Mayday Aircraft Asked to Hold
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- Опубликовано: 20 апр 2024
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"Mayday mayday mayday."
"Are you declaring an emergency?"
"Is this your first day as an ATC?"
Another example of FAA being different to international standard ICAO phraseology.
i mean ATCs sometimes ask just to confirm, have seen it multiple times on other channels. better to ask twice rather than once and get it wrong
Maybe ATC would have been better phrasing it back. "I heard you call Mayday, can you confirm the nature of your emergency and ...." That way you confirm it and don't look like you weren't listening. Much like how pilots read back instructions. I'd prefer to hear ATC use the same phrase rather than declaring an emergency. If ATC hears an emergency is prefer they confirm it with are you calling a Mayday? That's what I'd do on Ham radio which uses the phrases Mayday and Pan Pan distress and urgency.
I work in healthcare and had a major emergency declared to me last week for the first time in a 15 year career. I did a bit of a double take and asked to confirm. I passed it on down the procedure of all the different people I had to inform who have their own emergency procedures, and some of them did the same. We have emergencies every day, just not "major" emergencies. Those are normally reserved for CBRN attacks.
@@magical_catgirl mayday is as old or even older than ICAO itself existing.
Kelsey recording this video after being kidnapped and held in an abandoned warehouse? Blink three times if you need us to send the A-Team
I think that's his sex dungeon
And snacks.
We should send him some free breakfast
If he defends the tower and blames the pilot, you'll know it's bad!
(this is a joke, btw! I know he calls it like he sees it!)
@@nuuukethewhales In case the A-Team needs more time to free Murdock first.
As an ARFF Firefighter (Airport Rescue & Fire Fighting) I can tell you a controllers main reason for asking for fuel load in a none low fuel emergency is for us. Our truck carry between 1500 and 3000 gallons of water. We can convert to foam via a foam concentrate we mix into the water. The more fuel you have the more foam we will need if your fuel tanks rupture. We use foam even in the absence of fire because it floats in the leaking fuel and keeps it from being able to ignite. Us knowing how much fuel is onboard gives us that heads up to calculate if we have enough resources. Hours of fuel does not tell us the actual volume because we don’t know the aircraft consumption rate. We have ti have it in pounds or gallons for our calculations. Food for thought for pilots who give it in hours.
So what you're saying is... both?
See that's what I originally thought and then Kelsey said it was for Time so I was like "yeah I can see that" but I always thought it was for the guys on the ground.
If the controller wanted "time" they could use the term endurance.
Thing is about the fuel the damaged engine may be using more fuel or even leaking
@@pollysims6040or no fuel if it's shut down 🙄
Task saturation kills pilots. As a fellow long haul captain, this conversation needs to happen, in earnest much more often. Keep it coming brother.
Yes, would have felt better about it if ATC had asked the pilot whether he wanted to hold or have vectors. I really like it when the controller makes it clear to a pilot in an emergency that he can go where he needs to, in his discretion. Obviously this pilot could have asked the controller for vectors and I don't think there would have been any problem with that, both the controller and the pilot handled this very well and stayed very calm.
Being able to call the shots in an emergency is basically a concept of safe harbor in Maritime law. Only one of them was up in the air and I guess that underscores the concept of safe harbor when in an emergency. In those circumstances, let the pilot have the discretion regarding when he needs to land and where he needs to land. Glad this one ended well.
I love how Kelsey says, "No one is freaking out on the flight deck." As a passenger, I certainly hope that's true, but we don't know that for sure.
14:44 "That may not be procedure, but neither is hitting the mountain." 😂 My kind of humor.
Came here to say this. I heard this, lol'ed, and thought, ah, there's Kelsey. Happy Sunday.
Seriously, not a traditional landing
Going to make that a normal saying
After landing the desk pilots will censure him for not following procedures.
I think Boeing may be using that as an option now.
From VASAviation’s videos I’ve learned that if pilots say fuel in pounds they get asked for time, and if they give it in time they get asked for pounds, and if they give it in both they get asked for it in pints.
Yep, controllers need to know if they got enough time to get to the airport, but rescue crew needs to know how much fire potential to deal with. Both are important.
...and if they give it in pints, they will ask it in Star Trek standard measuring units. Twice.
And in this case, the controller was likely aware that they had just taken off and had enough fuel to get to a destination. Further, in this case, the risk wasn't running out of fuel, but running out of engines to burn the fuel.
Couldn't they get the stewardesses tell passengers whats happening if passengers really want to know from start 3spevially if experienced passengers say theve turned an engine off regular passengers can proberly tell so nervous fliers are proberly on edge anyway
Pints 😂
In the mid 80s my father was flying alone for the DEA in the middle of the night on the way home from a mission when a piston ejected through the hood. He was told to stand by after declaring mayday multiple times until he eventually crash landed in a field. Never was able to communicate with tower. He survived but was knocked unconscious, seat belt caught so hard he had to get stitches in his chest. He was a legend!
Many years ago we lost an outboard engine on takeoff from Lajes field, Azores. We were in a KC130 bagged out with 65 thousand pounds of fuel. Once we’d shut down the engine and started to dump fuel and barely having positive rate of climb, we declared Mayday and came around to land but were directed to extend our down wind for a P-3 that was in the pattern doing touch and goes. Got to love it.
You had three more engines though... 😂
@@wg100
At that weight you really need all four and being heavy and low and slow it is truly an emergency.
Good grief!!!
Too bad no air-to-air capability :)
If this young man flies a 747 … he’s a Captain?!
We must appreciate that Kelsey left his nice hotel and brought all of his recording equipment and stood in an abandoned building just to tell us about this!
Didn't even waste time covering the broken window!
For the drama 😊
Read my thoughts exactly
Looks to me, like Kelsey has recorded himself then added that backdrop.
You know Captain Kelsey, he was out checking to see if there were any of his favorite snacks to be had amongst the homeless population.
From the European ATC perspective I don't agree with what You said about fuel.
If we ask for "fuel on board", we want the kilograms or tonnes. The only purpose of that information is to pass it to the firefighters. Since it is you, who have the emergency, we don't need to know how long CAN You fly. We want to know how long you WANT to fly. If you need immediate return, you will get it. If you need 10 minutes for the checklist, you will get it. If you need 2 hour for fuel burning You will get it.
If we need to know how long you can fly there's an other word in phreseology: "endurance". "Report endurance" - the answer must be in minutes/hours. And we rarely would use that in an emergency. It happens in "weather situations. Or in our unit's case - with military traffic, which has diffrent fuel regulations. They come back to land with much lower endurance remaining than commercial planes.
Well said. It sounds like European controllers better at knowing and sticking to standard procedures and phraseology, possibly necessitated my the greater amount of international traffic involved.
I also tend to think this is true in the US as well. ATC may be more concerned with time remaining, but ARFF is going to want the fuel in volume or weight (gallons or pounds in the US), so they have an idea of how much flammable liquid is on board as they approach the aircraft.
Also, I think when a plane just took of from your airport and then declares an emergency and wants to return, and the emergency is not "hey we see we forgot to take on fuel and we are almost out of it!!!", it seems very unlikely that endurance is going to be an issue. So why bother asking for it?
That's my understanding as well.
After all, by definition, a Mayday is a "land ASAP" situation. So that's what ATC will help to achieve. What ASAP is will be defined solely by the flight crew.
@@123goodoldmusic Basically, when a pilot declares an emergency, they call the shots. They inform ATC of what they are GOING to do, it is NOT a request. After an emergency has been declared ATCs job switches to ensuring that everyone else is out of the way and that required emergency services are at the ready.
"You might have to let the engine burn, which isn't part of procedure...but neither is hitting the mountain"....LMAO you always unintentionally crack me up @74 Gear!
Hi, Im a 787 Captain and my son is an Air Traffic Controller and a commercial pilot. First, I too am very much a stickler for standard ICAO phraseology on the radio. ICAO phraseology needs more emphasis during instrument training. We frequently have discussions of pilot vs controller issues. When he's at work, he is always called over when an aircraft declares an emergency to give information about what the emergency aircraft might need or be doing. It shocks me that the controller in this situation did not immediately realize the significance of the Mayday call. Kudos to the crew for using the correct Mayday call. on the other hand, Im amazed at the number of aircrews that do not declare an emergency when they should. As far as thrust reversers, I believe it was a Lauda Air 767, 30 some odd years ago, that had a reverser actually deploy inflight. The crew lost control of the aircraft very quickly and crashed.
Glad to hear at least some of the American pilots think this way.
Yeah, Skipper, an inflight deployment of a reverser (on a wing mounted engine) is pretty much a death sentence. It happened to at least one DC-8 with pax onboard.
I am not above telling ATC to "Give me vectors to the outer marker, clear out everybody below me, clear the runway and roll the equipment." if I thought that a reverser was going to deploy on me.
Yeah, I can imagine that a crash would be extremely common for a reverser kicking on midflight! I guess if you killed the engine fast enough then you could recover but a plane suddenly doing the hokey pokey in the air probably isn't gonna end well 😂
@@stay_at_home_astronaut If the engine is shut down, there's plenty of added danger-- but the thrust reverser deploying on that engine is no longer a major one.
@tikikey, it was Lauda Air. Boeing a P@W said it couldn't happen and the crash was Laudas fault. He said no and this problem could happen to another flight. Thankfully he won.
Being a World Champion he was used to winning and details hehe
"That may not be procedure, but neither is hitting the mountain" 🤣🤣🤣..Kelsey ,I love you!!!
same, made me laugh out loud lol
I always love Kelsey’s brilliant life advice.
"The universal distress call Mayday was invented in 1923 by Frederick Stanley Mockford, chief radio officer at Croydon airport in London. The authorities had asked him to find a term to signal distress that would be easily understood by all pilots and ground staff in the event of an emergency. Mockford chose a phonetic transcription of the pronunciation of the French expression "m'aider" - ‘help me’ (a shortened version of "venez m'aider") which had been uttered by a French pilot in distress two years earlier and which was understood by the English operator as "Mayday". And Pan Pan is from the French 'Panne' (Breakdown)
Gotta love the French getting dunked on simply as a matter of convenience. Everyone has to learn English to fly international, but they also have to learn a couple French words for when things go sideways.
@@RadioactiveSherbet The number of French words in English is surprising!
@@james-p The number of English speaking French also.
The local hospital in Croydon was known as Mayday for many years.
The hospital in Croydon was named Mayday and I always wondered why! This is probably why! We used to call it May die due to the many mrsa virus outbreaks….
Kelsey deserves a fifth stripe. Addresses serious matters with an outrageous tongue in cheek humour. As he says (twice) "I'm just a big cry baby". Who tosses around 747's like they are feathers. 74Gear rules!
Actually above 4 stripes would be 1 really thick stripe
You can clearly see he already has 5 black stripes on his golden lapels.
That's why I bought a zebra
I think this guy sleeps in his captain uniform
I’m an older controller at a level 12 facility and this is all great info, I’ve learned a lot from your channel. A lot of the weird questions and misunderstandings you may hear from us nowadays is a product of the FAA’s recent hiring of people with NO previous aviation experience. However, also bear in mind that there IS a lot going on behind the scenes for us too. Internal coordination between sectors and/or the tower, calling the domestic event network, moving other aircraft out of your way, rolling the equipment, dealing with stupid supervisors mouth breathing over our shoulder asking dumb questions, etc. So we may or may not have operational bandwidth to be able to give progressive instructions either, depending on workload. When they pull the tapes on these incidents they usually tell the computer to filter out all the other transmissions to declutter, so who knows what else was going on. Love your stuff, keep up the good work!
As a controller I always assumed holding wasn’t that hard to do for a pilot. Seems like a good idea to have them hold close to the field so they can be ready to come in when they’re ready. I think the majority of controllers that don’t have piloting experience think this way until we see stuff like this explaining it. My initial thought was that giving the hold instructions would’ve been easier because now they’re in one spot near the field and no longer expecting any more radio calls for more control instructions while they troubleshoot and configure.
I’ll keep this video in mind if I’m in the scenario in the future but truly I (and a lot of us) didn’t/don’t know how much workload it increases. As you said though the pilot should’ve said unable to his hold instructions if it increases the workload that much. Not all of us know how to fly a plane and how much goes into certain tasks and we just want to help lol
Ps. Super embarrassing that a pilot said mayday, mayday, mayday and the controller asked if he was declaring an emergency 🤦🏼♂️
I have always thought that pilots and controllers should observe each other's job
Depends on the aircraft, the crew, and what the holding instructions are.
If you gave me “hold present position” that’s like 3 keystrokes on my FMS. If you told me hold as published or some “hold this fix this radial these turns these leg times” I gotta punch in that whole thing manually.
If we go missed approach and you say hold as published that’s also easy, because it’s pre-programmed with the approach.
But that’s just me, on my aircraft, with my training and experience.
For a different pilot/crew on a different aircraft, with different avionics it’s probably way different.
Either way you wouldn’t know unless we tell you. Just a quick “unable” or suggestion like “can we just do present position holding?” Would clear it up.
I’m glad you’re going out of your way to learn what’s happening on the other side of the mic. I know controllers have to do jumpseat observations every so often. I wish airline pilots had to go hang out in the ARTCC or tower once in a while too. We’re a team! We should know what each other’s jobs look like.
@@byronhenry6518 That's interesting, any published hold in our FMS comes up as an option when you begin to create the hold. I'm surprised it's not like this on all FMSes!
An unexpected hold, especially during an emergency is a PITA and causes us to stop whatever we’re doing in order to make sure we get it right. Bad form to assign a hold during an emergency
On older aircraft especially its a ton of work. Once full screen GPS became common place they became much much easier, but you still have to dial them in: in an emergency, vectors are much appreciated!
Most simulator scenarios at my airline have us do a hold after an engine failure on departure followed by a return to the airport. But hey, that's the sim... we understand the game and play along. In reality, I would certainly refuse any hold given, and request vectors.
When we changed from "declaring an emergency" to PAN-PAN-PAN I was like "how am I going to remember calling PAN in an emergency after years of training with "declaring an emergency"? Couple years later we had to shut down an engine at 1500ft after departure, and to my surprise I did call PAN-PAN-PAN !! I asked for 15-20 min vectors to get ourselves ready to come back SE, that's what we got no problem, ATC was super helpful. Once on final the controller asked us to "keep the speed up". My answer was "Negative". He immediately apologized and said "Speed at you discretion".
Lol, keep the speed up... "yeah if you send me up a second functional engine, I'll be glad to help with your sequence" :D everyone's got their reflexes.
Well done. 11y years in jets 30 in ATC.
Keep your speed up isn’t as bad as when controller tells a single engine aircraft that lost its engine to descend and maintain x altitude? That drives me nuts.
Our sim instructors would give us delay vectors, no go hold BS.
@@couespursuit7350 Actually they have us do a hold for at least one of the scenarios, as a hold is required in the test. Once a hold has been correctly demonstrated (FMS programming, correct entry) we get vectored as you say for the rest of the session (or, more simply, they just position freeze the sim).
14:41 "That may not be procedure... but neither is hitting the mountain"
Lol!! I love these explanations expressed in such a straightforward way
Totally agree with the 2.2 issue. As a retired controller/supervisor phraseology has been written in blood. Stick to the pilot-controller glossary and recommended phraseology.
What does the controller think "Mayday, mayday, mayday" mean other than an emergency? Controller giving an alt and heading is perfect, then all the pilot to aviate, navigate, then get to you. Also once the pilot gives SOB and fuel remaining in time (if they give lbs take it, let pilot fly) coordinate all the subsequent controllers know and won't ask again. So, as a controller, and 10,000+ corporate pilot you nailed this, not surprised. I feel any engine failure (for 2 engined aircraft), keeping the aircraft sort of close to the airport just in case of the other engine buggering up. Weather issuance was good, totally agree. I'd have asked the pilot if they wanted vectors or holding, and if holding where they'd like to hold. And if holding at the controllers discretion, issue easy holding...give a point and ask the pilot how they'd like to hold. The PILOT is the BOSS. Controllers are not very well versed on aircraft fly, or even emergencies aside from how to handle them, so keep that in mind.
I was taught to give the critical numbers in an emergency. If fuel low give duration remaining so controllers know to expedite, if fuel is high give amount on board so fire teams know what they are dealing with.
The pilot doesn't have to. It's good airmenship but it's up to the ATC to ask for the info
I think you can guarantee they will ask again anyway.
...and hadn't they just left Portland? Love the videos!
As a firefighter, I highly appreciate your attitude!
"Last time" (read: the only time) that I had to deal with an airplane emergency in that context, the reported "numbers" included a spare fuel tank and 2 air-to-ground missiles. 😱
I always thought it was about how many foam trucks needed......
Reverser deployed in flight:
🔸Lauda Air flight NG004, Thailand, 26 May 1991, B767, fatalities: 223 (no survivors)
🔸TAM flight JJ402, Brazil, 31 October 1996, F100, fatalities: 103 (no survivors)
All the other: Never heard about them. Engine went auto- idle upon the faulty deployment. This happens before the pilots even have time to process what is happening. With the engine at idle, the plane remains controllable (most of the time, at least at low altitude). After above incidents, aside from auto-idle, the also installed additional safeguards. The later deployments, to my knowledge, where all due to faulty maintenance, if one reverser was deactivated, but not correctly stowed.
C-5 in Germany shortly after TO. Believe all aboard were KIA
@@beyondEV if I remember correctly, at least in the case of the TAM Fokker 100, the plane tried to put the engine at idle but the copilot, thinking it was an auto-throttle malfunction, pushed the throttle forward and fought against the system trying to pull it back, to the point that the steel cable used by the system to pull the throttle back ended up breaking.
"That might not be procedure, but neither is hitting a mountain" - true wisdom right there
Just an FYI, we actually want the fuel in lbs like the pilot gave. We pass the info along to ARFF. They want to know how many bodies, how big of fireball. If the pilot give fuel in time, we ask what the weight is.
If asking for fuel, they’re asking for weight. If they wanted flying time, they’ll ask for endurance.
Fun fact, px have assigned seats because when the ac comes apart on the ground, they may well be strapped into the seats, makes the coroner's life easier. Another CAP training point, on SAR never ever say He's dead Jim. Now everyone gets to wait for a coroner to show up. Load them into the ambulance and DOA saves a ton of paperwork.
Speaking from a firefighter’s perspective there’s WAY too much radio traffic wasted on fuel during emergency incidents. If they give fuel remaining in time, ATC or fire wants pounds. If they give it in pounds, they want time. I’ve seen incidents where the plane is almost over the threshold and either fire or ATC wants to know the fuel on board which is not a valid reason to distract the pilots seconds from touchdown IMHO. It simply doesn’t matter at that point.
It doesn’t make one iota of difference to the ARFF crews if it’s 10k or 20k of fuel, every commercial passenger jet is landing with enough fuel for “big bada boom.” If a flight *just* departed then that information alone negates any need to ask about time or weight of fuel, because obviously the flight has plenty.
In cases of fuel leaks, fuel starvation, other fuel related emergencies then yes people will want to know how much fuel is on board in which case crews should simply provide time and weight so there’s not this back/forth all the damn time.
Now I know it’s easier and preferred to have standard emergency procedures so it “makes sense” to ask about fuel anytime an emergency is declared - except we’re currently doing that and can’t even get it right in the US.
Something needs to change.
Bonus with nearly-empty tanks: if you happen to have about the right amount of vapor, then you might get actual kaboom instead of whoosh...
(you're a firey, obviously I'm assuming you already know this)
I would agree, shouldn't the firefighting team be prepared for a plane running off the runway on takeoff with full tanks. I mean they are not going to sit with empty tanks and only load up for the incident. (Oh my bad I thought we only had to fight 500 pounds of fuel not 1500, hang on BRB while I go and get more AFFF)
I was just thinking, give the measurement that's important - if you're landing with full tanks, give tons. if you're landing with low tanks give time.
@@kenbrown2808 Short tons, or long tons....?
@@wessexdruid7598 or metric ton?
Kelsey has been kidnapped by the crew schedulers lmao. That abandoned warehouse background makes me laugh.
Or the Eyelid Guy.
@@Anna_Xor Or captain Hernandez
The boiled owl person has kidnapped him
@@limbercubas or the hotel receptionist.
It was only a matter of time. He knows too much.
So this is a typical pilot perspective. I say that as a commercial helicopter pilot. But I'm also an ATC. Pilots think about themselves. They should, it's their job, to fly THEIR aircraft. Controllers on the other hand, think about EVERY aircraft. So whilst as you say, you are very busy in the cockpit, there is a lot going on for the controller too. Firstly, the aircraft with the mayday is the priority but there is still every other aircraft under his control that still needs to be monitored, vectored, or handed off so that the controller has less traffic to think about.
He also needs to co-ordinate. This would be with the aisle supervisor, probably a quick note to say "heads up, I've got a mayday, I'll get back to you". He will then contact the tower to let them know to stop departures like you mentioned and to let them have a rough idea as to what is occurring. This process will continue and every time the controller gets new info he'll have to co-ordinate it. Oh and he still has all those other aircraft I talked about to control. One of the fastest ways to have two aircraft get close together or have some sort of incident is to get hyper focused on an emergency to the detriment of all your other traffic.
When the controller gave the vector to the hold, in my opinion he was basing that on what the pilot has told him both verbally and by his demeanor. You mentioned the pilot sounded calm and in control. The shut down was procedural, not due to something like a bird strike or fire. Yes it was an emergency but even the pilots said they'd like to hold whilst they problem solve. I have found over my 20 year ATC career I have learnt that you can tell a lot from how the pilots communicate. I've heard everything from guys like this to people who knew they were about to die on the radio. So based on how they talk to me I will tailor my response accordingly.
That's not to say that you can load the cool, calm and collected guy/girl up. The situation can change quickly but you definitely make decisions based on both what and how something is said.
One other thing to think about. The pilot said he'd need to hold. It's quite possible that the controller thought the pilot may be actually asking to be sent to SCAPO where the published hold is. I'm not saying that's definitely what happened but it's possible. Again it comes back to communication. The pilot could have just as easily come back and asked for vectors as you say. Listening to this guy, I feel , had it been out of his ability to manage he would have said something. He sounded like a pro to me.
All of this doesn't mean I'm saying you are wrong. I just feel it's a lot more nuanced than is alluded to here.
Shack. This here. I’ve also been number 3 of three emergencies in progress, that now ATC has to figure out who is which priority.
@@gunhog11yeah been there on both sides of the radio too. Slept well those nights for sure.
Great commentary on passengers hearing engine shutdown. I was on a commercial flight which lost an engine (felt like the fan was going to rip through the fuselage when it went out). Seemed like 5 minutes or more before the Captain made an announcement. I already knew they were busy 1)assessing the situation and 2)going through checklists. We landed at an alternate airport after 30 minutes of flying with 1 engine and praying it didn’t burn out from overload. Always professional, courteous, and I believe the crew was relieved to be safely on terra firma as well. Thanks as always for the commentary.
Kelsey: "I'm a big fat crybaby" - best laugh I've had in a while! 😅
Captain Kelsey always keeping it real 😂
how about "pucker factor" LOL
Kelsey: "Waaah, gimme my vectors! I want my vectors!" LOLOL
Damn right Kelsey....give me vectors.
i appreciate kelsey negotiating with his kidnappers to let him set up his filming equipment and record the video. editor also did a great job cutting out the screams. im glad they gave him access to wifi. haha love your vids
I've seen a lot of aircraft emergency videos where the controller asks for "FUEL IN POUNDS" not in time. I always assumed this was to give the fire fighting folks an idea of how big a disaster they need to prepare for.
It’s a dumb question when the plane literally just took off + even at low fuel any plane has enough to create a big boom
Kelsey, really nice job breaking down this incident. You spoke of things I would have never been aware of…learned a lot. Well done.
I was riding in the jump seat on a C-5B Galaxy out of Travis AFB years ago. On take off, at about 120 knots, we had a reverser unlocked indication. The crew immediately rejected the take off, but weren't sure if they should use reverse thrust to stop, the checklist wasn't clear, so they relied on the brakes. Luckily, we were empty, with a light fuel load (going up for air-to-air refueling training), so we stopped with plenty of concrete left in front of us, but the brakes were seriously hot. Taxied off, fire department made sure nothing was on fire or smoking, so we went back to the ramp. Ended up being a mis-rigged sensor (had just been replaced the day before). Maintenance fixed it, tested it, and we were back on our way in about an hour and a half. Luckily the tanker didn't have anything else to do that day, so we completed the mission and everybody got current. Still a bit scary though, thinking about one of those big GE TF-39s suddenly deciding to go the opposite direction.
I was thinking if they were fully loaded would they try to use the reversers or not. Try to fully open the reverser and turn the engine back on? I'm guessing procedure for brakes only while fully loaded would be land on the numbers and use the entire length of the runway and hopefully meet the fire crews at the very end of the runway. Obviously I'm not a pilot but I am curious what the landing procedures for something like this would be.
The USAF would have supplied new drawers for the crew I would hope!
Wonder if they updated the checklist...
The engine won't go into "reverse" unless it's selected to do so by the pilot. The problem is just an indication problem, not a control problem.
If it's anything like the Tornado thrust reverse, there are stowed microswitches on the operating arms and locked microswitches on the locking pins which lock the mechanism closed. We often used to get reports from pilots that they'd got an "unlocked" indication (iirc) during supersonic runs which was purely down to one of the microswitches being out of adjustment. I have no doubt the engines you mention have a very similar system. Hope this helps.
@@shadowprince4482 I don't know about military aircraft, but all civilian aircraft are tested to do a RTO at max gross weight, at V1, using only the brakes. There's a video out there with a fully loaded A380 doing an emergency stop from V1. They even sat there for several minutes with the tires slowly starting to burn to simulate the fire brigade being slow.
I think after 3 (or 5?) minutes, the fire brigates was told, ok, you can start putting out the fire.
@@realulli Oh cool! Thanks for the reply!
Kelsey, if you listen to the recording really closely when the pilot was transmitting the MAYDAY declaration, it sounds like ATC is stepping on the pilot (you’ll need good quality headphones). So it makes sense that ATC asked if he was declaring an emergency because he didn’t hear that part.
Thanks to your channel and videos for training my ear to even notice that!
Ah, the joys of half-duplex!
Yep I heard that too, anyone receiving would have either heard ATC, the pilot or a mix of garbage due to both stations transmitting at once, depending on proximity
Such a cool, calm, collected *BURN* of the controller's mishandling of the situation. Love it.
Kelsey you are amazing. I hope that all pilots and controllers use your info as a learning lesson. Thank you for all your time and effort. Sparky
When I was in ATC I I added to the end of the phraseology to "How much fuel remaining?" IN TIME?" Sure speeded up the process and gave the information needed first thing.
That’s a good option, but then half the time ARFF keys up and wants fuel time weight. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t
Yep. You’re going to land at a known airport. ATC may want to know how much fuel in time, but the real need for the fuel state is for the responders on the ground. They want/need gallons.
@@greysheeumExactly what I was going to say. 4 hours may mean nothing to the ground responders. They want pounds or gallons, because 4 hours in one plane might be 500 gallons and another be 1500 gallons.
Keep the info coming
I say “fuel remaining in minutes”
A very good debrief! As a simulator instructor, I know how busy the pilots are when they have an engine issue during take-off and initial climb. The checklists are long, and the approach chart is something they will only think about later when the issue has been taken care of. Flying into an airport you are not 100% familiar with makes it much harder.
Outstanding! Thank You. We love you down here in South Florida!
I am so glad you explained the fuel thing. I always assumed it for the fire dept to know how much fuel on the ground ... Thanks for confirming it's for ATC to know how much time you have. Thank you!
I'm a Rideshare driver that works PDX. That planes was parked in Alaskas Maintenance spot for over a week. They had to pull the entire cowling and reverser off. I don't think American has maintenance facilities at PDX either so that probably complicated things.
PDX has been a mess for the past two or so years. Not sure what's going on there.
@@MargieM10 It all started when the damn carpets got changed
American doesn't, but they're a One World airline like Alaska, so that would be the natural choice.
@@definitelynotaweeb6879 😂😂😂 Indeed
@@definitelynotaweeb6879 Man, I miss that carpet.
a bigger issue with inflight deployment of thrust reversers is that it creates a plume of air infront of the affected engine and wing, wich leads to loss of lift, wich then can lead to an aerodynamic stall. this happend in 1991 to Lauda Air Flight 004
Because of that flight measures were taken to stop it from happening.
In this case the reverser unlock error trigggers automatic idle, and then procedure calls for shutdown.
Of this is the incident I’m thinking of they actually had the error on the ground, cleared it, and then whammie as soon as they got up in the air and hit some turbulence it jostled the reverser just enough.
If I recall the correct flight - there was no notification given to pilots about an in-flight deployment of the reverser - the plane merely rolled the engine back to idle. The plane rolling thrust back unannounced at takeoff is ... concerning to pilots, especially if you're under speed and the plane is trying to stall.
@@Relkond if true then that means this is the second such incident with an A320 family aircraft in the last 6 weeks or so as mine had a message on the ground.
@@Relkondno your taking about Tam Linhas aéreas flight 402 which as a Fokker 100
Shut down the engine is the reaction you want , evidently.
You can just tell that Kelsey is very proud of his 747s every time he mentions them.
So would I be. Still for me the most beautiful ship out there.
I would be! She's the Queen of the Skies!
Loving this format! I am just a passionate simmer (who is getting is PPL with a PA-28) but simulating emergencies is something I should do way more and having a reference from the real world is very insightful.
Hours of fuel remaining may be important to you and specific to your aircraft, but pounds of fuel is very standard and useful to the fire crew on the ground.
Transmit a distress or urgency message consisting of as many as necessary of the following elements, preferably in the order listed:
If distress, MAYDAY, MAYDAY, MAY-DAY; if urgency, PAN-PAN, PAN-PAN, PAN-PAN.
Name of station addressed.
Aircraft identification and type.
Nature of distress or urgency.
Weather.
Pilots intentions and request.
Present position, and heading; or if lost, last known position, time, and heading since that position.
Altitude or flight level.
...Fuel remaining in minutes....
Number of people on board.
Any other useful information
Aeronautical Information Manual (AIM) FAA
I wouldn’t care what they say. My instruments give kg so they’ll get kg. I doubt they’ll do calculations on how many fire engines to dispatch. They’ll send them all.
Watched quite a few of these type videos, more than a few ATC have asked for the fuel in pounds...even after flight crew gives them fuel in time remaining.
I was thinking the same thing. I need pounds to figure out the hazmat game plan.
Only in America
Being an ATC controller since 28 years, I had quite a few emergencies on my frequencies - including engine shutdowns. We also always listen to the voices of the flightcrews to determine their stress level and how we can work with them based on what we hear.
This particular pilot did not sound overly stressed out after they had shut down the engine and he even requested delay vectors to set the aircraft up for a proper approach and landing. The controller however let them fly to SCAPO to enter the holding there which I do not find that discerning for several reasons:
1. as mentioned above, the crew sounded calm enough and needed time and miles anyway
2. SCAPO is the initial approach fix - so in case they wanted to start the approach, they wouldn´t have been too far out, which - on the other hand - could happen any time with delay vectors (which they did request) as the controller usually does not know when the aircraft is ready to commence the approach. 5000ft would also be 1000ft above the initial approach altitude what gives them additional safety margin if needed
3. as far as I understand, letting the aircraft enter a holding pattern and let the crew just fly that pattern on autopilot takes away another distraction from them which is receiving new vectors every 20 or so seconds (depending on the size of airspace or 5000ft radar vectoring minimum the controller has available)
I´m absolutely on your side regarding sloppy phraseology...
As an armchair aviation guy I like it when ATC gives options for either a hold or vectors.
The 2021 TransAir 810 crash in Honolulu comes to mind. ATC gave them the option to come back in right away, but they required more time to run checklists. ATC gave vectors to give them time, but they ended up being too far out after they "lost" their second engine. If they were in a holding pattern at the approach end, it would have added an additional layer of safety, in case the situation became much more urgent.
The pilot is in control here, so if he wasn't comfortable with being directed to SCAPO then he can indicate negative. The pilot has already shown he will do his own thing by staying at 5000. It seems clear it's an option for the pilot, not a direction. In this situation is seems reasonable.
I'm just an aviation fan myself and the entire video I was thinking, "What's wrong here?" This seemed like a very professional interaction between both ATC and the pilots. Obviously, Kelsy pointed out some ways they could have improved it, but overall, no one seemed to get upset. And except for the initial missed understood Mayday call (which still was clarified quickly), they communicated quite well.
I agree with what robk8987 said about SCAPO being the perfect place to park them. PDX has intensive flight training to the southwest, parachute jumping to the southeast, and a volcano to the north. (Though I doubt there was much of either on a cold blustery February day, but this was a very safe place to put them.) I think Kelsey has blown this way out of proportion and as far as we (don't) know, the pilot could live in Scappoose and this could have been his 23'rd flight back and forth from PHX that week. As others have pointed out, thrust reversers deploying in flight at low altitude at high power could be a death sentence, not just a bad thing that makes the airplane fly crooked. Also, the MSA in the video is factually wrong, as the charted MSA is centered around Battleground VOR, not PDX. There was no chance of that plane hitting anything.
Flora's such a lucky dog !
I hope you all have a lovely time ,I can't wait to see all flora's hoilday adventures xxx❤
I'm not sure why I haven't seen you for awhile, but I see that you have become a Captain in the interim. Congratulations! I have always enjoyed your videos.
I'm glad Kelsey confirmed, "hitting the mountain is not procedure."
Well, NOT hitting the mountain IS a procedure. Which doesn't include leaving an engine burning (unless you've had a bad day and lost >1 engine OR you screwed up your perf calculations).
Hitting the mountain is optional but not best practice
Retired 777 check pilot here. Thank you for addressing the Mayday vs Pan, Pan issue. We began transitioning to this ICAO training within the last two years and, as usual, U.S. ATC seems to be the last to know. Both are a means of declaring an emergency. “Mayday” is defined as “grave and imminent” danger. “Grave” means, you’re gonna die. “Immanent” means, you’re gonna die right away. 😂. “Pan, pan” simply means, “Urgent.” You’re correct, which you declare is based upon your situation at the moment. Unless I am actively on fire - engine, cargo, or other - or anything els3 I deem to be “grave and imminent” I’m going to err toward, Pan, pan. That’s just me, or was me. Great analysis.
I don’t know where your comment comes from but that information was released long ago and guidance in 7100.G5 AA was updated to reflect both the Mayday and pan calls.
@@Jimmer-tr6bi to be honest, there are questions why it took so long when mayday was invented for Aeronautical use at Croydon Airport in the UK and was adopted as the standard grave and imminent emergency call by the ITU for all emergency radio voice calls at the International Radiotelegraph Convention of Washington in 1927. SOS is the Morse code equivalent. Pan-Pan actually comes from the Geneva conventions for specifying a medical transport as pan-pan medical, but also was specified at that same conference for less emergency use with XXX being the Morse code equivalent.
@@EwanMarshall very interesting. Thanks for sharing. What’s also noteworthy, the United States Coast Guard and anyone with a nautical captains license knows that Mayday called three times is the standard phraseology for what is an “emergency” and pan pan pan is the equivalent phraseology for an urgent situation. This has been around for (I don’t know how long) so it’s nice to see aeronautical and nautical join in phraseology similarities!
@@Jimmer-tr6bi Yes, I'm a ham operator and a sailor, the whole declaring an emergency was weird to me, but it is even weirder when mayday came from the aeronautical world. Pan-pan may have too, they are both based in French.
Please note, 1927 and ITU pre-date both ICAO and the FAA
Great breakdown of situation as always. Thank you. Really like your channel.
"That may not be procedure. But so is not hitting a mountain." LOL
I heard this audio and yeah, for ATC to ask again about the Mayday blew my mind.
Great vid!
I live in Scappoose (ie: SCAPO). Of the areas surrounding PDX, it is the least populated, surrounded by fields, and next to the Columbia river. If an aircraft has to go down, this would be the best place for it, even pulling a Sully and landing in the river. I'll bet it is SOP for PDX to orbit any emergency aircraft in this area to minimize the potential collateral ground damage should a crash be inevitable. It makes complete sense to me that the controller immediately vectored them away from the high density urban areas.
Had nothing to do with it. SCAPO is the IAF for the ILS into runway 10R, that is where you start the landing approach procedure. The hold is there as a method to get airplanes traveling the wrong direction (like this one was) turned around and onto the final approach path.
Hey! You have four bars! Congratulations!
It's been months now, but he hasn't talked about it. At least not on RUclips.
@@AFloridaSonKelsey is just a humble guy. That's why we love him
yeah..I just noticed that on this video too
The 4 strips that must not be named. Never ever, no matter what.
I came here to say this!! Congrats Captain Kelsey!!
This is all so very interesting. Thanks for posting/sharing. Cheers!
Mayday comes from the French M'aider meaning 'help me' . PAN also comes from the French word Panne meaning breakdown. So when you call Mayday, you want help to go somewhere, like right now. When you call PAN, you're saying 'I have a breakdown, and give me some space to sort it out; don't need immediate assistance for now'. The level of urgency is lower with a PAN, because you don't have to proceed somewhere immediately.
Maybe all true, maybe not. The main thing is that "Mayday, Mayday, MAYDAY" means exactly one thing over the radio, be it aviation or marine: Lives are in immediate danger. Drop everything else and help us as best you can."
@@jerelull9629 Yes, needing to go somewhere right away because we're toast if we do not, is why MAYDAY is broadcast. Besides, the only respondent to MAYDAY that can help you is ATC, since they are the ones to assist you into getting yourself on the ground ASAP. What else could ATC do apart from pointing you in the right direction and giving you priority.... there are no airborne rescue vehicles. Origins of words tell you what the context is; in this case, it means 'help me', and ATC can only point you in the right direction.
*Pilot **_"Mayday, Mayday Mayday Mayday, Mayday Mayday Mayday, Mayday Mayday Mayday, Mayday Mayday "_*
*ATC **_"Is this an emergency?"_*
Pilot: "No, we're just having a rave party here, wanna join?"
😂😂😂😂
"Mayday? Why that's the Russian new year! We'll have a parade and..." Johnny from Airplane
@@jjc4577 make sure the triple A missiles aren't hot
Also when your manual says LAND ASAP - you kind of want to land as soon as possible, or as soon as ATC finishes up getting a fresh cup of coffee. You know. Priorities.
I demand a T-Shirt with "That may not be procedure, but neither is hitting the mountain" LOL.
You want me to make one? Or is that just a phrase
I know how to make one
I’d buy it😊
@viffviffer9804 Alright! You want plain text on it? Which font? Do you want a photo in the background?
That's good advice telling ATC time in fuel vs weight. I've never had to declare a may day (tap tap tap)I've listened to a few. Your take and explanation on situations is another reason why I enjoy your video's. Thank you.
They oftentimes ask for both. Time for controller planning, weight for ARFF (fire brigade)
Thanks for clarifying the reason for asking about fuel on board. I always assumed it was so they could notify firefighters how big of a fireball to expect if the plane crashed (or something like that).
14:42 "It is not procedure to hit a mountain." Good to know this is standard airline policy!
Its interesting that Kelsey should talk about reverting to what you're most familiar with in an emergency and why speaking correctly is so important to do all the time so you revert to correct communication when faced with an emergency. Then to have the controller revert to what he's most familiar with, a standard holding instruction, instead of offering holding vectors.
This is why I never drive a car when I go to the U. K.
Sure I will be alright when I am focused on being on the "wrong" side of the road, but let my mind wander or have to react instantly in an emergency and I know 100% I will do what I would do if I were back on a U. S. road.
Exactly…
it's always a blast watching your vlogs Mr Kelsey. I love the way you commentate on your short documentaries.
Thank you for sharing this information safe travels
It's worth remembering that once a pilot has declared an emergency, they do not have to follow ATC instructions, they can ignore ATC and simply do what they need to do to for the best of the aircraft and the persons on board.
That’s a spirit and love for his RUclips audience, even when he is kidnapped in this warehouse he still wear his nice clean and press captain shirt and made a RUclips video for us. 👊👍🏻
It depends on your available nav equipment. With some systems you can easily pull up that published hold and set the autopilot to "nav" and it will give you everything including the teardrop/parallel/direct entry and fly it for you.
Retired ATC. I always wanted to know which engine was shut down because you don’t want to issue vectors that make the aircraft turn towards the engine which is shut down or at least set the aircraft up so that the pilot can make wide turns toward the bad engine.
Great commentary.....thank you
I'm confused. If your starboard engine is out, wouldn't turns towards starboard, i.e. towards the shut down engine, be easier to perform than turns to port where the shut down engine won't help the turn? 🤔
@@Lornoor Good morning. I was an air traffic controller and I am not a pilot so you should contact a certified twin engine flight instructor to get his or her input. As I understand it if you lose an engine the aircraft will have asymmetric thrust. In other words, if the left engine becomes inoperative it won’t provide any thrust while the “good” engine, the right, is still producing thrust. This will cause the aircraft to yaw (turn) towards the left. In addition, the engine nacelle and the propeller on the bad engine is producing drag. Additionally, the propeller on the left side is not spinning and forcing air over the left wing. Which means that the left wing will produce less lift than the right which will cause the aircraft the bank (lean) to the left. Remember that I am NOT a pilot. There are methods that a pilot can use to attempt to counter act the effects of losing an engine. But if you turn towards the bad engine you may lose control of the aircraft because of less lift on the left wing plus the right engine is producing thrust and the left is not. I see your point where it may be easier to turn towards the dead engine but it may increase your risk. That is why I mentioned in my original comment that I would issue wide turns towards the good engine. Set the aircraft up for a wide downwind and extend him a bit farther from the field so that the pilot can execute a more gradual turn to final and have an opportunity to fly a stabilized approach as opposed to keeping the aircraft on a tight downwind and too close to the threshold so that he has to really crank it in on a slam dunk approach.
As a powerplants engineer whom has been party to lots of flight testing including TR deployment in flight test, you should be afraid of a reverser unlocked message in flight. What it means is that you have lost one of several inadvertent deployment preventions which means you are one step closer to deployment. In flight deployment of a wing TR on a wing mounted engine is more than likely catastrophic. Teh crew in this case did exactly the right thing, shut down the engine.
Offhand I can't think of a quicker way to take a plane from coordinated flight to uncontrolled freefall, than that kind of ridiculous yaw spinning the aircraft sideways.
That's purely reasoning from first principles, but you've actually seen it done - is that roughly what happens? I'm really curious to hear anything you can tell us about that, though I absolutely wouldn't want to be anywhere near it myself.
I immediately visualized yaw into uncontrolled spin. (I am curious, too)
It's not just the yaw from differential thrust, but that the deployed reverser will spoil the airflow over that wing. Having one wing suddenly stall while the other is still trying to fly is bad.
@@rayvanlandingham7218 true, plus that wing suddenly has less airspeed. I'm struggling to imagine exactly how all this would interact, but I'm damn sure I wouldn't want to be the poor bastard trying to fly the thing.
@patheddles4004 A hard roll to the affected side, combined with a rotation of the aircraft (yaw) into the roll (so, in effect, rolling sideways and then nosing into the new "down" direction). Since you are diving, you are now getting even more lift from the unaffected wing, and since you are "sideways" now, it's just going to spin you harder.
This is my "guess" (not an aeronautical engineer) but I think you would basically turn into a lawn dart. Imagine if you were in cruise, then suddenly pushed the stick hard right (aileron roll), shoved the right rudder pedal to the floor.... and then just held it.
I don't think it would be the "crabbing" effect of the differential thrust itself that would be really dangerous (it's trying to rotate the entire airframe into the windstream) but that the loss of lift will immediately cause you to dive into it, and that starts a cycle of self-reinforcing effects
Back in the early 80's, I was flying in the pattern at Fulton County Airport (FTY and then known as Charlie Brown Airport). It was a super busy day. A Piper Navajo had just taken off and called a Mayday as his left engine went out. I'll never forget it. The controller responded, "Roger, Piper xxx make a LEFT 360 for spatial clearance." The rules about cussing on the radio temporarily went out the window. Fortunately, he made a safe landing. My instructor said that the controller got a little re-educating.
Isn't that what the plane wants to do anyway? Would be worse if they has to do a right turn after the left engine failed
@@bene5431 no. Turning into a dead engine is the last thing you want to do. The plane wants to do it, but it’s a good way to enter an accelerated stall.
Great video on the importance of proper radio phraseology. Many pilots in the US have terrible radio discipline. You are so right about how having short cut habits on the radio that one uses when flying domestically can create confusion and make a pilot sound like an amateur when flying internationally. Many people have strong opinions that are not based on the regulations or on official recommended procedures. For those who are quick to criticize when someone offers good advice, it’s worth taking the time to research the topic in the appropriate official regulation or publication before being so quick to criticize or dispute a person who shares good advice.
As a private pilot, I thoroughly enjoy your videos. Thank you for your contribution to aviation safety.
2.2 for 4??? ..
4 wickets for 2.2 overs is impressive bowling 👏
😂 too right
😂😂😂😂 "Gottim! Clean bowled."
“That may not be procedure,but neither is hitting the mountain” 😂
Kelsey, I trust you implicitly. Thanks for your layman's explanations.
Incredibly insightful video, as always!
Hearing you talk about the pan-pan vs. Mayday engine scenario where this 747 crew told ATC that they had an engine out, and when ATC asked if they’re declaring an emergency the 747 crew responded “no, we’re fine!”
I think it was Kelsey that one time said something along the lines of "if the threat of loosing another engine is low and there are no big bodies of water on the route they are sometimes told to simply fly to the intended destination with 3 engines"
@@zottelhuehs6375-- If nothing is leaking and there are no tall mountains to climb over, and airports along the way in case things get worse, why not?
@@TheRealScooterGuy exactly
A USAF B-52 and an F-16 were on a routine training mission, the pilot of the F-16 was a young arrogant SoB and started showing off to the B-52 crew by barrel rolling around the B-52. The F-16 pilot then challenged the B-52 pilot by saying anything you can do, I can do better. You're on replied the B-52 pilot, and the F-16 driver watched as the B-52 proceeded to fly straight and level. Curious, the F-16 pilot asked what the B-52 pilot did that was so impressive. The BUFF pilot replied I just shut down 2 engines kid, to which the F-16 pilot had no reply!!
Wow! I just noticed the captain's bars. Congrats!! 🎉
He Kelsey, most of the tile I totally agree with you but now I am in doubt.
The controller gave the crew the new A weather and told them to expect an approach on 10R one of the first things you do is to put the approach into the computer once done you can simply give dct to SCAPO it will be in your flightplan push the hold button input the inbound coarse of 154 enter it and your workload is down especially because the inbound into the fix will be you perfect intercept for the ILS.
Keep up the good work
Capt Dre
First time i found your channel and I wanted to let you know that I really enjoyed the content.
I agree with your points regarding the Mayday X 3 call and rough time estimates for FOB. I offer up an alternative perspective regarding vectors vs. holding. First, I never trust a controller explicitly. During the emergency (same as at all times), it is ultimately my responsibility to “Aviate, Navigate, and effectively Communicate” until we reach a successful conclusion to the flight. If I’m in a situation where I need to reduce our crew’s task loading, burn down fuel, etc.; I prefer to hold. Holding does a few things for me. It adds an additional resource operating our automation at a higher level hooked up to our FMC. It also helps to maintain a higher level of situational awareness as it speeds up our cross check on not only where we are but also where we are relative to our intended approach and airfield, restricted airspace, high terrain/obstacles, etc. Finally, it reduces the risk of missing an important radio call and excessive radio calls to listen for in general. Don’t get me wrong, sometimes vectors alone are fine in many situations. Regarding ATC’s calls, we’re really “splitting hairs” on that. If ATC asks if I am declaring an emergency, “Affirmative, I AM DECLARING AN EMERGENCY AND WE ARE RETURNING TO LAND.” No big deal, whatever I need to do to establish a shared mental model. I agree the controller could have avoided dropping the point on the crew but again, no big deal. I find the best controllers work as a team with the pilots establishing that “shared mental model “ I referred to earlier. Ultimately, I believe everyone involved did an outstanding job communicating and working together to safely recover the aircraft. I really enjoy your videos buddy. Thanks for all you do. BD
Good morning to you, Captain Kelsey from Chicago. I miss those weekly videos man when we get them, they're good. Have a good day, BROTHER !
KEEP THE BLUE SIDE UP 🛩🫡
Well stated. Thank you captain 👨✈️!
Wonderful videos - thank you
I love Kelsey’s channel, he is so humble and charming.I would fly with him as Captain anywhere.
Aren't you proud of him being a captain now? Remember he was a first officer and I watch all his vids and I don't remember him ever him being like "notice my fourth stripe now" comment so good for him. I love that he's so humble and always speaking about how bad he is at math. Um. we know you aren't, you wouldn''t have that job.
He is an envoy for passenger confidence. Nice to know, you can feel safe ! Always a good feeling.
"Mayday Mayday Mayday" - "Do you want to declare an emergency?" Does ATC even know what mayday stands for these days?
"why the hell are you talking about may? we're in april".
Kind of explains why pilots in the US never say "mayday" if the controllers don't know the standard phraseology.
Probably a diversity hire in ATC
They’d lost an engine, surely PAN PAN would have been enough? I’m half think that ATC put them in a hold for being drama queens. (Joking, obviously ATC shouldn’t be “teaching the pilots a lesson” in a situation like that).
@@weswheel4834I've never heard pan pan in the US
I was on a flight with Frontier 10ish years ago where one of the thrust reversers deployed on the takeoff roll. It was an interesting experience to say the least.
Love your videos, thanks as always! Can you make a video talking about that JetBlue flight that had to abort takeoff to avoid hitting the crossing southwest plane? Interested in a pro pilots perspective and breakdown of the result on the aircraft systems when you have to immediately stop that much mass, much more than landing weight. Thanks again!! Keep up the awesome videos!
Hey Kelsey.
God bless you for raising RT discipline by many US pilots. As an Aussie, it is so frustrating to hear the shortcuts accepted as standards phraseology.
As to fuel on board notification with a mayday, my understanding is that the notification is for RFFS situational awareness. So they want to know the weight of the fuel onboard to assist with the planning of the amount of extinguishing agent needed in case that weight of fuel erupts into flame.
If it was for ATC SA purposes relating to when you’re going to run out of juice, they’d ask for endurance.
That’s just my take…
As for holding v vectors. It’s a cultural thing I think. I’m so used to holding to complete procedures during sim sessions, that I find it funny to hear people ask for vectors all the time. In fact, it’s SOP where I work (and places I’ve worked prior) that we program a return in the secondary flight plan that includes a hold if published. When the engine goes bang, we fly the escape procedure, then ask for a DIR TO the hold. Easy peasy, lemon squeezy.
I really appreciate how thorough you are in explaining what the pilots are doing and how as passengers we need to give the pilots time to do what they need to do instead of giving updates to the. Passengers when they are extremely busy trying to land the plane. I know if I ever experience an emergency I will try to remember how busy the pilots are as well as the flight attendants trying to get the cabin ready for landing. Love your channel ❤
During a ground school a few years ago it was interesting to see the CC perspective on things. They were shocked when we said we might land without even speaking to them. They had the idea that we would be speaking to them and the cabin from the beginning.
As Blancoliro says:
Aviate
Navigate
Communicate
They need to be in control, know where they're going, how to get there... Then, tell pax what's going on..
@@lohikarhu734 - aviate, navigate, communicate is a good system for basic aviation in GA aircraft. Once you get into the multi crew environment then ANC doesn’t really apply, although it is always a good fall back position in an emergency.
Yes 3 things I try to stay onto of #1 safeplace to land if emergency would happen. #2 fuel or time I have left. #3 weather. My list is more like 10 but these 3 items is what the majority of mishaps appear to be around fuel and weather. Also the easiest to prevent
I just started watching you. and enjoy your stories. There was a airline that went down in the middle of the snowy winter in Afghanistan. Actually they passed up 2 military bases and crashed into the mountains in a neighboring country. I never heard what happened.
Kelsey, ATC wants to know fuel in pounds to relay to ARFF services, so they know what to expect should the plane end up in flames on the ground, and how much fire they could be battling. Though time is helpful too for the reasons you stated.
It really doesn’t make a difference to ARFF if it’s 10k or 30k. Big bada boom either way. The flight just took off so they know it has a bunch of fuel on board.
In my experience as a firefighter some people ask questions just for the sake of asking questions; they really shouldn’t be bothering the flight crew unless it’s for something pertinent/ meaningful. As I mentioned in another post I’ve heard fire ask for fuel in weight/pounds right when the aircraft is approaching the threshold which is nonsense.
@@cruisinguy6024Smarter not harder. I hope you are promoted sooner than later. At least I want you as my ARFF incident commander if I’m coming in with an emergency.
Yeah, this fuel question is just box ticking and seems to be ingrained into American ATC. No other country asks that question because it’s kind of obvious by the type of aircraft and operation. Basically for a large airliner you need 100% of your resources.
Furthermore “Hazardous Materials” is not a phrase used in aviation in the rest of the world. It’s “Dangerous Goods”.
And the rest of the world doesn’t use “Souls on Board”either.
The whole thing is unnecessary and time wasting, the information can be gained from the airline more accurately and in better detail.
They’re not going to do a calculation and send 2.5 fire engines to the crash.
@@EdOeuna ...But they might decide to alert nearby fire departments if it's more than they feel comfortable handling with the 2 trucks they have available on the airport. It's really not any less helpful than asking for time. Getting an aircraft in distress on the ground ASAP is always priority #1, if low fuel is an issue it shouldn't matter because that plane will be sent straight to the runway unless pilots request otherwise. So frankly fuel in time is rarely helpful at all, but at least the weight helps the airport know what could happen on the ground.
Really enjoy your detailed videos. Thanks, hope you keep producing.
Hey Kelsey consider this, Once you have done your engine shutdown, gotten an autopilot on it will take just a minute or two to get the hold setup. Once that is done the FMC will fly the hold, the PF can monitor the aircraft doing that.
Now you are in a holding pattern and the space is yours. ATC more or less does not need to speak to you until your ready to land. If you are on vectors you may have to both PF and PM stop what you are doing for a vector every minute or two. Maybe you need a climb for terrain. or what have you. That close tot he airport, sitting on a hold at the top of the ILS is a great place to be, you can head straight for the runway at anytime. Only thing I would have liked different is to hold at HAIRN IB on the LOC, just a bit closer to the runway.
As you said if you would request vectors, and would likely get them. Though I feel the vectors would actually increase workload. Always doing our emergency training in the sim where there is only one aircraft and once on vectors you magically quit moving over the ground may help pilots to underestimate how much ATC in that case would have to interrupt you. There is always additional risk whenever a pilot must stop a checklist to missing a step or going down the wrong branch.
The nice part is as the Captain of the aircraft if you don't want the hold you can certainly ask for vectors and you will get them. I think what the controller did was appropriate.
I always thought the SOB and fule on board was for the fire crews.
Makes sence it also tells the controller how long they have.
Just to be fair Kelsey, MAYDAY and PAN-PAN go right back to the beginning of civil aviation. The first regular scheduled flights in Europe were between London Croydon Airport and Paris Le Bourget. Mayday was devised by Fredrick Mockford who was in charge of radio communication at Croydon. Mayday comes from the French m'aidez (help me) and Pan-Pan from en panne (it's broken down). Also I'm with other people on here. The plane just took off fuel remaining is wanted in a quantity so that ARFF can be alert to the how much flammible liquid is there should the plane catch fire on the runway. Also if an engine is out, fuel consumption figures go out the window.
When one engine is pushing you forward and the other engine is pushing you backward, not what you want, lol, I hear ya buddy.
yeah. There goes the lift.
Hi Kelsey! Congrats on your content here! It's very cool to interact with your country's aviation culture. A great interchange! In my opinion, I would prefer to perform holding patterns close to the airport and already aligned with the runway, rather than being kept vectored around the sectors. As I said, keep us close to the runway and protected against terrain. It's a great debate!
Great video Kelsey love it mate hope work it going well