USAir Pilot Refuses Takeoff Instructions
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- Опубликовано: 26 авг 2023
- Decision making is one of the key things about what makes a pilot good or not, this pilot went against the instructions from the controller and the controller thought he was making a mistake.
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A take off clearance is never an order to take off. Hats off to these USAir pilots for using their discretion properly and declining to take off when they knew something wasn't right.
"A take off clearance is never an order to take off" As I said to my kid when I was teaching him to drive: "If you're at a stop sign, waiting and waiting for a chance to cross the intersection and finally the car behind you honks, that's not an offer to pay your deductible if you get into an accident".
This is why when my wife drives, I have to navigate
@@marcmcreynolds2827 I have a similar saying regarding being cut off or someone taking your priority at an intersection "You can be the guy in hospital saying 'I had the right of way', or you can just accept that someone cut you off and move on with your day."
The controller in Tenerife cleared a 747 for takeoff when they didn’t know where another 747 was on the ground either and we know the outcome of that 🫤
To be fair I've been the guy honking and a lot of people are waiting for some stupid shit like both lanes to be clear going right because they want to make a left turn a quarter mile down the road.
Pull into the right lane, then merge left. Get out of the damn way or take the bus.@@marcmcreynolds2827
The Captain of USair flight was Randy Tilly,a great pilot and friend. He received a safety award and recognition for his actions.
Very happy to hear that. Thank you for sharing.
And what about that female in the tower?
@@joejones4172she’s still in the tower waiting for a prince to save her 😂
Any information on the tower?
I am a former Piedmont USAir captain. I had this exact situation occur on the same runway. I also refused to take off. Fortunately, the runway was clear, but I didn’t know that so I held in position. I got chewed out by the FAA and my chief pilot. I stand by that decision to this day. The pilot in command is the pilot in command. We better act like it at all times. No regrets.
Good for you! IMO you made the right decision! As a passenger, I would most definitely have wanted you as my pilot!
That's interesting...is this specific runway particular in some sense like often full of fog or disorienting? Can not be only by chance that this is happening more than once
the fact they chewed you out is what causes accidents next time. as not everyone will refuse second time
Exactly! Insane that the FAA chewed you out! They should be happy you put safety first. Who is policing the police here! We need an organization to make the FAA do the right thing!
@@mellie4174 Agreed! What you said reminds me of a great episode of Star Trek The Generation: "Who Watches the Watchers?"!
I flew for US Air when this happened, It made the news. I'm a 737 Capt now at another airline. I never have forgotten this lesson. I listen to everything. Ipads are great, but no replacement for instinct and real situational awareness.
I hope all pilots are similar to you! Safety first, please. 👍
Thankfully our pilots are consummate professionals as demonstrated by this and many other errors where pilots were the final line of defense and did their jobs well. Many pilots are former military and I have absolute respect for them
So what Happened afterwards?
Technology makes us lazy, dependable, dumb and decreases our human competencies. In short, it makes the aviation industry less safe and pilots less autonomous.
Would you have made the same decision?
For all those wondering what happened after the final "OK" from the US Air pilots....the controller and United crew finally figured out where they actually were, and once the controller had them safely cleared and taxiing, the controller again cleared the US Air flight for takeoff. At which point the US Air crew refused AGAIN, saying: "We'd like to have United at a gate." See this excerpt describing the incident from a 1999 Washington Post article (starting from the first moments of the incident):
The United crew realized something was wrong and called the tower but reported an incorrect location, apparently believing they were on Cross-Runway 16, clear of the active runway. At about that point, the FedEx cargo plane flew directly overhead. One source close to the investigation said it is possible that the roar of the FedEx engines drowned out the transmission saying the United crew was on a runway.
"Somebody just took off," an increasingly concerned United pilot told the tower. It is unclear whether the FedEx or United crew saw the other plane through the fog, or if the controller realized the closeness of the encounter.
The controller then began quizzing the United pilots. At least four times the United crew reported their position as Runway 23 Right at Runway 16. In truth they were at Runway 23 Left at Runway 16, directly in the path of the US Airways plane, but out of sight 4,000 feet down the runway.
Apparently satisfied that the United plane was out of the way, the controller gave the US Airways plane clearance to take off. The US Airways crew, having listened to the radio conversation between the controller and the United crew, refused.
A source who interviewed both pilots extensively said they held back because of the "tone of uncertainty" in the United pilots' voices. Both pilots said they immediately rejected any idea of takeoff, the source said, with the captain telling the co-pilot, "No, don't take that," just as the co-pilot said, "I don't want to do that."
"Where's United?" the crew asked the controller. The controller assured them that United was clear, the US Airways crew told an investigator. The crew told the investigator that the controller grew frustrated, telling them again that the United plane was out of the way, but the US Airways crew was adamant.
Again, the controller began quizzing the United crew about their location. It was then that the United crew determined their true location. Once the plane was safely taxiing toward the terminal, the controller told the US Airways crew to taxi onto the active runway and prepare for departure.
Again, the US Airways crew refused, saying, "We'd like to have United at a gate."
US Airways declined to name its crew or to discuss the details of the event.
👏Thank you for sharing! I'm sure the US Airways crew are happy to remain unnamed but never unthanked!
I wonder if there were any reprimands or mandatory training for the controller or did they just brush it aside
Any word on what happened to the controller? She could have killed a lot of people with her horrible attitude.
@@kennythewolf The problem almost certainly doesn't end at that controller though.
When your airport has to be a for profit business, there's a lot of pressure on the controllers to keep things moving. ATC being overworked isn't a new problem.
Sure, maybe an exceptionally good controller would have immediately noticed the issue, but if your system requires exceptional people to function, you have a shitty system.
Thank you for sharing this
If there's no visibility and no "technology" to pinpoint where everyone is, how the hell does the controller make the assumption that "they're not anywhere near the runway"? The pilot who decided to hold clearly had a working brain.
Haven’t watched the whole thing, but if anyone’s afraid of this, know today there are collision avoidance systems on the ground to prevent this from ever happening again.
there's a comment below that says the United pilots actually gave her the wrong location several times. She would have assumed they were clear based on that information.
@@MsJubjubbird zero visibility, zero assumptions.
Well said!!
Yeah and if Ms. Smartiepants had her brain working, AND LISTENING then she might have figured out that U1448 was short of 16 and must have taken a wrong turn between the runways. The Pilot told her a plane just took off over them indicating where they were.
This particular incident was covered every year during my airline career recurrent training. It is a cautionary tale about numerous people making mistakes and a smaller number demonstrating good judgment.
Not true.
Do we know each other? Were we in Recurrent Ground together?@@mackwiz1
*Its ALSO about a phenomenon called PERCEPTUAL SET*
Whereby someone believes their understanding is so and never challenges their assumption
Its what that controller did. And it could have had lethal consequences.
When something feels 'wrong' *If you're P1 or P2 always be prepared to 'recalibrate' what you think the picture is*
@@mackwiz1 Prove it
@@Crazy_Dashcam_Videos : How might one disprove a negative position?
The pilot should have given that ATC a phone number to call. 😂
No doubt!
😂😂
No need. They can call the tower after they park. They shouldn't be answering phone calls while they're taxiing anyway.
@j_taylor it was a joke as normally its ATC giving pilots a number to call if they mess up
😂😂
As a retired controller, I can say this has never happened at the places I worked, some very fog prone, but the standard reply to such a situation
was " All aircraft on tower frequency hold your present position. Due to visibility, we need to account for all traffic. Stand by".
So why was this controller so arrogant. Her arrogance would have killed 100s of people that night if the pilots of both planes were not confident in following their gut feeling
I agree completely. @@GreenPassportStories
@@GreenPassportStoriesTenerife?
@@tyrotrainer765 Tenerife was sadly a case of one of the pilots being in a hurry to get out of the whole chaos that the airport became. Sadly (and with the benefit of hindsight), he’d had been better off in that chaos than the one his decision and actions would cause. SMH.
@@GreenPassportStories Yep the KLM captain screwed up big time.
That was 22 years after the Tenerife accident, I can't believe the controller didn't learn a lesson from that
NicksStuff I'm old enough to remember tenerife accident from 1977. Such a tragic accident, so many lives lost. It could have been a preventable accident. So many if's 1. If pan am was able to do a hold rather than landing at previous airport, since that airport was closed due to terroists bomb in terminal. All planes were directed to los rodas, a regional airport that was ill equipped no ground radar, weather was unpredictable, fog rolling in off the mountain. 2. If tower at los rodas had denied the Klm to refuel. Since they had enough fuel to go back to previous airport. 3. Klm took off w/o a takeoff clearance, they were given only a route clearance. 4. Klm captain during the investigation, realizing that he had not done an actual flight for many months, training pilots in a stimulator environment; not actual in flight, not dealing with ATC. 5. If the captain had listen to his flight engineer, in reference to his request and or question is the pan am off the runway. 6. Unfortunately impatience did play a role, the weather had worsen, if they had waited 5 - 10 minutes the weather had very much improved in reference to visibility.
You think that it happening 22 years later means they didn’t learn a lesson? Humans are fallable
Man I love all the comments of former and current pilots who take this scenario and lesson to heart. You all constantly live up to rigorous standards and it makes an enthusiast and passenger like myself have complete confidence in the air crews I encounter. You guys are simply awesome!
The jaw-dropping moment for me is when she says, "You shouldn't be anywhere near Kilo" -- She's _so close_ to recognizing the gravity of the situation, but she still misses the point.
"Shouldn't" being the key word there... that's dangerous territory for that controller. Theory is nice and all, but reality is what actually matters and can get people killed. That should have been a massive wake-up to the controller to reevaluate the situation immediately.
Controller should have called for a complete ground halt , sorted out their situation before resuming !
So they're clearly lost, admit they're clueless, stating being on an active runway, and she acts like nothing could be wrong. It seems to me she should have a job as a grocery bagger where she can't kill a lot of innocent people.
Yeah, that's approaching "Why are there mountain goats?" territory.
Yes but we are.
The pilot was a true hero. To not just fall into the trap of following "orders" from others takes a lot of strength.
both sets I'd say. United for stopping and trying to figure out where they were instead of blundering along, and yes, USAir for their "that's a negative on take off"
It doesn't take that much strength. You just don't do things you think are wrong. If more people would do this things would be far better than they are.
It take strength. See the book 'Obedience To Authority' by Milgram.
Many US pilots are ex military. They are taught to think on their feet.
No the pilot was not a hero. He was a true professional, he did his job, and he did it well.
9:15 my university professor touched on this same topic by explaining the “5 LEVELS OF COMPETENCE”
1 - unconscious incompetence - where you are oblivious to how much you don’t know
2 - conscious incompetence - you’re still not capable, but are aware of how little you actually know
3 - conscious competence - with focus, you can achieve your task
4 - unconscious competence (the ideal) - where you’ve gotten good enough at something it’s almost second nature
5 - unconscious INDIFFERENCE (the dangerous) - where you’ve gotten so routine at things you start to exhibit a lack of care and don’t think about things properly.
That the other pilots declined to takeoff til issue resolved and we’re paying attention is a prime example of this :)
That's a pretty neat scale - I might borrow it sometime in my teaching (as a graduate TA). Granted, I teach a literature course, so I might not have a good opportunity to insert it into the class anytime soon.
@@chesscomsupport8689 go right ahead, when/if it ever comes up, would love to hear how it went over :)
Watching this video absolutely sent shivers down my spine. There are several memories I have as a kid that even today are as fresh in my mind as if they were yesterday. One of those is the Tenerife Airport Disaster in '77. I may only have been 8 at the time but I vividly remember the news reports coming through and also subsequently read up on what happened. Hearing Kelsey describe this incident showed some of the similarities and who knows what would have happened if those pilots hadn't simply stopped and exercised some patience and caution!
My aunt and uncle died in that crash. I was about the same age and remember staying up all night watching news reports with my family. They were scrolling survivor names.
My understanding is that the Tenerife disaster was a result of the captain of one plane being very dominating, to the extent that while several in the crew knew it was not ok to enter the runway, they were unwilling to speak up.
As a result, the emphasis has been changed, so all crew members are expected to speak up if they feel anything is not right.
@@rickcollins2814 That was a large part of the cause for sure, but the foggy weather and lack of situational awareness was another. In this instance, it was the ATC who was being (or trying to be) domination as well as having lost that crucial situational awareness. I wonder if this had happened in the 70's what the result would have been regarding the pilots not backing down to the ATC.
@@rickcollins2814 Yes, KLM's chief 747 flight instructor and chief pilot (yes, they still had that title back then) Jacob Veldhuyzen Van Zanten was the captain who took off without a clearance despite repeated queries from his first officer (Klaas Meurs), and the fact that they knew another aircraft was back-taxiing and struggling to find the correct exit to allow him to rejoin. That other aircraft was actually the first 747 to be delivered to an airline - Pan Am - and had made the first commercial 747 flight. Even during the takeoff roll, when the Pan Am aircraft (Clipper 1736) was instructed by ATC to report when the runway is clear, and had replied "OK, we will report when we're clear" and Van Zanten's Flight Engineer (Willem Scheuder) had given a further warning, Van Zanten continued, and killed himself along with 582 others, including all on his aircraft and most on Clipper 1736 (which had 61 survivors out of 396 on board.
Van Zanten was the last of the old-school training captains who held that the 1st officer was there to learn to be a captain and the flight engineer was someone who failed flying school, but only the captain's opinion mattered, and he was always right. He himself provided the perfect reasoning for the end of that school of thought and the introduction of Crew Resource Management through the industry (KLM were the last hold-out in Europe, IIRC, and that was very much Van Zanten's responsibility.
KLM delayed any comment on the collision for several hours trying to get the opinion of their Chief Pilot, before realised he was the captain involved.
They eventually accepted full responsibility for the collision (after a lengthy fight though - they even issued their own version of the accident investigation).
I was glued to the news as it came out, particularly as my grandparents had just returned from a holiday in Tenerife.
Many changes came about, not just to the way aircrew work together. Radio calls were made much tighter and specific words were prohibited except in the very specific circumstance which called for them - takeoff being the first and most obvious. You may say you are ready (or not) for departure, but NEVER for takeoff.
@@Michelle-xm6no That must've been tough - 61 names (eventually), hoping and praying that more would be added out of 644.
I worked as a baggege handler for 19years with USAIR/ USAIRWAYS. Best job and Co-workers anyone could wish for. Miss it everyday!!! Proud to see our Pilots made a great call...❤
I can say one thing, if I had a pilot insist he was on a runway, I think I’d want to pause and rethink my own blind assumptions.
Props to the pilots for sticking to their professionalism. Their extreme show of character saved lives and gives example for everyone in their field.
I am a retired airline pilot. (B727, DC-10, B747)...we were shown this video years ago as part of our recurrent training. I have always held this Captain/crew in HIGHEST REGARD as they were being PRESSURED by ATC to vacate/expedite....(we heard the ATC transmissions). Sully did a great job...but in my opinion..this took tremendous integrity. Well done fellow airmen and others please LEARN from this...most of the time it wouldn't matter..but this time it did. Many lives saved.
W O W! What a career call! Props to those US Air pilots. 300 people had no idea they were going to die that night. Had those pilots in both planes not made the choices and communications they did
My brother is a pilot and instructor for a large airline company, he has said that pilots need to be taught that it’s ok to say ‘unable’ when they feel unsafe about a clearance or instruction that ATC has given. This is a perfect example. The US Air pilots were unable to take off due to safety concerns.
Yes absolutely, and I know a lot of people get mad at delays etc at the airports but if you just stop to think about it a pilot holding off takeoff or aborting landing to circle around could potentially save hundreds of lives. I'd gladly chill on a taxi way awhile if it means we actually get to take off in one piece.
Agreed on not doing what controller said, but its not unable, its is Will Not. You should never forget as a pilot, you hold the ultimate decision. Controller clearly has lost control of the situation and has zero situational awareness. Kudo to both aircraft pilots for putting a halt to things.
Flip is I was once told to do an immediate 360 to the left (approach) and did so. The tower knew where I was and could see situation I could not, so I did. My decision was based on tower had been tracking my reported positions and had awareness I did not have.
@@gregoryschmitz2131 "Will not" is not in the PCG. Is it a non-US thing? Where do you fly?
FAR 91.3 is the reg that gives the PIC the final authority. Every ATP/Commercial pilot already knows this, and should be very situation aware as this Captain was.
@@gregoryschmitz2131 Absolutely not. "Will not" is not proper phraseology and could easily be misunderstood over the radio as "will now" or some other variation. The proper phrase to use is "unable."
Shockingly unbelievable that the United crew told the controller that they were on an actove runway and her response was effectively, "No, you're not!" without having visual or any other confirmation of where the United was. In a system where aircraft position is determined by reporting, to tell a crew they are not where they report they are is beyond comprehension.
I guess the controller thought they were on the runway that was used as a taxiway. Hence, yes on a runway, but not on an active runway...
@@AHBdV I think it was the part where the pilot said "we just heard traffic go over" that she should have been listening to.
@@Plisko1, 'sounds to me like the controller is on one HUGE power trip and her ego won't allow any other information to change her mind. Thankfully the USAir pilots had their heads on straight and refused to listen to her rants.
@@richardcline1337 I'm not sure if power trip is the right description. I pictured her being in some sort of deep focus with all the traffic management and she was so busy trying to move things along that she forgot to listen for signs of confusion in the fog. It's not a good look in either case.
'Ego' on regrettable display.
My late father RCAF and Airline pilot in the 1950’s and 1960’s often spoke about always maintaining good situational awareness. Particularly when flying, but also driving your car, even walking on a sidewalk! He was RCMP in late 1940’s before becoming a pilot. That mantra of having good situational awareness has served me well in my 62 years as a non-pilot. I would say it’s the most important skill a pilot requires. Kudos on the video. 👍
I love how unbothered by the controller the US Air crew sounds. "Nope, we're not doing it, and we do not give a flying flip if you don't like it."
More people need to be like those pilots.
It depends on the situation. Stockton Rush, being a case in point.
@Smithpolly Sure. But imagine if the launch team for STS-51-L had the guts to tell the politicians, "No, we're not launching today. It's too cold and the SRBs won't seal properly. We don't care about your threats or that the State of The Union is tonight, this is too reckless and you're eventually going to kill some astronauts if we keep launching in the cold."
Because remember, they knew about the o-ring issue from other cold-weather flights.
@@vicroc4 As I said , it depends on the situation.
He probably had sisters and recognized the problem.
@@alanmacification LOL. 😂😂 LUV It..
ROTFL. Yeh, I had a sister and a Mum that were never wrong.
I am really shocked at the ATC's attitude. If I had been any of those pilots I would have filed a formal complaint. The lost craft repeatedly tried to tell the tower they were lost and the ATC repeatedly belittled the pilot because she knew better. With her piss poor attitude & total disregard for the lives of hundreds she should not be in that position, ever. Kudos to the professional, humble & insightful pilots in all the craft.
Agree. If I was the USAir pilot, I would have been tempted to reply to the takeoff clearance with "Ah Tower, possible controller deviation. I have a number for you to call. Advise ready to copy."
Edit clarification.
After a little googling.
After hearing the confusion of UAL, US Air declined takeoff clearance until it was reported that UAL had reached the terminal.
Pilots of UAL were sent for additional training.
ATC wasn’t officially faulted but sent for remedial training before returning to duty.
FedEx declined the TO clearance? Or USAir? If FedEx declined, who was it that took off while the United was holding short of (or on) 23L?
@@David-yh4wz sorry cleared it up. It was a FedEx that basically took off over UAL. USAir stayed put until confirmed that UAL had reached the terminal.
FedEx took off. USAir declined and held short. I had to listen twice to understand that.
Thanks for the rest of this information. I was really curious how it all ended up working out...
Hopefully, the remedial training included actually listening to, what the pilots were telling her, and also never giving takeoff clearances, when another plane tells her, they are right at the active runway, and that 1 plane has already taken off right in front of them. No matter how certain she thinks, she is, she has to listen to those out there.
⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ This is one of the BEST episodes you've made, 74 Gear!!! 👍 The Flight Crew on USAir 2998 are HEROES. No matter what the outcome could have been, they maintain situational awareness and refuses the TO clearance. This is the GOLD STANDARD for all Flight Crews, regardless of 10-9 sheets or electronic solutions. Situational Awareness is just as important for Flight Safety today, as it was back then when this incident occurred. The United Crew also did a good job by simply stopping and reporting when reality clashed with their mental models. They could have fallen into the Confirmation Bias Trap such as the one which lead to tragedy on Linate Airport, Milan, Italy, in October of 2001 with 118 fatalities and 4 injuries.
Incredible analysis, mate. You're absolutely right on all points.
For the controller to say "They are nowhere near the runway" was a terrible call and I hope she was given remedial training. My response would have been "Can you see them?"
If the team in the cockpit aren't positive where they are, it's irresponsible for an ATC Officer to suggest they know where they are in minimal IMC.
I had not heard this story - thanks mate!
Remedial training?
Firing's what's needed here.
This person was definitely in the wrong job.
As the saying goes (and for a good reason,): there's no fixing stupid.
Being older, I am now way more pragmatic on following ATC instructions. They are generally correct. But before acting I now literally ask myself, “Am i willing to bet my life on that?”. It forces me to double and TRIPLE check my situation and the positions/movement of others before potentially moving into harm’s way.
Checks and balances because “it’s yours to lose.”
Yes, apparently those pilots weren't willing to bet their life on the ATC being right.
@@CieloNotturno86 Good call.
You can almost hear the pilot mumbling, “I hate it when i’m right.”
@@baomao7243 in the meantime, the other pilots start to be very worried that another plane will crash into them
...and their passengers lives...
I love the way the USAir pilot lowkey backed up the United pilots and simultaneously told the controller without coming out and saying "you need to deal with this" told her to deal with it.
ATC should’ve been fired. Incompetence mixed with arrogance is a dangerous thing.
That's what DEI means
I think retrained, at minimum. An even tone is important. Impatience is not the state of mind you want to be in controlling traffic.
@@colephelps6202 Retraining is not possible. If a ATC can not figure these things out themselves, no retraining will work either. She has to go.
@@amezitroll3670 It wasn't called that in '99 , but you're right.
What a phenomenal breakdown about putting safety over expedience. I really like that you highlighted this situation because it is something that gets heavily over looked and under valued in many industries.
I work around heavy equipment and have had many instances where being patient and cautious when dealing with a multi-faceted situation potentially prevented an accident. Safety and people are more important than any piece of equipment or saving a couple minutes of time.
I don't understand how the controller can say both that she cannot see anything from the tower AND that she is completely certain they are not near a runway at the same time. How can she possible confirm this? If she's relying on the pilots calling to her to tell her where they are, why is she not listening to them when they are telling her where they are? Does she not think the pilots have to deal with the weather too? That they couldn't have possibly made a mistake and ended up in the wrong spot? Like, what the hell was she even thinking? Terrible professionalism on her part.
The problem is that you're using logic and reason and the controller is a woman. 😊
@@toddsmith8608, back in your hole, troll.
@@tamhiker1of course not, just that women make more
@@TheTuttle99 So what do you want to do about it, buddy?
@@TheTuttle99 source?
I was flying a 767 at the time and can really relate to paper charts and taxiing, especially at night in rain. At certain airports, ORD and JFK come to mind, taxiing was the most intense and difficult part of the flight. London had the best system. You simply followed the taxi way centre line lights that were programmed by the ground controller. "You are cleared to gate (..), follow the lights."
Why is that not standard everywhere. Would make our lives so much easier
@@sklewbecause then the airports would have to spend money and their executives don’t want to miss their Christmas bonuses
There is also a lot of underutilized aerospace talent and industry in the UK.. in the US it would take 10 years and five government contracts just to come up with the detailed development plan
In Italy it would take 25 years!@@enginerdy
@@sklew
Might help a lot of if done right. Been collisions from not be operated correctly and/or not actually marking correctly. Which is crazy.
Bravo to the USAirways pilots for standing firm 👏
Msrocker961 absolutely, if I not mistaken, this happen in a Rhode island airport providence. They had been experiencing bad weather, poor visibility due to fog banks. The tower did not know where the planes were. How could the tower controller tell a plane be cleared for takeoff, when there was a craft lost, went onto an active runway, due to making a wrong turn. So glad the US air was tuned into frequency, made correct decision not to take off, not once but twice. Well done !!
This guy’s stories are EPIC.
Every one of them.
Back when I was training for my instrument rating, flying a Cessna Cardinal RG, it was a day with Santa Ana winds in Southern California (winds blowing out of the desert, so opposite of usual, blowing from the ocean). A lot of the local airports were using runways opposite of normal, so it was a good opportunity to practice shooting unusual approaches. One of them was the localizer back course at Santa Ana (John Wayne Int'l), which is both a GA and commercial airport, the approach is largely over the Catalina Channel (essentially the ocean). So we were approaching from the north, I was wearing an IFR hood, my instructor was visual, looking for traffic. As we were nearing the turn onto the LOC back course, listening in on the approach frequency, we became aware that a commercial jet was also approaching their turn onto the localizer back course from the South. Based on the distances given to the intercept by the controller of both my plane and theirs, our likely speeds, and that the jet was going to be first, my judgement was that I was going to intercept just behind the jet, and be in their wake (and remember since it's a LOC BC, it's a step down approach, with no vertical guidance, and with the winds blowing, the wake would carry into me with less drop). Instead of accepting the instruction to intercept, I asked for permission to do essentially a 270 for spacing. The controller gave attitude but said "approved" and that's what we did. We DID feel turbulence passing through the LOC BC, whether that was the jet's wake or not, I don't know. After we were established on the inbound track, my instructor said to me "I'm impressed you did that, because I could SEE where the jet was and I was going to say something if you didn't."
On the ground in the run up area we discussed situational awareness, the fact that neither of us wanted an upset out over the channel at night (did I mention it was the evening?), and that the controller was likely unaccustomed to the reverse approaches as well. How many times do pilots make choices that might save lives? We weren't going to collide, I'm certain, but my small airplane being flipped upside down by wake turbulence wouldn't have ended well. It was not the first time I would've been slotted in behind a heavier aircraft in Southern California, and I know well that the first thing is that you smell the barbeque (the burnt jet fuel exhaust) a fraction before you get the wake.
Situational awareness is everything.
I was in the pattern in Cessna 150 at Class D airport. The controller asked to me extend my downwind and that he would call my base. From all the radio traffic, I could tell this was to accommodate a jet (kind of get out of the way or get run over situation). What made me laugh is when the controller called my base, he started to explain why he extended the downwind. I laughed to myself, "Yeah, I know. I heard." I guess he forgot we all can hear everything.
I would say situational comprehension, with wiser decisions, is everything.
Love those cardinal RGs. Beautiful airplane. ❤
There are no noise restrictions on departures when they are in that pattern.
You can hear in tower controller’s voice that she is completely unsuited for that job. I remember this incident at the time. The USAIr pilots were awarded an airmanship award by ALPA. I don’t remember what happened to the tower controller by but I believe she ended up continuing to work in ATC. It’s been my experience that controllers in the USA are fantastic. She is an exception to that experience.
Sounds like confirmation bias. She was dead certain about the situation yet knowing she couldn't see anything. USAir heard that United didn't know. United knew they didn't know. USair knew United didn't know. But tower, oh she knows for sure! The limit on how many "not knowings" going around is enough to do absolutely nothing at that point. A great showing why a sterile cockpit seems like a really great idea
Ding ding ding Correct. I am thinking tossing the wrong burger out a window never killed anybody.
Yes....she just barrelled ahead regardless of the doubt, and very irritated, forecefully urged the US Air to take off. Almost like in the R. Wagner Flying Dutchman opera about the reason for his 7 year curse was he attempted to do a travel maneuver against logic, and his bullheadedness propelled him to make the ill advised maneuver (around the Cape of Good Hope.) He said: "come hell or high water I'm going to do this...." Astonishingly, the KLM pilot that decided to take off in the fog at Tenerife because he was tired of waiting so long (he wasn't cleared for takeoff) was nicknamed The Flying Dutchman. Well, the other 747 was still on the runway, and couldn't be seen due to fog, so......both 747s hit head on. When the other taxing plane saw the KLM barreling down on them on takeoff, he yelled "What's he doing ??? We're still on the runway......he'll kill us all ! " So many similarities to the current video here....fog....being lost, impatience, bullheadedness, etc...
I am obsessed with accident analysis, this is my favorite so far ! The accident that never was. So many great nuggets. People make the difference, those checks and balances :)
The United 1448 / ATC communication was one of the primary examples we had when we brought Crew Resource Management training to my IT teams in Germany. This was great CRM and communication by the US Air crew.
One of the most important skills that a pilot can have is knowing when Not to fly. Cheers to these guys. 🍻
This incident was really even worse than how Kelsey showed it. After the refusal of the first take off clearance, the tower cleared US Air to take off again! They once again had to refuse it and insist that the United flight be parked at their gate before they would move. It took a bunch of back and forth between the united flight and ATC to figure out where they were and it became clear how they were in fact in the way.
Holy shit. That's arguably a criminal level of negligence when hundreds of lives are at stake.
I need the rest of this audio. Want to hear how the communication sounded till they resolved everything.
I am really shocked at the ATC's attitude. If I had been any of those pilots I would have filed a formal complaint. The lost craft repeatedly tried to tell the tower they were lost and the ATC repeatedly belittled the pilot because she knew better. With her piss poor attitude & total disregard for the lives of hundreds she should not be in that position, ever.
Did she get fired?
@@JtexyRetrained
I used this foul up as an example in airport operations when I taught ground school. Important to the incident was the old taxiway layout. If you look at the layout at 3:13, that's the new layout. The old layout had a V shaped split at what's label HS3; one branch crossed 16/34 and the other crossed 5R/23L. The United plane was on the one that crossed 5R with it's nose over the runway.
It finished up the United plane taxied across the active and made 2 lefts onto 16/34.
BTW, after re-training, this controller was transferred to approach control. After paling this video 40 times, I recognized her voice.
Well, she IS Union so there's no way, short of an act of God Himself, that anyone could really do anything to her. One of the worst ego trips I've ever heard anyone be on!
Well yeah, she couldn't possibly cause a severe accident from approach control.
Did her attitude improve because she comes off as someone who shouldn't be relied upon to keep lives safe.
A Good Judge , along with a good Prosecutor might have resulted in a Cell approach And landing for the Negligent Tower controller.
After reading many of the comments, i am astonished that she was not either Prosecuted And Or Fired.
The Pilot's + Passenger's along with THEIR AIRCRAFT were Saved by Professional Pilot's + The Grace Of GOD.
As I mentioned in my Original Comment, i Believe, that the Pilot's had a Legal Duty to Report this Event to The FAA And to The Airport Management.
The Pilot's were correct to return to a gate to Report to their Management, who would assist The Pilot's in Reporting the Event in Accordance with the Rules + Proper Safety Follow Up with The FAA + The Airport Management.
When i wrote my Original Comment, i had not yet read the comments of any other Commentator's.
It Appears from the Intelligent Replying Commentator's, that we are in Agreement.
Every Life is IMPORTANT. These Pilot's as well as Saving their Passenger's Lives + All Pilot's + Crew...these intelligent Pilot's possibly also Saved that Tower Controller Life that Night... The Guilt that would result after being Responsible for the lost of Human Lives would cause the Tower Controller to suffer serious Consequences. Traffic Controllers suffer a large number of people who burn out or controllers who drink too much Alcohol...rendering the Controller unfit for the job as Controller.
The Tower Controller on Duty on the recording was clearly Negligent. Frankly, i would not willingly fly into any Airport in fog conditions, if i knew she was on Duty.
It is my belief, if ALL The Affected Pilot's made The Report's to the FAA + The Airport Management, then she would be removed. That is the purpose of making Complaint's to The FAA + to The Airport Management. Then, after Official Investigation, and, after listening to the Audio Recording's from The AIRCRAFT + the Audio Recording's from the Tower, appropriate Decision's would result. Safety for AIRCRAFT, Passenger's + Crew including each of the Pilot's is the reason for Review's, FAA Investigation's, And, for Official Pilot's Formal Incidents Report's.
The Fact that if the Controller was incompetent, Then that person should not remain a Tower Controller!
Yes, I Am An International Lawyer. Yes, i Believe, that the controller was unfit to be in such a responsible position of Tower Controller.
Your website was the very first and only website I have ever subscribed to. Thank you for your presentation.
I remember when this happened. It was my first few months flying for US. The captain of 2998 was the first captain I flew with on the -200 after OE. He is AWESOME.
Yeah he’s awesome and still alive!
12:47 "...Despite the controller making it sound like THEY were the crazy ones."
This applies in so many facets of life. Always do what you feel is right regardless of how others try to make you feel.
Hopefully that controller learned a valuable lesson, realized it's possible for her to be wrong sometimes, and got her ego in check.
A bit of a confession: I was working with a regulator (on the phone) and getting frustrated with the "idiot". He was also getting frustrated with the other "idiot" (me). We finally had a good laugh when we figured out the confusion. I was, as an example, saying "engine" when I meant "gas tank"; therefore, he thought the equipment had two engines and thus would have different requirements. If it had two gas tanks, there's be no change. Prior to that call, ALL of our interactions had been tense. Afterwards, we got along great.
@@gingerhiser7312 Ha! I had a similar interaction once. I was at home and answered the phone. It was a guy from UPS or FedEx. He kept asking for an "appointment number" to make a delivery, and I didn't know what he was talking about. He kept getting more and more frustrated, until I eventually put the pieces together - my parents lived on a street called "Mountain Shadow", and there was also an apartment complex in town called the Mountain Shadow apartments. He thought it was going to the apartments, and he was asking for an apartment number.
Perfectly stated
Easier said than done
This is so true my husband had a very bad infection and his doctor kept saying he was fine and by the time he got to the hospital ER his blood pressure was 50/30 at Mayo Hospital and his surgeon at Mayo never apologized for kept saying that nothing was wrong. He is alive because I didn’t listen to the doctor and took him to the hospital
A horrible situation for everyone involved to have experienced (including the air traffic controller). From what I presume, three things emerged from this:
1. Nobody got hurt.
2. Many got to hear about it, and therefore it was able to provide a valuable lesson.
3. This event scenario can now be used time and time again to train and teach others involved in aircraft movement and aircraft management operations.
Thanks for this video and the commentary. It is really appreciated.
Hey, Kelsey! Thank you so much for all that you share. It is fascinating, and most appreciated! ✈️
It should be remembered that, in 1991, a USAir flight landed on a Skywest flight that was still on the active runway at LAX killing 23. It was due to ATC error.
after the pilot told the controller they were at an active runway and the controller told them it wasn't one, I would have been sorely tempted to make a mental note to give the controller a number to call when the situation was sorted out. that or simply say, "well, then an airplane just took off from your taxiway."
The pilots lied. When they asked for permission to cross November they were not at November, they were just making stuff up. How is the controller supposed to know
@@VanquishedAgainYep, found the ATC🤣
@@VanquishedAgain "Lied" is defined by the Merriam-Webster online dictionary to mean "to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive."
However, the United pilots did not attempt to deceive anyone. They were confused about their position and they informed the controller of this.
@@VanquishedAgainthey didn't lie. Bad use of the word. The pilots were lost and confused. They reported a position they thought to be accurate but it wasn't.
@@VanquishedAgainYou keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means.
"Again, the US Airways crew refused, saying, "We'd like to have United at a gate." The ending of the story was not covered in the video but I like to imagine this as the pilots way of telling the controller "You were wrong once, you almost got us all killed, and now you will sit there and wait until you know." It is about the most perfect professional smackdown I can imagine.
By the way, the USAir pilots did sit there until the UNITED Captain got on the radio and told them that she had parked the aircraft at the gate. She had also been listening to the other conversation and understood their position.
This has an interesting feel of a hybrid between one of your usual videos and a Mentour Pilot video. And I mean that as the highest compliment. You both have your own unique styles and this video felt like a combination of both of them but in a very good way. 👍
One of my earliest instructors in the 1970’s taught me to always be aware of what tower is asking you to do rather than just repeating what they say, because it could save your life! This incident is a perfect example of that lesson… exemplified by the US Air crew.
Your reply is incredibly ambiguous.
Amen, I was cleared for a left downwind at SAT 13L which I acknowledged. Next call from Twr was to turn right base from a left downwind. I reminded him I was on a left downwind and rejected the right downwind. Had a good conversation with him after I landed. Situational awareness and sterile cockpits are linked!
Such a smart move to question EVERYTHING. There is nothing equal to "IFR" when taxiing. Planes have a stopping distance similar to trains rather than vehicles once they build momentum so if their path wasn't guaranteed clear, they did an amazing job.
As a junior pilot I had an incident where another aircraft had a severe language barrier. The tower would say to do something and they read it back sort of right, but then did something totally different. This happened several times in a row and it got really scary. The rest of us up there literally had no idea what that aircraft would do next and so all of us (we were in the pattern to land) contacted tower and asked to peel off on dowwind, crosswind, even base. It was chaotic but we all feviated slightly to help the controller clear his airspace to handle a really bad situation.
We were all listening to everything, not just the traffic that pertained to our individual aircraft. That pilot got a deviation and the rest of us got a heartfelt thank you from the tower that day.
It cost me about 15 minutes (plenty of fuel, hours left) but nobody died.
Life is good when everybody pitches in to help out!
Keep that wonderful attitude that you and the controller are on the same team!
I love your channel. Very informative, very carefully put together videos and most importantly, you give us commentating as a real life pilot.
I appreciate your reminders to the audience that the information we are seeing on our screens are nothing like what they were "seeing" during the incident. Putting yourself into the shoes of the controller, the lost pilots or the US Air team holding short is itself a useful skill to appreciate how simple things can go wrong in the moment, even when they seem obvious in retrospect.
I fly out of PVD. That controller sounds like the cranky one we have there. Last week she was clearance delivery and ground. I called for clearance. No reply after about 30 seconds. No traffic on the radio. I called again. She replied " Sorry you are impatient and couldn't wait 30 seconds." My CFI and I were shocked ( I am IFR Training).
Just reply with "We're going to give you a number to call." That should shut her up 😃
I haven’t had a run in with her but I’ve heard her get snippy with others before. Lucky to fly out of there since they’re one of the few places with an DME Arc approach.
The funniest exchange I’ve ever caught was just north of there in OWD. A pilot said “thank you ma’am” after picking up his craft… well clearance, ground, and tower were all being run by the same person… who is very much a man. I was dying laughing when he asked for his taxi / take off clearances each time only to be met with the same controller who was clearly annoyed. 😂😂😂😂
Keep it totally professional. When you hear her voice, turn on the "USAir 2998 pilots keeping their cool" mode. If you fly out of PVD frequently, you want the ATC to be thinking, "wow, that pilot makes my job easier."
@@someguyontheinternet7165would it be funnier if he said “thank you man” and just mispronounce and/or heard wrong due to radio
I doubt she is still there. If you have a problem with a controller ask them for their operating Initials and a time hack and tell them to tell their supervisor to secure the recording. Then ask for a phone number for the facility and file a complaint.
They showed great sense in standing firm in their beliefs.... and saved a lot of lives in the process.
One of the best "Lessons Learned" events of all time regarding situational awareness, clear radio communication and professionalism. Good vid, good share, great channel!
Ignoring the lessons learned from Tenerife is astonishing. Thanks for the vid Kelsey
Actually I feel that this was a step forward from Tenerife. Instead of just taking off without clearance, the pilots at the end of the runway decided not to take off, even though they did have clearance. But in Tenerife the ATC knew the Pan Am people were lost and were trying to help.
Kelsey, I love how you tackled this story! I know you've been talking about how you'd like to vary the content you produce, but it occurs to me that you are well-suited to do historical event-based videos, similar to what Petter does in Mentour Pilot. Plus, you add a unique pilot perspective to it, and in your own self-deprecating way, you compare the situations to what you personally have been through and how you've learned from it. Just great work on this, and if possible, I'd love to see more videos like this. Good job, man!
actually Kelseys stories complement the stories of Petter. Kelsey gives us ATC communication and his view (and admitting he made a lot of these mistakes himself), while Petters videos are derived from accident reports.
For an flight enthusiast like me, who is not a pilot, both are very interesting and educational. Two of my favorite channels!
The difference is Kelsey's videos aren't just entertaining or history but instructional. Every video is to teach others to be better pilots
@@stofflsSure, I agree with you; I never meant to imply that their content is identical, only that doing commentary on historical incidents was something both creators do very well, in their own style.
Women...
Good vid and well explained to those who aren't in the business. I'm a 19 yr 121 guy, and I love the situational awareness with GPS that the ipad now affords us. But I never rely on it, I still listen on the frequency to everything going around me just like I did in my flight instructing days all those years ago. Keeping track of other instructors on the practice area frequency: where they were, what they were doing and what altitude they were at doing manouvers at was airmanship well learned, and still retained and used.
One thing I learned while Paragliding was the concept of Airmanship. And that good Airmanship is not only about technical skills but also situational awareness and decision making. And that the decision not to fly is also part of good Airmanship.
As a controller, you do develop a sense when somethings not right. This controller ignored the warning signs... a pilot saying they're not where they think they should be. Thankfully the USAir pilot picked up on it and did the right thing and waited.
As a passenger who watches and listens, I can't believe what controllers are expected to be able to do, or how they can keep doing their jobs without suffering extreme burnout before the end of each shift. Set them up for success, and they do the heavy lifting well.
A single, huge, word to compliment that crew's attitude: Airmanship.
An excellent commentary on what can go wrong.. Situational awareness, while driving, boating, flying , critical to personal safety and everything that is within our sphere of conscientious liability.
Excellent summary and story of the USAir Pilot's refusal to takeoff!! Keep up to the good work. I really enjoy your stories.
It annoys me that the ATC keeps making the point that she can’t see so why on earth was she not listening and taking the pilots seriously? Doesn’t seem clever on her behalf and hope that she apologised afterwards
@gantmj what does your comment even mean in regards to the original comment?
Hubris. What's clear to me here is the ATC is supremely and dangerously overconfident. She knows the airport, probably been working there for years, and that contributes to a person feeling like they can't be wrong. Obviously that's a super dangerous attitude for an ATC to have that can't see through the fog.
Reminds me of back-up cameras on cars. ... Soon nobody will know how to reverse a car without them.
Good video. 👍
I see plenty of people who cannot back up WITH the cameras!
i do have a back-up camera, but I feel more comfortable with the mirror. I am so used to seeing a mirrored image, and the camera feed is not mirrored :)
you use both...create a scan, side mirror, back up camera, side mirror. Using both creates more situational awareness than one or the other.
It's great for precision parking tho. Seeing curbs and crap. Angry sign post also, just waiting to smack the car to pieces which they tend to do for some reason because some angry municipal employee places them at the exact wrong spot to spite drivers
"What I do know is, that controller was immediately fired." - I wish that's what he said there at the end.
As a former US Airways Flight Attendant (Airbus A330) I was always very impressed by the maturity and professionalism of our pilots.
Flew on plenty USAirways A330-200s on the MAN-PHL route. Great crews and really professional feel to the whole operation. Really miss flying them.
@@herrkaliyuga thanks for the compliment. I was a German Language interpreter for US 782/781 PIT-FRA
@@vincentmeadows1 Leider sprechen immer noch viel zu wenig Leute in Deutschland Englisch... :/ I feel kinda lucky being rather comfortable with it.
@@katho8472 where are you from?
@@vincentmeadows1 Originally somewhere between BRE and HAM, now living near DTM, or an hour north of CGN
This only worked out because everyone was on the same frequency and speaking the same language. That so often isn't the case, which could easily lead to disaster. If the lost aircraft had been on a ground frequency or had been speaking a local language, the other pilots would have had no idea.
Thats the scary bit right
I'm not a commercial pilot, but I'm fairly sure that all aircrew and ATC use English regardless of where they operate in the world.
@@pauldarlington5589 No, they don't. They are required to be able to use English, but they don't always do so. Local pilots will often speak the local language.
@@pauldarlington5589 Paul yes correct a universal requirement but not a legal one or by regs. Local language is favoured in non-english countries (and overall is safer) but dialect / poor English enunciation is the v biggest problem in the room. Freighting into smaller non-english airports can be a real challenge at times.
Long ago the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) made English the standard civil aviation language. "ICAO requires that language skills of pilots and controllers rated at Level 4 are reassessed every three years, Level 5 pilots and controllers - every six years, while at Level 6, no further assessment of English language skills is deemed necessary."
I was repositioning a CRJ900 and was told I could cross the active runway. I looked up and saw a planes landing lights on final approach. I told the controller that I couldn’t go due to the landing aircraft. She nearly had a heart attack and told me to hold position. When I got to the terminal she asked me to call her cell phone. She fell all over herself apologizing. Scary night for me.
Likely massive fatality situation avoided. Top marks to the pilots.
As someone who flew in the 90's, I look back fondly on the old charts, as much as they were a pain to open and follow at times, but I agree with you 74, the level of situational awareness then was much higher than it is today. The technology now is incredible and immensely helpful, but we seemed to have lost something along the way.
That's what engineers said when they stopped using the slide rule !! Those guys NEVER got the decimal point in the wrong place. As an accountant myself I remember old-timers who could add up a column of figures in a ledger faster than anyone today using a calculator.
@patrickcorliss8878 yeah back then experienced pilots like Jacob Veldhuyzen van Zanten would never make mistakes!
@@mipmipmipmipmip Interesting comment. Van Zenten was born in 1927 and got his private pilot's licence in 1947 ehen he was 20. That was the year that I was born. The Tenerife air disaster was in 1977 when he was 50 years old and had been flying for 30 years. As I was born in 1947 and was 30 years old he had been flying all of my life. He was a highly-skilled pilot with no record of errors that I can see. As I know from over 50 years of driving experience mistakes can happen. The book "Judgment Calls: Making Good Decisions in Difficult Situations" by John C. Mowen provides some interesting examples of human error. One was the shooting down of the Iranian civilian aircraft by the United States.
ATC - it's real easy to be smug when you're sitting safe and sound in an office chair, knowing no matter what happens, you get to go home at the end of the day.
I’d prefer to be dead on the crash rather than in jail for a small mistake caused the accident
Yet, if there's a disaster, you could be responsible for killing hundreds of people.
I don't understand the cognitive dissonance of "I can't see anything from the tower" to being 100% certain "they're nowhere near the runway." It's not a big deal to stop all departures and arrivals if you can articulate a reasonable safety concern like an airplane lost in the fog on the ground.
I cannot imagine being responsible for the deaths of hundreds of people because I was momentarily impatient or frustrated.
I don't think I could face another human after something like that.
@@cursivejay apparently the pilots gave her the wrong location several times- one that was clear of the active runway.
You have to remember that back in '99, there was no social media. Such recordings were not sought after. I'm sure if we actually went to the archives we could find quite a few instances like this where ATC acted like complete bags of garbage.
Likewise, you will find instances where pilots were unprofessional. They didn't have good CRM back then either.
False, MySpace and Facebook both existed as well as IRC, multiple IMs, message boards, and forums. Saying social media didn't exist in 1999 is blatantly false and you likely weren't even born then or still in diapers. Facebook was a DARPA program called Lifelog which coincidently stopped the same day "Facebook" was official but the web site was invite only for 4-5 years until the name change.
You are right that there was no social media. You are very wrong that "such recordings were not sought after."
@@akronyay oh yeah? How so? This should be interesting. 😏
@@longfade If I want anything from you, I'll ask you for some bad fashion tips.
We added ground radar installations to a few large airports and was amazed at the engineering put into the designs and what construction was needed for these installations. Most times the runways were shut down that we worked near but once in a blue moon an aircraft would land near us. Distances are deceiving.
That controller better have been fired… I can’t believe she cleared a take off knowing there’s a plane on an unknown active runway …. Absolutely INSANE
She cleared it because she thought the other plane was on 23R (10:34), which was inactive, as opposed to 5R, which is was active and where they were actually positioned. I don't defend her attitude of letting slide an aircraft that cannot be verified of its position, but at the same time if 23R happened to also be active, I bet she wouldn't be so dismissive.
The pilots told her clearly where they were. She said “You are not supposed to be there”. She should have lost her job.@@HarmonicaMustang
DEI hire.😢
Discretion is the better part of valor. Everyday heroes just might be the people who know that what they don’t know, could kill them. Well done.
Prudence as I like to say
And all those riding behind them.
As a controller who works at a busy airport it’s nothing to call a follow me truck.
I wondered from the moment that 1448 said they were confused why the tower didn't send a truck out to find them and escort them in.
Heck, I feel like even a pushback tug to tow to the gate would've been good.
@@stevedietrich8936 If United didn't know where they were and the tower didn't know where they were, how would the truck know where to find them.
@@CaptainKevin Drive around all the taxiways with flashlights looking for a plane. No one is allowed to depart or land until they find the missing plane. But if the truck gets lost then they’re all screwed.
ehhh... tower. follow me truck here, we are at an active runway... we are lost.. send somebody
I just love the contents of your video, you’re right and I thank you for doing this videos and many more, it’s very informative and I personally appreciate!🎉❤😅
Cudos to the pilot Who held his ground! Thanks to live updates air safety is getting so much better in real time!
I was in my early teens when my Mom was a CFI and FAA designated examiner. One of the first women. She gave me the task of changing the pages in her Jeppsson manuals when the stack of new pages came in. At the time i didn’t know the differences but later when she flew me through 100 % ifr towards a landing at minimums at then one runway Orange County Airport that i realized the importance. I think that was the most concentrated i have ever seen a human being then or to this day 60ish years later. Never scared, just focused 100% plus on situational awareness thanks Mom for everything!!!!
The thing controllers hate hearing from pilots "pull the tapes."
It's basically the same as the controller saying "I have a number for you to copy, please advise when ready."
Thank you for your videos. VERY informative and superbly explained. Thanks a million !
Another thing to note here is because it wasn't so busy Ground and Tower (local) were on a combined frequency so that's also why USAir 2998 heard the issue with United. I'm not sure if airline crews monitor multiple frequencies or not but that might help out for future crews as well.
I remember situations like this from flying with my Dad in our Cessna 182. He had a commercial license and was instrument rated, but he didn't fly professionally. I used to help him update his Jeppsen manuals and navigate around new airports, so I know how easy it is to get turned around. I think the biggest lesson he taught me is that the pilot in command is in charge. This is a perfect example of Dad's wisdom.
The pilot in command and the copilot are in charge. In a healthy cockpit, they both are in charge.
@@Thundersnowy Negative! The PILOT is called Pilot in command. He and he (she) alone is in charge of the airplane!
I don't think it is my "elderly sentimental memory" but there is, in modern generations, a general laxness in diligence and accuracy in every occupation, not just aviation.
I tested for a data entry job when I was in my early 20s. You had to be fast and accurate, and my accuracy was 97% so I didn't pass. I've seen such inaccuracies in this area that I'm sure they no longer have this requirement.
The required test to become a mail carrier used to be terribly stringent, but based on our neighborhood's "redivery rate" I'd guess it isn't anywhere near as stringent.
You see this relaxed attitude just in automobile traffic. People running red lights, rear ending cars from inattention, etc.
People just aren't generally situationally aware as much, and too impatient to be careful and accurate.
Think about the aerospace industry in the 1960s and all those calculations done BY HAND! We never would have made it to the moon with today's standard of accuracy.
@@MikeM275 The "Pilots" are both the pilot monitoring and the pilot flying
@@Freezorgium ?? Not sure your point here. Yes they are both pilots. But only ONE pilot is PIC (Pilot in command) of an airplane. Not both as was incorrectly stated above.
Awesome example of situational awareness. My father was an Air Force pilot and I can’t tell you how many times we would talk about this concept. Part of dads school of life! Just made my kids watch this. Thank you!
⁷
A perfect example of the opposite of pilot error. I've read a lot of comments from pilots regarding this and similar situations. Thank you to all of you who responded and handled the situation just as these pilots did. Also hats off to the United pilots who continued to make contact with ATC, We all make mistakes but loss of life doesnt have to be the result.
Thank you for sharing this. The PanAm/KLM disaster at Tenerife in the 1970s was caused by fog and a taxiing plane on an active runway and some communication problems between ATC and the pilots. We salute the USAir pilots for their prudence which avoided another disaster.
You're being too generous to the KLM captain.
I personally don't like to point fingers of blame on these videos because I view them as learning opportunities to broaden my understanding and perspective regarding various aviation scenarios. In this case, I feel both the Untied and US Air flight crews did an exceptional job of communicating with the tower while holding their respective positions which prevented what could have been a very catastrophic accident. Kelsey, your interpretation of the comms from a pilots viewpoint are priceless!!
If you want to learn from this you are going to have to look at who's to blame or am I missing something? Pointing fingers is a good thing to do. You want to be a liberal and be nice to everyone doesn't work. People need to be told what they do wrong in many situations. Yes the truth might hurt. But the more it stings the more it sticks 😉 This is not a playground.
It was so important for United to say, I’m on an active runway, regardless of how dumb being there sounded or was!
Great call by the US Air pilot and for staying so situationally aware. This is a perfect example of why sterile cockpit is important even during taxi.
I was flying back then, and those paper airport diagrams required extreme attention at some airports like that one even during the day and in good weather. At night and in poor weather, you just see a maze of taxiway and runway lights that can be confusing. The United acft was far from the first to make a mistake like that.
Might be my favorite video from you. Actually I listen to a lot of YT while driving so first audio only even more so. Came back for the visual. Keep these coming!
Nice video 74 Gear! Great content and love all the comments it prompted!
As a retired controller I can say this is shown to every new controller that comes in the building of my last place. I didn’t work at providence but I worked with someone that was working in that tower at the time.
They cover this incident in Tower class at the FAA Academy. The video replay and charts used there show the UAL plane well over the hold short line and possibly even nosing into the runway. It's amazing how arrogant and aggressive the ATC gets when she can't see anything. And, as is customary, she is now a safety representative or manager of some kind. I guess it ultimately humbled her massively when she went back and saw the full picture.
I remember that training and came here to give this exact comment. If I remember the training correctly, it was really only dumb sheer luck that the FedEx missed them (because airborne), and a solid possibility that the USAir wouldn't have.
That means that one ATC controller got suspended for a few days. If the ATC can't see the planes, what the heck then giving them clearance to take off?? Absolute Bravo to the pilots for just standing still till everything gets worked out.
@@alanwalker4520 ATC always will give takeoff clearances in ultra-low visibility, when they can't see the runways. Fog can't shut down the whole system. The problem was this controller was WAAAAY too confident that the plane was not where they said they were, which is really arrogant of her to just assume the pilots were wrong.
"I guess it ultimately humbled her massively . . . "
That's the part I was waiting to hear, some kind of humility or realization to occur. The video really left us hanging.
Doubtful. Too many women can't admit when they're wrong (not even to themselves), and I've seen (and experienced) too many of them for whom power absolutely went to their heads.
Not that men can't be the same way, but almost nobody is surprised by that. We don't expect women to be that way, but I've seen it in the military, in private industry, and especially in the public sector.
I love the way you explain these things stay safe sir
I like it when the controllers actually act like controllers. A few years ago a friend of mine rescued a rotting DC-3 in Quebec. And when they finally were ready for the celebration flight it was an ATC circus. To make matters worse half the pilots spoke English and half spoke French and that poor lady in the tower was talking at 200 knots while all these little birds were clucking about wanting clearance. Finally she laid down the law in both official languages. Essentially told them to sit down and shut up and wait. And the line I loved the most at the end was -- with strong emphasis --"DO NOT CALL BACK." And then the old Douglas took to the sky for the first time in decades. ✈️
My BiL was in the cockpit of that US Air flight that decided to hold. Both pilots got recognized by the FAA at some banquet.
Thank you for the information. It is good to know that the FAA rewards good and safe practices.