I am a former Piedmont USAir captain. I had this exact situation occur on the same runway. I also refused to take off. Fortunately, the runway was clear, but I didn’t know that so I held in position. I got chewed out by the FAA and my chief pilot. I stand by that decision to this day. The pilot in command is the pilot in command. We better act like it at all times. No regrets.
That's interesting...is this specific runway particular in some sense like often full of fog or disorienting? Can not be only by chance that this is happening more than once
Exactly! Insane that the FAA chewed you out! They should be happy you put safety first. Who is policing the police here! We need an organization to make the FAA do the right thing!
A take off clearance is never an order to take off. Hats off to these USAir pilots for using their discretion properly and declining to take off when they knew something wasn't right.
"A take off clearance is never an order to take off" As I said to my kid when I was teaching him to drive: "If you're at a stop sign, waiting and waiting for a chance to cross the intersection and finally the car behind you honks, that's not an offer to pay your deductible if you get into an accident".
@@marcmcreynolds2827 I have a similar saying regarding being cut off or someone taking your priority at an intersection "You can be the guy in hospital saying 'I had the right of way', or you can just accept that someone cut you off and move on with your day."
The controller in Tenerife cleared a 747 for takeoff when they didn’t know where another 747 was on the ground either and we know the outcome of that 🫤
To be fair I've been the guy honking and a lot of people are waiting for some stupid shit like both lanes to be clear going right because they want to make a left turn a quarter mile down the road. Pull into the right lane, then merge left. Get out of the damn way or take the bus.@@marcmcreynolds2827
For all those wondering what happened after the final "OK" from the US Air pilots....the controller and United crew finally figured out where they actually were, and once the controller had them safely cleared and taxiing, the controller again cleared the US Air flight for takeoff. At which point the US Air crew refused AGAIN, saying: "We'd like to have United at a gate." See this excerpt describing the incident from a 1999 Washington Post article (starting from the first moments of the incident): The United crew realized something was wrong and called the tower but reported an incorrect location, apparently believing they were on Cross-Runway 16, clear of the active runway. At about that point, the FedEx cargo plane flew directly overhead. One source close to the investigation said it is possible that the roar of the FedEx engines drowned out the transmission saying the United crew was on a runway. "Somebody just took off," an increasingly concerned United pilot told the tower. It is unclear whether the FedEx or United crew saw the other plane through the fog, or if the controller realized the closeness of the encounter. The controller then began quizzing the United pilots. At least four times the United crew reported their position as Runway 23 Right at Runway 16. In truth they were at Runway 23 Left at Runway 16, directly in the path of the US Airways plane, but out of sight 4,000 feet down the runway. Apparently satisfied that the United plane was out of the way, the controller gave the US Airways plane clearance to take off. The US Airways crew, having listened to the radio conversation between the controller and the United crew, refused. A source who interviewed both pilots extensively said they held back because of the "tone of uncertainty" in the United pilots' voices. Both pilots said they immediately rejected any idea of takeoff, the source said, with the captain telling the co-pilot, "No, don't take that," just as the co-pilot said, "I don't want to do that." "Where's United?" the crew asked the controller. The controller assured them that United was clear, the US Airways crew told an investigator. The crew told the investigator that the controller grew frustrated, telling them again that the United plane was out of the way, but the US Airways crew was adamant. Again, the controller began quizzing the United crew about their location. It was then that the United crew determined their true location. Once the plane was safely taxiing toward the terminal, the controller told the US Airways crew to taxi onto the active runway and prepare for departure. Again, the US Airways crew refused, saying, "We'd like to have United at a gate." US Airways declined to name its crew or to discuss the details of the event.
@@kennythewolf The problem almost certainly doesn't end at that controller though. When your airport has to be a for profit business, there's a lot of pressure on the controllers to keep things moving. ATC being overworked isn't a new problem. Sure, maybe an exceptionally good controller would have immediately noticed the issue, but if your system requires exceptional people to function, you have a shitty system.
As a retired controller, I can say this has never happened at the places I worked, some very fog prone, but the standard reply to such a situation was " All aircraft on tower frequency hold your present position. Due to visibility, we need to account for all traffic. Stand by".
So why was this controller so arrogant. Her arrogance would have killed 100s of people that night if the pilots of both planes were not confident in following their gut feeling
@@tyrotrainer765 Tenerife was sadly a case of one of the pilots being in a hurry to get out of the whole chaos that the airport became. Sadly (and with the benefit of hindsight), he’d had been better off in that chaos than the one his decision and actions would cause. SMH.
I am a retired airline pilot. (B727, DC-10, B747)...we were shown this video years ago as part of our recurrent training. I have always held this Captain/crew in HIGHEST REGARD as they were being PRESSURED by ATC to vacate/expedite....(we heard the ATC transmissions). Sully did a great job...but in my opinion..this took tremendous integrity. Well done fellow airmen and others please LEARN from this...most of the time it wouldn't matter..but this time it did. Many lives saved.
Not an airline pilot, but a GA one. Wasnt sure if my pitot was working, so asked for a high speed taxi down the runway. It was working, so asked to exit and taxi back. Tower told me I can turn around and go back to the end of the runway or "take it from where I was". I replied with "no, I'd like to taxi back". As I did, they pushed me even more with "I need you to expedite take off, there are arrivals behind you!!" My gut feeling was to say "unable, I'm exiting the runway and will go when ready", but I gave in and got rushed to take off. Had a really poor climb performance - barely 200ft/min. Climbed and flew the plane (in IMC nonetheless), and a few mins later, doing the climb checklist figured my mixture was leaned for taxi and stayed that way (!). Learning lesson: never get pushed by ATC. I'd rather call the number than accept a clearance when I'm not ready or when my gut feeling says dont. As for "taking it from where I was" - thats how people have ended up in NTSB reports and air safety institute videos. Glad I said no.
@@Asdayasman the 10 was a magnificent airplane, particularly the powerful DC 10-30 which had incredible lift overweight ratio.. it had very thick glass windshield which made it quiet for long haul, which is what we did… And the seats were incredibly comfortable… I flew some of the early 747 and it was a pig.
If there's no visibility and no "technology" to pinpoint where everyone is, how the hell does the controller make the assumption that "they're not anywhere near the runway"? The pilot who decided to hold clearly had a working brain.
Haven’t watched the whole thing, but if anyone’s afraid of this, know today there are collision avoidance systems on the ground to prevent this from ever happening again.
there's a comment below that says the United pilots actually gave her the wrong location several times. She would have assumed they were clear based on that information.
Yeah and if Ms. Smartiepants had her brain working, AND LISTENING then she might have figured out that U1448 was short of 16 and must have taken a wrong turn between the runways. The Pilot told her a plane just took off over them indicating where they were.
I flew for US Air when this happened, I was 25 years old. It made the news. I'm a 737 Capt now at another airline and more than double the age. I have never forgotten this lesson. I listen to everything. Ipads are great, but no replacement for instinct and real situational awareness. Expectation Bias is a force to be reckoned with. It can happen to anyone. (Obviously with ATC Too) When in doubt, set the brake and hit the mike.
Thankfully our pilots are consummate professionals as demonstrated by this and many other errors where pilots were the final line of defense and did their jobs well. Many pilots are former military and I have absolute respect for them
Technology makes us lazy, dependable, dumb and decreases our human competencies. In short, it makes the aviation industry less safe and pilots less autonomous.
I’m a commercial pilot myself and I thank God for the US Airways pilots in this situation! Their situational awareness in this incident more than likely saved hundreds of lives! I am grateful for them and their determination to choose safety first!!
Edit clarification. After a little googling. After hearing the confusion of UAL, US Air declined takeoff clearance until it was reported that UAL had reached the terminal. Pilots of UAL were sent for additional training. ATC wasn’t officially faulted but sent for remedial training before returning to duty.
@@David-yh4wz sorry cleared it up. It was a FedEx that basically took off over UAL. USAir stayed put until confirmed that UAL had reached the terminal.
Hopefully, the remedial training included actually listening to, what the pilots were telling her, and also never giving takeoff clearances, when another plane tells her, they are right at the active runway, and that 1 plane has already taken off right in front of them. No matter how certain she thinks, she is, she has to listen to those out there.
ATC 35 years. I was working at another Tower in New England when this event happened. I have never been so embarrassed by the conduct of a fellow 'professional'. Even now, 20+ years after the event, hearing this transcript again still makes my blood boil. The silver lining is that PVD was moved up on the priority list to get the ASDE-X ground radar. The bottom line is that it takes the active participation of air traffic control AND pilots to keep the system safe. Kudos to those USAir pilots!
The jaw-dropping moment for me is when she says, "You shouldn't be anywhere near Kilo" -- She's _so close_ to recognizing the gravity of the situation, but she still misses the point.
"Shouldn't" being the key word there... that's dangerous territory for that controller. Theory is nice and all, but reality is what actually matters and can get people killed. That should have been a massive wake-up to the controller to reevaluate the situation immediately.
So they're clearly lost, admit they're clueless, stating being on an active runway, and she acts like nothing could be wrong. It seems to me she should have a job as a grocery bagger where she can't kill a lot of innocent people.
both sets I'd say. United for stopping and trying to figure out where they were instead of blundering along, and yes, USAir for their "that's a negative on take off"
It doesn't take that much strength. You just don't do things you think are wrong. If more people would do this things would be far better than they are.
Man I love all the comments of former and current pilots who take this scenario and lesson to heart. You all constantly live up to rigorous standards and it makes an enthusiast and passenger like myself have complete confidence in the air crews I encounter. You guys are simply awesome!
I am really shocked at the ATC's attitude. If I had been any of those pilots I would have filed a formal complaint. The lost craft repeatedly tried to tell the tower they were lost and the ATC repeatedly belittled the pilot because she knew better. With her piss poor attitude & total disregard for the lives of hundreds she should not be in that position, ever. Kudos to the professional, humble & insightful pilots in all the craft.
Agree. If I was the USAir pilot, I would have been tempted to reply to the takeoff clearance with "Ah Tower, possible controller deviation. I have a number for you to call. Advise ready to copy."
United: "We're lost, we think we're on a runway." Her attitude: "I don't know where you are, but you're not at that point." US Air: "We're not moving until we know exactly where they are." FAA needs to have a word with the controller.
NicksStuff I'm old enough to remember tenerife accident from 1977. Such a tragic accident, so many lives lost. It could have been a preventable accident. So many if's 1. If pan am was able to do a hold rather than landing at previous airport, since that airport was closed due to terroists bomb in terminal. All planes were directed to los rodas, a regional airport that was ill equipped no ground radar, weather was unpredictable, fog rolling in off the mountain. 2. If tower at los rodas had denied the Klm to refuel. Since they had enough fuel to go back to previous airport. 3. Klm took off w/o a takeoff clearance, they were given only a route clearance. 4. Klm captain during the investigation, realizing that he had not done an actual flight for many months, training pilots in a stimulator environment; not actual in flight, not dealing with ATC. 5. If the captain had listen to his flight engineer, in reference to his request and or question is the pan am off the runway. 6. Unfortunately impatience did play a role, the weather had worsen, if they had waited 5 - 10 minutes the weather had very much improved in reference to visibility.
Well, good thing the pilots in both planes did. I don't understand how atc can hear a pilot say they don't know if they are on an active runway, and just assume they aren't despite no ground radar or visual.
Too much time in between. Pushes critical incidents out of memory for some and others who are now adults weren't paying attention - they were busy being kids. I was 40 when 9/11 occurred. It will always be burned into my brain. I remember every detail of the entire day vividly. Unfortunately, too many others don't. My kids were 8 and 6 at the time. We mostly shielded them from it because as parents we don't wanna see our kids traumatized, but at a certain point they need to know. Anyone signing up to be in ATC should be taught about past incidents as part of their training along with how many souls were lost (if any) to emphasize the criticality of what they do.
My brother is a pilot and instructor for a large airline company, he has said that pilots need to be taught that it’s ok to say ‘unable’ when they feel unsafe about a clearance or instruction that ATC has given. This is a perfect example. The US Air pilots were unable to take off due to safety concerns.
Yes absolutely, and I know a lot of people get mad at delays etc at the airports but if you just stop to think about it a pilot holding off takeoff or aborting landing to circle around could potentially save hundreds of lives. I'd gladly chill on a taxi way awhile if it means we actually get to take off in one piece.
Agreed on not doing what controller said, but its not unable, its is Will Not. You should never forget as a pilot, you hold the ultimate decision. Controller clearly has lost control of the situation and has zero situational awareness. Kudo to both aircraft pilots for putting a halt to things. Flip is I was once told to do an immediate 360 to the left (approach) and did so. The tower knew where I was and could see situation I could not, so I did. My decision was based on tower had been tracking my reported positions and had awareness I did not have.
FAR 91.3 is the reg that gives the PIC the final authority. Every ATP/Commercial pilot already knows this, and should be very situation aware as this Captain was.
@@gregoryschmitz2131 Absolutely not. "Will not" is not proper phraseology and could easily be misunderstood over the radio as "will now" or some other variation. The proper phrase to use is "unable."
I don't understand how the controller can say both that she cannot see anything from the tower AND that she is completely certain they are not near a runway at the same time. How can she possible confirm this? If she's relying on the pilots calling to her to tell her where they are, why is she not listening to them when they are telling her where they are? Does she not think the pilots have to deal with the weather too? That they couldn't have possibly made a mistake and ended up in the wrong spot? Like, what the hell was she even thinking? Terrible professionalism on her part.
Shockingly unbelievable that the United crew told the controller that they were on an actove runway and her response was effectively, "No, you're not!" without having visual or any other confirmation of where the United was. In a system where aircraft position is determined by reporting, to tell a crew they are not where they report they are is beyond comprehension.
@@Plisko1, 'sounds to me like the controller is on one HUGE power trip and her ego won't allow any other information to change her mind. Thankfully the USAir pilots had their heads on straight and refused to listen to her rants.
@@richardcline1337 I'm not sure if power trip is the right description. I pictured her being in some sort of deep focus with all the traffic management and she was so busy trying to move things along that she forgot to listen for signs of confusion in the fog. It's not a good look in either case.
I love the way the USAir pilot lowkey backed up the United pilots and simultaneously told the controller without coming out and saying "you need to deal with this" told her to deal with it.
Being older, I am now way more pragmatic on following ATC instructions. They are generally correct. But before acting I now literally ask myself, “Am i willing to bet my life on that?”. It forces me to double and TRIPLE check my situation and the positions/movement of others before potentially moving into harm’s way. Checks and balances because “it’s yours to lose.”
I was flying a 767 at the time and can really relate to paper charts and taxiing, especially at night in rain. At certain airports, ORD and JFK come to mind, taxiing was the most intense and difficult part of the flight. London had the best system. You simply followed the taxi way centre line lights that were programmed by the ground controller. "You are cleared to gate (..), follow the lights."
There is also a lot of underutilized aerospace talent and industry in the UK.. in the US it would take 10 years and five government contracts just to come up with the detailed development plan
⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ This is one of the BEST episodes you've made, 74 Gear!!! 👍 The Flight Crew on USAir 2998 are HEROES. No matter what the outcome could have been, they maintain situational awareness and refuses the TO clearance. This is the GOLD STANDARD for all Flight Crews, regardless of 10-9 sheets or electronic solutions. Situational Awareness is just as important for Flight Safety today, as it was back then when this incident occurred. The United Crew also did a good job by simply stopping and reporting when reality clashed with their mental models. They could have fallen into the Confirmation Bias Trap such as the one which lead to tragedy on Linate Airport, Milan, Italy, in October of 2001 with 118 fatalities and 4 injuries.
12:47 "...Despite the controller making it sound like THEY were the crazy ones." This applies in so many facets of life. Always do what you feel is right regardless of how others try to make you feel. Hopefully that controller learned a valuable lesson, realized it's possible for her to be wrong sometimes, and got her ego in check.
A bit of a confession: I was working with a regulator (on the phone) and getting frustrated with the "idiot". He was also getting frustrated with the other "idiot" (me). We finally had a good laugh when we figured out the confusion. I was, as an example, saying "engine" when I meant "gas tank"; therefore, he thought the equipment had two engines and thus would have different requirements. If it had two gas tanks, there's be no change. Prior to that call, ALL of our interactions had been tense. Afterwards, we got along great.
@@gingerhiser7312 Ha! I had a similar interaction once. I was at home and answered the phone. It was a guy from UPS or FedEx. He kept asking for an "appointment number" to make a delivery, and I didn't know what he was talking about. He kept getting more and more frustrated, until I eventually put the pieces together - my parents lived on a street called "Mountain Shadow", and there was also an apartment complex in town called the Mountain Shadow apartments. He thought it was going to the apartments, and he was asking for an apartment number.
This is so true my husband had a very bad infection and his doctor kept saying he was fine and by the time he got to the hospital ER his blood pressure was 50/30 at Mayo Hospital and his surgeon at Mayo never apologized for kept saying that nothing was wrong. He is alive because I didn’t listen to the doctor and took him to the hospital
My late father RCAF and Airline pilot in the 1950’s and 1960’s often spoke about always maintaining good situational awareness. Particularly when flying, but also driving your car, even walking on a sidewalk! He was RCMP in late 1940’s before becoming a pilot. That mantra of having good situational awareness has served me well in my 62 years as a non-pilot. I would say it’s the most important skill a pilot requires. Kudos on the video. 👍
I agree 100% with your dad! Situational awareness is needed by everyone, every day, to stay safe. I bet he would hate to see how most people have zero situational awareness in the 'modern' age of 2024 when I'm writing this. Eyes on a screen 24/7. (I know, I watched this on a screen, but I was sitting in a chair in my home, not driving, walking down a sidewalk, not flying plane, not riding a horse, etc.)
Back when I was training for my instrument rating, flying a Cessna Cardinal RG, it was a day with Santa Ana winds in Southern California (winds blowing out of the desert, so opposite of usual, blowing from the ocean). A lot of the local airports were using runways opposite of normal, so it was a good opportunity to practice shooting unusual approaches. One of them was the localizer back course at Santa Ana (John Wayne Int'l), which is both a GA and commercial airport, the approach is largely over the Catalina Channel (essentially the ocean). So we were approaching from the north, I was wearing an IFR hood, my instructor was visual, looking for traffic. As we were nearing the turn onto the LOC back course, listening in on the approach frequency, we became aware that a commercial jet was also approaching their turn onto the localizer back course from the South. Based on the distances given to the intercept by the controller of both my plane and theirs, our likely speeds, and that the jet was going to be first, my judgement was that I was going to intercept just behind the jet, and be in their wake (and remember since it's a LOC BC, it's a step down approach, with no vertical guidance, and with the winds blowing, the wake would carry into me with less drop). Instead of accepting the instruction to intercept, I asked for permission to do essentially a 270 for spacing. The controller gave attitude but said "approved" and that's what we did. We DID feel turbulence passing through the LOC BC, whether that was the jet's wake or not, I don't know. After we were established on the inbound track, my instructor said to me "I'm impressed you did that, because I could SEE where the jet was and I was going to say something if you didn't." On the ground in the run up area we discussed situational awareness, the fact that neither of us wanted an upset out over the channel at night (did I mention it was the evening?), and that the controller was likely unaccustomed to the reverse approaches as well. How many times do pilots make choices that might save lives? We weren't going to collide, I'm certain, but my small airplane being flipped upside down by wake turbulence wouldn't have ended well. It was not the first time I would've been slotted in behind a heavier aircraft in Southern California, and I know well that the first thing is that you smell the barbeque (the burnt jet fuel exhaust) a fraction before you get the wake. Situational awareness is everything.
I was in the pattern in Cessna 150 at Class D airport. The controller asked to me extend my downwind and that he would call my base. From all the radio traffic, I could tell this was to accommodate a jet (kind of get out of the way or get run over situation). What made me laugh is when the controller called my base, he started to explain why he extended the downwind. I laughed to myself, "Yeah, I know. I heard." I guess he forgot we all can hear everything.
This incident was really even worse than how Kelsey showed it. After the refusal of the first take off clearance, the tower cleared US Air to take off again! They once again had to refuse it and insist that the United flight be parked at their gate before they would move. It took a bunch of back and forth between the united flight and ATC to figure out where they were and it became clear how they were in fact in the way.
I am really shocked at the ATC's attitude. If I had been any of those pilots I would have filed a formal complaint. The lost craft repeatedly tried to tell the tower they were lost and the ATC repeatedly belittled the pilot because she knew better. With her piss poor attitude & total disregard for the lives of hundreds she should not be in that position, ever.
W O W! What a career call! Props to those US Air pilots. 300 people had no idea they were going to die that night. Had those pilots in both planes not made the choices and communications they did
This particular incident was covered every year during my airline career recurrent training. It is a cautionary tale about numerous people making mistakes and a smaller number demonstrating good judgment.
*Its ALSO about a phenomenon called PERCEPTUAL SET* Whereby someone believes their understanding is so and never challenges their assumption Its what that controller did. And it could have had lethal consequences. When something feels 'wrong' *If you're P1 or P2 always be prepared to 'recalibrate' what you think the picture is*
I remember when this happened. It was my first few months flying for US. The captain of 2998 was the first captain I flew with on the -200 after OE. He is AWESOME.
@@elbuggo I'd say, the risk she does the same again is less than a new controller is doing the same. So for safety, retraining may indeed the better option.
Yes. Controller was so sure of her assumption she would not consider that she could not see where they were and therefore did not know where they were.
As a pilot myself, my take on this is United 1448 at 10:04 advised the controller they were at the intersection of 23R and 16. They didn't guess, they said that is where we are. The controller said 23 was not the active runway but if she thought about it she would have realized that by looking at their charts and the runway holding position sign that they were on 23 and therefore at the other end is active runway is 05. She didn't know any better than 1448 where they were and as it turned they did and she didn't. I am thinking they either were very close to 05/23 or were on 05/23 and the departing air craft passed over them at low altitude for them to feel the jet blast. . Thank God the US Air crew were listening closely to the confusion. The President couldn't have made me takeoff knowing that 1448 had just advised they were on 23. The fkg controller should have been removed on the spot. That's outright both incompetence, lack of situational awareness, and losing her cool.
I appreciate your reminders to the audience that the information we are seeing on our screens are nothing like what they were "seeing" during the incident. Putting yourself into the shoes of the controller, the lost pilots or the US Air team holding short is itself a useful skill to appreciate how simple things can go wrong in the moment, even when they seem obvious in retrospect.
You can hear in tower controller’s voice that she is completely unsuited for that job. I remember this incident at the time. The USAIr pilots were awarded an airmanship award by ALPA. I don’t remember what happened to the tower controller by but I believe she ended up continuing to work in ATC. It’s been my experience that controllers in the USA are fantastic. She is an exception to that experience.
Sounds like confirmation bias. She was dead certain about the situation yet knowing she couldn't see anything. USAir heard that United didn't know. United knew they didn't know. USair knew United didn't know. But tower, oh she knows for sure! The limit on how many "not knowings" going around is enough to do absolutely nothing at that point. A great showing why a sterile cockpit seems like a really great idea
Yes....she just barrelled ahead regardless of the doubt, and very irritated, forecefully urged the US Air to take off. Almost like in the R. Wagner Flying Dutchman opera about the reason for his 7 year curse was he attempted to do a travel maneuver against logic, and his bullheadedness propelled him to make the ill advised maneuver (around the Cape of Good Hope.) He said: "come hell or high water I'm going to do this...." Astonishingly, the KLM pilot that decided to take off in the fog at Tenerife because he was tired of waiting so long (he wasn't cleared for takeoff) was nicknamed The Flying Dutchman. Well, the other 747 was still on the runway, and couldn't be seen due to fog, so......both 747s hit head on. When the other taxing plane saw the KLM barreling down on them on takeoff, he yelled "What's he doing ??? We're still on the runway......he'll kill us all ! " So many similarities to the current video here....fog....being lost, impatience, bullheadedness, etc...
I am obsessed with accident analysis, this is my favorite so far ! The accident that never was. So many great nuggets. People make the difference, those checks and balances :)
Such a smart move to question EVERYTHING. There is nothing equal to "IFR" when taxiing. Planes have a stopping distance similar to trains rather than vehicles once they build momentum so if their path wasn't guaranteed clear, they did an amazing job. As a junior pilot I had an incident where another aircraft had a severe language barrier. The tower would say to do something and they read it back sort of right, but then did something totally different. This happened several times in a row and it got really scary. The rest of us up there literally had no idea what that aircraft would do next and so all of us (we were in the pattern to land) contacted tower and asked to peel off on dowwind, crosswind, even base. It was chaotic but we all feviated slightly to help the controller clear his airspace to handle a really bad situation. We were all listening to everything, not just the traffic that pertained to our individual aircraft. That pilot got a deviation and the rest of us got a heartfelt thank you from the tower that day. It cost me about 15 minutes (plenty of fuel, hours left) but nobody died. Life is good when everybody pitches in to help out!
As someone who flew in the 90's, I look back fondly on the old charts, as much as they were a pain to open and follow at times, but I agree with you 74, the level of situational awareness then was much higher than it is today. The technology now is incredible and immensely helpful, but we seemed to have lost something along the way.
That's what engineers said when they stopped using the slide rule !! Those guys NEVER got the decimal point in the wrong place. As an accountant myself I remember old-timers who could add up a column of figures in a ledger faster than anyone today using a calculator.
@mipmipmipmipmip Interesting comment. Van Zenten was born in 1927 and got his private pilot's licence in 1947 ehen he was 20. That was the year that I was born. The Tenerife air disaster was in 1977 when he was 50 years old and had been flying for 30 years. As I was born in 1947 and was 30 years old he had been flying all of my life. He was a highly-skilled pilot with no record of errors that I can see. As I know from over 50 years of driving experience mistakes can happen. The book "Judgment Calls: Making Good Decisions in Difficult Situations" by John C. Mowen provides some interesting examples of human error. One was the shooting down of the Iranian civilian aircraft by the United States.
It annoys me that the ATC keeps making the point that she can’t see so why on earth was she not listening and taking the pilots seriously? Doesn’t seem clever on her behalf and hope that she apologised afterwards
Hubris. What's clear to me here is the ATC is supremely and dangerously overconfident. She knows the airport, probably been working there for years, and that contributes to a person feeling like they can't be wrong. Obviously that's a super dangerous attitude for an ATC to have that can't see through the fog.
One of my earliest instructors in the 1970’s taught me to always be aware of what tower is asking you to do rather than just repeating what they say, because it could save your life! This incident is a perfect example of that lesson… exemplified by the US Air crew.
Amen, I was cleared for a left downwind at SAT 13L which I acknowledged. Next call from Twr was to turn right base from a left downwind. I reminded him I was on a left downwind and rejected the right downwind. Had a good conversation with him after I landed. Situational awareness and sterile cockpits are linked!
Same concept applies to the trucking industry. Ive been sent out in sub par trucks, sent on routes that dont make sense for my weight and dimensions, dispatched while off duty (over hours)…at the end of the day, you’re the captain of you plane/boat/truck, its your life and license, not theirs.
after the pilot told the controller they were at an active runway and the controller told them it wasn't one, I would have been sorely tempted to make a mental note to give the controller a number to call when the situation was sorted out. that or simply say, "well, then an airplane just took off from your taxiway."
The pilots lied. When they asked for permission to cross November they were not at November, they were just making stuff up. How is the controller supposed to know
@@VanquishedAgain "Lied" is defined by the Merriam-Webster online dictionary to mean "to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive." However, the United pilots did not attempt to deceive anyone. They were confused about their position and they informed the controller of this.
@@VanquishedAgainthey didn't lie. Bad use of the word. The pilots were lost and confused. They reported a position they thought to be accurate but it wasn't.
Awesome example of situational awareness. My father was an Air Force pilot and I can’t tell you how many times we would talk about this concept. Part of dads school of life! Just made my kids watch this. Thank you!
Modern tech is nice but you need street smarts too. As an old school trucker I used maps and my index cards to navigate. My cards told me a lot -- parking food bathrooms directions to and directions out as these could be two different ways. One time a turned a corner to leave what did I see a whole line of trucks on the side of the road. I pulled over too and walked up to the truck in front of me. Well, it seemed GPS went down since I knew the way out I had a convoy behind me. So people should pay attention to where they are going and what is going on around you. You never know.
Actually I feel that this was a step forward from Tenerife. Instead of just taking off without clearance, the pilots at the end of the runway decided not to take off, even though they did have clearance. But in Tenerife the ATC knew the Pan Am people were lost and were trying to help.
Kelsey, I love how you tackled this story! I know you've been talking about how you'd like to vary the content you produce, but it occurs to me that you are well-suited to do historical event-based videos, similar to what Petter does in Mentour Pilot. Plus, you add a unique pilot perspective to it, and in your own self-deprecating way, you compare the situations to what you personally have been through and how you've learned from it. Just great work on this, and if possible, I'd love to see more videos like this. Good job, man!
actually Kelseys stories complement the stories of Petter. Kelsey gives us ATC communication and his view (and admitting he made a lot of these mistakes himself), while Petters videos are derived from accident reports. For an flight enthusiast like me, who is not a pilot, both are very interesting and educational. Two of my favorite channels!
@@stofflsSure, I agree with you; I never meant to imply that their content is identical, only that doing commentary on historical incidents was something both creators do very well, in their own style.
I can understand the confusion on the controllers part right up to one point. The point where the United reported in that a plane just took off right over or infront of them is when the controller should have woken up. Reporting such a thing isnt exactly a position report, its an observation of something dangerous that just occured, snapping back at the pilot to say 23L isnt an active runway just shows that she didnt hear or ignored the report of a loud jet taking off right infront of them. The controller knows what plane she just cleared to take off, she knows what other planes are taking off since I presume this airport only had 1 active runway at the time. A pilot calling in to say let her know that they dont know where they are, they think they are at an active runway and a plane just took off over or right next to them should have been enough for the controller to snap out of her assumption mode and assess the situation better.
I was in my early teens when my Mom was a CFI and FAA designated examiner. One of the first women. She gave me the task of changing the pages in her Jeppsson manuals when the stack of new pages came in. At the time i didn’t know the differences but later when she flew me through 100 % ifr towards a landing at minimums at then one runway Orange County Airport that i realized the importance. I think that was the most concentrated i have ever seen a human being then or to this day 60ish years later. Never scared, just focused 100% plus on situational awareness thanks Mom for everything!!!!
I remember situations like this from flying with my Dad in our Cessna 182. He had a commercial license and was instrument rated, but he didn't fly professionally. I used to help him update his Jeppsen manuals and navigate around new airports, so I know how easy it is to get turned around. I think the biggest lesson he taught me is that the pilot in command is in charge. This is a perfect example of Dad's wisdom.
I don't think it is my "elderly sentimental memory" but there is, in modern generations, a general laxness in diligence and accuracy in every occupation, not just aviation. I tested for a data entry job when I was in my early 20s. You had to be fast and accurate, and my accuracy was 97% so I didn't pass. I've seen such inaccuracies in this area that I'm sure they no longer have this requirement. The required test to become a mail carrier used to be terribly stringent, but based on our neighborhood's "redivery rate" I'd guess it isn't anywhere near as stringent. You see this relaxed attitude just in automobile traffic. People running red lights, rear ending cars from inattention, etc. People just aren't generally situationally aware as much, and too impatient to be careful and accurate. Think about the aerospace industry in the 1960s and all those calculations done BY HAND! We never would have made it to the moon with today's standard of accuracy.
@@Freezorgium ?? Not sure your point here. Yes they are both pilots. But only ONE pilot is PIC (Pilot in command) of an airplane. Not both as was incorrectly stated above.
Thinking it’s just going to “work out” is a very real phenomena that occurs in all walks of life. It takes a lot of discipline to be prepared to be embarrassed or criticized to do the right thing sometimes.
I worked as a baggege handler for 19years with USAIR/ USAIRWAYS. Best job and Co-workers anyone could wish for. Miss it everyday!!! Proud to see our Pilots made a great call...❤
As a controller, you do develop a sense when somethings not right. This controller ignored the warning signs... a pilot saying they're not where they think they should be. Thankfully the USAir pilot picked up on it and did the right thing and waited.
As a passenger who watches and listens, I can't believe what controllers are expected to be able to do, or how they can keep doing their jobs without suffering extreme burnout before the end of each shift. Set them up for success, and they do the heavy lifting well.
You have to remember that back in '99, there was no social media. Such recordings were not sought after. I'm sure if we actually went to the archives we could find quite a few instances like this where ATC acted like complete bags of garbage.
False, MySpace and Facebook both existed as well as IRC, multiple IMs, message boards, and forums. Saying social media didn't exist in 1999 is blatantly false and you likely weren't even born then or still in diapers. Facebook was a DARPA program called Lifelog which coincidently stopped the same day "Facebook" was official but the web site was invite only for 4-5 years until the name change.
As a passenger, landing at MacCarron in Las Vegas after (it turns out) a long weather delay, our plane did a sudden climb above the threshold and went around as another plane passed under us landing on the crossing runway. Everybody had GPS's. It still comes down to situational awareness and deprioritizing the airline stuff like gate schedules, connections, etc.
It should be remembered that, in 1991, a USAir flight landed on a Skywest flight that was still on the active runway at LAX killing 23. It was due to ATC error.
Just bc they’ve cleared you doesn’t mean they aren’t trying to kill you…. I always assume both ground and tower are actually trying to take me out. Double check both ways when cleared to taxi across runways. Identify and verify the assigned runway - and check no one landing downwind. They work long shifts and make mistakes.
I work tower at a heavily fogged airport in Norway, and we have clear LVP procedures to have only one vehicle moving on the AoR for the given frequency during heavy fog, even though we have ground radar. This is to ensure no situations like this actually causing an incident.
Great call by the US Air pilot and for staying so situationally aware. This is a perfect example of why sterile cockpit is important even during taxi. I was flying back then, and those paper airport diagrams required extreme attention at some airports like that one even during the day and in good weather. At night and in poor weather, you just see a maze of taxiway and runway lights that can be confusing. The United acft was far from the first to make a mistake like that.
I was involved in a very similar situation in Alaska in the late 80s. There was an airport vehicle lost on the airfield at night, in the fog. The vehicle was in contact with the tower, but obvious had missed turns twice. This was prior to the ground radar system that exists now. ATC called a ground stop, and luckily had some time before the next arrival. ATC ordered the state vehicle to simply stop, hold their position and wait for an escort vehicle to come out and lead them back to ramp area. The vehicle was being operated by a high level member of the airport staff, and suffice it to say, he wasn’t happy. A controller who was primarily concerned with safety, and being forceful helped avoid a potential accident. (Not caring about the driver’s ego or pride)
I personally don't like to point fingers of blame on these videos because I view them as learning opportunities to broaden my understanding and perspective regarding various aviation scenarios. In this case, I feel both the Untied and US Air flight crews did an exceptional job of communicating with the tower while holding their respective positions which prevented what could have been a very catastrophic accident. Kelsey, your interpretation of the comms from a pilots viewpoint are priceless!!
If you want to learn from this you are going to have to look at who's to blame or am I missing something? Pointing fingers is a good thing to do. You want to be a liberal and be nice to everyone doesn't work. People need to be told what they do wrong in many situations. Yes the truth might hurt. But the more it stings the more it sticks 😉 This is not a playground.
As a retired controller I can say this is shown to every new controller that comes in the building of my last place. I didn’t work at providence but I worked with someone that was working in that tower at the time.
One thing I learned while Paragliding was the concept of Airmanship. And that good Airmanship is not only about technical skills but also situational awareness and decision making. And that the decision not to fly is also part of good Airmanship.
I fly out of PVD. That controller sounds like the cranky one we have there. Last week she was clearance delivery and ground. I called for clearance. No reply after about 30 seconds. No traffic on the radio. I called again. She replied " Sorry you are impatient and couldn't wait 30 seconds." My CFI and I were shocked ( I am IFR Training).
I haven’t had a run in with her but I’ve heard her get snippy with others before. Lucky to fly out of there since they’re one of the few places with an DME Arc approach. The funniest exchange I’ve ever caught was just north of there in OWD. A pilot said “thank you ma’am” after picking up his craft… well clearance, ground, and tower were all being run by the same person… who is very much a man. I was dying laughing when he asked for his taxi / take off clearances each time only to be met with the same controller who was clearly annoyed. 😂😂😂😂
Keep it totally professional. When you hear her voice, turn on the "USAir 2998 pilots keeping their cool" mode. If you fly out of PVD frequently, you want the ATC to be thinking, "wow, that pilot makes my job easier."
I doubt she is still there. If you have a problem with a controller ask them for their operating Initials and a time hack and tell them to tell their supervisor to secure the recording. Then ask for a phone number for the facility and file a complaint.
Thank you for sharing this. The PanAm/KLM disaster at Tenerife in the 1970s was caused by fog and a taxiing plane on an active runway and some communication problems between ATC and the pilots. We salute the USAir pilots for their prudence which avoided another disaster.
Watching this video absolutely sent shivers down my spine. There are several memories I have as a kid that even today are as fresh in my mind as if they were yesterday. One of those is the Tenerife Airport Disaster in '77. I may only have been 8 at the time but I vividly remember the news reports coming through and also subsequently read up on what happened. Hearing Kelsey describe this incident showed some of the similarities and who knows what would have happened if those pilots hadn't simply stopped and exercised some patience and caution!
My aunt and uncle died in that crash. I was about the same age and remember staying up all night watching news reports with my family. They were scrolling survivor names.
My understanding is that the Tenerife disaster was a result of the captain of one plane being very dominating, to the extent that while several in the crew knew it was not ok to enter the runway, they were unwilling to speak up. As a result, the emphasis has been changed, so all crew members are expected to speak up if they feel anything is not right.
@@rickcollins2814 That was a large part of the cause for sure, but the foggy weather and lack of situational awareness was another. In this instance, it was the ATC who was being (or trying to be) domination as well as having lost that crucial situational awareness. I wonder if this had happened in the 70's what the result would have been regarding the pilots not backing down to the ATC.
@@rickcollins2814 Yes, KLM's chief 747 flight instructor and chief pilot (yes, they still had that title back then) Jacob Veldhuyzen Van Zanten was the captain who took off without a clearance despite repeated queries from his first officer (Klaas Meurs), and the fact that they knew another aircraft was back-taxiing and struggling to find the correct exit to allow him to rejoin. That other aircraft was actually the first 747 to be delivered to an airline - Pan Am - and had made the first commercial 747 flight. Even during the takeoff roll, when the Pan Am aircraft (Clipper 1736) was instructed by ATC to report when the runway is clear, and had replied "OK, we will report when we're clear" and Van Zanten's Flight Engineer (Willem Scheuder) had given a further warning, Van Zanten continued, and killed himself along with 582 others, including all on his aircraft and most on Clipper 1736 (which had 61 survivors out of 396 on board. Van Zanten was the last of the old-school training captains who held that the 1st officer was there to learn to be a captain and the flight engineer was someone who failed flying school, but only the captain's opinion mattered, and he was always right. He himself provided the perfect reasoning for the end of that school of thought and the introduction of Crew Resource Management through the industry (KLM were the last hold-out in Europe, IIRC, and that was very much Van Zanten's responsibility. KLM delayed any comment on the collision for several hours trying to get the opinion of their Chief Pilot, before realised he was the captain involved. They eventually accepted full responsibility for the collision (after a lengthy fight though - they even issued their own version of the accident investigation). I was glued to the news as it came out, particularly as my grandparents had just returned from a holiday in Tenerife. Many changes came about, not just to the way aircrew work together. Radio calls were made much tighter and specific words were prohibited except in the very specific circumstance which called for them - takeoff being the first and most obvious. You may say you are ready (or not) for departure, but NEVER for takeoff.
Great instructional video. While working on my Comm Instr my CFI who was also an aircrew man on a P3 and I were heading back to the home airport from HNL, a red star field at the time. It was just before dusk. We had been cleared to taxi on runway and hold. We got the clearance to t/o and started to roll when all we could hear was our call sign and a controller screaming abort, abort, abort. We did without a second thought. Maybe a couple of seconds later a NW Orient 747 passed directly overhead with minimal clearance. Four pilots and a controller breathed a huge sigh of relief that was audible. The 747 went around, we were released for t/o and headed home. Known for his calm under fire approach to life in general, my CFI (the second one to utter basically the same words) said, "my wife would've hated being such a young widow," with a big grin. Just another day in naval aviation.
It amazes me that more people don't get hurt or die on a daily basis, simply because they are not paying attention to their surroundings. I have trained myself to be aware of my surroundings at all times. I work in manufacturing plants, and on machines and locations i don't know, as i am only at a site for a day or two at most. There's so much stuff around that can hurt, maim, or straight up kill you. And yet i see people walking with their head in their cell phone, headphones in, not paying attention. It boggles the mind, it truly does. Situational awareness is for everybody. It's your own health and life you are protecting. And, if you have a family, your family as well. Especially children, they have no concept of how dangerous the world truly is.
On the airport diagram graphics, such as the one at 3:52, I would recommend that the aircraft be colored in a contrasting way so that they could be quickly seen. The gray-colored airplanes do not really stand out very well, and since the graphics are only up for a few seconds, it takes time to locate them on the screen. Maybe if the planes were colored green, red, or yellow, then they would stand out and be easier to spot. I love the videos, Kelsey!
Obviously, the US Air pilot was awesome that day. He did what any airline pilot should've done in that situation. What astonishes me about the events is that ATC didn't have any procedure in place to verify the location of planes on their field before clearing another plane for takeoff, knowing they can't see anything from the tower. She instructed 1448 to notify her after crossing runway 16, but she doesn't wait for them to do so before she just assumes the active runway is clear. This extremely dangerous situation is all created by the ATC, and is not the fault of the 1448 pilots. It's simply unacceptable that ATC would give runway clearances completely blind and not knowing if the runway is actually clear. And because ATC is the federal government, we'll never know if there was any accountability or lessons learned.
I was repositioning a CRJ900 and was told I could cross the active runway. I looked up and saw a planes landing lights on final approach. I told the controller that I couldn’t go due to the landing aircraft. She nearly had a heart attack and told me to hold position. When I got to the terminal she asked me to call her cell phone. She fell all over herself apologizing. Scary night for me.
This only worked out because everyone was on the same frequency and speaking the same language. That so often isn't the case, which could easily lead to disaster. If the lost aircraft had been on a ground frequency or had been speaking a local language, the other pilots would have had no idea.
@@pauldarlington5589 No, they don't. They are required to be able to use English, but they don't always do so. Local pilots will often speak the local language.
@@pauldarlington5589 Paul yes correct a universal requirement but not a legal one or by regs. Local language is favoured in non-english countries (and overall is safer) but dialect / poor English enunciation is the v biggest problem in the room. Freighting into smaller non-english airports can be a real challenge at times.
Long ago the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) made English the standard civil aviation language. "ICAO requires that language skills of pilots and controllers rated at Level 4 are reassessed every three years, Level 5 pilots and controllers - every six years, while at Level 6, no further assessment of English language skills is deemed necessary."
I love how unbothered by the controller the US Air crew sounds. "Nope, we're not doing it, and we do not give a flying flip if you don't like it." More people need to be like those pilots.
@Smithpolly Sure. But imagine if the launch team for STS-51-L had the guts to tell the politicians, "No, we're not launching today. It's too cold and the SRBs won't seal properly. We don't care about your threats or that the State of The Union is tonight, this is too reckless and you're eventually going to kill some astronauts if we keep launching in the cold." Because remember, they knew about the o-ring issue from other cold-weather flights.
A horrible situation for everyone involved to have experienced (including the air traffic controller). From what I presume, three things emerged from this: 1. Nobody got hurt. 2. Many got to hear about it, and therefore it was able to provide a valuable lesson. 3. This event scenario can now be used time and time again to train and teach others involved in aircraft movement and aircraft management operations. Thanks for this video and the commentary. It is really appreciated.
you only need to look at what happened on the runway with flights 4805 (KLM) & 1736 (PAN AM) on the spanish island of tenerife on a unusually fog bound day in march 1977. 583 passengers and crew were killed due to aircraft and tower mis-communications and an impatient KLM pilot. the high number of fatalities was down to the fact it was two fully loaded 747's. so kudos to these pilots who probably saved a lot of lives that night. and great video again !
This is a unique situation and an incredibly good example of how easily things can go very wrong. Literally EVERY pilot knows what happened at Tenerife. My guess is that's what went through the heads of the US Air pilots when they made their call. It takes at least some courage to counter ATC like that, which fortunately most pilots have.
I work in heartsurgery, and as part of our training at one educational meeting we had ABC news aviation correspondent carfully go through the Tieneriffe accident, and analyze it from a resource management training angle. It was very helpful that you should speak up when there are concerns.
At the end its always that deep inner gutt feeling that saves the day. Every experienced pilot, ship captain and train engineer, truck/bus driver can tell you such stories. Its remarkable how we humans can "bond" with a machine and become a team..
9:15 my university professor touched on this same topic by explaining the “5 LEVELS OF COMPETENCE” 1 - unconscious incompetence - where you are oblivious to how much you don’t know 2 - conscious incompetence - you’re still not capable, but are aware of how little you actually know 3 - conscious competence - with focus, you can achieve your task 4 - unconscious competence (the ideal) - where you’ve gotten good enough at something it’s almost second nature 5 - unconscious INDIFFERENCE (the dangerous) - where you’ve gotten so routine at things you start to exhibit a lack of care and don’t think about things properly. That the other pilots declined to takeoff til issue resolved and we’re paying attention is a prime example of this :)
About a year ago I started watching “Mayday” the air crash investigation show and when I did I thought, “This might be how you get yourself a fear of flying.” I have to say the opposite has happened. The amount of thorough detail they go through to learn what went wrong and how to avoid the problem in the future has absolutely made flying safer. Of course technology has helped too. When I was a kid in the 80s it seemed like there was a major crash every year or two. As it stands now, (knocking on wood) we haven’t had a crash since 2009 and that was a smaller plane in Buffalo. If this were still the 70s, 80s, or 90s we’d have had at least 5-7 big incidents in a 14 year stretch. That’s anywhere between 300-1200 people that are alive because of the work that goes into studying mishaps and accidents. Total respect and appreciation for any and all doing that work
I've become slight obsessed with that show. Flight safety is truly built on the blood of those who came before us. The show makes me feel so much safer to fly. I'm a physician. Medicine has learned some from flight safety, but we need to take a much deeper dive into many of these practices!
“Ma’am I’m trying to tell you that we are on an active runway! We just had a plane take off right in front of us!” Controller: I can’t see anything from the tower. Also controller: “That first plane is nowhere near the runway guys, even though they just insisted and I can’t see anything. Clear for takeoff.” That woman’s attitude could have killed so many people.
Watching some of your videos, getting ready to turn off the tv when this one came on. It immediately caught my interest so had to watch it. Instantly brought back memories of the accident in DTW, Dec 3rd, 1990. Scanning through a lot of comments, but it looks like no one else mentioned it. Similar weather conditions. A DC-9 crew (NW1482) was redirected while taxiing in fog. They became disoriented, ending up on an active runway. The situation became critical and ATC told them (something to the effect of get off that runway immediately). Meanwhile a B727 (NW299) was already on his take off roll. I believe that the DC-9 crew started to turn left onto the grass when the 3-holer's R/H wing tore through the R/H side of the DC-9's fuselage opening it up like a can opener, from cockpit to tail, right about window level or just above. I saw the DC-9 in the hangar a few days later; not a pretty sight. Bad situation. I'm sure that the controller would have called for a ground stop, but it happened so fast.
They cover this incident in Tower class at the FAA Academy. The video replay and charts used there show the UAL plane well over the hold short line and possibly even nosing into the runway. It's amazing how arrogant and aggressive the ATC gets when she can't see anything. And, as is customary, she is now a safety representative or manager of some kind. I guess it ultimately humbled her massively when she went back and saw the full picture.
I remember that training and came here to give this exact comment. If I remember the training correctly, it was really only dumb sheer luck that the FedEx missed them (because airborne), and a solid possibility that the USAir wouldn't have.
That means that one ATC controller got suspended for a few days. If the ATC can't see the planes, what the heck then giving them clearance to take off?? Absolute Bravo to the pilots for just standing still till everything gets worked out.
@@alanwalker4520 ATC always will give takeoff clearances in ultra-low visibility, when they can't see the runways. Fog can't shut down the whole system. The problem was this controller was WAAAAY too confident that the plane was not where they said they were, which is really arrogant of her to just assume the pilots were wrong.
"I guess it ultimately humbled her massively . . . " That's the part I was waiting to hear, some kind of humility or realization to occur. The video really left us hanging.
Doubtful. Too many women can't admit when they're wrong (not even to themselves), and I've seen (and experienced) too many of them for whom power absolutely went to their heads. Not that men can't be the same way, but almost nobody is surprised by that. We don't expect women to be that way, but I've seen it in the military, in private industry, and especially in the public sector.
It's so crazy to me that someone can get hired as a controller if they're that impatient, even on a zero visibility foggy night and when pilots are unquestionably confused about where they are.
She made me so angry for those poor pilots. I'd have told her "WE MAY BE ON AN ACTIVE RUNWAY YOU FOOL - ARE YOU PAYING ATTENTION - HELLO? ANYONE HOME?!" 👀😏
Never ever forget you are working with humans. In aviation most anyone tries to perform flawless, but there is no such thing as a flawless humen being. ATC world wide sadly ever more often work under heavier workloads than planned, resulting in higher stress levels than even the most down to earth people can completely absorb without dropping a single stitch. So when you hear of something like this, before pointing a finger, quietly appreciate the fact that it means you're not the only one making mistakes.
The United 1448 / ATC communication was one of the primary examples we had when we brought Crew Resource Management training to my IT teams in Germany. This was great CRM and communication by the US Air crew.
I used this foul up as an example in airport operations when I taught ground school. Important to the incident was the old taxiway layout. If you look at the layout at 3:13, that's the new layout. The old layout had a V shaped split at what's label HS3; one branch crossed 16/34 and the other crossed 5R/23L. The United plane was on the one that crossed 5R with it's nose over the runway. It finished up the United plane taxied across the active and made 2 lefts onto 16/34. BTW, after re-training, this controller was transferred to approach control. After paling this video 40 times, I recognized her voice.
Well, she IS Union so there's no way, short of an act of God Himself, that anyone could really do anything to her. One of the worst ego trips I've ever heard anyone be on!
A Good Judge , along with a good Prosecutor might have resulted in a Cell approach And landing for the Negligent Tower controller. After reading many of the comments, i am astonished that she was not either Prosecuted And Or Fired. The Pilot's + Passenger's along with THEIR AIRCRAFT were Saved by Professional Pilot's + The Grace Of GOD. As I mentioned in my Original Comment, i Believe, that the Pilot's had a Legal Duty to Report this Event to The FAA And to The Airport Management. The Pilot's were correct to return to a gate to Report to their Management, who would assist The Pilot's in Reporting the Event in Accordance with the Rules + Proper Safety Follow Up with The FAA + The Airport Management. When i wrote my Original Comment, i had not yet read the comments of any other Commentator's. It Appears from the Intelligent Replying Commentator's, that we are in Agreement. Every Life is IMPORTANT. These Pilot's as well as Saving their Passenger's Lives + All Pilot's + Crew...these intelligent Pilot's possibly also Saved that Tower Controller Life that Night... The Guilt that would result after being Responsible for the lost of Human Lives would cause the Tower Controller to suffer serious Consequences. Traffic Controllers suffer a large number of people who burn out or controllers who drink too much Alcohol...rendering the Controller unfit for the job as Controller. The Tower Controller on Duty on the recording was clearly Negligent. Frankly, i would not willingly fly into any Airport in fog conditions, if i knew she was on Duty. It is my belief, if ALL The Affected Pilot's made The Report's to the FAA + The Airport Management, then she would be removed. That is the purpose of making Complaint's to The FAA + to The Airport Management. Then, after Official Investigation, and, after listening to the Audio Recording's from The AIRCRAFT + the Audio Recording's from the Tower, appropriate Decision's would result. Safety for AIRCRAFT, Passenger's + Crew including each of the Pilot's is the reason for Review's, FAA Investigation's, And, for Official Pilot's Formal Incidents Report's. The Fact that if the Controller was incompetent, Then that person should not remain a Tower Controller! Yes, I Am An International Lawyer. Yes, i Believe, that the controller was unfit to be in such a responsible position of Tower Controller.
I’m just a passenger. If my pilot calls for assistance I expect the tower to assist. “I don’t know” are my favorite words until you give life threatening instructions right after saying it. A simple, ok pilot, describe where you are and what you see so I can direct you. She made a mistake by being complacent. 5 minutes doesn’t seem too much.
It's cool that older records are available for analysis like this. That's really impressive on the part of the US Air pilot. It really is easy to trust everything is working as intended and just stay in your own bubble of operations.
i do have a back-up camera, but I feel more comfortable with the mirror. I am so used to seeing a mirrored image, and the camera feed is not mirrored :)
It's great for precision parking tho. Seeing curbs and crap. Angry sign post also, just waiting to smack the car to pieces which they tend to do for some reason because some angry municipal employee places them at the exact wrong spot to spite drivers
It’s worth mentioning that ATCs can have an attitude of omnipotence. It’s an ego trip being in charge or thousands of tons of heavy jets, and whether they’re willing to admit it or not, they develop tunnel vision to keep planes moving. If anything stops that they can get downright surly. Speaking from experience…..
During my Air Force career, there were several times during severe fog, where we would either tow an aircraft out to the runway for takeoff, or tow an aircraft off the runway after landing, since it was too foggy to taxi.
@@driftlesstrekker4709 that depends. When you're taking off, you don't have to read the signs identifying the runway as you zip by. There are legal visibility minimums for taking off, but I'm not sure how much that would apply to the military. After all, if you have a potentially hostile aircraft approaching your airspace, you aren't going to not intercept them because it's foggy.
@@driftlesstrekker4709 A CAT IIIb approach can have visibility requirements as low as 150ft, with no decision height. The military also has an obvious interest in being able to operate in absolutely all conditions possible.
They 100% made the right call. Nothing worse than making a certain call in an uncertain situation if that call will lead to disaster if you are wrong, and all doing the opposite will cost you is a bit of time. Which by the way is what the ATC did in the wrong direction.
I am a former Piedmont USAir captain. I had this exact situation occur on the same runway. I also refused to take off. Fortunately, the runway was clear, but I didn’t know that so I held in position. I got chewed out by the FAA and my chief pilot. I stand by that decision to this day. The pilot in command is the pilot in command. We better act like it at all times. No regrets.
Good for you! IMO you made the right decision! As a passenger, I would most definitely have wanted you as my pilot!
That's interesting...is this specific runway particular in some sense like often full of fog or disorienting? Can not be only by chance that this is happening more than once
the fact they chewed you out is what causes accidents next time. as not everyone will refuse second time
Exactly! Insane that the FAA chewed you out! They should be happy you put safety first. Who is policing the police here! We need an organization to make the FAA do the right thing!
@@mellie4174 Agreed! What you said reminds me of a great episode of Star Trek The Generation: "Who Watches the Watchers?"!
A take off clearance is never an order to take off. Hats off to these USAir pilots for using their discretion properly and declining to take off when they knew something wasn't right.
"A take off clearance is never an order to take off" As I said to my kid when I was teaching him to drive: "If you're at a stop sign, waiting and waiting for a chance to cross the intersection and finally the car behind you honks, that's not an offer to pay your deductible if you get into an accident".
This is why when my wife drives, I have to navigate
@@marcmcreynolds2827 I have a similar saying regarding being cut off or someone taking your priority at an intersection "You can be the guy in hospital saying 'I had the right of way', or you can just accept that someone cut you off and move on with your day."
The controller in Tenerife cleared a 747 for takeoff when they didn’t know where another 747 was on the ground either and we know the outcome of that 🫤
To be fair I've been the guy honking and a lot of people are waiting for some stupid shit like both lanes to be clear going right because they want to make a left turn a quarter mile down the road.
Pull into the right lane, then merge left. Get out of the damn way or take the bus.@@marcmcreynolds2827
The Captain of USair flight was Randy Tilly,a great pilot and friend. He received a safety award and recognition for his actions.
Very happy to hear that. Thank you for sharing.
And what about that female in the tower?
@@joejones4172she’s still in the tower waiting for a prince to save her 😂
Any information on the tower?
@@Ryan-mq2mi I don't remember what happened with the tower controller other than no one lost their job for this specific incident.
For all those wondering what happened after the final "OK" from the US Air pilots....the controller and United crew finally figured out where they actually were, and once the controller had them safely cleared and taxiing, the controller again cleared the US Air flight for takeoff. At which point the US Air crew refused AGAIN, saying: "We'd like to have United at a gate." See this excerpt describing the incident from a 1999 Washington Post article (starting from the first moments of the incident):
The United crew realized something was wrong and called the tower but reported an incorrect location, apparently believing they were on Cross-Runway 16, clear of the active runway. At about that point, the FedEx cargo plane flew directly overhead. One source close to the investigation said it is possible that the roar of the FedEx engines drowned out the transmission saying the United crew was on a runway.
"Somebody just took off," an increasingly concerned United pilot told the tower. It is unclear whether the FedEx or United crew saw the other plane through the fog, or if the controller realized the closeness of the encounter.
The controller then began quizzing the United pilots. At least four times the United crew reported their position as Runway 23 Right at Runway 16. In truth they were at Runway 23 Left at Runway 16, directly in the path of the US Airways plane, but out of sight 4,000 feet down the runway.
Apparently satisfied that the United plane was out of the way, the controller gave the US Airways plane clearance to take off. The US Airways crew, having listened to the radio conversation between the controller and the United crew, refused.
A source who interviewed both pilots extensively said they held back because of the "tone of uncertainty" in the United pilots' voices. Both pilots said they immediately rejected any idea of takeoff, the source said, with the captain telling the co-pilot, "No, don't take that," just as the co-pilot said, "I don't want to do that."
"Where's United?" the crew asked the controller. The controller assured them that United was clear, the US Airways crew told an investigator. The crew told the investigator that the controller grew frustrated, telling them again that the United plane was out of the way, but the US Airways crew was adamant.
Again, the controller began quizzing the United crew about their location. It was then that the United crew determined their true location. Once the plane was safely taxiing toward the terminal, the controller told the US Airways crew to taxi onto the active runway and prepare for departure.
Again, the US Airways crew refused, saying, "We'd like to have United at a gate."
US Airways declined to name its crew or to discuss the details of the event.
👏Thank you for sharing! I'm sure the US Airways crew are happy to remain unnamed but never unthanked!
I wonder if there were any reprimands or mandatory training for the controller or did they just brush it aside
Any word on what happened to the controller? She could have killed a lot of people with her horrible attitude.
@@kennythewolf The problem almost certainly doesn't end at that controller though.
When your airport has to be a for profit business, there's a lot of pressure on the controllers to keep things moving. ATC being overworked isn't a new problem.
Sure, maybe an exceptionally good controller would have immediately noticed the issue, but if your system requires exceptional people to function, you have a shitty system.
Thank you for sharing this
As a retired controller, I can say this has never happened at the places I worked, some very fog prone, but the standard reply to such a situation
was " All aircraft on tower frequency hold your present position. Due to visibility, we need to account for all traffic. Stand by".
So why was this controller so arrogant. Her arrogance would have killed 100s of people that night if the pilots of both planes were not confident in following their gut feeling
I agree completely. @@GreenPassportStories
@@GreenPassportStoriesTenerife?
@@tyrotrainer765 Tenerife was sadly a case of one of the pilots being in a hurry to get out of the whole chaos that the airport became. Sadly (and with the benefit of hindsight), he’d had been better off in that chaos than the one his decision and actions would cause. SMH.
@@GreenPassportStories Yep the KLM captain screwed up big time.
I am a retired airline pilot. (B727, DC-10, B747)...we were shown this video years ago as part of our recurrent training. I have always held this Captain/crew in HIGHEST REGARD as they were being PRESSURED by ATC to vacate/expedite....(we heard the ATC transmissions). Sully did a great job...but in my opinion..this took tremendous integrity. Well done fellow airmen and others please LEARN from this...most of the time it wouldn't matter..but this time it did. Many lives saved.
Not an airline pilot, but a GA one. Wasnt sure if my pitot was working, so asked for a high speed taxi down the runway. It was working, so asked to exit and taxi back. Tower told me I can turn around and go back to the end of the runway or "take it from where I was". I replied with "no, I'd like to taxi back". As I did, they pushed me even more with "I need you to expedite take off, there are arrivals behind you!!" My gut feeling was to say "unable, I'm exiting the runway and will go when ready", but I gave in and got rushed to take off. Had a really poor climb performance - barely 200ft/min. Climbed and flew the plane (in IMC nonetheless), and a few mins later, doing the climb checklist figured my mixture was leaned for taxi and stayed that way (!).
Learning lesson: never get pushed by ATC. I'd rather call the number than accept a clearance when I'm not ready or when my gut feeling says dont. As for "taking it from where I was" - thats how people have ended up in NTSB reports and air safety institute videos. Glad I said no.
What's your opinion of the DC-10 as compared to the two Boeings?
@@Asdayasman the 10 was a magnificent airplane, particularly the powerful DC 10-30 which had incredible lift overweight ratio.. it had very thick glass windshield which made it quiet for long haul, which is what we did… And the seats were incredibly comfortable… I flew some of the early 747 and it was a pig.
@@VerissimusAurelius Good to know, thank you.
A quiet cockpit is not a word three holer pilots are familiar with, especially at higher speeds! P. S. Great callsign!
If there's no visibility and no "technology" to pinpoint where everyone is, how the hell does the controller make the assumption that "they're not anywhere near the runway"? The pilot who decided to hold clearly had a working brain.
Haven’t watched the whole thing, but if anyone’s afraid of this, know today there are collision avoidance systems on the ground to prevent this from ever happening again.
there's a comment below that says the United pilots actually gave her the wrong location several times. She would have assumed they were clear based on that information.
@@MsJubjubbird zero visibility, zero assumptions.
Well said!!
Yeah and if Ms. Smartiepants had her brain working, AND LISTENING then she might have figured out that U1448 was short of 16 and must have taken a wrong turn between the runways. The Pilot told her a plane just took off over them indicating where they were.
I flew for US Air when this happened, I was 25 years old. It made the news. I'm a 737 Capt now at another airline and more than double the age. I have never forgotten this lesson. I listen to everything. Ipads are great, but no replacement for instinct and real situational awareness. Expectation Bias is a force to be reckoned with. It can happen to anyone. (Obviously with ATC Too) When in doubt, set the brake and hit the mike.
I hope all pilots are similar to you! Safety first, please. 👍
Thankfully our pilots are consummate professionals as demonstrated by this and many other errors where pilots were the final line of defense and did their jobs well. Many pilots are former military and I have absolute respect for them
So what Happened afterwards?
Technology makes us lazy, dependable, dumb and decreases our human competencies. In short, it makes the aviation industry less safe and pilots less autonomous.
Would you have made the same decision?
I’m a commercial pilot myself and I thank God for the US Airways pilots in this situation! Their situational awareness in this incident more than likely saved hundreds of lives! I am grateful for them and their determination to choose safety first!!
Edit clarification.
After a little googling.
After hearing the confusion of UAL, US Air declined takeoff clearance until it was reported that UAL had reached the terminal.
Pilots of UAL were sent for additional training.
ATC wasn’t officially faulted but sent for remedial training before returning to duty.
FedEx declined the TO clearance? Or USAir? If FedEx declined, who was it that took off while the United was holding short of (or on) 23L?
@@David-yh4wz sorry cleared it up. It was a FedEx that basically took off over UAL. USAir stayed put until confirmed that UAL had reached the terminal.
FedEx took off. USAir declined and held short. I had to listen twice to understand that.
Thanks for the rest of this information. I was really curious how it all ended up working out...
Hopefully, the remedial training included actually listening to, what the pilots were telling her, and also never giving takeoff clearances, when another plane tells her, they are right at the active runway, and that 1 plane has already taken off right in front of them. No matter how certain she thinks, she is, she has to listen to those out there.
Props to the pilots for sticking to their professionalism. Their extreme show of character saved lives and gives example for everyone in their field.
Both crews were not afraid to speak up. 🫡
ATC 35 years. I was working at another Tower in New England when this event happened. I have never been so embarrassed by the conduct of a fellow 'professional'. Even now, 20+ years after the event, hearing this transcript again still makes my blood boil. The silver lining is that PVD was moved up on the priority list to get the ASDE-X ground radar. The bottom line is that it takes the active participation of air traffic control AND pilots to keep the system safe. Kudos to those USAir pilots!
The jaw-dropping moment for me is when she says, "You shouldn't be anywhere near Kilo" -- She's _so close_ to recognizing the gravity of the situation, but she still misses the point.
"Shouldn't" being the key word there... that's dangerous territory for that controller. Theory is nice and all, but reality is what actually matters and can get people killed. That should have been a massive wake-up to the controller to reevaluate the situation immediately.
Controller should have called for a complete ground halt , sorted out their situation before resuming !
So they're clearly lost, admit they're clueless, stating being on an active runway, and she acts like nothing could be wrong. It seems to me she should have a job as a grocery bagger where she can't kill a lot of innocent people.
Yeah, that's approaching "Why are there mountain goats?" territory.
Yes but we are.
The pilot was a true hero. To not just fall into the trap of following "orders" from others takes a lot of strength.
both sets I'd say. United for stopping and trying to figure out where they were instead of blundering along, and yes, USAir for their "that's a negative on take off"
It doesn't take that much strength. You just don't do things you think are wrong. If more people would do this things would be far better than they are.
It take strength. See the book 'Obedience To Authority' by Milgram.
Many US pilots are ex military. They are taught to think on their feet.
No the pilot was not a hero. He was a true professional, he did his job, and he did it well.
Man I love all the comments of former and current pilots who take this scenario and lesson to heart. You all constantly live up to rigorous standards and it makes an enthusiast and passenger like myself have complete confidence in the air crews I encounter. You guys are simply awesome!
I am really shocked at the ATC's attitude. If I had been any of those pilots I would have filed a formal complaint. The lost craft repeatedly tried to tell the tower they were lost and the ATC repeatedly belittled the pilot because she knew better. With her piss poor attitude & total disregard for the lives of hundreds she should not be in that position, ever. Kudos to the professional, humble & insightful pilots in all the craft.
Agree. If I was the USAir pilot, I would have been tempted to reply to the takeoff clearance with "Ah Tower, possible controller deviation. I have a number for you to call. Advise ready to copy."
United: "We're lost, we think we're on a runway."
Her attitude: "I don't know where you are, but you're not at that point."
US Air: "We're not moving until we know exactly where they are."
FAA needs to have a word with the controller.
The pilot should have given that ATC a phone number to call. 😂
No doubt!
😂😂
No need. They can call the tower after they park. They shouldn't be answering phone calls while they're taxiing anyway.
@j_taylor it was a joke as normally its ATC giving pilots a number to call if they mess up
😂😂
That was 22 years after the Tenerife accident, I can't believe the controller didn't learn a lesson from that
NicksStuff I'm old enough to remember tenerife accident from 1977. Such a tragic accident, so many lives lost. It could have been a preventable accident. So many if's 1. If pan am was able to do a hold rather than landing at previous airport, since that airport was closed due to terroists bomb in terminal. All planes were directed to los rodas, a regional airport that was ill equipped no ground radar, weather was unpredictable, fog rolling in off the mountain. 2. If tower at los rodas had denied the Klm to refuel. Since they had enough fuel to go back to previous airport. 3. Klm took off w/o a takeoff clearance, they were given only a route clearance. 4. Klm captain during the investigation, realizing that he had not done an actual flight for many months, training pilots in a stimulator environment; not actual in flight, not dealing with ATC. 5. If the captain had listen to his flight engineer, in reference to his request and or question is the pan am off the runway. 6. Unfortunately impatience did play a role, the weather had worsen, if they had waited 5 - 10 minutes the weather had very much improved in reference to visibility.
You think that it happening 22 years later means they didn’t learn a lesson? Humans are fallable
Well, good thing the pilots in both planes did. I don't understand how atc can hear a pilot say they don't know if they are on an active runway, and just assume they aren't despite no ground radar or visual.
@@AccidentallyOnPurpose Tunnel vision. But yeah, they should be trained to recognize that risk
Too much time in between. Pushes critical incidents out of memory for some and others who are now adults weren't paying attention - they were busy being kids. I was 40 when 9/11 occurred. It will always be burned into my brain. I remember every detail of the entire day vividly. Unfortunately, too many others don't. My kids were 8 and 6 at the time. We mostly shielded them from it because as parents we don't wanna see our kids traumatized, but at a certain point they need to know. Anyone signing up to be in ATC should be taught about past incidents as part of their training along with how many souls were lost (if any) to emphasize the criticality of what they do.
My brother is a pilot and instructor for a large airline company, he has said that pilots need to be taught that it’s ok to say ‘unable’ when they feel unsafe about a clearance or instruction that ATC has given. This is a perfect example. The US Air pilots were unable to take off due to safety concerns.
Yes absolutely, and I know a lot of people get mad at delays etc at the airports but if you just stop to think about it a pilot holding off takeoff or aborting landing to circle around could potentially save hundreds of lives. I'd gladly chill on a taxi way awhile if it means we actually get to take off in one piece.
Agreed on not doing what controller said, but its not unable, its is Will Not. You should never forget as a pilot, you hold the ultimate decision. Controller clearly has lost control of the situation and has zero situational awareness. Kudo to both aircraft pilots for putting a halt to things.
Flip is I was once told to do an immediate 360 to the left (approach) and did so. The tower knew where I was and could see situation I could not, so I did. My decision was based on tower had been tracking my reported positions and had awareness I did not have.
@@gregoryschmitz2131 "Will not" is not in the PCG. Is it a non-US thing? Where do you fly?
FAR 91.3 is the reg that gives the PIC the final authority. Every ATP/Commercial pilot already knows this, and should be very situation aware as this Captain was.
@@gregoryschmitz2131 Absolutely not. "Will not" is not proper phraseology and could easily be misunderstood over the radio as "will now" or some other variation. The proper phrase to use is "unable."
I don't understand how the controller can say both that she cannot see anything from the tower AND that she is completely certain they are not near a runway at the same time. How can she possible confirm this? If she's relying on the pilots calling to her to tell her where they are, why is she not listening to them when they are telling her where they are? Does she not think the pilots have to deal with the weather too? That they couldn't have possibly made a mistake and ended up in the wrong spot? Like, what the hell was she even thinking? Terrible professionalism on her part.
The problem is that you're using logic and reason and the controller is a woman. 😊
@@toddsmith8608, back in your hole, troll.
@@tamhiker1of course not, just that women make more
@@TheTuttle99 So what do you want to do about it, buddy?
@@TheTuttle99 source?
They showed great sense in standing firm in their beliefs.... and saved a lot of lives in the process.
Shockingly unbelievable that the United crew told the controller that they were on an actove runway and her response was effectively, "No, you're not!" without having visual or any other confirmation of where the United was. In a system where aircraft position is determined by reporting, to tell a crew they are not where they report they are is beyond comprehension.
I guess the controller thought they were on the runway that was used as a taxiway. Hence, yes on a runway, but not on an active runway...
@@AHBdV I think it was the part where the pilot said "we just heard traffic go over" that she should have been listening to.
@@Plisko1, 'sounds to me like the controller is on one HUGE power trip and her ego won't allow any other information to change her mind. Thankfully the USAir pilots had their heads on straight and refused to listen to her rants.
@@richardcline1337 I'm not sure if power trip is the right description. I pictured her being in some sort of deep focus with all the traffic management and she was so busy trying to move things along that she forgot to listen for signs of confusion in the fog. It's not a good look in either case.
'Ego' on regrettable display.
I love the way the USAir pilot lowkey backed up the United pilots and simultaneously told the controller without coming out and saying "you need to deal with this" told her to deal with it.
Being older, I am now way more pragmatic on following ATC instructions. They are generally correct. But before acting I now literally ask myself, “Am i willing to bet my life on that?”. It forces me to double and TRIPLE check my situation and the positions/movement of others before potentially moving into harm’s way.
Checks and balances because “it’s yours to lose.”
Yes, apparently those pilots weren't willing to bet their life on the ATC being right.
@@CieloNotturno86 Good call.
You can almost hear the pilot mumbling, “I hate it when i’m right.”
@@baomao7243 in the meantime, the other pilots start to be very worried that another plane will crash into them
...and their passengers lives...
I was flying a 767 at the time and can really relate to paper charts and taxiing, especially at night in rain. At certain airports, ORD and JFK come to mind, taxiing was the most intense and difficult part of the flight. London had the best system. You simply followed the taxi way centre line lights that were programmed by the ground controller. "You are cleared to gate (..), follow the lights."
Why is that not standard everywhere. Would make our lives so much easier
@@sklewbecause then the airports would have to spend money and their executives don’t want to miss their Christmas bonuses
There is also a lot of underutilized aerospace talent and industry in the UK.. in the US it would take 10 years and five government contracts just to come up with the detailed development plan
In Italy it would take 25 years!@@enginerdy
@@sklew
Might help a lot of if done right. Been collisions from not be operated correctly and/or not actually marking correctly. Which is crazy.
⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ This is one of the BEST episodes you've made, 74 Gear!!! 👍 The Flight Crew on USAir 2998 are HEROES. No matter what the outcome could have been, they maintain situational awareness and refuses the TO clearance. This is the GOLD STANDARD for all Flight Crews, regardless of 10-9 sheets or electronic solutions. Situational Awareness is just as important for Flight Safety today, as it was back then when this incident occurred. The United Crew also did a good job by simply stopping and reporting when reality clashed with their mental models. They could have fallen into the Confirmation Bias Trap such as the one which lead to tragedy on Linate Airport, Milan, Italy, in October of 2001 with 118 fatalities and 4 injuries.
Agreed!!
12:47 "...Despite the controller making it sound like THEY were the crazy ones."
This applies in so many facets of life. Always do what you feel is right regardless of how others try to make you feel.
Hopefully that controller learned a valuable lesson, realized it's possible for her to be wrong sometimes, and got her ego in check.
A bit of a confession: I was working with a regulator (on the phone) and getting frustrated with the "idiot". He was also getting frustrated with the other "idiot" (me). We finally had a good laugh when we figured out the confusion. I was, as an example, saying "engine" when I meant "gas tank"; therefore, he thought the equipment had two engines and thus would have different requirements. If it had two gas tanks, there's be no change. Prior to that call, ALL of our interactions had been tense. Afterwards, we got along great.
@@gingerhiser7312 Ha! I had a similar interaction once. I was at home and answered the phone. It was a guy from UPS or FedEx. He kept asking for an "appointment number" to make a delivery, and I didn't know what he was talking about. He kept getting more and more frustrated, until I eventually put the pieces together - my parents lived on a street called "Mountain Shadow", and there was also an apartment complex in town called the Mountain Shadow apartments. He thought it was going to the apartments, and he was asking for an apartment number.
Perfectly stated
Easier said than done
This is so true my husband had a very bad infection and his doctor kept saying he was fine and by the time he got to the hospital ER his blood pressure was 50/30 at Mayo Hospital and his surgeon at Mayo never apologized for kept saying that nothing was wrong. He is alive because I didn’t listen to the doctor and took him to the hospital
My late father RCAF and Airline pilot in the 1950’s and 1960’s often spoke about always maintaining good situational awareness. Particularly when flying, but also driving your car, even walking on a sidewalk! He was RCMP in late 1940’s before becoming a pilot. That mantra of having good situational awareness has served me well in my 62 years as a non-pilot. I would say it’s the most important skill a pilot requires. Kudos on the video. 👍
I agree 100% with your dad! Situational awareness is needed by everyone, every day, to stay safe. I bet he would hate to see how most people have zero situational awareness in the 'modern' age of 2024 when I'm writing this. Eyes on a screen 24/7. (I know, I watched this on a screen, but I was sitting in a chair in my home, not driving, walking down a sidewalk, not flying plane, not riding a horse, etc.)
Back when I was training for my instrument rating, flying a Cessna Cardinal RG, it was a day with Santa Ana winds in Southern California (winds blowing out of the desert, so opposite of usual, blowing from the ocean). A lot of the local airports were using runways opposite of normal, so it was a good opportunity to practice shooting unusual approaches. One of them was the localizer back course at Santa Ana (John Wayne Int'l), which is both a GA and commercial airport, the approach is largely over the Catalina Channel (essentially the ocean). So we were approaching from the north, I was wearing an IFR hood, my instructor was visual, looking for traffic. As we were nearing the turn onto the LOC back course, listening in on the approach frequency, we became aware that a commercial jet was also approaching their turn onto the localizer back course from the South. Based on the distances given to the intercept by the controller of both my plane and theirs, our likely speeds, and that the jet was going to be first, my judgement was that I was going to intercept just behind the jet, and be in their wake (and remember since it's a LOC BC, it's a step down approach, with no vertical guidance, and with the winds blowing, the wake would carry into me with less drop). Instead of accepting the instruction to intercept, I asked for permission to do essentially a 270 for spacing. The controller gave attitude but said "approved" and that's what we did. We DID feel turbulence passing through the LOC BC, whether that was the jet's wake or not, I don't know. After we were established on the inbound track, my instructor said to me "I'm impressed you did that, because I could SEE where the jet was and I was going to say something if you didn't."
On the ground in the run up area we discussed situational awareness, the fact that neither of us wanted an upset out over the channel at night (did I mention it was the evening?), and that the controller was likely unaccustomed to the reverse approaches as well. How many times do pilots make choices that might save lives? We weren't going to collide, I'm certain, but my small airplane being flipped upside down by wake turbulence wouldn't have ended well. It was not the first time I would've been slotted in behind a heavier aircraft in Southern California, and I know well that the first thing is that you smell the barbeque (the burnt jet fuel exhaust) a fraction before you get the wake.
Situational awareness is everything.
I was in the pattern in Cessna 150 at Class D airport. The controller asked to me extend my downwind and that he would call my base. From all the radio traffic, I could tell this was to accommodate a jet (kind of get out of the way or get run over situation). What made me laugh is when the controller called my base, he started to explain why he extended the downwind. I laughed to myself, "Yeah, I know. I heard." I guess he forgot we all can hear everything.
I would say situational comprehension, with wiser decisions, is everything.
Love those cardinal RGs. Beautiful airplane. ❤
There are no noise restrictions on departures when they are in that pattern.
This incident was really even worse than how Kelsey showed it. After the refusal of the first take off clearance, the tower cleared US Air to take off again! They once again had to refuse it and insist that the United flight be parked at their gate before they would move. It took a bunch of back and forth between the united flight and ATC to figure out where they were and it became clear how they were in fact in the way.
Holy shit. That's arguably a criminal level of negligence when hundreds of lives are at stake.
I need the rest of this audio. Want to hear how the communication sounded till they resolved everything.
I am really shocked at the ATC's attitude. If I had been any of those pilots I would have filed a formal complaint. The lost craft repeatedly tried to tell the tower they were lost and the ATC repeatedly belittled the pilot because she knew better. With her piss poor attitude & total disregard for the lives of hundreds she should not be in that position, ever.
Did she get fired?
@@JtexyRetrained
W O W! What a career call! Props to those US Air pilots. 300 people had no idea they were going to die that night. Had those pilots in both planes not made the choices and communications they did
This particular incident was covered every year during my airline career recurrent training. It is a cautionary tale about numerous people making mistakes and a smaller number demonstrating good judgment.
Not true.
Do we know each other? Were we in Recurrent Ground together?@@mackwiz1
*Its ALSO about a phenomenon called PERCEPTUAL SET*
Whereby someone believes their understanding is so and never challenges their assumption
Its what that controller did. And it could have had lethal consequences.
When something feels 'wrong' *If you're P1 or P2 always be prepared to 'recalibrate' what you think the picture is*
@@mackwiz1 Prove it
@@Crazy_Dashcam_Videos : How might one disprove a negative position?
I remember when this happened. It was my first few months flying for US. The captain of 2998 was the first captain I flew with on the -200 after OE. He is AWESOME.
Yeah he’s awesome and still alive!
ATC should’ve been fired. Incompetence mixed with arrogance is a dangerous thing.
That's what DEI means
I think retrained, at minimum. An even tone is important. Impatience is not the state of mind you want to be in controlling traffic.
@@colephelps6202 Retraining is not possible. If a ATC can not figure these things out themselves, no retraining will work either. She has to go.
@@amezitroll3670 It wasn't called that in '99 , but you're right.
@@elbuggo I'd say, the risk she does the same again is less than a new controller is doing the same. So for safety, retraining may indeed the better option.
One of the most important skills that a pilot can have is knowing when Not to fly. Cheers to these guys. 🍻
I can say one thing, if I had a pilot insist he was on a runway, I think I’d want to pause and rethink my own blind assumptions.
Yes. Controller was so sure of her assumption she would not consider that she could not see where they were and therefore did not know where they were.
@@richardhole8429 Yes, she was not actively listening.
Right stop all traffic until this guy is safe and returned
As a pilot myself, my take on this is United 1448 at 10:04 advised the controller they were at the intersection of 23R and 16. They didn't guess, they said that is where we are. The controller said 23 was not the active runway but if she thought about it she would have realized that by looking at their charts and the runway holding position sign that they were on 23 and therefore at the other end is active runway is 05. She didn't know any better than 1448 where they were and as it turned they did and she didn't. I am thinking they either were very close to 05/23 or were on 05/23 and the departing air craft passed over them at low altitude for them to feel the jet blast. . Thank God the US Air crew were listening closely to the confusion. The President couldn't have made me takeoff knowing that 1448 had just advised they were on 23. The fkg controller should have been removed on the spot. That's outright both incompetence, lack of situational awareness, and losing her cool.
I appreciate your reminders to the audience that the information we are seeing on our screens are nothing like what they were "seeing" during the incident. Putting yourself into the shoes of the controller, the lost pilots or the US Air team holding short is itself a useful skill to appreciate how simple things can go wrong in the moment, even when they seem obvious in retrospect.
You can hear in tower controller’s voice that she is completely unsuited for that job. I remember this incident at the time. The USAIr pilots were awarded an airmanship award by ALPA. I don’t remember what happened to the tower controller by but I believe she ended up continuing to work in ATC. It’s been my experience that controllers in the USA are fantastic. She is an exception to that experience.
Sounds like confirmation bias. She was dead certain about the situation yet knowing she couldn't see anything. USAir heard that United didn't know. United knew they didn't know. USair knew United didn't know. But tower, oh she knows for sure! The limit on how many "not knowings" going around is enough to do absolutely nothing at that point. A great showing why a sterile cockpit seems like a really great idea
Ding ding ding Correct. I am thinking tossing the wrong burger out a window never killed anybody.
Yes....she just barrelled ahead regardless of the doubt, and very irritated, forecefully urged the US Air to take off. Almost like in the R. Wagner Flying Dutchman opera about the reason for his 7 year curse was he attempted to do a travel maneuver against logic, and his bullheadedness propelled him to make the ill advised maneuver (around the Cape of Good Hope.) He said: "come hell or high water I'm going to do this...." Astonishingly, the KLM pilot that decided to take off in the fog at Tenerife because he was tired of waiting so long (he wasn't cleared for takeoff) was nicknamed The Flying Dutchman. Well, the other 747 was still on the runway, and couldn't be seen due to fog, so......both 747s hit head on. When the other taxing plane saw the KLM barreling down on them on takeoff, he yelled "What's he doing ??? We're still on the runway......he'll kill us all ! " So many similarities to the current video here....fog....being lost, impatience, bullheadedness, etc...
Another quota hire of this controller
@@DaveG-zy5uq Some free advice. Try not to expose your stupidity to the whole world if you can avoid it.
I am obsessed with accident analysis, this is my favorite so far ! The accident that never was. So many great nuggets. People make the difference, those checks and balances :)
Such a smart move to question EVERYTHING. There is nothing equal to "IFR" when taxiing. Planes have a stopping distance similar to trains rather than vehicles once they build momentum so if their path wasn't guaranteed clear, they did an amazing job.
As a junior pilot I had an incident where another aircraft had a severe language barrier. The tower would say to do something and they read it back sort of right, but then did something totally different. This happened several times in a row and it got really scary. The rest of us up there literally had no idea what that aircraft would do next and so all of us (we were in the pattern to land) contacted tower and asked to peel off on dowwind, crosswind, even base. It was chaotic but we all feviated slightly to help the controller clear his airspace to handle a really bad situation.
We were all listening to everything, not just the traffic that pertained to our individual aircraft. That pilot got a deviation and the rest of us got a heartfelt thank you from the tower that day.
It cost me about 15 minutes (plenty of fuel, hours left) but nobody died.
Life is good when everybody pitches in to help out!
Keep that wonderful attitude that you and the controller are on the same team!
The pilot is the final authority in the safety of his aircraft and passengers.
As someone who flew in the 90's, I look back fondly on the old charts, as much as they were a pain to open and follow at times, but I agree with you 74, the level of situational awareness then was much higher than it is today. The technology now is incredible and immensely helpful, but we seemed to have lost something along the way.
That's what engineers said when they stopped using the slide rule !! Those guys NEVER got the decimal point in the wrong place. As an accountant myself I remember old-timers who could add up a column of figures in a ledger faster than anyone today using a calculator.
@mipmipmipmipmip Interesting comment. Van Zenten was born in 1927 and got his private pilot's licence in 1947 ehen he was 20. That was the year that I was born. The Tenerife air disaster was in 1977 when he was 50 years old and had been flying for 30 years. As I was born in 1947 and was 30 years old he had been flying all of my life. He was a highly-skilled pilot with no record of errors that I can see. As I know from over 50 years of driving experience mistakes can happen. The book "Judgment Calls: Making Good Decisions in Difficult Situations" by John C. Mowen provides some interesting examples of human error. One was the shooting down of the Iranian civilian aircraft by the United States.
It annoys me that the ATC keeps making the point that she can’t see so why on earth was she not listening and taking the pilots seriously? Doesn’t seem clever on her behalf and hope that she apologised afterwards
@gantmj what does your comment even mean in regards to the original comment?
Hubris. What's clear to me here is the ATC is supremely and dangerously overconfident. She knows the airport, probably been working there for years, and that contributes to a person feeling like they can't be wrong. Obviously that's a super dangerous attitude for an ATC to have that can't see through the fog.
One of my earliest instructors in the 1970’s taught me to always be aware of what tower is asking you to do rather than just repeating what they say, because it could save your life! This incident is a perfect example of that lesson… exemplified by the US Air crew.
Your reply is incredibly ambiguous.
Amen, I was cleared for a left downwind at SAT 13L which I acknowledged. Next call from Twr was to turn right base from a left downwind. I reminded him I was on a left downwind and rejected the right downwind. Had a good conversation with him after I landed. Situational awareness and sterile cockpits are linked!
Same concept applies to the trucking industry. Ive been sent out in sub par trucks, sent on routes that dont make sense for my weight and dimensions, dispatched while off duty (over hours)…at the end of the day, you’re the captain of you plane/boat/truck, its your life and license, not theirs.
after the pilot told the controller they were at an active runway and the controller told them it wasn't one, I would have been sorely tempted to make a mental note to give the controller a number to call when the situation was sorted out. that or simply say, "well, then an airplane just took off from your taxiway."
The pilots lied. When they asked for permission to cross November they were not at November, they were just making stuff up. How is the controller supposed to know
@@VanquishedAgainYep, found the ATC🤣
@@VanquishedAgain "Lied" is defined by the Merriam-Webster online dictionary to mean "to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive."
However, the United pilots did not attempt to deceive anyone. They were confused about their position and they informed the controller of this.
@@VanquishedAgainthey didn't lie. Bad use of the word. The pilots were lost and confused. They reported a position they thought to be accurate but it wasn't.
@@VanquishedAgainYou keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means.
Awesome example of situational awareness. My father was an Air Force pilot and I can’t tell you how many times we would talk about this concept. Part of dads school of life! Just made my kids watch this. Thank you!
⁷
Modern tech is nice but you need street smarts too. As an old school trucker I used maps and my index cards to navigate. My cards told me a lot -- parking food bathrooms directions to and directions out as these could be two different ways. One time a turned a corner to leave what did I see a whole line of trucks on the side of the road. I pulled over too and walked up to the truck in front of me. Well, it seemed GPS went down since I knew the way out I had a convoy behind me. So people should pay attention to where they are going and what is going on around you. You never know.
Ignoring the lessons learned from Tenerife is astonishing. Thanks for the vid Kelsey
Actually I feel that this was a step forward from Tenerife. Instead of just taking off without clearance, the pilots at the end of the runway decided not to take off, even though they did have clearance. But in Tenerife the ATC knew the Pan Am people were lost and were trying to help.
Kelsey, I love how you tackled this story! I know you've been talking about how you'd like to vary the content you produce, but it occurs to me that you are well-suited to do historical event-based videos, similar to what Petter does in Mentour Pilot. Plus, you add a unique pilot perspective to it, and in your own self-deprecating way, you compare the situations to what you personally have been through and how you've learned from it. Just great work on this, and if possible, I'd love to see more videos like this. Good job, man!
actually Kelseys stories complement the stories of Petter. Kelsey gives us ATC communication and his view (and admitting he made a lot of these mistakes himself), while Petters videos are derived from accident reports.
For an flight enthusiast like me, who is not a pilot, both are very interesting and educational. Two of my favorite channels!
The difference is Kelsey's videos aren't just entertaining or history but instructional. Every video is to teach others to be better pilots
@@stofflsSure, I agree with you; I never meant to imply that their content is identical, only that doing commentary on historical incidents was something both creators do very well, in their own style.
Women...
I can understand the confusion on the controllers part right up to one point. The point where the United reported in that a plane just took off right over or infront of them is when the controller should have woken up. Reporting such a thing isnt exactly a position report, its an observation of something dangerous that just occured, snapping back at the pilot to say 23L isnt an active runway just shows that she didnt hear or ignored the report of a loud jet taking off right infront of them.
The controller knows what plane she just cleared to take off, she knows what other planes are taking off since I presume this airport only had 1 active runway at the time. A pilot calling in to say let her know that they dont know where they are, they think they are at an active runway and a plane just took off over or right next to them should have been enough for the controller to snap out of her assumption mode and assess the situation better.
I was in my early teens when my Mom was a CFI and FAA designated examiner. One of the first women. She gave me the task of changing the pages in her Jeppsson manuals when the stack of new pages came in. At the time i didn’t know the differences but later when she flew me through 100 % ifr towards a landing at minimums at then one runway Orange County Airport that i realized the importance. I think that was the most concentrated i have ever seen a human being then or to this day 60ish years later. Never scared, just focused 100% plus on situational awareness thanks Mom for everything!!!!
Yeah, and what about a child changing your Jeppeson pages...
I remember situations like this from flying with my Dad in our Cessna 182. He had a commercial license and was instrument rated, but he didn't fly professionally. I used to help him update his Jeppsen manuals and navigate around new airports, so I know how easy it is to get turned around. I think the biggest lesson he taught me is that the pilot in command is in charge. This is a perfect example of Dad's wisdom.
The pilot in command and the copilot are in charge. In a healthy cockpit, they both are in charge.
@@Thundersnowy Negative! The PILOT is called Pilot in command. He and he (she) alone is in charge of the airplane!
I don't think it is my "elderly sentimental memory" but there is, in modern generations, a general laxness in diligence and accuracy in every occupation, not just aviation.
I tested for a data entry job when I was in my early 20s. You had to be fast and accurate, and my accuracy was 97% so I didn't pass. I've seen such inaccuracies in this area that I'm sure they no longer have this requirement.
The required test to become a mail carrier used to be terribly stringent, but based on our neighborhood's "redivery rate" I'd guess it isn't anywhere near as stringent.
You see this relaxed attitude just in automobile traffic. People running red lights, rear ending cars from inattention, etc.
People just aren't generally situationally aware as much, and too impatient to be careful and accurate.
Think about the aerospace industry in the 1960s and all those calculations done BY HAND! We never would have made it to the moon with today's standard of accuracy.
@@MikeM275 The "Pilots" are both the pilot monitoring and the pilot flying
@@Freezorgium ?? Not sure your point here. Yes they are both pilots. But only ONE pilot is PIC (Pilot in command) of an airplane. Not both as was incorrectly stated above.
Thinking it’s just going to “work out” is a very real phenomena that occurs in all walks of life. It takes a lot of discipline to be prepared to be embarrassed or criticized to do the right thing sometimes.
I worked as a baggege handler for 19years with USAIR/ USAIRWAYS. Best job and Co-workers anyone could wish for. Miss it everyday!!! Proud to see our Pilots made a great call...❤
As a controller, you do develop a sense when somethings not right. This controller ignored the warning signs... a pilot saying they're not where they think they should be. Thankfully the USAir pilot picked up on it and did the right thing and waited.
As a passenger who watches and listens, I can't believe what controllers are expected to be able to do, or how they can keep doing their jobs without suffering extreme burnout before the end of each shift. Set them up for success, and they do the heavy lifting well.
You have to remember that back in '99, there was no social media. Such recordings were not sought after. I'm sure if we actually went to the archives we could find quite a few instances like this where ATC acted like complete bags of garbage.
Likewise, you will find instances where pilots were unprofessional. They didn't have good CRM back then either.
False, MySpace and Facebook both existed as well as IRC, multiple IMs, message boards, and forums. Saying social media didn't exist in 1999 is blatantly false and you likely weren't even born then or still in diapers. Facebook was a DARPA program called Lifelog which coincidently stopped the same day "Facebook" was official but the web site was invite only for 4-5 years until the name change.
You are right that there was no social media. You are very wrong that "such recordings were not sought after."
@@akronyay oh yeah? How so? This should be interesting. 😏
@@longfade If I want anything from you, I'll ask you for some bad fashion tips.
As a passenger, landing at MacCarron in Las Vegas after (it turns out) a long weather delay, our plane did a sudden climb above the threshold and went around as another plane passed under us landing on the crossing runway. Everybody had GPS's. It still comes down to situational awareness and deprioritizing the airline stuff like gate schedules, connections, etc.
A single, huge, word to compliment that crew's attitude: Airmanship.
It should be remembered that, in 1991, a USAir flight landed on a Skywest flight that was still on the active runway at LAX killing 23. It was due to ATC error.
Just bc they’ve cleared you doesn’t mean they aren’t trying to kill you…. I always assume both ground and tower are actually trying to take me out. Double check both ways when cleared to taxi across runways. Identify and verify the assigned runway - and check no one landing downwind. They work long shifts and make mistakes.
I work tower at a heavily fogged airport in Norway, and we have clear LVP procedures to have only one vehicle moving on the AoR for the given frequency during heavy fog, even though we have ground radar. This is to ensure no situations like this actually causing an incident.
Great call by the US Air pilot and for staying so situationally aware. This is a perfect example of why sterile cockpit is important even during taxi.
I was flying back then, and those paper airport diagrams required extreme attention at some airports like that one even during the day and in good weather. At night and in poor weather, you just see a maze of taxiway and runway lights that can be confusing. The United acft was far from the first to make a mistake like that.
Unfortunate that people are mocked cq. pressured to not being professional. Great on that pilot!
I was involved in a very similar situation in Alaska in the late 80s. There was an airport vehicle lost on the airfield at night, in the fog.
The vehicle was in contact with the tower, but obvious had missed turns twice. This was prior to the ground radar system that exists now.
ATC called a ground stop, and luckily had some time before the next arrival. ATC ordered the state vehicle to simply stop, hold their position and wait for an escort vehicle to come out and lead them back to ramp area.
The vehicle was being operated by a high level member of the airport staff, and suffice it to say, he wasn’t happy. A controller who was primarily concerned with safety, and being forceful helped avoid a potential accident. (Not caring about the driver’s ego or pride)
I personally don't like to point fingers of blame on these videos because I view them as learning opportunities to broaden my understanding and perspective regarding various aviation scenarios. In this case, I feel both the Untied and US Air flight crews did an exceptional job of communicating with the tower while holding their respective positions which prevented what could have been a very catastrophic accident. Kelsey, your interpretation of the comms from a pilots viewpoint are priceless!!
If you want to learn from this you are going to have to look at who's to blame or am I missing something? Pointing fingers is a good thing to do. You want to be a liberal and be nice to everyone doesn't work. People need to be told what they do wrong in many situations. Yes the truth might hurt. But the more it stings the more it sticks 😉 This is not a playground.
It was so important for United to say, I’m on an active runway, regardless of how dumb being there sounded or was!
As a retired controller I can say this is shown to every new controller that comes in the building of my last place. I didn’t work at providence but I worked with someone that was working in that tower at the time.
One thing I learned while Paragliding was the concept of Airmanship. And that good Airmanship is not only about technical skills but also situational awareness and decision making. And that the decision not to fly is also part of good Airmanship.
I fly out of PVD. That controller sounds like the cranky one we have there. Last week she was clearance delivery and ground. I called for clearance. No reply after about 30 seconds. No traffic on the radio. I called again. She replied " Sorry you are impatient and couldn't wait 30 seconds." My CFI and I were shocked ( I am IFR Training).
Just reply with "We're going to give you a number to call." That should shut her up 😃
I haven’t had a run in with her but I’ve heard her get snippy with others before. Lucky to fly out of there since they’re one of the few places with an DME Arc approach.
The funniest exchange I’ve ever caught was just north of there in OWD. A pilot said “thank you ma’am” after picking up his craft… well clearance, ground, and tower were all being run by the same person… who is very much a man. I was dying laughing when he asked for his taxi / take off clearances each time only to be met with the same controller who was clearly annoyed. 😂😂😂😂
Keep it totally professional. When you hear her voice, turn on the "USAir 2998 pilots keeping their cool" mode. If you fly out of PVD frequently, you want the ATC to be thinking, "wow, that pilot makes my job easier."
@@someguyontheinternet7165would it be funnier if he said “thank you man” and just mispronounce and/or heard wrong due to radio
I doubt she is still there. If you have a problem with a controller ask them for their operating Initials and a time hack and tell them to tell their supervisor to secure the recording. Then ask for a phone number for the facility and file a complaint.
Discretion is the better part of valor. Everyday heroes just might be the people who know that what they don’t know, could kill them. Well done.
Prudence as I like to say
And all those riding behind them.
Thank you for sharing this. The PanAm/KLM disaster at Tenerife in the 1970s was caused by fog and a taxiing plane on an active runway and some communication problems between ATC and the pilots. We salute the USAir pilots for their prudence which avoided another disaster.
You're being too generous to the KLM captain.
Watching this video absolutely sent shivers down my spine. There are several memories I have as a kid that even today are as fresh in my mind as if they were yesterday. One of those is the Tenerife Airport Disaster in '77. I may only have been 8 at the time but I vividly remember the news reports coming through and also subsequently read up on what happened. Hearing Kelsey describe this incident showed some of the similarities and who knows what would have happened if those pilots hadn't simply stopped and exercised some patience and caution!
My aunt and uncle died in that crash. I was about the same age and remember staying up all night watching news reports with my family. They were scrolling survivor names.
My understanding is that the Tenerife disaster was a result of the captain of one plane being very dominating, to the extent that while several in the crew knew it was not ok to enter the runway, they were unwilling to speak up.
As a result, the emphasis has been changed, so all crew members are expected to speak up if they feel anything is not right.
@@rickcollins2814 That was a large part of the cause for sure, but the foggy weather and lack of situational awareness was another. In this instance, it was the ATC who was being (or trying to be) domination as well as having lost that crucial situational awareness. I wonder if this had happened in the 70's what the result would have been regarding the pilots not backing down to the ATC.
@@rickcollins2814 Yes, KLM's chief 747 flight instructor and chief pilot (yes, they still had that title back then) Jacob Veldhuyzen Van Zanten was the captain who took off without a clearance despite repeated queries from his first officer (Klaas Meurs), and the fact that they knew another aircraft was back-taxiing and struggling to find the correct exit to allow him to rejoin. That other aircraft was actually the first 747 to be delivered to an airline - Pan Am - and had made the first commercial 747 flight. Even during the takeoff roll, when the Pan Am aircraft (Clipper 1736) was instructed by ATC to report when the runway is clear, and had replied "OK, we will report when we're clear" and Van Zanten's Flight Engineer (Willem Scheuder) had given a further warning, Van Zanten continued, and killed himself along with 582 others, including all on his aircraft and most on Clipper 1736 (which had 61 survivors out of 396 on board.
Van Zanten was the last of the old-school training captains who held that the 1st officer was there to learn to be a captain and the flight engineer was someone who failed flying school, but only the captain's opinion mattered, and he was always right. He himself provided the perfect reasoning for the end of that school of thought and the introduction of Crew Resource Management through the industry (KLM were the last hold-out in Europe, IIRC, and that was very much Van Zanten's responsibility.
KLM delayed any comment on the collision for several hours trying to get the opinion of their Chief Pilot, before realised he was the captain involved.
They eventually accepted full responsibility for the collision (after a lengthy fight though - they even issued their own version of the accident investigation).
I was glued to the news as it came out, particularly as my grandparents had just returned from a holiday in Tenerife.
Many changes came about, not just to the way aircrew work together. Radio calls were made much tighter and specific words were prohibited except in the very specific circumstance which called for them - takeoff being the first and most obvious. You may say you are ready (or not) for departure, but NEVER for takeoff.
@@Michelle-xm6no That must've been tough - 61 names (eventually), hoping and praying that more would be added out of 644.
This guy’s stories are EPIC.
Every one of them.
Great instructional video. While working on my Comm Instr my CFI who was also an aircrew man on a P3 and I were heading back to the home airport from HNL, a red star field at the time. It was just before dusk. We had been cleared to taxi on runway and hold. We got the clearance to t/o and started to roll when all we could hear was our call sign and a controller screaming abort, abort, abort. We did without a second thought. Maybe a couple of seconds later a NW Orient 747 passed directly overhead with minimal clearance. Four pilots and a controller breathed a huge sigh of relief that was audible. The 747 went around, we were released for t/o and headed home. Known for his calm under fire approach to life in general, my CFI (the second one to utter basically the same words) said, "my wife would've hated being such a young widow," with a big grin. Just another day in naval aviation.
It amazes me that more people don't get hurt or die on a daily basis, simply because they are not paying attention to their surroundings. I have trained myself to be aware of my surroundings at all times. I work in manufacturing plants, and on machines and locations i don't know, as i am only at a site for a day or two at most. There's so much stuff around that can hurt, maim, or straight up kill you.
And yet i see people walking with their head in their cell phone, headphones in, not paying attention. It boggles the mind, it truly does.
Situational awareness is for everybody. It's your own health and life you are protecting. And, if you have a family, your family as well. Especially children, they have no concept of how dangerous the world truly is.
On the airport diagram graphics, such as the one at 3:52, I would recommend that the aircraft be colored in a contrasting way so that they could be quickly seen. The gray-colored airplanes do not really stand out very well, and since the graphics are only up for a few seconds, it takes time to locate them on the screen. Maybe if the planes were colored green, red, or yellow, then they would stand out and be easier to spot.
I love the videos, Kelsey!
I agree but maybe it's on purpose to make us as confused as the pilots were? Idk
Obviously, the US Air pilot was awesome that day. He did what any airline pilot should've done in that situation. What astonishes me about the events is that ATC didn't have any procedure in place to verify the location of planes on their field before clearing another plane for takeoff, knowing they can't see anything from the tower. She instructed 1448 to notify her after crossing runway 16, but she doesn't wait for them to do so before she just assumes the active runway is clear. This extremely dangerous situation is all created by the ATC, and is not the fault of the 1448 pilots. It's simply unacceptable that ATC would give runway clearances completely blind and not knowing if the runway is actually clear. And because ATC is the federal government, we'll never know if there was any accountability or lessons learned.
I was repositioning a CRJ900 and was told I could cross the active runway. I looked up and saw a planes landing lights on final approach. I told the controller that I couldn’t go due to the landing aircraft. She nearly had a heart attack and told me to hold position. When I got to the terminal she asked me to call her cell phone. She fell all over herself apologizing. Scary night for me.
This only worked out because everyone was on the same frequency and speaking the same language. That so often isn't the case, which could easily lead to disaster. If the lost aircraft had been on a ground frequency or had been speaking a local language, the other pilots would have had no idea.
Thats the scary bit right
I'm not a commercial pilot, but I'm fairly sure that all aircrew and ATC use English regardless of where they operate in the world.
@@pauldarlington5589 No, they don't. They are required to be able to use English, but they don't always do so. Local pilots will often speak the local language.
@@pauldarlington5589 Paul yes correct a universal requirement but not a legal one or by regs. Local language is favoured in non-english countries (and overall is safer) but dialect / poor English enunciation is the v biggest problem in the room. Freighting into smaller non-english airports can be a real challenge at times.
Long ago the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) made English the standard civil aviation language. "ICAO requires that language skills of pilots and controllers rated at Level 4 are reassessed every three years, Level 5 pilots and controllers - every six years, while at Level 6, no further assessment of English language skills is deemed necessary."
I love how unbothered by the controller the US Air crew sounds. "Nope, we're not doing it, and we do not give a flying flip if you don't like it."
More people need to be like those pilots.
It depends on the situation. Stockton Rush, being a case in point.
@Smithpolly Sure. But imagine if the launch team for STS-51-L had the guts to tell the politicians, "No, we're not launching today. It's too cold and the SRBs won't seal properly. We don't care about your threats or that the State of The Union is tonight, this is too reckless and you're eventually going to kill some astronauts if we keep launching in the cold."
Because remember, they knew about the o-ring issue from other cold-weather flights.
@@vicroc4 As I said , it depends on the situation.
He probably had sisters and recognized the problem.
@@alanmacification LOL. 😂😂 LUV It..
ROTFL. Yeh, I had a sister and a Mum that were never wrong.
A horrible situation for everyone involved to have experienced (including the air traffic controller). From what I presume, three things emerged from this:
1. Nobody got hurt.
2. Many got to hear about it, and therefore it was able to provide a valuable lesson.
3. This event scenario can now be used time and time again to train and teach others involved in aircraft movement and aircraft management operations.
Thanks for this video and the commentary. It is really appreciated.
you only need to look at what happened on the runway with flights 4805 (KLM) & 1736 (PAN AM) on the spanish island of tenerife on a unusually fog bound day in march 1977. 583 passengers and crew were killed due to aircraft and tower mis-communications and an impatient KLM pilot. the high number of fatalities was down to the fact it was two fully loaded 747's. so kudos to these pilots who probably saved a lot of lives that night. and great video again !
Hey, Kelsey! Thank you so much for all that you share. It is fascinating, and most appreciated! ✈️
This is a unique situation and an incredibly good example of how easily things can go very wrong. Literally EVERY pilot knows what happened at Tenerife. My guess is that's what went through the heads of the US Air pilots when they made their call. It takes at least some courage to counter ATC like that, which fortunately most pilots have.
I work in heartsurgery, and as part of our training at one educational meeting we had ABC news aviation correspondent carfully go through the Tieneriffe accident, and analyze it from a resource management training angle. It was very helpful that you should speak up when there are concerns.
@@PlateletRichGel can you kickstart my heart?
At the end its always that deep inner gutt feeling that saves the day.
Every experienced pilot, ship captain and train engineer, truck/bus driver can tell you such stories.
Its remarkable how we humans can "bond" with a machine and become a team..
9:15 my university professor touched on this same topic by explaining the “5 LEVELS OF COMPETENCE”
1 - unconscious incompetence - where you are oblivious to how much you don’t know
2 - conscious incompetence - you’re still not capable, but are aware of how little you actually know
3 - conscious competence - with focus, you can achieve your task
4 - unconscious competence (the ideal) - where you’ve gotten good enough at something it’s almost second nature
5 - unconscious INDIFFERENCE (the dangerous) - where you’ve gotten so routine at things you start to exhibit a lack of care and don’t think about things properly.
That the other pilots declined to takeoff til issue resolved and we’re paying attention is a prime example of this :)
From my observations 1. is the most prevalent right now. Too many people think googling qualifies them as a brain surgeon.
About a year ago I started watching “Mayday” the air crash investigation show and when I did I thought, “This might be how you get yourself a fear of flying.” I have to say the opposite has happened. The amount of thorough detail they go through to learn what went wrong and how to avoid the problem in the future has absolutely made flying safer. Of course technology has helped too. When I was a kid in the 80s it seemed like there was a major crash every year or two. As it stands now, (knocking on wood) we haven’t had a crash since 2009 and that was a smaller plane in Buffalo. If this were still the 70s, 80s, or 90s we’d have had at least 5-7 big incidents in a 14 year stretch.
That’s anywhere between 300-1200 people that are alive because of the work that goes into studying mishaps and accidents. Total respect and appreciation for any and all doing that work
You are probably right about that. I think the technology more than anything.
I was a kid in the 40s --- think of the tech at that time. Seemed to me that there was a major incident every month !
I see you have not heard about the 737MAX...
I've become slight obsessed with that show. Flight safety is truly built on the blood of those who came before us. The show makes me feel so much safer to fly.
I'm a physician. Medicine has learned some from flight safety, but we need to take a much deeper dive into many of these practices!
@@robertjackson5412Much of the technology was developed in response to what was learned from the accident analysis.
“Ma’am I’m trying to tell you that we are on an active runway! We just had a plane take off right in front of us!”
Controller: I can’t see anything from the tower.
Also controller: “That first plane is nowhere near the runway guys, even though they just insisted and I can’t see anything. Clear for takeoff.”
That woman’s attitude could have killed so many people.
Watching some of your videos, getting ready to turn off the tv when this one came on. It immediately caught my interest so had to watch it. Instantly brought back memories of the accident in DTW, Dec 3rd, 1990.
Scanning through a lot of comments, but it looks like no one else mentioned it. Similar weather conditions. A DC-9 crew (NW1482) was redirected while taxiing in fog. They became disoriented, ending up on an active runway. The situation became critical and ATC told them (something to the effect of get off that runway immediately). Meanwhile a B727 (NW299) was already on his take off roll. I believe that the DC-9 crew started to turn left onto the grass when the 3-holer's R/H wing tore through the R/H side of the DC-9's fuselage opening it up like a can opener, from cockpit to tail, right about window level or just above. I saw the DC-9 in the hangar a few days later; not a pretty sight. Bad situation. I'm sure that the controller would have called for a ground stop, but it happened so fast.
They cover this incident in Tower class at the FAA Academy. The video replay and charts used there show the UAL plane well over the hold short line and possibly even nosing into the runway. It's amazing how arrogant and aggressive the ATC gets when she can't see anything. And, as is customary, she is now a safety representative or manager of some kind. I guess it ultimately humbled her massively when she went back and saw the full picture.
I remember that training and came here to give this exact comment. If I remember the training correctly, it was really only dumb sheer luck that the FedEx missed them (because airborne), and a solid possibility that the USAir wouldn't have.
That means that one ATC controller got suspended for a few days. If the ATC can't see the planes, what the heck then giving them clearance to take off?? Absolute Bravo to the pilots for just standing still till everything gets worked out.
@@alanwalker4520 ATC always will give takeoff clearances in ultra-low visibility, when they can't see the runways. Fog can't shut down the whole system. The problem was this controller was WAAAAY too confident that the plane was not where they said they were, which is really arrogant of her to just assume the pilots were wrong.
"I guess it ultimately humbled her massively . . . "
That's the part I was waiting to hear, some kind of humility or realization to occur. The video really left us hanging.
Doubtful. Too many women can't admit when they're wrong (not even to themselves), and I've seen (and experienced) too many of them for whom power absolutely went to their heads.
Not that men can't be the same way, but almost nobody is surprised by that. We don't expect women to be that way, but I've seen it in the military, in private industry, and especially in the public sector.
It's so crazy to me that someone can get hired as a controller if they're that impatient, even on a zero visibility foggy night and when pilots are unquestionably confused about where they are.
@@Wisdom-Nuggets-Tid-Bits It's been 25 years since this recording, so I don't think it says much about how things are today 😆
She made me so angry for those poor pilots. I'd have told her "WE MAY BE ON AN ACTIVE RUNWAY YOU FOOL - ARE YOU PAYING ATTENTION - HELLO? ANYONE HOME?!" 👀😏
Must have MVR in federal workforce. min. vag levels
Things happen when Reagan fired all the staff during a strike.
Never ever forget you are working with humans.
In aviation most anyone tries to perform flawless, but there is no such thing as a flawless humen being. ATC world wide sadly ever more often work under heavier workloads than planned, resulting in higher stress levels than even the most down to earth people can completely absorb without dropping a single stitch.
So when you hear of something like this, before pointing a finger, quietly appreciate the fact that it means you're not the only one making mistakes.
I agree with you. The crew that simply said, Okay. But they stayed put until the thing was sorted out, are the heroes of this story.✅👏
The United 1448 / ATC communication was one of the primary examples we had when we brought Crew Resource Management training to my IT teams in Germany. This was great CRM and communication by the US Air crew.
I used this foul up as an example in airport operations when I taught ground school. Important to the incident was the old taxiway layout. If you look at the layout at 3:13, that's the new layout. The old layout had a V shaped split at what's label HS3; one branch crossed 16/34 and the other crossed 5R/23L. The United plane was on the one that crossed 5R with it's nose over the runway.
It finished up the United plane taxied across the active and made 2 lefts onto 16/34.
BTW, after re-training, this controller was transferred to approach control. After paling this video 40 times, I recognized her voice.
Well, she IS Union so there's no way, short of an act of God Himself, that anyone could really do anything to her. One of the worst ego trips I've ever heard anyone be on!
Well yeah, she couldn't possibly cause a severe accident from approach control.
Did her attitude improve because she comes off as someone who shouldn't be relied upon to keep lives safe.
A Good Judge , along with a good Prosecutor might have resulted in a Cell approach And landing for the Negligent Tower controller.
After reading many of the comments, i am astonished that she was not either Prosecuted And Or Fired.
The Pilot's + Passenger's along with THEIR AIRCRAFT were Saved by Professional Pilot's + The Grace Of GOD.
As I mentioned in my Original Comment, i Believe, that the Pilot's had a Legal Duty to Report this Event to The FAA And to The Airport Management.
The Pilot's were correct to return to a gate to Report to their Management, who would assist The Pilot's in Reporting the Event in Accordance with the Rules + Proper Safety Follow Up with The FAA + The Airport Management.
When i wrote my Original Comment, i had not yet read the comments of any other Commentator's.
It Appears from the Intelligent Replying Commentator's, that we are in Agreement.
Every Life is IMPORTANT. These Pilot's as well as Saving their Passenger's Lives + All Pilot's + Crew...these intelligent Pilot's possibly also Saved that Tower Controller Life that Night... The Guilt that would result after being Responsible for the lost of Human Lives would cause the Tower Controller to suffer serious Consequences. Traffic Controllers suffer a large number of people who burn out or controllers who drink too much Alcohol...rendering the Controller unfit for the job as Controller.
The Tower Controller on Duty on the recording was clearly Negligent. Frankly, i would not willingly fly into any Airport in fog conditions, if i knew she was on Duty.
It is my belief, if ALL The Affected Pilot's made The Report's to the FAA + The Airport Management, then she would be removed. That is the purpose of making Complaint's to The FAA + to The Airport Management. Then, after Official Investigation, and, after listening to the Audio Recording's from The AIRCRAFT + the Audio Recording's from the Tower, appropriate Decision's would result. Safety for AIRCRAFT, Passenger's + Crew including each of the Pilot's is the reason for Review's, FAA Investigation's, And, for Official Pilot's Formal Incidents Report's.
The Fact that if the Controller was incompetent, Then that person should not remain a Tower Controller!
Yes, I Am An International Lawyer. Yes, i Believe, that the controller was unfit to be in such a responsible position of Tower Controller.
I’m just a passenger. If my pilot calls for assistance I expect the tower to assist. “I don’t know” are my favorite words until you give life threatening instructions right after saying it. A simple, ok pilot, describe where you are and what you see so I can direct you. She made a mistake by being complacent. 5 minutes doesn’t seem too much.
It's cool that older records are available for analysis like this. That's really impressive on the part of the US Air pilot. It really is easy to trust everything is working as intended and just stay in your own bubble of operations.
Perhaps, but the reason they are pilots is because they know to trust their own decisions. No pilots take the job half-cocked.
Reminds me of back-up cameras on cars. ... Soon nobody will know how to reverse a car without them.
Good video. 👍
I see plenty of people who cannot back up WITH the cameras!
i do have a back-up camera, but I feel more comfortable with the mirror. I am so used to seeing a mirrored image, and the camera feed is not mirrored :)
you use both...create a scan, side mirror, back up camera, side mirror. Using both creates more situational awareness than one or the other.
It's great for precision parking tho. Seeing curbs and crap. Angry sign post also, just waiting to smack the car to pieces which they tend to do for some reason because some angry municipal employee places them at the exact wrong spot to spite drivers
It’s worth mentioning that ATCs can have an attitude of omnipotence. It’s an ego trip being in charge or thousands of tons of heavy jets, and whether they’re willing to admit it or not, they develop tunnel vision to keep planes moving. If anything stops that they can get downright surly. Speaking from experience…..
During my Air Force career, there were several times during severe fog, where we would either tow an aircraft out to the runway for takeoff, or tow an aircraft off the runway after landing, since it was too foggy to taxi.
How is the tug operator in any better position to see where they are going?
@@driftlesstrekker4709they're closer to the ground.
@@stephenp448 but yet the airport is still above minimums?
@@driftlesstrekker4709 that depends. When you're taking off, you don't have to read the signs identifying the runway as you zip by. There are legal visibility minimums for taking off, but I'm not sure how much that would apply to the military. After all, if you have a potentially hostile aircraft approaching your airspace, you aren't going to not intercept them because it's foggy.
@@driftlesstrekker4709 A CAT IIIb approach can have visibility requirements as low as 150ft, with no decision height. The military also has an obvious interest in being able to operate in absolutely all conditions possible.
They 100% made the right call. Nothing worse than making a certain call in an uncertain situation if that call will lead to disaster if you are wrong, and all doing the opposite will cost you is a bit of time. Which by the way is what the ATC did in the wrong direction.