10 years in the U.S. Army during the GWOT. Never needed the Forward assist outside of firing blanks or when I had a tight magazine that didn't let go of the first round. If your M16 is beat to shit then have supply send it to the shop for repair.
@@Cube210 keywords there, "US ARMY". My keywords were " Worn out boot camp A2s" If you pull a used recoil spring out of a rifle and compare it to new, it's quite a bit longer. I think that's the issue.
As someone who has actually used the the FA for its intended purpose, I find this whole discussion mind-boggling. If you've ever shot a shitty m16 that your granddad could've fought with, then you have no reason to hate this thing, even if you never needed it.
I have an AR-15 built to reassemble a M16A2, and I have used the forward assist a couple times. Granted I live in California so that might have done something
No you're wrong. Stoner's design is infallible and you would never need to have FA on it. You're just a stupid rube that would make the malfunction worse. Now buy this $2000 rifle with a plastic lower and a faxon barrel
I served with a 20yr old M16, I cleaned and lubed it correctly, shot nearly 8k rounds through that rifle and never needed the FA once, nor have I ever witnessed it
The more people I hear on the internet talk about how often they've used the FA for its intended purpose, the more convinced I become it's a shitty rifle. All the other AKs, and FNs, M1s, MP5s, and even M4s and M92s and Glocks... billions upon billions of rounds collectively... no forward assists. But, for some reason, the AR *requires* a forward assist in order to function on the battlefield. I have no doubt it served a function at one point in time, hand crank starters and rabbit ears on TVs served a function at one point in time too.
@adamlucas4753 You're somehow forgetting the forward assist supplants the fact you can't push the bolt forward directly. Basically all the guns you listed you can push on the charging handle or slide to achieve the exact same thing that a forward asisst does lmao this is clearly dorky anti AR cope but you forgot how guns work
is this the evil hacker that the news warned me about??? in all seriousness, the FA hate seems to be borne out of a weird corner of min-maxy video-gamey stats obsessed people more than anything and also a weird cult around stoner and the idea is that he's infallible. closely related to govt profile hate and A2 sights hate imo
Anecdotal, but I was in a class once in the back of the line during a drill. I noticed my bolt wasn’t in battery. I pressed the forward assist, the gun went into battery and ran fine. I’d rather have it and not need it than not have it and need it.
Had similar happen for various reasons including in the last few years some out of spec rims. It there for a reason. Can you live without it? Yes. Is it better to have it? Yes.
You will inevitably eventually catch the charging handle on your gear and unlock the bolt. It's nice to smack the forward assit and not rack the rifle and dump a round
I haven’t used it a lot, but when I did it was convenient to have. During basic it was -10 to like -20 F and a lot of our bolts would freeze, or just slow down from the clp we were using. If you fired quick it wasn’t as big a deal, but in between strings of fire you’d have malfunctions. No amount of sling shotting would bring a round fully into the chamber. But yeah it’s useful when a rifle gets to dirty. I’ve had an ar I was testing lightweight parts on, go down in less than 100 rounds when using a suppressor. The answer would be to just clean it, but sometimes you don’t have that option. Anyways, thanks for the content!
I still find it funny that people take offense at the forward assist, as if a little surprise tool that can help us in a pinch is an assault on the heavens or something
I seriously wonder how the actual hell anyone who has used an AR-15 hasn't at least once rode the charging handle a little bit and not gotten the extractor over the case rim and then realized why the forward assist exists.
@thinkharder9332 exactly Everytime I hear that I think of how absurd it is that you just had a fuck up, it didn't positively go in all the way your rifle just fucked up sorry because the AR sucks, but dealing with it by forcing the unique AR bolt in harder is like the opposite of the solution any riflemen would turn to
@@jakeevans8819 Yes you can. Just don’t forget to drop the mag or you will double feed and then you’ve got a real nasty jam. The forward assist just takes less steps and is slightly more idiot proof in my opinion. 100% necessary? Of course not. Just a nice thing to have.
When I was a door gunner on the space shuttle the liquid propellant in those rounds would swell depending on if you were on the sunlight side or the dark side. It was always needed there 😁😁
I’ve used it in the Marines. I have AR’s with it personally, and I also have 2 that’s don’t have a forward assist. I much rather push the button than pull the charging handle again. When you shoot XXX amount of rounds without cleaning and it’s old it will eventually not seat the bolt properly. It doesn’t weigh anything. It’s just there. I don’t even think it’s there until I can push it that one time when the bolt isn’t seated.
Keep in mind Eugene Stoner also designed the A1 rear sight the way he did because he was worried about soldiers fucking up their zero by treating the windage and elevation adjustments as fidget toys. Still a great designer but as you said he was wrong about a lot of stuff.
First AR was a birthday present to myself and a slick side AR. Took it out in 20°F snowy MN. A good time was not had. Being a lefty I discovered that you can tell a 5.56 from a .223 by how much the case burns you when it goes down a hoody. Between strings of shots snow blew into the action and froze the action. I immediately ordered a stripped upper with a deflector, ejection port cover, and forward assist along with the parts and tools for a better upper.
The Cult of Stoner really pisses me off sometimes. "Stoner said the forward-assist was dumb, He's OBVIOUSLY RIGHT! I mean, if you have a feeding or jamming issue in a firefight, you should absolutely field strip and wipe out the dirt. The FA could break a $150 part of a $5,000 weapons system. However, that troop it took up $2.4 mil just to get through basic is absolutely expendable, in comparison."
Finally someone gets it. If a bolt requires a device to help it travel rearward, why would you deliberately withold any means to also help it travel forward?
Over the summer I ran a M4 through about 700 blanks without cleaning it. I utilized full auto for about 500 of those. Blanks are notoriously unreliable if there BFA (blank firing adapter) is not used correctly. There also known for running dirty. Although my BFA was used correctly, my M4 dried out about a week into this FTX. No CLP in sight. I used the forward assist for the first time, and multiple times during that FTX. I utilized it, but that’s just my experience.
The M4 is another animal because of the feed ramps. I loved my M4 because for the first time, I wasn't having to use the forward assist all the time. With the A2, it was a constant battle, and this is across a number of issued weapons. Those things just didn't like to go into battery.
In the Army back in the 90's we were taught to do the S.P.O.R.T.S drill. It stood for Slap, Pull (charging handle holding it back), Observe (the problem round ejecting), Release (charging handle), Tap (forward assist), and shoot. But in practice, tapping the forward release wasn't the first thing we did. This takes into account something like a bad primer for which no amount of tapping will help you. I still operate my civilian AR-15 the same way using SPORTS.
An argument that always came up from Sullivan or Stoner is that the M16s only had problems that a forward assist could rectify because the Army issued ammo that the gun wasn't originally designed for. Okay, fair enough. But in reality, this is a strong argument FOR the forward assist! We know the military doesn't care, is full of tightwads, and it is not surprising (in fact, expected) that they would pull some crap like that! Why wouldn't you want your piece of equipment, which you designed to save soldier's lives in combat, to be resilient against this kind of BS they have no control over? An 18 YO infantryman doesn't care about the couple of ounces saved by not adding a forward assist, they just want their boomstick to go boom when they need it to so they can go home to their families.
I've personally had my ar freeze before, after one round the bolt wouldn't seat all the way forward. After 2 good smacks of the forward assist, I got it to shoot the entire magazine. All my go-to guns have some way to force the bolt home.
I've had multiple times where I've had to operate particularly dirty ARs with no forward assist and it often results in fucking around with them for a couple minutes until you actually get it fully chambered and every time it's happened I've said out loud "SURE WISH I HAD A BUTTON I COULD PUSH TO SOLVE THIS"
Even if the sig spear replaced the primary weapon platform (which it won't) it's still just an AR-10 with no buffer, beefier lugs and breach, and a short stroke gas piston instead of a tube.
It does have that hotboy caliber that shoots slightly flatter than .308 out of a shorter barrel. Personally though I think the entire program isn't worth all the taxpayer dollars spent on it. The polymer cased ammo technology that was developed in the program is nice, but there were already companies working on that in the private sector beforehand.
@@teabullsWhich ironically would make it an AR-16, since the AR-18 was a miniaturized .223 version of that the same way the AR-15 was a miniaturized AR-10.
I have a bit of a long winded reply to "why would you need to close the bolt quietly?" and it pertains to my experience in a Patrol Base in the middle of the woods in NC during my training as a rifleman in the USMC. Prior to stepping off on an ambush patrol, we had been staged and set in a defense in condition 3 (magazine inserted, bolt forward no round in chamber) with our service rifles, which were m4's at the time. Our combat instructors had informed us that an "enemy" (other marines playing Opfor) had heard us racking our charging handles and chambering a round before stepping out of the PB and thus had compromised our LPOP (listening post observation post, basically a forward position dedicated to literally listening and observing for enemy movement with the order to only engage in the event that your personal life is in danger.) After hearing of this, our combat instructors had us insert the magazine and ride the charging handle all the way back and then tap the forward assist until the bolt was seated, basically making it silent in action. This made us chambering the condo one round silent to the enemy. the ambush patrol was successful and although the enemy eventually did compromise our PB, it did delay their activity by about 48 hours
My assumption has always been that people used the charging handles of past designs as basically a forward assist, and now the AR lacked something like that, so better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.
I’ve don’t have an AR yet, and was on the fence about the forward assist, even going as far as searching for an upper without one. The thing that won me over in favor of the FA is the in the dark scenario. It’s peace of mind in an instance when every second counts.
Something Chad at SOTAR told us is using the FA to hammer to bolt into battery makes disassembling it easier if it gets that bad. Not that you can't if the bolt isn't locked but makes it much easier.
Kyle Rittenhouse would be DEAD without his forward assist. He stated in one of his interviews that when he was laying on his back and Guage Grosskreutz was raising his pistol at him he looked down and saw that his bolt was slightly out of battery. He tapped the forward assist and pulled the trigger. There would've been no time to rack the charging handle, and no guarantee that it would've gone into battery if he had. He had a fraction of a second. Forward assist saved his life.
without the forward assist, he couldve just put his finger on the bolt and closed it by pushing it forward, it wouldnt have caused him any issues because in a universe where forward assist never existed, pushing on the bolt using the finger would be widely practiced.
Honestly I don't understand the whole controversy, like I can see arguments both ways for why you might and might not need it. But at the end of the day it seems like the same argument against having backup iron sights because modern optics are so reliable. I have the rail space, it adds next to no weight and cost, why wouldn't I have them just in case? Same thing here. It adds very little weight, cost, and complexity, if I don't need it I simply won't use it. Simple as. I have never once thought to myself, "Man this rifle would be so much better without a forward assist, it's really holding me back." It just sits there waiting for the rare circumstance I might need it and doesn't cause any issues so why do so many people need to act like it's a ticking time bomb. Learn when it's appropriate to use it and call it a day. Also I hate the whole argument of "Just push the bolt forward with your thumb." You either have a non existent extractor spring that you can push the bolt home if the cartridge isn't seated or you have some strong hands. I don't keep a round in the chamber and occasionally go out at night to keep coyotes away. I don't like messing up my rounds because I'm always chambering the one at the top of the mag so I ride the bolt home and give the FA a tap extending the life of my rounds, even when the rifle is spotless I can't force the bolt home with my thumb. And that's not to mention if your hand is covered in some sort of grime or bodily fluids or you know... THE BOLT IS HOT. And the entire gun community loves to echo, "Hurr durr rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it!" Right up until the forward assist gets brought up.
We have a short of the forward assist keeping an absolutely filthy AR in action and there are thousands of comments calling it a jam enhancer. My dudes it’s literally clearing the malfunctions before your very eyes how is it a jam enhancer.
Because out of shape casings getting jammed into the chamber is not good for anything. Just take your thumb and press the bolt forward, if it's just a little grit then that will seat it.
@@IVIaskerade ...Except it can't. Look at the angle of the cuts and then look at the shape of the plunger. The plunger will slip off of the serrations (as designed) if you are trying to force an out of spec round into battery. If the thing preventing your round from going into battery is weaker than the casing, like ice or dirt, then it will go into battery. It's kind of incredible how many people will say this BS about the AR's forward assist based on inrangeTV and then say literally nothing when he did the same frigging thing with the AK's charging handle, because reciprocating CHs can ALSO be used as a forward assist yet no one is out here saying that we should change those to non recip charging handles or something dumb like that.
Remember: it does not matter how well something works if people do not trust it. Even if it is completley redundant and frankly useless, the ability to make people feel safe is worth a lot. Does not just go with firearms, this applies to any system. Though, that also means people could think something is safe when it is actually horrifyingly dangerous. Why people stayed on the Titanic when it was sinking.
@@pixilatedmonster Either way, it is very weird and not actually part of the AR design. Thus not using the real world design. And they do have charging handles the same way as the IRL does. And it is very obvious they had reused animations instead of making custom from scratch. Due to time constraints. Which you do see some of them shared with different firearms. I do like the animation replacement to an extent. Because of they aren't consistent of what the original dev's intent. It is cool to see them showing off animations, but it gets very boring very quickly. I don't know why modders never had thought of that simple task.
I like having the "jam button" just for press checks when I'm shooting matches alone. Load it up, press check, punch that button once or twice and you know for a fact that gun is gonna go bang.
I for one have fired a million billion rounds underwater through my slick side during the Atlantean Hyperborean war, and most of it was in the frozen sand mud beaches of the southeastern Atlantis coast. Never once did a single round fail to chamber the whole time. 😤😤😤
The forward assist is also really important for when you are shooting suppressed, especially on an adjustable gas block when tuning the rifle. I've had issues with the round not being fully seated when experimenting with different gas settings trying to make it shoot softer and reduce blowback, so for reliability reasons I definitely want it.
I'll add something to think about. If you have a jam or even buffer system malfunction that prevents it from becoming fully seated in the chamber and have to break open the receiver to remedy the problem while having the BCG partially still in the buffer tube will definitely complicate the situation.
I have been in that situation and my FA got me "out of the jam" hehe (Round wouldnt fully seat.... bolt still in buffer tube...can't separate the upper from lower. Mashed the FA real good and it fixed it.
Finally someone that actually understands. I’ve been defending forward assists for years. Everyone saying it causes jam can gtfo of here. Rather have it and not need and than need it and not have it.
I did 8 years as a combat engineer in the army. I used the FA once at the range when the bcg didn't go fully into battery, and that very next shot, the case head got tore off and ejected while the rest of the casing got left behind in the chamber. It was a pain in the ass to clear and I haven't touched an FA since. There's nothing wrong with having it, I don't go out of my way to get a rifle without it, but I have yet to see a malfunction that can be fixed with the FA that simply racking the bolt couldn't also fix just as quickly.
Great review! The late Eugene Stoner told the U.S. Army that the forward assist is useless if the rifle is properly maintained.....The U.S. Army disagreed...since the U.S. Army wanted the M-14, not some "Plastic/Aluminum" rifle Springfield Armory could not manufacture....let alone a "Foreign" design not conceived in the U.S. such as the FN FAL....
Gun with non-reciprocating charging handles a FA is an absolute must. A famous rifle that doesn't have it (and should) is the HK series. Whether it's dirt, an unlucky smack to the charging handle, a sticky round, or just want to close the bolt very slowly and silently, you need a way to push it forward just in case.
Would love to see the reports where the users of the FAL wished it had a Forward Assist. Ive not heard that about that rifle before, that would be an interesting read.
@@Jeffro_1 Any gun with a reciprocating charging handle or slide can be used as a forward assist. Hell, I’ve done it a few times with pistols when cheap ammo in a dirty gun can sometimes get hung up and I tap the slide to chamber and continue firing.
I'm gonna teach you something. The army m1 garand bolt handle is a forward assist. The ak charging handle can be smacked on. The fn fal can be smacked on.
i know a airforce nam vet and from what he tells me you are correct most of the air force m16s were used for guarding and patrol which is combat like killing people trying to plant bombs or partisans
Recent photos of The U.S. Army’s new SIG XM7 SPEAR rifles in use has shown that they’ve omitted the forward assist. What do you make of that? I agree with your points in this video.
They omitted the FA because the XM7 is a .308 sized rifle with greater than .308 bolt velocity and a .308 carrier mass. The forward assist as designed for the AR-15 would break itself before it forced that sort of bolt into battery, which is a big reason why many AR-10s (including the original) also lack the feature. To me this argument is a non starter because it assumes that the use case for an FA is the same between 5.56 and .308 sized rifles. That is in fact the entire basis of the argument to begin with. Stoner assumed that the AR-15 worked the same as his AR-10, when it didn't, because the recoil forces (and thus return spring force) are drastically different. This is the actual reason why 5.56 rifles almost universally have a forward assist function, while larger caliber rifles almost universally don't.
@@WetWiIIy the "debate" around the forward assist is morbidly curious to me because both sides usually articulate their arguments using solely anecdotes and self referential arguments, especially from the "no forward assist" camp, despite their basis being Stoner himself as an engineer. Stoner never actually articulated why OTHER designs that had a forward assist function, such as the two successful autoloading designs previously used (the M1 garand and M1 Carbine), were bad for having it, because he couldn't. He only specified that HIS rifle should not have one, and it's because he was more concerned with getting the rifle actually made and issued immediately to replace the M14, not because there was actually some other greater reason to omit it. The tooling for slab side M16s was already being spooled up and producing forward assist versions would have delayed the rifle by some degree. What he did not anticipate was McNamara making it such a high priority that said rifles with forward assists (and closed tine flash hiders, and other improvements that Stoner never implemented on either the M16 or original AR-10, like fenced magazine catches) were plunked out within only 2 years. Stoner should be credited for laying down the basic design and many of its innovative features, but it is far to say that Stoner was infallible or unquestionable, as the rifle did need actual input from the field and constant improvement. The M4A1s and URGIs issued today incorporate many big and small changes made continuously since Stoner last touched the design, including shell deflectors, much deeper feed ramps, heavy barrel profiles, etc. Stoner was right, about a lot of things, but he was also WRONG about a number of things, which we take for granted.
The whole reason the forward assist is on milspec ppper receivers is because the military ain't going to have time to keep your rifle clean since you're rucking all day. Everyone cleans a gun after you get home from the rage or in the military. You have to keep pushing and you're going to be shooting a lot more then what someone will be showing up the range. Thereshigher possibility for dirt to get in and cause malfunction where the bolt does not go all the way forward. This was quite common in Vietnam for the M16 did not have it so they came out with the xm16e1 and the m16a1. they to replace the three prong flashhider with a bird cage because it was getting caught in shit. Its not as big of issue as if he was back then because the manufacturing process has gotten better and just the rifle has evolved so much over the years. it's better to have it and not me than the need and not have it
I always thought they were for an open battery or a skunk keeps it from being closed but also for being quiet. A whole platoon of Marines slapping their charging handles back to charge their guns is pretty loud in the jungle.
Very good video! I am thoroughly impressed by your explanation. Instantly subscribed. Plenty of great reasons out there for its usage, hence why it is still on almost all ARs today and even HK416s.
Have an AR chambered in 5.45x39 (it was super super cheap at the time). Due to the very pointy taper of the bullet, the tip will bind up on the feed ramp and jam if the bolt isn't released from all the way rearward and full velocity. A simple tap of the forward assist drives the cartridge into battery every single time.
nonono you don't understand, you're supposed to rack the gun every time your round doesn't go into battery. in case the cartridge is magically cursed or something.
as a combat vet, I have had to use the forward assist multiple different times for multiple different legit reasons. i never used it way we were "trained" to use it. I have only ever bought a single AR15 without a forward assist, and that was because that one was built for a very specific purpose. I will never not have a forward assist due to my experiences. I rarely ever use it at all, but when I need it, I NEED it.
one time, I got enough fine sand in the action that created enough friction the bolt could eight eject a spent round, nor drive a new round home by itself. I had to use the rifle like a bolt action, manually ejecting every round and sending home the bolt to fire the next round. Later, I popped the rear takedown pin and pulled the bolt, and ran my hand once over the bolt assembly and then ran my fingers once through teh upper receiver area to remove any sand. Then reassembled and my rifle was back to functioning 100% normally. Took 15sec to restore function, but in the moment I had to shoot as fast as I could, and didn't have time to try to troubleshoot, not knowing it would only take 15sec to clear. EXACTLY as described at 12:23-12:27 is what I am talking about.
other times, during assembly, I forget to insert the buffer and spring, and then function check the rifle without the spring. I've also seen tons of guys do this as well. And sometimes the ONLY way to get that bolt back out of the buffer tube is to use the forward assist to walk it forward. that is the fastest and easiest method of rectifying this issue as well.
I've had rounds get hung up coming out of a mag (mag issue, or the position the round was in inside the mag) slow the bolt too much and fail to fully seat the bolt in the chamber, and a simple tap can drive the bolt home that last 1mm. Literally nothing wrong with the round nor the gun, but it failed to seat fully, and there is NO issues with seating it with the assist.
I like how Eugene Stoner describes the forward assist as being a complete waste of time, yet it's still one of the most well thought out pieces of design on a rifle with already a lot of very well thought out design. Tells you something about the whole product.
I have had many malfunctions where I get a round jammed in the chamber, and then I end up getting a double feed, whereas if I had just fired it, I usually would be able to get it out. I found that out after I started having a gun that was dirty enough that I wasn't getting loads from mags to fully chamber, and sometimes if I tried to pull the charging handle, I'd get a double feed and then be fucked, and so then I just started using the forward assist after it happened to me a few times and then it has worked every time. Not saying that I had that many of these failures, they were rare, but now the consequences of it are even more rare and less time intensive. Just giving the assist a lil tap versus having a completely locked gun that requires me to lock back the bolt and take out the mag to clear
Easier to push forward, yes, but it would prevent the gun from cycling, as it hammers into the dust cover. That scallop's only purpose in existing is in opening the dust cover, period.
One edge case, (pun intended) where it could maybe be a jam enhancer, is if you have an over length round, you use the FA to chamber it, and then you eject that round manually, you could pull the bullet, and then dump powder all in your FCG. Unlikely, and probably administrative, but still...
Couple of points (and I am *not* part of the "The forward assist will het you kilt in da streetz!" crowd): 1. You talk about clearing a malfunction (if you dont have a forward assist) by just mindlessly slingshotting the action until it works. Yeah, that's something the Army figured out 50 or so years ago. Which is why the SOP immediate action drill (which isn't the *best* , mind you, but the reasons why it isn't involve problems the forward assist won't help with either, like double feeds) of SPORTS has the "O" - *Observe* . See, if you jack the bolt back and nothing comes *out* of the gun, yoire supposed to lock rhe bilt back and figure out why the extractor didn't get the round out - odds are (particularly if dealing with well ised Armybissue magazines that, frankly, should have been thrown away a couple of years ago but the Army is too cheap to treat magazines as expendable wear items) you have a double feed. Which neither slingshottinf the bolt nor using the forawrd assist will help with - if either does anything, it just makes the problem worse. Hmmm... maybe doing an inmesiate action drill *correctly* instead of doing a Cargo Cult coaplay is a better course of action, no? 2. Your faith in the quality control on "modern ammunition manufacturing", at least withbregard to military issue ammo (you know, rhe stuff used by the folks who are rhe ones most lilely to be using their rifles in cases where - according to you - the forward assist is most likely to be necessary) is amusing. Getting new manufacture USGI ammo, that has been in a metal can from the day it was manufactured until it was issued to you, that is *physically bent* or otherwise mangled is hardly "get hit by lightning 5 times". Nor is it generally a "lot" problem (frankly, it wouod be better if it was - that many problem rounds in a single lot *would* get flagged and the whole lot pulled) - but one round out of an entire bandolier is a problem, too, if *you're* the guy who got issued *that* bandolier. Maybe QC for purely civilian market US made 5.56mm ammo is that good, but getting mutant rounds is common enough that you can expext to find multiple such rounds discarded at the bottoms of each and every one of the "fighting position" holes on an Army range after running a qual course for a company. And each soldier is only firing 40 rounds... 3. In actual service, as an infantry NCO (including being a Drill Sergeant at Benning), I saw a Hell of a lot more rifles malfunction from worn out magazines causing double feeds (FA won't help, and it *can* only make it worse), rounds well dimesnionally out of spec (rarely will a round top too bent up to feed with the normal bolt function from firing or closing from a locked bolt, actually go home with a FA... but Ibhave also seen a rifle bound up so badly as to have to be mortsred after someone tried to Hulk Smash the Quasimodo Cartridge home), or foreign objects like sand and mud *inside the chamber or bolt face* (and, again, FA just jams it tighter - BTDT). Where I *have* seen FA work well are cases where you have cycled the bolt *manually* and you either short stroked it, rode the bokt down at least part way, or there was fouling between the charging handle and the upper (which adds way more drag to the bolt than most people consider). Press checking is one of those situations where you definately need a way to push the bolt home because you're WAY short stroking it on purpose so it doesnt eject a chambered round... although, if you are running the charging handle, the bolt is probably cold - otherwise you're either loading from a locked back bolt, the last round hold open didn't work (uncommon), or you're in the middle of immediate action (which is why the T is there in SPORTS - Tap the FA). But the biggest use case for manually chargung the weapon is either loading a gun *before* any firing has occured, or doing a press check (which is rarely done in the middle of a firing situation) - both of which generally mean the bolt is cold. Summary: the forawrd assist is *overall* a good idea, however, to use it *properly* requires the same amount of training (albeit slightly different training) as teaching troops to use a "slickside" rifle that doesn't have a forward assist (like almost everybl single non-reciprocating charging handle ridle ever issues - the Israeli FAL and the utterly failed G41 were about the only major exceptions I can think of of nonreciprocaring chargung handle rifles that did have a FA type system installed. All the G3s, all the FALs aside from the Israeli pattern ones, all the G33s, etc.
During a double feed, running the charging handle ALSO won't help. You have to diagnose the malfunction correctly and do the appropriate action. Running the charging handle on a double feed WITHOUT dropping the magazine, as in an "immediate action" drill, will ALWAYS make it worse by introducing a third round or causing a bolt override. I don't know how FA use will make a double feed worse because there is no leverage to actually force the cartridge any further than it already is. Pulling the bolt back gives the misfed round space to shift around to cause either a bolt override and/or allow a third round to feed. In EITHER school of thought (FA or not), the focus should be on observing the problem (and often, removing the source of ammunition) before doing anything. To me, immediate action is the cause of most of the problems, because it does not teach the enduser how to actually diagnose the problem or how the weapon works, only a rote memorization of a procedure that works MOST of the time. If you are experiencing a bolt override but are following SPORTS, you WILL fuck it up by causing a double/triple feed, because per SPORTS, you are pulling and holding the CH back to observe the ejection port rather than first removing the magazine. This has absolutely nothing to do with the forward assist and everything to do with bad doctrine that hasn't been materially updated since the 60s. This goes even further to "my soldiers had bad lots of ammunition", because part of the loading process should be inspecting the rounds before you put them in the magazine. It only takes a second or two (just like observing the weapon status through the ejection port before taking remedial action) but isn't trained, because for some reason we think that it's easier to have to pull dud or out of spec rounds out of our weapons on the firing line or in combat rather than when we're at the ammo pallet mindlessly shoving stripper clips into our mags outside of live fire. Most of the time when people bring up the lack of forward assists, it's almost always .308 platforms. That's not an accident, .308 platforms have much stouter springs and much heavier/larger carriers that can force themselves into battery in a variety of situations. But consider how many INTERMEDIATE caliber platforms do NOT have a forward assist or the ability to do so. Of the extant designs, only one major design that uses a similar rotating bolt lacks it. The tavor series. This is because the gun is designed to be as sealed as possible with heavy overgas and a large carrier to try to keep it operational. The HK33 you mentioned, as well as the FAMAS, use delayed blowback designs where the bolt thrust is high enough to try to force it into battery in adverse conditions. All others, from the HK433 to the AUG to the G36 and SCAR (even the non reciprocating CH ones) have a forward assist function, and it is not because they were copying the M16 design by rote. In intermediate caliber designs, failure to go into battery is a real concern due to the combination of relatively light recoiling round and consequentially relatively light recoil systems, and a high force to overcome bolt locking mechanism.
So your response to the point that the FA is a minor but capable part of ensuring your rifle is properly chambered is to bring up failures that it won't help and ammo being of poor quality? It's almost like the FA IS TO ASSIST THE BOLT FORWARD. not ram shit into battery like a sledgehammer. It's not MADE to fix those failures that require a full set of diagnostic actions. That's why we have SPORTS and shit like that. Your argument is exactly like saying "Well a screwdriver can't fix a piston failure!". No shit. It's not designed to. Why do people confuse this? I don't get it.
I have never once, including in my over 20 years of military service, needed to use the forward assist. However, your argument is persuasive. My next AR just might have a forward assist on it.
The FA has helped me turn my rifle from and elegant paper weight to a proper metal thrower before. I will always have on eon my AR. There was no other way out of my jam.
I think anti forward assist comes from the min-max society I’m going to minimize the weight of the rifle so I can maximize my enablers. Also my 2 🥺covert cqb 🥺 guns don’t have forward assists and since they’re suppressed I need to make sure I keep up the maintenance schedule like my duty proven jammy staccato that needs broke down and cleaned every 500 rounds. Only 1k through the stac might loosen up, but we’ll see.
All I knew about the forward-assist is that God put it there to save Kyle Rittenhouse Thank you for clarifying that its there for more reasons than Fudd memes could elucidate
I had some failures to extract some cheap, shitty ammo my first time shooting the AR I built from a kit (got an Aero Precision lower receiver at a local gun store for a good price). The only way to get it out was to drop the mag, use the forward assist to grab the case, and pull the charging handle. So even in easy range conditions, it can still be useful.
Hey Ivan its not related to the video but I wanted to know have you ever looked into making brass cartridges from scratch? I was wondering if it could be done at home I know there's printed ammo but I think DIY brass ammo is worth pursuing
People have looked at this, it's really hard but probably doable, deep drawing brass isn't the absolute hardest thing ever but building the dies would be less than simple and likely really need to be carbide to be effective.
@@flavortown3781 I think done in multipul stages a 30 ton bottle jack might have the pressure needed and the dies could be made from HSS tool blanks. though I agree carbide is better.
Fixed charging handles can be used in the same way as a forward assist, yet no ones calling them Jam Handles. Personally that beats any criticism people can throw at the forward assist.
I forgot Alaska exists lol, knowing cold humid environments especially when it has a gradient of temperatures through out the day guns do get ice on the inside without users doing anything. Granted that is prevented with good lubrication but that wears off pretty quickly. That might be enough justification on it's own. But I will say the forward assist even in field use doesn't get that much use. As you stated if it got grimy enough to get hung up before battery there's a solid chance a small rock or sand is blocking the bolt or stuck in the star chamber and pressing the forward assist wouldn't do anything. Or just alot of sand is in the way that it's interfering with the bolt's ability to rotate or seat in the chamber which also happens alot. On other cases if your chamber is so dirty that using the forward assist is the solution and it works, not always but say 35% ish of the time you might get a failure to extract. Generally though the above said issues are solved by using the dust cover and having the bolt open as little as possible when you are playing in the mud/sand. It doesn't make the forward assist useless, it's just one of the last resorts on the remediation process before disassembly.
The simplest answer you can give to people who quote stoner on him saying “if the round doesn’t want to go in then it shouldn’t be there” is that literally every firearm until that point was slamming the round into the chamber manually, disregarding if it wanted to go in there at all. Bolt guns, pump actions, and m1 models (Garand and carbine *with some exceptions*) are all sending rounds into the chamber with straight muscle. Modern firearms with encased bolts (AR platform and FAL as mentioned) do it with springs. Springs are not as strong as muscle. Sometimes rounds don’t feed when they are supposed to, and sometimes you need to put it in there with muslce
Auto-loaders had been around since the late 19th century when smokeless powder first made them feasible. The US military had been using them since WWI (M1917 water-cooled machine gun, M1918 Browning Automatic Rifle, Lewis machine gun, Chauchat machine gun, M1911 pistol, etc). More directly relevant, the AR bolt and carrier took heavy inspiration from the M1941 Johnson rifle that saw limited US use in WWII. What point are you trying to make?
@@Nat_556 I think he's referring to the fact that you said that M1 rifles and carbines "...are all sending rounds into the chamber with straight muscle," categorizing them with manual repeaters, which they are not.
@@AtlasJotun quote “*with some exceptions*” A lot of work garands will have you slap the bolt forward, and regular grime on both will have you push the bolt to make sure it’s fully closed
@@Nat_556 An 80 year old, clapped out Garand doesn't become a manual repeater akin to a pump shotgun just because the bolt sticks. Nor is it "straight muscle" pushing a cartridge into battery, it's the recoil spring doing that. All you're doing is getting the bolt moving. You can also just pull the charging handle back (called a slingshot) on most of them; tapping them forward isn't always necessary even on the jankier guns. It's still a self-loading rifle and what you said is inaccurate. If it were a manual repeater, there would be no such thing as "Garand Thumb," because that happens solely due to spring tension closing the bolt on your thumb.
I've used mine a couple times, it's a nice to have when your gun is running dry and you know it's most likely not an ammo issue. though a spray of CLP would usually fix any OOB issues you were having :)
One thing that AR-15 redditors will always ignore is that the final version of the AR-10 made by AI had a forward assist. Eugene Stoner's statement about no country that tested and used his design asked for a forward assist was just wrong.
The final version of the AR-10 AI made was adopted by Portugal in 1960. The forward assist it had was incorporated into the charging handle, you pushed down the charging handle and it locked into the carrier key and could be pushed forward.
@@roflchopter11 yeah you take your right hand, pull the charging handle back, pull out a new mag with your left and drop the empty, load the new mag and then release the charging handle. it's the most efficient way to reload since you don't need to charge it afterwards
@@coolbugfacts1234you don’t ever need to charge an AR on a reload. Either the mag is completely empty and the bolt locks back (and can then be released with the bolt release button), or the mag was not completely empty and no bolt manipulation is required. Stick with cod little bro lol
@@andreahighsides7756 ok then why do you have to charge an AR every time in counter strike? video games are extremely accurate in their depiction of assault rifle 15 🙄🙄🙄
I think only non-veterans say it's useless. Worn out boot camp A2s needed the forward assist almost every initial charge.
Maybe a slight exaggeration, but yes, it is useful on very worn out rifles.
I used it twice to get the rifle in battery on a clapped out m16a4
10 years in the U.S. Army during the GWOT. Never needed the Forward assist outside of firing blanks or when I had a tight magazine that didn't let go of the first round. If your M16 is beat to shit then have supply send it to the shop for repair.
@@Cube210 keywords there, "US ARMY". My keywords were " Worn out boot camp A2s" If you pull a used recoil spring out of a rifle and compare it to new, it's quite a bit longer. I think that's the issue.
I can't believe you made a 20 minute video and you dont even know that, that button is the sniper button and it enhances accuracy.
after 10 pumps ball ammo will become armor piercing
😂😂😂
Pew pew
yup.
If they deleted the bullet button, we could get the weight of the rifle down to 9.5 boxes.
Bro is monetized?!! I love this family friendly airsoft history channel!
Airsoft is nifty!
Hell yea! I got a frosted flakes ad next time im at the store ill buy 2 boxes of frosted flakes.
As someone who has actually used the the FA for its intended purpose, I find this whole discussion mind-boggling. If you've ever shot a shitty m16 that your granddad could've fought with, then you have no reason to hate this thing, even if you never needed it.
I have an AR-15 built to reassemble a M16A2, and I have used the forward assist a couple times. Granted I live in California so that might have done something
No you're wrong. Stoner's design is infallible and you would never need to have FA on it. You're just a stupid rube that would make the malfunction worse. Now buy this $2000 rifle with a plastic lower and a faxon barrel
I served with a 20yr old M16, I cleaned and lubed it correctly, shot nearly 8k rounds through that rifle and never needed the FA once, nor have I ever witnessed it
The more people I hear on the internet talk about how often they've used the FA for its intended purpose, the more convinced I become it's a shitty rifle. All the other AKs, and FNs, M1s, MP5s, and even M4s and M92s and Glocks... billions upon billions of rounds collectively... no forward assists. But, for some reason, the AR *requires* a forward assist in order to function on the battlefield. I have no doubt it served a function at one point in time, hand crank starters and rabbit ears on TVs served a function at one point in time too.
@adamlucas4753 You're somehow forgetting the forward assist supplants the fact you can't push the bolt forward directly. Basically all the guns you listed you can push on the charging handle or slide to achieve the exact same thing that a forward asisst does lmao this is clearly dorky anti AR cope but you forgot how guns work
>conceptualizes alt-hist AR-15
>describes the NCR Service Rifle
thanks m8
is this the evil hacker that the news warned me about??? in all seriousness, the FA hate seems to be borne out of a weird corner of min-maxy video-gamey stats obsessed people more than anything and also a weird cult around stoner and the idea is that he's infallible. closely related to govt profile hate and A2 sights hate imo
Here to spread anti-Stoner propaganda!
@@IvanPrintsGuns i'm glad someone says it! the man was not infallible
@@IvanPrintsGuns 'weed bad'
@PaxNovAm1776 same reason i like ur mom😏
REALLY!? RIGHT IN FRONT OF MY WWSDs!?
Anecdotal, but I was in a class once in the back of the line during a drill. I noticed my bolt wasn’t in battery. I pressed the forward assist, the gun went into battery and ran fine. I’d rather have it and not need it than not have it and need it.
Had similar happen for various reasons including in the last few years some out of spec rims. It there for a reason. Can you live without it? Yes. Is it better to have it? Yes.
I say the same about BAD lever
You will inevitably eventually catch the charging handle on your gear and unlock the bolt. It's nice to smack the forward assit and not rack the rifle and dump a round
@@hardcase-69 I hadn't even thought of that, but I'm pretty sure I had that happen once while patrolling a ranch for coyotes a couple years ago.
Same thing. As a marksmanship coach, I've seen too many malfunctions caused by _chamber checks_ without using the forward assist afterward.
I haven’t used it a lot, but when I did it was convenient to have. During basic it was -10 to like -20 F and a lot of our bolts would freeze, or just slow down from the clp we were using. If you fired quick it wasn’t as big a deal, but in between strings of fire you’d have malfunctions. No amount of sling shotting would bring a round fully into the chamber.
But yeah it’s useful when a rifle gets to dirty. I’ve had an ar I was testing lightweight parts on, go down in less than 100 rounds when using a suppressor. The answer would be to just clean it, but sometimes you don’t have that option.
Anyways, thanks for the content!
And people that say it’s not needed really don’t know what their talking about.
You know what is more useful? A drop of oil onto the bcg through the ejection port. It failed in basic because the military runs the rifles dry.
@@MrBioniclefan1 If the gun is properly oiled, it is not needed.
"Especially if your rifle is all wet slimy and oily." Was it at a P Diddy party?
Yes
Freak out
Can't stop, won't stop 💦💦💦
This is my rifle / this is my gun / this one’s for fighting / this one’s for fun!
I still find it funny that people take offense at the forward assist, as if a little surprise tool that can help us in a pinch is an assault on the heavens or something
A video about the sniper button! 🎯
I forgot about that😂 GWOT lore
I seriously wonder how the actual hell anyone who has used an AR-15 hasn't at least once rode the charging handle a little bit and not gotten the extractor over the case rim and then realized why the forward assist exists.
@thinkharder9332 exactly Everytime I hear that I think of how absurd it is that you just had a fuck up, it didn't positively go in all the way your rifle just fucked up sorry because the AR sucks, but dealing with it by forcing the unique AR bolt in harder is like the opposite of the solution any riflemen would turn to
Couldn’t you just drop the mag and re rack the charging handle with full force?
@@jakeevans8819 Yes you can. Just don’t forget to drop the mag or you will double feed and then you’ve got a real nasty jam. The forward assist just takes less steps and is slightly more idiot proof in my opinion. 100% necessary? Of course not. Just a nice thing to have.
@@thinkharder9332I don’t rid the handle, simple as.
It's shockingly easy to like, not do that
When I was a door gunner on the space shuttle the liquid propellant in those rounds would swell depending on if you were on the sunlight side or the dark side.
It was always needed there
😁😁
Back when I was in the coast guard armored infantry, the salt water would wreak havoc on our rifles. I appreciated having the forward assist.
Very forward assisted thinking, planning for space force deployment.
@@Sophistry0001Im currently 25 about to try to enlist for Coast Guard, any tips? Is it hard to get in?
@@datgio4951 I think he's joking, google says the coast guard doesn't have armored infantry (and why would they?)
Some old guy told me that they could use the "AK rounds" in their M14s... He must've used the forward assist A LOT😂
I’ve used it in the Marines.
I have AR’s with it personally, and I also have 2 that’s don’t have a forward assist.
I much rather push the button than pull the charging handle again.
When you shoot XXX amount of rounds without cleaning and it’s old it will eventually not seat the bolt properly.
It doesn’t weigh anything. It’s just there. I don’t even think it’s there until I can push it that one time when the bolt isn’t seated.
I ran slickside in competition and this is one of the best explanations of the FA's existence.
Would you run slick side again
Keep in mind Eugene Stoner also designed the A1 rear sight the way he did because he was worried about soldiers fucking up their zero by treating the windage and elevation adjustments as fidget toys. Still a great designer but as you said he was wrong about a lot of stuff.
First AR was a birthday present to myself and a slick side AR. Took it out in 20°F snowy MN. A good time was not had. Being a lefty I discovered that you can tell a 5.56 from a .223 by how much the case burns you when it goes down a hoody. Between strings of shots snow blew into the action and froze the action. I immediately ordered a stripped upper with a deflector, ejection port cover, and forward assist along with the parts and tools for a better upper.
Smith And Wesson M&P Sport I?
There’s no difference between the two cartridges that makes one “burn” more, lol
.223 Rem and 5,56×45 mm are the same thing.
@@Tunkkis They Most Certainly Are Not.
@@lastdayonearth8381 they are, lol
The Cult of Stoner really pisses me off sometimes. "Stoner said the forward-assist was dumb, He's OBVIOUSLY RIGHT! I mean, if you have a feeding or jamming issue in a firefight, you should absolutely field strip and wipe out the dirt. The FA could break a $150 part of a $5,000 weapons system. However, that troop it took up $2.4 mil just to get through basic is absolutely expendable, in comparison."
They should dremel off the shell deflector and mag catch fencing too, but no one talks about that lol
@@DD-hz3ts A troll after my own heart.
Finally someone gets it.
If a bolt requires a device to help it travel rearward, why would you deliberately withold any means to also help it travel forward?
They would say the spring does that. Smack smack more powerful than wimpy boing.
Over the summer I ran a M4 through about 700 blanks without cleaning it. I utilized full auto for about 500 of those. Blanks are notoriously unreliable if there BFA (blank firing adapter) is not used correctly. There also known for running dirty. Although my BFA was used correctly, my M4 dried out about a week into this FTX. No CLP in sight. I used the forward assist for the first time, and multiple times during that FTX.
I utilized it, but that’s just my experience.
The M4 is another animal because of the feed ramps. I loved my M4 because for the first time, I wasn't having to use the forward assist all the time. With the A2, it was a constant battle, and this is across a number of issued weapons. Those things just didn't like to go into battery.
What did we learn? Rifle that is properly lubed = no reason for the Forward assist = you keep a small bottle of lube on you just for this occasion.
"quick video"
20 minutes.
Never change.
In the Army back in the 90's we were taught to do the S.P.O.R.T.S drill. It stood for Slap, Pull (charging handle holding it back), Observe (the problem round ejecting), Release (charging handle), Tap (forward assist), and shoot. But in practice, tapping the forward release wasn't the first thing we did. This takes into account something like a bad primer for which no amount of tapping will help you. I still operate my civilian AR-15 the same way using SPORTS.
along with your wendigoon rebuttal, one of my other favorite videos on the AR-15 is JaredAF's video on the M16A2 and why it is the way it is.
i hate that kid he's so annoying
The forward assist is vindicated. The west is healing
An argument that always came up from Sullivan or Stoner is that the M16s only had problems that a forward assist could rectify because the Army issued ammo that the gun wasn't originally designed for. Okay, fair enough. But in reality, this is a strong argument FOR the forward assist! We know the military doesn't care, is full of tightwads, and it is not surprising (in fact, expected) that they would pull some crap like that! Why wouldn't you want your piece of equipment, which you designed to save soldier's lives in combat, to be resilient against this kind of BS they have no control over? An 18 YO infantryman doesn't care about the couple of ounces saved by not adding a forward assist, they just want their boomstick to go boom when they need it to so they can go home to their families.
I've personally had my ar freeze before, after one round the bolt wouldn't seat all the way forward. After 2 good smacks of the forward assist, I got it to shoot the entire magazine. All my go-to guns have some way to force the bolt home.
I've had multiple times where I've had to operate particularly dirty ARs with no forward assist and it often results in fucking around with them for a couple minutes until you actually get it fully chambered and every time it's happened I've said out loud "SURE WISH I HAD A BUTTON I COULD PUSH TO SOLVE THIS"
Even if the sig spear replaced the primary weapon platform (which it won't) it's still just an AR-10 with no buffer, beefier lugs and breach, and a short stroke gas piston instead of a tube.
It does have that hotboy caliber that shoots slightly flatter than .308 out of a shorter barrel.
Personally though I think the entire program isn't worth all the taxpayer dollars spent on it. The polymer cased ammo technology that was developed in the program is nice, but there were already companies working on that in the private sector beforehand.
it's more like a big ar-18
We could have had the smuzzle
But also it wont replace the M4 as the standard infantry rifle. Just to be clear.
@@teabullsWhich ironically would make it an AR-16, since the AR-18 was a miniaturized .223 version of that the same way the AR-15 was a miniaturized AR-10.
I have a bit of a long winded reply to "why would you need to close the bolt quietly?" and it pertains to my experience in a Patrol Base in the middle of the woods in NC during my training as a rifleman in the USMC.
Prior to stepping off on an ambush patrol, we had been staged and set in a defense in condition 3 (magazine inserted, bolt forward no round in chamber) with our service rifles, which were m4's at the time.
Our combat instructors had informed us that an "enemy" (other marines playing Opfor) had heard us racking our charging handles and chambering a round before stepping out of the PB and thus had compromised our LPOP (listening post observation post, basically a forward position dedicated to literally listening and observing for enemy movement with the order to only engage in the event that your personal life is in danger.)
After hearing of this, our combat instructors had us insert the magazine and ride the charging handle all the way back and then tap the forward assist until the bolt was seated, basically making it silent in action. This made us chambering the condo one round silent to the enemy.
the ambush patrol was successful and although the enemy eventually did compromise our PB, it did delay their activity by about 48 hours
My assumption has always been that people used the charging handles of past designs as basically a forward assist, and now the AR lacked something like that, so better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.
I’ve don’t have an AR yet, and was on the fence about the forward assist, even going as far as searching for an upper without one. The thing that won me over in favor of the FA is the in the dark scenario. It’s peace of mind in an instance when every second counts.
Something Chad at SOTAR told us is using the FA to hammer to bolt into battery makes disassembling it easier if it gets that bad. Not that you can't if the bolt isn't locked but makes it much easier.
Kyle Rittenhouse would be DEAD without his forward assist. He stated in one of his interviews that when he was laying on his back and Guage Grosskreutz was raising his pistol at him he looked down and saw that his bolt was slightly out of battery. He tapped the forward assist and pulled the trigger. There would've been no time to rack the charging handle, and no guarantee that it would've gone into battery if he had. He had a fraction of a second. Forward assist saved his life.
@@adamscottmartin Bro What? As If.
@@adamscottmartin Even if that were true, it's an instance where the FA was useful to the user.
@@lastdayonearth8381 eh. Rittenhouse let it all go to his head. Turned into a bit of a shithead sadly.
without the forward assist, he couldve just put his finger on the bolt and closed it by pushing it forward, it wouldnt have caused him any issues because in a universe where forward assist never existed, pushing on the bolt using the finger would be widely practiced.
@FalbereChan And When It's Hot? Solution?
Honestly I don't understand the whole controversy, like I can see arguments both ways for why you might and might not need it. But at the end of the day it seems like the same argument against having backup iron sights because modern optics are so reliable. I have the rail space, it adds next to no weight and cost, why wouldn't I have them just in case? Same thing here. It adds very little weight, cost, and complexity, if I don't need it I simply won't use it. Simple as. I have never once thought to myself, "Man this rifle would be so much better without a forward assist, it's really holding me back." It just sits there waiting for the rare circumstance I might need it and doesn't cause any issues so why do so many people need to act like it's a ticking time bomb. Learn when it's appropriate to use it and call it a day.
Also I hate the whole argument of "Just push the bolt forward with your thumb." You either have a non existent extractor spring that you can push the bolt home if the cartridge isn't seated or you have some strong hands. I don't keep a round in the chamber and occasionally go out at night to keep coyotes away. I don't like messing up my rounds because I'm always chambering the one at the top of the mag so I ride the bolt home and give the FA a tap extending the life of my rounds, even when the rifle is spotless I can't force the bolt home with my thumb. And that's not to mention if your hand is covered in some sort of grime or bodily fluids or you know... THE BOLT IS HOT.
And the entire gun community loves to echo, "Hurr durr rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it!" Right up until the forward assist gets brought up.
We have a short of the forward assist keeping an absolutely filthy AR in action and there are thousands of comments calling it a jam enhancer. My dudes it’s literally clearing the malfunctions before your very eyes how is it a jam enhancer.
Because if you use it wrong it jams the rifle.
sounds like a way to cause a catastrophic malfunction
Because out of shape casings getting jammed into the chamber is not good for anything. Just take your thumb and press the bolt forward, if it's just a little grit then that will seat it.
@@IVIaskerade ...Except it can't. Look at the angle of the cuts and then look at the shape of the plunger. The plunger will slip off of the serrations (as designed) if you are trying to force an out of spec round into battery. If the thing preventing your round from going into battery is weaker than the casing, like ice or dirt, then it will go into battery.
It's kind of incredible how many people will say this BS about the AR's forward assist based on inrangeTV and then say literally nothing when he did the same frigging thing with the AK's charging handle, because reciprocating CHs can ALSO be used as a forward assist yet no one is out here saying that we should change those to non recip charging handles or something dumb like that.
@@DD-hz3ts You are very butthurt about a joke, friend
Remember: it does not matter how well something works if people do not trust it. Even if it is completley redundant and frankly useless, the ability to make people feel safe is worth a lot. Does not just go with firearms, this applies to any system.
Though, that also means people could think something is safe when it is actually horrifyingly dangerous. Why people stayed on the Titanic when it was sinking.
fudds will rag on the forward assist and then go on to buy rapture kits because it makes them feel safer
In Fallout New Vegas both “assault carbine” and “marksman carbine” used forward assist as a way to cock the rifle.
Cant do that in real life other then pushing bolt forwards
Counterstrike too
No the player used a very small charging handle on the bolt
@@horseman2777counterstrike was so funny because it would stretch so far
@@pixilatedmonster Either way, it is very weird and not actually part of the AR design. Thus not using the real world design. And they do have charging handles the same way as the IRL does.
And it is very obvious they had reused animations instead of making custom from scratch. Due to time constraints. Which you do see some of them shared with different firearms.
I do like the animation replacement to an extent. Because of they aren't consistent of what the original dev's intent. It is cool to see them showing off animations, but it gets very boring very quickly. I don't know why modders never had thought of that simple task.
I like having the "jam button" just for press checks when I'm shooting matches alone. Load it up, press check, punch that button once or twice and you know for a fact that gun is gonna go bang.
Yeah that's how I use it too, tis' most wise.
Dirty bolts in action need a forward assist when there isn’t time to breakdown and clean.
Also I’ve noticed that a brand new bolt (
Vortex 3x prism optic is underrated
It’s what I run
I for one have fired a million billion rounds underwater through my slick side during the Atlantean Hyperborean war, and most of it was in the frozen sand mud beaches of the southeastern Atlantis coast. Never once did a single round fail to chamber the whole time. 😤😤😤
The impression and mannerisms are so good I had to check who’s video I clicked👍😂
His mom had to have been gun jesus's college one night stand
The forward assist is also really important for when you are shooting suppressed, especially on an adjustable gas block when tuning the rifle. I've had issues with the round not being fully seated when experimenting with different gas settings trying to make it shoot softer and reduce blowback, so for reliability reasons I definitely want it.
I'll add something to think about. If you have a jam or even buffer system malfunction that prevents it from becoming fully seated in the chamber and have to break open the receiver to remedy the problem while having the BCG partially still in the buffer tube will definitely complicate the situation.
I have been in that situation and my FA got me "out of the jam" hehe
(Round wouldnt fully seat.... bolt still in buffer tube...can't separate the upper from lower. Mashed the FA real good and it fixed it.
Wish you did more content like this I love watching you on your podcast with fudd busters
Finally someone that actually understands. I’ve been defending forward assists for years. Everyone saying it causes jam can gtfo of here. Rather have it and not need and than need it and not have it.
I did 8 years as a combat engineer in the army. I used the FA once at the range when the bcg didn't go fully into battery, and that very next shot, the case head got tore off and ejected while the rest of the casing got left behind in the chamber. It was a pain in the ass to clear and I haven't touched an FA since.
There's nothing wrong with having it, I don't go out of my way to get a rifle without it, but I have yet to see a malfunction that can be fixed with the FA that simply racking the bolt couldn't also fix just as quickly.
@@gsrawson that’s bad ammo not the FA’s fault. There is no way the FA can cause a case head separation.
@@poptart4YALL, no - but it can cause a bad round to chamber.
@@poptart4YALL can’t imagine not needing the sniper button.
This video has changed my mind on the forward assist, nice info and well presented
Great review! The late Eugene Stoner told the U.S. Army that the forward assist is useless if the rifle is properly maintained.....The U.S. Army disagreed...since the U.S. Army wanted the M-14, not some "Plastic/Aluminum" rifle Springfield Armory could not manufacture....let alone a "Foreign" design not conceived in the U.S. such as the FN FAL....
Gun with non-reciprocating charging handles a FA is an absolute must. A famous rifle that doesn't have it (and should) is the HK series.
Whether it's dirt, an unlucky smack to the charging handle, a sticky round, or just want to close the bolt very slowly and silently, you need a way to push it forward just in case.
The HK G41? (The second roller-delayed for 5.56, and is their last design to use said system)
Would love to see the reports where the users of the FAL wished it had a Forward Assist. Ive not heard that about that rifle before, that would be an interesting read.
I read about it in regards to israeli dissatisfaction with the fal, their models had a forward assist.
@@armani_5.565And the Israelis still eventually dumped the FAL in favor of their locally produced AK inspired design, the Galil.
@@gameragodzillawhich if you think about it has a forward assist. You can just smack the charging handle forward if it doesn’t go into battery
@@Jeffro_1 Any gun with a reciprocating charging handle or slide can be used as a forward assist. Hell, I’ve done it a few times with pistols when cheap ammo in a dirty gun can sometimes get hung up and I tap the slide to chamber and continue firing.
I'm gonna teach you something. The army m1 garand bolt handle is a forward assist. The ak charging handle can be smacked on. The fn fal can be smacked on.
i know a airforce nam vet and from what he tells me you are correct most of the air force m16s were used for guarding and patrol which is combat like killing people trying to plant bombs or partisans
The very early adopters were MPs guarding airfields I believe yes.
@@robertgaudet7407 sounds like it from what i hear
Recent photos of The U.S. Army’s new SIG XM7 SPEAR rifles in use has shown that they’ve omitted the forward assist. What do you make of that? I agree with your points in this video.
They realized that it’s pointless
@@BaconSlayer69Okay but it's not hurting anything so why not have it around.
They omitted the FA because the XM7 is a .308 sized rifle with greater than .308 bolt velocity and a .308 carrier mass. The forward assist as designed for the AR-15 would break itself before it forced that sort of bolt into battery, which is a big reason why many AR-10s (including the original) also lack the feature.
To me this argument is a non starter because it assumes that the use case for an FA is the same between 5.56 and .308 sized rifles. That is in fact the entire basis of the argument to begin with. Stoner assumed that the AR-15 worked the same as his AR-10, when it didn't, because the recoil forces (and thus return spring force) are drastically different.
This is the actual reason why 5.56 rifles almost universally have a forward assist function, while larger caliber rifles almost universally don't.
@@DD-hz3ts Interesting. Until now, I hadn’t ever heard that argument or read it anywhere, but it makes sense.
@@WetWiIIy the "debate" around the forward assist is morbidly curious to me because both sides usually articulate their arguments using solely anecdotes and self referential arguments, especially from the "no forward assist" camp, despite their basis being Stoner himself as an engineer.
Stoner never actually articulated why OTHER designs that had a forward assist function, such as the two successful autoloading designs previously used (the M1 garand and M1 Carbine), were bad for having it, because he couldn't. He only specified that HIS rifle should not have one, and it's because he was more concerned with getting the rifle actually made and issued immediately to replace the M14, not because there was actually some other greater reason to omit it.
The tooling for slab side M16s was already being spooled up and producing forward assist versions would have delayed the rifle by some degree. What he did not anticipate was McNamara making it such a high priority that said rifles with forward assists (and closed tine flash hiders, and other improvements that Stoner never implemented on either the M16 or original AR-10, like fenced magazine catches) were plunked out within only 2 years.
Stoner should be credited for laying down the basic design and many of its innovative features, but it is far to say that Stoner was infallible or unquestionable, as the rifle did need actual input from the field and constant improvement. The M4A1s and URGIs issued today incorporate many big and small changes made continuously since Stoner last touched the design, including shell deflectors, much deeper feed ramps, heavy barrel profiles, etc.
Stoner was right, about a lot of things, but he was also WRONG about a number of things, which we take for granted.
The whole reason the forward assist is on milspec ppper receivers is because the military ain't going to have time to keep your rifle clean since you're rucking all day. Everyone cleans a gun after you get home from the rage or in the military. You have to keep pushing and you're going to be shooting a lot more then what someone will be showing up the range. Thereshigher possibility for dirt to get in and cause malfunction where the bolt does not go all the way forward. This was quite common in Vietnam for the M16 did not have it so they came out with the xm16e1 and the m16a1. they to replace the three prong flashhider with a bird cage because it was getting caught in shit. Its not as big of issue as if he was back then because the manufacturing process has gotten better and just the rifle has evolved so much over the years. it's better to have it and not me than the need and not have it
The average person seems to forget that even smart people can have bad takes.
Hey Ivan, thanks for another video, glad you are enjoying making these. Been enjoying watching them.
Civilians also never have to contend with blank rounds used in training. I swear they’re at least half coal dust.
This was interesting and actually changed my mind about it. Thanks for the explanation.
The forward assist also keeps the cancer dust of your fingers.
😅what
I always thought they were for an open battery or a skunk keeps it from being closed but also for being quiet. A whole platoon of Marines slapping their charging handles back to charge their guns is pretty loud in the jungle.
Why would an entire platoon be within ear shot with unloaded rifles?
Rittenhouse literally used it, its on vid it works. Ive used it multiple times myself.
I think he actually used it.
Very informative and well laid out. Best forward assist explanation I have seen.
Keep up the great content
Bote to make the AR-understanders™ pissed
Very good video! I am thoroughly impressed by your explanation. Instantly subscribed. Plenty of great reasons out there for its usage, hence why it is still on almost all ARs today and even HK416s.
You didn't mention the way cooler teardrop FA.
I like having a fixed charging handle. It's a more convenient location for me and I can pull and push if I'd like to.
ask Kyle Rittenhouse if it's useless
Can people stop glorifying that idiot from Illinois and just accept Ivan as the real person to show as a pillar of society from an evil state
Kyle Rittenhouse’s opinion is useless.
@@alexidesadeski5760how many fires did you put out in 2020? Or were you inside watching TV?
@@chadwik4000How many pairs of cop boots did you clean with your tongue in 2020?
@@alexidesadeski5760Oh? And how many pedo's have you disarmed!?
Have an AR chambered in 5.45x39 (it was super super cheap at the time). Due to the very pointy taper of the bullet, the tip will bind up on the feed ramp and jam if the bolt isn't released from all the way rearward and full velocity. A simple tap of the forward assist drives the cartridge into battery every single time.
I use it on the range with my shitty hand loads, works wonders 👍🇺🇲
nonono you don't understand, you're supposed to rack the gun every time your round doesn't go into battery. in case the cartridge is magically cursed or something.
@zetazane my reloads are often cursed and I assist them home anyways🤠
as a combat vet, I have had to use the forward assist multiple different times for multiple different legit reasons. i never used it way we were "trained" to use it. I have only ever bought a single AR15 without a forward assist, and that was because that one was built for a very specific purpose. I will never not have a forward assist due to my experiences.
I rarely ever use it at all, but when I need it, I NEED it.
one time, I got enough fine sand in the action that created enough friction the bolt could eight eject a spent round, nor drive a new round home by itself. I had to use the rifle like a bolt action, manually ejecting every round and sending home the bolt to fire the next round.
Later, I popped the rear takedown pin and pulled the bolt, and ran my hand once over the bolt assembly and then ran my fingers once through teh upper receiver area to remove any sand. Then reassembled and my rifle was back to functioning 100% normally. Took 15sec to restore function, but in the moment I had to shoot as fast as I could, and didn't have time to try to troubleshoot, not knowing it would only take 15sec to clear.
EXACTLY as described at 12:23-12:27 is what I am talking about.
other times, during assembly, I forget to insert the buffer and spring, and then function check the rifle without the spring. I've also seen tons of guys do this as well. And sometimes the ONLY way to get that bolt back out of the buffer tube is to use the forward assist to walk it forward. that is the fastest and easiest method of rectifying this issue as well.
I've had rounds get hung up coming out of a mag (mag issue, or the position the round was in inside the mag) slow the bolt too much and fail to fully seat the bolt in the chamber, and a simple tap can drive the bolt home that last 1mm. Literally nothing wrong with the round nor the gun, but it failed to seat fully, and there is NO issues with seating it with the assist.
MG Spin E. Rat! **snaps to attention**
ATTENTION ON DECK!
I like how Eugene Stoner describes the forward assist as being a complete waste of time, yet it's still one of the most well thought out pieces of design on a rifle with already a lot of very well thought out design. Tells you something about the whole product.
all the greasy reddittors are gonna be big mad you didnt save 0.000001 ounces having a non forward assist upper
I feel like Ivan should do a colab with Zach Hazard
That would be awesome
“Sweep Safe, Sweep Safe, Insert Magazine, Slingshot, Small Brass Check, Tap Forward Assist”… It’s been 19 Years and I still do it. I
I use it all the time, press checks, massive amount of rounds down range, -50 etc.
Every rifle needs to have a way to put a bolt in battery
I have had many malfunctions where I get a round jammed in the chamber, and then I end up getting a double feed, whereas if I had just fired it, I usually would be able to get it out. I found that out after I started having a gun that was dirty enough that I wasn't getting loads from mags to fully chamber, and sometimes if I tried to pull the charging handle, I'd get a double feed and then be fucked, and so then I just started using the forward assist after it happened to me a few times and then it has worked every time. Not saying that I had that many of these failures, they were rare, but now the consequences of it are even more rare and less time intensive. Just giving the assist a lil tap versus having a completely locked gun that requires me to lock back the bolt and take out the mag to clear
The BCG scallop should be better shaped. A 90 degree at the front would be easier to push forward.
I've always wanted a BCG optimized for that
Bear creek arsenal side charging ar15
Why not just use the FA
Easier to push forward, yes, but it would prevent the gun from cycling, as it hammers into the dust cover.
That scallop's only purpose in existing is in opening the dust cover, period.
One edge case, (pun intended) where it could maybe be a jam enhancer, is if you have an over length round, you use the FA to chamber it, and then you eject that round manually, you could pull the bullet, and then dump powder all in your FCG. Unlikely, and probably administrative, but still...
Couple of points (and I am *not* part of the "The forward assist will het you kilt in da streetz!" crowd):
1. You talk about clearing a malfunction (if you dont have a forward assist) by just mindlessly slingshotting the action until it works. Yeah, that's something the Army figured out 50 or so years ago. Which is why the SOP immediate action drill (which isn't the *best* , mind you, but the reasons why it isn't involve problems the forward assist won't help with either, like double feeds) of SPORTS has the "O" - *Observe* . See, if you jack the bolt back and nothing comes *out* of the gun, yoire supposed to lock rhe bilt back and figure out why the extractor didn't get the round out - odds are (particularly if dealing with well ised Armybissue magazines that, frankly, should have been thrown away a couple of years ago but the Army is too cheap to treat magazines as expendable wear items) you have a double feed. Which neither slingshottinf the bolt nor using the forawrd assist will help with - if either does anything, it just makes the problem worse. Hmmm... maybe doing an inmesiate action drill *correctly* instead of doing a Cargo Cult coaplay is a better course of action, no?
2. Your faith in the quality control on "modern ammunition manufacturing", at least withbregard to military issue ammo (you know, rhe stuff used by the folks who are rhe ones most lilely to be using their rifles in cases where - according to you - the forward assist is most likely to be necessary) is amusing. Getting new manufacture USGI ammo, that has been in a metal can from the day it was manufactured until it was issued to you, that is *physically bent* or otherwise mangled is hardly "get hit by lightning 5 times". Nor is it generally a "lot" problem (frankly, it wouod be better if it was - that many problem rounds in a single lot *would* get flagged and the whole lot pulled) - but one round out of an entire bandolier is a problem, too, if *you're* the guy who got issued *that* bandolier. Maybe QC for purely civilian market US made 5.56mm ammo is that good, but getting mutant rounds is common enough that you can expext to find multiple such rounds discarded at the bottoms of each and every one of the "fighting position" holes on an Army range after running a qual course for a company. And each soldier is only firing 40 rounds...
3. In actual service, as an infantry NCO (including being a Drill Sergeant at Benning), I saw a Hell of a lot more rifles malfunction from worn out magazines causing double feeds (FA won't help, and it *can* only make it worse), rounds well dimesnionally out of spec (rarely will a round top too bent up to feed with the normal bolt function from firing or closing from a locked bolt, actually go home with a FA... but Ibhave also seen a rifle bound up so badly as to have to be mortsred after someone tried to Hulk Smash the Quasimodo Cartridge home), or foreign objects like sand and mud *inside the chamber or bolt face* (and, again, FA just jams it tighter - BTDT).
Where I *have* seen FA work well are cases where you have cycled the bolt *manually* and you either short stroked it, rode the bokt down at least part way, or there was fouling between the charging handle and the upper (which adds way more drag to the bolt than most people consider). Press checking is one of those situations where you definately need a way to push the bolt home because you're WAY short stroking it on purpose so it doesnt eject a chambered round... although, if you are running the charging handle, the bolt is probably cold - otherwise you're either loading from a locked back bolt, the last round hold open didn't work (uncommon), or you're in the middle of immediate action (which is why the T is there in SPORTS - Tap the FA). But the biggest use case for manually chargung the weapon is either loading a gun *before* any firing has occured, or doing a press check (which is rarely done in the middle of a firing situation) - both of which generally mean the bolt is cold.
Summary: the forawrd assist is *overall* a good idea, however, to use it *properly* requires the same amount of training (albeit slightly different training) as teaching troops to use a "slickside" rifle that doesn't have a forward assist (like almost everybl single non-reciprocating charging handle ridle ever issues - the Israeli FAL and the utterly failed G41 were about the only major exceptions I can think of of nonreciprocaring chargung handle rifles that did have a FA type system installed. All the G3s, all the FALs aside from the Israeli pattern ones, all the G33s, etc.
During a double feed, running the charging handle ALSO won't help. You have to diagnose the malfunction correctly and do the appropriate action. Running the charging handle on a double feed WITHOUT dropping the magazine, as in an "immediate action" drill, will ALWAYS make it worse by introducing a third round or causing a bolt override.
I don't know how FA use will make a double feed worse because there is no leverage to actually force the cartridge any further than it already is. Pulling the bolt back gives the misfed round space to shift around to cause either a bolt override and/or allow a third round to feed.
In EITHER school of thought (FA or not), the focus should be on observing the problem (and often, removing the source of ammunition) before doing anything.
To me, immediate action is the cause of most of the problems, because it does not teach the enduser how to actually diagnose the problem or how the weapon works, only a rote memorization of a procedure that works MOST of the time. If you are experiencing a bolt override but are following SPORTS, you WILL fuck it up by causing a double/triple feed, because per SPORTS, you are pulling and holding the CH back to observe the ejection port rather than first removing the magazine. This has absolutely nothing to do with the forward assist and everything to do with bad doctrine that hasn't been materially updated since the 60s.
This goes even further to "my soldiers had bad lots of ammunition", because part of the loading process should be inspecting the rounds before you put them in the magazine. It only takes a second or two (just like observing the weapon status through the ejection port before taking remedial action) but isn't trained, because for some reason we think that it's easier to have to pull dud or out of spec rounds out of our weapons on the firing line or in combat rather than when we're at the ammo pallet mindlessly shoving stripper clips into our mags outside of live fire.
Most of the time when people bring up the lack of forward assists, it's almost always .308 platforms. That's not an accident, .308 platforms have much stouter springs and much heavier/larger carriers that can force themselves into battery in a variety of situations. But consider how many INTERMEDIATE caliber platforms do NOT have a forward assist or the ability to do so.
Of the extant designs, only one major design that uses a similar rotating bolt lacks it. The tavor series. This is because the gun is designed to be as sealed as possible with heavy overgas and a large carrier to try to keep it operational. The HK33 you mentioned, as well as the FAMAS, use delayed blowback designs where the bolt thrust is high enough to try to force it into battery in adverse conditions. All others, from the HK433 to the AUG to the G36 and SCAR (even the non reciprocating CH ones) have a forward assist function, and it is not because they were copying the M16 design by rote. In intermediate caliber designs, failure to go into battery is a real concern due to the combination of relatively light recoiling round and consequentially relatively light recoil systems, and a high force to overcome bolt locking mechanism.
So your response to the point that the FA is a minor but capable part of ensuring your rifle is properly chambered is to bring up failures that it won't help and ammo being of poor quality?
It's almost like the FA IS TO ASSIST THE BOLT FORWARD. not ram shit into battery like a sledgehammer. It's not MADE to fix those failures that require a full set of diagnostic actions. That's why we have SPORTS and shit like that.
Your argument is exactly like saying "Well a screwdriver can't fix a piston failure!". No shit. It's not designed to.
Why do people confuse this? I don't get it.
I have never once, including in my over 20 years of military service, needed to use the forward assist. However, your argument is persuasive. My next AR just might have a forward assist on it.
A time and a place for all features.
When boolit??
@@IvanPrintsGuns Whatever do you mean? Nice video by the way.
How goes the dagger?
@@themanhimself1229 No clue what you're on about. A knife of some kind?
@@dtaggartofRTD the Dagny Dagger of course, your long term project.
The FA has helped me turn my rifle from and elegant paper weight to a proper metal thrower before. I will always have on eon my AR. There was no other way out of my jam.
Damn, I got psy-op'ed on this one hard. This is a good lecture, sometimes it's important to take a step back.
Believe it or not the military knows stuff
awesome history, explanation, and observation of the FA. personally I like the redundancy, and piece if mind the FA offers.
Rittenhouse agrees
You have no jawline like him
I think anti forward assist comes from the min-max society I’m going to minimize the weight of the rifle so I can maximize my enablers. Also my 2 🥺covert cqb 🥺 guns don’t have forward assists and since they’re suppressed I need to make sure I keep up the maintenance schedule like my duty proven jammy staccato that needs broke down and cleaned every 500 rounds. Only 1k through the stac might loosen up, but we’ll see.
All I knew about the forward-assist is that God put it there to save Kyle Rittenhouse
Thank you for clarifying that its there for more reasons than Fudd memes could elucidate
I had some failures to extract some cheap, shitty ammo my first time shooting the AR I built from a kit (got an Aero Precision lower receiver at a local gun store for a good price). The only way to get it out was to drop the mag, use the forward assist to grab the case, and pull the charging handle. So even in easy range conditions, it can still be useful.
Hey Ivan its not related to the video but I wanted to know have you ever looked into making brass cartridges from scratch? I was wondering if it could be done at home I know there's printed ammo but I think DIY brass ammo is worth pursuing
People have looked at this, it's really hard but probably doable, deep drawing brass isn't the absolute hardest thing ever but building the dies would be less than simple and likely really need to be carbide to be effective.
@@flavortown3781 I think done in multipul stages a 30 ton bottle jack might have the pressure needed and the dies could be made from HSS tool blanks. though I agree carbide is better.
another good thing about the forward assist is feeling cool when you slap in a mag, tap the bolt close and smack the assist
solution: get an ak
Why you want forward assist on Kalashnikov? Must be american movie guy john rambo.
@@queuedjar4578 ewww why, ak simple, you see not go to battery, you slap the charging handle
"Quick video"
>20 minutes
Never change ivan
Fixed charging handles can be used in the same way as a forward assist, yet no ones calling them Jam Handles. Personally that beats any criticism people can throw at the forward assist.
I forgot Alaska exists lol, knowing cold humid environments especially when it has a gradient of temperatures through out the day guns do get ice on the inside without users doing anything. Granted that is prevented with good lubrication but that wears off pretty quickly. That might be enough justification on it's own.
But I will say the forward assist even in field use doesn't get that much use. As you stated if it got grimy enough to get hung up before battery there's a solid chance a small rock or sand is blocking the bolt or stuck in the star chamber and pressing the forward assist wouldn't do anything. Or just alot of sand is in the way that it's interfering with the bolt's ability to rotate or seat in the chamber which also happens alot. On other cases if your chamber is so dirty that using the forward assist is the solution and it works, not always but say 35% ish of the time you might get a failure to extract. Generally though the above said issues are solved by using the dust cover and having the bolt open as little as possible when you are playing in the mud/sand. It doesn't make the forward assist useless, it's just one of the last resorts on the remediation process before disassembly.
The simplest answer you can give to people who quote stoner on him saying “if the round doesn’t want to go in then it shouldn’t be there” is that literally every firearm until that point was slamming the round into the chamber manually, disregarding if it wanted to go in there at all. Bolt guns, pump actions, and m1 models (Garand and carbine *with some exceptions*) are all sending rounds into the chamber with straight muscle. Modern firearms with encased bolts (AR platform and FAL as mentioned) do it with springs. Springs are not as strong as muscle. Sometimes rounds don’t feed when they are supposed to, and sometimes you need to put it in there with muslce
Auto-loaders had been around since the late 19th century when smokeless powder first made them feasible. The US military had been using them since WWI (M1917 water-cooled machine gun, M1918 Browning Automatic Rifle, Lewis machine gun, Chauchat machine gun, M1911 pistol, etc). More directly relevant, the AR bolt and carrier took heavy inspiration from the M1941 Johnson rifle that saw limited US use in WWII. What point are you trying to make?
@@timewave02012 All of those you mentioned have a bolt that can be forced forward, what’s yours?
@@Nat_556 I think he's referring to the fact that you said that M1 rifles and carbines "...are all sending rounds into the chamber with straight muscle," categorizing them with manual repeaters, which they are not.
@@AtlasJotun quote “*with some exceptions*” A lot of work garands will have you slap the bolt forward, and regular grime on both will have you push the bolt to make sure it’s fully closed
@@Nat_556 An 80 year old, clapped out Garand doesn't become a manual repeater akin to a pump shotgun just because the bolt sticks. Nor is it "straight muscle" pushing a cartridge into battery, it's the recoil spring doing that. All you're doing is getting the bolt moving. You can also just pull the charging handle back (called a slingshot) on most of them; tapping them forward isn't always necessary even on the jankier guns.
It's still a self-loading rifle and what you said is inaccurate. If it were a manual repeater, there would be no such thing as "Garand Thumb," because that happens solely due to spring tension closing the bolt on your thumb.
I've used mine a couple times, it's a nice to have when your gun is running dry and you know it's most likely not an ammo issue. though a spray of CLP would usually fix any OOB issues you were having :)
One thing that AR-15 redditors will always ignore is that the final version of the AR-10 made by AI had a forward assist. Eugene Stoner's statement about no country that tested and used his design asked for a forward assist was just wrong.
The final version of the AR-10 AI made was adopted by Portugal in 1960. The forward assist it had was incorporated into the charging handle, you pushed down the charging handle and it locked into the carrier key and could be pushed forward.
That is a perfect traditional M16 setup
the forward assist is handy if you're iraqi reloading the ar15 and you don't have the charging handle all the way back when you let go
Iraqi loading?
@@roflchopter11 yeah you take your right hand, pull the charging handle back, pull out a new mag with your left and drop the empty, load the new mag and then release the charging handle. it's the most efficient way to reload since you don't need to charge it afterwards
@@coolbugfacts1234you don’t ever need to charge an AR on a reload. Either the mag is completely empty and the bolt locks back (and can then be released with the bolt release button), or the mag was not completely empty and no bolt manipulation is required. Stick with cod little bro lol
@@andreahighsides7756 ok then why do you have to charge an AR every time in counter strike? video games are extremely accurate in their depiction of assault rifle 15 🙄🙄🙄
@@coolbugfacts1234 good point damn :/
This is a good informative breakdown thanks Ivan.