Can the Honey Badger Replace the MP5SD?
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- Опубликовано: 3 авг 2024
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The .300 Blackout cartridge and the rifle we now know as the Honey Badger were originally developed by AAC by request of a US special forces military unit. They wanted to replace their MP5SD submachine guns with a weapon that was still very quiet but had more terminal lethality than subsonic 9mm Parabellum ammunition. To do this, Kevin Brittingham and AAC started with the .300 Whisper cartridge and made a few tweaks, then chambered it in an AR derivative with a collapsing stock, short buffer system, short barrel, and telescoping silencer like the MP5. Later, when Brittingham started the company Q, he introduced a commercial version of that rifle as the Honey Badger.
So the question is; how well does the Honey Badger accomplish the mission of replacing the MP5SD?
For this video, I will be comparing a Honey Badger with an H&K SP5 converted to SD configuration by HiTec Arms. My conclusion is that the Honey Badger actually is a very competent replacement for the MP5SD. The MP5 is a bit quieter and has quicker followup shots (thanks to less recoil and more weight). The Honey Badger is lighter and handier, has better controls, is just as fast, is more accurate at ranges beyond CQB, and has better terminal performance. The MP5SD has massive aesthetic appeal, but I think the Honey Badger is pretty clearly the more practically effective of the two designs for the role they were designed for.
Full video on the MP5SD:
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The ricochet noises are amazing. The fact that we can HEAR them is insane.
It really is crazy how quiet the SD is. Almost hard to believe there's a full 9x19 load of powder going off in there. It just sounds like the action cycling.
Ya I was thinking the same thing! I had the joy of experience that in real life 8 years ago. I guy brought his suppressed AR9 to a shooting event and the sound the bullets made after hitting the steel target and flying into the wild blue yonder was so cool! The zipping whistling noise they make is so cool and weird, you really need to experience it in real life.
If supressors were not an NFA item we could all experience this.
I sincerely hope whomever does Ian's production/filming has a separate setup for recording those ricochets. They would make a great sound library for future action movies.
5:17 is my favorite ricochet noise
7:35 - the shot after Ian says "Aww, c'mon!", the camera actually captures the bullet coming out of the muzzle
Pretty funny that he then says: "I saw that one." We did as well!
Good eye!
Honey Badger would’ve been forgotten if it wasn’t for Call of Duty ghosts.
Insurgency Sandstorm is where I know it from
False. Honey badger dgaf. Honey badger never dies. Honey badger hates container ships and poors. Honey badger loves halo jumping and scuba diving. Honey badger smol and very angery. Honey badger protec, attac but most importantly fits in your backpac. You besmirch honey badger at your own peril.
What's a call of duty ghost?
@@fonesrphunny7242the first time cod introduced the weapon into its games in 2013
Still play that, of all the CoD series, it's my favourite
It shouldn't be that surprising that the Honey Badger is superior in at least some ways. The MP5 came out in '66 and the SD in '74. The Honey Badger is 40 years younger.
let HK do the honey badger today
@@Bonnir They could have at any time. Q tries new things. When's the last time HK genuinely tried something new?
AND it's a bespoke gun. The HKs are mass production. A bespoke HK .300 SD, utilizing 2024 knowhow, would certainly be bancruptingly expensive (ja, it's not our fault you can't afford our superiour german engineering, peasant), but it would kick Honey Badger ass. Not that the HB is a bad gun. But just look at the uncomfortably hot handguard and only being able to use a third of that handguard, because the can blocks the M-LOKs. No. Just no.
@@darthhodges Well there was the one time they tried to sell the world newer, lighter SMG's with simpler delayed blowback system and much more extensive use of polymers and everyone was like "we'll stick with these 35-year-old, heavier, more complex things you already sold us".
On a more serious note: yeah, German gun manufacturers don't have a good historical track record for continuing innovation or pre-empting the market in order to stay ahead.
And yet the MP5SD beats it in two key categories: Cost of ammo (you can run any standard 9mm in the MP5SD, whereas the Honey Badger needs .300 Subs) and you can't cosplay a 80s action movie with the Honey Badger the same way you can with the MP5SD. So I'd take the MP5SD any day. Unfortunately it is a handgun under German gun laws (barrel is under 30cm) and suppressed handguns are quite restricted here (center fire long gun suppressors are available with just my hunting permit without any additional prior approval or tax stamp, I just need to report the purchase, like with any other long gun). So it is kind of my unicorn gun :(
Can we admire how much better Ian is on spinners?
Practice helps.
better than what?
@@TheGreg6466better than he used to be
@@TheGreg6466 than he used to be - dip into the archives and you see he wasn't near as good as now & hated them coming up in a match
@@TheGreg6466 Ian is better with spinners than his younger self from few years prior.
7:06
-1000 points to Honey Badger for ejecting brass into Ian
Don't knock the weapon for the user's handedness challenges. ;-)
Yeah, that’s ‘ableism’ 😆
@@blshouse This is what is colloquially known as a "skill issue".
Honey Badger don't give a ****!
@@1312Johnny calling it 'ableism' implies being left-handed is a disability, haha.
The Honey Badger will, to me, always disappear in a sea of faceless custom ARs. The MP5 is a timeless icon, that has unlimited cool factor.
The mp5 was great the first 20 years it was out. Now it's laughable, still awesome and usable but laughable in comparison
@@GUARDIAN.13it’s the equivalent to like a gold plated gun now, in thought it’s the coolest thing ever but in practicality it’s useless and not best option. to me tho it’s got the cool factor like he said
@@GUARDIAN.13
Obsolescent? Yes.
Laughable? How dare you.
@@vault_dwelIer when I can compare a delayed blowback AR in 9mm and it is almost half the weight, one third the price, last round bolt hold open, better ergonomics and uses Glock mags I tend to use the word laughable. So yes it's laughable in comparison when actually thinking about more than it's icon status.
@@GUARDIAN.13 Awesome and laughable.
You should take some logic lessons.
Remember…. Most important thing is looking cool. And both of these look cool.
An MP5 will always be cooler than any "AR looking" gun.
I feel that the main advantage for the MP5-SD is ammo. Like discussed on the 9-hole podcast pick one, the MP5 gives you better density of ammo on your kit, in exchange for worse density of ammo in the sense you're carrying not just more mags, but heavier mags. Couple that with using standard 9mm ammo and there are still niches it will make sense.
Except a 300 blk super isn’t much heavier than a 9mm super. This argument applies for a full loadout of subs but for a split loadout 300 blk offers more power, obviously range, and versatility.
@@K-bob_45 what I mean is that in the same space of kit, you can carry roughly twice as many magazines, though each individual magazine is going to be heavier. Twice as many, heavier magazines, you can carry double the round count in the same space but it'll be over twice as heavy.
All the other pros and cons in the video still stand of course
@@joaoie I don’t think a 30 round MP5 mag loaded with even 124 supers is gonna be lighter than an AR mag (polymer or aluminum) loaded with 300 blk supers
@@K-bob_45 I'm not disagreeing, in both my comments I say the MP5 has heavier magazines.
@@K-bob_45he's not talking about the weight of the mags, but the physical size. Two MP5 mags can roughly fit in the same size pouch as a single AR mag, so you get double the ammo capacity for the same amount of space.
Some wicked ricochets being picked up by the microphone.
Ian, on the SP5 telescoping stock, when it's collapsed, if you pull it quickly it'll fully extend without having to use the latch to unlock it. I have the same setup on mine.
I think the biggest advantage (for someone not on a specops blank check budget) is that the MP5/SD uses basic .28cpr 9x19, while the HB requires semi-boutique 200/208/220gr subsonic $2pr ammo. Frankly an SD conversion on an MKE AP5 wouldn't even be more expensive than the Q
Where are you paying $2 per round for subsonic .300 BLK? Shit, at $2 per round I'll gladly sell you subsonic .300 all day long and buy an equal amount to what I'm selling you for myself.
@@SCAR16Lhis point stands in that 9mm will forever be exponentially cheaper than 300 BLK
Good point and well said.
@@andrews.7754 I don't think you know what exponentially means. 80 CPR vs 35 CPR is not "exponentially".
Also, exaggerating like he did is just him shitting all over the point he was trying to make.
Or just buy the MKE SD version, no conversion needed, if you are outside the US...
5:17 bullet said whooooaaaaahhhhhhh
Must be the same language my astromech droid uses. 🤔
Hearing the difference when it locks open on an empty mag is really neat and goes to show that what you are hearing is the action. I think I had always been interpreting the action sound as actually the sound of the round firing.
FYI, action noise can actually be relatively loud. Especially in very quiet guns. We discovered in testing that a well suppressed 10/22 actually has a louder bolt drop on an empty chamber than the actual report. Interestingly, there is also what we call the "brass dampening" effect: bolt drop on a loaded round or spent casing is significantly quieter than an empty chamber due to natural resonance.
Sound on videos is VERY misleading. There is a clear loud pop at the muzzle on both of these firearms. Yes, the action contributes, but these things still sound like 22LR IRL.
Would be cool to see 8.6 Blackout tested like this too, acknowledging it's no MP5 replacement
You mean his 8.6 Fix that is so terrible built that he has to tape up his magazines just to get a manual action to run. F Q! Brittingham is a grifter.
I'm going to wait for 10 Blackout.
@rootjr.3658 he actually has the boombox which is 8.6 in same design as a honey badger
Yo I loved your stalker mods back in the day
For the price, the Honey Badger is the clear winner in every way. I would never fault anyone for choosing the MP5SD, for the simple fact that it is a VERY effective and unbelievably cool gun.
Forgotten Weapons is still a high point of my day after all these years. Thanks Ian
Usually any content, be it games, media, educational material etc, gets better, peaks, stagnates and declines. Forgotten weapons just keeps getting better and enternaining throughout amazingly long time. I'm happy that people appreciate that!
Great video. I really like the way you explain things Ian. I live in the UK so we can’t experience the same things as you can in the US.
Ian I have been watching you shoot for a few years now and you have come really far. good job.
Excellent review/comparison as usual. Thank you
The zone hit graphic overlay is a nice touch
6:52….ahh yes the disadvantages of being left handed in a right handed world.
I know this pain all to well
I've always thought of it thusly: there's _right_ handed people, and then there's _correct_ handed people.
You mean wrong handed.
Especially in the gun world I'd imagine
As Dugan Ashley would say. Become right handed.
And then there's me, a right handed dude who's blind in my right eye so I shoot left 💀
Such an interesting and entertaining channel , fantastic prolific content
Good video. Also, I love your shoulder patch!
I just found your channel. I really like your delivery. Intelligent and no nonsense.
Oh man, I'm so jealous of the rabbit hole you're about to go down. I wish i could experience Ian for the first time again. You have YEARS of Gun Jesus content to get through.
Go check out the "What Would Stoner Do" series where Ian and Karl from InRange go through designing the AR-15 using Stoner's original design theory plus modern manufacturing/materials (which also includes clips of Stoner himself explaining his intention when designing the AR-15). Then rejoice when you realize you can go buy the result of their work. Or make your own version. I followed their blueprint, with some minor differences, and it's by far my favorite rifle I own!
Edit: for reference, my iteration came out at around $1k. It includes a 14.5 FN CHF pencil barrel with pinned/welded A2 birdcage, the KP-15 monolithic polymer lower, KE Arms SLT-1 trigger, EOTech 512, and a 30+1 total weight coming in at just under 7.5 pounds. Took some time waiting for deals on parts, but completely worth it. Absolutely outstanding rifle.
The Hitzone overlay is amazing!
As always, thx for the knowledge.
Great video Ian
I know a guy who made a honey badge clone. He used a Dead Foot Arms for a folding brace and an Aero lower and a HuXWRX flow through can. With the flow though can, you don't really need to fiddle with an adjustable gas block. And the Dead Foot Arms uses a double spring action instead of a buffer weight.
100's of rounds from 125 grain to 220 grain and no jams. He did break a drop in trigger and had to swap it for a geissele. It's been a while since I talked to him. He may have had a jam by now, but I don't know.
I built a 8” 300 blk, I also own a nobeske “ghetto blaster” and a suppressed Sp5. I have to say my tuned home built with a JP silent spring is by far the most enjoyable to shoot. The HB style stock seems to transfer more recoil than a normal AR stock.
Well...yeah. There's a different (shorter) buffer system.
Very enjoyable video. Good comparisons. Thanks.
a great very interesting video calibers and firearms.have a good one Mr.GJ.
I love the Saint Javelin patch, awesome drip in general!
that's pretty funny, thanks for pointing that out
I thought this was a collab I've missed before realizing lol
@@updog4Lhe's also worn NAFO-OFAN patches before, really cool stuff
i was like "did anyone else spot it?" great to see i wasn't alone :D
I’m glad he is supporting the gay pride movement 🏳️🌈
I love to see that Saint Javelin patch. Keep up the good work
Interesting, and educational. Thanks Ian.
This is a question that I have asked for years. I am just starting to watch the video and I am really excited about it. I will comment again at the end.
Love to see this done versus an AS VAL / VSS
Mechanically they are the same.
@ChadVulpes yes, thats why it would be interesting
@@lifes2short4aname Sorry, I thought the commenter said a comparison between AS VAL and VSS. Ignore my comment, please.
Love the shoutout to @psr at 10:04
cool edit, thanks for the video
Great show ian thank you very much
Chasing the "Velocity is fixed so the more weight the better." line of thinking, I recently got my .454 can out of jail and put it on my 45-70 1895 Marlin. 550 grains at 1000 fps or so... I haven't gotten it to the range yet and I have no legitimate use case for this thing, but it should be fun.
Interesting. When I first heard of the 300 Blackout (and by chance found a case in some second had .223 brass I imported) my initial reaction was we had regressed to the days of the M1 Carbine which in its day was gap filler between pistol and sub machine calibres and full power rifles. There was even an experimental suppressed version of the M1 produced for the SOE. I would be fascinated by a comparison of the M1 and Honey Badger. Your contacts should be able to get you access to a suppressed version of the M1 (even maybe the original)
The M1 cannot use the heavy 220-250 grain bullets that make 300 Blackout worthwhile as a subsonic cartridge. The Blackout family of cartridges - and their unfortunately proprietary, nearly identical ancestors the Whisper family developed at SSK back in the 90s, are intended for use in normal-length rifle actions. The blackouts have shorter brass than usual in order to accomodate long, heavy bullets, but they have little in common with the vastly outdated Winchester Self Loading family of cartridges the .30 Carbine comes from. Also .30 Carbine doesn't match 7.62x39 ballistics the way supersonic .300 Blackout does.
You should look at the 350 legend it is essentially a modern version of the 30 cal ammo the M1 used. Its a 9mm bullet in a straight case .223 case. But i would challenge the use of the word "regression" It is a production representative of need. Heavier bullets with shorter cases and range are just better in a close quarters setting. Whether it's hunting terrorists in a cramped compound or hunting deer in heavy brush something in a handy package that hits hard out to 100yards is going to be better than a larger weapon with a longer range.
7:54 you can actually see the round leave the barrel, I don’t think I’ve ever seen that with a standard camera, the way it slows the round down is crazy effective
The occasional round deflecting and spinning off into the distance, adds so much to the video.
Man, I'm glad that it only took *check notes* 37 years to something finally surpass the MP5SD on pretty much everything, and it still has some advantages on some cases...and the S L A P.
That's a pretty big gap. You can assemble a "badgerlike" ar with almost no tools for 1/5 of the price of an SD in 9 these days. Love the classic slap too, but you can't argue with the modularity of the ar and the benefit of carrying 200+ gr. subs.
I’m sorry, I’m gonna go the shallow route: I like the Honey Badger best because it’s named Honey Badger.
When I get an SP5 I will also send it off to get converted. Thank you for that shout out :)
From someone my age (27) who was raised relatively poor and over the years got better jobs and have had the luxury of collecting some firearms this video is so kick ass! I have always watched your videos since i found your channel and i hope to have the ability that you have some day to compare and contrast first hand with suck cool and iconic firearms side by side! Sadly broke my back doing construction and dealing with that but man this is the coolest thing in the world to me other than my kids
Camera operator definitely likes the winter, they can wear thicker jackets.
Honey Badger don't care
Love the Saint Javelin patch!
The sound each action makes is interesting.
Your range videos make me miss the days I lived in Arizona.
I think the big advantage is SMG use on full auto. Up close where this is intended to be used you can easily put a controlled burst more or less on the fly into a target, whereas a rifle you generally won’t. On a shot per shot basis the Honey Badger is undoubtedly better, but on a trigger pull per trigger pull basis, in the way they’re intended to be run, I’d wager the MP5 can compensate. (Ian’s test on controlability reflects that)
Now with the MP5SD being the length it is the gap doesn’t matter so much, but I think people really overexaggerate how short smaller ARs are. Your typical SMG will inherently be shorter than something like a MK18. I also think people have misattributed the popularity of SBRs to better performance when really I think it was more a result of the era.
When SMGs were big for jobs like SWAT, guns like the CAR-15 and HK roller delayed 5.56 existed but were largely left the wayside by the MP5. However after 9/11 SBRs took the world by storm and I suspect this wasn’t because SMGs were inferior as CQB weapons, but rather now instead of clearing a crackhouse authorities were now worried about open streets, shopping malls, stadiums, etc.
This is likely true, it was recognised that SWAT engagements may now need to take place over variable ranges within the same encounter (think roaming terrorist in a mall or a school shooter who could be between buildings, across a sportsfield or in a classroom). This was never really a tactical issue in the past. Also, over-penetration of higher calibre rounds was a serious concern in the past. Standard 5.56mm ball at close range could easily pass through a target and a wall, ending up hitting a civilian/hostage, a friendly manning a cordon or even some onlooker/journalist if your luck is bad. What changed the game was frangible ammunition which was introduced in the early 2000s. This allows 5.56mm stopping power and range without concerns for ricochet or punching through a target/wall.
Frangible ammunition got its combat test in Iraq/Afghanistan and has also seen heavy usage in maritime operations. For a modern Western military, it is clear that the SMG no longer holds dominion for planned close-quarters operations and there are now better options for dealing with body armour when you have rifle-calibre rounds at your disposal again.
The only potential advantage I can see to the MP5SD is its quiet rapport with off-the-shelf 9mm. I don't know enough to be able to say whether there are equivalent options with better-performing ballistics and without needing proprietary ammunition but I could conceivably see this as being a rarely required niche that the MP5SD could still fill.
For organisations with more significant budgetary constraints, the MP5 platform probably offers excellent options in a common standard calibre without needing to spend money on fancy ammo and without facing logistical problems in making sure the right ammo is available at the right moment.
@@ramsayt2419 I think in theory, a niche where SMGs could really shine would actually be home defense. Body armor isn’t so much of a concern as most burglars are opportunists looking for a quick lick.
This is assuming the SMG is something easy to control like an MP5.
Of course we’ll probably never know for sure as an SMG in a home defense role is so highly unlikely and uncommon that we wouldn’t have enough data points to make any determination, and even if we could it would be too impractical of an acquisition to matter.
Battle of the sneaky-breekis!
Ugh, I was thinking the same thing yesterday! Ian to the rescue once again!
Great video. I have both the 9mm CMMG DRB and the 300 blackout from CMMG and love them both. They do like every other gun have there special needs and uses. If setting up a 300 blackout set it up for the subs as for the gas system. If you set it up for supersonic and shoot subs you most likely will have issues.
It's crazy that that honey badger is the same length and a lot lighter. It looks like a much larger and heavier gun. Much better cartridge too, it's no wonder than most of the UK armed Police have switched to .300 blackout AR's over their old MP5's.
Have they really? That’s interesting.
@@Ozyrus Yeah that makes way more sense than ARs, even though your military did just buy a crap ton of the best ARs America has to offer
If you want to use both sub and super sonic, the SIG Rattler seems to be a better option? thanks to the gas setting avaible instead of the pseudo DI of the Honey Badger?
You literally can put an adjustable gas block on any AR
@@KoyoteMaglen it's not included in some (at least) "big names" AR-15 even those in 300 BLK, and I don't remember exactly what Ian said in the video but it was like "the stock configuration Honey Badger isn't perfect when you want to change type of ammo 'on the go' / 'in fight'".
And I'm 100% don't know is SWAT-like or GIGN-like units across the world are willing to pay a bit more to have this capability. Idk 🤷
I love watching videos like this. Sounds like you're shooting a 22 with the sd
Cool arm patch, my friend.
Own both and love both. Funny thing is my Mp5SD (preban registered select fire gun, not a sear pack) costs a heck of a lot more ( mine was passed down to me) than a Honey Badger but much cheaper to shoot. Though HB is better for distance, parts and adaptability IMO. My 1979 SD is a collectors piece to me so it mainly a vault/safe queen and shoot my Dakota Tactical HK SP5 to SD conversion instead. Both rock though and totally hearing safe with supers or subs.
I wonder if the "constant recoil" system in some lmgs might reduce the remaining noise? (I.e., the noise of the action)
the suppressed ultimax i saw years and years ago was surprisingly quiet, not delisle or m76 with the suppressor quiet, but was still quite impressed.
presumably only on full auto
If the bolt sliding in place is the final point of noise, you've done an amazing job as an engineer! ... But there's still work to be done. ;)
@@ScottLovenberg There's plenty of guns where the action is the loudest noise when used with a suppressor
It may help a little, but you can't eliminate noise of bolt going back into battery. But it will make a gun longer (so you have more space to fully stop bolt before it hits back of receiver), or you'll need to abandon collapsible stock to do it without changing overall length.
Great Video Ian!
I would really like to see a head to head comparison with AR-15's 300AAC vs 7.62x39.
They both have their applications.
I have a build similar to the HB, but id still love a sp5
Can also use a HK437 9" with .300 Blackout and a silencer. More modern platform, more stock variants, stylish, slapable...can even have a mp5 magazine paddle release. Hard to get I guess.
But one can't probably find said 300 blackout as paratroopers dropped behind enemy lines o do recon and sabotage during world war 3.
Hence why MP5SD does what it does. Ultra silent, still can kill person plenty well weapon of high volume of fire on moment of need with the most widely available around the world ammunition. Not only is it your standard ammunition..... it is probably also your enemy's standard ammunition.
Plus just on own side also, any units logistics train could support MP5SD. You could just hand a unit bunch of SDs and go "here is a sneaker tool for your recon patrol to use. Like the standard submachine gun, but really silent"
Different jobs, different requirements.
Top tier raid unit, doing this one specific job with massive prep and logistics support: honey badger.
Fighting total war scale continent spanning war of national survival: MP5SD
If I know one thing about the Honey Badger... it's that they have no fear, even against poisonous snakes.
Thank you very much your videos have been very educational over the last few years I have learned alot about guns from them😊😊. And I am just an average person who doesn't really own a gun but I always wanted to learn about them thank you very much and have a good evening ✨😊.
10:02 Shout out to your cameraman singing ‘Print Shoot Repeats’ song “Do the HK slap”. Nice.
Apart from the fact that the Honey Badger in .300 Blackout is ballistically superior. It seems that there is little point in the MP-5SD in modern times besides the 'Gucci' factor. It seems that a better 9mm option would be a standard MP-5 with a suppressor attached and as high pressure, high-weight subsonic ammunition as the gun can handle.
How about a 10mm option?
@minkinomics3002 Indeed. If there is any platform the 10mm is perfect for, it's a carbine like the MP-5.
Edit: to be clear, as long as you're not forced to use "standard" supersonic ammunition like the 124gr 9mm, there is little reason to use a special version of the MP-5 like the SD.
Isnt there the ump loaded with .45 that is already subsonic? Yhe
@@minkinomics3002 The FBI used it on all kind of MP5 (not sure if some LE agencies used the UMP 10mm, but I'm sure the idea of using it was dropped in favor 0f .40 and .45 on the UMP - can use 9mm as well - and the MP5 in all versions is currently only being used on 9x19mm) and dropped the cal almost right after starting to use it.
Exactly. A full auto MP5 is still one of the flattest and softest shooting “machine guns” available which is incredible for a 60yo design. But subsonic 9mm is essentially just .380.
The 40% more mass of 300blk and the fact projectiles are specifically designed around subsonic performance equates to fairly significant differences in damage to soft target
Is the SP-5 now a double stamped NFA item after SBR registration, or is the suppressor a separate item?
The suppressor is separate; just one stamp for the gun.
The local Sheriff has Ian in speed dial for suppressors at this point, I'm sure. He might even get frequent flyer miles but now! A friend here in Minnesota applied for a suppressor on his match rifle and was up and running with it in about a year after first applying. Because, clearly reducing hearing damage should be a chore for the citizen and an allocation of resources on the government side. Sorry, I'll get off my soap box.
@@ScottLovenbergthat requirement is no longer valid.
@@ScottLovenberg Face it, Gov't is going to make it difficult for avg. citizen to use their rights & its only going to get much worse.
@@guytech7310 as long as any government exists you have no rights
The deflection sounds are oddly soothing
I set up a 300BLK with a law folder, not just because 'foldy cool', but I can swap buffers rapidly to match buffer weight with gas produced by specific ammo. Carbine buffers end up being the best middle ground, mileage may vary based on the gas port size. I found an aluminum variant of the Law folder's plug that goes in the BCG, and some ultralight (adjustable) buffers.
Just gonna copy this out of the description: "The MP5SD has massive aesthetic appeal, but I think the Honey Badger is pretty clearly the more practically effective of the two designs for the role they were designed for."
The MP5 is a machinen pistole, you're missing the machinen part which is critical to it's operation. Sure the Honey Badger can replace the MP5 as a RIFLE, the MP5 has a semi auto setting for occasional long range shots but it's intended use is supposed to be in full auto. Comparing how fast they can spin the spinner when the MP5 is being used as an actual submachine gun would be a more apt comparison, with how smooth that thing shoots in full auto you can forget about measly doubles and triples, you could flip that thing with one half mag burst before you even have a chance to aim down at the bottom plate.
I might be misremembering, but I think they do have a video testing the MP5 on a spinner in full-auto. It isn't quite as simple as you describe, but short, well-timed bursts _can_ allow you to get an extra round or two on the plate before having to adjust your sights to the other side, and you _sometimes_ could spin the plate faster than you would with a semi-auto MP5. It wasn't a game changer though like you would imagine it to be and they certainly weren't spinning the plate with half-mag bursts on the top plate.
All that being said, you have a point that the sub-machine gun aspect was left out of the comparison, but he does mention at the end of the video that the MP5 is the clear winner when it comes to controlled recoil or shooting tight doubles/triples. This point would logically extend to shooting in full-auto as well. In other words, if you had a full-auto Honey Badger and a full-auto MP5 you are going to see the more controllable recoil for the MP5 stand out for sure when comparing full-auto fire, but I can't imagine it would change the overall pros/cons (in my mind).
Of course, I am more than happy to take one of each! Give me an MP5SD (with the Navy-style trigger pack because three different options for automatic fire is better than one, right?) _and_ a Honey Badger (in full-auto as well because this is my fantasy where I get two expensive firearms for free so the ATF can fuck off). ☺
You can really hear the maybe 500,000 RPM spin rates of the Blackout with all those cool 'pee-yow' ricochets.
Bro, those ricochets sound lovely.
Kudos to Ian for taking the MP5 range performance like a man.
I would have had an expression on my face that could curdle milk.
It’s worth mentioning for running unsuppressed supersonic, 300blk only needs a 8-10in barrel to hit its efficiency plateau.
Versus 16-20in for .223/5.56 and 14-18in for 7.62x39, with 10in and 8in considered bare minimum barrel lengths respectively. Where 300blk can go down to 5-6in.
I thought the moment when friction exceeds acceleration for 300 was 16 inches.
I think, the 9mm being more quite is the entire reason it was chosen for special forces. They aren’t shooting distance and using it’s rate of fire, it’s all about being as quite as possible. Back in the 80s, 90s early 00s that was the reasoning. Are there better choices now, yes.
I disagree. 9mm is still the standard US military pistol round, so the logistics of keeping the guns supplied with ammo are way simpler than trying to get .300BO to a couple of units that need it. On the civilian side, 9mm is also so much easier and cheaper to get that unless you just want to play with the Honey Badger, it still doesn't make any sense.
@@FuckGoogle502 The standard military pistol round is irrelevant because conventional units aren't using MP5SD's in the first place, and they're not getting Honey Badgers to replace non-existent MP5SD's. Small units with obscene budgets have a very easy time getting specialized ammunition. They've been using short-barreled M4 CQBR's/Mk18's (specialized weapons), PVS-15's, PVS-31's, and others (specialized NOD's), Mk262 (specialized ammunition) with no issue for decades.
And that would matter in a videogame. Real world situations don't work that way. It's worth pointing out that you can't even spell quiet.
@@FuckGoogle502 these are weapons for special forces special ammunitions are not a problem.
the small caliber is also used to minimize the risk of collateral damage in hostage situations for instance.
Ian, one thing you misrepresented, the Honey Badger doesn't have the "shortest possible buffer". You should look at the Dead Foot Arms SCW 2.5, while just a modified cycle system and stock setup, it is in fact much shorter than the Honey Badger's. Obviously that isn't a complete rifle, but you CAN get a short system than the Honey Badger's.
Love your patch!
Just by being in the AR platform (with superior ergos, last round bolt hold-open, accessory mounting, etc.), the Honey Badger is at least 1 full generation ahead of my childhood sweetheart MP5-SD, but I think that has more to do with the AR's ergos and versatility than it does with the Honey Badger specifically. Does that make sense? 😅
I love the MP5 system, but I feel like H&K should make a new 9mm submachinegun
@@RNKel1They did, it’s called the UMP and while it does have its fans the MP5 is just the more popular of the two.
@@RNKel1 To be fair, they've tried. It's just that customers would either prefer to stick with the MP5, or move on to the AR platform.
@@ReboyGTR yeah the UMP was made to be more economical being polymer simple blowback smg. The MP5 with the roller delay system is still superior but at a higher cost of manufacture.
7:36 you can see the round exit the barrel
Jeez, how in gods name did you see that.
For reference, go frame by frame on the shot taken at 7:37 and you can see the lead for one frame. Impressive!
I noticed during the first double tap drills that there appeared to be more recoil from the .300 blk, which makes sense, its more mass being pushed out of a lighter platform.
Loooove the audio on this one
The MP5SD was the second NFA machine gun I purchased back when Reagan was President. At the same time, I purchased a Colt M16A1. After converting the M16A1 into a M4 (collapsible stock, 14.5” threaded barrel, suppressor. In the which is better category, I much prefer the M16A1/M4 over the MP5
i hate u i wish i had either. i only got an am180.
4:06 St. Javelin ❤
You realize how genius Eugene Stoner's design is when you realize that a short barreled AR is the same length as, but lighter than, an MP5SD with the stock collapsed.
I approve of your patch
The mp5 is a 60 year old gun using ammo that is 123 yrs old, The Honeybadger on the other hand is a 13 year old weapon using 13 year old ammo. I am surprised it didn't do far better, given the associated costs. The other thing is the Mp5SD is designed primarily for burst firing not semi-auto.
Yeah, didn’t understand his fixation on semi-auto doubles if there are auto triplets
i guess the lesson here is that we already reached a pretty solid position in terms of ballistic and now we are in a bit of a plateau with barely any advancements, not much we can do about it imo until we get widespread caseless ammo
The other thing some would not take into considering is penetration (or over penetration in this case). Yes the 300 blackout honey badger is far better in every aspect in open space where you are expecting to deal with the enemy and enemy alone, however in an anti-terrorist situation, that can potentially lead to over penetration which could inflict secondary wounds to civilians. That’s where a 9mm holds advantage because it is far less likely to over penetrate than 300 blackout. But in an overall sense, yep honey badger is essentially better in every way than the MP5SD EXCEPT that scenario alone.
It's not just that 9 mm para is weaker, but the barrel is ported, that is, you're bleeding energy from an already weaker round. Of course the 300 Blackout is going to have much better terminal ballistics.
The thing is that the modified MP5 is firing standard velocity ammunition. The bleeding is bringing the muzzle speed down to subsonic velocity. This is seen as a feature with the model and allows the shooter to keep shooting subsonic even if all they can get hold of is standard 9mm. Problem is if you use subsonic ammunition it will bleed off some gas making it even slower. So the correct ammunition to use is standard loading normally supersonic ammunition.
The ports aren’t helping but the result is the same no matter what.
@@blahorgaslisk7763 I once saw a guy in competition using a borrowed MP5SD, he didn't know not to use his subsonic ammo and as a result that gun required almost half a magdump to knock down a popper plate. Was pretty funny to see, it was like someone nerfed his gun.
I think the problem is the .300 blackout just has a higher BC because it's heavier. There's not any way to get around that.
@@aloadofbollocks988 not just that but it shoots much heavier bullets in the subsonic velocity range. 9mm can probably push a 147 at ~1100 or so in a peppy loading. 300 blk can shoot a 240 at 1050 loaded down.
One factor you left out. Weight of ammunition. Can carry a lot more 9mm. Having said that, I built a 300 blk which is very similar.
I love, love, love when Ian does episodes like this. More please !
The answer you’re looking for is the Sig mcx rattler considering it’s already won all the socom contracts
Excellent video. Has anybody had any experience with the Sig Rattler? In either blackout or 5.56?
Yeah I’d like to see a similar comparison with the Rattler, and maybe another MP5 replacement like the APC-9 /APC-9SD. Make a whole series on “MP5 replacements” lol
Sig Rattler is much heavier than the Honey Badger.
@@chipsterb4946 I was looking at the 5.5” barreled rattler… it can’t be that heavy… lol. It’s only like 18” long if you detach the stock. It’s tiny. That being said I don’t know the weights on either one and have never actually handled one either. I was a Marine Infantryman. Had 22 months of combat over three deployments to Iraq. I used an M4/203 with Optic, light, and a pac(whatever) IR light/laser designator, occasionally a quadrant sight, plus sling. Weighed a metric 💩ton. 😂 I must say that weapons manufacturers have made some advances since my day.
@@jastrapper190 actually the Rattler is 6 pounds. I was surprised the first time I picked one up. Honey Badger is 4-1/2 lbs. However, I’d rather deal with Sig Sauer customer service every day of the week and twice on Sunday based on personal experience with both them and Q.
@@chipsterb4946 I guess to get the function they have in such a compact package it would have to be pretty dense. lol I’m trying to guess what my rifle in the Corps on my last deplyment weighed. Off the top of my head I wanna say the M4 with magazine was 8 pounds and an M203 was 3 or 4 pounds loaded with a HEDP. Plus aCog which probably was a pound or two. Say 12 pounds. Six pounds! That’s like a feather. 4 1/2 is ridiculous… that weight is for little girls! 😂🇺🇸
Great content! Question...since there is new technology in ballistics (I run 9mm G9 Defense, no endorsement) is there a true difference in terminal performance and long range accuracy between using the 300 Blackout sub suppressed vs 9mm EHP or JHP suppressed?
Those ricochet sounds are freakin sweet
Love the Saint Javalin patch.
You're right on all accounts, however they're designed for different roles in mind. Mp5 great for repelling down embassy walls and wiping out PLO members. It has a higher mag capacity which makes it better for sneaky squirrel in an urban setting.
The honeybadger is for sneaky squirrel kinda shite while in the suburbs or some Adobe village in Afghanistan or easten Ukraine. You'll be able to carry more ammo in a larger pack.
That why the sneaky squirrels asked for it to be designed. Different mission expectations. Thanx for the video, I'm impressed by how far you've gone with the "dreaded spinner". You've come a long way since you started, I just miss you and Karl working together. You two were like peanut butter and jelly.
This calls for something like [required hits on spinner] / [required time to spin it]. As an armchair general I don't really have a clue but would imagine that quite a lot of special forces scenarios are actually close quarter situations that profit immensely from the ability to do rapid follow up shots and not having to worry about ricochets and bullets going through walls.
Ian, while you were able to get more consistent doubles with the MP5 on the spinner, was it just the recoil, or was it also that you had more time to get the doubles due to reduced impact? It's hard to tell from the video.