Home Shop Rifling THREE(ish)...China vs. Ukraine Rifling Buttons!
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- Опубликовано: 13 сен 2024
- My third rifling video. Gun barrel rifling has gone from mystery to mainstream, and the interest has never been greater! Some good information here on rifling with the Ebay-available rifling buttons from China and Ukraine.
A suggestion for tool makers: make the back of the button concave and the mating surface of the push rod convex. This keeps the two colinear and provides a rounded leading edge, both to prevent damaging the new rifling with the push rod.
Or just chamfer your own rod, it obv wasnt purpose built for doing this
Actually a bang up idea.
Hiding behind a pressurized fire extinguisher seems like an interesting way to avoid shrapnel.
Yeah but it wouldn't bust an extinguisher.
The extinguisher wouldn't explode, just spray the fire retardant chemical all over through the hole. And that's only if it actually penetrates the fire extinguisher anyway.
Dude! We're gonna start a gofundme for you to get a new press. I put a Harbor Freight catalog in the mail for you in the meantime. It may take a few months for the donkey to walk to FL from Maine, but it will go by soon. :-) Great job my friend. This video series shows how easy this can be for anyone, not just someone with a huge machine shop, to make a firearm. That's a win for everyone.
Thanks, Jeff. Wait until you see the next video… I just bought a hydraulic power unit and I’m making my own rifling machine.
A new harbor freight press isn't any better than an old harbor freight press 🤫
@@markserbu did you anneal the steel before buttoning it? It's what they recommend on their site but not sure how to heat treat it afterwards
Try tightening up those return Springs on your press with those threaded eye bolts... Great video Thanks for sharing!
Chamber up a cartridge with a button rifling bullet!
Lube, chamber, fire! One smooth cycle!
@@MFKR696 I try to be understanding of people with disabilities. Were you born without a sense of humor or did you lose it in an accident?
@@sprky777looks like the comment was removed😂
I'm 71 and I still love learning, especially about gunzzz. Thanks Mark!
That was painful, I wanted to buy an airline ticket and fly down to tighten the springs on your press. Three minutes to tighten and the video could have been half as long. As my Dad used to say "Sharpen the saw", actually he used to say "sharpen your knife and if it touches the elk hair it will be dull so sharpen it again."
And I thought my press is shit. Watching this video makes me feel better about my equipment. THANKS!
Nothing better than jamming rods in holes. Then filming it to put on the internet? That'll never take off...
🤣
In before RUclips deletes this Video. Good work mark, keep it up.
I don’t think they deleted it
Not yet
Hiding behind the steel beam while you work the press. Classic risk mitigation.
When Mark speeds up the video his voice sounds so funny I thought I was watching The Swedish Chef from Sesame Street. C'mon Mark, say it! "Bork bork bork, mmm skip skedoo."
But more on the serious side of things, I'm grateful to Mark for educating us about rifling. Ever since I was a kid (45 years ago) I've been absolutely mystified as to how rifling was done. I never really researched it but always just assumed it required a far more elaborate contraption to get it done. What Mark is doing in these videos, I could do myself in my own home. Absolutely mind blowing.
hello from Ukraine! good luck
5 years late and y'all know why Ukraine was making rifling bits lol
we're also making long range one way UAVs now ;)
Hey Mark, if you tighten the eyelet nuts on your press's crossbar one to two inches (below the ram), it'll preload the springs and pull the ram up by itself..
Awesome stuff man. As a garage gunsmith I truly am inspired by your work!
Hi Mark, thanks for the video, you kept promises, thank you so much.
I think if you measure inside the dimensions of the barrel, it becomes clear who the winner is)
Personally, my opinion is that the cuts in height in the Chinese button are low, which is already wrong for the barrel
But why wrong ??
I think the Chinese button is the winner because it's like 20euros on ebay...
I can't wait until he tries to rifle an 18"-20" barrel. That's gonna be total hell
Thanks for this video, Have a great weekend! Yes some of us like your schooling on tools and machines.
I appreciate that this video is sped up not cut up. Shows that yeah there’s a lot of doing the same shit over and over again
I can do it
No u
No disrespect Edwin, but I don't think you could machine your way out of a wet paper bag. 😂😂😂
Professionals make it LOOK easy.
You mean you could pay someone to do it for you. You have more dollars than sense.
8 mm ball brings following the button adding one after the other without damaging the barrel.
Hiding behind the Steel Beam... What a Novel Idea... I completely agree with it too. Although a directional shield should suffice. You need some return springs on that press.
we know you're a big strong guy but, try tightening up the return springs on you-re press would help you out no end, and there would be no more weightlifting involved. and less weightlifting means your arms would have more strength for lifting more beer can's at night after working all day!
If you load the button in a cartridge and fire it through the unrifled barrel, you could get it done a lot faster. Maybe... I'd stand far away though 😂
Just use more and more powder until it goes all the way through the barrel! EZPZ.
Love your videos
😂😂😂😂 I would love to see someone try that in a video
Thats what blanks are for!
The barrel would probably need to be super overbuilt and be attached to a massive breech.
Just received my China button today. Can’t wait to try it. Love the videos Mark. Trying to put together a PA Luty esq build right now. If it goes well I’ll share the plans
tell us how it goes. did you get a 9mm button for a .380 or a 9 para?
I think there are no specific .380 Buttons out there.
@@shlomogoldshekelbergstein7189 no shit, its a 9mm bullet
Don't mind me, just adding myself onto the list.
@@Tunkkis have you seen the inrange video on .50 GI and when ian says thats a spicy meatball? unrelated to this thread just your pfp
"I gotta go out skiing".. Oh the hardship Mark! lol
First you bore for exam.. 9 mm luger. The china buton is 9mm to 9.32 mm the ukraine proper 8.83 to 9.0.
So the hole have to be 8.7 mm. After this you press a steel ball through. To compress the walls. Then you go further to the button.
The barrel needs to be proper stabilized. The button has to be pressed with impulse.😉
Offcourse dont forget chamfering hardenning and blueing.
Time to build a hydraulic ram driven fixture to push the button through in one smooth motion?
Oh this series is a treat. I've been a machinist \ prototyper \ model maker \ programmer \ etc for 15 years. I really like you Mark. Moreso, how you think. Adapt and overcome. There's more than one way to an end result.
Fun fact: one of the more fun and challenging things I've ever done was produce 10 box mags for Remington. This was about 2005. It was a caliber I'd never heard of. All I got was the prints for the mag, so I don't know the cartridge dimensions, but I'd have loved to though. Pretty sure it was a round not in existence. IIRC it was 10 or less round mag and likely a hunting style rifle.
Anyway, the beauty of model making was I would be supplied a print and a solid model. I would have to "unwrap" the part and figure out the dimensions for the flat blank. It really not hard. There are formulas to figure takeup for a bend radius and what it amounts to in a linear dimension in a flat state. You add those to the straight leg dims and that will give you the OAL. Its not always exactly perfect as far as the formula and can vary with stock thickness and material, but that's why we have tolerances. ;). I engineered and made all the tooling and formed the mags first on a hydraulic press to put the strengthening ribs in the flat blank. Then fold it up in the press brake. Then they got welded at the seam in the back where it met up. That's the only thing I didn't do was weld. After weld I had to make a fixture to hold the part and machine feed lips to dim. I couldn't control it with a bend no matter what I did because if angles and how they compund.
It was a lot of fun. I was maybe 23 or 24 at the time.
Edit: I completely understand why people through history have chosen to use sten mags and the like how you did with the ROF. It's a pain in the ass to make mags if you don't have to lol.
The Chinese rifling buttons I got have flutes to cut 6-groove rifling, and the grooves are fairly deep. I nearly went with 12-groove buttons, but since I shoot mostly cast bullets, I didn't want the fouling that too often comes with micro-groove barrels.
You know, a few nice pieces of laminated plexiglass would make a really nice safety shield. Also an interesting idea would be using the top of a cam lifter as a shield to prevent shattered hardened steel pusher rods from blowing up. Presses are more dangerous than most people understand. PS - great video by the way. :)
Really interesting, was cool meeting you at shop I hope you liked the patch
Very cool. Thank you Mark Serbu!
Try ECM its a pretty nifty trick for doing rifling without machine tools.
Ukrainian will work, verified!
I love your videos, you really are a nut! Please keep making them. Thanks again
Congratulations on 50 K!
McSerbu😁
Glad to see you here before the accident, you've always been a fan of Mark, scott.
Stay strong man.
Continue with these videos Mark! It would be nice to test these two barrels. See if the projectile would be stable. Now on aliexpress all these tools are available, making it possible for poor people to make their weapons. Before, it was impossible to pay $ 250 on a rifle button. (all money of my month). Thanks for teaching what you know, I'm your fan here in Brazil!
I would like to make a suggestion, put a couple of more return spring on that press, and anchor it down so that it returns on its own, and it won't wobble around as much. Just a suggestion to make using it much easier for anyone who might use it in the future.
Is there a difference in the quality of the result if the rifling was made by the button being pulled out of the bore instead of being pushed out of the bore?
I love you hiding behind the I-beam. LOL. For anyone that doesn't understand why you'd do such a thing, hasn't lived life a little too far on the edge.
Using a pressure vessel as cover is my main take away today :-)
Mark, I have no comment, just pure admiration.
More Serbu's for Canada please Mark! Still don't have my BFG.50 yet😢
I love how you duck behind a steel beam for protection, but leave the fire extinguisher right in front of your crotch
This may have been said, but looks like you could tighten up those eye-bolts and give the springs some more tension on your press. Great vid.
Never seen anyone so scared of a press ever
Last time he tried his push rod shattered and blasted him lol, I don't blame him for taking cover
interesting video. i wonder if you should carve out a groove in the first spacer (perpendicular to the hole) to let the air and grease out of the barrel as you press the rifling button through it?
Holy crap! I just realized you are the maker of the super shorty!😃😃😁
Someone's got to do it! :-)
Much respect sir!
markserbu been looking to buy Ukrainian .22 button without success. Can you send me the link please. Love your work and greetings from Australia 🇦🇺
Mark would you make a super shorty chambered in 45 long colt/.410 and categorize it as an other? Or simply as a pistol?
Nice to see you taking cover behind that compressed cylinder :-)
Love your work by the way!
@Mark In reality I should be going out of my way to destroy my family jewels, considering they had a part in making 50CalVal. ;-)
markserbu so the twist of the button will form in the barrel without you manually trusting the button and is it dead on and repeatable??
@@donaldgoembel7109 Yes, a push-through button twists on its own. Dead-on and repeatable? I'm not positive, but it's been done in production for many years so it's obviously good enough.
markserbu thanks it's the first time I've seen short barrel and button. It's always a long barrel and long button being pulled through and I always ASS-sumed the rod with the button was being mechanically applied trist. Thanks a bunch. You put out a really good video on this matter.
@msrkserbu, why are you always hard on 50CalVal? Its great to have a daughter involved in the gun works. I have been teaching my daughter as much as possible when it comes to manufacturing most anything. The unfortunate issue is that where we moved to years ago it is a location where the government here fears an armed citizen. Good news is it doesn't stop many individuals around here.
Keep up the great videos!
Love your video! Looking forward to another video .... "Turning a POS hydraulic press into a usable shop tool"
I had a family member that had a P.O.S press like that he made some shims and tac welded them on to the ends where it is flapping and like magic it works great
You could put a some vacuum hose maybe a straw or something around spacers that keeps it centered on the button posibly to prevent rifling damage. Put a pvc pipe around hole thing (after making a mark to where the press is almost down on the barrel).
Mark you are living the dream sir, you are a awesome person and I hope to shake your hand one day. You have done wonders for the gun industries and Val well is just Val .... (jkn) anyways ty for the vids!!
I understand your standing behind the column, but using the fire extinguisher as body armor seems a bit counter-intuitive...
That press would drive me friggin' batty before I even got 1 barrel done!
I think truck and car axles are 4140 steel. I think you could make a bundle by just packaging up kits like a hole drill, reamer, chamber drill and reamer and button rifle for 9mm, 556, 308 and folks would probably buy those if you had a good marketing venue. I have to source all that a piece at a time. Good video. Hiding behind that beam is clever. Very safe compared to a shop apron.
I was more afraid of the press blowing out lol
The hiding behind the column had me going.
Isn't soap the recommended lubricant for rifling buttons?
whens the next video on rifling coming its been some time. I cant wait mark
Sorry to hear you have to go skiing rather than working making videos .... I hope it does not suck too much for you! ;-)
I’m so freakin happy your doing these videos Mark
Keep it up Sir, youtube doesn't even show you in my subscriber feed at this point LOL ... I have to look for your channel specifically.
He doesn't upload too often for that little bell thingy to be too annoying.
4 strips or HDPE to act as slides for the moving bar on your press will make a big difference.
I don't know anything about this process but was wondering... Wouldn't it be easier to heat treat after rifling?
Only a little easier, steel is steel and good steel is never easy to pressure form like a button does. And heat treating is a violent process that often warps fine details, with rifling it may warp the rifling itself or even twist the whole piece from the stress internally on the steel. It may be a little easier but comes with more risk.
Wish i could see the finished product, someone should invent some kind of scope for bores, they could call it a borescope
What a revolutionary idea! You should patent that quick
Id call it an endoscope. Id sell it on ebay for 30 dollars
called lasers
@@TTS-TP Lol!
You could see your press rate, ie the pauses in the motion. Every few mil's there's a horizontal line, you need a new press of sorts. It was a painful experience to watch. Reminds me of the bond movies seeing the end result. Best wishes G.
Yup, that's true. Luckily those little lines are extremely small and generally don't effect anything. Don't worry, I'm in the process of building a custom press.
I take it heat treating prior to using the button saves risk of deforming the steel while using the button and warping when heat treating after rifling is done
Doesn't really matter. Button rifling puts a lot of stress in the steel, it "should" go through a stress relief cycle after being rifled
@@Man_Emperor_of_Mankind awesome thanks man, steel does mysterious things, but my point it heat treating pre rifling would also has potential to warp and change shape main reason why its done after not before
Mark! I've heard about "explosion proof tubing" you can buy from China that just happen to have the exact inside diameters for a variety of calibers. Do you know if these things are trustworthy?
@Sir Lukas I have no experience with them but they're obviously going for the home builder barrel market. Like anything from China, it's caveat emptor, hit or miss. With low-pressure stuff like most pistols you're probably fine, but that's just a guess....not to be taken as expert advice!
@@markserbu alright. I was thinking about building a .22 derringer or something so it's not like I'm putting a .50 cal in a pipe like that. Also, would a .22 LR round fire from a 5.6mm hole?
@@sirlukas73 was wondering about this same question. Also @markserbu you're an absolute legend answering questions on 3 year old video's
Do not use them, at first the inside diameter do not allow to press a rifling button inside because they are too large, and if you are lucky yo get one enough tight to pass the button inside, you will brake the pipe like i did.
@@MD-dq4mv ECM FTW!
Thanks for this videos mr.serbu..this is a great help since it's so freakin expensive to buy barrels here on the Philippines. Now i can just machine and make my own. And maybe make better one's.
Can't ban knowledge!! Keep up the fight!
Luty style rifling.
If we had ammo over here in Europe, this would be a nice challenge ;-)
Put some brass behind the tungsten carbide, otherwise it cracks easily, if pushed too hard with hardened steel rods.
That rifling is cuter than a Chinese Button.
Great to see you doing something you like with good results
I have ordered a rifling button and a tube off aliexpress (all for 9mm). It seems the tube is too small, with ID of 8,4mm. What is the correct ID to start with?
All of the specs you need to know are available online at saami.org. Off the top of my head that bore diameter should be almost 8.8mm.
翻译看了👍👍
@@markserbu hello mark
What do you think of a pistol barrel made of 4140 steel and quenched and tempered to a hardness of 35-38 RC?
maybe adjust those springs adjusting bolts on your press so you don't have to pry it back up,just sayin
I made my own button from a hardened cylindrical pin, macgyver style.
Marc Serbu hiding behind the the fire extinguisher ... unfamiliar cautiousness 🤣
Why just use a chinese and ukr buttons to set the rifilings? Why not the United States, Mexican, Gernan etc...?
@jerrymont2595 Time, budget.
Becose mexican and german didn't make a rifling buttons
Because most barrel makers don’t sell their Rifling Buttons to DIYers…
So short of having a Steel Shop make you a Custom Rifling Button, or Making one yourself (which you can do, if you’ve the patience) the only Commercially Available Rifling Buttons are Chinese or Ukrainian… Well, by this point, likely only Chinese…
It seems you missed the cost difference at the start of the video.
Thanks a bunch for this series on rifling.
friend if you use steel 4140, 4150 or 8620?? 416 stainless steel, does the tool rotate better??
I wonder how well this would work in a Luty-esque build, using just seamless steel tubing. Luty also published instructions in one of his books on creating a makeshift chamber reamer, which would be interesting to see in action. I'll try to find a way to link the pages to here at some point.
Tunkkis do you remember what book it was?
@@SammyNeverEver It was "Expedient Homemade Firearms: The 9mm Submachine Gun", the chapter begins on page 19. archive.org/details/Expedient_Homemade_Firearms_9mm_Submachine_Gun_P_A_Luty_Paladin_Press
@@thesmith2327 Thanks for the info, I'll look into it.
Just a thought. how about having a 'V' cut into the end of the first insert after the button then another insert that fits into the first button and make a number of inserts to use to push the button all the way thru then a solid rod to push all the inserts out
That drill rod blanks don't come pre hard. You harden them in the shop. Either Air, Oil or Water hardened depending which you buy
Correct, normally drill rod (W1, O1, M2, etc.) blanks come annealed. But these are Chinese-made blanks specifically made for this purpose, are specific diameters and lengths and are sold hardened.
So 2 weeks till the next one?😂
Great videos Mark. Thanks for doing this and letting us all see it.
Would the rifling be smoother with a steady long push instead of stop-n-go?
Yes. You may be able to lap the defects out, with a great deal of effort.
What is easier to push through a 6 or 12 groove?
With either number of grooves you're displacing the same cross-sectional area of material, so it should be the same.
@@markserbu thank you I really appreciate your help
Thought he was going to stand in front of a piece of tungsten carbide with 40,000 lbs on it....instead he hid behind the that charged pressure vessel.
did you measure the buttons or just assume that they are within spec?
Buttons are spec, therefore the bore has to be just a thousand larger in diameter than the diameter of the button's pilot.
After watching # 2 I am going to get drunk and make my own Berle. And butten! I'd bet not going to have any problems.
The simplest jobs are always the hardest
i dare you to make a 100% homebuild integrally supressed post sample fullauto AS VAL
I m just wondering, if the pusher extensions were slightly tapered, and the ends slightly concave , then a ball bearing between each extension, would it make it work a little better?
Yes it would allow the button to turn easier against the extension. Well spotted.
Trust ukranian more than chinesium. But rather make my own.
Video spettacolare
If I remember correctly.... you promised to show us how to make homemade rifling buttons of our own. I hope that is still the plan. I make my own muzzleloaders of various sizes and ebay doesn't have rifling buttons in the sizes that I need. I have a mini lathe and mini mill but getting the button to spin as I mill it is the part that would normally cost me a lot of money to overcome with stock tooling. I'm hoping that your ingenious brain has some master tricks that I don't know about for making rifling buttons. Keep up the great work! Love the channel and content!
The Idahoan show made a great video about how to make rifling buttons by yourself.
@@RandomGuy9 Yes, I've seen them. But he uses a special "Norris Chuck" to get those results. That device is pretty expensive to buy/make. I would also want better accuracy than can be achieved using his manual Dremel tool method. I've been thinking about making a sine bar attachment for my mill to spin the rifling button as it is milled, but I was hoping that Marc had a better idea.
@@mtslyh Guys, please give a link or the full name of the file so that we can find and see it.
Accuracy-testing after such would be real interesting, see how all the little imperfections mess with them
Honestly it doesn't affect accuracy in any noticeable degree. As long as the bore diameter and twist rate is correct it really doesn't matter much if the rifling is rough. I've shot rifles with bulges and rings in the barrels and those still shot just fine. Incorrect twist rate and worn rifling does however significantly affect accuracy.
Uneven resistance in the barrel can cause inaccuracy, so I'd beg to differ
The shoemaker's soon always goes barefoot. Funny to see. I saw one of these videos where the barrels were heat treated to get hardened and I didn't understand why. To get a better finish maybe? I also saw a video about making stg 510 barrels and they were all honed after rifling. Since I am living in an almost ussr place, I want to learn how to make barrels, all other parts are easy.