Counterfeit lifter??
No
I bet that is a Amazon Chinese knockoff lifter I was just looking at Amazon 😂😂😂
No, there legit
Typical problem to run into when mismatched cam and lifter assemblies are purchased. People thinking I'll just buy the most expensive lifters with no cam planning for it is a rookie mistake by someone who doesn't know what their doing.
The camshaft is irrelevant to the problem.