Boring a barrel blank.
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- Опубликовано: 29 авг 2024
- Hi. This is my first attempt at boring a barrel from the blank steel bar. Steel is 12L14 free machining steel, 31.75mm dia and is 30" (762mm) long. The bit is 1/2" O1 silver steel with a hardened and tempered D bit end. The starting hole was drilled and sized with a boring bar, then the long slow process of drilling the hole began. I could only cut 3mm at a time, before withdrawing the bit, cleaning and lubing it for the next cut. I was very relieved when the bit finally broke through and only 0.009" off centre! This will be the breech ennd if the barrel when it's fitted. Hopefylly it will be reamed to size the cut rifled to .54 cal.
Beautiful...good job. I really love watching the method behind it all
Thanks Eric.
I liked it, an excellent piece to show how its possible to drill barrels.
There are many keyboard pros here.. It's a shame.
Great informational video!
WW III, thanks. I like passing on skills. We have fitted it to it’s action and then machined the 8 flats to match. Still haven’t set up the rifling jig, but we’ll get there. 😊👋
Very interesting process , this was a pilot hole I take it, now you have a hole right through you can feed coolant in from the other end, if you have enough clearance around the cutting tip, you can always take a truing up skim along the outside if you want it to be concentric, although with just .009" your luck must have been in that day, you should have bought a lottery ticket as well ! Chris B.
Thanks Chris. Yes, the pilot hole, but I don't have a coolant pump on my lathe, so when I ream the hole it will be a slow process as well. I bought an adjustable hand reamer for it, but am waiting on the ball mould, so I can ream the bore for a tight fit on the bare ball. This barrel is going into a Ferguson type action, so no patch is required, or indeed possible.
Tony Small: Be very careful with the adjustable reamer ! I have had them suddenly seize solid, even with low revs and a lot of lube, I think the little blades pull themselves out and embed in the bore, spill boring might be a better way to go. Have you made the multi start breach thread yet ? Good to see you back !!
Ah, I will be doing it by hand, NOT under power. I made a pair of power reamers for the .408 barrel I made years ago. It took me ages and the finish was not very good. I have hand reamed a .50cal ML barrel, many moons ago and the finish was mirror like, so I'm hoping for the same here.
Yes, the threaded breech blocks have been done, but my lathe isn't geared for the 1" pitch, so I made it a1/4" pitch 4 start thread and it takes only three turns to expose the chamber. Not a problem with a sporting rifle, where the game will not be shooting back at us! :D
I did try and gear it up, ( I got a 25mm pitch, 13 start thread ) but the grooves weren't regular and I wasn't happy with the result. Got a much better mesh with this set up. I will try and shoot some video of the progress on my rifle.
It's good to be back on here. I was having trouble with uploading edited videos from my computer, but I have no trouble doing it from my iPhone.
Tony Small: Have you seen the videos on spill boring a barrel, they use a long rod with a pocket milled in it, like a rifling rod, then put it through with progressively more shims under the cutter, it gives a really good finish. The multi start thread is a problem if you do not have a 1" per inch feed, the secret to a even thread pitch is to use a chaser so you are cutting all threads at one pass, that was you stay in pitch spacing and it fits smoothly, but 3 turns is not a problem, I thought you would like the challenge of the 13 start thread ! At least you are working on one relatively small part, and not on the whole barrel, so any cock ups will be more easily rectified. Good Luck, and welcome back.
EF. Yes, I have seen that method, it being the original method for final reaming, but I haven't tried it.
We have a long way to go with these rifles and lots of work ahead. Cheers, Tony.
A gun drill will move off center up to .001 inch per inch of depth drilled, so with a 30 inch barrel you could be off .030 at the far end. That's why barrel OD's are turned after gun drilling
Exactly so. 😊
Yeah it makes it a pain in butt though to to chamber a large batch in a 4 jaw collect
Uhm, aren't you doing somethign very wrong if it wanders off by that much? When you use a purpose-built gundrilling machine, it shouldn't wander off by more than a few thou over a length of give or take 30". Turning the OD concentric to the ID afterwards isn't going to fix anything about the fact that the hole is still crooked, reaming it with a pulled reamer after the drilling would alleviate the deviation a bit but not by that much. For a length of 30" wanderring off more 5 thou or probably even less is unacceptable for a gunbarrel.
Sorry for the very dumb question: when turning the OD after drilling, how do you ensure that the "hole" is indeed concentric to the lathe ?
Do you simply use a chuck with four independant jaws and properly set the barrel according to measurements ?
@@lasaucissemasquee4421 turn between centers
Always wondered how such long/deep cuts were drilled through long blanks, at such extreme precision needed for a long rifle barrel.
Hi pr0xZen. I refer you to this article about the history. Interesting to note that the D bit had it’s roots in wood working. 😁
www.kays-dehoff.com/resources/history-of-gundrilling/
El Sciario. It is called a Gun Drill. It's a D bit in cross section and is self guiding. If started straight it will not deviate from the centreline.
So did you drill a center hole to get the D bit going? So with this type of drill you need to stop and extract the chips all the time. Instead of a continuous drilling operation of a gundrill that has an oil hole to flush the chips out.
Is there any difference in performance accuracywise between a D bit gundrill and a regular (oil aided) gundrill?
This seems to be handy if you cannot get your hands on a normal gundrill. It does seem to have a woble at the end of the rod when the bit is comming out. So its turning the OD down and reaming the barrel now right?
@@jeffjefferson2676 the D bit will work as good as the gundrill. The gundrill is just faster thanks to the chip groove and forced lube.
@@sammorgan31 yeah, because ive read that anything else than a gundrill will deviate if a hole is drilled deeper than 10 times the diameter in depth. so you want to use a gundrill. or drill with this and then true the outside to the inside if you still have some steel to take off the outside.
i think a d bit is a lot easier to produce than a gundrill. with short barrels like the ones used in pistols and smgs i can see it work. but rifle length barrels e.g 24". im not sure it that will end up straight. but maybe its good enough. if this works.. for a hobbyist this could be the thing you are looking for.
greetings,
jeff
Nice trick securing the tailstock to the carriage:)
Thanks. I learned that from my Toolmaker tutor. 😁
@@Afro408 And by the magic of modern tech, I learned it from you. Thanks man:)
@@AntiVaganza No worries! 👍 The fella who taught me did it differently. He fixed an inverted keyhole plate to the face of the tailstock, so that he had to lift the tailstock up and fit it over the head of a screw, fitted to the carriage frame. This allowed him to still be able to move the cross slide ( something I cant do with my bracket ) while the tailstock was engaged. He was producing hundreds of small brass spray nozzles on his little Myford bench lathe and in fact, these nozzles paid his lathe off in 12 months!
That's incredibly impressive, that you managed to drill 30 inches with only a 0,009 inch deviation! If you would have used a continous drill setup supported by bushings along the length of the gun drill, with a constant oil feed under pressure out of the gun drill to flush out any swarf you would have probably reduced the deviation to just 2 or 3 thou!
Thank you pieterveenders9793. As I've written before, after boring this barrel, I phoned a professional barrel maker friend of mine and asked him what his deep hole drilling machines accuracy was and he said that he would be very happy to get my .009" runout all the time. 😁
@@Afro408 did you do any stress relieving of the drilled blank afterwards, or send it off to a professional stress reliever? I hear that vibration stress relief is the hot new thing these days, especially for long cylindrical objects such as a barrel blank, and without the risk of warpage like traditional over stress relief. All you need is an electric motor of approximately 0,5-1 kW for an blank this size, with an offset weight on the axle to produce the vibrations, an accelerometer attached to it connected to a microcontroller board such as an Arduino and to programe the whole thing so it will gradually go from 0 to several thousand RPM at a slow enough pace and plot the accelerometer values against the RPM. Once it reaches resonance, it will show a large spike in the accelerometer, which is the RPM you want to remain at for approximately 2000 revolutions of the motor.
hi, I'm no machinist (I want to be some day :D) but I've been wondering about this - does the rotation of the stock keep the drill close to the centerline? Or is it all about how perfectly you start the hole?
Great video, thank you!
Hi TrisT. It’s possible that rotating the job and not the bit, helps, but getting an accurate start is the key with a D bit. D bits are very good at cutting straight holes. Modern Carbide D bits can cut a hole in one pass, to finished size and fine surface finish. I once drilled out an old 22-250 barrel, with an extended 1/2” twist drill and the resulting hole had a slight spiral to it. The spiral didn’t correspond with the original rifling twist, but was just the result of the bit trying to deviate, possibly because the cutting edges weren’t even. 🤷♂️ don’t know, but that rough drilled barrel shot a patched round ball into an inch at 75yds! 😁
Llll
A proper gun drill is self centering, and when used stationary in combination with rotating stock it should indeed stay very true.
Incrível! Kkkkk deve demorar bastante não é?!!! Este trabalho e feito com brocas errigada canhão! Sow de bola!
Edson Silvano. Thank you! 😁👍
you are the champion!
Hardly Dion5100, but thank you. 😊
Very good. And i heard Queen :) ✌️
Okan Dansuk. Thank you and yes, I listen to good music while I work. :)
Nice job. Can you make a video about rifling process?
Alex Kart, thank you. I will when I do it. Can’t rush these things. 😉😅
Is that the 13x40 gap bed central machinery lathe? I have the same lathe in my shop. I have a .54 caliber muzzleloader barrel to remove the rifling from for a shotgun project, I need to make a drill like that. Great video!
Ah, I don’t know, but this one is marketed as an AL 360. It has a gap bed and 36” between centres. Been a real workhorse for my gunsmithing and general machining. Check out the video on machining the horn on a small anvil. 😉
Great job! Does the dial indicator at the end of the video show that the bore isn't a true circle? Is that tolerance acceptable?
Thanks Spruce Bug. No, it indicates the runout of the bore from the center line and is quite low by industry standards. A well started D bit won’t deviate much at all. This bore was reamed out later to .525”, but I still haven’t gotten around to rifling it. 🤷♂️ I’m old and tired. 🤣
@@Afro408 how do you make the rifling.. also with the barrel spinning.?
@@andrejochimsen498 Not on this machine. Usually the barrel is clamped and unmoving. The rifling tool rotates slowly as it is drawn through the bore.
@@Afro408 do you need special steel for barrels
@@andrejochimsen498 Yes. For this barrel, which is for black powder only, I use 12L14 free machining mild steel, but all high pressure nitro powder barrels are either CrMo or stainless barrel steel. Different grades for different manufacturing methods as well.
Off center is not an issue at all if you start with a large enough blank OD. Will you be turning the OD between centers?
Hi jonnybarber. No it isn't and I have used the off centre end for the breech. Set it up so the bore and OD were sharing the offset. We will be using the fitted action to set the barrel up to machine the flats. Next video. 😊
10 minutes of my life I will never get back!
But who cares? 😉😁Thanks for watching. 👍🏼
@@Afro408 Well based on this video, I would say you obviously don't. LOL
quit being a spanner. the video isn't even 10m and nobody made you watch it.
Bugger off and go watch the kardassiens then.... Muppet!
hi Tony, thanks for sharing this work with us. Your video doesn't have a translation into my language, so it may be that you already talked about things in the video that I wanted to ask you about. However, if you have the patience to answer me, I will use a translator for my understanding. my doubts are: What barrel length? What caliber was it developed for? What barrel steel? Do you believe that with a D bit like this it is possible to drill a 20" barrel with this concentricity? I look forward to your responses and I also hope you share more of your ingenious work with us.
Hi Wesley. Thanks for the comment. I appreciate it. This barrel length is 32” and the caliber is .525” that is what it has been reamed to. The steel is 12L14, which is a lead bearing, free machining carbon steel. A 20” barrel would be no problem, but the secret is starting the bit with no runout. With this one I started the hole with a 31/64” twist drill, then bored the first inch of the hole to exactly the same size as the drill rod. If you do this, then you won’t have much runout at the other end.
I already have a .52cal muzzle loader that I made in the early eighties and it has a 24” barrel. I didn’t know much about making a barrel, or even heard of a D bit and used a shot out 22-250 Varmint weight barrel that a friend of mine gave me. For that one I just welded an extension to a 1/2” twist drill and drilled the old bore out, machined the outside octagonal, then hand made the lock and the stock from a piece of local Tallow wood. The only part of the whole rifle that I didn’t make from scratch was the SS No11 nipple! 😁 The bore was as drilled and had a strange undulating spiral in it, but it shot quite well with a patched round ball and at 75yds, would put the first two shots within an inch of each other! I was pleased and very surprised! 😁
I hunted with it like that for 15 odd years and then decided to ream the bore smooth, because all the experts reckoned that a ‘Smoothbore’ had to have a mirror finish. Well, the accuracy dropped off dramatically and I couldn’t be sure of even hitting the target at 50yds, not just the bullseye. 😖😖👎 The only way to resurrect the barrel was to rifle it and that’s what I did. By using something like the old method, with a twisted square rod ( 1: 30 twist ) pulled through a matching plate and with a cutting bit on the end of it. It took a while to cut 8 deep grooves and they are a bit rough, but now it shoots again. 👍😁 I still use it and now I’m in the middle of making a new conical mould for it, because that’s why I made it with such a fast twist rate.
If you have any other questions, I’d be happy to answer them. Cheers, Tony. 👍👋
@@Afro408 thanks for answering me, Tony. Yes, I have more doubts, forgive me! You shared in a replica, a link that talks about the history of gundrill, its beginning in the 20's as this D bit of your video and later in the 30's, the emergence of gundrill as we know it, with a V-slot and a channel for pumping oil. And that left me quite intrigued, because in the 1920s, large-caliber weapons were already being produced, such as the Browning .50 BMG. It's crazy to imagine that these barrels of these machine guns (which I believe due to the extreme pressure of this type of cartridge, used an alloy of chrome molybdenum or other very hard steel, correct?) were drilled with D bits? thanks for replying and thanks for allowing me to ask again! Hugs, Tony!
@@wesaderty I think Nickel steel barrels were being drilled from a blank in the late 1800’s and later Chrome-Moly steel was used, because it machined easier and had a higher tensile strength. Some Sulphur is added to make it easier to machine. Chrome- Moly steel is not very hard, but very strong. As soon as Tungsten Carbide was invented, that has been used for the deep hole drill bits, as well as high pressure lubricant forced down the hollow rod. It only takes a few minutes to drill a barrel blank now, because the bit doesn’t have to be withdrawn to clear the chips.
I hope to be able to cut the rifling in this .52 barrel soon. I know I’ve been saying that ever since I put this video up, but there always seems to be something more important to do! 😅😅
@@Afro408 Hi Tony, I'm here again! I am amazed at all the technological innovation that man offers, but what really amazes me is how the things of the past are of good quality and with few resources. I have a OD 2" and 20" long chrome molybdenum round bar and I wanted to drill a 0.5" hole. And I wanted your advice on whether it would be better to use a high speed steel or carbide D-bit. In the case of high speed steel, I know it would be necessary to quench and temper, and in the case of carbide, would it also need to quench and temper? or would it be better to just use a carbide insert at the end of the shank? hugs, Tony!
@@wesaderty you can weld a piece of 1/2” dia HSS on to the end of a rod using stainless steel electrodes, I have done it before and then grind your D bit. You won’t need to heat treat the cutting edge, because the heat from the weld doesn’t soften it! I thought it would, but when I tried it it was still just as hard and that milling machine tool still cuts and is easy to sharpen. Remember though, your drilling rod must be very straight and that’s going to be hard to achieve. That is why I used a piece of O1 silver steel ( which the Americans call Drill rod, because that was what it was originally ) You can silver braze the HSS, or Carbide point onto the rod and that won’t effect the hardness either.
Have you ever wondered why we ended up with the caliber sizes we have? I know I did! 😅 Look at the stock sizes of drill rod available and then you will understand.
For instance: .22 cal most popular size. Starts out with a 13/64” ( .203” )drill rod, ream the drilled hole to 7/32” (.218”) bore and then cut the rifling to .224”, or 5.56mm. 😁
They would have done the same in Europe eg, 6.5mm drill rod hole, then reamed to 7mm bore. People used and still do, use what is available and only get something custom made when necessary.
I don't think 12L14 would work as a gun barrel. Such a soft metal would quickly wear out any rifling. Generally Gun Barrels use much harder materials, which require a carbide gun drill and high pressure through hole lube to push out the chips. Also need bushing on the gun drill to support it during drilling.
Guy Tech Well I think you should go back in history a bit and look at what earlier barrels were made from. This barrel is for BP only and will be perfectly adequate in that role and if we can wear it out, in what is left of our lives, we will be happy chaps indeed! 😁
The cutting oil pressure is also critical to maintaining straight line boring as it exits on the rear relief angle and pushes the chips back down a v-way. If too high a pressure is used it pushes the drill bit away from the rear relief. While working as a general machinist at Canadian Arsenals Ltd. (Longbranch) I watched the ladies that ran those multi-spindle machines and they could tell just by listening if they were going off center while drilling .303 Lee Enfield, M-14, M16 and the FN barrels. They would fine tune the pressure valves for the cutting oil until everything "sounded" right. Barrels coming out of that factory were renown for their accuracy.
@@Afro408 you can Chrome plate the insides and it will live longer than you :)
you can use car drive shafts made from 42crmo4 sae 4140 steel
Where did you get the bit? Or did you make it? Very interesting! Great video.
Thank you mockingbird66. I made it from a piece of 1/2” diameter silver steel, which is o1 tool steel and hardened it. 😁
@@Afro408 I kinda thought that what it was. You have given me great inspiration. I'm gonna do this!! Thank you so much.
@@mockinbirds66 go for it! If you’re in the US, it is referred to as drill rod, because that is what it was mainly used for. Have you ever wondered how we ended up with some of the early rifle calibers? I used to, until I looked at the drill rod sizes and they match the pre reamed bore size of a lot of them. .22 rimfire for instance. 7/32” is its bore size. It is possible that this is the reason. 🤷♂️ anyway, I still have to cut the rifling, but I have no way of posting the video of that here. For some reason I can’t post anything. 🤷♂️😏 that’s why my channel has not had any new content for a while now. 🤷♂️
Is that a leaded steel? If it is it would be very soft.
Yes it is. That's what the L in 12L14 stands for.
Question sir - I have a WW 11 Japanese rifle, & uncle brought 2 home, 1 for him & 1 for my dad. Dad had a man re-bore his for US ammo - but the guys messed the barrel up. Should I have it re-bored are change barrel
. Thanks.
@@Afro408 Thank you sir - the barrel is screwed up so present size ? I will try to figure where it is at now & get back to you.
@@zanelile8192 Ok. Find out whether it is the .311 bore or 6.5mm, but I would recommend you having a new barrel fitted in the calibre of your choice. Unless you want it kept in military trim.
@@Afro408 Stock it was 6.5 MM -
@@Afro408 I respect your view - may just try a new barrel. In smaller size. Thanks again.
could the wandering be eliminated if you started with cold-drawn pipe of the proper quality, that had a pretty straight hole down its whole length, and then just used d bit reamers to expand the hole to be larger? do reamers like that wander over the course of such an operation?
Hi Bilbo. It would be possible, if you could find some with a safe wall thickness. Something I was never able to do here in Australia. After boring this one, I asked a professional barrel maker friend of mine about how much runout he got with his dedicated carbide drills and he said that the tiny runout I got was enviable. 😁
@@Afro408 I'm sure!
@@Afro408 Wow, I just realized that that cutter is made of O1 steel. That's impressive. How do you mitigate heat buildup? I've tried to machine with non-HSS like that before and my tools just turn to mush.
@@bilbo_gamers6417 Thanks. Keep the tool sharp, slow cutting speeds, plenty of good sticky lube and don't push it. The only marks we could see, in the bored hole, were from trying to take too much in one cut. The chips built up and scored the surface. Otherwise it would have been nice and smooth. 🤔
I have made chamber reamers from old 4140, .17 or.22 barrels. Machine the shape oversize, cut the flutes, heat treat, finish grind to shape and cut a chamber in a new barrel. 😁 My years as a toolmaker have helped. 😉
@@Afro408 Just coming back to this now that I actually know what 4140 is. You made reamers out of medium carbon steel? What's your tempering process like? I would be inclined to think any significant amount of temper on such a medium carbon steel would make it way too soft.
leaterh gloves and watches will kill you when using a lathe
@@erikev I agree on principle, but this one was turning slowly and we are taking great care near the spindle nose. Also, when my friend was operating, I was standing right beside the stip switch. Just in case. Thanks for watching this old video and cheers from Downunda. 😁🍻
Where can I find long tool bits like this? I’m new to machining.
If you're in the USA, get some O1 drill rod, or downunda it's called Silver Steel, or precision ground tool steel rod.
why are you not using a steady, travelling steady or fixed, that rod is going to gyrate in column, why are you spade drilling, just askin'
Ask away Stewart. Did you see it gyrate? 😁 I’m using a D bit, because it is self steadying and can’t really do anything but follow its own hole.
Unfortunately I don’t know when I’ll get the rifling done. Too much going on at the moment. 🤷♂️😅
Well that must be pretty
BORING :D
👍👍👍👍
What type of steel barrel???awesome idea..
esan elavarasan. Thank you. It’s 12L14 free machining mild steel.
@@Afro408 thanks for reply..
wooow ! where i can find this drill ? do you have a link ?
Martinmontagne. Just look up gun drills or deep hole drilling suppliers. Or make your own, as I did.
You can buy them off ebay. The problem is availability of precisely comparable drills to existing calibers. A very clever machinist, like Tony, did a series of 40 pistol calibers because the available fractional sizes actually work for that caliber. Of course you can buy real gun drills, but be prepared for a shock.
What is the Name of the drill?
d bit cutter
Were u supporting it with a spider?
quickdraw McGraw Yes. I made a very short spider to fit the camlock spindle nose, with four set screws in it and put four screws into the other end of the spindle. I did this years ago so I was able to hold and true up both ends of a shorter barrel.
thanks so much for sharing. I'm interested in drilling a deep hole with a d bit. About 14" deep in 304SS. Hoping to go 7" from each side with a 4 jaw. Maybe I could just go straight through with a d bit and some support from a steady rest or a spider. Where did you learn to make the d bit? Did you use a blank with pre made tip?
quickdraw McGraw do it from one end only and if you have the room on your lathe, set the rear of the blank up in the 4jaw and support the front end with your three point steady. I machined the D bit on the end of a length of 1/2” O1 silver steel and just hardened the cutting end. I think I sharpened it once about half way along the blank.
Whats a type of torn?
Do you have any videos on making your own cutting tools?
Hi steelcannibal. No I don't, but I guess I could. I haven't bothered, because of all the tool making and sharpening info is already available, but if you think it would help you understand what I'm doing better, then I suppose I should do it. Let me know. Now that I'm retired, I was planning on posting more videos from my workshop. We still have to rifle this barrel, so that will be up here soon.
I know a little about the basics of heat treating. But I've just been curious about making my own 'D' shaped gundrill's but don't know much about the proper geometry.
Are you going to do button rifling? Or hook cut?
@@steelcannibal It will be hook cut. We're just going to make a simple jig, with a twisted square steel bar that has the cutting tool on the end and running through a square hole. Just like the old wooden rifling machines.
@@steelcannibal You can find lots of info on D bits, they are basically just a rounded or pointed end, with the top half removed. The cutting edge has the full edge/diameter, and the rest of the point and cutting edge is relieved. The part most instructions do not specify is exactly how much is half. If you are full diameter, it does not cut a desired, if you remove too much it changes the hole size. The dimensions I saw in an old book were that tat you removed half the diamet + .001"/.1" of diameter. But at least there is that consideration, it could be the ratio would vary as to factors in your set-up.
There is a whole two video set on making your own chambering tools out of D bits, or two flute "D" bits. AGI puts it out. It is not barrel making, but the bits are similar, except the reamers are piloted.
There are a lot of very delicate issues in barrel making. It takes a master to get them right, and then to get them to the exact dimensions. There are a lot of stupid video on RUclips, not these, where the end results are probably off by half cartridge like between .357, and .40.
At one time, some of the finest barrels in the world were made on home shop machinery.
@@HondoTrailsideThank you! That gives me something to work with!
.
‘8
This is all wrong. I wouldn't shoot that mickey mouse gun. Do it right or pay a professional
You are talking through your hat. I’m retired now, but when we made this I had a Gunsmithing business and had already built several complete guns. 🖕
Watch 'The Colonial Gunsmith'
Sorry I could not watch to the end it was boring
Yes, it was, rather. I got bored doing it as well! ;) It took 256 individual cuts to get through the 32" of the blank.
@@Afro408 That is very useful information. I always wondered how many pecks someone like Pope would have to drill. That is 1/8" pecks!
Hondo Trailside With the right equipment and using a modern carbide tipped deep hole drill, it can be done on one pass, as all the swarf is pumped back down the hole.