Why Motorcycles and Mountain Bikes Cost the Same
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- Опубликовано: 13 окт 2023
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Ryan F9 and The D.O.D. finally settle the age old debate: why do some mountain bikes cost as much as a brand new motorcycle? Mountain bikes don’t have complicated engines full of small moving parts. Shouldn’t they cost less than motor bikes?
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Ah the days when I tripled the value of my car by putting my road bike on top.
Ha ha, relatable!
LOL Ok, I'm stealing this ahah
Shit, I can do that by filling the tank.
@@tsubakitengai Two points!
(snort) 😜
As a mountain biker myself, I have to say mountain bike companies have gotten extremely greedy especially during covid .
We all fall down and get hurt emotionally, but only Jesus understands your pain. Follow him and he will fill your heart.awdasdadawdaaw
frugal is your word
@@redlight3932you mean smart with money ? I’ll take it.
Having worked in the bike industry for more than 10 years I can say this is false. Bike companies operate on slim margins and run on passion.
The cost of bikes increased during the pandemic because the cost of container shipping went up more than 5x in just a few months. Additionally bicycle supply chains take at least 1 years to respond to changes in demand due to manufacturing lead times. The only way to keep in the black as a bike company paying for 2x as many bikes in 2021 as you purchased in 2020 would be to raise prices, even on existing stock.
Stop. Not all mountain bikers are absolutely clueless about economics.
No debate mountain bikes are totally overpriced.
100% I'm not doing bike anymore and just bought a motorcycle this week because bikes are crazy overpriced. For the same price I have an engine that can commute on highways... no debates at all
@@Dannyb201 they are different sports entirely, while yes it definetely costs a lot of money for bikes, you have to keep in mind that you don't have to buy a $8,000 bike but you kind of have to buy a $8000 motorcycle it costs companies a lot of money to design and test the new models, as well as create 5 different types of bikes a year, whereas motorcycles often use the same design for a while. (And I would say its more fair to compare them to a dirtbike not a street bike)
@@SamuelLewin24literally nobody asked them to create 5 new bicycles a year especially since I’m not the one buying them. There’s no reason to defend this shit. I should not have to expect to pay 1200-1500€ for a bicycle that is somewhat decent. Bicycles are way to overpriced especially since governments like the German government are so keen on controlling everything and making it illegal to drive a motorcycle for no reason but won’t look into the fact that bicycles somehow cost just as much as a f ing car. A 30 pound bicycle shouldn’t not compete with a 5000+ pound car. It makes no sense especially since the materials have to be the same except in a few but nonetheless makes no sense. I get why high end once can be pricey (not to this degree) but why do usable once for the general public also have to be. There’s simply no excuses
@@SamuelLewin24 lmao no you dont have to buy an 8000 dollar motorcycle.
I remember just getting into the bicycle world when my dads brand new carbon fiber trek got rear ended on the back of our SUV. The insurance company looked up the price of every single part of that bike because they couldn't believe it cost so much.
300 hundred for just the spokes!? 😰
@@yuth8713 it was on the car. Strapped to the back of it on a bike rack
@@yuth8713 I couldn't say if they would or wouldn't. All I can do is relay my personal experience that in that particular instance they reluctantly did.
@@yuth8713 In the US
It depends on your policy.@@yuth8713
As a cyclist and a lifelong motorcycle rider, there is no way bicycle companies can justify the $7-10k they charge except that there are people with money who are willing to pay it because in their world, spending more money on something than the next guy means something…SMH
Top dollar bicycle are made of carbon fiber
Motorcycles are made of steel.
The price differences in production machinery alone is huge, let alone the material itself.
@@Agm1995gamer so is the production of engines, gearboxes, electronics ect. in motorcycles. Sorry but there is just no way asking the same price for both is fair
You think that's crazy, look at the price for wheelchairs
Yeah, carbon.. Almost forbiden from dh and hard enduro races cos is dangerous to broke, same weight with alu for the same reason... Roadies is their specialty and trail-xc, agree with the cost of production,but they didn't do anything to change that😉 money is good for the corps.
...Did you miss the point of the video? People dont bitch about the cost of a Ferrari, its just a thing that exists. You can buy a great bike for 2500 bucks, a 10 grand bike is comparable to a Ferrari, no one is forcing you to buy one but its pretty amazing to drive.
That last "It's in neutral" joke floored me. The writers at FortNine always hit
This line got me heheheh
I'm flatlined from this joke lol
I'm rolling on the floor
🤣🤣💀
I died and "it's in neutral" is written on my tombstone
For $18,000 you can have a Specialized Tarmac SL8 pedal road bike or a 215hp BMW S1000RR super bike. This pricing is purely a function of sporting good market pricing vs automotive market pricing. Mfg and delivery costs are not even remotely close for these 2 products.
If profit margins are so extreme for bicycles, then there should be plenty of competition in the market.
I mean no, that's not how competition works, if all the companies charge a shit load of money, it still stays expensive, also look at decathlon, my gravel bike is 630 euros, it has done more downhill than most downhill mtb's
@@CleverAccountName303 That's only assuming customers are willing to trust a significantly cheaper product and the manufacturer is prepared to upscale a lot just to create a low margin huge business. Even if they did, why not just build for 1k and sell for 5k? Quite a small operation remains viable without the need to source or invest millions and billions of high interest someones money?
@@iebe4388So you have evidence that good bikes are not that expensive. Does that mean consumers are stupid?
Interesting.
I do think the "market" is the biggest issue with the inflated prices though. Even with breaktrough tech, you used to be able to get a race-ready downhill bike for 4-5K. Similar bikes in modern tech that is still primarily tension-driven cables is somehow pushing 12K.
The demand and covid exploded the E-bike market
Prices whent from 3k to 4-5k and you get NOTHING for that extra 1k.
Most modern-day moutain bikes are using electronic shifting and hydraulic breaks many of them 4 piston calipers they are also completely carbon fiber including the rims and use suspension technology that you would only see on the highest emd motorcycles and sometimes not even there. $13k bicycles are not using cables there are no cables on them.
@@vincentwieserThat definitely is partially true, but not entirely. There are PLENTY of modern bikes that are nearly equivalent to tech you'd see in 2010-2014 (the last I shopped), but at 2x-3x the price.
Suspension tech, geometry, and carbon quality may have improved, but I simply don't see any concrete items that actually justify THAT substantial of a markup outside of the growing popularity.
As a former mountain biker for like 10+ years now into motorbikes, this was one of the best pieces of content I’ve ever seen
This finally answers the question I've always wondered! I buy used bikes and motorcycles, they rarely get ridden, there are so many near virgin bikes out there to slay! 😂
good for youuuu
@@shaundisch2020good ol' "rode it 4 times, got a tire puncture and never bothered to fix it"
@@shaundisch2020 yeah, especially bikes it's very easy to find good bargains compared to new bikes, ones with just 3 or 4 years already cost half as much and often with little maintenance they go back to perfect shape. I bought a 2009 Demo 8 for 600 bucks and i never thought i would get my hands on a bike i like so much (neither did i know before that i did). It's black and red like i wanted, it's the correct size for me and i love the geometry it has, with the main negative point being that the area arond the shock is so crowded that it's a nightmare to clean
@Ferrari255GTO Nice!!! I got a Specialized Pitch FS with a Chris King headset for $200 at a Pawn Shop. Used it for 4 years and sold it for $600. I think they listed it for what they paid for it accidentally, not sure. Love those lucky deals.
extremely high priced mountain bikes available during COVID are why I purchased my first dirt bike. Everything seemed like a deal next to a $5,000 pedal machine.
No joke, I bought my KTM 350 for about $10K with all the crating costs and all that included (this was back in 2014 mind you), makes no sense how a bicycle can be in that same price range when an entire motorcycle engineered to jump a hundred feet and not blow to pieces can be the same price.
i bought my Baja rouser ns 200 (the famous ktm duke 200 for latin america) used for 1500 usd, great bike for the city
8k MTB is the best bussines, you can have the same bike made by you for 2k @@GeddyRC
@@IgnacioDure no you can't.
@@IgnacioDureIn India it's called the "Bajaj Pulsar 200NS"
Yeah I bet the data on people that opted out of the hobby since COVID is eyewatering. This video is like: "it's because of a picky customer base" rather than forced BS industry "standards" lol.
Bicycle prices have inflated massively in the last 4-5 years. The quality of mountain bike parts has actually gone up a fair bit too, with 4-piston brakes, electronic shifting, etc... all technologies that were nascent WELL BEFORE the inflation skyrocketed, but for consumers were a convenient justification to spend 40% more than they did on their last bike for these next gen upgrades. But I hold that besides incremental geometry changes in the frame (and honestly, it doesn't cost much to R&D frame geos), a late 2018 pre-inflation bike is pretty much identically capable to a 2024 bike, even though the latter will retail for close to TWICE as much.
BTW, where did bike companies put all that extra profit (other than in their own pockets)? Into paying off their R&D into e-bikes, and doubling down their investments in e-bike tech.
I doubt the quality has gone up, but rater the marketing that the new crap they are selling is way better than the older one has
But some of the technology is definitely getting better, i.e more reliable, efficient, robust. Specifically brakes, droppers, and 1x drivetrains.
I'm a total luddite when it comes to this stuff, but I have to service these high-tech mountain bikes (I am a bike mechanic), and even I must admit some of the new stuff is much better, even if the marketing is pretty hyperbolic.
@@andyzacek9760 its not really "technology" i doubt. Removing a front chainring and derraileur, putting bluetooth on a bike shifter or just making the modulation better has so little engineering for it to be done. Assuming the brake pads are the same, shimano can easily make their cheapest hydraulic brakes have the same modulation and power as their downhill brakes for like 1 dollar added cost.
I'm curious why you believe these things. I don't think what you're saying is true at all. Mechanical engineering and manufacturing are not trivial, and there is real R&D that goes into this stuff.
It's funny you say that about Shimano brakes, sounds like you don't realize they ARE all the same design already. The differences in power and modulation come from the higher quality of the materials and manufacturing, i.e. spending more than like $1 extra.
For example, M4100 series are exactly the same mechanical design as M9100 brakes, but the 9100s feel much better. They achieve tighter tolerances in the cylinders by using more machining (more money) and use much harder piston material (more money, lots more R&D to develop the thermally tuned ceramic pistons).
There is simply no way to make these higher end parts as cheaply as they can make low end parts, which the exception of a novel design which can perform well with cheaper manufacturing. Novel design and engineering costs money. Bottom-of-the-barrel mt200 brakes which literally cost $30 perform as good or better than high end brakes with worse designs that we had in the early 2000s, so the overall design is definitely improving as more engineering hours go into designing brakes.
sorry for the novel
@mrnorthz9373
@@andyzacek9760 yeah thanks for schooling me, the reason i thought this way was because i thought it just had to do with mechanical advantage. Ofcourse i know the tolerances will be higher and the weight will be lighter, but it really didnt make sense to me why this would increase braking power. If you had a pulley system with the ratio of 2:1 i didnt think you could really make noticable difference by using high end polymer rope and 3d printed titanium pulleys. Anyways, of course there is engineering and R&D, but bikes dont have anything new. Its just existing design. Hydraulic brakes long existed before bikes had them, ceramic pads long existed before bikes had them, and so on. Also, are the deore brakes you mentioned same design as the xtr brakes? Is t the piston on the xtr bigger and the shifter piston smaller?
Back in 1988 I bought a Diamond Back Arrival black and yellow splatter paint for about $1,100 CAD, I still have the bike, and it still turns heads when people look at it, I've never left it out in the rain and when I did take some years off biking it was hug either in my garage or my basement depending where I lived at the time.
Now I use it to make runs to the store here in Venezuela... the quality of the build still holding up great...
This is so funny. I remember doing this calculation about four years ago when I was looking to buy a mountain bike for my local downhill trails in sunny old Englandshire... I literally could not get my head around the equivalence of cost between mountain bikes and motorcycles.
I realised that I could actually hire a 7K plus downhill mountain bike for £70 for day at the weekend. I worked out I would need to go mountain biking every weekend for 2 years before it would equate to the retail cost of the bike.
Anyway, long story short, I bought a motorcycle. ;O)
That's a great point. If ever I find myself wanting to ride an MTB, renting is something I will surely consider.
Which motorcycle?
winwin I'd say.
I'm deep into the gravel biking lifestyle. I've done my thinking and the max I'd say I'd spend on a bicycle is
I highly recommend looking into gravel riding, it's less mtb but faster road riding in the woods@@charlienyc1
the only problem with this logic is that after two years you have something to sell to get your money back...so owning is renting if you know how to maintain and handle right....
No one will never convince me that mtb’s are not a rip off and I own 5, and 3 motorbikes.
they're a rip-off when you go to sell one five years later and they've lost 50-75% of their value. that rarely happens with a motorbike
@@EatonSomeMore yep, imagin its like trying to sell a pair of used shoes.
@@EatonSomeMoreWhich is why I will never understand people buying new things like bicycles that depreciate hard and fast.
My last mtb I got for $550 (Trek Marlin 8 2022) while it retails for $1200. Basically brand new, less than 300-400 miles driven on it.
For a $550 bike it's absolutely amazing. Same thing with the bike in the video, give it a year or two and you can get used it for $3000 in mint condition.
Even less if you're patient enough.
Look at gravel and road bikes, 2k for an entry level one and most of them come with Tiagra groups ets 😂
@@EatonSomeMore… and that’s why I love used bikes
The only reason both road and Mountain bicycles have become so expensive is because... ppl keep buying them despite the price. lol
Haven’t seen a vid from you in a while but damn they are refreshing. Funny, meticulously informative and feels more honest than 99% of anyone.
I thought my parents were crazy when they bought 2 E-Bikes that each cost the same as I paid for my F800GS… and I honestly still think they’re crazy
Mark up on e-bikes is insane because of the small market and the fact that no one will undercut because everyone uses white label Chinese factory bikes.
Makes more sense in locations where getting a motorbike licence requires a fair amount of effort plus you're saving on a real helmet and leathers cos apparently people don't fall off ebikes.
Being on bicycle lanes if you've got good local infrastructure is also likely safer.
You know something? I honestly think your are right.
You don't need a license for an e-bike. You don't pay registration. They're easier to take places. There are genuine reasons to get an e-bike over a motorcycle.
@@JohnFromAccountingcant compare . Riding a motorcycle is a whole different world .
Ryan it's time to make a video on Chinese motorcycles.
yes!
I third that
You mean the new Harley-Davidson? ZING! ~RF9
on the good? (cfmoto 450ss)
or the bad? (venom x22r max)
@@FortNinedefinitely cover the cfmoto 450ss
What I love about pedal bikes is their accessibility. You don’t need to by a thousand dollar bike, anyone can learn how to work on a bike and parts are readily accessible, meaning you can get what you can afford and build out the kind of bike that best suits your needs
So happy I found this channel! I’ve binge watched about 20 videos and I don’t even ride motorbikes. Love the Analytics. 😊
The transition from aluminum/steel frames to carbon fibre appeared to give the manufacturers a free pass to jack the prices on everything. There are so many sub-categories of mtn bikes now that even industry insiders have a hard time explaining them. I ride sportbikes, mtn bikes, and road bikes so I have no dog in this fight, just money exiting my wallet. 😄
The number of bike categories are nearly matching the number of BB standards now.
carbon is so stupid I hope they will eventually stop making carbon stuff
And now the industry is going back to aluminum. The whole industry goes in circles and tries to remarket old working tech as new because they have nothing more to add, we are at the point of diminishing returns and squeezing whatever they can to get people to continue buying. The prices are high because people stupidly believe in the hype marketing and buy these over priced things and the companies keep getting away with it. Carbon Fiber as a manufacturing cost is relatively low once you get the molds set up - people will then usually defend the companies citing R&D but that is just a bs justification they have for over paying.
Crazy fact, is that carbon cost less and is faster to manufacture than aluminium
price increase came before carbon i assure you - see my post above
Being both a mtb user and dual sport bike rider I found this video extremely relatable and funny. Bought a used canyon spectral carbon recently at a very good price and still costs more than what I can get for my 2001 Transalp lol
It never really occurred to me, but the first proper MTB frame I bought cost about as much as my first motorcycle.
You mean Canyon Spectral? Because Specialized doesn't make a bike named Spectral.
And people wonder why everything is so expensive.....
But why you need that? I own a 300 EUR Merida crossway bike and it's perfectly fine.
Whatever you guys are doing to your MTB is like buying a Motocross bike, then going aftermarket and factory everything. It's pretty easy to get a motorcycle at 100k+ this way 😅
@@EscurKoSurvivability mainly. I used to ride my cheap MTB with my brother and his friends, I was constantly breaking components and having trouble keeping up with their higher end bikes. Eventually I actually broke my frame going over a small huck, cheap bikes just aren't built to the same standard.
Bicycles supposed to be cheap.. simple..
No...... that's what us men tell our wives .... c'mon man 😂
The argument would be lost for bikes if you would compare with a mass produced ebike with the same price and intented use.
Not to mention Motorcycle manufacturers engineer and produce much more parts than bike manufacturers who basically only make the frame and the assembly (if they don't outsource it to Asia
So the conclusion is really that each of these two-wheelers is being developed with different approaches. The bicycle is a combo of lower volume, customisation and charging what their customers will pay. The motorcycle is higher volume, no customisation and actually trying to get as low a price point as possible. It's just a coincidence that they both end up at the same price point, and so people (me included) can't believe they have the same value
There are, of course, much much cheaper bicycles out there that use similar production and design ethos to the motorcycle. Those bicycles are much less expensive than $8000.
Being able to get motor bikes in different sizes would be amazing though
Pro level bike....vs entry level Moto.
Completely different levels.
Its like F22 fighter....vs 30 year old Cessna
@@marcalvarez4890A better analogy would be a High-end speedboat vs an entry level Yacht. Similar price, same principles, different uses
@@bradcomis1066 yeah it'd be amazing to somehow have sizing on motorbikes, I've got long legs and I look kinda ridiculous on the smaller Japanese and Italian bikes, which I guess we're mainly designed for small Japanese and Italian men.
I suspect one of the reasons for no sizing is the sheer engineering that's gone into the design of motorbikes, considering they work so well at different speeds and loads. Changing the position of handlebars, seat, footpegs etc probably changes how it works, hence it's not offered (unless you're Tom Cruise and you can get a custom sportsbike). Still, it'd be awesome!
@@mcradical6283 Another reason is that is simply isn't that relevant when you don't have to paddle. Sure it matters, but not that much.
Seeing Yoann Barelli collaborate with FortNine is the crossover I didn't know I needed.
Crossover? Is that how he fit in the box?
I was surprised as well! Such a cool guy
was that the real guy?!
So the bicycle argument is convincing yourself you didn't get scammed. A pro with a Walmart bike will smash you with your 8k bike.
true, but that bike will be trash after 10 rides.
nuh uh
Facts😂
I’ve owned three mountain bikes over 2k and one over 10k. The difference? A couple grams and design style. As a matter of fact, my ibis mojo carbon was the first and only bike I owned for less than a year before selling it and when I did, I bought a better bike for less and a motorcycle. I now own a Deviate Claymore which outclasses the ibis all day long and a KLR 650 which can carry my Claymore not only to the trails but through them as well.
That’s a massive flex! Carrying a mountain bike on a KLR650!
“Look at all those colors.” That one’s never gonna get old!
Should've sold him on a Royal Enfield.
The funny part is that most bicycle manufacturers have just one or two colors per model per trim level. Most motorcycle manufacturers generally give at least two.
And if you get certain motorcycles, like a touring BMW, there are low and standard suspension heights, multiple seat heights or an adjustable seat, and potentially adjustable handlebars.
So there's more to it than the simplified version shown in the video.
Unless it's canyon lol, I hate their color selection.
Very few people are buying $8k MTB. As a serious hobbyist, you can get by with something around $2k for a decent hardtail, and $3k for a full sus. I am speaking about trail, rather than esoteric disciplines in MTB because as soon as you start specializing in enduro, XC, DH, you are going in "professional" territory. This video compares an average street bike, so it should compare to an average MTB.
And probably like 95% of the "mountain bike market" will be bikes in the 200-999$ range, of which 95% will never see a mountain to begin with.
They're comparing two bikes that cost the same. Why does this confuse you?
Considering where the video was filmed it is the average price for a mtb.
so YOUR average MTB is the equivalent of a Honda XR150L noted
the XR150L will also never see the race track again.... id have to go back over 15 years to see if it EVER saw the race track
Jenny, they're comparing the best mountain bike to an average motorcycle. It'd be like comparing the Queen's carriage to a Polo and asking why wagons cost more than cars.
I'm surprised FortNine didn't mention the golden argument for motorcycles:
A $7,000 motorcycle probably cost about $4,000 to manufacture; counting for the manufacturer's overhead, it's true cost may be even higher. The manufacturer probably makes $1,000 or less when it's all said and done, and the dealer (depending on whether they are honest or if they markup) probably makes another $1,000. The total profit margin for EVERYONE INVOLVED is probably only about $2,000.
The mountain bike? Probably costs an Italian deluxe sandwich and a bag of chips to manufacture, and MSRPs for the SAME PRICE as the motorcycle (on a serious note, it might cost about $700-$1000 to manufacture, which is still obscenely less than the MSRP).
For the MSRP of ANY bicycle to be the same as a MOTOR VEHICLE with full highway capability is nothing short of preposterous. Nobody will ever convince me that this is ANYTHING OTHER THAN GREED.
It's fine to be greedy; just be honest about it (although, I suspect if you WERE honest about it, nobody would buy them anymore).
You buy what you want to last, and good parts tend to cost more. My wheelset was $1k, new in 2018 and still straight as new. My Fox 36 forks were $1,100 in 2019, and I don't plan on replacing until 2030. Saved money on my custom steel hardtail frame, only $600 from Peru.
The problem is too many people think they need full suspensions. Hardtails can handle 90% of trails.
As a lifelong cyclist and motorcyclist, I just think bicycles are ridiculously overpriced. I am 58, a bicycle for a pro on the "Tour de France" is just as useful to me as a Ninja H2R is. On my bicycle, I just aspire to do some cardio workout, have a smooth ride, enjoy the scenery and keep up with my friends in the same age bracket. I believe that the gain in performance gets less and less as you increase the price. My bicycle is a second hand aluminum Wilier Triestina, good enough for me. A few seconds might make all the difference between winning and losing to a pro, none whatsoever to me. And the real stiff carbon frame will exhaust me hurt my old joints.
I guarantee you, a carbon frame bike will shake your old joints less than that second hand aluminum Wilier. Carbon layups allow for anisotropic flex and compliance (part of that high price tag people complain about). My 11 year old Specialized Roubaix carbon road bike is far more comfortable than my old aluminum gravel bike, yet when I stomp my foot on the pedal, it transfers power far better and takes off. Carbon makes a huge difference in my enjoyment and comfort on a road bike, even as a weekend-warrior dad.
Bikes are indeed overpriced, but there is a point at which one can pay too little. Ironically (or not?) the term dentist came up a number of times in this video. If you try actually riding a $300 mountain bike on an off road trail, which was put together by some clueless Wal*Mart employee, there's a good chance your spending into the thousands of dollars on dental work and or casts when the cheap bike breaks underneath you while riding.
You can get a trail worthy hard tail for less than a grand, seems like the sweet spot for mountain bikes in my opinion.
65 year old rider- love my carbon giant
my steel bikes whip and wiggle and bother my joints not at all, while my aluminum ones are hard as rocks when you mash on them and vibrate quite a bit more to boot. that said, the tire is an order of magnitude more floppy than the frame so lower the pressure a bit, get a bit larger tire, and you'll be 90% of the way there for far less cost
Just spend the time to get a capable used frame and build it up to a spec that can handle your riding. I built up a hard tail for jumps and local single track for about 700 total. 9speed clutched derailleur, 11-46tooth cassette, 120mm rockshox fork, old used tektro comp hydro brakes. It's a little rowdy on fast techy trails but keeps the chain on and it's quiet. (If you have bad joints and still wanna ride get a full squish😅)
Ive been a MTB/DH/trials guy my whole life and over the years watching pedal bikes raise in cost to insane levels. Last year I was looking at a new Trek Slash and Remedy for my new resort and DH rig.
When the shop told me the price along with at least a year wait time, I went over to the motorcycle dealership and left with a new dual sport. The motorcycle was far less than the Trek and with the money I saved I used that to buy all new moto gear.
After 20+ years in cycling they priced me out so I went moto. I will never buy a new bicycle ever again, plus a used bicycle has no resale value whatsoever. And I found a cherry Beta 250 trials moto for under 1k and runs perfectly- and that was still less than a used MTB. Its comical.
Totally agree with your final decision. Would have done the same if I didn't live in France where dual sport practice is kinda considered illegal now in many places and so far e-mtb are the current solution but that will probably evolve soon ans not in the interest of my favorite weekend occupation 😢. And if I wasn't 100+ kg (220pounds) I would probably jump to a sur Ron dealership to get a 60kg electric bike/mtb thingy that is also illegal to ride in most Forrests here
@@yordankrushkov8488 220 lbs, how much wine and cheese door you consume?
@@jamesschneider3828Mate, tall people are easily 200lbs.
I often forget when asking someone what they weight that very fact, so when someone saying 130lbs or 150lbs I'm always looking at them crazy for not having a hiigher weight.
Pre-surgery: I was 240lbs at 6'5" and with that weight mostly being muscles in my thighs and legs, and some muscle in my back and shoulders.
Post-surgery (metal rod in my right lower leg): I weighed in last at 270lb. Sure, some of that is bedrest fat, but I didn't grow super fat over 1 month of good healthy nutrionist-monitored food from the hospital.
I had a whole lot of extra weight now on just my lower right leg.
If/when I get my right leg amputated I'll really be surprised by the weight probably.
Anyways, I only said the post-surgery as I said "pre-surgery" so just wanted it to be clear.
But the point is most people that are 5'11 and 6'0 are typically 190-210lbs. Keep height in mind.
You could also argue that there's still good bikes in the lower levels of cost. While you could get a near race bike tier cost, you could also spend a lot less and still get something that will get you out on the trail. Very few people need a dakar bike just as very few people need the same bike a pro rider is using. That said, used bikes are an excellent value and even more so than used motorcycles (which I recommend to nearly anyone who will listen). All of my bicycles and motorcycles have been used.
Of course you could've bought an used MTB. High end bicycles depreciate more than cheaper ones.
The standardization in mountain bikes is impressive. Obviously there's limits on what can fit where but upgrades are endless for any brand
HAHAHA standardization in MTB industry :D You have no idea...
Bro I've been waiting 4 months for a single part to come back in stock from trek for my mountain bike. The model is only 5 years old. These companies are crazy greedy and don't support their bikes.
While all the points made here are valid, I think the most important point is where those two bikes fall in their relative performance ranges. The KTM is pretty close to entry-level pricing and performance for a street bike, and while the Norco is not at the top, it's definitely within Sight range of it. I personally have a ~$5k motorcycle and a ~$5-700 bike, which feels like a much more reasonable comparison. Both are a step above entry level with a couple of points of upgrades on them, and they're both solidly fine for me.
Yeah, pretty much a false equivalence. A bicycle that costs $7,359CAD is more on par with a motorcycle that costs $20,000CAD. Except that bicycles suck and motorcycles are better in every way.
@@mrflippantthey do not compare, at all.
I have a 2900 dollar mtb and a 3100 dollar motorcycle and I love both of them.
My used Versys 650 was $5k but I have to remind myself it was closer to $10k new -- meanwhile my new build bicycle from a custom shop, built to my spec, was $2200 (albeit for a simple single-speed bike without suspension or much else of what makes MTBs expensive!). They're very different worlds, but my Kawasaki is almost certainly rocking worse quality steel and the fit and finish is similarly disproportionate
just letting you know that i Saw your pun 😆
@@mrflippantThis comment is exactly why as much as I love motorcycles I’ll never get into the culture around them.
Just cyclist here: With bikes The more you pay the less bike you get- literally. It is lighter and more nimble. However there is a sweet spot much much lower price range. If you go past it however you start getting frequent technical issues because components are build to price and not to last. So ride what you can afford and I hope you can afford at least the sweet spot :)
Light, cheap, durable -- pick 2
@@SingleTrackMinedCheap and durable...but mostly durable. I don't expect to replace my bike in a year or two.
Or five.
Ten? Maybe 🤔
What is the minimum sweet spot?
@@smartguy9765 it depends of what type of bike you want. But I would expect that most of the population would have a long lasting good quality experience with something like 20-30% of this top tier. So not using the cheapest components or even some fakes but some sub mid grade of known brands.
Snobbism IMHO. I've rode till last year the same 2004 Merida Matts 90 and it took me to the exact same places it took me when I was a teenager. It never bent, never broke and I destroyed two helmets falling from it. Just now it reached the point where I need to replace everything but the frame. It was perfectly adequate for almost 20 years. The only disadvantage is that the world of circling is filled with classist people that think less of you if you don't have the newest bike.
I'm halfway thru this video and I don't want it to end. So good.
🙏 Same goes when choosing Running Shoes. We can still enjoy a Good Running Shoes with more affordable prices to select those in the Middle-Range ones! 😊🙏
The best reason for any price is that it is what people are willing to pay, and frequently do so for brand names instead of actual value. Ryan nailed it when he said they charge what customers are willing to pay and the answer of scale to that has little to do with it.
how many bike manufacturers are there, vs moto manufacturers, it's short sided to say scale isn't a factor, unless I misunderstand what he means by scale.
Scale is a massive factor though
On a motorcycle, if you're shorter you just sit in a different place
On a bicycle, you only have one saddle worth of space, so your only choice is frame size
Then there's suspension types because all motorcycles are full suspension
And most mtbs including full suspension vary wildly in terms of frame and suspension geometry
All motorcycles ride on road, with the exception of small dirt bikes which this isn't one of
A mtb can go on wildly different courses with different jumps, declines, and obstacles
Yamaha offer less motorcycle models than canyon offers mtb variations, ignoring sizes which motorcycles don't have to deal with
Bikes are a rip off. When you walk into a fancy bike shop, you need to realize that the margin of a new bike is paying for all that overhead. So while it's true that bike shops will charge what people are willing to pay, the price can't drop too much because of the costs of running the bike shop. If people weren't willing to pay the minimum to cover all that overhead, the manufacturer and bike shop would stop selling bikes rather than the bikes selling for "what the customers are will to pay". So that's a bit of nonsense. That's why there are direct to consumer brands that in some cases sell for half the price of the big name bike brands.
Exactly this. I've been looking through bikes basically, whole 2 last days (because i wanna start the hobby), and from what i have found out, a huge margin of bike prices is air. And the improvement to price scales, are extremely highly stacked towards the price. Basically at 1.5k you have a really good bike. Then when you pay double of that, you have basically still the same really good bike, with few minor improvements. A few, way more experienced bikers i ended up speaking to showed me how you can find a "no name" brand, that uses frames manufactured in same places, from same material, same components added to bikes, yet way more reasonably priced, than well known, expensive brands.
@@SRMal8723 look at brands like Canyon, cube, giant and so on and you'd find 600$ hardtails with a mid tier groupset
2000$ is your full sus deore/road bike 105
it's big brands like those that usually get the best price on cheap stuff
also keep in mind the groupset, it's the engine equivalent part for bikes
You’re actually insane if you think 7500 for a bicycle is a fair price
I have MTB worth 250 dollar which is very high-end model , alloy frame , 21 speed gears with Shimano derailleur , 29 inch tyre and its fantastic to ride.
For 7500 dollar I can make my own bicycle with work shop and all the required tools...
@@h49suthar None of what you've described comes even close to high spec.
@@h49suthar Which model of Shimano derailleur and shifter did you use?
@@h49suthargood luck buying all the tools for 7500 😂
@@h49suthar Sorry to burst your bubble. Run what you've got. but once you've experienced a proper mountain bike (around the 3K USD mark) you'll understand why they are so expensive... Its very hard to explain to someone who doesn't ride MTB why we spend thousands on our bikes.
What I wonder is why a bicycle tire or disk rotors or disk pads or other regular ware items cost as much as the ones in a car or motorbike? Most of them are off-the-shelf components whose new version is not developed each year but rather stays the same for a decade or so... And Other things... Why road bikes are so much more expensive than mounting bikes? That doesn't make any sense at all...
This was a great video, the evaluation from differing markets was very interesting.
I bought my CBR 600RR when prices were pretty cheap... but, my motorcycle was cheaper than my MTB.
And, as someone who does both, I find the price of MTB's insane and not worth it.
Great video! The surprise Yoann Barelli appearance was icing on the cake. Since F9 sells MTB gear I hope you guys do more MTB related content.
Can't believe you got Johan to be in this. He's such a legend. Great vid. And I love both sports
As someone who rides both this is a great video and pretty accurate!
I’d love to see an itemized cost breakdown for the mountain bike; still seems like a ripoff even with greater performance and choice (ex: work boots come in ~18 sizes, 3 safety options, and 2 colors and rarely crack a grand even for the good stuff). Most outdoor products suffer from a pretty hefty yuppie markup, as well as very limited production runs and rapid new product development (lots of choices and output but effectively no economy of scale, whose cost the yuppie market will also bear)
If you buy the parts separate from the bike you'll pay waaaaay more..
I think the problem is too many boutique bike makers out there. There's no shortage of MTBs, but if they are being made from 100 different companies, you'll never see the benefits an economy of scale can bring to the consumer.
@taylorhickman84 you think the problem with the price is too much competition?
@@FlexibleToast I wouldn't classify it as "competition", also I should have worded that differently as I feel it's part of the problem, but not the main issue.
But if you compare the moto industry to MTB industry, look at how many more MTB manufacturers there are in comparison.
If there were less manufacturers, they would be cranking out higher volume which can bring prices down. Their R&D certainly can't cost more than a motorcycle, so the only reason for their prices to be justifiable is that they don't produce in large volume.
I'm trying to give them the benefit of the doubt, but as many have pointed out price gouging may be a key component. But until we see some internal documents that show profit margins, I can only speculate.
Comment's old but so was my knowledge on this when this came out
Issue with driving down costs with bikes is that there are too many reasonable variations of things you could only change at the start
Carbon/Aluminum frame
Frame Geometry
Suspension Geometry
Suspension Size
Front/Full suspension
Gearing Ease/Top Speed
Tire size front and rear
Groupset
You're left with what would it be... 50 different options all things considered?
Then again, you could always find the bike you want with a cheaper but very much sufficient groupset at 2k
or a hardtail for 600$
I think a better comparison would be with motocross or enduro bikes which are also updated every one or two years and are just a couple of grand away from full competition bikes.
Was looking for this comment as pro level MTB is nearly the same as pro level ktm dirt bike in price
I disagree, its not even close. My 2024 KX250 has a MSRP of around 8k, pro level competition 250s are easily over 80k.
@@Carlisho but enduro motorcycles are a lot closer to pro competition equipment right?
@@CarlishoPrice vs performance. Truth is you can race just fine, and a pro can ride just fine, on any stock mx bike for that matter. The stock vs factory rides are closer in performance than a ktm390 and their motogp bikes. Especially in motocross, where privateers are running A-kit suspension bikes totaling around 24K
yeah this isn't true at all. Yes you can ride a stock KTM in the pro class and guys have done it but consider this. Buying a top tier set of suspension for your bike is already 15k US, then you're looking at around 4k in motor work, and then the tuning. Let alone the cost of development for those top tier parts that they use.
That actually makes a lot of sense, I'm looking into biking now and was floored by the prices of even moderate level stuff so I just assumed the target demographic outprices me but all those points make it make a lot more sense
No it doesn't make any sense. It is all lies...
How does it make sense 😂
I can’t believe the number of people willing to spend over $6k for a non-EV mountain bike. That’s just wild to me. And yet, $6k seems to be close to the average price of a very good equipped bike. Blows my mind knowing mountain bikes can easily reach $10k, and even at that price, they sell! Why are so many of you willing to spend that kind of money in a mountain bike? Especially when you don’t race for money!!!
How many times do we these $5-6k bikes go on sale, for like 40% off? Pretty frequently. That tells me how crazy the profit margin these bikes have! We need to stop buying them at full retail people! If they can still make money by discounting them more than 30%, then we shouldn’t be even considering buying them at MSRP! Save your money and buy only when it’s on sale!
because there are people in higher tax brackets who can afford them. Also, they all have a common kink; they want something that most people cannot afford. So yeah, ego is in the equation because as you know, it makes no goddamn sense.
I myself am an avid Mountain Biker, and work in a bike shop. The modern bike industry is a weird one to say the least, some examples the bike brand we sell almost all of the bikes the whole sale cost is almost half of the retail cost, parts from the big manufacturers are also around the 30% to 50% markup as I have been observing. Just my bike alone when I bought it in January it retailed for $5,000 and I got it with employee discount for $2,234.91 with a $10 donation to a bike charity the company runs. Another one I upgraded my front fork to the factory/ultimate version, a $1,100 ish fork retail for $584 from one of our distributors
Can I buy a bike through you dude? I'll pay you 500 bucks just to get that discount
So 50% of the money you pay simply goes to those moving the product from the factory to your hands. What a scam.
specialized
@@andrewgraham8561 A local bike shop is typically a small, locally owned business. They have to pay their employees, the rent/mortgage on the building, and local/state/federal taxes all while trying to make a profit themselves. Depending on geographical location, their business may slow to a crawl during winter months. Also, they are not just "moving the product from the factory to your hands". The bikes come partially assembled, so they have to finish the build and double check the factory installed parts to make sure everything is safe for the rider.
A single minimum wage ($7.25/hr per federal law, but some states are higher) employee earns $15,000/yr. You are not going to be able to find qualified people for that wage so you are going to have to pay more. In addition to just salary, the employer has to contribute to things like unemployment tax, social security, and Medicare for each employee (my example is specific to the US but there are similar costs in other parts of the world). A rough estimate is that an employee is going to cost you 1.25 to 1.4 times their salary. That means that $7.25/hr employee actually costs the owner between $18,750 and $21,000 each year (again you won't find anyone to work in your bike shop for that).
There is markup on literally every single product you by because no one is in business to lose money. I think people look at markup in a vacuum and immediately think they are getting "ripped off" because they don't think about the costs of running a business. No business can survive by selling a product at cost. Just having 3-4 employees a decent wage means your shop needs to clear over $100,000 in profit to just pay them. There are companies that sell bikes direct to consumer, and as you can expect, they offer significant savings if you are capable of assembling it yourself.
Why I buy all my bike stuff from AliExpress now.
As a road cyclist, mountain biker, dirt biker, sport bike user, and cruiser user, this video was hilarious and shows how both complexity and simplicity fit each hobby.
"Hobby"?
@@paulmares9815 Cycling is a hobby, motorcycle can be a hobby, means of transportation and work equipment
As mountain biker, I see road bikes as scam
@@m0nss7erKill Triathlon bikes are the biggest scam of them all
@@DuBstep115Cycling also a means of transport/commuting, carrying cargo etc
God your humor is right on the edge of cringe. The timing and the flow does not leave much space for awkwardness and therefore cringe does not set in, because you are back on topic straight away. I have seen so many youtubers ruin content by taking too much time on jokes while you have mastered the art and have respect for viewers time, even those that are here for the information not entertainment.
Thank you so much, @FortNine
One of the bigger problems here is bike PARTS also got crazy expensive. If you're not so well off financially and depend on a working bike to get you to placed (that's common in Europe, especially for youths) you might get into situations were you can't afford replacement parts fitting the group/system you have on your bike and in the case of brakes or drivetrain this can very quickly become a massive hazard to your life.
It happened during all the covid bullshit. Outdoor activities away from other became popular. MTB riding became popular, specially among people with money. This drove up prices and a lot of people buy bikes now for status.
that, and diminishing returns - if this bike is 80% of full pro - i.e. 80% of a 2 million MotoGP bike - there's a lot of ungildened MTBs way cheaper that maybe reach 70 - 60 or 50% for a fraction of the price.
Also it's *purely* a hobby machine - no one rides MTB / trail bikes to work - it's a luxury entertainment item, not a transport device.
Apparently you didn't notice, but costs for everything went through the roof during that time.
prices havent changed that much tbh apart from the fact you may need to source a bike from another country that has stock and import it which has some shipping fees most shops wont just absorb. most supply chain issues fixed now. many of the 2024 model specialized bikes are 1-2K cheaper than the previous gen models
Prices of motorcycles also went up significatly during and after covid, it was always prices quite close
Bike prices and price for quality are dropping fast today.
I think the point about buying a high level mountain bike because it needs to be durable and reliable....is kind of a weak point. They make incredibly solid mountain bikes for 1000 dollars (especially on the used market) and a non professional rider will ride just as poorly on it as an 8000 bike.
I could understand if they were talking about protective equipment like shin guards or helmets or something...you know ACTUAL insurance to protect one's body.
durability and weight mainly. also just general better function
from my experience id say: no they dont! especially not compared to what mileage a motorcycle has to endure.
ask me how i know... cracked two carbon frames in the last year by normal/intended usage.
Mountainbikes are neither durable nor reliable compared to motorcycles for their intended usecase
obviously not compared to motorcycles theyre less durable im saying carbon bike frames are stronger than alloy bike frames. motorcycle frames can be 10x as heavy and dont have to worry about most of the characteristics that go into a MTB frame@@HannyDart
@@dannygarland3637 You're dealing with the law of diminishing returns. The value of a $1,000 new bike compared to a $7,000 bike that's 10% better because it has titanium nuts and bolts is of no comparison. And there are a lot of disadvantages to carbon. Although lighter and stronger then aluminum, once you exceed it's breaking strength, failure is more catastrophic with carbon so the financial risk is much greater.
@@HannyDart i'm surprised companies still even use carbon fiber, and haven't gotten sued. It's one of the worst possible material choices for a mountain bike frame...and its obviously not advertised that their frames WILL develop microfractures at every single hit from rocks, drops, falls against hard objects...
Dont buy a carbon fiber frame, again.
I’m an engineer by trade. Personally, the R&D on the various models presented seems minimal. Material cost , excluding the carbon , is relatively cheap. Production is minimal, assembly is simple and quick. Overall seems overpriced paying 8K for a bicycle. I see a lot of of comments stating “quality materials and / or products” to manufacture the bicycles. Am I missing something here? But a good gearbox is way more expensive and difficult to produce that a few offset sprockets. But I guess this is every sport. Once you in , it becomes about what you own. Buy the name play the game
Something about paying the same price for transportation that requires peddling and takes longer to get from a to b just doesn't sit right with me.
Paying over $7K for a mountain bike is like everyone paying a $100K for a new pickup truck. If you're dumb enough to spend it, they'll keep making it and keep charging it.
7k is definitely a premium product, but you'd be surprised how easy it is to get to 3-4k while just buying mid-range parts. Even if you build the bike yourself.
"It's in neutral..." cracked me up! I was just writing about the rider to bicycle interface compared to the rider to motorcycle interface. But I still feel that the price of bikes / ebikes is on the high side, especially for the ones a step or two above, the ones welded from, what seems like, gas pipe, sporting buck-a-dozen Chinese hub motors. But one has to admit, the high prices does allow for a huge, overly huge?, range of diversity.
this video is so good on many levels.... sub+
btw neutral in the end killed me:D:D:D:D
Great video. I mountain bike, but don’t have a motorcycle. I only wish it pointed out that you can get totally viable mountain bikes for about half, or less, what the norco costs, and the used economy is all different. My main trail bike was only $2k used.
You can get totally viable 125 cc motorcycles for half or less too though
For dirt/dual sport/street motorcycles, entry level starts around $4-6k USD, mid tier is $12-13k, and upper tier can be anywhere from $17k to $40k+ (stock). My first Mountain bike cost me $500 USD, my mid level neuron is $3k, and we all know that high end mountain and e-mtbs are going to be between $8-12k, but not much more. Road bikes are more or less the same.
The used market is another story.
As someone who owns a road bike (Madone), trail bike (Neuron), and a street motorcycle (r6), I see this comparison really lacks a true apples to apples comparison of price relative to lineup position. We are comparing a beginner motorcycle to a high spec downhill oriented mountain bike. A duke 390 is the second to last at the bottom of that category of KTM's street line up, whereas that Norco is mid-upper tier. The dentist thats going to spend $8k+ USD on a mountain bike probably isn't looking at a duke 390, he's going to get a GS type maybe the Duke 1290, which is $17k. The quintessential dentist/ weekend warrior motorcycle is the BMW GS,. is a $20k bike.
but the other one is still just a bicycle its obvious that the margins are way higher.
@@byjynydjshsnny2430 100%, of course that’s true when you compare the margins on a high end bike vs an entry level motorcycle. But the margins on a high end motorcycle like a Ducati Superleggara V4 are terrible too. The thing cost $100k from factory, but is still just a motorcycle. I just don’t think it’s fair to start the conversation w “why do motorcycles and mtbs cost the same.” Apples to Apples, they don’t. I feel a lot better about the $5k I spent on my r6 than I do about the $3k I spent on my Neuron.
I would love to know how much it actually costs to produce/build a bike vs what they sell them for now, because I think the value is abysmal. The tech may update far more quickly than what you see on the motorcycle side, but it’s also far simpler. Adding something like that fancy extra sprocket up front or a dropper post is far simpler than adding traction control or a quick shifter to a motorcycle. I think the AVERAGE motorcycle’s price and value is better justified when you compare something like a Duke 390 to a high end downhill.
Great video! I think MTB’s are grossly overpriced. One consideration not pointed out is the severe depreciation suffered by MTB’s. My Santa Cruz Blur dropped 50% in one year. Why? The new model had flavor of the year suspension upgrades. I still have it and it still works fine. The difference is you can get a pre owned MTB for a fraction of the MSRP . It’s the engine on top that makes the difference. By far motorcycles deliver the most value. Best!
To be fair, if its carbon, there is a huge stigma as it were considering they're prone to cracking and certainly delamination. That primarily bombs their used value. Al frames.... uhh... idk
A great argument to only buy on the used market. New bicycles have scary depreciation.
Great point about buying used. I started buying used some years ago and realized upon selling them when I bought my next bikes that I was breaking even each time rather than losing money. My current bike would have had a retail price over $9000 when it was new. I bought it for $4000 four years ago and it could probably still sell for close to that and rivals any new bike in terms of capabilities and features. I doubt I'll ever buy a new bike at the shop again.
@@14erGuy Well mine was cheap because it needed repairs, which were dead easy to fix (thank you for non-mechanically minded sellers!). As a result, I could resell at a profit.
Depreciation is a great way to determine how much something is actually, functionally worth, versus how much you are paying for fashion or novelty. Works for many different things, not just vehicles.
One of my favorite FortNine episodes to date!
I am a motorcycle rider, and an acoustic mtb rider. It really ticks me off on the prices of good mtb, and downhill e-bikes. You can even buy new motorcycles cheaper than a lot of preowned Ebikes.
Blame manufacturers for creating tiers of suspension and drivetrain components so brands can charge more for higher spec builds. Entry level crap components create an artificial floor and MTB fans are ok with it.
There is no way it is more cost effective from an R&D and manufacturing standpoint to build 3 different versions of a shock and 4 different drivetrains.
Acoustic mtb 😂😂😂😂💯
An acoustic mtb rider...are you having hearing difficulties?
@@johnlesoudeur3653 It just sounds wrong
build one.
Awesome video! By the way I generally agree that bikes are ridiculously overpriced. Until I realized that my bicycling needs are met by a lovely Marin DSX did I just bought for $775 shipped. The thing about actual mountain biking, is that it's pretty radical what people are doing with their bikes these days. I mean it's just extreme, the speeds that they're going and the terrain they're covering, is amazing. Whether they are crawling at walking speed over boulders and fallen trees, or speeding down the side of a mountain and jumping off a cliff, it's insane that the bikes hold up. Granted, none of that riding interests me. But I can still sit back and awe of it. I prefer full rigid bikes, chromoly, BMX style bars, extra large frames so I'm in the bike not over the bike, and I like riding on super smooth trails in nature. Imagine a 10 mi BMX track in the middle of a forest. I don't want to be vibrating my 50 plus year old frame into pieces, hell I didn't even want to do that when I was a kid. I'm all about speed and smoothness within reason, and a little bit of air here and there. I blame my childhood BMX background. As for motorcycles they get stupid expensive too, the last time I looked at a Gold Wing or a Harley full dresser they were half the cost of a little fixer upper shack of a house that I bought in 2010, in Texas. I put in 20 grand and some sweat equity into that house, I'm renting it out to a buddy currently, but I'll probably retire there. It's all about perspective.
At 43 I started riding gravity parks, I'm average as hell too. Thing is I'm doing way more than I thought I could because the bike is so good. I like to say that a full squish top tier MTB is like learning magic, a downhill bike is like becoming a god. They are just incredible specimens of progressive engineering.
You have low bicycle tastes and that's great. Ride a $5000 bike and you'll find there IS a difference.
@TucsonDude maybe not much of a difference for him though. Anytime I take my 8k bike on some mild trail I feel like it is such a waste and I would probably have more fun on a cheap hard tail.
Unless you are pushing the limits most bikes are pretty overkill for most riders. Like owning a desmo RR and putting around downtown at 45 mph.
@@NONO-hz4vo Well said. Most people are not doing RB Rampage level riding, so don't need that level of equipment!
Well said! Yeah I think it's absolutely ubsurd the scam Specialized S-works is pulling off with their 10k+ bikes, but anything under 8k is very reasonable to me. Anything past that is way overpriced. It also depends on your riding, a average rider could easily ride a 3k bike and still have a blast, it just depends on your needs and skill level.
It really was a deep yet fun video. Especially the debating part 👍
I bought an enduro mountain bike (like the Norco in the video) new for $2200. It handles anything I can throw at it. I can ride expert graded trails on it and it's never broken beyond the typical wear and tear of the sport. I've had it 7 years now and plan to keep it at least three more. Seeing people dishing out $8k and more for a bike every couple years is proof that the industry are just charging what people will pay IMO.
The truth is that the vast majority of riders don't need an $8K bike. At that price it's a serious case of diminishing returns, and with benefits only high-level racers will really avail of.
2k is still very expensive for a mountain bike.
I dont get it, its supposed to break?
@@mrnorthz9373 I'm saying you don't need an 8k bike, when you can buy a 2k bike and get around 10 years out of it.
@@Liamwillis oh well, i misunderstood you, mb. I was trying to say that the video was talking about how even it can sell for 7000, not its price but youre probably aware of that. Anyway id still argue 2k is still overpriced for a mountain bike.
As a lifelong motorcycle and MTB enthusiast, AND someone that has raced both ( going back to the days of NORBA in the early 90s ) I'm going to call BS on nearly everything NORCO guy said. Most of those "advancements" are minor and barely noticeable to most riders, and are the equivalent of BNG. suspension tech is marginal at best when compared to a motorcycle because the forces it has to act against are often counter acted by the forces generated by the rider. so it has ALWAY been a struggle to figure out how to actually make the boingers boing without turning them into a pogo stick while under power (pedaling). this has seen so many iterations of tech and design to try to solve this problem, its impossible to list them all. shifting is done by the mostly unchanged basic design as it has been since the 1960. yes there have been refinements, both good and bad and sometimes downright gimicky. But at its core, its the same as its always been. Braking has improved, tires have gotten better, there have been some improvements in construction. frame geometry is ever evolving but its usually highly specialized for what that particular bike was meant to do. you arent going to want to ride a DH or FR bike XC or on the road, and vice versa. lets face it, all the REAL advancements that were game changers are generally written off because they cost too much to make actually justifying the costs. The truth is, people want pro level bicycles because they want to feel like they are special or superior. The reality is any mid tier rider/racer, could mop the floor with the average weekend warrior on their top tier bike while riding a mid level bike. If people really want to be faster better and safer riders, train. spending 8 grand on a bike wont get you there.
As Ryan pointed out, for average use for motorcycle consumers, you don't need all the top tier gizmos. and even having them, most cant tell the difference anyway.
I mean he is a manufacturer rep - can't be trusted to not have a biased view. I agree with everything you said.
@@corail53 you aren't wrong, every time he opened his mouth it was a sales pitch of techno weenie speak. It reminded me of sitting around the local bike shop back in the day, and having Mr. road bike guy come in to order that special seat post that are 16 grams lighter than the one he had, because he was convinced it would shave a tenth off his times.
There is such a thing as "credit card speed" - shedding grams, deep-section rims, etc absolutely do make even an amateur cyclist faster. Of course no amateur cyclist *needs* a pro-level bike, but it is fun to throw a no-compromise race machine around a corner in a way that is hard to describe.
That said - I agree with everything you said, the eye-watering prices are insane and really not justified by the marginal improvements that are mostly just marketing anyway. What makes it even more disgusting is that quality control is oftentimes nonexistent. I had to warranty the frame of a fairly upscale MTB because the holes for the bearings didn't properly fit the bearings. Spesh recalled a bunch of stupidly expensive bikes because their forks can break and kill the rider. Shimano is recalling hundreds of thousands of cranks because they can literally fall apart. Shit like that just doesn't happen in the motorcycle world (or car, or any other industry), at any price point.
@@bloopasonic if you think the "no compromise " bike at the local shop is the same thing your favorite pro is riding, you are fooling yourself. those guys are all running full custom with one off or even prototype bikes/parts. It's been that way forever. even cog sets are often custom built. I Used to have drawers full of custom built XT and XTR rear cog sets for different courses in ratios that you would never find in any parts catalogs. There was famously one racer that jumped ship from his primary sponsor, but continued to ride the frame for years just repainted and relabeled to the new sponsor. Everyone knew, you could tell just by looking at it, but nobody talked about it.
@@Treacherous_One AFAIK the UCI rules require all parts used in competition to be available to the public? Some teams also sell their competition bikes at the end of the season, so it is quite possible to get an actual pro bike.
But I don't really care whether my bike is identical to the one ridden in the TdF. I would love to get a bike that meets the same QC standards though - I bet Tadej or Jonas don't ride a frame where the bottom bracket is undersized and misaligned.
Awesome seeing Yoann Barelli in a F9 video. Not sure i love the comparison of an enthusiast bike vs an entry level motorcycle though. In both sports, you can pay a lot for marginal gains. My mtb cost $3300.
I don't have a motorbike yet, I do ride a road bike regularly, but I had to sub because your videos are damn well done and entertaining!
This is the most entertaining and educational video i have seen in such a long time !
as a mountain biker, (having owned multiple mountain bikes with just about the same price range bikes you showed), i agree that its very overpriced for what it is. But you do have the option to go spend 1/4 less and have the same fun, experience and exercise as the high end ones. It's just more satisfying to have access to pro level frames and components and a sense of pride of ownership of your bike when see the pro athletes compete in world cup and you have the same exact stuff at home. I think these prices are more geared towards professionals and sponsored athletes but at the same they make it available to the public to purchase.
Not only that, but I would also argue that owning a lower end bike will allow you to become a better rider in the long run. Without pro level suspension and drivetrain, you have to work harder and learn how to use your body to compensate in the areas where the bike lacks. Also, you will have to repair and upgrade parts more often which helps a beginner to learn the mechanics of the bike and gain experience in problem solving.
Imagine spending thousands of dollars extra just to have the same stuff you see on tv. You’re such a squid 🦑
The apple of the transport world.
Buy less, pay more.
I had a Norco Shogun BMX bike as a young teen (bought with my own money). I really liked it, for the week I had it. I was selling raffle tickets for a charity fundraiser and when I left it alone for 5 minutes in a townhouse complex, someone stole it and I never saw it again. I replaced with a Supercycle bike that was about $100 and had that thing for a decade. Never locked up, just sitting in the back yard, ended up donating it to Goodwill when it was just taking up space and wasn't getting used.
The racing argument is a solid one. It also holds for road bikes. I can buy Jonas Vingegaard's Tour de France winning bike (in fact the UCI requires pros to use production bikes, or pre-production models that will be produced), but I cannot buy a pro level Moto GP bike, and the mechanics to keep it fettled.
That said, there are very few capable sub-2000 bikes on the market these days, which is a shame.
Coming from India, where bicycles too are considered a means of transportation still, budget mountain bikes for fun purposes and entry level motorcycles for commuting/Sunday rides is what i think is the best thing ever. Spending so much on a bicycle is just a first world problem in my opinion (though I cant deny tons of Indian riders are there too buying stupid expensive cycles) but there is no replacement for engine displacement and crotch-rockets are what you need once you learnt how to balance a pedal bike.
I maintain that mountain bikes are GROSSLY overpriced because the push pedal bike club have turned into an IDENTITY rather than people buying a product. Overpaying for bike parts and being gaslit into needing every last "innovation" is what theyve allowed bike companies to push on them to stay a part of the club. Wont catch me dead paying motorbike prices for a mountain bike.
You said it. People buy the marketing junk hook line and sinker in this industry and it is literally going in circles. We are seeing "new innovation" when it is just a rehash of something that was invented 20 years ago. The ever-changing standards in industry are just there to keep people buying.
You see the same thing in the motorcycle world with Harleys. Don't get me wrong, I love them, and I get why people ride them. But the pricing for new Harleys is the same thing as the mountain bikes. It's become an identity and they charge whatever the market will bear.
Nail on the head. 100% correct. And bikes are the absolute worst product for this type of faddishness.
It has nothing to do with amortization of costs. Heck, if it did the opportunities to amortize costs would be greater for bikes since they ALL take from the same parts bin!
Yeah cos bikers don't feel any kind of identity and never buy into brand marketing
This guy trying to say the 8k bike is close to race..... hahahahah bs
As the owner of a 20-year-old, custom fitted and built Tommasini that would rival most bespoke suits in the amount it measurements and adjustments it took, it really was hard to understand how few factory options my motorcycle had. I guess manufacturers know the aftermarket will fill in the gaps. My Tommasini cost me $13K at the time, and the motorcycle I was riding was only $6k. My current motorcycle is only $9k. I justified the price on the Tommasini because I was an amateur racer at the time. Knowing that the bike was a 1 of 1 also helped with the price. I still race that bike today even though I have several others. There is that special magic in that machine.
I'm just guessing, but the fact your body is the 'engine' would require the need for extremely precise measurements?
@@nailbiter82, mostly for building the frame to the correct sizes. In my case they lengthened the top tube 4 inches over what a normal frame my size would be to take out the twichy nature of just extending the handlebar stem. The chainstays were lengthened and bent differently to allow for more heel clearance. Handlebars that are wider with a shallower droop. Lugged steel frame that is as light as carbon fiber. They even took into account that differences in my arm and leg lengths. like I said, it was like buying a tailored suit. You really got to spec each aspect of the bike. Even the lugs that hold the tubes together had options. The final bike I could ride all day comfortably. It was the same as buying a motorcycle and getting to spec every component down to the type of padding in the seat. It is overkill but so worth it if you ride a lot.
@@nailbiter82 Also, people of very different sizes typically buy entirely different motorcycle models in order to get a good fit.
High quality writing. Great video!
I spent nearly $500 for a maybe upper midrange mountain bike - in 1995. So around $2k for that same level in 2023 isn't too surprising. As for a $7k mountain bike, well that really is some insane tech compared to even top level stuff nearly 30 years ago, and as always top end products tend to have much smaller customer bases.
I have the “why is your bicycle so expensive?” discussion several times a year. Now I have a slickly produced video with a great cameo to do the talking for me. Thanks for another banger, fortnine!
Side note: I was wondering if Ryan ever got back to it after falling badly in that downhill race. Looks like he just got a nice new Sight!
he finally realized he was in neutral the whole time back then.
Lets be honest, yes mtb has exotic parts which are for weight reductions but parts are overpriced really. Btw im a mtb biker and motorcycle rider as daily commute.
to an extent you are not wrong but everything they said in the video is also true.. to customize your motorcycle you literally have to do it all after-market.. most $5k+ bikes from dealers, you customize as you want to so it's the final product...
@@adam346 Yep the customizable option of bike are really helpful for riding it really make your own bike technically. It just really depends on how deep your passion is and how deep your wallet is 😅 but great video btw hahahaha nothing against it just having honest thoughts about bike industry.
Well, it's really the drive components and suspension that costs an arm and a leg.
No, I'm wrong, a "good" wheelset costs two arms, and carbon fiber frames haven't gotten cheaper either.
@@PaulSpades yeah try a kidney for wheelset 😅
@@PaulSpades suspension and drivetrain components are such a racket. Brands create multiple tiers so they can set a price floor with the terrible cheap stuff and then have huge premiums on the higher spec stuff. From an R&D and manufacturing standpoint, it makes no sense to offer so many tiers of the same product.
This is a valid look into mountain bikes, but i feel as if the ending was disingenuous, because you certainly can order plenty of parts to customize your motorcycle. As a KTM owner, you can easily double your cost by getting different ergonomic seats, lowered suspension coils, colored levers, etc.... but sure, i enjoyed learning a bit more about mountain bikes.
I got into competitive cycling when I was 12, and am now a recreational, slightly overweight 50-year-old. Cycling equipment has always been overpriced. BUT the good news is that it's possible to get bikes capable of very high levels of performance without having to take out a second mortgage. For example, an aluminum-framed road bike with Shimano 105 mechanical and a good set of racing wheels will enable you to be competitive in any amateur-level road race or criterium. And if you're good enough to go pro or semi-pro, your team will give you a super-expensive bike to use. So don't fall for all the peer pressure; be the rider who's more "go" than "show."
Thanks for the advice but id also argue the budget bike you mentioned costs too much
@@mrnorthz9373 Well, ultimately some people can't afford some sports.
@@honestreviewer3283 no, not like that. Im saying its overpriced. Im not too familiar, but id assume a setup wth 105 and aero wheels would cost around 1 grand? Thats still way overpirced for what it is.
@@mrnorthz9373 Yes, cycling stuff is overpriced, but even adjusting for that a grand wouldn't get you much considering the technology and materials involved. A $1K bike wouldn't stand up to the demands of racing, and would be built with heavier materials. Same deal as with motorsports - the lighter and stronger materials like carbon fiber and titanium cost more, and that's not even taking into account all the engineering required to get them to perform as intended. Below a certain level, you're just not going to be competitive. To be competitive in road racing, a decent new bike that's not going to break on you (like the one I described with 105 and racing wheels) is in the $2-3K range minimum, and then add another ~$500 minimum for helmet, pedals, shoes, etc. So, yeah, it's an expensive sport, but there's no reason whatsoever that amateurs (non-pros) need to go out and spend north of $7K on a bike to be competitive.
@@honestreviewer3283 i dont understand what youre trying to get at here. Im not denying that youll have to spend a lot to get something competition level. Even with all the carbon fiber, i doubt the engineering and manufacturing costs are that high. Ive spoken to dudes who work with carbon fiber and they say frames can sell for 3-5 times less than what they go for right now. If the industry wasnt so stupid id argue that top pro level bikes would cost maybe 2-3 grand.
As a mountain biker i found this video very enjoyable! Lots of these things are what id consider pretty big problems with the mtb and even bicycle industry as a whole.
Yep. The bike industry has lost touch with the largest market, what the average consumer wants, and is instead pushing technologies, labeled as "improvements", that are bad choices for most people. Two examples are hydraulic disc brakes and 29" tires.
@@ADAMJWAITE Lol, hydraulic disc brakes on mountain bikes are pretty damn useful, come on!
@@ADAMJWAITE WTF, did you actually just say that hydraulic disc brakes are not improvements?? JFC basically the worst example to pick, I absolutely would not give up hydraulic disc brakes
@@ADAMJWAITE bruh hydraulic brakes are one of the best improvements out of all of the tech that you could have picked.
@@saturn5mtw567 What I said is they're the wrong choice for MOST people. There are a lot of downsides to hydraulic disc brakes and very little improvement over cable actuated brakes. Namely, cost and ease to maintain. Sure, if you're a hardcore racer or don't mind the cost of paying a shop or spending a significant amount on specialty tools and knowledge, then there are benefits. But that's not most people. It often ends up being cheaper to replace, then maintain hydraulic brakes. Whereas cable brakes are cheap, parts are readily available and they're easy to maintain.
There is a really good point being made at the end of the video about motorcycle ergonomics. It's crazy that every bike doesnt have at least some small level of seat and handlebar adjustabilty as a standard feature or as part of dealer setup.
Kawasaki have the 'ergo fit' system with different seats, bars and pegs - although the prices for the accessory parts are too high in US and Europe.
There are a few things you can adjust with simple tools, RevZilla made a pair of videos on the subject. And then everything else is adding parts, from $39 risers to $390 seats. But you're right, it ought to be complementary if the dealer's gonna charge for setup anyway.
Still funny how we have to go with a different number of cylinders to get a different frame size...
Do you really want to pay $30k for a KTM 390 with all those complexities introduced in the manufacturing process?
lately most bike has some handlebar adjustments, and most seats has two positions. So I think at least it's getting better.
Yeah, its very good point when someone says it out Loud. I get bigger frame is bigger change than it might look like but literally no sizing is So strange. I want a small motorcycle and Best thing I can buy for my size is scooter because 125s/250s are usually very small. I dont want to buy 600 or bigger because I am sure it hard to stay in speed limit in city and I See people struggling with the weight of bigger bikes in traffic
how much would a motorbike cost if it had a hand laid carbon frame, 90% of components all CNCed and from multiple brands all needing their own margins and all hand assembled? Not meant as a dig, I'm genuinely curious
I think its mainly that MTB's are more bespoke than motorcycles. If you buy the "walmart" bikes, they cost like 200 bucks, it's a bike, it works but you cannot do anything near what professional MTB's do.
MTB's cost a lot because they're basically bespoke, the designs haven't settled. The walmart bikes are based on settled designs, they work and they're mass producable, but severely underperformant and unsafe in rougher conditions. However I find it hard to believe that you need to jack up the price by 10x to get a good bike. What may factor into it is weight, lighter and smaller means precision is much more important for robustness.
Also most bikes do not cost 8000? im sure 1000 is enough. Old tech is reliable, functional and cheap, issue is probabaly finding a frame that supports oolder tech I guess.
same reason a phone or coffee maker cost as much as a motorcycle....... people have more money than sense
8:45 "It's in neutral" hahaha😄
If you want a fair comparison, you should either be comparing:
- The Duke 390 to an entry level street bicycle, which you can get for a few hundred bucks, or
- The Norco bike to a Ducati, which depending on the model can cost more than an SUV or even be in the same ballpark as a super car.
The cycling industry is really ripping us off. I mean how many moving parts is in a motor bike compared to a bicycle , and they still can't make a round bottom bracket
Oh this is going to be interesting!
First note: The Norco is a lot more expensive of a bicycle than the KTM is for a motorcycle. You could get a much cheaper brand new MTB, but that KTM is already on the sort of cheaper half of the spectrum. It's still a valid comparison, but I do think that they exist at different areas of their respective value for money ranges. Edit: Ah yes, as you bring up later in the video :D
Heh, also like: "Why do you want the pro-level racing bike if you're not a pro?"
Well, I guess a lot of people would buy the KTM MotoGP bike if KTM sold it at 8k and it was perfectly legal and practical to ride 🤣
Yes, kind of like how a Ferrari is the same price as a Semi truck tractor, but they are in very different classes
Norco is an absolutely average brand, nothing special about. KTM is more premium compared to Norco as brand goes...
The more expensive half of the spectrum also offers a lot more technology and newer more finetuned parts. Like they said in the video. A lot of bikes are cheap because theyve been the same for decades. But compare that to goldwings or the bmw gs'. The list goes on and on about the technology that gets put into those machines. While with bicycles its mostly just ergonomics
The point is that they cost the same, but the motorcycle does vastly more and is made of far more parts.
There is simply no justifying these expensive mountain bikes beyond saying that it's what the market will bear.
My neighbor here in NZ has a $19000 carbon fibre E-bike that he bought used for about $12000. The depreciation on these outpace motorcycle depreciation I would think. Probably due to the tech advances noted in the video. I could get a 2 year old KTM 890 right now for $19K with less than 10K kms. Like someone else said here, it's about status.
It's more of a thing where the boutique brands that become reputable in the community will hold their value, because they are made in low volume. A 90s Klein MTB or Yeti is still a 1000 dollar bicycle
I've been so confused by bicycle prices my entire life man. Like in my head there's no way you can convince me that a bicycle has more R&D cost and manufacturing cost than every piece of my $2500 custom built PC, combined, multiplied by 2 or more. It'll never make sense to me, but I'm glad others are so enthusiastic about it. I'm just gonna stick to my 1984 Suzuki FA50 I got for 300 bucks when I was in high school lmao
8:11 is a massive component to this topic. Manufacturers are moving to completely cut out the bike shops (a bummer) but does anybody really expect a business to just give all that margin to customers when so many people are buying expensive bikes? Bottom line, businesses will react to sales performance so if people buy fewer high-end MTBs and buy MORE mid-range to low range bikes instead then that’s what will be offered. As many people have pointed out, you can still get an awesome $2-3,000 MTB but everyone wants the top of the line, newest components, unique colored dentist bike.
13 years ago I was super involved in Mountain biking specifically cross country, I competed and won multiple state and national championships even giving it a go for the Olympic Team, at the time I had to work on a bike shop and my salary would be exchanged for components to build my bike from scratch, ended up up building a trek elite 9.9 worth 7.5K for around 3.9K, now that I ride motorcycles Im getting the itch of biking a little bit just for fitness, but I can’t wrap my head around the pricing, thats why in giving bikesdirect a go because the pricing seems much more fair for what you are getting.
I've gotten a couple of bikes from BikesDirect. The road bike I got, I put about 15,000 miles on it bike commuting until I retired. For almost everyone, a BD bike is going to do just fine.
Wow, you were almost Olympic caliber? That's impressive.
I'm sorry you missed out on the Olympics and a Knighthood, but what did that brag have to do with pricing?
@@number4cat1 How is that bragging?
I got ripped off by bikesdirect. They took my money and didn't send anything. Avoid at all costs, literally.