The Truth About Rain Coats They Don't Want You To Know
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- Опубликовано: 27 сен 2024
- Gore-Tex dominates the outdoor waterproof coat scene. In this video I look at the difference between the marketing hype and the science-based reality of staying dry in wet weather.
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And @wrong_trousers for quite possibly the funniest video on the internet on 'gorpcore': • The Darkside of Gorpcore
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Great Video!
Thanks so much!
Thank you very much for the clarification and the easily understandable sketches!
Sailors used to wear completely air- and water-tight jackets BUT with wider tailored sizes to pump out humid air by moving your arms and upper body. This way you could actually have more moisture ventilated out of your jacket than any membrane would ever be capable of.
There are actually environments and use cases where Gore-Tex performs exactly as advertised: snow and cold. During wintertime you are unlikely to face 100% relative humidity, so the membrane can do its thing without much issue. This is reflected in their marketing imagery as well.
Yeah there are situations it will work well. But until they add a cigarette packet style warning telling everyone it will not work in normal rain I will keep banging this drum!
If you live in Ireland, winter is wet and cold and super humid so cold doesn’t always = dry. 90% relative humidity is standard during the winter months here
But when it is cold enough to have snow, and the relative humidity is super low, it's pretty unlikely to rain no? So why do you need the waterproof fabric rather than just something the snow doesn't stick to?
@@rorylong314 isnt the rest of the year wet and humid aswell?
@@ersetzbar. Pretty much. The wetness varies but the humidity doesn’t really. The humidity is what makes our winters, even though it’s rarely below -5c, seem really cold. Equally our summers rarely even get to 30 but sap your energy with the heat and humidity.
When I was a teenage I was given a set of Gore-Tex waterproofs while I was with the air cadets for our field training and outdoor camps. They were very high quality and I loved that I could essentially sit in a puddle and stay dry. However, they were never very breathable and if I was trying to do anything at all with them on, or use any energy, I would get drenched in sweat underneath. Which of course was very bad if it was also cold outside. Being sweaty and cold is a disaster. And if it was hot outside then I’d get sweaty even faster, which was just really uncomfortable. Basically I learnt that Gore-Tex was good for very heavy down pours, I’d put it on and leave it undone, zip it up properly when the rain got harder and try to stay put so not to get sweaty. Then when the rain had passed I’d undo it, then finally put it away again. It was amazing for that very specific use case.
I could never have worn it just casually as a jacket, it’s really no good for that. You just become drenched in sweat very quickly. I’ve noticed this fashion trend of people wearing Gore-Tex these days and I find it so odd because I know it’s completely useless for every day use. I just think about what a gross sweaty mess everybody must be under it.
this confirms that a poncho would be better in the rain and doesn't cost a kidney
Gore-tex is too limited. I love it snowboarding, but that's about it. I don't like it for boots because when it does get wet it stays wet forever which sucks on a long haul. And don't get me started about it's "breathability" once it is under a backpack. I pick a silnylon or any number of other products with good venting options any day over Gore-tex. And I used to have a survival training school in Vancouver Canada, which is in a rainforest and most of my classes were from Nov-Mar, which is the rainy season.
I have book on "olden day uses for plants'' somewhere that claimed cooking linen cloth in water with birch leafs would yield a water resistant fabric that would work great over a woolen sweater. Never got to try it though, but would be interested in the results.
Interesting!!
It is good for Finnish winter when it is a blizzard outside, and you get wet pretty fast because of the snow. But it is quite not comfortable for hiking and sweating in autumn or chill spring.
Yeah it does seem snow is a good use case for this stuff!
As a lifelong backpacker and someone that lives 20 minutes from a ski resort in the Rocky Mountains and skis/snowboards 6-months out of the year...I've had great experience with Gore-Tex. I insist on it for my boots, pants and coats...but also buy pants and coats with long side zips to use on warm days . I'm also a mechanical engineer. I keep experimenting with other "water resistant" products but I haven't been able to replicate the performance of the Gore-Tex.
Interesting and of course it's great that you're having success with it. What kind of life span are you getting and what DWR do you use?
@@BenVallack I think ski outfits get relatively good DWR performance because you just don't wash this stuff that much. I usually refresh my DWR once a season.
I really do agree with everything you are saying about Gore-Tex from a UK perspective. But living in colorado where it almost never rains, but I ski and go out in the snow a lot, Gore-Tex is honestly amazing. I think the problems come about from Gore-Tex trying to escape being a high-end ski clothing product.
Wouldn't the low relative humidity of higher elevation in the higher regions of the US really give the best case scenario for gore-tex?
@@qwie100 absolutely! I would never buy gore-tex outside of winter mountain use, really weirded me out when gore-tex left the mountain part of my athletic wear store.
Here comes the inevitable "but it works for me" comments
I am so glad I found your channel. Thanks for this informative upload. Looking forward to your next.
A good umbrella is what you need 😅
I do like my gortex bivvy bag though!
Umbrellas are defo more breathable and water proof than a jacket 👍🏻👍🏻😂
Some high-quality jackets with Gore-Tex membranes & sprays work well in some situations (e.g. light rain during light activity), at least until the coating wears off IME. When it rains hard with a lot of activity, the jackets approach plastic bag comfort. They seem to work well with wind but I'm sure other materials are better. The environmental & health risks seem horrific so I think this should be banned immediately.
Well explained and fully agree with you that this is just marketing!
During my cycle touring trips (5-6 hours actual cycling in one day, for several months, day after day I do wear an expensive Arc’teryx which has Gore-Tex, but that’s only good short time drizzling. When it’s raining heavily and for longer periods of time, I will not hesitate to stop and put on my poncho. Ponchos are cheap, not very sexy, but they do the job: keep me dry!
(I’m a chemical engineer, and spend al my career in the polymer industry.)
I got a goretex coat cause it looked cool. It's good during the winter snow, but it gets hot and humid in the summer and it's just not cutting it for hot and humid weather.
This is fundamental to all insulation. You need to have insulation on the outside of the barrier, so the barrier is warmer than the surrounding air and close to the internal temperature. There was no way thier claims were ever going to work.
It's been around for 40 years. Anyone who's used them know that it's doesn't breath when it's covered with water. But what does? I prefer zipable vents.
Id really like to see a video talking about ponchos with baffles. By far the best airflow you can get and doesnt compromise on leaking in since you can open the baffles away from the rain every now and then.
Do you have a specific product you can link to?
This is the first video on GoreTex that I fully understood. Thank you!
Waxed leather boots for backpacking. Not sure what to do with coats.
Excellent analysis!! Inspiring! Conclusions are very damning
Yes, modern DWR coatings are not very durable or long lasting, but 10-20 years ago the industry used fluorocarbon chemistries with longer polymer chains that lasted years between reproofing. Many "C8" compounds have been banned since around 2016 and Gore now uses mostly C6 DWR in their textiles, which definitely dont last as long and need regular reproofing. With more perflourocarbon regulations incoming, Gore and other suppliers will be transitioning away from PTFE membranes and PFC DWR coatings and towards polyurethane and polyethylene membranes and "C0" PFC free coatings. The first of these jackets are already on sale, with Patagonia, Marmot, and Arcteryx releasing models in 2023.
You should check out the rain coats from light heart gear and anti gravity gear !
Yeah definitely the direction I'm keen to explore next!
I really like the proprietary Ascent Shell layer from Outdoor Research. It is really breathable and comfortable to wear. I use it primarily for skiing.
Same membrane technology. Just a different manufacturer of the same thing.
Ben, what are your thoughts on Nikwax? Paramo advise you treat the jackets with Nikwax products on a 3 monthly basis. I would be interested in your thoughts.
I can completely get on board with these theories… and have always thought Goretex to be a rip off. However, I owned a NF Summit series Goretex XCR jacket for about ten years. And wore it most days when the weather required me to. Everyday for work, walking at weekends etc. it never once let me down in any conditions- summer showers, winter rain, snow… I always remained dry. I think I only treated it probably twice during that time with TX Nik wash in… I also owned a NF Hyvent before that and that was as good tbh. Wore these jackets till the hyvent was too scruffy and the Summit got stolen… maybe I’ve never been active enough for the interior to suffer? I did do long hikes 10 miles plus in all weathers regularly at that time. Never climbed or ran tho… maybe it’s only when you push yourself physically that these issues become apparent? And in which case you could argue that for “most” cases Goretex will be absolutely fine. Fine of course for use but it’s still galling that they lie on the adverts. I’ve recently bought quite a lot of Rab gear. One being Gore Packlite and the other being Infinium and Pertex. Haven’t had a proper chance to test them yet though. I’ve more faith in Rab as a brand than Gore, maybe wrongly… but I think that if Rab think Gore is good then it must be ok? Would love a Paramo for testing and would like to try Arcteryx and Patagonia gear too. Just haven’t got enough money for it all 😂😂😂
As an aside I did have a NF Paclite jacket around 2005 and once the DWR wore off- in a short space of time… it was rubbish (still looked nice) but I could never get the same performance back even after reroofing with Nik Wax. Also the taped seems on the inside came unstuck.
Aramid fibres (Kevlar, Gore-Tex) are great fibres, but they get their strength is they are knitted, and not weaved. The waterproof part of the fabric is not the Aramid fibres, as they are only the reinforcement.
Gortex to work properly has to be tight fitting and get warmth inside from your body. You will see it working effectively sometimes in sunshine seeing the water vapour which has passed through the membrane from your hot body inside steaming as the vapour condenses outside of the fabric in the cold air. I have found Gortex boot liners useless as the seal around the ankles cannot be maintained to enable the above principle to work properly..
Your alternative material, the paramo jackets, don't have any membrane and solely rely on DWR as I understand it. In this video, you mentioned DWR wears of rather quickly, but doesn't this apply to the Paramo material as well?
Yes indeed - but it's reasonably cheap and very non-toxic. Very unlike the DWR used on Gore-Tex coats. It also works in a very different way.
To expand on Ben's answer with info from his previous video about the Paramo coats, they recommend using NikWax, and I believe they do so from the factory. At least here in the UK, it's available from basically every outdoor shop and is also used for waterproofing certain types of boot and tent.
It seems you're pretty excited about these Paramo jackets , but I can't understand why they're any different from other well-made soft shell jackets.
If you're not already aware, you might be interested in reading about the ECWCS system the US military paid for, which was supposedly inspired in large part by Scottish mountaineers. Which layers you are suggested to use depends on temperature, and whether you are exercising. This system includes one impermeable waterproof layer, and one gore tex layer.
The gore-tex layer is only recommended for stationery use, above freezing. In this instance you won't be generating much sweat, and will be able to expel moisture in dry intervals.
Otherwise, like with Paramo, most moisture control is acheived with a water-repellent nylon soft shell and body heat.
The acutal mil-spec jackets can be pretty expensive, given they aren't available direct to consumers [to do with flame-retardency I believe], but swatting up on the suggested use relates to the drawbacks with hard or soft shells.
What happened to thinsulate? I notice that only a few brands still have it, patagonia, columbia and j.crew
I have had several expensive Gore-Tex products, all which failed ! Fx demalination of a very expensive jacket, sweating in any kind of Gore-Tex product, reverse "vaporing" in boots, so the boots and socks got soaked. I have NOT used any kind of Gore-Tex for many years and never will again !!!
Never heard of that. Interesting. Nice drawings!
Thanks - yeah I find waterproof coat technology really interesting!
Canada single handedly made GoreTex [fashionable]
Have you ever considered Loden as an alternative to all the plastic Textiles?
I have considered wool and do think there is some great potential there - as soon as finances allow I'd love to try something like a WeatherWool coat
Just get a cotton wax jacket, instead of plastics+chemicals. Wax jacket will last you forever, you can re-wax it to keep it waterproof.
Tried that. Like wearing a plastic bag and it tore apart just after one year! (Barbour, you can see it in my camping tour video)
also worth to watch Fortnine's video related to this topic (it's a biker channel)
Marketers for every company on the face of the earth do this. Regardless, the quality of Gore-Tex is S+ tier compared to 99% of their competition on the market. I've used GoreTex products my entire life, and they always kept me dry - One coat is running on 10 years.
We found goretex absolutely useless for sailing & coastal work despite once being marketed for it. I never thought the "goretex tax" was remotely worth the extra cost for general foul weather gear, particularly after their patent ran out some years ago & they were no longer the only manufacturers of this type of cloth. I found too many people fell for the "if it's expensive it must be good" angle early & still cling on to the brand as a sort of magical talisman/placebo because of the "sunk cost" fallacy.
whoa whoa. are we missing the bigger pic here? @Ben Vallack you use mac??
Absolutely!
I’m here for the partial of rho with respect to x. Not Gore-Tex
Ha!
what about hard/softshell jackets? when I was shopping for a raincoat recently i came to the conclusion that there were two technologies. First 2 / 2,5 or 3 Layer shell jackets or Gore-Tex. Gore-Tex seemed a little more buzzwordy so I went with a 3 Layered shell jacket. What is the difference between shell jackets and these furr imitating jackets?
I agree Ben Gore-tex is a huge con, I have owned several expensive branded Gore-tex jackets and do on occasions get the perspiration on the inside. As you rightly highlight the giveaway sign is the pit zips provided, after all if it was waterproof and breathable then there would not be a need for the zips. Also the DWR does have often a rather limited product.
Ben, how're you getting on with your ShakeDry jacket? As fragile as they are I've had great results with mine. Im doing my best to keep my x3 ShakeDry pieces in good condition to last a little longer!
Yeah I do still keep it handy and use it - it's actually holding up ok although it tends to end up being used as a wind proof as much as anything!
1:51 the music lol
Bit of drama! heh
What do you think of Futurlight by north face? Or other electrospun highly breathable membranes?
They're all just variants on the same format as far as I can see. They may do what Gore-Tex set out to do better, but still can't beat the physics. Moving liquid water directionally has my vote for most situations (Paramo) but I can see the utility in a good membrane for some situations (assuming they can stop polluting people's water supplies).
@@BenVallack Paramo seems great, but the thickness means it can't be used in hotter weather
What about Pertex and the likes of Buffalo shirts/jackets?
I wore Gortex jacket and pants during my 4 years as a aircraft mechanic in the USAF in the "northwest" of the USA. It was a god send. Kept me dry.
What if I just grab a hoodie and spray it with something like dwr
It will be shower proof to some extent!
Realy would be happy to move away from membranes, but dwr and waxing fails quickly, and ponchos are fragile and messy. But I keep looking out. There's Ventile, but it's expensive.
Have you seen the video I linked at the end? Seems like a good approach to me.
@@BenVallack Yep I've seen it when it came out. Paramo is expensive and it's not sold where I'm buying. But I've been using Nikwax for 20 years or so. It's great on leather but not so much on cloth. Still, one day I'm hoping to try Paramo or something similar. Scandinavian brands are also moving away from membranes these days, but they cost a lot, too.
@@BenVallack By the way, several layers of an outer cloth work decent in rain - up to 2-3 hours if the coat of your DWR is fresh.
It's indeed bulky and it gets damp, but doesn't really bleed water through. Works best when paired with polar fleece or wool underneath, so there's breathing room and no direct contact with damp cloth.
Oh come on, that one is growing a beard now, that's how old that is...
A membrane like that can only work through a difference in steam presuure like intended. And yes, if you put enough force on it you'll also press water through ot, like when wearing a heavy back pack. The stuff was developed for alpine environments where it tends to work as intended.
If you put on whats basically a plastic sheet with tiny holes as soon as you step outside, start to hike and expect not to sweat and never get the idea you might be better off without that thing as long as its not raining, then you're not very clever.
And if it's actually raining, that plastic aheet with tiny holes does perform better than just a plastic sheet as long as the water still gets repelled from it. If the outer layer is soaked you won't have hardly any steam escaping through that either.
Use it for what it's developed, not for what it's advertised and you are good.
'like intended' - I equate marketing with intention. Their marketing suggests they can be breathable and waterproof at the same time. Until they start admitting that this is a drum worth banging.
Vids about keyboards are better than this
In what way? There's only so much I can say about keyboards (not that I'm at that point, there are still keyboard videos coming).
Lotta words there to state that a fantastic seal system component works almost all of the time. Lotta words, pal.
There's a lot to discuss!
When I want to wear a rain coat, the wind is driving the rain hard. Otherwise I use a Z-Packs umbrella. Pit zips are essential on a rain coat though.
This summarizes my years of experience with goretex coats as a skier. Particularly as a back country skier where I was doing very high intensity work climbing uphill.... and know gore tex ever worked, I'd just always get wet. I switched to kiteboarding and I dont use goretex that much anymore, but I always wondered why it never lived up to the hype.
Great video, Ben. So, what brand would you recommend for a great rainjacket (and pants)? Any that are reasonably priced as well? Thanks in advance.
Sorry, wrote that around 30 seconds before the ending… 😅
Heh
100% agreed.
DWR's can be "rejuvenated" by putting them in the dryer.
Have you tried a 100% merino wool rain jacket? I live in the Pacific Northwest and have been wearing one for short hikes in the rain and doing errands. While it works, it's not a jacket you want if your going hiking for multiple hours in a day as I have had the rain seep through at the shoulders.
But it's awesome for the average person since it uses 0 synthetic materials and is good enough for errand runs.
Yeah I love merino - funds have not allowed for anything along those lines yet but I'd love something a WeatherWool coat!