Waterproofs, they're rubbish aren't they? Gore Tex, Paramo, H2NO, eVent do they work?
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- Опубликовано: 18 июн 2020
- Bit of a click bait title that, but here's what I think of waterproofs for climbing / walking / hiking / etc and a little wander through the slate quarries looking for a climbing project :)
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gfy
i agree, and add my tips - i carry a poncho for real heavy downpours and take it off when it eases. this gives the jacket a break from dealing with torrential rain, and doesnt wet out so quick. I also ease off the pace and unzip my shell jacket under the poncho when walking/ climbing in heavy rain to keep sweat down, and sometimes just hunker down under my poncho (like a quick bivi tent) in the worst rain, which generally will ease off while i have a rest and a snack. Its not a race! ps i once had my shell jacket stolen at a cafe and the poncho saved the day. you can also carry a couple of black sacks for emergency waterproofs. Can you tell I walk in Scotland a lot ;)
The best breathable waterproof is an umbrella :P
You're absolutely right! I honestly will get round to buying one one day!
I would like to see you climbing with umbrella in your hands at same time. If you need to walk or stand at the rain longer without stupid stick in ur hand goretex is right thing but if you wanna cheap option just and something all the time keeping in your hand umbrella is best choice. I don't like umbrella and more than 20 years I don't use that stupid thing. One jacket is enough to keep you dry.
Mary Poppins heartily agrees!
Or s good cheap poncho?
@Sucofni Sucofni How it performs in windy conditions? I'm thinking of getting one for hiking.
You’ve hit the crux there! The acceptance of getting wet! I’ve spent £1000’s over the years on all sorts, Gore-tex, Event, triple point, paramo. They have all failed at one point or other. I’ve settled on Paramo for the reasons you have highlighted being warm and wet, not cold and wet. I have been known in the past to double park on waterproofs. Most of my work is on Dartmoor where wet days outnumber dry days!
Oh Dartmoor in the rain, the memories! It's a special kind of rain there that definitely warrants double parking!!
What’s wrong with just an actual raincoat, like one of those coated fabrics? Those are 100% waterproof and usually have vents to let out heat. Something like Rains or Stutterheim
@@SteveJarek probably the only real, long lasting, waterproof materials are nonwoven, basically full rubber, materials. Or woven with a solid 'rubber' impregnate and top layer. But those don't breathe.
Any woven fabric will wet out eventually, especially after much use, and then become cold and the breathing membrane will also let the outside water through to the inside.
Waxing will help. But then also reduce the breathability of what ever gortexy membrane is in the fabric layers.
I've got an old Paramo Adventure smock which, apart from being a bit small, does keep a good chunk of water off. However, I went for a hike yesterday in the Lake District and it was raining very heavily on and off all day. By half way through I was soaked, but I was warm and I was only wearing a lightweight synthetic base layer. This video has changed my perception of things and I think as out-doorsy people we just have to accept that at some point we will get wet but that doesn't matter as long as we stay as warm as possible
Interesting. I’m looking at Paramo now hence looking at these videos. Have you been using the reproofing washes they recommend?
Respect! My experience with waterproofs (spanning 50 years) is the same - they just delay the soak. And in recent decades they've just made them stiffer, thinner and more uncomfortable in general (I'm thinking of my stiff Marmot precip that likes to slide off my shoulders all the time). My best jacket is an REI anorak I bought around 40 years ago; amazingly the zippers still work! Not waterproof beyond half an hour, but very comfortable and winter friendly while XC skiing or hiking the dog in a blizzard. Winter is actually pretty dry and comfortable around here when it's below 20 F. I'm a sailor too, and that's a special challenge. You almost need rubberized gear, and two-piece rainsuits are "garbage" too. The water is coming at you from many directions ;-) My most comfortable wet-weather sail was in a Kokatat drysuit with rubber gaskets at the neck and wrists, tons of gore-tex with integral gore-tex booties. I was sailing a Laser sailboat in waves on Little Traverse Bay (Lake Michigan) and actually enjoyed the spray coming at me - totally dry and comfortable for an hour. But a drysuit is no answer for hiking - there's the sweat factor. Similar problems with gore-tex shoes/boots. They totally lose effectiveness when dirt gets ground into the gore-tex, and that doesn't take long. It's raining this morning here at the 'Tip of the Mitt' (Michigan), so just I took a 10-minute hike with my dog and got back before the socks got wet ;-)
I once bought a stout umbrella and took it with me on an 8 day trek through rainy Norway. Worked pretty well even in wind, and kept the waterproofs waterproof for longer. Eventually they were smashed by the wine though. But they were really useful while they lasted and kept our waterproofs waterproof for longer
Thank you for your thoughts! It's frustrating how many rain jacket reviews and opinions lack serious data to back them up. Coming from NW British Columbia, rain is very serious business. I don't have as much range of experience, but my partner and I have both had poor luck with Gortex's 2.5 layer fabrics in OR and Arcteryx jackets, and as you mentioned, careful washing and DWR spray applications only raise our hopes. The jackets currently start to soak through in within 15 minutes of anything over a drizzle, and were only good for an hour when brand new.
My sentiments EXACTLY. Since I retired 27yrs ago I have walked up to twice a week regularly across the UK and the Alps. During that time I have had at least 8 jackets all with spurious waterproofing credentials. Gore-tex, Event, Ceramic et al.The worst undoubtedly was Paramo, I get hot walking but the claimed “pump action” seemed to me to work in reverse!
The best jacket? My first one in 1997, a Blacks own brand, I still have it (for gardening and pottering)and even though it leaks it still outperforms my most recent purchases.
Few jackets were waterproof for longer than a year which tended to equate to no more than 8-10 downpours. Often I would removethem to find foam on the layer beneath.
In my early days of walking, the early 1950’s the best performing waterproofs were ex-Army oilskin gas capes! At 2s 6p (25p) two of them would see me through a year of walking. Although the material was not breathable it was voluminous enough to ventilate.
For many years I.have packed a heavy duty folding umbrella as did several members of my walking group.
One other aspect of walking jackets is that they have been taken over by the fashionistas hence unprotected zips, poor hoods with face lashing toggles, wrongly angled external pockets, and with the possible exception of a Berghaus jacket they are ultra short bum freezers. Short jackets might look sexier🙄 and be appropriate for climbing but they are not suited to serious walking in cold, wet conditions.
durable water repellent (dwr) It still needs to be changed quite often. Depending on how actively you used the thing. With a backpack 5kg or 15kg. As a whole, storms the mountains in the Himalayan style, renewing the repellent for each expedition. Each type of fabric and type of membrane holds the repellent differently. And there are 2 repellents.Based on PFC and without PFC ( PFC free)
The most honest video I have seen in ages! I'm based in Cornwall and I always run a nano puff as a mid then a gortex layer and that will last me most of the day (in winter) and if I'm out all day I swap out the gortex for a fresh coat. If my truck is close by that is.. In my experience no coat will last for more than a couple hours for a proper wet day in the uk 😅
So much that made me smile with recognition of similar experiences.
My theory is that the more breathable the fabric, the less durable. I have an Event jacket that was the first waterproof I've ever had that was so breathable I could walk uphill in the rain and stay dry - that stayed waterproof for at least a couple of months! I also have an H2No jacket that is as waterproof, but sweaty, today as it was when I bought it 20 years ago. In between, various GoreTex that are, well, in between.
In the end though, warm and wet is OK - you just have to learn to live with that when you go out in wet weather. For full-on winter though, pile and Pertex every time for me.
Video was quite entertaining and informative to the point of making me question my assumptions of what might or might not work for my situation. So many variables. I'm in Seattle and we have a similar climate to Wales, but I'm less active now so tend to do more urban walking or mildly strenuous day hikes. So I need to find a jacket that's fashionable enough (!) so I look my best (no poncho!), breathable enough so I don't get too hot or too cold when it's 50°F to 60°F, and able to withstand a steady drizzle. I keep my mini Davek umbrella around to wait out downpours. So my scenario is quite specific and differs from hiking / skiing / bicycling ... and all seem to have their unique challenges and their own typical climates.
Looks like I may have to make an educated guess and develop my own experience. I will probably start out with Seattle's own Outdoor Research and go from there. But I did love your thought-provoking video enough to subscribe!
Cheers!
First time watching your vids. Naturally funny and good way with words. Useful To hear your POV - I wondered why my old goretex running jacket soaks through at some point - now I know its same for everyone. Patagonia you have seems good - it was a search on their torrent shell that brought me to your video! Nice to see a bit of classic Misty wales in the rain. Cheers. Pete
Finely someone else with the same view point. I owned Norrona,Fjallraven,Arcteryx,Northface,patagonia and Paramo. None. I repeat NONE of them last !!! Just got a Parmo Cascada. DWR lasted 30 minutes, wet within the hour. The jacket is 4 days old. Membrane jackets stay waterproof for longer but you sweat a lot more and they tend to be stiff and noisy. I walk on dartmoor with my two dogs twice a day. Most are wet days. I would like to see a Panorama investigation into the waterproof industry. Because they don't stay waterproof for long
Dwr is to stop the outer protection layer wetting out, which stops the membrane breathing. Paramo don't claim to be waterproof, their USP is that they keep you warm when soaked & body heat will dry out the jacket.
@@kierenkd There's a label on the arm of the jacket that says waterproof
@@kierenkd It says on my Paramo jacket waterproof. They say on their website waterproof. So I thought it would be waterproof
Aren't all these brands using their own fabrics and not Gore Tex? I've got only goretex stuff and is the only one to keep me dry. The only one that Igot soaked in was a snowboard trouser after weeks of use and after reproofing it was good again.
I have a 13 year old Montura 'Guide Jacket' made with eVent, with a full pump liner like Paramo use. It's been bombproof. Sure I've washed and re-proofed it loads of times, but that's all part of maintaining it. It's still keeping me dry in the colder months (bit heavy for summer use). I do run hot though, so I'm considering taking the Paramo plunge to see what the fuss is about.
If you run hot, I reckon Paramo could be a good shout :)
You are spot on about Paramo, I wear mine when I need to cope with cold weather. Otherwise I find weight counts, most lightweights need a fleece to absorb rain and sweat. However, only been smashed once wearing a lightweight Barricade from Rohan, plus was I got my money back. Cheers Bernard Mitchinson
The Arc'Teryx jacket I purchased recently is the best waterproof I've owned (3-L Goretex), but it is finally starting to wet out after two years. Definitely find better waterproofing in the 3+ layer shells, although all of them start to wet out about the same. Only difference is whether I start feeling wet inside afterwards. I work outside in the PNW USA, so they get put through a lot of use too. Ultimately, you have to re-treat your jackets with DWR coating on the outside periodically to maintain beading so that the membrane still breathes, but I only have occasional luck with successfully renewing that DWR treatment. If I could find a more consistent way to retreat the DWR, that would be the ticket
1. Machine wash your garment as described in the wash instructions. Line dry your garment or tumble dry it on a warm, gentle cycle.
Once it is dry, tumble dry your garment for 20 minutes to reactivate the durable water-repellent (DWR) treatment on the outer fabric.
2. If unable to tumble dry, iron the dry garment on the gentle setting (warm, no steam) by placing a towel or cloth between the garment and the iron. This will help reactivate the DWR treatment on your garment’s outer fabric.
These steps will restore the factory durable water repellent treatment and water may bead up on your outerwear. If it does not, it’s probably time to apply new DWR to your jacket.
Sometimes, the factory applied treatment can no longer be reactivated. In that case, apply a new water-repellent treatment available as a pump-spray or wash-in product to the garment's outer fabric. I used Nikwax wash in products. Works well.
Just go Bufallo! I ditched the waterproofs years ago and very rarely wear one. Usually just to nip out with the dog round the block! Otherwise it’s my Active Shirt or Active Lite Shirt. I’ve worn them in all weathers and when on day hikes or through hikes. I’ve done the UK Coast to Coast twice and lived in my Active Shirt for a week in November in Scotland on a Bushcraft course. I walked in it, ate in it and slept in it! Plus, there’s none of that layering “jacket on/jacket off” nonsense when the weather changes.
You do get wet in heavy rain, but because of tge “wetsuit effect” you don’t get cold, and that’s the most important bit. It drys out when it stops raining, as you walk too! Try it, you’ll not got back to layers.
Love that you reply to everyone! I have a 20 + year old Goretex (with storm flap) that has been retaped. Bullet proof but for ingress at the face and hand holes. I don't find that Goretex leaks when the outer fabric wets out. I reckon it's just more condensation due to the colder fabric on the inside. I run hot so condensation is always my problem, so I have a Paramo now, but not had chance to test it thoroughly yet.
I try my best!
Once wetted out they definitely lose a lot of they’re breathability, but it does feel like it’s kind of the beginning of the end once they’ve done that. Good effort on retaping the seams, good idea!
What do you think of the Paramo by now?
Nice vid but adding my 2 cent about Paramo since i have been using their garment exclusively for the past 5 years and I am based in Scotland. Contrary to what you said, paramo technology does not rely on the heat you generate, that is gortex. GT relies on your heat to transform your sweat into vapour and that steam through the GT membrane. The issue is when like me (a photographer) you stop your effort and stay still for a while. Your body stops heating up and you are still sweaty but no longer generate steam so you are stuck with your wet sweat. That is GT for you. GT is great as long as you keep moving. Paramo on the other hand, relies on its inner layer that acts like animal fur that pushes the fine water droplet from sweat to be pushed away towards the outside. The outer layer of the garment is relying on a DWR treament as you rightly pointed out. There is a reason why Paramo is the official jacket for the scottish mountain rescue units. It enable them to be sheltered from the element as they are in the effort but when they arrive at their rescue point where they are less active, they sweat is pushed out while keeping them protected from the element. I hope this helps clarifying.
I agree with this comment. It reflects my experience with both Paramo and GTX.
I find Paramo garments are more comfortable because the material is softer and quieternal.
Had my paramo Alta 20 years now (still looks new) and I've never been wet in it, even when it completely wets out. Not particularly a fanboy, it's shapeless, too hot in anything but cold weather, and bulky but on an 8 hour 3 peaks hike in relentless rain it didn't let a drop in. I also have paclite jackets but always find I'm wetter with them from sweating than I would be if I hadn't bothered. I guess I run hot!
Dont know how I missed this, love your style Jez,not ranting at all,
Very interesting and informative... I love old school berghaus jackets.. I have quite a few and I mean jackets from the late 80s...they have never ever let me down in some absolute torrential rain... I would never sell or part with them... They don't make them like that anymore... I especially love the old Mera Peak and glacier peak...... The new stuff I don't like.. But I do like paramo. Lol
Ace videos, Jez. This is one of my favourite topics of conversation (sad but true) as like you I think water proofs don't work after a few wears which is a bit of a joke when you're paying several hundred quid for them! In the last year I've got myself some Paramo (I think I'm old enough to wear it now!) and I really like it due to the lack of faffing; just put it on and you're sorted. Definitely to warm for summer though.
Nick Livesey Photographing the Snowdonia Mountains Its called advancing wisdom Nick, not age!1🤔🤣😂
Glad you like 'em Nick! Can't beat a bit of geeky gear chat, I'm not quite old enough to embrace the Paramo yet...!
I’ve done the paramo thing and tbh my general experience with it was that it did outperform membrane technology but I moved on because of the weight and bulk (when it’s dry and too warm to wear). Lowe Alpine did something called triple point ceramic years ago that was also pretty good. As for goretex and the like, you’re spot on that once the outer has wetted out, it’s downhill from there.
I've worked as a mountain guide for the last two summers and of course some rainstorms caught us on the trail. My rain gear was bought from decathlon, my jacket was 10000 mm water resistant and my pants just 2000 mm wr. They worked really well on keeping the water out and sometimes also the heat, but I paid on the gear 40$, not some big money on goretex. Depending on the trail location and how muck you've got till the first refuge sometimes you have to accept that you will get wet, no matter what type of waterproof you've got on you.
I feel much the same about breathable membrane waterproofs, which is why, after many years of faffage with layers, I now wear Buffalo kit (made in Sheffield, I believe.) which uses a pertex outer with a wicking pile inner. One garment, worn next to the skin.Look them up. Essential kit, used by those in the know, military, climbers, mountain rescue, and civilians. Remarkable stuff!
All the best, and don't fall off the mountain...
The problem with Buffalo is unless it's very cold they are so hot! It's good kit I own a few bits but very often it really suits the weather etc.
Out in Scottish Highlands every weekend so plenty rain. Gore-tex hardshell for me - tends to keep the rain out even in horizontal rain but condensation is a problem as difficult to vent in wild weather.
So the gortex is not doing it's thing then? Kind of pointless than isn't it? Might as well go for the old full rubber raincoats.
@@FlexDRG you would need an HVAC system to cope with my sweating. Having worked on fishing boats wearing 'rubber' waterproofs, I'll take goretex all day long.
Great video, so many of your thoughts fit with my own experience. It's true that friends always claim that their own waterproof gear works 100% even when I have had the same thing and know it doesn't.
Haha that's always amusing!
Columbia OutDry extreme will never wet out. Doesn't use DWR. The membrane is on the outside. But one downside is how tough it is...My GF has been wearing an OutDry Extreme jacket and carrying a camera bag on her right shoulder. After a couple of years of use, the camera bag strap has rubbed the membrane away. I fixed it with a Gore Tex patch. But if you dont carry a bag, the stuff is great. Their shoes will only be waterproof for about 2 years...then the glue separates and water leaks in from where the sole is stuck on.
I love it In the rain, keeps the trails quiet. Plus I love gear, summer walking In the dry is boring as hell 😁
Ive solved this issue by always carrying spare layers for underneath - after a few hours you gotta change out into a fresh long sleeve layer underneath the shell no matter what - i think that’s how you maintain maximum effect -at least that’s how i do it -ALSO for all my rain hikers out there I switched years ago to hunting style rubber boots /snake boots AND THEY WORK LIKE A CHARM -they get warm but each step pumps most of the hot air out of the boot and they are completely water proof -i highly recommend giving it a try :)
Agree. That is how i combat the uselessness of my gtx shell.
Recently I just started wearing heavy wool (a swandri bush shirt for the kiwis here) when I know it's gonna get wet and not have high winds. It keeps me warm whilst wet, warmer than I feel in waterproofs, without building up sweat, or anything. Doesnt work so well when wind gets involved. I find the wind just rips right through it when it's wet.
Or more realistically I often just let myself get wet in my base layers. I live in NZ, and I live by the saying "cotton kills", so I never wear anything I would not be comfortable getting soaked in. Just so long as I have a dry place to go, be it a bivy or a cabin, and some dry clothes for sleeping and resting in I am happy.
I work outside and run very cold but I wear Paramo 3/4 jacket and trousers without issues. Funny thing being, when it's pissing it down with rain the Paramo always makes me look like a drowned rat however, once I've taken it off I'm actually dry. The only issue being is if you sit down wearing the trousers you will get a wet arse because the pressure forces the water through. Lastly, my Paramo Jacket has storm flaps to cover the zips and one thing for sure, the Paramo gear won't win any stylish competitions because it makes you look like your grandad on a rambling trip.
the best waterproof I ever had was a cheap Primark wool coat, 6 hours in sideways rain on the Weymouth coast and it never got through the fabric. I haven't tried another since because I still can't believe it
When it's cold and windy, or raining in autumn, winter or spring, I wear a double layer, Ventile jacket. Heavy [as hell] but I remain dry, warm and comfortable. I reproofed it with Storm wash and proofer after two years. Not as good as new but it still works. The majority of the jacket still beads well. The pocket flaps don't. Lightweight shells wouldn't last long brushing though prickly brambles in forests! I find man-made fabrics far too sweaty.
Very good points Jez, I have recently became a strong supporter of using nikwax / grangers ' re proofing' stuff. They dont actually make your jackets waterproof again but they restore the DWR ( the stuff that makes the water bead) this can add a good bit of time on your jackets, by stopping them wetting out so quickly. I work in a outdoor shop and its almost ALWAYS on offer too, for £7 or so getting another few months out of a waterproof is a good deal to me!
That's a good way of looking at it. Even that stuff doesn't work as well as it used to, the chemicals they used to used are banned these days. They definitely help though!
Whenever I use Nikwax I wonder what is in it. To me it looks and smells like PVA used on interior walls.
After years of experimenting I use now use Paramo and it is the ONLY one that that never let a drop of water through despite being out in some humungus storms when walking the dogs. Yes they do run a little warm but I like being a bit toasty and if it isn't that cold I just adjust the base layers accordingly. They last forever if you look after them and clean and reproof with NIkwax periodically!. It is also nice to have a soft flexible fabric that doesn't rustle and crackle. If you are wildlife watching they are much quieter than most of the rivals.
Made me chuckle as I did that exact walk in October in horrific conditions and had the exact thought of wtf is the point of water proofs as enough water had penetrated it was running down my legs and saturating my boots via my socks. Good times.
Interesting video. I’m currently using a north face apex flex goretex jacket and love it. But it was not good enough to last on an hours commute on bike without getting saturated . I was pretty dry on the inside but felt very cold . I think I run cold anyway
I am keen to may try north faces newish futurlight stuff which is claimed just as good as goretex but more breathable
Totally agree. Owned Arteryx 1Theta SVX,2Norrona Recon,2 Fjalraven Parka. All returned under warranty
I have a hybrid goretex / poly cotton jacket from Lundhags, with pit zips. It is gotetex on the hood, upper back and shoulders, the rest is polycotton with nikwax dwr applied. I find it a good compromise. I leave it on until I feel the rain gets properly hard and sustained, then I throw on a cheap baggy waterproof jacket. Baggy is key, as it breathes more. Pit zips also are huge bonus
I wear a goretex hunting jacket made by norrona for cold winter hunting. -10 to -30 celcius here in Canada. I use it to stop the winter completely and keep in warmth. In winter when it's cold it breathes much better than in summer. Obviously not used for water proofness but still usefull. In raining conditions a poncho makes more sense to me
hey nice to watch your vid,,, I have been wearing goretex in a multitude of brands , patagonia , berghaus, haglofs blackdiamond et al ,, I jumped ship last year to Paramo, was a big hit as they arnt cheap as you know. Hands down on a cold wet day Paramo winswithout doubt.I thought no way can this be waterproof but Paramo for me has been the best move . Im 58 and been wild camping in snowdonia for 50 years.I live inWest Wales so its also had a hammering on a daily basis. Keep up the good work
Interesting video
Well at times we're just softcocks. What was worn before PVC
Remember pack macks, or was that before your time
Cheers
doggo looks so happy
Always!
Love the views! I have gone back to my old fashioned non breathable Altus rain coat. Its more suitable for casual walking for many hours. My Goretex jackets wetted out after 3-4 hours. I bring a spare light fleece to change into if the sweat builds up in the Altus coat.
I agree with you. I've tried everything and the only thing that works is a relatively new Goretex (or other membrane with DWR coating). The lifespan of the membrane is short and reproofing with Nikwax generally has limited success.
Goretex shoes are rubbish. The lining usually gives up after one season's wear.
Replacing Goretex jackets is expensive so I try to keep my old ones going as long as possible.
Having slagged Goretex off I have to admit that my first Goretex jacket that I bought back in the early days of the technology was a game changer for me. I used to work outdoors and having a breathable waterproof jacket enabled me to stay relatively dry and not soak in my own sweat.
What I've found that helps in keeping comfortable is to wear a Merino wool baselayer and synthetic fleece jacket or sweater under my jacket. What happens is that when the jacket eventually starts to wet out the fleece gets damp but if I stay active the heat from my body helps wick away the moisture. Then if it gets really bad the Merino wool layer keeps me warm even if I'm damp.
umbrella - best bit of kit I ever bought for the hill, keeps the sun off you and keeps the rain off you!
I love my Mera Peak when the photons are super soggy. Damn heavy though.
Bought a IV two years ago, and a V a year later as a spare as liked the IV so much.
The V is the better shell. Great storm flaps!
One day I will look for a jacket with a similar design in a lightweight fabric. Water resistant zips.... I know I'd never trust them.
Your mistrust of the zips is well founded!
Years ago when skint, I bought a regatta with a hydro head of 20,000. £80 it cost me but the guy in the shop said it would do just as well as the £300 ones.... well he wasn't wrong! 6yrs I used it for and its still in mint condition. I've recently 'upgraded' to a £300 paramo and to be brutally honest, I've not noticed any improvement yet other than the hood! 🤷🏻♂️
That's an expensive hood!
I've definitely had some bargain bits of kit in the past like that. Had an OEX jacket that was a freebie but loads cheaper than most of my stuff and it was actually pretty good, it's often the little things like hoods and drawcords that make a little difference but a massive £££ difference!
Wore my paramo helki up Snowdon a few months back in torrential rain and high winds and it kept me dry the whole time, my fleece top underneath was just slightly damp. Had a North Face quest for bout 5 yrs and it was great but in the end was wetting out tried to reproof it but just made it worse, been using paramo now bout 2 yrs love the comfort.
Reall enjoyed that little walk. That was good info. Thanks from Ontario.
Can’t wait to get back to Snowdonia 😢 I think there are a lot of misconceptions about Paramo normally from people who haven’t tried it properly or expect it to work like a membrane based jacket. It needs to be thought of as a comfort system rather than a waterproof barrier. It’s constantly moving liquid away from you, it’s not using heat but the liquid moving from a higher pressure area to a lower.
I’m pretty skinny and run cold, I’ve found it very easy to regulate temperature in paramo through the venting. Pretty much something I’d wear all day without taking off, I’ve used the newer Velez jacket with the mesh pump liner in everything from full winter mountaineering to warm showery +20c days. It’s important to use the right base layer under paramo, something like their Grid layer or montane Dart, if any moisture does penetrate its rapidly removed away from your skin. The Cascada II trousers are superb also, not like any other waterproofs I’ve used before. Sorry for the excessive wordage 😆 Cheers, Paul.
I don't think I'm in a position to mention excessive wordage with my last few months of waffle on RUclips!!!
Glad to hear you've found a system that works for you :)
In my opinion, Gore tex is massively overrated, they absolutely do not stop you sweating, in fact I’d go as far to say they don’t let any vapour out. I’ve found Paramo works a lot better than you’ve given it credit and actually holds out the rain very well but sweat is always the enemy and it’s that rather than rain coming in that normally makes you wet. I do always buy gore tex lined boots though and they never leak surprisingly.
I love your videos generally but here I think you're wrong. If you wash it often and re-apply the DWR it will perform as it did when you first bought the waterproof jacket. The most common thing is that people don't wash it enough and when it gets dirty and the DWR goes away the outer fabric will absorb the water and that will affect the breathability tremendously. Therefore the condensation from the inside will make you feel wet from your own sweat.
Also, if you wash it regularly it will last you years longer than if you don't. Sweat and dirt will corrode the glued seams and the jacket will eventually be useless. If you take care of your waterproof I promise you that you can get more out of it than a couple of years.
Buy an Arc'teryx 3-layer Gore-Tex Pro jacket if you want something that will last forever or buy a TNF Futurelight jacket if you want the best breathability on the market.
Keep up the good work with the climbing related videos though!
I think you make a good point about regular washing and re-application.
You also mention north face futurelight. I’ve been researching this. Seems like there are mixed reviews. A guy on RUclips said his did not work straight out of the box , then he got a replacement and got the same bad results. He also tried adding DWR but only helped a little bit .
Another guy commented his expensive futurlight jacket was not waterproof.
So the jury is out on the stuff. I would like to give it a try as another RUclips demonstrated it’s waterproofness standing in the shower . I guess you have to try it for yourself .
Goretex shake dry stuff (2 layers) gets good reviews
Just ordered an Acrteryx 3 layer Gore Tex jacket a couple days ago, hope you're right because it cost a lot!
Can you explain please i thought washing it would degrade the quality of the waterproofing ?
@@ourclarioncall You always see Futurelight stuff at a discount. Can´t be very popular - and why doesn´t TNF reveal their waterproof rating?
@@stefanjohansson-cw1ro I’m sticking with goretex for the time being.
Paramo and buffalo, works for me as a “run warmer”, great views and great video. Subbed.
Thanks for the sub!
maybe a silly question but would a karrimor 10000 mm jacket stand up anywhere near as well as gortex that doesn’t show how many mm it can withstand like a berghaus jacket
thanks
Goretex will normally be 20,000mm HH or higher I think, so should be more waterproof.
Six of one, half a dozen of the other when it comes to wet weather, neither is perfect, I've always preferred a shell. However, this winter i decided to take a punt and bought a Paramo Enduro jacket, and it's been an absolute revelation when it comes to winter conditions. Just wore it all day with a t-shirt underneath in some pretty full on Scottish winter conditions, and never too warm on cold, just right. I'd say it's the perfect winter mountaineering jacket. Shame it would likely be too warm outside of winter though, so I'll prob stick with shells for 3 season use. Longevity is another factor, and Paramo wins that hands down
I don't do a lot of winter stuff these days, but it does seem like that's where Paramo makes a bit more sense. You're definitely right about the longevity, rip a Paramo, sew it up and job done, as well as the whole reproofing concept.
NOT clickbait. You were right the first time: Waterproof jackets ARE rubbish.
They keep you warm; not dry.
In fact, a non-waterproof windbreaker is drier in light/warm conditions.
Old 60/40 parkas were even better. Pity they are not available anymore.
I’ve been a bit of a brand snob of late, got a soft shell paramo and rab jacket la sportiva t5 shoes really good gear but I think the more budget dare2b are really good,bought some of their waterproof trousers with 20/20 20,000 head and never stopped raining today up catbell Lake District and completely dry once taken off, I’m very tempted to try a jacket of there’s with basically the same material, very reasonable pricing but brand snobbery may put some off
So many of us have been through the same experiences looks like. Once DWR starts to go on membranes like Gore Tex, eVent etc, off we go reading the blogs and buying the sprays. All that time and dosh wasted. Yeah, forget Gore Tex and the like. Paramo Analogy needs DWR too so forget that. I bought a Columbia Outdry jacket and it works for me. Breathability figures below top end but as it never ever wets out, is as breathable effectively. For light rain, wool or directional fleece and windproof from Paramo does it. Wool on it's own even, merino or traditional sweater, stays warm when damp. Buffalo principle in a way. Ventile seems very cool and wholesome but it takes days to dry and weighs a ton when sodden. But forget those DWR reliant membranes. I've kept a Bergans Dermizax nx that's all as it works slightly differently and DWR isn't as crucial, best design too. Columbia Outdry ain't perfect but you could stand under a shower for hours and then shake it dry. I feel a bit better now. Phew.
Hilarious.
I prefer Goretex, although it works better in low humidity climates (like skiing). I always wear a merino base layer, or/and even a lightweight merino jersey, as it wicks far better than technical sports layers. I run hot, so Paramo is too hot and all the venting would need to be unzipped most of the day.....
I use the rubber rain gear they sell for people who do landscaping and stuff. It has vents with flaps over them in the chest and back, and they're fairly baggy so breath reasonably well. They're very chearp - $40 or so for a jacket here in Canada, $70 for the jacket and pants combo. They will never wet out, never soak through, don't hold water so dry very quickly, can be repaired with duct tape, and are fairly durable. I've used them in up to 5 days of all day hiking or kayaking in near-constant downpour on the westcoast of Vancouver Island and not a drop gets inside other than maybe up the cuffs or down the neck a bit. I've even been kayaking in chop so steep and in an overloaded kayak (I had the water and pots and stove etc for the group because I was one of the stronger paddlers) I had greenwater (solid water, not just spray) comin up to my armpits when waves went by and after two hours I was still dry insdie (water washed off the jacket, over the sprayskirt and back in the ocean). I did get water up my cuffs when I didn't lift my wrists high enough to clear a wave but that wasn't the jacket's fault.
Interesting, what's the make?
Just what I was looking for - thanks 👍
Paramo is especially good for winter, and especially dry and drizzly days which are the only times I wear it both hiking and biking. It will always keep the rain out for the 40 mins to an hour I am on my bike. I have also been pleased with Gore Shakedry and Columbia Outdry. Outdry has been excellent considering I bought it new for 50 quid on eBay. Both run without DWR, which is a total con - or the fact that it can be re-applied in a wash. It never works well apart from Paramo which I suspect is mainly the furry part of the pump liner for which it appears Nikwax was designed. Does anyone really know how the big companies initially DWR their products?
I think the DWR does work and you can reapply it, but it's never as good, sadly.
From what I understand, DWR was better some years ago, before certain nasty chemicals got banned...
@@JBMountainSkills As I currently understand it both Arcteryx and Patagonia still use the nasty chemicals for their factory applied DWR. They still recommend putting their jackets in a tumble dryer to reactivate it after a wash. eu.patagonia.com/gb/en/our-footprint/dwr-durable-water-repellent.html
I like my Endurance Event cycling jacket and have been in some pretty heavy rain in it, was cycling though some maybe the temperature gradient made a difference.
Finally somebody has said it. Absolutely agree sir 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
Hiked (5-6 hours/day) with a then four-year-old gortex jacket for 10 days on the Annapurna trail during the monsoon (June-July); I was dry despite walking in the rain all day long except for 2 days in the rain shadow area. I even have my camera (not waterproof) in my jacket pocket. Since then, I value a good waterproof jacket. Didn't see any of the Himalayas, but walking in the verdant forest and the layers of plants and greenness was surreal. I had the whole trail to myself for most of the days. But the leeches cover you if you are not careful.
Well.
I have X army goretex jacket,cost me £23, for lightweight emergency,iam trying a plastic Mack,£3.50,I reckon these will protect me as good as any £2/3 hundred pound jacket.
I have layers to keep warm also.
I don't know why more hikers don't wear poncho's. You can get a heavy duty military grade ripstop poncho that keeps your head, torso, backpack, arms and upper legs dry for like £30. Plus it can double as a tarp/tent, groundsheet or bivvy bag, the breathability is better AND you save a small fortune.
any names for where to buy a good poncho ?
We need a wearable umbrella. Like a stiff poncho you can rest over your stuff that won't blow away and is hands free
That’d be ace! I do actually use an umbrella occasionally, great in the right weather!
I carry a plastic rain jacket, like a kagool as back up on long wet days.
I go old tech 1987 barbour bedale with poppered on hood and a microfleece sweater, if its cold I go to a norge shirt and a hoodie, nothing fancy yet warm and bone dry, if it aint broke dont fix it!
Do you have any experiences with Rab? I’ve heard the Latok Extreme is very good.
Hi, and what about the fabrics that are 100 % waterproof with the trade off of not being breathable at all. I know this is not a popular choice for enthusiasts, probably not even accepted as a proper hiking gear in general but it does have its pros: 100% waterproof, doesn't deteriorate, is cheap, light and easy to pack. And it is possible to manage the inside moisture build up with a bit of effort, open here and there for a quick vent, pants particularly are easy to vent with the side zips along the leg... or use it for the worst, short term downpours etc... I've got inexpensive pants from berghause and packable jacket from regata.. and yeah. 100% waterproof.. true I don't go for the super challenging hikes where I'd sweat for hours, but neither do most of the people, in the rain I mean.. should that kind of downpour happen.. well you'll most likely slow down the pace anhway.. just another tool in the box.. when used right can be super useful.
I'm currently planning to buy a gore Tex.. or similar jacket.. but should I be gought in a storm.. my cheap regatta is gonna be near by and go over the top anyway..
Hi, so in your experience if you where starting out in hiking in the hills in all seasons how would you dress ? As I'm starting out and think about the typical layering system then I see these buffalo/montane smocks and now are torn between them
Many thanks great vid 😃
I'm not really a buffalo fan. They're not waterproof, so if you wear one without a proper hardshell then you'll get soaked, you might stay warmish if you're active, but you will be wet. They're heavy and not very packable either, I think they were superseded long ago by more modern stuff... but some people still love them!
Base layer, mid layer/s of soft-shell or primaloft type stuff, hardshell for me.
Cheers for your views,take care 😀
Tried all sorts over the years. British weather is a very hard test for kit cos its so changeable but often wet. There is no escaping you need a mix of stuff in your rucksack. I say that even though I concur with the buffalo strategy but they get really hot. I do have an old Berghaus that's good. Agree you won't be able to keep completely dry.
I use my waterproofs for 3-4 weeks over a year, after it they just hang in the wardrobe. I never use mountaneering hardshells in the city. And in the end, they last for a really, really long time.
If you them every day for your work, well. 2 years is already good.
Interesting video and I tend to agree waterproof clothing only goes so far. My solution is I carry a Rab Silponcho its light and very waterproof. It packs down quite small and just comes out when the rain gets heavy. Obviously not breathable but its open at the bottom so has air circulation through it but best of all it covers practically all of me inc rucksack and most of my trousers so they stay dry as well..
Makes a good groundsheet to boot. Its like a miniature tent.
Agreed, I used to use a cycling cape, great as long as not too windy,
Cags only lasting 2 years? I've got a 15+year old goretex (Mammut IIRC) jacket which is still entirely waterproof (except for the bit that gets in the face hole when it's really grim). I have recetnly tried a lightweight Pertex shield jacket which was great for about 18 months but then the membrane wore off the inside and now it's just a windproof. The problem with the old jacket is that it's long and big and heavy. Great in winter or proper mountains but annoying to carry around. I'd really like more good info on longevity vs material type/design/weight/cost. If there is such a thing as a modern short jacket that is reasonably light but will still do 6+ years I'd like to know about it.
Love the honesty here, a change from people promoting ‘their’ brand.
Still using my Burghaus Gortex jacket from 25 years ago... complete with storm flaps and velcro closures on cuffs. Perfect!
Most of my gear has been gore tex, ME or alpkit. They all have a finite lifespan, so the question for me really is... is it worth spending big bucks on a premium brand shell or is it better to buy cheap and more frequently. Not ecologically sound (which is important to me) .... does the real premium stuff last longer?
I think there's a sweet spot somewhere in the middle. The cheap stuff does tend to be a bit rubbish. I'm a massive fan of Patagonia kit but it definitely comes at a premium. I happy to pay that because of the company ethos etc, but I don't think it really lasts any longer than stuff a little cheaper.
JB Mountain Skills , agreed I’ve gone from arc’teryx to ME to Alpkit with no discernible difference in lifespan. My current Alpkit jacket (definition) has seen me through several weeks in the best scottish winters and it was half the price of the arc’teryx.
Hey Jez,
Out of interest what waterproof trousers do you have? Need a new pair, for the longer legged gentleman...
Yo! ArcTeryx Stingers, I think. They're ok, definitely long enough though!
@@JBMountainSkills awesome thanks, I'll take a look. Want Patagonia ideally but I think my legs are too long
The most honest review ive seen totally agree there only water proof for so long mine held out for 2 hrs when it was new now half the time
I carry a micro umbrella. If it's not windy, the umbrella takes the strain off the jacket, you just look a tad eccentric. However the umbrella really comes into its own hiking in the sun.
Tried most gear. Only water gear I can totally trust is vass Tex,breathable rubber.
There's a 3rd option which I find increasingly attractive. It uses non-breathing waterproof fabrics, but in garments designed to maximise venting. Basically, it's a shaped poncho that encloses your body and your pack tightly enough not to flap in wind. That way the air can circulate freely. Doesn't wet out, even in days of steady rain. Obviously, this is for walking, not for climbing. But in my experience this approach is cheap, light, failsafe, long-lasting and just as effective as your fancy £500 jacket once the DWR starts to wear off.
Totally agree.
I have yet to try my newly bought £16 poncho but it makes total sense to me.
Just ordered a Snugpak Enhanced patrol poncho that’s arriving tomorrow.
I recon this and my Rab borealis soft shell will have me sorted in active conditions,
And the poncho and my Swanndri mosgiel woollen bush shirt when at camp.
Hi, I have been thinking about this option for a long time, I would hugely appreciate your experiences with it.
Did you try Columbia outdry waterproof jackets
What about ponchos? Waterproof and totally breathable. Have you consider doing a review of a outdoor capable poncho?
Would be fun to watch 😀😀
Not something I've ever used I'm afraid!
I don't climb but I tried a poncho once on a very wet windy day but never again because the wind whistles under the poncho and fills it with air making it act like a parachute which tries to drag your sorry arse out in to the moving traffic
Buy a good brand. Arc'teryx hard shells are the best for me by some way. They never leak, and I like the Gore-Tex way of things.....which is to say I prefer to stay slightly in the warmer side of things, and the little microclimate works better for me.
Key is a good layering system. If your base layer really works, then that will help the jacket immensely. Taking the pressure off, if you like.
Paramo stuff is way too hot for me. Useless 3/4 seasons.
Was really disappointed with my patagonia torrentshell jacket. Got soaked in moderate rain. Since sold it. My (far) cheaper columbia pouring omni tech jacket is way better. Columbia stuff is really solid and fairly priced.
Great vid! Liked the 'warm and wet or cold and wet' comment. Made me laugh.
Glad you liked it!
Interesting you mention the new 5.10 tennies at the end. I have a pair and love them, as you say sticky as anything, but they are nowhere near as hard wearing as pre Adidas 5.10 access which is what they replace. I wore out my old pair of access’ and replaced them with the new tennies, comfortable and sticky but just won’t last as long. Shame really!
The price to pay for super sticky rubber :(
Not sure if ull still see the comments now. I agree gore tex is good till face fabric wets out, then doesnt breath and you get wet. I now wear buffalo system which i find really good for autum winter. Have you tried it? Is it similar to patagonia stuff?
I did use some Buffalo stuff many years ago, and some similar Montane kit. Does what it does very well but I always found it pretty heavy and needed a water proof anyway. For me it's been superseded by Primaloft type kit, but if it works for you, ace!
Patagonia is mostly a more regular style layering system.
@@JBMountainSkills i agree it is a lot heavier. I use it mainly winter and traditional layering rest of the year.
On the way down from Pen Y Fan today I saw somebody walking up with an umbrella. Fair play. 😂 Great video with an honest appraisal of water proofs. Simon
In non-high wind conditions, I am moving over to an umbrella, a poncho which allows ventilation from the underside (some even have neck and pit vents), and a rain kilt/skirt (similar to a poncho which raps round your waist) paired with a pair of gaiters for the lower half. Low tech and low cost but dry and well ventilated for those wet but non-high wind days.
An umbrella can be the way forwards when the wind allows!
Is that the Stretch Rainshadow you're wearing? Knarly colour that waterproof
That yellow one is a Cloud Ridge :)
Had a ca $90 Northface rain jacket for 8 years being solid keeping me dry on my bike while also wearing a backpack usually. Had to get a new one and tried a $ 220 by Mountain Equipment which basically was useless after 12 months … garbage.