Training VLOG #21: Prehab, programming, gymnastics, power cleans, and more!
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- Опубликовано: 13 июл 2024
- Time Stamps:
02:30 Prehab
06:45 Can I do power cleans in The Bridge?
12:00 How do I figure out if the program I'm on is good?
26:00 A question for the viewers!
Injury Stuff:
injuryprevention.bmj.com/cont... www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2...
www.painscience.com/articles/...
Livestream 7: • Barbell Medicine Lives...
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I owe you a beer Doc, I have been benching for years without leg drive and in an instant your cue to push the heels toward the bench clicked! Her come some PRs baby! Cheers! Love your content
I’d submit a form check but I need to put about 90lbs on each lift first lol.
Trick question: not measurable since you’re asking to compare two different movements
Thanks man great video!
Would be great if the questions could be timestamped! Love your work Dr
Hey Dr. F., ran the GPP template and lost 4 inches off my waist. My lifts didn't go down too much, either, from using the Bridge 1.0 and 2.0. Thank you!
BBM is simply awesome
The lowbar guy must produce more force in the z direction to move the 500 pound barbell by definition but deciding which lifter is better at force production in general is anybody's guess because two different lifts are being compared. Now if the high bar guy could only high bar squat 225 and the low bar guy could low bar squat 500 pounds we might make an educated guess and assume the low bar guy has greater force production abilities but 475 is too close to 500 to really know.
Since you asked about who generated more force production in general, then the individual who squatted 500lbs would be my pick. But with that said, I think if you were to be more specific, i.e. whether or not the 500lbs low bar squatter would be able to squat more than 475 lbs on the high bar, then I would not be so confident with my choice. Although both are squats and generally use some of the same musculature, there would be other factors that come in the play, like neuromuscular efficiency in the movement, skill, etc.
Hay, man. Great content as always! Don't want to speak for everyone else, but I'm pretty sure like me, all of us really enjoy the long training vlog videos. You can stick to 35min +, we don't mind. :p
If it's a question of force production, it's a question of impulse: how much does the momentum change, in how much time? There's about a 5% difference in weight between 475 and 500, so it would require a 5% difference in time in order to produce the same force. Let's say both lifters move at the same constant rate during the ascent and descent, and it takes 0.5 seconds for the 500 squatter to decelerate, reverse the motion, and accelerate. If the 475 squatter takes only 0.475 seconds, the peak force output will be roughly equivalent.
If this is supposed to be a question of work, then it's the same, but the 5% difference in weight would be made up by a 5% difference in distance (instead of time). If the 500 squatter's bar travels 2 feet, and the 475 squatter's bar travels 2 feet and 1.2 inches, the work done will be roughly equivalent.
For high bar vs. low bar to matter, it has to affect either acceleration (I don't think so) or the distance the bar travels (maybe a bit?).
Hey Jordan and BBM Crew - great content as allways I have been wondering What your opinion is on the cue of bending the bar on the Way Down in the bench press to establish elbow position ? Its not talked about in your bench press prescription video whitch i have now watched at least a dozen times. Your information is great and has helped me alot thank you very much
I don't think it's a good cue.
It is the case that more force production is necessary to produce the movement of 500 lbs than 475 lbs over the same range of motion. However, the fact that two movements are being compared makes the answer more complex. Differing mechanics and moment arms, and possibly ROM of the low bar and high bar squat will inevitably mean that, even assuming both lifters have identical bodies and perfect form and equal bar speed and equal neurological development and the same kind of shoes and environment and drank the same kind of coffee that morning etc., different amounts of force would be required to move the same weight (for example, if they both tried to lift 475 lbs with their respective lift). For this reason, I believe the nuanced answer is that we don't know which lift requires the most force produced at the level of the muscle, except for perhaps in a physics class where the question is answered in theory.
Edit: This pertains to the sum forces produced at the level of the muscle.
Is programming good? 1) does it comply with the volume landmarks yes or no. 2) is it within the rep/intensity ranges for either your goal of hypertrophy or strength? 3) are there things outside the program which you are doing to sabotage yourself.... I think if you ask those things and can answer you are good.
Hmmm I would say that we can't say for sure who's the stronger squatter between the high and low bar squatter since we're comparing two different movements
So I just ran the bridge 2.0 and made good progress except in the press lol. I’m planning on going into the military next summer so I need to get better at running so I want to run the gpp endurance template next. However, I assume that program will have less stress than the bridge so won’t I not make strength gains? Perhaps I should run the hypertrophy template but maybe add an additional gpp day? My goals are to get stronger but also to improve my 3mile run time. Your thoughts please good sir.
The guy that lifts more weights is stronger every time period. The lady mirin when Jordan was pause DL priceless
Hi, Just checking on how to send a form check video...you mentioned File Share or We Share (couldn't find We Share). I sending via an email attachment too much hassle Jordan?
I would say the 500lb lowbar squat is the better display of strength, not only is the absolute load on the bar higher, but the weight has to be stabilized by the back much more than in a high bar squat.
Fahve hundered low bar.
Depends on how we are defining strength. If this is a powerlifting meet, then the guy with the 500 lb low bar is stronger because we are defining strength as the amount of weight moved through a pattern which we deem to be called a squat. If, however, we are talking about ‘general strength,’ the question becomes more difficult. It is possible that the high bar squatter’s muscles are capable of producing more force but the ‘weaker’ lifter squats more weight because he’s 1. Better trained (in a strictly neurological sense) or 2. Using a more mechanically efficient movement pattern.
Question. What is the difference between hypertrophy training and strength training and is there actually a difference between the two?
You mentioned getting stronger as useful, but that you would probably skip the prehab stuff. However, don't things like facepulls make your shoulder's external rotators stronger? And if they do, assuming the progression is reasonable, would they not be useful for injury prevention?
I already have a naked strip in my shins from DLs, and using soccer socks. Don't know how Austin does it without socks or powder.
Goddam that fresh fade tho
Force is a product of acceleration and mass, so it would actually depend on HOW FAST each squatter moved the bar. If it was the same bar speed at all points in the lift, then the low bar squatter would have it simply for the heavier weight. I would put money on the high bar squatter's quads being bigger, though ;)
Short answer to the question: Your low-bar back squat strength is only comparable to other low-bar back squat strength. You can't compare that to your high-bar strength.
Longer answer to the question: Well, we can compare force production. Let's assume athletes both have 450mm long femurs, that the high-bar squatter brings their knees forward 200mm horizintally in front of the bar, and that the low-bar squatter brings their knees forward 150mm horizintally in front of the bar. The high-bar squatter lifts 215.5kg and the low-bar squatter lifts 226.8kg. Peak torque oocurs when the femur is horizontal. (For simplicity, analysis ignores the lifters' bodyweights.)
High-bar peak knee torque: 215.5 kg * 9.81 N/kg * 0.2 m = 422.81 Nm
Low-bar peak knee torque: 226.8 kg * 9.81 N/kg * 0.15 m = 333.74 Nm
High-bar peak hip torque: 215.5 kg * 9.81 N/kg * 0.25 m = 528.51 Nm
Low-bar peak hip torque: 226.8 kg * 9.81 N/kg * 0.3 m = 667.47 Nm
So the 475lbs high-bar squat has demands greater force production in the knee extensors, while the 500lbs low-bar squat demands greater force production in the hip extensors, and the highest demand on any join is hip extension in the low-bar example. We certainly can't call either one stronger though, as, even ignoring the skill aspect of a lift, the high-bar squatter's hip torque will certainly be sub-maximal, whereas the low-bar squatter is more likely to be close to maxing out both their hip and knee strength (if this is a 1RM). So for all we know, the high-bar squatter may also have the hip strength required to low-bar squat 600+lbs!
weighted pullups though?
The force produced against gravity is (assuming equal acceleration) higher for the low bar squatter. So he is stronger. Whether this means he can squat more than 475lbs high bar is unknown. Whether his 500lb low bar squat is a more productive training stress for general strength is unknown. Would you agree?
However, to balance the bar over mid-foot, the high bar squat has to have either a more open hip angle or a more open knee angle at parallel than the low bar squat. Therefore my questions are;
1. Would less ROM around the joints (due to being more open) make the high bar squat require less force production? If so, why do power-lifters predominantly select high bar?
2. Does the decreased ROM around the joints suggest that less motor units are recruited (I assume motor units are specific to specific joint angles)?
3. Someone might respond to 2 by saying that you can go deeper when high bar squatting than low bar squatting. Is this true, and is it due to hamstring extensibility?
The 500 low bar squat, no doubt.
Auto focus keeps resetting on your hands when they're in front of your face lol
How can I get a form check buddy ?
I think a 475 high-bar is probably more impressive than a 500 low-bar given the disparity between most people’s squats, but of course the correct answer is there is no answer, both are demonstrations of specific force production
stretching doesnt work? for what exactly strength and recovery or at all? i find it hard to believe that people who can scratch their back with their feet are able to do so without training to do so. also i would like to hear what you have to say about the vertical diet, those who do it ( although antecdotal ) report great results from it.
Can't compare the force production because those are two different contexts. It's like saying one guy bench presses 315lbs and the other guy overhead presses 225 lbs and asking which one demonstrated more force production, different contexts, different skills.
We can't know which one is stronger; from the given information.
since the highbar relies on less muscle (mostly quads) to perform the lift I might say highbar. however, it would be interesting to know what each lifting could perform if the lifts were reversed
The high bar does not use less muscle mass than the low bar squat.
Force production is mass times acceleration. Even though the guy squatting 500 moves more mass, the other guy who squats 475 could have a larger acceleration, so we don't know the answer. Could be any one of them, or they could even be producing the exact same force. Tell that to uncle Rip...
like another Jordan would say, "well it depends on what you mean by (insert word here, injury in this case)"
31:20 “whatever those ‘things’ weight.” May I cast my vote for always referring to them as: Jordan’s Barbell Dingle Dongles?
Matt Wypijewski approved
Ooh I like that. My ballot says “Danglies”. May daddy pick the best one lol jk
Granted both persons are of roughly equivalent anthropometrics, the person who low bar back squats 500lbs is producing more force in totality (especially at the hip), but the person who high bar back squats is sharing more of the load at the knee and will probably have to produce more force at the knee extensors.
Given that their are different joint angles for the lifts, how can you be sure that the 500lb squatter is indeed producing more force than the 475lb squatter?
Admittedly, this is a difficult question that has me thinking. I asked a similar question at a SS seminar... "How can we be sure that the low bar uses more muscle mass than the high bar". The answer I got was something along the lines of - If more weight is being moved in the low bar squat, then more muscle is being utilized to move that weight.
I'm not sure things are that simple.
Low bar squat since more weight is being moved
You can add Power Cleans to any program by being too lazy to bend over to get the last few plates off a bar after deadlifts/rows. Pull a few plates off, roll it over to a rack with hooks on the outside, clean it and then rack it.
has anyone ever got a pinching sensation in their knee when flexing their quads for OHP?
The high bar squatter is stronger in the high-bar squat and the low-bar squatter is stronger in the low bar. We can't make any assumptions about overall strength because strength is specific.
nonamebrandFTW i would agree with this.
Lifter #2 and #3 could not have had more anatomically different builds. Lifter #2 has a very upright torso due to the long torso/short femur relationship. For those of us with long femurs, I have witnessed a tendency to drive the hips back and get too bent over coming out of the hole. Have you also noticed this? Why do you think that is?
I think lifters with longer femurs and/or shorter torsos have a more horizontal back angle when squatting. I don't know what "too bent over" necessarily means, but I'd prefer if the knees stayed in position during most of the lift.
I suppose being "too bent over" is subjective, however if the hips fly back out of the hole, causing a sudden change in back angle, and the knee extensors are not able to properly contribute to the lift, one could describe that as a form discrepancy.
Pullups and chinups are not great for hypertrophy? For biceps it makes sense, but what about lats hypertrophy? Would you argue that barbell rows or lat pulldown produce less global fatigue than pullups?
It's easier to overload those exercises. Your ability repeat the same technique quickly breaks down.
I think he is specifically talking about body weight pull ups. Which makes sense. You would not see great leg gains from body weight squats, right? Well same thing works for pull ups.
@@Edgarisftw That's not a good comparison. The muscles involved in the pull up are much smaller, and fatigue much faster, than the muscles involved in a Bodyweight squat. Pull ups are fine for hypertrophy, especially if you add band support to increase the volume.
The 500pound low bar squatter and the 475pound high bar squatter are at the same strength level.
.......no
Evan Golebiewski wouldn’t someone who max’s out at about 500 for low bar probably max out a little bit less for high bar?
Same height does not necessarily dictate the same lengths of their bodily segments. As well as we do not know who has practiced which lift the most, the 500lb low bar, minght only practice low bar so he has the requisite skill to lift that weight in those positions, yet may not be as adept at pushing his knees forward to stay as upright in the Hi-Bar position... And vice/versa. All in all it is an impossible question to answer definitively in the context of the human organism as we are so vastly different individually. There are way to many factors that we do not know, and likely cannot measure. Also if they are both squatting that much... who freaking cares, they both can produce lots of force, and are obviously fairly STRONG!
Is the answer about who is stronger nuanced? I have a feeling it might be nuanced...
Depends on what measurement of strength you're using.
Russell Sprouts I agree
The strength difference is unknowable. It would depend on how high the high bar is and how low the low bar is.
You can’t compare the squat variations as you stated that strength comparisons can only be made specifically between moves (low bar to low bar) . Apples to apples scenario
I would agree with this.
You need to produce more force to lift a heavier weight. At least if we assume that the bar speed is the same.
sumsar01 what if the joint angles or contraction types are different ? The former is in this example. The latter isn’t.
In answer to Jordan's question; I would say the person who squatted 500lbs, produced more force than the person who squatted 475lbs. As long as the range of motion was the same or very close, regardless of bar position. If I bench pressed 80kgs for a single. Then I decided to close grip bench press 80kgs for a single. That's the same force production, either though it would've felt harder using a close grip variation.
No. Close grip is longer range of motion= more work. Which is why its harder.
Edgarisftw you might be right. I guess that’s why we use rack pulls and board bench presses as assistance exercises.
What’s your take on the question?
@@markolive6070 Well I would say that the low bar squatter has a higher total force production. Higher weight and same rom= more work. The reason why you can use more force in the low bar squat is cause its more mechanical advantigous. Simply put: Its easier to create more force from that position. With that said, it does not mean that the low bar squatter is stronger. Cause the high bar squatter can not produce force as easily.
He said literally 5 seconds before that you cant compare them. Thats like comparing apples to oranges. How can you say someone who curls 100 is stronger than someone who glute thrust 300 for instance.
@@Tupat95 You can't say which one is stronger. But you can say that the low bar squatter has a higher force production. The same way you can say that the person who glute thrusted had a higher force production than the guy who curled.
500pound low bar. Force against an external resistance.
Keegan what if we all agreed that strength is the display of force production in some form?
Barbell Medicine more force required to move the 500 pounds though right? So would it be safe to assume that all other variables (body weight, RPE, and more) the same the low bar was the stronger squat?
So, you can’t compare high bar squats to low bar squats. You can’t compare conventional deadlifts to sumo deadlifts. I don’t even want to mention pressing.
Not thinking about Powerlifting, because sports are all unfair anyway and it’s not something I even do.
Purely from a Strength and Conditioning standpoint; which versions of the lifts are better?
Can we work out, which lifts we are better suited to?
Is the answer, it doesn’t matter?
Should anyone ever do any yoga for any reason other than it could be a placebo?
500 guy
500! From a squatting point of view bar position is only a detail. Maybe you shoud've nuanced your question by adding a ''stonger for:..." If it's about squattin' than the 500 guy is stronger.
I’m gonna guess what Jordan’s answers were on the topics from the title without watching the vid. Let me know how I did.
Prehab - “sure waste 30 minutes of your life if it gives you a placebo effect before training.”
Programming - “why do TM??? It’s less volume than SS!!”
Gymnastics - “you can’t recover from both gymnastics and lifting, but what ya gonna do? Not lift?”
Powerclean - “its good for power development, but more interestingly, it’s nuanced.”
Let me know how I did
I expected better from you. I give you a C for effort.
Barbell Medicine 🙁
The cam getting out of focus is kinda annoying
Yea I got a new lens and forgot to put it in manual focus.
I think the answer you’re fishing for is that they aren’t comparable because you can’t compare two different movements to each other. I would disagree because you can and plenty of studies have and I don’t think difference of high/low bar is sorted into a different motor program or anything from a neurological standpoint or too much from a muscular tension standpoint. If you want to compare the force production of the two, you just take a subject, have them do two different exercises on a force plate, and compare the outputs. Given all things are the same (to include how much the weight is accelerated) but not the weight, it’s the person squatting more weight.
Plenty of studies have done what? exactly? High and low bar are definitely different movements, and based on motor learning data they would be different patterns with some overlap. Not sure what you mean from a muscular tension standpoint, as they are different. A force plate does not tell you the answer to this question.
Plenty of studies have compared two different exercises' force outputs. And that's kinda the point of the question. You specifically asked which produces more force and you can measure the force of different movements. Swinton et al, 2012 and Wretenberg et al, 1996 have published high vs low bar. A force plate would also not give you EMG readouts, but that's a subject I brought up. I'm not sure what motor learning data there is that proves they are different movements, but I'm skeptical they are so dissimilar. I haven't seen anything that says otherwise, but maybe I'm wrong.
Swinton is a biomechanical analysis on joint moments, not EMG or force production. Wretenberg's study I have only been able to read the abstract, as the original paper has not been available from the publisher to any of the academic institutions I've attended in the last decade. I actually don't know anyone who has read the whole paper, but yes there were force plates there. In any event, neither of these compare force outputs in a validated way, e.g. the same person doing the different movements who is either trained in both or untrained. A force plate cannot be used to ascertain muscular force production reliably between individuals with different movements btw (same as sEMG). In any event, motor learning evidence currently suggests different motor patterns exist for different forms of tennis racket movements, golf swings, and similar- all of which are more similiar to each other than HBBS vs LBBS IMO.
Barbell Medicine If you look at the figures in the Swindon paper you def see force-time curves. They are very similar and I’m not seeing anything that indicates that they really are so different other than we feel strongly about it. Motor learning evidence of different swings doesn’t really compare well in this case. In particular, I am not aware of anything that suggests the motor pattern between the movements we’re discussing are different. A fairer comparison would be the motor pattern of swinging a hammer held at the end of the handle vs taking a grip an inch above. All we’re going is changing the leverages by adjusting how we interface with the thing we’re applying force to by a couple inches. To go back to the question: you asked which produces more force and provided two examples. If you measure the ground reaction force, you’re measuring exactly what you’re asking for in this situation. Separate motor patterns, sEMG, and everything else aside, that’s how you measure force. All the artificial divisions we make between these movements aside, they will produce a force and those forces can differ. That’s kind of how the case has been built to use different exercises at different loads for different outcomes.
Mark Langley the force time curves do not answer the question nor do they display force plate data. I also disagree about the motor unit analogies you’re marking given my current understanding of these tasks. we are welcome to disagree, of course. I also think based on the question posed it cannot be determined who produces more force, not what the implications of such may be (probably minimal).
Literally speaking the force required to move 500lbs is more then the force required to move 475lbs, so I am going with the low bar.
James Valaitis nice logic where can I sign up for online programming
Strength is specific doe
He changed the question from strength to who put the most force into the bar. James is correct using the mathematical definition of force. It's probably harder to shift the weight with a high-bar position, and you're using different muscles groups at different ratios, but physics doesn't give a shit about that. Force = mass x acceleration.
Piñata Oblongata indeed. Which is why it can't be applied to see who is stronger
500 yo.
Low bar squatter is stronger
F=ma, but didn't say what planet.
500 squat is stronger
Low bar squatter
Answer: we don’t know.
high bar guy is stronger
why is the girl with the tramp stamp making a painful expression when looking at your deadlifts?
Probably looking at my face while I'm doing that.
Is programming good? 1) does it comply with the volume landmarks yes or no. 2) is it within the rep/intensity ranges for either your goal of hypertrophy or strength? 3) are there things outside the program which you are doing to sabotage yourself.... I think if you ask those things and can answer you are good.
F=ma, but didn't say what planet.