MYTHBUSTING Bow EFFICIENCY! | Limbs wound IN or OUT?
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- Опубликовано: 19 мар 2022
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Every bow review should have a draw force curve portion. Showing the potential buyers some idea of how much resistance is in a draw.
I have been shooting a bow since I was 13 years old. Started back in 1999 and I have always bought this myth at face value and have worried about it to this day whenever I would take a turn or 2 out of my bow. Thanks for taking the time to research and put this one to bed. One less thing to worry about while shooting is always nice!
Great info, Thanks. I've always been of the old-school thinking that closer to peak weight the bow was more efficient and shot better... I think it would be very helpful if you did a video of old school to new school changes since a lot of people came up in the 80s and 90s with old-school knowledge and thoughts. Kind of compile everything together in a quick 5-minute video.
Thanks again for your knowledge!
You should try this again with Mathews Switch weight mods. From what I’ve been told, the whole reason for using switchweight mods is efficiency.
Thanks, I needed this for my confidence on my bow choice.
This was very nicely done. I'm looking forward to what you'll be able to do once you've got your shop up and running for a year or so.
Thank you for making this video! Been a question of mine for a while.
Nice vid Nate. This plays well for those wanting to grow into a bows potential. Start with it wound out and work your way into it.
Draw force curves are such a valuable tool. I know looking at your graphs I'd really like the draw on that bow. I really wish reviewers would publish them more often like they used to
As always, great video and info! Thanks and keep I'm coming.
Very informative video m8. Keep up the great work 👍
Awesome video, I’ve been questioning this myth for a long time! Great work man
Very happy to see you making draw force curves now too. To make comparisons of DFCs in the future, you should plot multiple curves on the same graph. Easy to do on Excel
Can you also start including DFCs in your bow reviews each year?
I gotta say man, as a bowshop worker, thank you for fighting the good fight on behalf of all of us in the industry 🙌
Brilliant Brilliant video. Super helpful! Thank you
The Martin Jaguar brings back some memories, first couple deer I ever got were with a Jaguar youth model, awesome bow back in the day
Totally brilliant video! I'm now confident that my 70 lb (max) bow will be fine at 60 lb. Thank you so much. I come from a family of English teachers, so I trust your information!
I love this video. Did you by chance test the speed with a wide variety of arrow weights? Is there any chance the bow is less efficient with different arrow weights in either configuration? Maybe a good follow up video would be on bow efficiency with different weight arrows to see if the bow can maintain efficiency when poundage is turned down as opposed to fully engaged limbs. You always here people say “this bow is very efficient with heavy arrows”. Love the myth busting videos, well done.🤷♂️
Wow whata video. Thank you for this dude. I recently dropped the lb from 70 to 60 due to really being fatigued after 70 arrows during practice. 60 feels like cake but i had this “myth” in my head the entire time. I can put this to rest now 😊
Forgot, normally shoot 70 lb, because of my torn labrum I've reduce to 62 lb and was getting ready to buy new 60lb limbs for my ventum 33, now I think I'll just wait. Thanks teach
Oh Yeaaaa! See I knew you was the one to watch! This actually answers some of the questions I asked you about in the email. Or at least addresses the matter. All these other channels just tryin to be the next Bill Dance. Lol
Now I just have to connect the dots!
😶 ....this is my serious face.
i'm loving the quality content. i think Athens is an underrated brand
Mathews vertix owner here. Recently went from 70lb 85% let off to 60lb with 80% let off. I can definitely say the draw cycle is far smoother than when I just backed out the limb bolts.
Great video as always. I personally would go for the 70lb limbs with good limb stops and back them out a couple turns. Just to have that little bit of wiggle room. To go from turkey to elk and having the ability to go up passed 60lbs to maybe 63lb range for the elk would be awesome. No need to shoot turkey at 60lbs.Or 45lbs for that matter.
I have a Mathews v3 31 when I first got it I had the 70 pound switch weights and the limbs backed out to 60lbs. After a few months I turned it up to 70. I noticed my anchor point felt different and the string tension was different.
When I worked at an archery shop in 2009, I played around with the (then) new Bowtech Destroyer 350s in 60# max and 70# max. The 60# bow maxxed out at 62#, so I backed down the 70# bow to the same draw weight. Then, I took a 385 grain arrow and shot it from both bows through a chronograph. Both bows were set up exactly the same. The 70# bow dropped to 62# shot the arrow 3 fps faster than the 60# bow maxxed out at 62#. My hypothesis is that backing out the 70# limbs increased the drawlength by 1/4", thus giving the 3 fps advantage, since I never put each bow in the drawboard to measure the actual drawlengths. I bought the 70-pounder and kept it at 65#. I then bought the Limited Edition and did the same. Both bows shot great, but the LE's limbs started to delaminate just this past year, so I upgraded them to 65# Barnsdale limbs. It still shoots great and is a keeper for me for sure. I'll be looking at getting a set of 65# Barnsdale limbs for my first Destroyer in the coming weeks to get it ready for hunting season. Can I come to PA and hunt with you?
You win Internet Nerd of the Day! This was awesome, man!
Thank you for this. Geez finally can settle this one
Awesome video. That Vista tho... 😍
I think the draw force curve will depend on the cam profile, so at 60lb and 32" draw length with the same bow there shouldn't be any difference in the DFC. I've always thought the statement for cranking the limbs down tight was for consistency and accuracy and keeping all parts of the bow nice and tight. Less chance for the limbs to flex at the pocket if they are tight in the pockets.
Thank you for putting that old myth to rest! RIP!
If I'm remembering right, Hoyt was the first manufacturer to make limb pockets like that.
Although the data may be negligible-
When you back out limb bolts you fundamentally change the bow specs.
ATA changes, timing can change, draw length increases…
As a physics student, i can say that on PRIME bows it would absolutely drop efficiency (Centergy design).
But maybe not so much on other Centre-string companies.
My next question to you would be- why do companies bother with 10 pound limb options?
My final question pertains to the intentions of the manufacturers…
Would running your limbs backed out put to much pressure on the remaining thread count of the bolt?
Cheers and thanks for the video
I love the chrisfix reference
Dude has saved me thousands on car repairs 😁
Crazy how much archery tech has changed and removed lots of myths.
I listened to the RF on a podcast and hes retracting some arrow weight suggestions for whitetail deer and saying 500gr is an adult arrow.
I have always thought RF was overboard on his 600-plus grain weight idea. I have used two blade heads for years with nearly every deer got a pass thru at 450 grains on average arrow build. I have hit a couple of front leg bones but still killed the deer. Hitting the thinner part of the scapula poses no issues. 60#'s @ 27 1/2" dl. I have killed pigs with this same set up. A lot of the hits have the sticking out both sides but not what is called a pass thru with the arrow in the dirt. Maybe I need to go to 500 or 525 grains? See if that would get me a hog pass thru?
I've used a 425gr arrow for everything from northern Wisconsin swamp donkey whitetail bucks to Russian boars, Bears & elk - for over 20 years.... .. No need to change up from what works
Can you send a link to that podcast?
Deer are pretty lightly built animals. When I was growing up a common bow used for hunting was a 50# recurve. They used cedar arrows and most of them used two blade broad heads. I don't know what the weight of the arrows was as no one weighed them back then (at least no one I knew) and I'm sure they were only going around 200 fps or less. However they got many complete passthroughs even on Moose. Heavy but slow arrows must work.
I currently have a 2008 60# compound and, for my 1st archery black bear hunt in 2009, I was shooting 700+ grain arrows (I shoot full length arrows due to my draw length) with a two blade broad head. I shot my black bear at 30 yards. It was spot and stalk and I was aiming for his chest but due to buck fever, nervousness etc I missed and hit him in right where the neck and chest/torso meet. I broke two of his neck vertebrate and my arrow stopped at the fletching. Excellent performance.
As the RF says, animals move, shit happens that's why one should build their arrows for a plan B scenario. I've seen videos of deer hit right in the spine with a fast and light weight arrow and the arrow bounced off and the deer ran away. I've also seen many videos of deer shot with fast, light weight arrows and the penetration was only six or seven inches. The deer died but man, that's horrible penetration!
No matter what weight arrows we shoot we should all use arrows heavy enough (450, 500, 550 grains or heavier etc.) that if the animal moves or we hit it wrong it's still going to penetrate enough to kill it effectively.
RF is like the guy who thinks only .45 cal can get it done and 9mm is for wimps. He's an idiot.
Thanks for saving me some money!
Interested video. Good info 👍. How’s the shop coming along
Update video in the coming weeks!!!
The brace height and draw length would increase when the limbs were backed out on the older bows with a conventional limb design due to the limb geometry. Even if it had adjustable pockets, the brace height and draw length would still increase. Also, your active draw length would increase a little when at full draw compared to rest at brace height.
What is the results of the 70 pounds limbs at 70 pounds shooting 5 gpp compared to the 60 pounds limbs shooting 60 pounds at 5gpp? With the same draw length.
Brace height still slightly changes with current bows. Check your strip stop spacing after backing your bow out a few turns...
How much does adjusting the draw length affect efficiency, speed, etc?
Can you do a video explaining parallel vs past parallel with examples? I keep seeing everyone talk about it but haven’t ever seen it defined.
if the limbs, whilst strung, curve back toward each other at the axle end then they would be considered "past parallel".
Great video. Is this the same for changing mods like on the Mathews V3X. 65 lb mod cranked back to 60 lbs vs a 60lb mod with limbs maxed out?
Leave it to you to ask the question I wanted to have answered before I made this video 😂
I max mine out regardless!!
Sounds like the 70 lowered to 60 has a longer power stroke, which can easily make up the speed, also did you measure the draw length, likely a little longer on the 70 turned down. But not a drastic difference most likely!
Nope. Both measured 30.75" exactly.
How about noise?
G'day mate, I have question for you, my d loop is leaning left and when I hook on it twists the string, will this affect anything????
Nope! Shoot away
So I have a 27 inch draw length. Have you ever looked at the efficiency of a bow with a cam that the longest DL is 27" verses the same bow with a cam that has the shortest DL at 27"?
Yup! Video in the coming weeks
1. "more" parallel limbs doesn't mean automatically that there is more pretension - the pretension of the limbs depends solely on how much energy the manufacture wants to store in the draw cycle from the beginning.
2. if the particular bow (not every bow behaves the same way, as such the testing with the Athen is only anecdotal) has a very low pretension, there could be indeed more vibration (lower pretension allows the limbs to move more easily in the rest position) if the poundage is not maxed out. More vibration usually indicates more losses respectively less efficiency.
3. Bottom line: while your postulate seems to be correct for your Athen, there will be very likely other bows from other manufacturers out there that would proof the opposite.
1. It might not be automatic, but holy crap does it help.
2. You see a modern bow (past 5 years) especially in the hunting world that was a strong seller that DIDN'T have parallel or past parallel limbs? Pretension has been pretty consistent amongst manufacturers for years now.
3. Bottom line: buy me more bows and different limbs sets and I'll do all the testing you want.
@@averagejackarchery IMO it is easer to remove hand shock for bows with parallel limbs - less impact in horizontal direction as the mass (limbs, cams) neutralize themself moving more in vertical opposite directions, so again, nothing to do with manipulating the pretension. Higher pretension in most modern bows is due to the "need (???) for speed" requiring to pack as much spring energy under the draw cycle curve as possible, hence you want use every inch of the DL to built up this energy.
Most of the modern target bows on the other hand still don't show such extreme parallel limb design (exception: Mathews) - usually they also have a lower poundage which helps with hand shock here, and using the mass of extreme stabilizers explains somehow that the focus isn't necessarily on minimizing hand shock and vibrations for the bare bow.
wrt Mathews: now I'm well aware that Mathews is very smart wrt generating $$$ for every bow component they can sell as an extra, nevertheless I still would like to see a similar test that compares 2 Mathews with the same poundage, where one bow uses the switch modules while the other one has the poundage adjusted with the limb bolts. (I shoot a Traverse, so can't test it out myself).
I don't want to pick a fight, but I believe that calling your vid "Myth Busting Bow Efficiency" using only one anecdotal data set is a little bit exaggerated - nevertheless I appreciate your content 👍.
@@averagejackarchery I had a second look at your charts - it seems that indeed you get some gain in DL with the weaker limbs, which seems plausible as a weaker limb needs further bending to achieve the same peak poundage (or you have to change modules or the whole cam) - while the gain is minimal, it still would add energy under the draw curve. I think there is actually a feature in Excel that allows to calculate the area under a curve - would be interesting to see how the calculated areas (= integral --> energy) compare.
What are your thoughts on efficiency as it pertains to arrow weight and bow design!?
Every. Setup. Is. Different. That's my thoughts.
@@averagejackarchery
More technical data from manufacturers would be nice.
So would it be better if I go down to 60 instead of staying at 65, I have a species ev with the 55-70 lbs limbs. I got a 26 draw length but due to my short draw length I'm losing some speed, I can pull 65 easily but I'm more comfortable at 60, I shoot a 300 spine with 9.3 grain PI gold tip hunter pro with 100 grain insert and 125 grain broadhead with lumenocks. Do you think at 60lbs I'll be ok with the speed and energy? Or should I stick with 65 for the extra umph for speed
Either is totally fine.
ok so 12 time the average lbs divided by the power stroke = Potential energy ?
What about differences in respect to string tension? I've heard that letting the bow down decreases the tension on the string making it more susceptible to string pressure
Both set ups were at 60 pounds.
@@shanerRC understand that I've heard backing 70 to 60 decreases string tension.
String pressure is measure at full draw, not brace. The end poundage there was nearly identical, if not actually more for the 70 wound out. It made no difference for holding weight.
@@averagejackarchery ok thank you.
Calculate the area below each draw cycle curve. How close is that calculation?
I mean....this is "Average Jack" channel here. I leave the fancy math to Dr. Sellers at UMD.
@@averagejackarchery nooooo.. That area would give numbers to compare. Then, we can unequivocally say there is X amount of PE with 60# limbs, and there is X amount of PE with 70# backed out to 60#.
Have him do the fancy math!
I know youre an Elite guy but can you talk about APA bows at all? I recently went to the local outdoorsman show here in town and visited their booth. I had never heard of them before. They seem to do things totally different and buiild some wicked bows. But I cant find much on them anywhere online. And by that I mean comparred to all the other big bow brands
I can, yes! APA is a Canadian company and therefore not as much American press. They build their bows more on the funky innovation you're referring to, which is definitely unique. Their main problem is most of their bows of the past have been built for speed more than comfort, which made their shooting experience outweigh the benefits of the gadgets.
@@averagejackarchery I asked their salesman at the booth what some detractors or complaints were about the bows but he of course said nothing. Their 2020 bow apparently won the paralympics that year. Thoughts on no cam tilt adjustment, mass transfer module, cam lock so no bow press, and quick easytop to bottom cam timing on the 2022 bows? Even the dropaway string pulls from the center of the limb unlike my bear... Im just trying to figure out why theyre not more popular. Thanks for the response eh?
@@Kartyman550 My king Cobra wanted to rip your arms off... No advertising, no support & they don't pay people to shoot their bows and promote. If they made their bows with a Bowtech RPM Insanity type of cam + similar deadlock technology & a bear archery price range - would be a very killer bow....!!!!
@@thistledewoutdoors3331 THATS WHAT I WAS BANGING ON ABOUT. I kept asking why they dont have a starter bow. I know they have youth bows but thats not what I meant. I likened it to Tesla with their roadster realiizing they needed a model 3 for the every man. They need one as well not just high end expensive. And why not advertise and pay to shoot and and and....Like I was so shocked I hadnt heard of them.
4 turns only got a 70lb Vista 35 down to 65lbs when i was trying one out...
I used a scale! Worked for me....
@@averagejackarchery seemed odd to me. Was at my local pro shop, Tried a 50lb peak as well, was measuring 51lbs and all the way down was 43lbs. Ended up ordering a 2023 peak 38 with 60lb limbs!
I've heard, "Heavier Arrow Makes The Bow More Efficient", what do you think about that
I can 100% attest to a heavier projectile being able to "absorb" more energy from a bow to make it quieter and more vibe-free. Absolutely. The trick to that is the bell curve for when you start seeing diminishing returns on weight changes per archer and bow setup. For some setups, 400 grains is a heavy arrow, but super light for others.
that's the reason why you can't use an arrow below the 5 grain per pound threshold as you would otherwise dryfire the bow. Well, you can, it is a free country, but it is not advisable as the energy has to be absorbed by something, otherwise it would destroy the equipment parts (pending on DL and poundage first the strings / cables, then cams and limbs).
Obviously, using a 2 kg heavy arrow - while very efficient wrt KE losses - would come with the downsides of very heavy speed losses. I try to keep my arrows in a 5.5 to 6.5 GPP window - at 5.5 GPP you may already compromise on the lifespan of limbs and cam bearings - especially at a maxed out DL!!! - if you shoot a lot of arrows as the specs of some bow manufacturers are somehow overoptimistic and they don't reference the 5 GPP threshold to the DL (which IMO they should!).
What about the saying that you shouldn't crank limbs all the way down, they should be at least 1/4 turn out from "tight"? I've heard this repeated a million times but haven't seen any concrete evidence to support.
There's not one shred of evidence to prove it, nor have I had a SINGLE bow shipped from the factory to the shop that didn't come wound in tight to the riser.
@@averagejackarchery that’s what I figured, thanks for the clarification!
I think you can do efficiency test for bows with draw lengths at the different end of the spectrum. That is, say two cams set at 28" draw length, yet one of it at the end of the draw length adjustment (normal and/or short draw cam), while the other is at the beginning of draw length adjustment (long draw cam).
That might already be in the editing bay.....
@@averagejackarchery that's great. So does the feel (not efficiency, as it will be better covered in the said video) between those two cams different despite being set to the same draw length?
All data and explanation will be in due time, in that video 😁
Why is it that I've never seen a tech "square" the bow? Physics can only benefit you if you've built on a solid foundation. Is your bow squared? If not can the energy be used to optimum efficiency?
I've wanted to speak with an open minded tech about this for some time. Every bow I've ever checked is out of square. Reach out if ya wana talk about it, I really would love to see what you discover about it.
Out of square? Do you watch my other content? Arguably some of the best maintained and tuned bows on the entire RUclips scene.
@@averagejackarchery yes I've watched them all. I've been doin all this since 83. Bare with me here, I'm mot talking about squaring knock position and such. Im referring to the measurement from axel center to the limb bolt thread inset.
Data is the answer until it's not. That hasn't happened yet.
Facts not media... I mean fiction! :D
Ya but what if Nate is a member of the archery efficacy illuminati
That would be HILARIOUS
Oh, wait.
ok this is what I hate when I watch videos to learn something new, which theres nothing that can be done about it but... Trying to absorb your life time of knowledge and experience in just 15 min. It just cant be done.
For example: Draw force curve... what?
So my answer to Not understanding wtf youre talking about is... Man yall are overthinking this, Im just gona assume and expect everything to go how I want it to.
😏... this is my What can go wrong, face.
Ha
The amount of guys who dont understand this blows my mind!! Mathews guys are really bad because they have all these mods and they argue you just need to buy another mod.. just another way to sell more Mathews stuff!