Japanese Pilots Enters the Runway in front of the landing airplane. Japan Air Boeing 787. REAL ATC
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- Опубликовано: 27 фев 2024
- On February 6, 2024.
A Japan Airlines Boeing 787-8 registration JA836J, performing flight JAL65 from San Diego International Airport (KSAN) to Tokyo Narita International Airport (RJAA) was taxiing for departure and was instructed to taxi via taxiways B, B8 and hold short of the runway at taxiway B8. But for some reasons the flight crew entered the runway via taxiway B10 without clearance. Meanwhile there was an aircraft on final approach flight DAL2287. The Tower air traffic controller instructed Delta 2287 to go around.
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I found the amended instructions confusing as well, mix that in with language difficulties and expectations and you have what could have been a deadly incident.
Once the controller said “Backtaxi” I can understand the JAL pilot’s even greater confusion since that is not a widely used term outside of the US. ATC should slow down, and use standard language when communicating with foreign carriers. I've seen there's a race amongst the ATC in US on who can speak the fastest.
Speedtalking in general is a problem, especially with the millenials.
@@analogman9697how tf are there always people who make it a generational problem
he had already illegally gone onto the runway way before the backtaxi command.
Even I got confused listening to all of that. So much for keeping it clear and concise
How is an airport with 1 runway making things so complicated
NGL I'm gonna side with the JAL pilot on this one. "Proceed onto" amendment after "hold short" really sounds like "proceed onto RUNWAY".
What the heck is "back taxi" anyway? I don't think they have that in Japan, only "backtrack" and this doesn't seem like the case here.
Those instructions were like doing the hokey pokey.
Flown into SAN many times. Its 1 runway. JAL pilots not understanding english well enough and ground controller changing instructions too many times. Never did the ground controller state what runway to taxi to. Glad my garmin avionics have the taxi map on the screen
I really do not understand that instruction ---- It starts with you can proceed onto Bravo and hold short of the runway at B9 and you can expect a back taxi. They acknowledge. Then even as they are at B9 it's Actually, just proceed onto bravo and hold short of Bravo 8. But they are already on Bravo at B9. So they suddenly changed the instruction right as they get to the original position. No wonder they were confused. Wouldn't a better instruction be hold current position at B9? Or maybe turn right on Bravo and taxi to short of B8? Very confusing air control.
They shouldn't keep changing the instructions constantly. It makes it seem like ATC doesn't know what they are doing. The pilot originally made a mistake but the ATC needs to get their act together and keep everything simple and in plain clear English.
After the initial mistake by the pilots, the tower switched into training mode. ATC kept on changing the instructions to make sure the pilots can keep up.
The ICAO term is back-track. In the US and only in the US the term back-taxi is used instead. When giving instructions to crews of international flights, it is wise to use ICAO terms. Pilots who fly to international destinations are not supposed to know the local idioms used in every country, which is why we have international standardization..
So, giving instructions talking like a machine gun, constantly changing instructions and using terms that controllers are fully aware that can cause confusion to the crew of an international flight, is not exactly stellar performance by the ATC. The JAL crew certainly made a mistake they shouldn't have. If you do not understand something, you stop where you are and ask for clarifications. You don't keep moving hoping for the best.
Unfortunately there map in the video is not labeled, and i am on a phone, so i won't google it, but i deduced that:
The taxiway B is the one on the south side of the runway
Taxiway C is from the north side
Intersections are numbered from east to west.
So basically he was supposed to hold on the first intersection (B9), later amended to B8 (one to the right, still on the same side of rwy)
Pilots have the diagram (if not, there is something srsly wrong in the procedures), they should know what is what.
What probably mislead them was the word "continue (to b8)"; if they were already perpendicular to the rwy, and not alithen with Bravo, they might have thought they are supposed to go "forward", instead of "further down Bravo"
I think I saw on a different channel that the Delta went around on its own before being told by tower.
The pilot's English capabilities seem terrible but come on, you have one runway and like what 5? taxiways, how often can you change your mind and amend the instructions? 🙄
This piolts English is better than some foreign pilots
@@brock83995this pilots English is better than some Americans I know 🤦♂️
@@TheHikingHoosier right!
To be fair I thought the instructions were a bit confused at the start, he gave them two sets of instructions and then amended it right after the other which I think caused the confusion. While the pilot did the wrong thing I actually can understand with the confused initial instructions plus English not being their first language how that could happen.
Controller never said CLEARED onto the runway for back taxi or otherwise she said "expect back taxi clearance"...It is a clear violation. And if the JAL was listening to the radio he would have heard tower clear DAL 2287 to land....Now did two sets of instructions confuse JAL? Probably....That does not change the facts of the taxi clearance? Not one bit
@@johnhanson9245 No but he did say proceed runway B to B8. The point I was making is that this came right after he told them to proceed to B9 and hold short then immediately said proceed B to B8. I can fully understand how they interpreted that as they were clearly to go onto the runway B, I think it was pretty unclear even as an English speaker. I do think the instructions should have been more explicit.
@@paulosullivan3472dafuk you talking about? Bravo is the taxiway not the runway. The only change was he could taxi on bravo to B9 then he changed it to B8. He was never allowed on the runway. The pilot likely mistook the runway for the taxiway and got lost.
@@matthewfindley5530 My point is the way he choose to convey the information was confusing. You strike me as the arrogant sort who thinks that if you understood something that this means everyone else irrespective of circumstance should. The reality is its unlikely the pilot mistook the runway for the taxiway, its much more likely that the followed the first instruction to taxi and hold short of the runway and then heard the proceed command and moved out to the runway. They were wrong to do so, but its an understandable mistake with the way the instructions were conveyed.
@@paulosullivan3472 you're the one that has no idea what they're talking about. You said runway B? That's not a thing. Further if the pilot was told to hold short at B9, and some how thought the next instructions was to some reason taxi down the runway to B8 which would be insane. He entered the runway a B10. He was lost.
Ahhh…the proverbial phone number. Great job on apart of the ground controller for being alert to possible deviation.
Never. Call. The. Number.
@@fletkri4981Certainly not in this instance!!!
Ground telling him to back taxi when landing plane coming in for 09... where's he going to back taxi to? I would guess the end of 09 and turn around for an easterly departure? But was that his depart runway originally? Why's he going down to 27? So much confusion...
Im new to all this, but what happens when they want you to call the tower on the phone? Do they just get yelled at?
It can lead to a lot, or not very little, my best part to your is look up some pilots on RUclips or some googling, it’s a lot to try and explain over text. Also with me not trucking knowing.
They just try to get them to purchase an extended car warranty.
@@VaporheadATC 🤣🤣😭
I still don't understand why radio is still the main tool for standardized information in commercial aviation?
Radio is good because you can exchange information at very short notice and ask questions directly. But radio also has significant weaknesses. For example, something can be misunderstood even though the words are the same as "proceed". This can potentially be confusing. The effort for the controllers is also higher. For example, once the aircraft movement has been planned, it must be communicated, the return confirmation must be confirmed and the execution must be continuously monitored. The planning of aircraft movements on the ground is shown on display boards anyway. Why are there no electronic text messages sent directly to the cockpit, which then show the expected movement on the pilot's display? Radio would then be reserved exclusively for very urgent cases and would make life easier for everyone and increase safety at the same time.
The planning can change because of emergency, weather etc. Having a radio is just better as it is instant communication
@@sofisofi-gx8teI'm sorry, that's BS. Having a radio *aswell* would allow emergencies to be covered, but having a simple cleared routing across the field via text/visuals would solve 90%+ of the ground issues we see.
wtf is wrong with the tower instructions????
I structions seem clear to me, I was even able to figure out the numbering from them.
Bravo is the taxiway on the south side of rwy, Charlie is on the north side.
Intersection Numbers go from 1 on the east side to higher numbers on the west side.
First instruction was to go on B and hold short on B9 (i.e. not crossing runway), the next instruction was to go to B8 instead of B9 (one intersection more to the east)
The pilot instead crossed the runway on B10...
@@panda4247you worked out the numbering because the controller gave instructions covering almost all of the taxiways at some point!
@@alan_davis yes. and I have the view from above on the video.. the pilots don't have that either...
BUT they have the charts to tell them what is what.
It would be one thing to confuse B10 with B9 for example; they might not be sure where exactly along the Bravo taxiway they are...
But at no point were they given the instruction to go to the runway or cross the runway (only in the later part after the incident, when they were instructed to go to Charlie).
I can't help but feel sympathetic with pilots (and controllers in other countries) who have to speak a non-native language for a job that is life-critical like this. That said, there's no alternative currently but to expect all pilots and controllers to speak fairly fluent English. It's evident that when the controller starts to ask the pilot questions in conversational english that the pilot is nowhere near fluent, though he at least speaks clearly.
When someone is not fluent, you need to speak at least half as slowly, as translating in one's head is very time consuming, and while you're translating, you'll probably start to lose understanding of subsequent speech. Unfortunately ATC doesn't have the time to do this at many airports with all the traffic. But still, taking twice a long with an instruction is better than repeating it 3 times...
Controller not have said 'Proceed'
Time to get ATC to the 21 century and use text messages via conputer management to avoid confusion. The ATC in this case was confusing himself.
How about just give CLEAR holding instructions and now back chatter. That would have probably eliminated the issue. Listening to ATC lately, there is too much unnecessary talk and chatter. I was taught to keep I instructions clear and brief. Nowadays, folks want to hold entire conversations on the radio which makes things confusing to say the least.
This was ATC,s fault😮
good controllers always speak slower to foreign pilots
Instructions were confusing but pilot did sound a little inebriated.
Speak slower and clearer. Use less words.
In retrospect the whole conversation can be "proceed on Bravo, hold short Bravo 8" - the other hundred words are just unnecessary noise.
What is going on with Japanese pilots lately? First the Japan coast guard crash a few months ago, and now this. Is it a language issue? Culture issue? Are the Japanese pilots exhausted from too many hours flying?
Nothing. A bit of recency bias in your mind, that's all.
He sounds wasted
That’s normally how they sound. Not to say that the crew had a late night on the town.
Controller, please speak SLOWLY to foreign pilots or even US pilots. Just assume that you are in Japanese territory and they speak in Japanese with the same speed. Could you guarantee that you can fully understand what they say? Some people argue that that's why English is the only language to communicate with in any airports, but that does not mean that all foreign pilots have to be that fluent as like you are. Moreover, it seems like controllers are bullying JAL65 by giving lots of instructions on taxiways. Controllers may insist that they wanted to be sure the pilot really understands what they say. Even if I accept the controllers' intention, that was too much.
ATC needs to copy tbe damn number!!! Up theirs!!👎👎👎
The big problem is ENGLISH should be made earth's official language so everybody can communicate clearly!
EARTH LANGUAGE
don't worry, even on startrek or star wars, aliens are speaking english....
Or PORTUGUESE. Let's see how you'd like that.
Why not Mandarin Chinese? There are more Chinese speakers. How about Spanish, since so many countries speak it? Oh yeah, because then YOU would have to be the one to learn another language.
I'm gonna go out on a limb and suggest that these pilots' English is more proficient than your Japanese.
@@327Erichfalse information- there may be more *_native_* Mandarian speakers, but overall there are more English speakers. Including this JAL pilot, whose English is fine if the ATC slows down and uses clearer language.
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