My collection of electronic parts, computer chips and cables should also achieve that aim! Better than when we cleared out my late mum's sideboard and threw out her almost worthless wedding presents and some aluminium tea and coffee pots.
Running larger equipment can give someone unreasonable expectations of what a small lathe or mill should do. Tiny horsepower and tiny machine means tiny cuts. I have found that having even small machines at home is super useful for DIY project. There are so many things that pop up that could use a spacer or a bushing, a custom over-sized key or just cleaned up on the lathe with a file. And once you have the machines you can use them make parts to make them better. Rock on tiny machine owners.
expectations can easily be exaggerated both on a persons 'real needs' and the output for the investment... I have an even simpler (AKA cheap) 750w pillar drill (yes... drill) and an even cheaper compound base for occasional Aluminium but mostly hard plastics. I don't need anything more than 0.1mm accuracy and i'm super happy with the output. As seen here you can get the most out of anything by clamping stuff down 'PROPERLY' and minimising the slack via the gibs. but above all; keep expectations realistic
exactly why I purchased a mini mill and mini lathe after leaving my previous employer. I had grown accustomed to having access to those machines for personal use, and I missed it. It's so nice to be able to just make simple things that would otherwise be a long wait with shipping costing exponentially more than the price of the material.
THIS ! I am always afraid to let anyone near my small Proma lathe, because they would ram that and went 1.5mm cuts, my poor little boy trembles, when he hears we gon cut steel today.
Exactly, appropriate material, tooling geometry and depth of cut are important. Chip load can't really change much or you're just rubbing and work hardening the material
yes i agree, there are times i would love to have a mini mill and lathe. but i can not afford the cost of even hf stuff. or make the purchase qualify in my budget.
Got a mini lathe for by 18th birthday. About 5 years later having "basic machining" experience on my resume helped me land my current job where being able to fabricate an occational part on a mill or lathe is an asset.
Same thing for me! Bought a manual mini metal lathe and brought a machinist hammer into the interview that was .0015 - .002 thou from target dimension. Can't say it landed me a job, but I'd like to believe it did.
I bought a mini lathe and found a new hobby: hotrodding my mini lathe! I learned how to lap and scrape ways, made and installed stops, saddle locks, quick release tail stock… the list goes on. Meanwhile, it was capable of really good work. Lest scoffers say I don’t know how well a good machine works, I worked on Hardinge lathes for decades. Clearly, these mini lathes are no match for a hardinge, but they are satisfying in their own right. It’s all about knowing your tools.
I’m glad I learned on a South Bend so I could appreciate a Hardinge’s sheer luxury. As I said before, it’s all about learning and understanding your machine and what’s happening at the sharp end of the tool.
@@trackie1957 When I bought SB was a lot cheaper than chinese, and those lathes were incomprehensible, anyway. Every change in model size was a completely different feature set. SB was more than adequate in the day, and parts are easy to find.
My company scrapped a Hardinge last year. I couldn't get it home, alas but I thank it for all the aeroplane bits it made for me after hours over the years. A lovely lathe, Tough, smooooooth and very, very accurate.
Honestly sounds a lot like my 3D printer habit, er, hobby. Paying premium prices for premium machines gets you one that works without too much fiddling, but cheap machines are less functional tools and more projects to see what sort of ridiculous nonsense you can get up to.
After my mini mill inevitably broke the gears, I had a great project for the lathe - making aluminum pullies to convert the mill to v-belt drive. Best thing I ever did for the mill. Now it's quiet, runs with less vibration and when I do something stupid, the belt slips instead of it blowing up the gearbox. SO much more pleasant to use. 100% worth doing.
Great video mate - funny and informative. The first mill I ever used (1975 as a 15 year old) was a Deckle FP1 and I had no idea what a milling machine even was until I used that. I went to trade school a few weeks after starting that job (an apprenticeship in Instrument Making) and was asked to make some parts as part of an exercise. They only had old well abused and worn out Bridgeports and I couldn't get a decent finish. I told my instructor "I never have this problem on the mill where I work." so he asked what type it was. When I told him it was a near new Deckle FP1 he looked shocked and replied "They let YOU use a Deckle?!" I felt privileged and insulted all at once.
There was a deckle group here in Toronto. When i was looking for a mill table to use as a welding fixture, I bumped into some of these guys at a machine rebuilder that was retiring out. They tried to give me a similar machine that had two heads and tables, not sure why, and I wish I could have taken it, but I had decided to be satisfied with my Clausing 85XX.
Column won't hold tram ? Remove big nut, remove column, Measure holes and bolt diameter sizes, Get on lathe and turn down a sleeve to fit bolt. Make outside diam large enough when in position INSIDE the column in line with the bolt to be in contact with the two inner faces of the column. You will now be tightening the nut up to a solid column instead of tightening up to a hollow structure which can flex, loosening the nut.
I started out with a harbor freight mini mill and mini lathe when I first got into machining and metal working. I slowly graduated to slightly larger benchtop machines and ended up with a full sized gunsmithing lathe and a CNC mill. When I retired, I sold most of my metal working machines thinking I'd no longer have much use for them; boy was I wrong. I sold off my mini lathe many years ago, but I kept the mini mill all this time. I still own it and I still use it and, I just recently bought another mini lathe. It's true that they require alot of tuning up to get them to run accurately; or, accurately enough for hobby stuff but, with a little experience under your belt that really isn't that hard to do.
Minimills are absolutely fine for hobby machining. The main issue you're going to find is that many of the issues brought up are probably with using it for business purposes in mind. As in when someone says it can't be used on steel I have always read that as them saying you can use it but the amount of time is not cost effective. I'd also like to point out that you had it go out of tram on the video and your final test was checking after a clean up pass? Not saying roughing will definately make it go off tram but you basically gave it the easiest tast short of using a 1/8" endmill. Tolerance wise you'll basically be okay as long as you're taking slow small passes and creeping up on it but again this is unnaceptable for job shop type work as it takes far too long. I wan't to stress that I have no issues with mini mills but just remember their scope is very limited.
Good post. I'd like to add that due to the all-in-a-line bolts that connect the z pillar to the x-y table the system is prone to nod in the x axis. At the highest z from the table you sometimes (yes, in my case) .128 +,- from TDC. So you may get ~accurate and small or sloppy and tall, but you will never get accurate and tall. My purchase of one has been a worthwhile learning experience since I came to the trade with no experience at all. If you know nothing and want to learn I wouldn't turn one down if it was given to me like I would now.
Excellent point, for producing parts in a production run it wouldn’t be possible to keep pace with full sized machines. As for the testing I see how that was confusing! I didn’t do any re-alignment after I made the t slot nut so the full scope of the test was the roughing and finishing of the t slot nut, plus the clean up pass, after which there was no shifting. I was mainly curious if there was some weirdness going on from vibrations caused by the larger endmill
I used a Sieg X2D (the fixed Z column version of the mill in the video) to start my business. I built my own cnc conversation using Centroid CNC Acorn and closed loop steppers. I added a belt drive kit and a 1.1kw spindle motor. That little mill allowed me to start my business and get a real foothold. I'm now running a Syil X7 and I'm on my way to saving for a Brother Speedio or something else. Not quite sure yet. Long winded way to say that these little mills are great. Also check out John Grimsmo. He built up from one of these minimills to one of the craziest cnc machine shops I've seen in Canada.
Love to hear the success stories. The whole goal of this video was to show that these are very capable machines so it’s nice to see that I’m not mistaken!
What a great video. I have a hefty lathe and an equally hefty miling machine in my workshop. Recently I helped a customer of mine set up a mini mill very similar to yours. We had exactly the same issue with tramming in both the X&Y axes. Once bolted down we had a go at milling some small blocks of alloy and steel, and I was surprised at how good it was. My machines are capable of taking 3-5mm cuts in hard steel if need be, but on a mini mill or lathe that's impossible. Light cuts should be the order of the day. I found that on the mini mill 20 thou was about the maximum on steel, and about 40 thou on alloy I think that a lot of people who slag off such machines are simply taking cuts that are too heavy, and all machines have a limit as to how much they can handle. A bad workman blames his tools etc.
I have a CX-605 as well, had it for a few years now. I fixed the "noise" issue by changing the gear sets from plastic to cast gears* (*little machine shop) and using a good high pressure grease cut the racket down with good results. I don't have a tramming issue, I think because I literally stripped the machine down scrubbed the packing grease off of every mating surface. I also have a CX-708 Lathe which has been working without issue, it too was noisy but changing the oil and adding Lucas Oil treatment to the gear box make an amazing difference. Great video thanks for the share!
Changed my plastic gears to brass gears that I cut myself using a hardened silver steel hob ( Rack type cutting edges, not spiral, dimensions in handbook) and a dividing head, (40 to 1 ratio) then I made myself a full set of plates that I drilled myself, (Hole positions on internet, done on Milling Machine). Also replaced the plastic change gears with brass and aluminium on the mini lathe,
It seems to me (admittedly not a machinist, just curious) that the smaller machines offer a cheaper solution if you are willing to input labor to offset the price/space requirements. Which is why it appears to be more popular among hobbyists or those with small needs. Those who need these machines daily cannot afford 'extra' time each go to ensure everything is square. Which is a fair assessment. I think it would be beneficial to actually see the labor you, or others like the video author, ACTUALLY put into improving the performance of these machines. Like when the author admits he needed to tighten down the platform more.
When buying these machines, it is IMPORTANT to understand that all the castings are finish cut in one go. Consequently, they are ALL warped. When one side is cut, the stresses are released, and the metal changes shape. After initial cutting, the casting should be left to warp, and then be final machined. Therefore, the first task, is to determine the best datum surfaces to make flat, and then get everything square. Ideally you need another milling machine, but I re-engineered mine with a surface plate, 4mm float glass, and a large variety of abrasives. ... It was a huge task. Don't forget to 'grind in' the circular pivot bearing surface to the pillar. This enables the pillar to be clamped solid. Prior to assembly, you will need to add rigidity. Add two bolts to the base, just past the '3 screw fulcrum point' on the pivot block, so that the base has four bolts around the fulcrum point. The three screws, are almost inline, providing limited rigidity (considering the pillar and head, are flexing around the 3 screw fulcrum point). On the pivot block, there is only space for two additional 6mm screws (so use hardened screws). I added concrete to the pillar, to add mass. Finally; cast a concrete base. I embedded a pre-cast flat cement garden slab for the mounting surface, and rub ground the base to the slab. This is a lot of work, but you end up with a proper milling machine for a cost of just £750 Obviously, having another mill, and a surface grinder, would make this work a simple task :)
Now, THAT would make a great video! You could really contribute to RUclips if you had a channel. I really don't know if you have a channel of your own or not. I am serious though when I say that you should think about becoming a RUclips creator, I'd watch your video's!
I ran one of these for about a decade. Did tons of upgrades including stretching the Y axis, stiffening, and making it CNC. Sure X2 mills can make parts, but it has serious limitations. I regretted not saving a bit more to get a heavier machine with a couple inches longer travels on Y&Z.
Yeah that is very fair. I’m lucky enough that 95% of what I make fits in the x2 work envelope, and the other 5% can usually be adjusted with a few hours (days) in the CAD model. It is nice to hear that my take on these things isn’t completely coming out of left field though!
I have machining experience (and a much larger lathe and mill in my garage) and 15 years ago or so bought a Chinese mini-lathe and mini-mill similarly "just to see what they were all about." There are a wide range of opinions from "works fine for me" to "these can be viewed as a kit and you have to fix and improve almost everything." I think this variance is due to a variability in the quality machine to machine, and a variability in expectations. This is the first such machine for many and they don't know what a good quality machine is like. Others DO have experience and can spot the limitations and instantly realize why there is chatter when maybe there shouldn't be and so forth.
I agree completely. If ever someone wants to get into machining I always tell them the best quality and the biggest you can handle! Generally the jobs you pick up or tasks you pick up will be determined by machine size specifically with smaller machines. The smaller stuff generally will have issues though where everything needs to be corrected. Not always but a good chunk. Staying within the capabilities of the smaller machines are important as well even though on a bigger machine those capabilities are generally more maximized.
I have a mini mill and never had a problem. Nothing ever moved and I was able take deep cuts in material with no chatter in aluminum and steel. You just need a basic idea of speeds and feeds, upgrade to a belt drive, and get something better than a screwless vise. Also using industry grade cutters make a big difference. The only limitation I still hit was the size material I can hold in it. So quick cuts I need generally work out, but larger parts I go use a friend's Bridgeport like when I made an exhaust spacer. But I was able to take about an inch depth of cut on aluminum with my mini mill and nothing ever chattered or moved.
I suspect it also makes a huge difference just who you bought it from - the crap castings and terrible finishing on some of them may have started at the same foundry as the good ones. But they could for instance be the quality control rejects from the places that sell reasonably good machines being sold on by somebody else etc... I know my mini mill has a surprisingly good spindle (at least for what it is) but the table is pretty terrible - probably salvageable but I've not really got around to invesitaging that.
agreed. i'm a musician and i've had my 6-string electric bass for almost a decade now. i was working at a music shop, and the owner was a bass player, so we had everything from beginner models to $8000 6 string Zons. none of them felt right. then one day, i unpacked an LTD D6. it was magic, effortless, just...unreal. AND it was the cheapest 6 string we sold, it listed for $500. and i can almost guarantee the next one off the assembly line played like shit haha
hahaha. people who use one of these. mills with the rotation of the tool instead of against. ( like it has a ballscrew without backlash, )and then look weird that their tool is destroyed or the surface is shitty and inaccurate.
Hello I am a full time machinist and it seems like these days the #1 question I get from hobbyists is "are these mini machines any good". The answer to that is "If you work within their capabilities, and if they meet your needs." You gotta remember that a full time machinist is not a maker in a garage who can spend an hour making a single T nut by cutting off .010" at a time because they are doing it for fun. A machinist who wants to keep their job needs to be pushing the envelope of what any machine can handle. Most of us don't like standing there watching the machine make chips on a single part all day which many makers seem to be OK with. We want to get it over with and go on to the next thing. So that is why they are unpopular with professional machinists. We look at them from a different mindset with a different set of expectations. They take up 75% the floor space as a Bridgeport and have maybe 5% of the capability. A maker would consider a Bridgeport to be a heavy duty large machine. A machinist considers a Bridgeport to be a small, light duty machine that is not very rigid, but is very versatile. There are desktop mills out there that can take 3/8x1/2" cuts in steel with no problems. I would be interested to see if yours could do that and get any reasonable surface finish.
I agree. Unfortunately, the best table top mills are very expensive vs used manual full size mills and most people don't have space for a Bridgeport 3 phase 2 HP mill. I have used a full size Bridgeport at work and miss it, but don't have room. Comparing prices- a used full size mill is a better deal if the buyer has space and knows how to check the machine and set up in his shop
Toolamker for over 50 years (Well, I didn't START as a Toolmaker!). It warms my heart to see a newcomer such as yourself with such a positive attitude and the ability to address the small deficiencies in an inexpensive machine. One suggestion is to find a REAL Milling Vise rather trhna a Toolmakers vice.. (although for the work that you're doing, should suffice). In five years you'll be amazed at your skil sets. Keep on. There are millions of tools and parts that are well within your capabilities. Those Capabilities will only increase with time. Very nice.Best to you!
Thank you for the encouragement! I figure a good attitude and willingness to learn is always a good place to start. I’ll be sure to keep an eye out for a proper vice!
When I try to run my mini mill like I run my bridgeport I get crummy results. When I run my mini mill with responsible feeds, speeds, cutter size, and DOC for the machine, I get fantastic results in even very hard materials. Turns out basic machining fundamentals don't care how big the machine is. Keep up the great work!
I don't know much about machining, but I have a pretty serious background in electronic and physical/dimensional calibration. I knew right off the bat that you were going to get better results just from a thorough setup. It is also worth mentioning that over time parts will wear, and temp/humidity will change and cause variations, meaning you'll have to occasionally go back through the setup.
the best addition will be a stiffening plate at the back of the column, and then a 3 axis DRO - this will cost you about $ 250 in LED or about $300 in LCD, both with scales to fit your mill. I have made a polyVee drive myself and do not regret it - there are instructions on youtube and the internet as how to do it. Another tip I can give is to 'cap' the drawbar and give it a square end - a spanner is way more easy on the spindle bearings than a hammer to loosen the MT3 tapers, and a spring loaded spindle stop will be a nice addition too.
I did the stiffening plate too. Had to tap a bolt hole at the back of the frame, and in the column, but that is a lot better than having a colmn shift totally mess up a work.
These machines are made by more than one company and the quality can vary. Don't buy from the cheapest supplier and try to get a look at the machines before you buy. Both the lathes and the mills are quite capable machines within their size limitations. The main thing I don't like on some of the lathes is where they only have a limited range of belt changes and rely on an electronic speed control. One idea to increase the friction on the tilting column would be to fit a paper gasket. This is also a useful trick to help a job have a good grip on the table or vice face.
If you ever break the nylon gear, just 3D print a replacement. PLA works just fine. I havent broken the gear again. But it is a mechanical fuse. So im not worried if it does.
I have both a mini lathe and mini Mill. Both have worked great. Recently I am creating an open view case for a Ford Escort Transaxle for illustrative purposes at car shows. Have had to cut perfect holes in plate steel for five bearing races. The mini Mill along with a rotary table mounted to it has done the job beautifully. The races fit snug with no play. When holding the race in the hole I can barley see any light coming through the circumference. All done without a DRO ( Digital Read Out). There's a technique to it, but once you get that down the holes are perfect. Nice thing also is when I cut a hole I also get a perfect circle of steel to make gears out of for a later project. It's not necessary to cut a center hole in the circle Plug but I do anyway. That way if I do use the plug for a gear it already has a perfectly centered hole for a drive shaft with no run-out. ALL DONE ON A MINI MILLING MACHINE! I will say this though...when I received my Harbor Freight mini Mill there was a broken wire in the switch box I had to repair to get it to turn on.
i always laugh when i go to a job and they say "no modified tools" literally every single thing I own besides a few socket sets have been modified to some degree
I've had one of these machines for about 20 years now. After using it for a while with the gear drive supplied I changed to belt drive (bought as a kit) and I think it was really worth the conversion, much smoother running. I find that it max's out at about a 10 mm (3/8") end mill or slot drill for normal cutting work (but usually stick to 6 mm /1/4") and 12 mm (1/2") for light surfacing.
Had my mini mill now for many years. Mods- gas strut alongside the column to prevent spindle dropping, changed the gears for drive belt, both make it much nicer to use. Yes I use the jacobs chuck a lot for most things, accurate enough for what I use it for on daily basis.
Best tiny machines imo have been a sub $300 3D printer, and a multiprocess 120/230 ESAB welder. Professional welder/fabricator turned local 396 ironworker apprentice. Looking to get a little millwright station like this in the future, this was a phenomenal video, thank you!!
I have one. As benchdrill, its really good (compared to drill). As mill, it has several weakness 1) not stiff enough 2) power (electronic speed contol is weak in low RPM, not much torque) 3) size, its impossible to put parts under cutter because there is not enough room. But if you do small parts, its OK.
You'd be amazed what I did on a tiny Unimat back in the '60s. I once made a new crankshaft for a model aircraft engine on it, using a bit of scrap axle shaft from a truck. Yes it took ages, but I got there. I have a bigger lathe now (4 1/2" Boxford), but I still use the little Unimat for really tiny parts.... the very high spindle speeds available are very useful when machining things often less than 1/16" diameter. Horses for courses. I have a light milling machine now too when I say light, it weighs 500kgs!) that is remarably capable. Geared head (a bit noisy) and 2 axis DRO. For the money it's a good machine. You get what you pay for with machinery of all sorts, and the ultra precision machines are way beyond affordable for most of us. Any half way decent machinist should be able to work to closer tolerances than those on the machines he/she is using......
On those machines, if the tilting head is that much of an issue, since 0 degrees would be the must used position, couldn't one set a good 0 (and or other useful angles) and then drill an indexing hole for a removable pin ? I mean if you need 31 odd degrees or something, sure you will have to make sure it is not shifting during by taking lighter passes, but otherwise it some indexing holes sounds like a good solution to still have the potential of the tilting head and the piece of mind for regular jobs. It would also make make resetting the head easier after the occasional odd job, so less reason to procrastinate doing it. Am I missing something that would make it impractical, appart from the difficulty of drilling the hole in the first place ?
Instead of making "soda can" shims, I would go to an auto parts store and grab a set of feeler gauges, take them apart, and you have everything from .001 to .100.
You're going to end up with a million subs. You've got what it takes: Great video and audio quality, top notch script writing, narration, pace, editing, humor. The whole nine yards. Thumbs and subs.
In my opinion, a 'small' branded mill or lathe can be a valued asset to a garage/hobbyist's shop. At 65 I had more time to play with projects. Was intimidated by the thoughts of adding larger/heavier/costlier machines to my small shop. For a bit over $3,000 both machines were added to my workspace, positioned and secured by myself. Now instead of +/- 1/32 I can easily work to +/- .001. Tooling costs continue but it has all been worth it.
I follow the BerylCNC mantra of "light cuts" on any of this Chinese mini machinery. It's simple physics - the smaller the area of a given pressure, the higher the force on the material. So if you use sharp carbide and take a light cut, you'll push your cutting force up into the range of the "production machines". If you're making prototypes or one-offs, these machines can work great. Also helps to not trash up your good machines on sketchy jobs, so they are good for that too.
Retired machinist, looking to set up a small home shop to tinker a bit. My complaint is price, why should I pay more than a used 2 phase industrial knee mill or turret lathe in good shape, just to have greatly reduced capacity?
I agree that prices for the Chinese hobby machines are too expensive for what the buyer obtains. Unfortunately, price of a newly manufactured hobby machines of good quality would not sell well enough. An experienced machinist would be able to determine the condition of a used machine. Not so for beginners. One big problem for many is the lack of space for full size machines.
Much like the complainers you are describing, an entertaining time can be had by going to Amazon and looking for various mechanical things, and then reading the reviews. Not the 5 star, the one star reviews. This is where those folks that could break an anvil reside. One of my favorites, a simple plastic hang up hook for an old school telephone handset, the kind you would use in a factory or office environment where you wanted to put the handset up and safely out of the way, but not hang up the phone while you did something else for a moment. Obvious for what it was supposed to do, and it had two holes in it to mount it to some surface. It got a one star review because, "Did not come with installation instructions."
Reviews for a 2-component epoxy resin from a very renowned company on Amazon: - one key property for this resin was the long open time of 45 minutes. Review "Takes forever to harden. Am I supposed to hold the parts for an hour? Worst glue I have ever used." - the resin/hardener was to be mixed 1:1 by volume. Review: "I mixed it 1:1 by weight and now all is sticky and won't harden completely. I have to throw away my project. Why didn't the manufacturer provide mixing ratios by weight?" Well, they did in the MSD, which was readily available on the manufacturer's web site. Which other company does even provide an MSD for epoxy resin at all? Besides, because the bottles for resin and hardener were the same size, it would have been trivial to just weight both and to find out that their specific weight is different and therefore you cannot mix them 1:1 by weight. But that would be accepting responsibility for your own mistakes.
agreed. i have the harbor freight one and once i completely dismantled it, cleaned it, smoothed rough edges, lubed, assembled, and adjusted it, i have been getting excellent results. yes, you cannot take as deep a cut as on a $5k machine but then, you do not need 3 phase power and a huge space either. i would not use these for mass production business but they are perfect for hobby and small parts machining.
Happy to hear you’ve had good luck! Yeah definitely easier to fit one of these things into a shop. I have to hand carry all my tools down a flight of stairs which makes getting a full size mill a bit of a challenge haha
@@Someone_Should_Make_That yup, i am in the basement which makes a large mill, which is what i learned on, impossible too. i have a 9x20 lathe too that i love. the key to chinese machine tools it to think of them as a kit. dismantle, clean, finish, assemble, adjust, and you will have an awesome machine for a lot less cost. of course costs are going to jump drastically again very soon.
People who don’t have experience. Will expect way more than the majority of these small mills can comfortably handle. The rule is , clamp heavy cut light. With patience you can do impressive work on a small machine.
And why, pray tell, should the purchaser be expected to loosen major parts of the assembly to make it level or true or whatever? You can screw around like that if you want to Sparky but I'm not interested.
Because, perchance, they make them adjustable for a reason, and its almost like every piece of machinery trusts that the user will have to do some amount of adjustment to make it accurate, curious. Not everything is self-levelling, and hell, most entry level 3d printers require you to do manual bed leveling but you don't see anyone complaining about that do you...
My brushless mill is super smooth and quiet, maybe I lucked out, I’m in Canada and got it at Busy Bee Tools, was able to tram mine super close too, almost dead on, as close as I need it for sure. I’m thinking same rebranded mill as other sellers have, anyway more than happy with it for a hobby mill. My lathe needed more cleanup on some rough edges, replaced a few crappy cap screws with good ones, spent some time with motor alignment and now happy with it too, w other the price to me for sure.
Thanks for looking into this! As a scale model builder, I'm currently at that point as well and I want to get something that can work on plastic, but also brass and aluminium, like for internal skeletons on larger models to eliminate parts sagging over the years.
You need to drill and ream a tapered hole to the base of that vertical column. Tram it level, then just drill and ream the tapered hole. Fit a tapered pin, tap it in, head square and physically prevented from drifting. French Huron Mills had this, great method....🤔😳😏🇬🇧
I bought a mini mill (rebranded) from a local provider where I think they do some basic QC checking on the ones they order. Mine is the exact same model as yours. There's always an initial setup time in getting everything perfectly square although mine was dead on left to right (only .001" over the whole length) and only had about .004" front to back which was fixed by shimming under the tower where it connects to the base. That was about 6 years ago and since then it has been invaluable for me in getting projects done, I use it also for my knife making sometimes and it's all around a great tool. Just like others said, don't expect to be hogging off 1/4" chunks with a small mill like this. Usually i don't go over .030" if I want to remove material quickly. If not I usually just take half that if I'm not in a hurry. But to be fair, you probably could get away with hogging off .060" with a quality face mill as long as you have everything else set up very rigid and the mill tuned to eliminate any play.
About 10 years ago I bought a Sieg SX2p - this is like the SX2, but with an larger table, and brushless DC motor/belt drive. I got fed up cranking the x axis, so decided to motorise it. The cheap way was a stepper motor+driver+spare PC+linuxCNC. It worked great, but tempted me to do a similar job on the y axis. Once I had done that I got a large circular slab of aluminium for use as a high vacuum baseplate and trepanned a hole for fitting a diffusion pump. linxCNC meant I could mill a nice circle, but I still had to feed the zed axis manually. So, I CNC-d the z-axis. I then added an A-axis, and cut some gears. A mini-mill is very useful in a home workshop, and can do many things so long as cuts are small enough. With CNC and a camera/display for monitoring progress while one relaxes in an armchair with a beer or La Tache '90 the cuts can be extremely fine, but relaxing (yes - I know from experience!). But I have learned lessons - and am now returning crank handles to the axes - but using rotary encoders - to produce the intuitive feel of a conventional mill. I am doing the same with my lathe, and will be able to discard my compound and use CNC to do the clever bit. As for tool collecting, taking up watchmaking has meant I have been able to collect all sorts of previously unknown tools - the latest being an vintage staking set.
These are quite capable little machines that have enabled a lot of home hobby machinists to have the facility of a mill and lathe at very affordable prices. There would be a lot less people able to afford to enjoy the modelling/machining hobby if it weren't for these cheap import machines being available. Also worthy of mention is the point that great improvement in function and accuracy can be had with a bit of fettling and fine tuning of these cheap,basic machines.
I wonder if sending the noisy gears out to a company that tumble polishes gears would be beneficial to lowering the noise. I know that differential ring and pinions, transmission gears and timing gears are polished with great reductions in friction and noise. Might be worth your time and mental sanity to have done. Let us know if you do it and if you have access to a decibel meter, take before and after readings. Thanks.
I have used the Haas Mini Mill, and because of that, my expectations of what you were going to talk about were way off. That being said, I'm guessing your mill didn't cost $38,000.
I learned CNC on a Haas Mini Mill 18 years ago. One of 2 machines I've seen push the spindle through the tool umbrella (the other was an ancient Mazak). Oh, the memories.
Ahoy Canuckian! Great video! My dad was a machinist post WWII before he became an engineer at U of Tarantah on the Canadian GI Bill (EX RCAF pilot-officer)-John in Texas
Bridgeport Series 1 and 2 universal milling machines have heads that can be tilted side to side and forward/backward. While they can be knocked out of alignment due to hard use, these and similar milling machines have been heavily used by industry for decades. It's a given that any machine that offers the flexibility of a tilting head will need to be trammed in from time to time.
Get a small brass or lead hammer to make adjustments by tapping. The rubber mallet has too much bounce and makes it difficult to judge the proper amount of force.
I'm looking forward to seeing how you get on with that benchtop mill. My 1962 Bridgeport cost me rather less than a decent mini-mill, BUT... I have a large brick-built workshop separate from the house. The noise and cutting fluids, 3 phase power and just the SIZE of the thing makes a big old cast-iron beast like a BP a *terrible* choice for someone based in a spare room or garage. It's all about picking the right tools, and understanding chiploads and feeds and speeds, always considering the effects of backlash and fixing the simple inherent manufacturing defects. I just bought a new CNC mill that weighs 2.5 times as much as the Bridgeport and makes the old BP look tiny, but it's only buying me speed, repeatability and the ability to cut complex compound curves. Most of the parts I make could be machined on a mini-mill and lathe with enough preparation and care and correct tool choices. Maybe not the Titanium parts, and getting a mirror finish on 4140 makes even my 3HP lathe break into a sweat, but hey....
I grant that that the Bridgeport I learned on was old and had wear in the lead screws, but I thought that rule applied to EVERY machine tool -- always back up past the lash distance, and then approach your setting from the same direction. Trying to dial in a position in the other direction means you have no idea where you are. And then lock the setting, so that if the tool generates any forward force, it doesn't bite any deeper than you meant for it too.
I have a Chester Conquest with 19.5" x 6" table & MT3 spindle which is similar to yours. I make lots of parts on it in steel, Ali, brass & plastics.. It is a very capable mill if used properly. Of course it will not hog off large amounts of material but for hobby stuff it is great. Thanks for sharing. ATB regards from the UK
With the Mini-Whatever machines there seems to be a third category besides "Maker" and "Collector". And that is where the lathe itself is the hobby. I have been on the 7x12minilathe group forever and it seems the majority of activity is fixing this or that about the machines. Or making this or that accessory (carriage clamp, chip guard for the back side of the apron, and so forth). It is pretty rare that I see posts about somebody using the machine for an actual project.
I bought a mini lathe to use and I do. It's biggest drawback is depth of cut(material removal) is small due to lack of rigidity. Yep, had ta change the control board and replaced the plastic drive gears so the price ain't mini no more !!
@@practicalplinking6133 The bed part of it is actually rather stout. Most trouble seems to be to be due to the cross slide + compound flexing, and general looseness there. Some lap the dovetails as an improvement. Some remove the compound and replace with a solid block and report it helps. Then there are the many who have changed the headstock bearings to good quality8 tapered roller bearings. Some problems are user caused such as not using sharp enough tool bits, tool bits extending too far from the tool post, or trying to exceed what the low horsepower motor can do.
@@aquilifergroup Although, I don't think that's a bad thing. A hobby can be whatever somebody wants it to be. And they are doing something and learning something outside of looking at TV, smart phones, iPads, etc.
I had an Enco mini mill in my garage in the 80’s, used it for all kinds of hobby projects. Definitely sturdy enough for milling steel, but only after fine tuning/tightening up from factory assembly and not trying to hog all the material off in one pass. Wouldn’t mind having one again.
I have an older Mini Mill and Mini Lathe and I've found, as well as you, - the internet was indeed wrong. They've been extremely useful in doing small machining on steel, aluminum, and other things
You can get packs of shim stock in both brass or steel. The packs come with an assortment of thicknesses and are reasonably priced. Look up industrial suppliers in your area. And yes, feeler gauges make excellent shim stock.
The thing about small mills is plastic gears and low toque. If you stay in parameters and use the correct tools you should be able to cut anything. I have a FADAL 4020, while not a comparison in capability it's more a difference of power. With 22.5HP of direct crazy torque to 10,000RPM with coolant, I can plunge a half inch into Inconel with a 6 flute Harvey II endmill quite fast. I can use the same mill bit in the minimill and machine the same metal, just a lot slower and with more passes or those plastic gears will shred. I have an ACRA knee mill which overall is great for manual machining, it's a Bridgeport style, I'd say truly learning to mill, these smaller machines will let you down a bit.
I got one of these a few years back and have been perfectly happy with it. Keep everything tight and checked and absolutely flood the gearbox with a decent grease. I think I even drilled a grease zirc in to it too. Obviously I don't make things to exacting tolerances, but I fitted a cheap set of DROs to all three axis, a decent Collet chuck, and it does exactly what I want it too. First jobs were making T-Nuts (surprise, surprise) and an Aluminium fixture plate among other things and it has performed extremely well.
@@logangrimnar3800 i don't fully remember the video, but isn't this a new machine? why are they still making them with imperial units? i just bought a desktop cnc and it's metric
@@shambles9Canada is in North America. NAFTA is a thing and the U.S. and Canada do a lot of joint manufacturing and trade. Hence the imperial mini mill being common on N.A. soil
Imperal is way more practical. If you say to someone, "oh its roughly 6 feet" they can picture how long it is...now if you say ohh its roughly 188 centimeters they gonna have a hard time picturing how long that is...i guess it depends on what your used to but i prefer imperal...and im canadian
@@MinatoNamikaze607 strange.. i'm Canadian too (born in Toronto, now live in Vancouver, BC) and i can easily picture 188 cm (easier as ~1.9 m btw), since 95 % of the world already switched to metric, maybe it's time US does too? how much US influence should we take until we're sick of it?
As mentioned below, I run my two small mills and mini lathe in accordance with what they CAN do, not traditionally influenced "expectations". It takes a considerable amount of time to make what I need which is fine. Eg: I don't refer to the graduations marked on handwheels, I measure as I go for example. Allow for a little slip slop slap here and there n bobs your uncle. The odd critical fastener may drop out so have your threadlock compound handy and be prepared to stitch her up properly.
I found that the main drawback of the small machine is column rigidity, not only side to side but fore-aft (from the perspective of operator). To fix mine, I bolted 1/2" aluminum plate to the machine column secured with 4ea 1/2" bolts to the column as well as with the column swivel nut/washer arrangement. Bottom of the plate has a stout aluminum 2x2" angle which ties the vertical plate to an additional 1/2" base plate to which the machine base is bolted. Space between the back of the column and the machine base is filled with a fitted aluminum plate appr. 1/2". Vertical plate holes are a bit oversize to allow tramming left-right. Tramming fore-aft adjusted with a shim. Decent finish when cutting steel with either fly cutter or 1/2" endmill at 0.025 depth of cut. Still stable and in tram after 5 years of use. There are additional updates and tweaks - left-right-axis motor drive, air spring to balance the milling head, larger vertical motion wheel and more accurate single-piece milling head drive. Mechanical indicators on all 3 axes. Much better than original but not a Bridgeport. Alas, no space.
I have both Harbor Freight mini mill and lathe. Installed cheap DRO’s on both and set them up properly. I have done very precise work on both in hard steel, i.e. cut steel 1911 frame for ramped barrel, made gun lock work from A-2 tool steel. The key is light cuts, don’t force it.
These X2 style mills have the DC motor, so you can add a simple DPDT reversing switch, all it does is swap the 2 motor wires over which reverses motor direction. That was one of the best mods I did on my X2 mill, and I even used a DPDT toggle switch with center-off position, perfect for tapping threads in the low speed gear because just with that one switch you can run the spindle forward, stop, reverse, stop etc.
Forewarning: I'm not a machinist, I just took a lot of training for it at the same time as I went through getting a degree in CAD. That being said, just like with full-sized equipment, the biggest limiting factor is the quality of the components/build of the machine. There are definitely mini mills that are built well, and ones that are junk. For example, I have a Grizzly minimill, with some upgrades done to it, and it has served me just as well for the smaller work that I do as the bridgeports that I've used in various shops for big work. Would I use it for production work? No, mostly because a full-size Mill is just built much heftier and so it'll do small to medium jobs with ease and without suffering the same level of wear and tear as a smaller unit. Just the nature of the beast. But for shop work, like gunsmithing jobs or hobbyist/small size projects that I might have to do, the thing is way more than enough, holds the same level of precision as the big boys that I've used, and, with upgrades, has all of the features I need. The only thing i have yet to add that would be nice is an auto-feed. Knee Mills and bench-top mills (minimills) definitely have their place, and they are a huge benefit for anyone that's getting started because they don't take up nearly as much room as a full-size, they're not that costly to get into, and they don't require any special electrical drops or anything like a full-size mill's 440v requirement. So, as long as you're doing your homework, you're investing in a good quality unit, and you know what to look for, no reason not to get one. One other thought on the subject: Before investing in any kind of a Milling Machine, check out your local community college to see if they offer any basic Machine Tooling classes. If they do, sign up for the basic one that covers how to set up and run mills, lathes, etc. to get familiar with the equipment. Also, look at the classes being offered and see if there's a common professor/instructor to all of the courses covering machine tooling. Those guys are usually experienced machinists, and when it comes time to consider a decent Knee/Bench-Top mill, they are an invaluable resource to ask questions of, such as what to look for, what information provided by reviewers and whatnot are legitimate data and what's misinformation/crap, and potentially even if the instructor might know of any good places that sell used equipment. If you cultivate the professor as a resource, their experience on the machines will also mean they may be a good resource to help you figure out upgrades and source (or make) upgraded parts like bushings, bearings, etc. to turn an otherwise passable machine into a fully serviceable unit. Nothing beats experience in that regard.
I have a Grizzly that is very similar to the Central you're showing. I've cut steel, aluminum, plastic and wood with no issue. All that's needed is recognizing what you're working with and adjusting speeds accordingly. Granted, it has a little more backlash than full sized machines but I like mine.
I have the ridgid column version of the Mini Mill. It has been used for years and served me well. A few electrical gremlins sorted out over time, Sieg have a good spares supply in the UK. I put a dro on the Z axis. But never bothered with the x & y axis. I should do, it will be super useful but the space for the encoders is very limited. Any ideas are welcome.
I have a Harbor Freight mini mill and it has proven to be quite useful. I upgraded all the nylon gears (except the easy to replace intermediate gear) with steel ones after I accidentally overloaded it and sheared a bunch of the ones inside the gearbox. I also replaced the original spring loaded arm for the Z axis support with a gas spring support, which gave it slightly more Z travel. At some point I plan to convert it to CNC.
That’s probably a good call. I tried a belt drive modification but my design needs work. Maybe throwing some gears together would be a good interim solution
As far as the noise is concerned, it's the same with any equipment, there is a break in period. Whether you get a new rotary tool, a lawn mower or a new car, there are going to be tiny imperfections in the friction surfaces and with most smaller things you just need to run them under no-load or just a light load for an hour or so to smooth things out and quite them down a bit.
I could understand if the 62.5 thou was a metric to imperial conversion thing but it 1.5875 mm not the 1.5 mm pitch of a course M10 to a fine M16 thread depending on preference, a 1.5 mm pitch is 59.0551 thou so not sure what's going on with that lead screw
They do it to confuse Americans. 😂 It happens because they are using a 16 TPI leadscrew, and 1000 thou ÷ 16 TPI = 0.0625" The mini lathes have the same problem. Remember, American Standard threads use TPI and not the actual thread pitch like Metric threads.
Great video man. I'm happy with my combination bench top lathe/mill. i use it mostly for repairing metal and plastic. I really pushed the mill to the limit by making a anvil out of a rail road track. Only negative was i needed to repair the motor control board as the vibration shook some parts free. No problem im an electronic engineer. Everything works great again. Only thing i plan to do is reinforce the mill column so it doesn't move under load. That does cause problems on precision work with steel.
I have a Sieg mill that had those .0625" per revolution feed screws. The mill was free. I replaced them with kits from an online small hobby machinist company. With the .1" per revolution parts in, it is much more difficult to turn the tiny handwheels. The nut they supply is too small.
I've got a Clarke Mini Mill, it's great. It cuts steel with no problems, just don't expect large cuts. My main tool is a 50mm 4 insert surface cutter, getting the right inserts for the material matters. 6mm and 8mm coated end mills will cut slots in steel in up to 3mm deep passes. My x and y calibration is 1.5mm per handle turn and 1.2 in the z axis, the only problem is the excessive backlash on the z axis slow adjustment. I've fitted a belt drive after breaking 2 sets of nylon gears. It does all the model engineering tasks I want from it.
The Z axis mechanism on these machines is not great (yes I do have one), as you say a lot of backlash. Most fine adjustments take much more turning of knobs than seems acceptable.
The CX612 is the same mill with belt drive and brushless motor. Much more capable, quiet and smooth. Mine came with an R8 spindle so I use R8 collets to gives more vertical clearance and rigidity. I also made a T shaped bolt on plate for the back of the column to disable the pivot and stiffen things up. It can be removed if column pivoting is required. Except for the 62.5 thou dials I have been quite happy with the machine. The column stiffening plate did increase the working capacity quite a bit and reduced the vibration. Cheers: BJ in Ottawa
You show your gauge and saying "this is as close as I could get with the soda-can shims". But since I don't really know what I'm looking at, just how close is that? It looks like .003 but is that across some range of movement? is it plus and minus? Just what is it telling me? Thanks for an interesting video and for helping us learn about mini-mills.
Cool video and good points. I think the smaller machines are great for the home hobbyists and small-scale work--would the bigger heavier duty machines be better? I think so but not everyone has the space/budget/ & or electrical for larger heavier duty machines.
Well said. I know personally I have to carry all my machines up 2 flights of stairs, just a theory but I suspect a full sized cnc mill would make that very difficult!
I have a mini mill from Seig and have had no issues with it . Along with my 7" x 12" mini lathe I have made a Sine bar (With in 1/10,000 of an inch accurate) I've made two fly cutters and yesterday I made an Arbor for a diamond wheel to sharpen my gravers with. I've made other parts that I could have bought but it was more fun to make things and cheaper too.
I bought a mini mill similair to this a few years back. I was satisfied with it, mostly doing small hobby stuff. Its capable of milling steel if you don't want to cut mm's in one go. Unfortunatly the engine gave out, i had not used it very much and it was out of warranty. One of the carbon brushes was detached from its little wire, thats were you see its the cheaper made stuff. The carbon brushes were very hard to get, its a size that is not available at most suppliers. So i bought something larger and custom fitted it. It works but its not running smooth. I found a replacement motor for a reasonable price and that is sitting on the bench waiting to be replaced.
I added a little machine shop upgraded fixed Z column to my now quite old mini mill which gave it more Y travel. I also did the belt drive. The main thing that annoys me about my mill is the controller goes into overcurrent protection very easily. Like drilling aluminum and it will often shut off. I'd replace the motor & controller if there was an inexpensive alternative.
Great video! I’ve been using my Hi Torque Mini Mill for about 10 years now. No issues with holding +\-.002 which has been fine for most of my projects. Taking lite cuts is key to mitigate any flexure, as u don’t have the rigidity of a Bridgeport type mill.
No, see an earlier comment -- 0.0625 is 1/16 inch. The lead screw is 16 TPI. Metric-to-inch mashups would be even messier -- a metric screw with an inch-gradation hand wheel couldn't even have ANY repeating number of thousandths on the hand wheel. Going the other way, a metric handwheel could be installed on a screw measurable in inches, but it'd be a rather offbeat pitch -- for example a wheel giving 5.00 mm/rev (close to a Bridgeport's 0.200") would need a screw pitch of exactly 5.08 TPI. (Which is actually, of course, a metric thread with a pitch of 5 mm/turn, it just happens to be expressible also as an exact TPI pitch if you allow the decimal fraction, because an inch is exactly 25.4 mm.) (That exactness is what makes it possible to fit a lathe with transposing gears that can convert its longitudinal feed between inch pitches and metric pitches. But it does mean you have to include a 127-tooth gear somewhere. Or with a surprisingly small error -- one part in 8000 I think -- you an also use a 63-to-64 pair and avoid the huge gear diameter. Considering that 10-32 screws are usually usable in M5x0.8mm nuts -- a much larger error, #10 diameter being 4.826 mm, almost 0.007" undersize, and 0.8 mm pitch being 31.75 TPI -- the 64:64 approximation ain't bad.)
I got my mini mill from little machine shop and quite honestly use it mostly on hardwoods, aluminum, plastic and brass. fits my needs perfectly. Also make the occasional R/C part as needed (when i break stuff)
I have had one of these for over 10 years. It works really fine for small work, helps to get a cheap DRO for it, since the scales are not any good. Mine is mk2 so I can use the same tools via adaptors as in my larger TOS and Aciera mill. Only use it for 2:nd op setups etc. In Al I have run a small boring head with excellent results. Modifying it with belt drive will give better results. I have always been amazed about the quality and precision of work many modellers do with these inexpensive machines. A skilled machinist can make great results with simple equipment. I would not use it with more than a 6 or max 8 mm mill though for best results. Make a small fly cutter instead. Also trammed and pinned mine permanently, never had the need to tilt the column. It is usually more precise and simpler to use angle blocks, a small rotary table or a sinebar. The vise in vise technique is very useful. I second taking everything apart when buying it and take some time to clean, debur, check and fix issues. I would suggest ER16 collets as a good match.
I think the issue with smaller machines is QA/QC. The mill you bought looks pretty good. You can also buy one and have the ways ground slightly off such that the travel gets tight at one end etc. I had a small 10x22 lathe and had to make several upgrades/modifications in order to handle heavier cuts or using carbide. I dislike straight cut gibs. Felt like I had to constantly re-adjust to maintain precision. Spent years running it making parts before upgrading to a 13x40. So glad I upgraded. I also think it depends what you want to do. I needed bigger machines for larger projects. IMO every garage should at least have a mini mill. So much you can do with x-y-z cutting/drilling/tapping etc.
I think a lot of complaints might just be from people expecting "out of the box" performance. Have to figure that most people buying small machines are likely hobbyists and not professional machinists that know how to take the time to set up the tools. Admittedly build quality is probably not as consistent on really cheap stuff, so always a chance you might get a dud, but sometimes any machine is better than no machine. I'm still hoping to get a lathe one of these days
I am use to a 3 hp Tree mill, and a 7.5 hp lathe. R & D, is fine with the smaller versions. But taking a half inch cut, on the lathe, and hearing the motor begging for mercy, is SOP. But you will never expect that, out of them. And the bigger and heavier the machine, less vibration, and deflection.
Tool collectors are vital in maintaining the time honoured tradition of irritating the beneficiaries of one's will.
Well said, it’s definitely true, I’m certain Mark DeFriest has many choice remarks about tools and wills as well.
My collection of electronic parts, computer chips and cables should also achieve that aim! Better than when we cleared out my late mum's sideboard and threw out her almost worthless wedding presents and some aluminium tea and coffee pots.
I feel called out.
"One day, son, this will all be yours"
*gestures to piles of miscellaneous cräp
i feel bad for whoever inherits my loot pile. i hold onto all the iron i can get my hands on, lol
Running larger equipment can give someone unreasonable expectations of what a small lathe or mill should do. Tiny horsepower and tiny machine means tiny cuts. I have found that having even small machines at home is super useful for DIY project. There are so many things that pop up that could use a spacer or a bushing, a custom over-sized key or just cleaned up on the lathe with a file. And once you have the machines you can use them make parts to make them better. Rock on tiny machine owners.
expectations can easily be exaggerated both on a persons 'real needs' and the output for the investment... I have an even simpler (AKA cheap) 750w pillar drill (yes... drill) and an even cheaper compound base for occasional Aluminium but mostly hard plastics. I don't need anything more than 0.1mm accuracy and i'm super happy with the output. As seen here you can get the most out of anything by clamping stuff down 'PROPERLY' and minimising the slack via the gibs. but above all; keep expectations realistic
exactly why I purchased a mini mill and mini lathe after leaving my previous employer. I had grown accustomed to having access to those machines for personal use, and I missed it. It's so nice to be able to just make simple things that would otherwise be a long wait with shipping costing exponentially more than the price of the material.
THIS ! I am always afraid to let anyone near my small Proma lathe, because they would ram that and went 1.5mm cuts, my poor little boy trembles, when he hears we gon cut steel today.
Exactly, appropriate material, tooling geometry and depth of cut are important. Chip load can't really change much or you're just rubbing and work hardening the material
yes i agree, there are times i would love to have a mini mill and lathe.
but i can not afford the cost of even hf stuff. or make the purchase qualify in my budget.
Got a mini lathe for by 18th birthday. About 5 years later having "basic machining" experience on my resume helped me land my current job where being able to fabricate an occational part on a mill or lathe is an asset.
That’s awesome! It’s an extremely useful skill to have.
Same thing for me! Bought a manual mini metal lathe and brought a machinist hammer into the interview that was .0015 - .002 thou from target dimension. Can't say it landed me a job, but I'd like to believe it did.
Where I'm from you aren't allowed to use a mill or lathe if you aren't properly (officially) trained.
:D
Same here.
I litteraly got my internship over my machine tool restoration project.
Thats how, Keep exploring.!
I bought a mini lathe and found a new hobby: hotrodding my mini lathe! I learned how to lap and scrape ways, made and installed stops, saddle locks, quick release tail stock… the list goes on. Meanwhile, it was capable of really good work. Lest scoffers say I don’t know how well a good machine works, I worked on Hardinge lathes for decades. Clearly, these mini lathes are no match for a hardinge, but they are satisfying in their own right. It’s all about knowing your tools.
Hardinge machines do set high standards. They may spoil you.
I’m glad I learned on a South Bend so I could appreciate a Hardinge’s sheer luxury. As I said before, it’s all about learning and understanding your machine and what’s happening at the sharp end of the tool.
@@trackie1957 When I bought SB was a lot cheaper than chinese, and those lathes were incomprehensible, anyway. Every change in model size was a completely different feature set. SB was more than adequate in the day, and parts are easy to find.
My company scrapped a Hardinge last year. I couldn't get it home, alas but I thank it for all the aeroplane bits it made for me after hours over the years. A lovely lathe, Tough, smooooooth and very, very accurate.
Honestly sounds a lot like my 3D printer habit, er, hobby. Paying premium prices for premium machines gets you one that works without too much fiddling, but cheap machines are less functional tools and more projects to see what sort of ridiculous nonsense you can get up to.
2:25 Use aluminum foil for finetuning. It's about .001", so folding it over a few times can give a good range of thicknesses.
Use feeler gauges as shims. Cheap shims.
Pop cans are .004" and beer cans are usually .002" they are the traditional bike shop shims!
standard aluminum foil is .006
If using it for headgear, remember that it takes at least five layers to block government control signals.
0.006mm, perhaps? Aluminum foil is way thinner than aluminum beverage can sidewalls, which are 0.004” thick.
After my mini mill inevitably broke the gears, I had a great project for the lathe - making aluminum pullies to convert the mill to v-belt drive. Best thing I ever did for the mill. Now it's quiet, runs with less vibration and when I do something stupid, the belt slips instead of it blowing up the gearbox. SO much more pleasant to use. 100% worth doing.
Great video mate - funny and informative. The first mill I ever used (1975 as a 15 year old) was a Deckle FP1 and I had no idea what a milling machine even was until I used that. I went to trade school a few weeks after starting that job (an apprenticeship in Instrument Making) and was asked to make some parts as part of an exercise. They only had old well abused and worn out Bridgeports and I couldn't get a decent finish. I told my instructor "I never have this problem on the mill where I work." so he asked what type it was. When I told him it was a near new Deckle FP1 he looked shocked and replied "They let YOU use a Deckle?!" I felt privileged and insulted all at once.
There was a deckle group here in Toronto. When i was looking for a mill table to use as a welding fixture, I bumped into some of these guys at a machine rebuilder that was retiring out. They tried to give me a similar machine that had two heads and tables, not sure why, and I wish I could have taken it, but I had decided to be satisfied with my Clausing 85XX.
@@tacticalskiffs8134 Using a Deckle mill table as a welding fixture would be like using a Faberge egg as a door stop! But it's a free country.
@@every1665 Free country? Where did you ever get that idea?
Column won't hold tram ? Remove big nut, remove column, Measure holes and bolt diameter sizes, Get on lathe and turn down a sleeve to fit bolt. Make outside diam large enough when in position INSIDE the column in line with the bolt to be in contact with the two inner faces of the column. You will now be tightening the nut up to a solid column instead of tightening up to a hollow structure which can flex, loosening the nut.
Brilliant !
I started out with a harbor freight mini mill and mini lathe when I first got into machining and metal working.
I slowly graduated to slightly larger benchtop machines and ended up with a full sized gunsmithing lathe and a CNC mill.
When I retired, I sold most of my metal working machines thinking I'd no longer have much use for them; boy was I wrong.
I sold off my mini lathe many years ago, but I kept the mini mill all this time. I still own it and I still use it and, I just recently bought another mini lathe.
It's true that they require alot of tuning up to get them to run accurately; or, accurately enough for hobby stuff but, with a little experience under your belt that really isn't that hard to do.
Same boat sold the big mill and lathe and spot welder when I sold the shop. Had to buy replacements not quite as big but still good enough.
It's par for the course.
Minimills are absolutely fine for hobby machining. The main issue you're going to find is that many of the issues brought up are probably with using it for business purposes in mind. As in when someone says it can't be used on steel I have always read that as them saying you can use it but the amount of time is not cost effective. I'd also like to point out that you had it go out of tram on the video and your final test was checking after a clean up pass? Not saying roughing will definately make it go off tram but you basically gave it the easiest tast short of using a 1/8" endmill. Tolerance wise you'll basically be okay as long as you're taking slow small passes and creeping up on it but again this is unnaceptable for job shop type work as it takes far too long. I wan't to stress that I have no issues with mini mills but just remember their scope is very limited.
Good post. I'd like to add that due to the all-in-a-line bolts that connect the z pillar to the x-y table the system is prone to nod in the x axis. At the highest z from the table you sometimes (yes, in my case) .128 +,- from TDC. So you may get ~accurate and small or sloppy and tall, but you will never get accurate and tall. My purchase of one has been a worthwhile learning experience since I came to the trade with no experience at all. If you know nothing and want to learn I wouldn't turn one down if it was given to me like I would now.
Excellent point, for producing parts in a production run it wouldn’t be possible to keep pace with full sized machines. As for the testing I see how that was confusing! I didn’t do any re-alignment after I made the t slot nut so the full scope of the test was the roughing and finishing of the t slot nut, plus the clean up pass, after which there was no shifting. I was mainly curious if there was some weirdness going on from vibrations caused by the larger endmill
I used a Sieg X2D (the fixed Z column version of the mill in the video) to start my business. I built my own cnc conversation using Centroid CNC Acorn and closed loop steppers. I added a belt drive kit and a 1.1kw spindle motor. That little mill allowed me to start my business and get a real foothold. I'm now running a Syil X7 and I'm on my way to saving for a Brother Speedio or something else. Not quite sure yet. Long winded way to say that these little mills are great. Also check out John Grimsmo. He built up from one of these minimills to one of the craziest cnc machine shops I've seen in Canada.
Love to hear the success stories. The whole goal of this video was to show that these are very capable machines so it’s nice to see that I’m not mistaken!
It stands to reason that a small machine can only take small cuts. It's right in the name, it is a mini mill.
What a great video. I have a hefty lathe and an equally hefty miling machine in my workshop.
Recently I helped a customer of mine set up a mini mill very similar to yours. We had exactly the same issue with tramming in both the X&Y axes. Once bolted down we had a go at milling some small blocks of alloy and steel, and I was surprised at how good it was.
My machines are capable of taking 3-5mm cuts in hard steel if need be, but on a mini mill or lathe that's impossible. Light cuts should be the order of the day. I found that on the mini mill 20 thou was about the maximum on steel, and about 40 thou on alloy
I think that a lot of people who slag off such machines are simply taking cuts that are too heavy, and all machines have a limit as to how much they can handle. A bad workman blames his tools etc.
I have a CX-605 as well, had it for a few years now. I fixed the "noise" issue by changing the gear sets from plastic to cast gears* (*little machine shop) and using a good high pressure grease cut the racket down with good results. I don't have a tramming issue, I think because I literally stripped the machine down scrubbed the packing grease off of every mating surface. I also have a CX-708 Lathe which has been working without issue, it too was noisy but changing the oil and adding Lucas Oil treatment to the gear box make an amazing difference. Great video thanks for the share!
Changed my plastic gears to brass gears that I cut myself using a hardened silver steel hob ( Rack type cutting edges, not spiral, dimensions in handbook) and a dividing head, (40 to 1 ratio) then I made myself a full set of plates that I drilled myself, (Hole positions on internet, done on Milling Machine). Also replaced the plastic change gears with brass and aluminium on the mini lathe,
It seems to me (admittedly not a machinist, just curious) that the smaller machines offer a cheaper solution if you are willing to input labor to offset the price/space requirements. Which is why it appears to be more popular among hobbyists or those with small needs. Those who need these machines daily cannot afford 'extra' time each go to ensure everything is square. Which is a fair assessment. I think it would be beneficial to actually see the labor you, or others like the video author, ACTUALLY put into improving the performance of these machines. Like when the author admits he needed to tighten down the platform more.
When buying these machines, it is IMPORTANT to understand that all the castings are finish cut in one go.
Consequently, they are ALL warped.
When one side is cut, the stresses are released, and the metal changes shape.
After initial cutting, the casting should be left to warp, and then be final machined.
Therefore, the first task, is to determine the best datum surfaces to make flat, and then get everything square.
Ideally you need another milling machine, but I re-engineered mine with a surface plate, 4mm float glass, and a large variety of abrasives.
... It was a huge task.
Don't forget to 'grind in' the circular pivot bearing surface to the pillar.
This enables the pillar to be clamped solid.
Prior to assembly, you will need to add rigidity.
Add two bolts to the base, just past the '3 screw fulcrum point' on the pivot block, so that the base has four bolts around the fulcrum point.
The three screws, are almost inline, providing limited rigidity (considering the pillar and head, are flexing around the 3 screw fulcrum point).
On the pivot block, there is only space for two additional 6mm screws (so use hardened screws).
I added concrete to the pillar, to add mass.
Finally; cast a concrete base.
I embedded a pre-cast flat cement garden slab for the mounting surface, and rub ground the base to the slab.
This is a lot of work, but you end up with a proper milling machine for a cost of just £750
Obviously, having another mill, and a surface grinder, would make this work a simple task :)
Exactly why people should seek an old Clausing or similar mill. At least he has a dovetail column. The round ones are near useless.
Did you watch the Video?
Now, THAT would make a great video! You could really contribute to RUclips if you had a channel. I really don't know if you have a channel of your own or not. I am serious though when I say that you should think about becoming a RUclips creator, I'd watch your video's!
Absolutely what this man said!!!
I had to true up mine out of the box.
I ran one of these for about a decade. Did tons of upgrades including stretching the Y axis, stiffening, and making it CNC. Sure X2 mills can make parts, but it has serious limitations. I regretted not saving a bit more to get a heavier machine with a couple inches longer travels on Y&Z.
Yeah that is very fair. I’m lucky enough that 95% of what I make fits in the x2 work envelope, and the other 5% can usually be adjusted with a few hours (days) in the CAD model. It is nice to hear that my take on these things isn’t completely coming out of left field though!
What do you think is a good starting size now? Tormach 770 level?
I have machining experience (and a much larger lathe and mill in my garage) and 15 years ago or so bought a Chinese mini-lathe and mini-mill similarly "just to see what they were all about." There are a wide range of opinions from "works fine for me" to "these can be viewed as a kit and you have to fix and improve almost everything." I think this variance is due to a variability in the quality machine to machine, and a variability in expectations. This is the first such machine for many and they don't know what a good quality machine is like. Others DO have experience and can spot the limitations and instantly realize why there is chatter when maybe there shouldn't be and so forth.
I agree completely. If ever someone wants to get into machining I always tell them the best quality and the biggest you can handle! Generally the jobs you pick up or tasks you pick up will be determined by machine size specifically with smaller machines. The smaller stuff generally will have issues though where everything needs to be corrected. Not always but a good chunk. Staying within the capabilities of the smaller machines are important as well even though on a bigger machine those capabilities are generally more maximized.
I have a mini mill and never had a problem. Nothing ever moved and I was able take deep cuts in material with no chatter in aluminum and steel. You just need a basic idea of speeds and feeds, upgrade to a belt drive, and get something better than a screwless vise. Also using industry grade cutters make a big difference. The only limitation I still hit was the size material I can hold in it. So quick cuts I need generally work out, but larger parts I go use a friend's Bridgeport like when I made an exhaust spacer. But I was able to take about an inch depth of cut on aluminum with my mini mill and nothing ever chattered or moved.
I suspect it also makes a huge difference just who you bought it from - the crap castings and terrible finishing on some of them may have started at the same foundry as the good ones. But they could for instance be the quality control rejects from the places that sell reasonably good machines being sold on by somebody else etc... I know my mini mill has a surprisingly good spindle (at least for what it is) but the table is pretty terrible - probably salvageable but I've not really got around to invesitaging that.
agreed. i'm a musician and i've had my 6-string electric bass for almost a decade now. i was working at a music shop, and the owner was a bass player, so we had everything from beginner models to $8000 6 string Zons. none of them felt right.
then one day, i unpacked an LTD D6. it was magic, effortless, just...unreal. AND it was the cheapest 6 string we sold, it listed for $500. and i can almost guarantee the next one off the assembly line played like shit haha
hahaha.
people who use one of these. mills with the rotation of the tool instead of against. ( like it has a ballscrew without backlash, )and then look weird that their tool is destroyed or the surface is shitty and inaccurate.
Hello I am a full time machinist and it seems like these days the #1 question I get from hobbyists is "are these mini machines any good". The answer to that is "If you work within their capabilities, and if they meet your needs."
You gotta remember that a full time machinist is not a maker in a garage who can spend an hour making a single T nut by cutting off .010" at a time because they are doing it for fun. A machinist who wants to keep their job needs to be pushing the envelope of what any machine can handle. Most of us don't like standing there watching the machine make chips on a single part all day which many makers seem to be OK with. We want to get it over with and go on to the next thing.
So that is why they are unpopular with professional machinists. We look at them from a different mindset with a different set of expectations. They take up 75% the floor space as a Bridgeport and have maybe 5% of the capability. A maker would consider a Bridgeport to be a heavy duty large machine. A machinist considers a Bridgeport to be a small, light duty machine that is not very rigid, but is very versatile.
There are desktop mills out there that can take 3/8x1/2" cuts in steel with no problems. I would be interested to see if yours could do that and get any reasonable surface finish.
I agree.
Unfortunately, the best table top mills are very expensive vs used manual full size mills and most people don't have space for a Bridgeport 3 phase 2 HP mill. I have used a full size Bridgeport at work and miss it, but don't have room. Comparing prices- a used full size mill is a better deal if the buyer has space and knows how to check the machine and set up in his shop
Toolamker for over 50 years (Well, I didn't START as a Toolmaker!). It warms my heart to see a newcomer such as yourself with such a positive attitude and the ability to address the small deficiencies in an inexpensive machine. One suggestion is to find a REAL Milling Vise rather trhna a Toolmakers vice.. (although for the work that you're doing, should suffice). In five years you'll be amazed at your skil sets. Keep on. There are millions of tools and parts that are well within your capabilities. Those Capabilities will only increase with time. Very nice.Best to you!
Thank you for the encouragement! I figure a good attitude and willingness to learn is always a good place to start. I’ll be sure to keep an eye out for a proper vice!
When I try to run my mini mill like I run my bridgeport I get crummy results. When I run my mini mill with responsible feeds, speeds, cutter size, and DOC for the machine, I get fantastic results in even very hard materials.
Turns out basic machining fundamentals don't care how big the machine is.
Keep up the great work!
I don't know much about machining, but I have a pretty serious background in electronic and physical/dimensional calibration. I knew right off the bat that you were going to get better results just from a thorough setup. It is also worth mentioning that over time parts will wear, and temp/humidity will change and cause variations, meaning you'll have to occasionally go back through the setup.
the best addition will be a stiffening plate at the back of the column, and then a 3 axis DRO - this will cost you about $ 250 in LED or about $300 in LCD, both with scales to fit your mill. I have made a polyVee drive myself and do not regret it - there are instructions on youtube and the internet as how to do it. Another tip I can give is to 'cap' the drawbar and give it a square end - a spanner is way more easy on the spindle bearings than a hammer to loosen the MT3 tapers, and a spring loaded spindle stop will be a nice addition too.
I did the stiffening plate too. Had to tap a bolt hole at the back of the frame, and in the column, but that is a lot better than having a colmn shift totally mess up a work.
These machines are made by more than one company and the quality can vary. Don't buy from the cheapest supplier and try to get a look at the machines before you buy. Both the lathes and the mills are quite capable machines within their size limitations. The main thing I don't like on some of the lathes is where they only have a limited range of belt changes and rely on an electronic speed control. One idea to increase the friction on the tilting column would be to fit a paper gasket. This is also a useful trick to help a job have a good grip on the table or vice face.
He’s in Canada and unfortunately we have fewer choices in suppliers, unless you want to pay a little extra to import something (which I did).
If you ever break the nylon gear, just 3D print a replacement. PLA works just fine. I havent broken the gear again. But it is a mechanical fuse. So im not worried if it does.
Nylon print is better.
I have both a mini lathe and mini Mill. Both have worked great. Recently I am creating an open view case for a Ford Escort Transaxle for illustrative purposes at car shows. Have had to cut perfect holes in plate steel for five bearing races. The mini Mill along with a rotary table mounted to it has done the job beautifully. The races fit snug with no play. When holding the race in the hole I can barley see any light coming through the circumference. All done without a DRO ( Digital Read Out). There's a technique to it, but once you get that down the holes are perfect. Nice thing also is when I cut a hole I also get a perfect circle of steel to make gears out of for a later project. It's not necessary to cut a center hole in the circle Plug but I do anyway. That way if I do use the plug for a gear it already has a perfectly centered hole for a drive shaft with no run-out. ALL DONE ON A MINI MILLING MACHINE! I will say this though...when I received my Harbor Freight mini Mill there was a broken wire in the switch box I had to repair to get it to turn on.
glad to see im not the only one with the idea that tools are what you make of them not what they are out of a box.
Correct. Remember, and acknowledge, that all the magic is in the operator, not the machine.
nothing beats something made for the job,
i always look at "off the shelf" as it'll do for now lol
Artist makes art not the paintbrush. Although better brushes make things easier.
i always laugh when i go to a job and they say "no modified tools" literally every single thing I own besides a few socket sets have been modified to some degree
I've had one of these machines for about 20 years now. After using it for a while with the gear drive supplied I changed to belt drive (bought as a kit) and I think it was really worth the conversion, much smoother running. I find that it max's out at about a 10 mm (3/8") end mill or slot drill for normal cutting work (but usually stick to 6 mm /1/4") and 12 mm (1/2") for light surfacing.
Had my mini mill now for many years. Mods- gas strut alongside the column to prevent spindle dropping, changed the gears for drive belt, both make it much nicer to use. Yes I use the jacobs chuck a lot for most things, accurate enough for what I use it for on daily basis.
Nice test, thank you. Your mill and your cutters would really enjoy some cutting oil though. 😊
Best tiny machines imo have been a sub $300 3D printer, and a multiprocess 120/230 ESAB welder. Professional welder/fabricator turned local 396 ironworker apprentice. Looking to get a little millwright station like this in the future, this was a phenomenal video, thank you!!
I have one. As benchdrill, its really good (compared to drill). As mill, it has several weakness 1) not stiff enough 2) power (electronic speed contol is weak in low RPM, not much torque) 3) size, its impossible to put parts under cutter because there is not enough room. But if you do small parts, its OK.
Hi mate. Just to let you know, At 7:37 you've missed noticing the small dial on your dial gauge, the tram is actually out by 100 thou.
You'd be amazed what I did on a tiny Unimat back in the '60s. I once made a new crankshaft for a model aircraft engine on it, using a bit of scrap axle shaft from a truck. Yes it took ages, but I got there. I have a bigger lathe now (4 1/2" Boxford), but I still use the little Unimat for really tiny parts.... the very high spindle speeds available are very useful when machining things often less than 1/16" diameter. Horses for courses. I have a light milling machine now too when I say light, it weighs 500kgs!) that is remarably capable. Geared head (a bit noisy) and 2 axis DRO. For the money it's a good machine.
You get what you pay for with machinery of all sorts, and the ultra precision machines are way beyond affordable for most of us. Any half way decent machinist should be able to work to closer tolerances than those on the machines he/she is using......
I've done maintenance work for the cousin of my mothers 1960's Unimat. Good machines!
great humor, solid insight and great attitude! which all made for a great video, subscribed!
Haha, I was practially halfway through my comment about the jacobs chuck. Good stuff dude!
On those machines, if the tilting head is that much of an issue, since 0 degrees would be the must used position, couldn't one set a good 0 (and or other useful angles) and then drill an indexing hole for a removable pin ?
I mean if you need 31 odd degrees or something, sure you will have to make sure it is not shifting during by taking lighter passes, but otherwise it some indexing holes sounds like a good solution to still have the potential of the tilting head and the piece of mind for regular jobs. It would also make make resetting the head easier after the occasional odd job, so less reason to procrastinate doing it.
Am I missing something that would make it impractical, appart from the difficulty of drilling the hole in the first place ?
Instead of making "soda can" shims, I would go to an auto parts store and grab a set of feeler gauges, take them apart, and you have everything from .001 to .100.
Or, how about just buying some proper shim stock.
You're going to end up with a million subs. You've got what it takes: Great video and audio quality, top notch script writing, narration, pace, editing, humor. The whole nine yards. Thumbs and subs.
Thanks for your support! Glad you enjoyed the video!
In my opinion, a 'small' branded mill or lathe can be a valued asset to a garage/hobbyist's shop. At 65 I had more time to play with projects. Was intimidated by the thoughts of adding larger/heavier/costlier machines to my small shop. For a bit over $3,000 both machines were added to my workspace, positioned and secured by myself. Now instead of +/- 1/32 I can easily work to +/- .001. Tooling costs continue but it has all been worth it.
I follow the BerylCNC mantra of "light cuts" on any of this Chinese mini machinery. It's simple physics - the smaller the area of a given pressure, the higher the force on the material. So if you use sharp carbide and take a light cut, you'll push your cutting force up into the range of the "production machines". If you're making prototypes or one-offs, these machines can work great. Also helps to not trash up your good machines on sketchy jobs, so they are good for that too.
I just love the ti-83plus in the intro
Retired machinist, looking to set up a small home shop to tinker a bit. My complaint is price, why should I pay more than a used 2 phase industrial knee mill or turret lathe in good shape, just to have greatly reduced capacity?
I agree that prices for the Chinese hobby machines are too expensive for what the buyer obtains. Unfortunately, price of a newly manufactured hobby machines of good quality would not sell well enough.
An experienced machinist would be able to determine the condition of a used machine. Not so for beginners.
One big problem for many is the lack of space for full size machines.
Much like the complainers you are describing, an entertaining time can be had by going to Amazon and looking for various mechanical things, and then reading the reviews. Not the 5 star, the one star reviews. This is where those folks that could break an anvil reside. One of my favorites, a simple plastic hang up hook for an old school telephone handset, the kind you would use in a factory or office environment where you wanted to put the handset up and safely out of the way, but not hang up the phone while you did something else for a moment. Obvious for what it was supposed to do, and it had two holes in it to mount it to some surface. It got a one star review because, "Did not come with installation instructions."
Reviews for a 2-component epoxy resin from a very renowned company on Amazon:
- one key property for this resin was the long open time of 45 minutes. Review "Takes forever to harden. Am I supposed to hold the parts for an hour? Worst glue I have ever used."
- the resin/hardener was to be mixed 1:1 by volume. Review: "I mixed it 1:1 by weight and now all is sticky and won't harden completely. I have to throw away my project. Why didn't the manufacturer provide mixing ratios by weight?" Well, they did in the MSD, which was readily available on the manufacturer's web site. Which other company does even provide an MSD for epoxy resin at all? Besides, because the bottles for resin and hardener were the same size, it would have been trivial to just weight both and to find out that their specific weight is different and therefore you cannot mix them 1:1 by weight.
But that would be accepting responsibility for your own mistakes.
Yes, sort from worse and look for patterns. But first, eliminate the stupid user errors. The ID-10-T errors, the loose nut behind the keyboard errors!
agreed. i have the harbor freight one and once i completely dismantled it, cleaned it, smoothed rough edges, lubed, assembled, and adjusted it, i have been getting excellent results. yes, you cannot take as deep a cut as on a $5k machine but then, you do not need 3 phase power and a huge space either. i would not use these for mass production business but they are perfect for hobby and small parts machining.
Happy to hear you’ve had good luck! Yeah definitely easier to fit one of these things into a shop. I have to hand carry all my tools down a flight of stairs which makes getting a full size mill a bit of a challenge haha
@@Someone_Should_Make_That yup, i am in the basement which makes a large mill, which is what i learned on, impossible too. i have a 9x20 lathe too that i love. the key to chinese machine tools it to think of them as a kit. dismantle, clean, finish, assemble, adjust, and you will have an awesome machine for a lot less cost. of course costs are going to jump drastically again very soon.
You probably did far more initial setup than 99.9 % of the complainers.
Initial setup is important, if not crucial.
People who don’t have experience. Will expect way more than the majority of these small mills can comfortably handle. The rule is , clamp heavy cut light. With patience you can do impressive work on a small machine.
I’m sure of that.
And why, pray tell, should the purchaser be expected to loosen major parts of the assembly to make it level or true or whatever? You can screw around like that if you want to Sparky but I'm not interested.
Because, perchance, they make them adjustable for a reason, and its almost like every piece of machinery trusts that the user will have to do some amount of adjustment to make it accurate, curious. Not everything is self-levelling, and hell, most entry level 3d printers require you to do manual bed leveling but you don't see anyone complaining about that do you...
My brushless mill is super smooth and quiet, maybe I lucked out, I’m in Canada and got it at Busy Bee Tools, was able to tram mine super close too, almost dead on, as close as I need it for sure. I’m thinking same rebranded mill as other sellers have, anyway more than happy with it for a hobby mill. My lathe needed more cleanup on some rough edges, replaced a few crappy cap screws with good ones, spent some time with motor alignment and now happy with it too, w other the price to me for sure.
you won me over with the maker-v-tool collector bit hahah
Thanks for looking into this!
As a scale model builder, I'm currently at that point as well and I want to get something that can work on plastic, but also brass and aluminium, like for internal skeletons on larger models to eliminate parts sagging over the years.
You need to drill and ream a tapered hole to the base of that vertical column. Tram it level, then just drill and ream the tapered hole. Fit a tapered pin, tap it in, head square and physically prevented from drifting. French Huron Mills had this, great method....🤔😳😏🇬🇧
I bought a mini mill (rebranded) from a local provider where I think they do some basic QC checking on the ones they order.
Mine is the exact same model as yours.
There's always an initial setup time in getting everything perfectly square although mine was dead on left to right (only .001" over the whole length) and only had about .004" front to back which was fixed by shimming under the tower where it connects to the base.
That was about 6 years ago and since then it has been invaluable for me in getting projects done, I use it also for my knife making sometimes and it's all around a great tool.
Just like others said, don't expect to be hogging off 1/4" chunks with a small mill like this. Usually i don't go over .030" if I want to remove material quickly. If not I usually just take half that if I'm not in a hurry.
But to be fair, you probably could get away with hogging off .060" with a quality face mill as long as you have everything else set up very rigid and the mill tuned to eliminate any play.
The great thing about these machines is that you can improve them by making new components with these machines.
About 10 years ago I bought a Sieg SX2p - this is like the SX2, but with an larger table, and brushless DC motor/belt drive.
I got fed up cranking the x axis, so decided to motorise it. The cheap way was a stepper motor+driver+spare PC+linuxCNC. It worked great, but tempted me to do a similar job on the y axis. Once I had done that I got a large circular slab of aluminium for use as a high vacuum baseplate and trepanned a hole for fitting a diffusion pump. linxCNC meant I could mill a nice circle, but I still had to feed the zed axis manually. So, I CNC-d the z-axis. I then added an A-axis, and cut some gears.
A mini-mill is very useful in a home workshop, and can do many things so long as cuts are small enough. With CNC and a camera/display for monitoring progress while one relaxes in an armchair with a beer or La Tache '90 the cuts can be extremely fine, but relaxing (yes - I know from experience!).
But I have learned lessons - and am now returning crank handles to the axes - but using rotary encoders - to produce the intuitive feel of a conventional mill. I am doing the same with my lathe, and will be able to discard my compound and use CNC to do the clever bit.
As for tool collecting, taking up watchmaking has meant I have been able to collect all sorts of previously unknown tools - the latest being an vintage staking set.
These are quite capable little machines that have enabled a lot of home hobby machinists to have the facility of a mill and lathe at very affordable prices. There would be a lot less people able to afford to enjoy the modelling/machining hobby if it weren't for these cheap import machines being available.
Also worthy of mention is the point that great improvement in function and accuracy can be had with a bit of fettling and fine tuning of these cheap,basic machines.
I wonder if sending the noisy gears out to a company that tumble polishes gears would be beneficial to lowering the noise. I know that differential ring and pinions, transmission gears and timing gears are polished with great reductions in friction and noise. Might be worth your time and mental sanity to have done. Let us know if you do it and if you have access to a decibel meter, take before and after readings. Thanks.
I have used the Haas Mini Mill, and because of that, my expectations of what you were going to talk about were way off. That being said, I'm guessing your mill didn't cost $38,000.
I learned CNC on a Haas Mini Mill 18 years ago. One of 2 machines I've seen push the spindle through the tool umbrella (the other was an ancient Mazak). Oh, the memories.
Ahoy Canuckian! Great video! My dad was a machinist post WWII before he became an engineer at U of Tarantah on the Canadian GI Bill (EX RCAF pilot-officer)-John in Texas
Bridgeport Series 1 and 2 universal milling machines have heads that can be tilted side to side and forward/backward. While they can be knocked out of alignment due to hard use, these and similar milling machines have been heavily used by industry for decades. It's a given that any machine that offers the flexibility of a tilting head will need to be trammed in from time to time.
Get a small brass or lead hammer to make adjustments by tapping. The rubber mallet has too much bounce and makes it difficult to judge the proper amount of force.
I loved the "legal disclaimer." 🤣
I'm looking forward to seeing how you get on with that benchtop mill. My 1962 Bridgeport cost me rather less than a decent mini-mill, BUT... I have a large brick-built workshop separate from the house. The noise and cutting fluids, 3 phase power and just the SIZE of the thing makes a big old cast-iron beast like a BP a *terrible* choice for someone based in a spare room or garage. It's all about picking the right tools, and understanding chiploads and feeds and speeds, always considering the effects of backlash and fixing the simple inherent manufacturing defects. I just bought a new CNC mill that weighs 2.5 times as much as the Bridgeport and makes the old BP look tiny, but it's only buying me speed, repeatability and the ability to cut complex compound curves. Most of the parts I make could be machined on a mini-mill and lathe with enough preparation and care and correct tool choices. Maybe not the Titanium parts, and getting a mirror finish on 4140 makes even my 3HP lathe break into a sweat, but hey....
You should always mill in the same direction. This will compensate for any play in your milling table X and Y screws.
I grant that that the Bridgeport I learned on was old and had wear in the lead screws, but I thought that rule applied to EVERY machine tool -- always back up past the lash distance, and then approach your setting from the same direction. Trying to dial in a position in the other direction means you have no idea where you are.
And then lock the setting, so that if the tool generates any forward force, it doesn't bite any deeper than you meant for it too.
I have a Chester Conquest with 19.5" x 6" table & MT3 spindle which is similar to yours. I make lots of parts on it in steel, Ali, brass & plastics.. It is a very capable mill if used properly. Of course it will not hog off large amounts of material but for hobby stuff it is great. Thanks for sharing. ATB regards from the UK
With the Mini-Whatever machines there seems to be a third category besides "Maker" and "Collector". And that is where the lathe itself is the hobby. I have been on the 7x12minilathe group forever and it seems the majority of activity is fixing this or that about the machines. Or making this or that accessory (carriage clamp, chip guard for the back side of the apron, and so forth). It is pretty rare that I see posts about somebody using the machine for an actual project.
😂. The lathe itself is the hobby. I’ve never heard it put that way. It’s true though
I bought a mini lathe to use and I do. It's biggest drawback is depth of cut(material removal) is small due to lack of rigidity. Yep, had ta change the control board and replaced the plastic drive gears so the price ain't mini no more !!
Haha very true! I definitely also fall into this category from time to time. It’s fun to go down the improvement rabbit hole
@@practicalplinking6133 The bed part of it is actually rather stout. Most trouble seems to be to be due to the cross slide + compound flexing, and general looseness there. Some lap the dovetails as an improvement. Some remove the compound and replace with a solid block and report it helps. Then there are the many who have changed the headstock bearings to good quality8 tapered roller bearings. Some problems are user caused such as not using sharp enough tool bits, tool bits extending too far from the tool post, or trying to exceed what the low horsepower motor can do.
@@aquilifergroup Although, I don't think that's a bad thing. A hobby can be whatever somebody wants it to be. And they are doing something and learning something outside of looking at TV, smart phones, iPads, etc.
I had an Enco mini mill in my garage in the 80’s, used it for all kinds of hobby projects. Definitely sturdy enough for milling steel, but only after fine tuning/tightening up from factory assembly and not trying to hog all the material off in one pass. Wouldn’t mind having one again.
The haters simply don't know how to adjust and tune their machines
I have an older Mini Mill and Mini Lathe and I've found, as well as you, - the internet was indeed wrong. They've been extremely useful in doing small machining on steel, aluminum, and other things
could you use feeler gauges as shim stock?
You can get packs of shim stock in both brass or steel. The packs come with an assortment of thicknesses and are reasonably priced. Look up industrial suppliers in your area. And yes, feeler gauges make excellent shim stock.
Sure! This is why you can buy the same material in coils :)
This actually sounds like genius
This is awesome, I'm glad I've found your channel. Thanks for the content!
The thing about small mills is plastic gears and low toque. If you stay in parameters and use the correct tools you should be able to cut anything. I have a FADAL 4020, while not a comparison in capability it's more a difference of power. With 22.5HP of direct crazy torque to 10,000RPM with coolant, I can plunge a half inch into Inconel with a 6 flute Harvey II endmill quite fast. I can use the same mill bit in the minimill and machine the same metal, just a lot slower and with more passes or those plastic gears will shred. I have an ACRA knee mill which overall is great for manual machining, it's a Bridgeport style, I'd say truly learning to mill, these smaller machines will let you down a bit.
I got one of these a few years back and have been perfectly happy with it. Keep everything tight and checked and absolutely flood the gearbox with a decent grease. I think I even drilled a grease zirc in to it too.
Obviously I don't make things to exacting tolerances, but I fitted a cheap set of DROs to all three axis, a decent Collet chuck, and it does exactly what I want it too.
First jobs were making T-Nuts (surprise, surprise) and an Aluminium fixture plate among other things and it has performed extremely well.
why do you use imperial? it's 2024!!! and you're in Canada!!!!!!
Because machining is usually done in imperial. The dials are all set for thousandths of an inch.
@@logangrimnar3800 i don't fully remember the video, but isn't this a new machine? why are they still making them with imperial units? i just bought a desktop cnc and it's metric
@@shambles9Canada is in North America. NAFTA is a thing and the U.S. and Canada do a lot of joint manufacturing and trade. Hence the imperial mini mill being common on N.A. soil
Imperal is way more practical. If you say to someone, "oh its roughly 6 feet" they can picture how long it is...now if you say ohh its roughly 188 centimeters they gonna have a hard time picturing how long that is...i guess it depends on what your used to but i prefer imperal...and im canadian
@@MinatoNamikaze607 strange.. i'm Canadian too (born in Toronto, now live in Vancouver, BC) and i can easily picture 188 cm (easier as ~1.9 m btw), since 95 % of the world already switched to metric, maybe it's time US does too? how much US influence should we take until we're sick of it?
As mentioned below, I run my two small mills and mini lathe in accordance with what they CAN do, not traditionally influenced "expectations".
It takes a considerable amount of time to make what I need which is fine.
Eg: I don't refer to the graduations marked on handwheels, I measure as I go for example. Allow for a little slip slop slap here and there n bobs your uncle.
The odd critical fastener may drop out so have your threadlock compound handy and be prepared to stitch her up properly.
I found that the main drawback of the small machine is column rigidity, not only side to side but fore-aft (from the perspective of operator). To fix mine, I bolted 1/2" aluminum plate to the machine column secured with 4ea 1/2" bolts to the column as well as with the column swivel nut/washer arrangement. Bottom of the plate has a stout aluminum 2x2" angle which ties the vertical plate to an additional 1/2" base plate to which the machine base is bolted. Space between the back of the column and the machine base is filled with a fitted aluminum plate appr. 1/2". Vertical plate holes are a bit oversize to allow tramming left-right. Tramming fore-aft adjusted with a shim. Decent finish when cutting steel with either fly cutter or 1/2" endmill at 0.025 depth of cut. Still stable and in tram after 5 years of use.
There are additional updates and tweaks - left-right-axis motor drive, air spring to balance the milling head, larger vertical motion wheel and more accurate single-piece milling head drive. Mechanical indicators on all 3 axes. Much better than original but not a Bridgeport. Alas, no space.
I have both Harbor Freight mini mill and lathe. Installed cheap DRO’s on both and set them up properly. I have done very precise work on both in hard steel, i.e. cut steel 1911 frame for ramped barrel, made gun lock work from A-2 tool steel. The key is light cuts, don’t force it.
These X2 style mills have the DC motor, so you can add a simple DPDT reversing switch, all it does is swap the 2 motor wires over which reverses motor direction.
That was one of the best mods I did on my X2 mill, and I even used a DPDT toggle switch with center-off position, perfect for tapping threads in the low speed gear because just with that one switch you can run the spindle forward, stop, reverse, stop etc.
the little machine shop belt conversion kit is absolutely a must for these. as is the head airspring kit.
Forewarning: I'm not a machinist, I just took a lot of training for it at the same time as I went through getting a degree in CAD. That being said, just like with full-sized equipment, the biggest limiting factor is the quality of the components/build of the machine. There are definitely mini mills that are built well, and ones that are junk.
For example, I have a Grizzly minimill, with some upgrades done to it, and it has served me just as well for the smaller work that I do as the bridgeports that I've used in various shops for big work. Would I use it for production work? No, mostly because a full-size Mill is just built much heftier and so it'll do small to medium jobs with ease and without suffering the same level of wear and tear as a smaller unit. Just the nature of the beast.
But for shop work, like gunsmithing jobs or hobbyist/small size projects that I might have to do, the thing is way more than enough, holds the same level of precision as the big boys that I've used, and, with upgrades, has all of the features I need. The only thing i have yet to add that would be nice is an auto-feed.
Knee Mills and bench-top mills (minimills) definitely have their place, and they are a huge benefit for anyone that's getting started because they don't take up nearly as much room as a full-size, they're not that costly to get into, and they don't require any special electrical drops or anything like a full-size mill's 440v requirement.
So, as long as you're doing your homework, you're investing in a good quality unit, and you know what to look for, no reason not to get one.
One other thought on the subject: Before investing in any kind of a Milling Machine, check out your local community college to see if they offer any basic Machine Tooling classes. If they do, sign up for the basic one that covers how to set up and run mills, lathes, etc. to get familiar with the equipment. Also, look at the classes being offered and see if there's a common professor/instructor to all of the courses covering machine tooling. Those guys are usually experienced machinists, and when it comes time to consider a decent Knee/Bench-Top mill, they are an invaluable resource to ask questions of, such as what to look for, what information provided by reviewers and whatnot are legitimate data and what's misinformation/crap, and potentially even if the instructor might know of any good places that sell used equipment.
If you cultivate the professor as a resource, their experience on the machines will also mean they may be a good resource to help you figure out upgrades and source (or make) upgraded parts like bushings, bearings, etc. to turn an otherwise passable machine into a fully serviceable unit. Nothing beats experience in that regard.
I have a Grizzly that is very similar to the Central you're showing. I've cut steel, aluminum, plastic and wood with no issue. All that's needed is recognizing what you're working with and adjusting speeds accordingly. Granted, it has a little more backlash than full sized machines but I like mine.
I have the ridgid column version of the Mini Mill. It has been used for years and served me well. A few electrical gremlins sorted out over time, Sieg have a good spares supply in the UK.
I put a dro on the Z axis. But never bothered with the x & y axis. I should do, it will be super useful but the space for the encoders is very limited.
Any ideas are welcome.
I have a Harbor Freight mini mill and it has proven to be quite useful. I upgraded all the nylon gears (except the easy to replace intermediate gear) with steel ones after I accidentally overloaded it and sheared a bunch of the ones inside the gearbox. I also replaced the original spring loaded arm for the Z axis support with a gas spring support, which gave it slightly more Z travel. At some point I plan to convert it to CNC.
That’s probably a good call. I tried a belt drive modification but my design needs work. Maybe throwing some gears together would be a good interim solution
As far as the noise is concerned, it's the same with any equipment, there is a break in period. Whether you get a new rotary tool, a lawn mower or a new car, there are going to be tiny imperfections in the friction surfaces and with most smaller things you just need to run them under no-load or just a light load for an hour or so to smooth things out and quite them down a bit.
I could understand if the 62.5 thou was a metric to imperial conversion thing but it 1.5875 mm not the 1.5 mm pitch of a course M10 to a fine M16 thread depending on preference, a 1.5 mm pitch is 59.0551 thou so not sure what's going on with that lead screw
16 threads per inch. A pity they don't use 20 tpi for the US market. That would give a more practical .050 inch per turn.
Is the fact that 0.0625" = 1/16" relevant/helpful?
I was looking to see if someone had
Commented the metric conversion before I worked it out myself
They do it to confuse Americans. 😂 It happens because they are using a 16 TPI leadscrew, and 1000 thou ÷ 16 TPI = 0.0625"
The mini lathes have the same problem. Remember, American Standard threads use TPI and not the actual thread pitch like Metric threads.
It's a fractional wheel ... 16 turns per inch exactly :)
Great video man. I'm happy with my combination bench top lathe/mill. i use it mostly for repairing metal and plastic. I really pushed the mill to the limit by making a anvil out of a rail road track. Only negative was i needed to repair the motor control board as the vibration shook some parts free. No problem im an electronic engineer. Everything works great again. Only thing i plan to do is reinforce the mill column so it doesn't move under load. That does cause problems on precision work with steel.
I have a Sieg mill that had those .0625" per revolution feed screws. The mill was free. I replaced them with kits from an online small hobby machinist company. With the .1" per revolution parts in, it is much more difficult to turn the tiny handwheels. The nut they supply is too small.
I've got a Clarke Mini Mill, it's great. It cuts steel with no problems, just don't expect large cuts. My main tool is a 50mm 4 insert surface cutter, getting the right inserts for the material matters. 6mm and 8mm coated end mills will cut slots in steel in up to 3mm deep passes. My x and y calibration is 1.5mm per handle turn and 1.2 in the z axis, the only problem is the excessive backlash on the z axis slow adjustment. I've fitted a belt drive after breaking 2 sets of nylon gears. It does all the model engineering tasks I want from it.
The Z axis mechanism on these machines is not great (yes I do have one), as you say a lot of backlash. Most fine adjustments take much more turning of knobs than seems acceptable.
The CX612 is the same mill with belt drive and brushless motor. Much more capable, quiet and smooth. Mine came with an R8 spindle so I use R8 collets to gives more vertical clearance and rigidity. I also made a T shaped bolt on plate for the back of the column to disable the pivot and stiffen things up. It can be removed if column pivoting is required. Except for the 62.5 thou dials I have been quite happy with the machine. The column stiffening plate did increase the working capacity quite a bit and reduced the vibration.
Cheers: BJ in Ottawa
You show your gauge and saying "this is as close as I could get with the soda-can shims". But since I don't really know what I'm looking at, just how close is that? It looks like .003 but is that across some range of movement? is it plus and minus? Just what is it telling me? Thanks for an interesting video and for helping us learn about mini-mills.
this video popped up in my recommendations. very cool video and I like your humor! you got yourself another sub.
Cool video and good points. I think the smaller machines are great for the home hobbyists and small-scale work--would the bigger heavier duty machines be better? I think so but not everyone has the space/budget/ & or electrical for larger heavier duty machines.
Well said. I know personally I have to carry all my machines up 2 flights of stairs, just a theory but I suspect a full sized cnc mill would make that very difficult!
I have a mini mill from Seig and have had no issues with it . Along with my 7" x 12" mini lathe I have made a Sine bar (With in 1/10,000 of an inch accurate) I've made two fly cutters and yesterday I made an Arbor for a diamond wheel to sharpen my gravers with. I've made other parts that I could have bought but it was more fun to make things and cheaper too.
I bought a mini mill similair to this a few years back.
I was satisfied with it, mostly doing small hobby stuff.
Its capable of milling steel if you don't want to cut mm's in one go.
Unfortunatly the engine gave out, i had not used it very much and it was out of warranty.
One of the carbon brushes was detached from its little wire, thats were you see its the cheaper made stuff.
The carbon brushes were very hard to get, its a size that is not available at most suppliers.
So i bought something larger and custom fitted it.
It works but its not running smooth.
I found a replacement motor for a reasonable price and that is sitting on the bench waiting to be replaced.
I added a little machine shop upgraded fixed Z column to my now quite old mini mill which gave it more Y travel. I also did the belt drive. The main thing that annoys me about my mill is the controller goes into overcurrent protection very easily. Like drilling aluminum and it will often shut off. I'd replace the motor & controller if there was an inexpensive alternative.
I made T slot nuts from big bolt heads. Cut the head to fit the slots, drilled and tapped the centers.
Great video! I’ve been using my Hi Torque Mini Mill for about 10 years now. No issues with holding +\-.002 which has been fine for most of my projects. Taking lite cuts is key to mitigate any flexure, as u don’t have the rigidity of a Bridgeport type mill.
Love the brushless motor model. Definitely an upgrade I’ve been considering adding! Glad to hear you’ve also had success
Is the awkward gradation due to the machine having metric screws but a inch markings on the hand wheel?
No, see an earlier comment -- 0.0625 is 1/16 inch. The lead screw is 16 TPI.
Metric-to-inch mashups would be even messier -- a metric screw with an inch-gradation hand wheel couldn't even have ANY repeating number of thousandths on the hand wheel.
Going the other way, a metric handwheel could be installed on a screw measurable in inches, but it'd be a rather offbeat pitch -- for example a wheel giving 5.00 mm/rev (close to a Bridgeport's 0.200") would need a screw pitch of exactly 5.08 TPI. (Which is actually, of course, a metric thread with a pitch of 5 mm/turn, it just happens to be expressible also as an exact TPI pitch if you allow the decimal fraction, because an inch is exactly 25.4 mm.)
(That exactness is what makes it possible to fit a lathe with transposing gears that can convert its longitudinal feed between inch pitches and metric pitches. But it does mean you have to include a 127-tooth gear somewhere. Or with a surprisingly small error -- one part in 8000 I think -- you an also use a 63-to-64 pair and avoid the huge gear diameter. Considering that 10-32 screws are usually usable in M5x0.8mm nuts -- a much larger error, #10 diameter being 4.826 mm, almost 0.007" undersize, and 0.8 mm pitch being 31.75 TPI -- the 64:64 approximation ain't bad.)
I got my mini mill from little machine shop and quite honestly use it mostly on hardwoods, aluminum, plastic and brass. fits my needs perfectly. Also make the occasional R/C part as needed (when i break stuff)
I have had one of these for over 10 years. It works really fine for small work, helps to get a cheap DRO for it, since the scales are not any good. Mine is mk2 so I can use the same tools via adaptors as in my larger TOS and Aciera mill. Only use it for 2:nd op setups etc. In Al I have run a small boring head with excellent results. Modifying it with belt drive will give better results. I have always been amazed about the quality and precision of work many modellers do with these inexpensive machines. A skilled machinist can make great results with simple equipment. I would not use it with more than a 6 or max 8 mm mill though for best results. Make a small fly cutter instead. Also trammed and pinned mine permanently, never had the need to tilt the column. It is usually more precise and simpler to use angle blocks, a small rotary table or a sinebar. The vise in vise technique is very useful. I second taking everything apart when buying it and take some time to clean, debur, check and fix issues. I would suggest ER16 collets as a good match.
I think the issue with smaller machines is QA/QC. The mill you bought looks pretty good. You can also buy one and have the ways ground slightly off such that the travel gets tight at one end etc. I had a small 10x22 lathe and had to make several upgrades/modifications in order to handle heavier cuts or using carbide. I dislike straight cut gibs. Felt like I had to constantly re-adjust to maintain precision. Spent years running it making parts before upgrading to a 13x40. So glad I upgraded. I also think it depends what you want to do. I needed bigger machines for larger projects. IMO every garage should at least have a mini mill. So much you can do with x-y-z cutting/drilling/tapping etc.
I think a lot of complaints might just be from people expecting "out of the box" performance. Have to figure that most people buying small machines are likely hobbyists and not professional machinists that know how to take the time to set up the tools. Admittedly build quality is probably not as consistent on really cheap stuff, so always a chance you might get a dud, but sometimes any machine is better than no machine. I'm still hoping to get a lathe one of these days
I think I would be setting some sort of cutting fluid pump system on the mill and the lathe. Cutting fluid is a must when machining metals.......
Great video! Just an FYI, when milling aluminum you should use a 2 or 3 flute endmill for ideal results. Happy machining!
I am use to a 3 hp Tree mill, and a 7.5 hp lathe. R & D, is fine with the smaller versions. But taking a half inch cut, on the lathe, and hearing the motor begging for mercy, is SOP. But you will never expect that, out of them. And the bigger and heavier the machine, less vibration, and deflection.