Gore-Tex is a Marketing Gimmick
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- Опубликовано: 31 окт 2023
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RyanF9 uses science to explain how Gore-Tex works and why you’re being ripped off. Send your hate mail to papershredder@fortnine.ca
Dainese Carve Master 3 Gore-Tex Jacket: frt9.co/2rwe2d
Dainese Tempest 3 D-Dry Jacket: frt9.co/sgzguu
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Thanks Ryan for pointing out once again that I'm a complete sucker for marketing...
We all are that’s the scary thing about marketing. Advertisers hijack our own brain without us even being aware of it.
Hahaha you bought gore tex didn't you
Hey me, too. I blocked out most of other equivalent or even better at breathability just so my daughters would stay dry. Oh how I was wrong back then when believing in Gore's words of his product.
No shame! I own several Gore-Tex products and they're great. Just not "special" or necessarily better than the many other w/b membranes out there. ~RF9
@@FortNine, it's strange to me that it is not obvious to everyone. Nobody seems to belive that, for instance, Tide detergent is the absolute best detergent and nothing compares to it, despite what their ads might say. Why would people think that about Gore-Tex?
Ryan could easily be:
-a scientist
-a standup comedian
-a marketing expert
-a motovlogger
Thanks for choosing the motovlogger option, since we now get content like this for free. Great video
So he's the Johnny Sins of Motorcycling. Good to know!
He is literally a studied physicist.
He can literally do any of those for free and I'd still watch that stuff. I'm just glad he chose motorcycles!
-gigolo
-pizza delivery guy
-astronaut
He does have a physics degree
This pretty much sums up my experience with issued gore-tex in the military, I didn’t even know it was supposed to be breathable, just waterproof, and it always failed at that too.
The air force must've gotten better gear cause I got the camo goretex as hand me downs as a brat 25 years ago and they're still waterproof for skiing(and breathable cause there's 0 humidity on a frozen mountain)
my issue gore-tex is still pretty good. it stopped beading up after the first few years - issued 24 years ago - and it would get soaked or 'wet out' as they say, but rain still wouldn't get through the thing, regardless. recently, i found something called 'granger's wash and repel.' it has restored my jacket somewhat. it beads on areas with seams really well. it gets less wet out in general.
I got Dainese gore-tex gloves and those suckers kept my hands dry in a downpour that was downright suicidal to ride into (and I shouldn't have) - I was mostly completely soaked (had a rain vest on top of my jacket which kept my upper body ok) but my hands were fine!
Breathable ? No. You chose... wet from the rain or wet from sweat?
@@montgomeryfitzpatrick473 I’m Air Force, so maybe you guys just got better gear back then, I got in 2014
I thought it was already common knowledge that GoreTex is pretty much the same thing as a lot of the others. However, the problem with the others is that, unless you're really into this stuff, it is extremely difficult to know which ones are good and which are garbage. All things considered, GoreTex is at least consistent in its quality and still among the best in the market (your graph at 8:50 even shows it to be the most waterproof of the bunch).
its not though. goretex makes any company using its name to stick to extreme quality standards.
goretex is better lol.
Still I wouldn't invest in their stock, PTFE is on the short list of things that we are going to get rid of.
@@kampar82 its overvalued right now but they could just come up with something out of nowhere. prob not though
Thanks for this comment... BC I'm wondering - what is the alternative? I don't mind shelling out for GoreTex if it's best to get me started for now... Developing the "discernment for what is good", like what I need is security to get me started.
@@hurpaderpp I had several gore-tex things that just didn't work from the day one. Like shoes that got wet after I walked 2 meters in a wet grass, within 10 minutes of putting them on. RMA refunded. So no, not all goretex is the same
Please don't buy our sponsor's product if you have no need or the finances to do so. I love brutal honesty. Excellent vid as always!
Yea, I just saw the 660 eur price tag and suddenly I realized I don't need it right now... :) Lol
Funniest bit is have been looking at then and him being sponsored and getting something from it and a free gift to me definitely makes it a easier purchase
It is clever marketing. I do not need such a product as I don't have a bike, but now I want one anyway. Because Ryan. I'm guessing it's a Ryan thing. Between Ryan F9, Ryan Reynolds and Ryan Gosling, we are blessed here in Canada with incredible content from our homegrown Ryans.
@@jeffer1101 Sometimes it's marketing coupled with the fascination with something new that seems to offer exciting possibilities.
@@kurrie3280 meh, I'm going with the Ryan effect. We have great Ryans.
As a textile technologist I proved this back in the early 90’s. Some of the top brands utilise an enhanced membrane system, that not only out performs G’tex, it’s a fraction the cost. The only G’tex products I’ve purchased are ones I’ve deliberately destroyed in the name of science. Great video.
I ride snowboard (freeride included) - problem is, that in this industry if you need some light performence stuff, it cost you quite a lot. And the level is similar between diferent membranes brands :/ I have jackets from different materials, but one is Gore because of the all the materials used in lamination (rough on exposed areas like backpack straps, elbows etc..., lighter on some panels...). My normal freeride/slope jacket is nice performing, but heavier and just one type of fabric weight. For my enduro bike I go with low price sinde there is really high chance I destroy it and also I don´t ride as long in wet conditions.
Any suggestions? Asking for a friend.
I always could find very lightweight high quality no-name brands that were all great. Never felt the need. @@lukasvrana6388
@@neil8lin Also have a friend who'd like to know
Thanks for sharing this! It's a g'spot-on!
I worked in a kids shoes store for many years. I must have repeated thousands of times to parents that most all tex membranes are perfectly good, even if they don't carry the name Goretex.
It really is a product where people are extremely brand loyal.
Back when RUclipsrs started to advertise Vessey shoes I eventually bought a pair since I lived in NYC at the time, and walking around during April when it rained like crazy, and stepping into that puddle you thought was an inch deep but was actually 3 inches deep SUCKED. When I got them I was suspicious that they were really waterproof and probably more heavily water resistant. I decided to test this by putting my hand in one and running it under the sink at full blast for like 30 seconds. My hand and the interior of the shoe was completely dry. I was pretty amazed since the shoes were average price ($70-$80 IIRC). I can't say much for the quality of the soles/cushioning, but then again New Yorkers beat the hell out of their shoes walking a few miles a day on concrete.
Only a Shoe Salesperson could call a synthetic fiber "Perfectly Good."
Have Sheep poisoned the water table, or bees?
Only the sheep that share DNA with You.
I am a surgeon who trains with vascular surgeons regularly. We use medical grade Gore ePFU as patches and shunts for large arteries all the time. The stuff is absolutely amazing. Permanent, impermissible to fluid, not to mention just as strong as your own arteries to hydrostatic shear and tearing forces.
Not gonna lie, as much as I hate that Gore has such control over consumers, I also recognize that the uses of such discovered technologies has expanded to benefit humans in so many ways. The reduction of strokes, decreased overall morbidly and mortality associated with individuals with peripheral vascular disease. Without the drive for innovation, people would live very different lives today.
All that to say, sure, we can criticize Gore for being having a continued influence on the outdoor jackets market, but we should also recognize their achievement in developing a product that also provides such amazing benefits to humans than otherwise would probably have no chance even 20 years ago.
I think you're missing the point, anyone could make that exact same product since 1998 but it isn't profitable because of Gore's predatory behaviour. I'm sure your hospital pays more for those products than they would if it was just called ePTFE patches.
@@TheStuntViking this is just capitalism though? Don't blame Gore blame the system.
@@TheStuntViking or they could've had nothing if cash wasn't an incentive for scientists to go out and innovate
@@JarlMiller the system thats created the lowest poverty in human history. DAMN CAPITALISM
@@hurpaderpp Only that cash
As an outerwear designer that has worked with thousands of laminated fabrics: "Goretex" is a brand, not a fabric. Sure they are patented (used to be) , but there are literally thousands of abbreviations of the more or less exact same thing.
And Goretex itself has thousands of fabrics, so testing a "patch of goretex fabric" to test the function of goretex doesn't really make sense, again, it's a brand not a fabric.
The functionality of the laminate is to a big extent based on the waterproof coating that is applied to the face side of the fabric, not only the membrane on the backside as most people believe.
But yes, this video in other ways makes sense, and laminated membrane 3L fabrics have the problem that you are likely to build up water vapour inside, in movement and higher heat environments.
Getting wet from the inside.
The key is that you learn after designing outerwear for years, is that it's not about the fabric, it's about the full product, it needs other ways of ventilation.
And here's your key take away: Why goretex is deemed as a stamp of Functionality, is that they do not allow anyone to use their brand logo or label, without the product going through their testing, and this is seam tape quality, contruction of the product etc,
For example you can't make a rain jacket without a hood with a goretex logo, they won't allow it, that's not waterproof construction.
Actually super annoying to work with those guys haha!
Anyhow, yeah no ones gonna read this but it needed to be said lol, so many misconceptions about all this
14 likes in 10 minutes. We're reading what you wrote. If you've got more to say, we're listening.
Now 32 likes in 12 minutes
FYI, plenty of golf brands make hoodless gore-tex waterproof jackets(e.g. Galvin Greene) but i think your point still stands.
@@kevinmccarron833 Yes and they use ome of goretex's fabrics that allow for that, it's actually a completely different product concept, usually they use "Goretex infinium" which does not have the same requirements to classification as their standard product, it's often more breathable too, but they have a seperate process of testing and allow for non waterproof construction
@@FrorideismI read it and I appreciate it. I'll take one of these kinds of comments over a thousand dumb jokes any day. Please keep being you.
I worked for a textile mill and we had a treatment for our outdoor wool which was waterproof but was so light it felt like the regular wool. Trouble is because it felt like nothing the retail customers didnt trust it and didnt buy the garments made by our fabric. Manufacturers went back to buying our older, "waxier" versions.
Kind of the same with everyone wanting heavier metal smartphones because they FEEL higher quality in the hand, despite the fact there's cheaper, lighter, recyclable and insanely durable polymers out there that will outlive your software support by decades anyway.
Hi, its really interesting! Could you give me any information how that kind of wool is called? Or how and where i can find this type of wool?
@@readyforlol Nokia used to do a good mix of metal and polymer, but alas the 'premium' craze took over and hasn't left.
As someone who has some experience wearing historical clothing, we have kind of collectively forgotten how good natural fibers are. An outer layer of the right wool fabric will keep you warm and dry without any fancy treament thanks to the natural oils in it, as long as you don't wash them out with detergents. Inner layers of linen are great at managing sweat, dry quickly and will never get as smelly as synthetics.
@@mirsh2541I started out as the lowest budget camper with the crappies material, literally garbage bags and tarps. As I got older, I bought "better" stuff but eventually realized it wasn't doing that much and later "downgraded" again. It's not worth all the thought and money.
Gore-Tex got it huge in the 1990s when it received US military contracts. I was in service with the US Marines starting in 1993. Originally our rain gear was old school stuff: Ponchos and rubber "gumby suit" top and bottom. Those first USMC Gore-Tex items were crap because water went through the seams, i.e. the armpit, etc. Your uniform would be soaking wet in those areas despite the Gore-Tex gear. Later gens of the Gore-Tex gear in the 2000s were better. Regardless you'll still be sweating like crazy in a rainy environment. It's actually better simply as layered clothing when it's a bit cold.
I retired from the service in the 2010s but I wonder if the US military can get a better contract now with competition, because the military likes things cheaper with personnel equipment.
Edit: There is a problem with Gore-Tex items in the military I forgot to mention earlier. It's if you're in a maintenance environment. For example my career was working on airplanes. Getting oil, hydraulic fluid, stuff like that just ruins Gore-Tex. You can wash it all the time to get the fluid / oil off but it's never quite gone and it ruins the water repelling ability over time.
But anyways, it's just a brand name now. People will pay higher money for a brand they recognize despite a competing item doing the same thing on the cheap. I still recall in junior and high school kids being made fun of for having some non-name brand clothing.
you covered everything I was going to so I don't have to
>11
I worked in outdoor retail when GoreTex came out in 1979. The first stuff we got did not have sealed seams in any way - we knew to seam seal our own kit and advise customers, but I wonder whether people that got stuff on contract literally missed the memo. What even we didn't know was not to wash it in ordinary washing powder
Military pays Corporation for Waterproof Materials and Processes...
then goes to War in a Desert.
Bahhhaahahahhahahahaahhahahahaa
@@catshoemike...So, it was a partially finished product that you couldn't treat like Any of your other garments, huh.
And they charged how much More?
Great video! Regardless of the membrane the most overlooked part of owning any waterproof clothing is caring for and maintaining the outer DWR fabric.
How do I care for it?
@@rf-bd6jy think about it often, try to talk with it about your problems, do something nice on occasion, you know, be human
@@arekszczurek 😅😅
@@arekszczurek You forgot to feed it snacks
Fortnine is literally the only channel I don't skip the sponcon segments for. Ryan can even make shilling entertaining.
ngl I want that camera now.
FR tho I always skip through these shits but if he does it it's witty and entertaining. Plus I want to support them the most
we actually sell that camera at my job so it was really useful for me to learn a bit about it lol
Ain't gonne lie, I bought one for racing motorcycles. Best purchase ever. The footage is so awesome!@@keaixiaomeinv
yeah ryan keeps it relevant to his actual video topic so it's well blended in @@rzrpwr
The Jokes, The Delivery, The Cinematography... this channel is such a blessing
It really is. Top quality content 😊
The jokes are so low key delivered is an ART!
It can be. They put out a video about bike mounts that was kind of obtuse in it's delivery of information. Way too many tongue in cheek jokes. Not enough straight shooting. I still don't know what the best one was, and under which circumstances.
I bought into the whole marketing gimmick 15 years ago when buying "waterproof, breathable" jackets. Everytime I went hiking or use the jacket, I soaked myself from the inside out. And the worst part is the outdoor gear industry keeps repeating the same non-sense to this day.
Now I just use softshell jackets or realize I'm going to get wet and plan accordingly.
Go wear softshell in himalayan blizzard. Good luck.
@@icom782 a Himalayan blizzard is definitely relevant to 99.9% of people...
@@TROPtastic All I mean is that gore-tex is made for specific tasks and there are times when you need membrane and no other membrane can beat gore-tex at this moment.
Of course it's not perfect but if you do alpinism or just hiking you agree to the fact that you will get wet and sweat sometimes.
To compensate for that you have other layers of clothing that can make the whole experience better.
Agreed. I first tried GT about 20/30 years ago. Absolute waste of time and money.
personally, i always just have a softshell on me and a waterproof membrane accessible in the bag. best option are membrane jackets with gigantic aeration zippers. got a jacket with zippers that go elbow to ribs passing on top of the armpit, that's some real breathability right there.
I'm not a bike fan, don't even have a bike license, and yet I keep on watching your vids. That's how good your content is. Keep up the good work!!
sad
Now THAT is how you throw some serious shade. I love the pro-consumer content that blows massive holes through marketing bullshit.
I just hope people don't misunderstand the message of this video, as so many seem to already do: the point was not that Gore-Tex is bad or doesn't work (there's essentially nothing better, only some similar products which are about equal), the criticism was towards their business practices.
I think the message could've been more clear in the end: If you can choose something else than Gore-Tex which is a similar tech, it will possibly perform just as well without that known brand name.
@@pistonburner6448 There's PLENTY as good if not better. There is nothing special about goretex - event etc. all do the same job (as does a plastic bag). And if you want breathability, nothing beats Neoshell.
@@flippy66 I did say that others can be as good. But calling GoreTex bad? Not true IMO.
No, a plastic bag is nowhere near as good as GoreTex. First of all it doesn't breathe at all when it's not raining, as opposed to GoreTex which does.
Second of all even when raining GoreTex does still breathe pretty well IMO, at least when the garment is in good shape. It does so for a long time, and even if it does reduce its breathing a lot after many hours that's irrelevant to most users. And: there still isn't anything (noticeably) better!
@@pistonburner6448 I agree with you that the breathability/performance of a GoreTex product is as dependent upon the overall design and construction of the product itself and could be as good or better than using a different membrane. I have had great products using GoreTex as well as a competing/alternate membrane. Some people aren't price sensitive either. I am but others are not.
incorrect, entirely @@flippy66
As someone with a tight budget for riding gear/accessories, I’m very glad for your videos like this. Clearing the air of all the marketing BS! Thanks again for all the great content
sometimes it pays to be cheap. better product better business lower prices.
BUY USED!! Buying about half of gear used safed me so much money and i never had any regrets.
You won't have that beading off problem when you're riding. The wind will blow the water away. The problem with these types of breathable membranes is, they're not very durable. I had a pair of Gore-Tex boots and they were amazing for about a year and then they started leaking.
@@funofboredomI’m on my second Rukka suit and the first one lasted 8 years and I sold it, they are extremely durable.
@@ragetobe Did you use it daily? I was using my boots daily.
With Gore-Tex I know what I get. The performance is predictable and that's important for me. But it's great to know good (and even better) alternatives exists!
The price comparison is very unfair.
It compares a laminated jacket with Gore-tex, with a nog non laminated jacked non Gore-tex, laminated jacket's are double in price because it's way more work and needs to be made wit a lot of handwork, so that explans the price difference, hense it's not the membrane!
I work in the industry and can tell you that gortex branded products are not any better then Columbia or Costco rain jacket. Costco quality standards for clothing is better than the brands themselves.
I bought my Fila Gore-Tex ski pants in Italy in the '90s. Dry - Dry -Warm - the best ski apparel I have ever owned.
My experience on many a wet Scottish hillside is that you’re in for a soaking no matter what gear you wear. Although I had Gore-Tex I much preferred my Paramo gear because it was more comfortable, if a little heavier in the wet and a bit too warm for some situations.
Very good, well made, informative and entertaining vid. Now a subscriber.
Not true. PVC lined clothing is actually waterproof, and way cheaper than goretex.
"Air molecules do not simply drift back and forth across borders as if they didn't exist. They are not Europeans" - OMFG this had me rolling 🤣😂🤣
Me too. That was superbly funny. Aside from that, Goretex, or any other breathable membrane, outperforms a layered system approach. Breathable removeable inner, outer laminated or outer non-laminated and a waterproof overjacket such as a Scott. That'll give you 365 day coverage for any weather condition. Goretex is only part of a system and many other membranes are as good as, if not better, and all are cheaper. Goretex is nothing special for outdoor wear when it comes to breathable membranes. Bit of a rip off and just marketing hype and mugs sucked into it being better than everything else out there. It isn't.
This summer I rode in the rain (heavy and light) for 3-4 hours straight near Yellowstone and ran into another rider who had about the same time out. He told me that his $1000 Goretex jacket / pants sucked and he’s soaked through. Meanwhile I had a $60 rain coat/pants which also sucked, but leaked mostly from the neck. Let’s just say I am happy to have saved that $940.
We both had a good laugh about it before setting off to our own ways.
I live in the uk, I have ridden in huge downpours, lasting all day. Stayed dry, in got-tex.
Speaking from experience... he was probably soaked from sweating his balls off under all that gore.
I'd reckon buddy probably was perfectly dry, at least that's always been my experience in any quality gore-tex product. More than likely though, that was all ball sweat from not wearing a moisture wicking layer with it lmao.
@@benkelly2190 peddling very slow and generating very little sweat and heat i suppose?
@@sakaraistlayers systems 🎉
Originally watched your content as a new motorbike rider. Now came across this as investigating upgrading hiking gear and waterproof jackets.
Such excellent content with good humour, pacing, editing, and clear explanation of 'sciency' topics which doesn't patronise but doesn't avoid explaining
I've found that it is really dependent on the environment you are in - works well in the wet and cold months but isn't so good in warmer weather. Also, to this day the best waterproof/breathable boots I have ever bought had some off-brand membrane in them with no label (and so were about 1/4 the price of the branded ones). I didn't even know the boots were waterproof until they kept my feet dry for three wet and muddy days and I did some research when I got back home.
What model/brand are those waterproof boots? I've been desperate to find reliable ones in wet weather😢
Can you tell me the name of that membrane? Or the brand?
@@Mr3alaZag get leather and wax them
Like @Merzto I've given up on the GoreTex and gone to leather. Gore lined boots are great, but after x amount of years, the layer breaks down. I've gone to Scarpa SL-Active which are brilliant for my feet, most comfortable walking footwear I have. Of course they won't fit everyone
Entertainment, truth, and integrity all in one. Keep up the good work!
"Thanks to our sponsor..." "... don't buy it if you don't have need it or have the money"
- Formerly no one ever, now Fort Nine
The only thing I wish was changed is that the sponsor wasn't Chinese.
(RUclips will probably now shadowban me as usual, as they seem to be paid by China to search for and flag any negative comments about China and then shadowban us... RUclips chooses Chinese money over integrity and honest spread of information)
It's even better considering how FortNine is a Motorcycle Apparel and Parts online store, they sell all of the garments and parts you see in the videos, it speaks volumes when they tell you to buy something cheaper that works just as well rather than the more expensive item that will make them more money
Trust is the best salesman
CGP Grey has done a similar thing with his Patreon, something to the effect of no struging college students.
At 0:31 Gortex condoms. That explains the five kids.
As a snowboard instructor this is hilarious. We used eVent material jackets as CASI evaluators and I’ve never been so comfortable working in the snow, the breathability is astounding, you really feel it compared to gore.
never head of eVent before, but it looks to be a very similar material to goretex's various textiles
Yea, I spent time as an instructor and also worked at REI for a bit. It's been years, but when they used the eVent fabric in their in-house branded gear, I steered plenty people away from G'tex. Cheaper price, better performance, and (at the time) better quality...it was a no-brainer.
That name sounds familiar. I think either the Klim or the Icon boots use it.
@@mayorofnow mosko moto use eVent on their gear
the sea to summit waterproof compression sacks are made from eVent and are excellent. Squeezing the air out for compression shows breathable and floating sleeping bags down a river shows its pretty good with water too.
There is a lot to be said for quality control. "Gore Tex" requiring high quality seams including seam tape is a big part of why a "gore tex" jacket is reliably better than an off brand material. not always better, but when i'm buying something expensive and can only afford to do it once and not worry about what the quality will be, i want some security in the purchase.
Have a berghaus goretex jacket from about 10 years ago. Usual abuse for an outdoor cold weather coat. Material still looks good, still wind and waterproof. 🤷♂️
@@Andy-hp4tf you are incorrect. the whole video was about the requirements the gore-tex brand puts on the companies that use it, and why those requirements raise the cost. some, not all, but some of those requirements also ensure a degree of quality. That's why while i know a lot of other materials may perform like gore-tex, i know i'm getting a minimum level of quality guarantee with the label.
I have Berghaus goretex jacket I payed £2.50 for in a charity shop.
I estimate it to be 30yrs old.
Its amazing , I don't get wet in it, it's been abused ate festivals camping etc.
I purchased a new e-vent jacket and it's shit, lt wets out or collects condensation, I gave it away and went back to my gortex jacke that's almost as old as me.
This video was funded by a rival brand
@@BrOckSams0n No buddy, you are incorrect.
@@jacksoukup5442 nope
Just discovered your channel and the production quality and (especially) the writing are excellent!
I thank you for further vindicating my habit of being a cheap bastard
We won't judge your heritage here. 😂
Same! 👍👍
Fantastic stuff as always, guys. Other motorbike journalism doesnt even come close.
This was commented a minute after the episode released
@@gravoxxavox7849i was thinking the same thing.
@@gravoxxavox7849 because I wanted to show my appreciation for the channel, yknow
@@gravoxxavox7849 And is 100% correct.
@@gravoxxavox7849 maybe he watched on x10 or x100 speed because he is so clever
Ryan,
I love your videos and look forward to each new posting.
My neighbor is an engineer at Gore Industries here in Flagstaff, AZ. She found your comments interesting but had this to add: “What he did not say is the we stretch the PTFE creating ePTFE in a proprietary process.
PTFE alone ya ePTFE is what makes it unique.”
I guess it’s all about how you massage the PTFE, whatever they are!
Im in uk and Gore tex does work in our cold and damp winters but not so good in humidity, the best waterproof garments ive ever worn are nikwax' own brand, Paramo, works like a mammals fur and pumps water away from your skin, incredible stuff and also very, very well made. Paramo can be repaired without impairing the waterproof qualities and is also warm enough for severe cold conditions. Incredible stuff.
Been away from this side of RUclips for a while but I'm glad to see that Ryan and crew are still what every journalist should aspire to be: Inquisitive, honest, and unafraid. The sky is the limit for these guys.
Great! I will as an educated buyer strive to buy products that are Better at what they are supposed to do for less money, hopefully.@@Charlie_Nice
Well they can't work for television or mainstream print media ever. If you have either honesty or integrity, you need not apply.
My 15 year old Gore-tex mountaineering jacket performs just as well as the day I bought it. The premium cost isn't just for the ePTFE membrane, the quality is a step above everything else on the market. DWR is applied to pretty much any high end garment so his claims are in fact bullshit and it will continue to breath in wet conditions.
@@mar504 Put it in the dryer, or next to a fireplace.
@@fuzzywzhewhy would someone do such a stupid thing?
After years of watching, still can't understand how you guys keep stepping up the game of quality!!
This is the reason I switched back to traditional canvas. Or sometimes G1000 from Fjallraven. By one and only outdoor jacket now, is a Sarma anorak from Varusteleka which uses the same Polycotton blend as Fjallraven's G1000 so it can be waxed and while it may not be as "waterproof" as Goretex, it's also much more breathable, and dries significanty faster than Goretex and doesn't require any of the maintenence that Goretex does.
If I absolutley need a shell that provides 100% rain protection, I'll use a poncho. Nothing is going to come close to the breathability as a rain poncho.
Amazing video! Well-structured, well-presented, informative and engaging! Thank you!
The "breathable OR waterproof" aspect actually makes a lot of sense for why it's used in all sorts of winter gear (especially for alpine sports.) When it's really cold, the humidity tends to plummet, but all that solid water on the ground can collect on your outerwear and get warmed up to liquid, which is super inconvenient if you're garment ISN'T waterproof. However, much of the time you'll have all the snow brushed off, and especially if you're actually skiing or snowboarding, you might actually work up quite a sweat, in which case the breathable aspect should help, as the outside humidity is low.
So like, good for alpine gear, not so much for jungle trekking.
Yeah, but when it's that cold your outer layer is often below freezing anyway, unless you are in a warm winter environment right around freezing...in which case there's no real way to stay dry anyway, it'll be humid.
@@JamesNoBrakes Your outer layer is below freezing but that doesn't mean the specific thermal mass of any collected snow will itself stay below the freezing energy. Collected snow typically gets warmed up by friction and even simple insulation inefficiency; your body heat will warm the surface of whatever you're wearing. You can be in absolutely frigid conditions, but still be "wet" simply because of the snow on you that has melted. Gore-Tex seemingly has the capacity to help with that.
"...you might actually work up quite a sweat, in which case the breathable aspect should help..." Should? Maybe. Does? No, as evidenced by the preponderance of ventilation schemes found on outer shells. One of the problems is that when water vapor gets cool, it consenses, thus trapping sweat as liquid on the inside of the goretex. As for Goretex keeping the water out, that's also a myth. Keeping a fresh coat of extermal water repellant is a must, whether or not there is a Goretex layer.
In my early years of backcountry skiing, I realized that Gortex was a waste of money. And ever since, I've used less expensive outerwear with similar functionality and comfort/discomfort as the Goretrx stuff.
Not here, in the low 20s and below, snow says snow, even on your outer layer. This is Alaska, but I’m not talking about -20F either. When the gore tex “works” its usually In light precip either way that wont overwhelm the insulation and material, around freezing its ok, as long as its not very heavy. This from just a few days ago, heavy snow near freezing, due to early-season here.
@@JamesNoBrakes I mean, I live in Vermont, (and we've already had several snowfalls this month, though it's usually still hovering right around 32°F so the sunlight alone will melt whatever is on the ground after a day or two without more snowfall... super weird that we've had snow but we still have bright green grass for some fucking reason. From what I remember, pretty much everything other than the evergreens would be dead by now, but we literally had 60°+ weather the last week of October and then it snowed November 1st. Fucking climate change man.)
It's not as often as cold here as I remember it usually being 15 or 20 years ago, but I've had more than my share of -20° days, many of them while snowboarding, (all the more so, because it's colder on the mountain, and there are fewer people on the mountain when it's that cold, so that's when I like to go.) And I remember not staying perfectly dry during even the coldest days.
But the colder it is, the more likely you'll have "light precip" conditions. I agree that Gore-Tex doesn't really offer any advantages over simple waterproof equipment when you have warmer and heavy snowfall. (The colder it is the less likely you'll have *any* precipitation to begin with, so I'm mostly talking about accumulation from falling in it, rather than it falling on you.)
I'm so glad someone has finally revealed the truth about goretex. As a cyclist I can verify that when you are exerting yourself on a push bike in the rain you will end up soaking wet.......inside your jacket! This even happens when it is dry outside. The moisture building up inside the jacket will clog the goretex and once again you get wet....inside. Love your videos and humour.
Better off with Nikwaxed polyester when exerting, less so when motorcycling below 25c.
If you wear any waterproof thing you will end up wet inside your jacket due to the extreme humidity. Goretex breaths way better before that happens though.
@@JagknorrBut goretex will only breathe if the outside environment is more dry than your jacket. So if it's raining outside you lose pretty much all of your breathability
@@Jagknorrit might be "better" than a plastic bag but it still doesn't keep the condensation out which is the whole point of goretex
Yyyep, you do get moist when exercising in the summer. You are dry when it rains tho.
I bought one gore-tex coat a few yrs back. It wasnt long before i went back to my oil-slick coats. Wgich are not perfect, but considerably cheaper and in my opinion a heck of a lot more durable.
Thank you for explaining this great video!!!
Cheers and beers 🍻
i learned a lot from this video. i grew up in the PNW hiking the cascades. eventually joined the Mountaineers. logged thousands and thousands of hours in the back country, bushwacking. i always viewed companies like a company like Arc'tyrex to be precisely what this video is pointing out, a company that has been smelling it's own farts for far too long and got hyped up by like minded fart smellers, and Gore-Tex as like "the end all to waterproofing". you def got a sub here. there's a really weird price curve in the outdoor gear market for things like this and i always wondered why.
The real genius of goretex was quality control, ive tried various other materials and they usually find a leak somewhere. The extra quality control the companies use when putting goretex into clothing means it just works really well. I have one jacket that outperforms any goretex thing ive owned and it was goretex pricing to get it :(
Agreed. It's the consistent quality control that matters. Particularly seams and zippers. I'm as cheap as the next guy and have tried many of the other "waterproof" membranes from lower priced moto-gear. I always get wet a lot sooner than with my Gore-tex stuff. For me, in the real world, Gore Tex keeps me dryer longer, and in a driving rainstorm, that's all I really care about.
I believe they also offer a warranty if a Goretex product leaks. Which is not nothing.
This is a big part, I think. I have a pretty nice leather jacket not because the kangaroos skincare routine was on point but because as long as I maintain it a little it'll keep me comfortable and intact. Not much I can do about production mistakes like the ones I just accept in my mesh gloves.
Funnily enough with tents I went all the way to the other end of the spectrum: buy a budget model with no glaring defects, then coat the zippers and tape the seams to make it good. The only person I know with a fully waterproof tent out of the bag (and by fully I mean weather alert level rain, not submersion) got a Hilleberg that cost more than my also very waterproof car. Everyone else either tapes their shit or ends up finding a leaky seam eventually, usually at night.
I agree. Makes a huge difference. Quality control. For me goretex stands for very high quality. Not for "breathing" in 99% humid conditions.
@@m.f.m.67 Also, F9s graph of goretex v competitors was somewhat misleading since the bars represented their total score. Splitting up breathability and waterproofing, you see that while it isnt the most breathable, it is by far the most waterproof.
Back in the early nineties (I think) I bought one of those thousand dollar Gore-tex jackets (incl. pants) made by TNF. It served me well for about twenty, twenty-five years of alpinism and subsequent early middle age commuting. By then, some fraying around the cuffs made me think about buying another jacket (plus the thing was hideously yellow and black and TNF had become a... different brand) so I went to the same shop to buy 'something like that but a bit more refined and less bulky'. The shop assistant asked if I was able to show the old jacket, which I could, and after one quick look she decided there were some signs of delamination and that I was eligible for a complete replacement because of the Gore-tex warranty. So yeah, there's that.
Wowsa, that's amazing. Don't hear that from too many products.
@@hankjones3527 You hear a lot of stories of someone getting replacement via warranty after 20 years and they're often denied?
Maybe you are invested in that community, I don't know. I barely hear anything about warranty, much less a rarer one like after 20 years. I think most just buy something new instead, something that might be better.
Or is it just that lifetime warranty is rare? Isn't it common in certain product categories? As someone that ignores warranty and just hopes stuff works because I'm too lazy to do shipping-related tasks, I'm not sure. Maybe if there was a local place you could hand that sort of thing off to and they do all the work, I'd use that. But it's like going by bus and walking, I'm often too lazy to use the bus and end up walking and I just don't bother. Also helps that it's cheaper. Maybe 40 USD every week counting the weekend to use the bus, I haven't done any proper math and I won't bother because I'm not using the bus system.
I remember getting a lovely gift of a GT waterproof golf suit from my brother years ago. The first time I wore it I thought it was absolutely fabulous with the water beading off it until it came to carrying my bag with the straps over my shoulders and that caused the moisture to saturate my shoulders and back. Other than that, it was dry. I still have it to this day and wear it out walking if it looks like it could rain.
Dope channel. Subbed for following the dopamine. Fantastic writing, videography, interest capture (I am not outdoorsy in a long time), editing, and entertainment.
Investigative journalism at its finest. Thank you Ryan. I was in the market for a waterproof jacket after my old one has lost its mojo. Now I'll just DWR it.
Let me know if you get success. FYI I used Mountval Textile Shield (spray on) on a GoreTex sailing jacket in August. Yesterday, in the first big rainfall, it was proven to be totally useless. I’m now trying Grangers Performance Repel Plus (again spray on). If that doesn’t work - I’m off to buy a new non GoreTex jacket.
Best of luck in your trials 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
The price comparison is very unfair.
It compares a laminated jacket with Gore-tex, with a nog non laminated jacked non Gore-tex, laminated jacket's are double in price because it's way more work and needs to be made wit a lot of handwork, so that explans the price difference, hense it's not the membrane!
Living in PNW, below the tree line, long ago came to a rabid disdain of Goretex. Especially for sailing or any sort of coastal hiking trails. It just ends up being so waterlogged after any amount of use. I stick with durable vinyl jackets with large venting zippers - which are a fraction of the price and last almost indefinitely. 8 inch holes under your armpits will vent pretty darn well! If you need to cool down after exerting yourself you ditch the jacket and hang out under an umbrella for a while.
any suggestions? I need something for .motorcycle riding
@@ratbrain7743 F-9 has done multiple product reviews over the years for riding in the rain.
Goretex is great in snow, first time I ever filled my glove with snow and had warm dry hands in 30 minutes or less was when I wore some Outdoor Research Firebrand Goretex Mittens. Great stuff!
Great testing and explanation! I thought this would be a bunch of bunk, and was pleasantly surprised it was a very scientific explanation. I was taken in by all the marketing and own a number of wonder-fabric raincoats, pants, and boots! 🤣
Thank you so much!
My Gore-Tex jacket was forgotten for a few years in a box.
When I found it, the Gore-Tex was flaking off and the jacket was simply a jacket, not waterproof or even water resistant.
Because the actual gortex membrane is so incredibly thin and easily damaged, it's sewn in as one of the middle layers of the garment. If something was flaking off it was probably whatever hydrophobic type layer is on the outside in an attempt to keep the gortex dry and thus more breathable.
It's just so funny that a "good gortex jacket" tries it's best to keep the supposedly waterproof part away from the water.
@@marsrover001 It was on the inside.
I thought it was weird that they did not cover it with another layer, but it was a lightweight jacket.
That was probably the hydrophobic coating mentioned in the video?
I just use a $50 military surplus M65 and spray spray-on watereproofing spray on it every year. The rain protection part and the insulation part are separate and held together by buttons; if I get sweaty under it I can open the rainshell, unbutton the liner from it, and button the liner closed under it. It did soak through once but only after an hour in pouring rain. It also comes with a drawstring on the bottom so I can cinch it closed against my body so cold wind can't attack my belly from below.
@@TOASTEngineer I miss the spray on waterproofing from Scotchguard.
I was in the US Army when this stuff was on it's takeover in the boots and jackets department. We were forced to wear it, basically for testing, and we all come across one common point.
*Rather be soaked wet, than soaked in sweat*
So you rather be wet by cold rain than by your own bodytemperature sweat?
I remember getting my first issued Gore-Tex "raincoat" and it was terrible. Sure it didnt let water in (but it did) but I was sweating my ass off inside it. When youre in the humid rain standing watch for hours on end water just finds a way to seep in, Im guessing through the stitching.
Imagine staying in a hot bathroom after you've finished your shower. Even a hot and humid SE Pennsylvania July day is preferable to that. The actual issue is that in a rain jacket, soaked in your own sweat, there's no possible escape.@@halamagrep9727
@@halamagrep9727 Right, because sweat is meant to maintain your bodytemperature.
In heavy or prolonged rain you're going to get wet eventually anyway Might as well just accept this truth and choose clothing that keeps you warm & comfortable even when wet, and is quick drying.
Such high quality production, amazing. Thank you!!
I love this guy! I worked for years in a mountain supply store and was one of the first people in my area of Maine to own a Goretex Anorak. The small company that made it (Outdoor Gear) was trying to penetrate the market in our area and they let me have it for the wholesale price of $40. Retail price in 1982 was $48.Adjusted for inflation the price today should be $156.29 instead of $500 to $1,000. Now add to this the fact that my Anorak was handmade by a American workers in tiny company in the USA and the Goretex jacket you buy today is made in Vietnam by people getting paid slave wages. Last but not least as is brilliantly demonstrated in this video Goretex can't repel water and breath as the same time so you either get soaked from perspiration or rain and rain has a much nicer smell!
Winter mountaineer here, bought the lie initially and bought some EXTREMELY overpriced Gore-Tex gear. Used it a lot and discovered it's a scam. It's pretty water resistant considering it's somewhat breathable and pretty breathable considering it's somewhat waterproof but the truth is, it's not very waterproof or breathable. I now use gear that's intended to be completely waterproof and mechanically ventilate (Which means opening zippers and vents and removing layers at the first hint of overheating) Works WAY better than my VERY expensive, top of the line Gore-Tex gear.
Would you mind sharing what gear you're using?
@@villecool1For winter trips, my shell coat is one that I made using Silcoat, a thin, ripstop nylon (if my memory serves correctly) with layer(s) of silicone in/on it.
My bottoms, I realized when you asked the question, ARE Goretex, I'm currently using military surplus shell pants. Not sure what kind of Goretex they are, it just says "Goretex" on the seam tape. I tried them mainly because they were cheap and probably reasonably durable and I've been plenty satisfied with them as snow pants.
The caveat to all of this is in the winter, I try to avoid going on a trip when it's warm. Ideally my upper temperature cutoff is 5 degrees F.
For warm weather stuff, if I'm working in the rain, I use straight up Grundens PVC rain gear top and bottom. Yes, it's heavy and somewhat stiff but it's like armor from the water.
I don't do much hiking in the summer, I'm usually working but I've got some old school military surplus tops and bottoms that are pure waterproof.
The secret to staying as dry as possible while physically exerting yourself in a wet environment is mechanical ventilation.
Pit zips and over size rain shell allow air to move in and out around your body and carry the moist air from sweat away.
Another absolute must is for the base layer to be as thin and large pore-d as possible.
I tried an under armor shirt and it was HORRIBLE. Might be better in a hot climate but while it might wick ok, it didn't breathe worth a shit.
I also tried a fishnet bottom layer, the job of the base layer is mainly only to keep the subsequent layers off of your skin so a fishnet base layer is perfect but after a couple days the fishnet kind of started to rub my skin raw and the salt from the sweat on the tender skin was NOT a god thing. A large hole fishnet made of soft material would probably be fantastic.
Full side zips in the bottom snow shell is vital. Lowering zippers is the best form of mechanical ventilation, followed by rolling up sleeves and pant legs. That's why oversize shells are so important, you have to be able to roll them up and expose the base layer if it's not precipitating.
And that's why proper design matters. The last two jackets I bought are actually breathable: they have adjustable air vents on the sides, rain protected by their location under the armpits, and my current one even has a moscito net for insect protection. Even during extensive biking I keep cool and mostly dry. The only part not perfectly ventilated, especially when carrying a backpack, is the middle of my back. Looking forward to the design that solves these remaining issues.
I'm looking for good rain gear. What brands do you like?
I think you'd need channels or a perferable layer to allow air throug. Like the mesh foam pads or mesh stretched like on backpacks
@@thomasr1051 Probably. I think this is already part of some motorcycle jackets.
And for the people asking: If you are looking for functional 3 season wear, ignore the outdoor adventure stuff and look for work wear brands instead and select the one with the least offensive color scheme.
@haifutter4166 pretty good bet with work wear although I've had some hit or miss. Not all of Helly Hansen is good.
why should you expect ventilated back when there is a backpack on your back?
Just discovered this channel. Instantly love it.
3:35 Schengen agreement mentioned. God i just love the knowledge of this guy!
Funny how in most cases I ended up going for the more affordable options because I simply cannot justify the price of the "Gore" tag. So by being cheap I ended up doing the right thing for not supporting a marketing scheme. 😅
OMG I've been saying all of this for YEARS. Used to be a manger in an outdoor sports shop and I hate the stuff and it's marketing. One day a customer asked me for new hiking boots and strongly stated he did NOT want gore boots. I asked why and his reply: "I work for gore". I smiled, agreed and we carried on. By far a better experience is E-vent. You may get wetter from it but it actively wicks (were gore just happens to have holes the right size, event is conical holes that use surface tension to push moisture out. Event is
a far more comfortable experience in the long run. Gore footwear is just a plastic back on your feet.
My worst experience was demoing an ultra-lightweight gore jacket on a rainy mountainside. Trust me, when you are bone dry inside, but FEEL every drip of rain, you feel the wetness of every drop (just like wearing latex gloves you can feel everything) and you are really cold. What's the point in such an expensive jacket or trousers if your entire experience is that you feel like you don't have it on. It was only noticeable when you took it OFF inside a tent and you realize your tshirt was dry but you were still FEELING cold, wet and miserable.
Gore only works when its hotter inside the garment than outside but also DRIER outside than inside. Whiiiich tends not to happen when it's raining outside your jacket and not inside. Basically Gore only works in cold and DRY situations, aka when you don't need it.
But you said you were dry. If you layered under the goretex jacket, then you would not be so cold. I wear a goretex suit every day commuting to and from work on a bike, and if i havent layered a warmer sweatshirt underneath when it rains, I feel cold. Not as much of a problem in the summer, but when it gets cold it is absolutely needed.
As a backpacker and climber myself i see some use for a membrane clothing, but ironically it's more about windproofing it, then waterproofing. When you're in a harness and carrying a donut of rope on you, and other gear attached around you don't really want to stop to change clothing depending if a cloud covered the sun or not, or the wind direction. Though any type of membrane i tried were not enough to take out the sweat if it's rainy or foggy outside without unzipping some ventilation. So i also carry a lightweight siliconized poncho for that cases.
Actually "when it's cold and dry" case match skiing/snowboarding, but you don't need a waterproothing there that much too.
@@basherboy2977but what's the point of goretex if it doesn't vent?
Surely a good ol' raincoat will be cheaper and more waterproof
@@palashbhaumik4050 It is venting, you’re feeling cold. Goretex isn’t an insulating layer. If you feel cold when it’s raining with goretex on you haven’t layered properly
People need to realize that the only way to build up that differential pressure which causes venting to occur, is for you to be warm and humid-enough to be sweaty and damp. Most of the time we will have already decided we are uncomfortable by that point and try to have unzipped vents or other things - which ironically limit the effectiveness of the movement. It does work, but it really doesn't work well-enough to keep us from being uncomfortable unless you have another layer in place. The idea that I (and probably) others had which was that a magic fabric would keep you from feeling humid or sticky because of its breathing - was mistaken (perhaps the assumptions we make because of the marketing). Membrane fabrics do have their place, but as you have rightly stated there is no good reason for us to pay a large premium for one brand over another when they use the same materials and workmanship. We have become victims of marketing hype - and the sooner we realize this, the sooner we can save ourselves some cash.
I find gore-tex useful in the snow while snowboarding. Keeps you dry on deep days, then once on the lift if where you aren't in wet snow, it can do the breathing so you aren't overheating. Also generally powder just breezes by, but it's nice to know you'll be dry when you need it. So it's up for both challenges throughout the day.
Came here to say this. I live in Hokkaido where it dumps with snow non-stop from December through March. I go snowboarding wearing a thin base layer, down jacket mid and a Dakine Gore Tex shell jacket which keeps me completely dry yet allows regulation of temperature. It keeps me significantly warmer and drier than my old "waterproof" jacket. There's a reason why all the pro's wear goretex bibs and jackets. And idk where he's getting this $1000 price tag from, my jacket cost 20000 yen ($136) and it's top quality. I guess maybe it's not a great material for riding a motorcycle but y'know, choose the right gear for the job maybe, for example when doing backcountry I keep the jacket in my bag until it's time for the descent. Testing it by going out in to the rainforest is just ridiculous haha.
@@8bitsub412 Thanks. Looking for a jacket now to come up to Furnao from Tokyo in Feb. Could you tell me the exact model # of that jacket?
I agree and this proves his humidity differential proposition. The air is likely dry outside the jacket and humid inside.
@@8bitsub412 A Dakine Vapor Gore-Tex 2-Layer Ski/Snowboard Shell Jacket here is $500!
Ugh, being cold on the chair lift for those few minutes but sweating your balls off while going down the mountain is the worst. You open up your jacket on the lift to attempt to cool off and it's instant frostbite since anything under your jacket is soaked with sweat.
Thanks for all the great content! This was especially enlightening! Now I'm wondering how long before you receive a cease and desist...
I’m a newbie to this channel and immediately a huge fan. It’s got all the features I like:
- unafraid to get into the actual science
- a healthy base setting of scepticism (especially of marketing guff)
- unafraid of being silly
- unafraid of a selfie-stick
Thanks so much! Concords with my subjective experience completely, but then adds so many layers of science, history, economics and comedy :)
Same same! That's a sub from me!
The problem is that the scientific analysis is incorrect. Gullible audience thinks they are being properly skeptical, when they are really being tricked by careless and un-rigorous content creators.
@@jacobtomasperez1719 howso might that be? as a gullible audience member myself, I would love some clarification to be un-gullabalised and informed. i would hate to be tricked by sketchy content creators like this 'fartnune' fellow!
Thank you for this excellent expose' of what was a good novel idea in the 1970s that turned into a coercive marketing exploitation second only to Microsoft's Windows shakedown. I remember a friend getting a Gore-Tex swatch circa 1975 and bringing it into our high school chemistry lab. We did some unauthorized extracurricular testing and were surprised to see that it did shed water and allow steam from water boiling in a beaker to pass through, as claimed. It was revolutionary material science at the time and a harbinger of great things to come. We were high school students in economically depressed eastern Kentucky during stagflation so we couldn't afford Gore-Tex, but we were sure Gore-Tex would spark innovation that led to inexpensive breathable waterproof materials. We were naive and didn't understand weasel marketing and industry coercion.
Really good video. Better than I expected in production!
The material kind of reminds me of Tyvek vapor barrier used to cover wood sheathing and allow the wall to breathe (so water doesn't condense and it doesn't mold) yet keep the stray leak off the structural wood. It will keep the stray drop or two from soaking in, gravity rolls it down the Tyvek, and if done right, out the bottom of the siding.
You and your team consistently make some of the most tasteful video content I’ve ever seen irrespective of topic.
The pacing, humor, edits, wit, artistic creativity and research is honestly in a class of one. Thanks for all you do.
You're doing the motorcycle community a great service by regularly debunking some of its most stubborn myths and that despite the fact that Fortnine might lose sales over it. I applaud you
People on normal bikes love it !
You feel the wind trough it, instant dry.
leather is the better option for Motorbikes, but i love Vegan solutions. Fortnite !
@@lucasrem Fortnite? You play too many games bro
Take it with a MASSIVE GRAIN OF SALT.. Real Gortex works, these guys are click bait masters.Master baiters.
@@gurubuzzzzthat makes no sense at all. Fortnine sells goretex products and is probably losing sales thx to this video
Excellent video, sub’d. What a straightforward explanation from the chemistry to the commercial.
Back in the day ( here we go another boomer story) All we had in the way of waterproof coats were either heavy, did not work or were like wearing a bin liner and then the seams would leak. The first Gortex jacket I could afford was like putting on a pair of leather shoes after only being offered plastic beach shoes before. I moved away from Gortex in the 90’s when big sportswear chains started selling their own brands of waterproof walking boots and hiking coats that worked and for a fraction of the price. What I do not understand is today’s tech savvy generations still buying into the marketing hype.
Unfortunately, no matter how much technology advances, people are still just as gullible as always, and all the old scams still work just as well in digital form.
The tech savvy generation that lines up for the latest mobile phone at $1k, that offers a new colour scheme and not much else?
They aren't though. Its still the boomers
@@peterk2455 Or does offer something mildly better..but not asking what's the point if what you are using already works.
It's not that these phones aren't better, there just isn't a point if you already have one. They may be slightly faster..but unless it was an active thought in your mind that it's crap while using it, there is no good reason to upgrade. If it's "well it's newer and better" is the only thought, it's an unnecessary upgrade.
That thought also has to be because it's slow, but not because it suddenly became slow doing the same stuff like mine. Lags whenever I turn on wifi since a few months ago, don't care enough to check out why. Probably an app that has reached a big enough size or just a bug with some app that updated because I only realised to turn off auto-updates some weeks ago after an app I was using suddenly broke. It does the same as some other apps and they were all working fine at the same time previously. This was only a month ago or two, so can't be the cause for what started at least 3 months ago.
No, it has to be because it just is slow and some newer apps asks for more resources for a smooth experience. Maybe you are playing phone games for some reason and newer ones are more demanding at the same framerate. It does save money playing phone games on the phone while you also use the phone for all the other phone stuff instead of buying both a phone for phone stuff and a Steam Deck or similar for portable gaming stuff. No savings there if the game is a PC title, as those probably won't run well on the phone. But if it's something that exists on both platforms, no point in the Steam Deck as the casual user doesn't care about the differences. I don't like phone games because my save data may only be accessible if I have superuser, so I would pick Steam Deck as that seems more accessible for that. Corrupt save profile? Copy over a backup..Also doesn't require internet, not that I would only backup using the cloud anyway. At least one local backup too.
If it's just sudden like mine, second-hand seems like the better choice if you don't want to let it be.
But those old bin liner waterproofs ("proofed nylon" if I remember) were pretty reliable and you knew what you'd get. I wore them on top when raining and took when rain stopped. Sometimes when it was half rain I'd wear them with zip open to ventilate. I'd carry a cotton windproof for when it was windy and dry.
This arrangemnt worked ok and was much cheaper
I did shell out years ago for the "Gore-Pro" super-suit which has the "Klim" badges and "super-fabric" ornamental skid sections. Since the venting is also absolutely amazing, I still stand behind my purchase proudly. Even though it's wildly overpriced, I can say that with regular washings and care, I still have an amazing suit which looks and feels almost new after over FIVE YEARS of regular use. My buddies who skimped and went with lesser models have long since resorted to the "duct tape" trail fixes following quick failures, and have been forced to buy new ones. Add in the fact that I don't need to pull over and strip down in the rain to add any waterproof layers, and I would SURELY make this insane purchase again without a second thought.
My klim traverse gortex jacket is 7 years old and still water proof. I am not aware of another product that can boast that. I do agree though that it really isn't that breathable.
A well-made, high-quality garment is gonna be high-quality either way, the fabric itself isn't really the problem. The real problem is that FINDING the high-quality stuff in a sea of overpriced sweatshop garbage using gore-tex as a marketing crutch is near impossible.
@@datalorian No rally intended. Just sharing that my quality garment was worth the stupid price in the end. Thanks for trolling.
The Gore-Tex membranes DO seem to stand the test of time, and even if they don't you are more likely to get support in replacing a faulty garment with a Gore-Tex lining than you are with a product using eVent or some other house-branded membrane. Gore-Tex seems to offer a premium product and offer premium support with it. Most companies using Gore-Tex are utilizing in their more premium lines, so there you go. I agree though, most "breathable membranes are not THAT breathable, and it is good to layer a HIGHLY breathable and appropriately weighted midlayer under it to create a breathing zone, and make sure your membrane-equipped garment has good ventiliation as well.
Awesome mate, you’ve just confirmed that I’ve thought for years, with science and testing. Great production!! 👊
The price comparison is very unfair.
It compares a laminated jacket with Gore-tex, with a nog non laminated jacked non Gore-tex, laminated jacket's are double in price because it's way more work and needs to be made wit a lot of handwork, so that explans the price difference, hense it's not the membrane!
Exceptionally well produced video and great performance of presentation. Impressive. Thanks!
I have owned various gore tex products (motorcycle, ski, and mountaineering gear)over the past 35 years. The best non goretex jacket I owned was a Lowe Alpine Triple point ceramic membrane. I tend to find many goretex alternatives are made with a cheaper method and don’t last, however some manufacturers have upped their game.
Since 1986 I've bought a new Kathmandu Goretex jacket every ten years, whether I've needed to or not. I use them for general everyday windproof/waterproof wear as well as motorcycling. They have worked pretty darn well, even on 900 km rides in torrential rain (it helps that I've been riding BMW RT bikes (R80/K100/R1100) since 1987). Designed for hiking they have a pretty tough outer skin that wards off both pointy foliage and also minor road contact. At first they were around NZ$600 (US$400, depending on exactly when) but the last one (around Christmas 2017) was a bit cheaper, maybe NZ$400. The breathable OR waterproof works pretty well on a motorcycle as you're not generating a lot of body heat and, at least where I live, when it's raining it cools off and you mostly want to keep it in anyway. I see Gore is only just in the last couple of years starting the transition from ePTFE. I'm definitely open to trying other brands and fabrics, but it *is* a pretty big investment. I see on the chart showing performance of various fabrics, though two others beat GoreTex for the total of breathability and waterproofness, GoreTex is still the most waterproof. And it's breathable enough to be vastly preferable to a PVC raincoat when it's dry and sunny! In the end, if the thing lasts for ten years then a several hundred dollar price difference is only $20 or $30 a year -- meh, just get the best.
I had one of those triple point ceramic jackets, loved it. Cheap waterproofs don't last. Got to be three layer really.
Look into the new breathable dyneema composites, their really cool
I have owned a few GoreTex shells. By far the most useful addition to the garment that is a game changer are pitzips. It keeps the humidity much lower in the coat and I still get the waterproofing effects. If the fabric is more durable and long lasting then it’s competitors then I would find it to be worth a premium price.
I’ve used Gore-Tex and “not Gore-Tex” for years in outdoor applications involving a lot of rough usage. (Logging, skiing, sailing, etc.)
I’ve found repeatedly that Gore-Tex items really are made better overall but often not really better enough to justify the up pricing.
Thankfully a lot of that pricing difference can be gotten around by buying it off season.
What ur running into there is called implicit bias, the gortex goods feel higher quality not bc goretex is actually better itself but bc if ur company can afford to license it in the first place it means u likely already r producing higher quality garments to begin with. Not saying gortex is bad at all tho, implicit bias or not it is often a sign of better quality, and as a professional that’s usually top priority.
Goretex is way better than other brands specially on the long run, i have tried a lot of different brands and now only buy stuff with Gore tex
Very well outlined! I love your delivery.
I was in my 20's when Goretex came on the outdoor gear market. Most of my backpacking gang swallowed the hype , hook, line and sinker. I remained sceptical how it could both repel water and breath at the same time. My friends spent big bucks on their goretex gear and I went with REI standard at a very cost savings over goretex. When we did our backpacking trips they all complained about how goretex was all hype BS.
Thank you Ryan for all that you do.
To be fair nothing repels and breathes though, so you were in the same boat as your friends comfort wise correct?
I get you saved the money, but I've found that the overpriced brands often have a superior build quality. I think of the Arteryx backpack I used daily for over 18 years. I only retired it because I cut it almost in half with my chainsaw by accident. It's a wall hanger now, but it still decently kept things dry till the end. My coworkers razzed me for spending 500 bucks at the time, but they invested way more in bags than I did over the years.
@@beaugalbraith3891 then you should spend your money on something known for its good build and quality. not on a brand that spends way to much on marketing to promote their so called breathability and water resistance
As a 53 year old guy who spent what was a lot of money to buy my first gore-tex rain jacket 30 years ago ... and learned exactly what is outlined here .. Id like to thank these guys for highlighting what I learned back in 1990 !!!
Same here !
Same here!
Agreed.
Why do i feel like this is a: "I knew everything you just said but like 30 years ago" type flex? Why didn't you make a video about it my guy?
You might have known about this in the 90s, but I didn't, so I appreciate the video. I'd love to see an actual test of gore-tex vs competiting membranes, because even though the chemistry might be the same, there still might be formulation differences that matter.
I'm not gonna lie that camera footage of you on the bike in your ad is absolutely mind boggling. I wish we could show the tech we have today to someone 50 years ago sometimes
At least it hasn't been cancelled for being hydrophobic.
Love your videos. Your integrity is shining through all the way to the end when you tell viewers not to buy the Insta 360 if they don't need it or can't afford it. I've used GoreTex in the past, but realized I wasn't staying as dry as I should given all the sweat. Great explanation of why, and why people still insist on buying it. Thank you for this great channel!
This is the most informative and entertaining production I've watched in a good few years. Good job F9 crew. I've shared it with all of my friends who I think would appreciate it (or should be educated).
EDIT: I had to fix it, it wasn't Gore-Tex, it was Thinsulate.
I remember around the mid-80s that winter gloves featured on a science show -- or it was part of a news broadcast -- and they were made with Thinsulate in them, the claim was that they kept your hands warm, so I asked for a pair for Xmas...let's just say that claim was false. I've yet to find a pair of gloves that actually keep your hands warm during winter.
I make my own WPB out of thin layers of either silicone coated (naphtha + 100% silicone caulk) polyester or nylon, polypropylene, and/or polyethylene (in my case, I've used/experimented with "Kite tyvek aka 1443R tyvek as an inside layer). The trick is to get two consecutive layers of long lasting (truly "durable") DWR fabrics that are breathable (WAY more than goretex membranes), but not too breathable. The first layer absorbs most of the force of the rain drops and while some water will get through that layer, there isn't enough force for it to get through the second layer (except maybe in the worst torrential downpours with gale force winds like in hurricanes, tropical storms, etc).
Combine these with a synthetic, quick drying fishnet baselayer and/or some mechanical ventilation (poncho or with some poncho type features), and you're good in a wide range of conditions. That's about as good as you're going to get until there are some major breakthroughs in *truly durable,* super/ultra hydrophobic, lightweight materials. In warm weather, I don't bother with rain gear--just wear very quick drying stuff and get wet. I over heat in EVERY type of rain gear in warmer weather doing any kind of physical activity (I run warm, both at rest and when physically active).
Sorry, I'm not thinking about motorcycle driving in this case, but more backpacking, hiking, etc. If motorcycle driving, then goretex and other traditional rain gear is fine, because usually you want a higher water and wind resistance, which these membrane based WPB fabrics provide. My biggest gripe with most traditional, membrane + DWR coating, rain gear besides the not truly breathable membranes, is that most of them use DWR's that are anything but truly durable (DWR stands for Durable Water Repellent).
(Oh, btw, I sew. The above solution is not very easily achieved without sewing, unfortunately. Tapes and the like don't stick well to these low surface energy, hydrophobic materials. Tyvek tape does to tyvek, but not so much the other stuff).
This is so good. And super well produced. And broken down into simple parts. Great job. I wish you could be my chemistry teacher.
I have had a few articles that were dry ware type items from MEC etc. They all kept me dry but the one thing that i do know with my Gore Tex gear is that the standard to which they were manufactured always seems to be better. Seams are sealed better, sewing is always a better job. They are one of the few that have lifetime stay dry warranties. GoreTex may not be the absolute when it comes to water repel/breathability, but the manufacture standards they ask for in order to use their name make better products IMHO
Fully agree. I've had many other membrane types in jackets/pants, and the cheaper ones always lets water in.. Mostly in the seams, zippers etc..
My thoughts and experience too. If you want true waterproof outer layers, just get something that is a non-breathable raingear like pioneer or many other reputable brands. Manage air flow with cuffs/closures vs. through the fabric itself.
Of course, their warranty is truly remarkable. Sometimes, even if the manufacturer who produced the equipment using GoreTex refuses to repair their own product, the Gore Company will still assist me in fixing it. It's quite amusing, actually.😂
Well yeah the ptfe/pfas stays for many lifetimes
Excellent opening, in fact I'd love to turn that into a short to raise curiousity.. but seriously Ryan you've really got character that adds to the genius of the skit.. I Hope you get paid the BIG $$$
As a marketer who hates this kind of manipulation and dishonesty, I’m soooooo happy to see this video. Thank you for taking better care of consumers than most companies do.
Thank you for caring. I'd love to hire your services some day, if only I knew where to find you 😁
The price comparison is very unfair.
It compares a laminated jacket with Gore-tex, with a nog non laminated jacked non Gore-tex, laminated jacket's are double in price because it's way more work and needs to be made wit a lot of handwork, so that explans the price difference, hense it's not the membrane!
I got my first GoreTex shell in 1980 and have a few others over the years, and this video confirms everything I've felt and suspected about GoreTex. I have enjoyed the quality and feel of the fabric some of these jackets were made from however, but learned to not really count on any "breathability." Great video.
I got a goretex reflective rainjacket a few years ago working in a mine, it was super expe sive as tailored to me, it kept my upper parts dry but wherever the wind could blow rain would get in and your feet and everything else would get soaked. It later lost its specialness after a few years, I ended up buying a can of spray on scotch guard for our lounge, as an experiment i just sprayed the outside again and it was back to perfect again. So this blew my mind actually figuring that out by a fluke. Tried it on a $5 rain jacket and its no diferent to the expensive jacket.
Cheat "waterproof" jackets use that spraying technique, meanwhile real goretex jackets do not. So they don't use their "specialness" in a few years.
@@Qaosbringera few years WORKING IN A MINE will poke holes in anything, including the special form of gore tex fabric. Then you spray on a layer of waterproofing. Of course, if a $5 jacket plus $0.05 of waterproof spray = a $50 raincoat... the goretex is a ripoff.
@@Qaosbringerwhat are you on about gore recommends nikwax dwr on all fabrics using their membranes
Scotch guard is extremely bad to breathe because of the PFAS. I assume it flakes off over time as well. We all have PFAS in us these days but the dose matters. Higher generally leads to greater cancer risk
Not exactly, taped seams go a long way along with any waterproof coating and are usually only found on slightly more expensive jackets. Most of these jackets are vented as well, so even if the shell isn't breathable, your armpits and other vented areas can always breathe when vents are open.
Brutal! Best video of which content I wasn't interested in, I've ever watched on RUclips!
Wow, high quality production on this video! I like it!
Finally! Someone willing to tell the world this was just great marketing! 15 years ago I was working in an outdoors store attempting the same with the 'better than goretex' fabrics in our wet weather gear, and it was a hard sell!
So you were trying to sell some vinyl rubbish bags, failed and now you're upset at Gore-Tex?
@@nestserauwow bro… did you even watch the video? Gore now sells knock offs the knock offs. So even gore believes the knock offs are “better” even if just based on environmental reasons which many of think is a huge factor in how good a product is. So if OP was selling the knock offs that gore ultimately copied how is that rubbish? And I think most of could imagine the frustration of trying to do your customers a service by selling them a product that is arguably better and at a minimum way better value. But then failing only because consumers are brainwashed by gores marketing and possibly illegal monopolistic behavior. Seems like you’re just upset you got scammed on your $1000 jacket.
@@JasonEisenberg81 Talking about who has watched the video... There is a chart showing Gore-Tex has the perfect balance of breathability and waterproofness. There are others who are more waterproof or more breathable, but none are in the sweet spot. Dainese is the only manufacturer which comes close. The only one! Also, if they have so much trust in their membrane, why do they sell Gore-Tex garments? You got it, they know Gore-Tex is better and they know people want it. E.g. Revit is waterproof, but pretty much unbreathable, which I know from experience. Also Revit waterproof pants started leaking on me within 2 years and had to be replaced on warranty. Not sure what happened next, since I sold them tired of them being hot as hell. Gore charge what they charge because they really stand by their products which do the job amazingly. Those who believe Gore overcharges and go for a cheaper alternative are the real victims, because they don't get all the advantages one can get by paying slightly more.
@@nestserau Don't forget to wipe your chin
@@JasonEisenberg81 A person can watch the video and disagree with some of it's statements.
Bought a Gore-Tex jacket many years ago and found that I was getting drenched when boating. I put this down to sweat that couldn't escape when I was working hard and it looks like I might have been right. But I also found that if I stood still steering the boat in pouring rain I would eventually get wet too. So "not that waterproof" may actually be the best description. I've never bought another.
I thought that too. But it is actually waterproof, it's sweat. When it gets covered in water it looses all breathability like stated in video. Some goretex hiking jackets have zippered armpit holes for this reason. If you want to make it more breathable, you have to cover it with water repellent spray. So goretex is almost pointless.
@@jellyfishiscool It's both. Waterproofing in membranes usually just works up to a certain degree. As he said, he didn't much move or sweat in the second example so him getting wet is most likely the waterproof membrane failing in keeping out water.
@@marzipancutter8144 maybe it wears out over time, but I've done experiment with my goretex boots. I put them in bucket of water and filled them with tissue paper. Left them over an hour, checked tissues, they were dry.
From personal experience Gore-Tex Laminated keeps me dry in heavy rain and I don't sweat in it like non Gore-Tex waterproof liners. Gore-Tex also has more stringent manufacturing than others. It's about a quality seam seal as much as what materials you use.
I love my RevIt gear, and have been running the Sand 3 (I think, could be a 2) for 5 years now. Love the layer system but the ONE thing I'll look for in my next jacket (which will probably also be Revit) is that the outer layer be waterproof. I can keep my waterproof liner in and be nice and dry, but the outer jacket layer soaks it up and becomes heavy and cold eventually. Having the outer layer waterproof keeps you warmer for longer as I've discovered. That is more important to me than it being G'Tex, and I'll happily save my money. Just so happy F9 has reinforced my feelings toward marketing!
Same with the Defender 3. It will take the first few clouds, but you better find shelter or wear a rain jacket.
I've got the Blue One since 2017 and my previous jacket was the 2007 Offtrack in grey - light blue.
Totally agree!
Cheers from Italian Alps.
The revit h20 jacket is amazing. Ive pretty much swam with the thing. And the inside stayed mostly dry. Little bit of leakage from the zipper. But that was an absurd amount of rain. The pants are shit tho. But it will always be better if you put on raingear over your clothing to prevent everything rotting away.
I absolutely hated it, for the reasons you mentioned. Also the 3 layer didn’t work for me. To bulky with everything in it and to loose with everything out. It did had great ventilation though.
I've been reading their new gear isn't built near as good as the older stuff. Enough so to keep me from buying a new jacket and gloves from them for a trip I just returned from.
Dude, you and your team are absolutely awesome, thank you so much for making these fantastic videos!
I was purchased a climbing jacket by a company I worked for years ago. The jacket is very high quality and withstood everything i needed it to in the field. Very waterproof, not at all breathable. The jacket had zippers all over it to vent. No complaints other than its mild stiffness
Same, I have a mountain hardware goretex jacket. Doesn’t breathe at all, but as long as you take care of it and put it through the dryer cycle as directed it is water repellant and works well
From my experience using it, hiking days through rain and snow, cycling through rain, it kept me dry and not sweaty.
Just to make it more clear, that was walking in rain for over 14 hours straight.
Yup. When tramping in warm weather get wet then dry off at camp and put your goretex on (or any waterproof clothing). If raining and cold when tramping, a poncho is good for max ventilation but really nothing keeps you dry so wool layering important that keeps you warm when wet. When on a bike, go for max waterproof. Don't need 'breathability' when sitting and wind is lowering your body temp anyway thus avoiding sweat (zip vents good for summer/hot riding).
Goretex when moving a lot does not prevent sweating as Ryan points out. It's an expensive con. Quality control by using their machinery, taping and consistency is not a con though. The stuff is well made, just not what it says it is. Cheers for making the vid to show some science behind the spin.
That condom joke got me. Stay classy Fortnine ❤