After 6 years, this is probably still the single best video for form work. The difference in the 4 players' individual styles and yet, they're all fundamentally the same. And these guys are really good at the fundamentals.
Oh my goodness, Eagle's throw at 1:06! His arm stayed in the exact same spot for like 20 frames of film before being whipped through, that was beautiful
So when they're on the back leg coming out of the X step, they coil their hips. You can see they're almost facing backwards, then they really just start to 'fall' or 'drift' forwards as it's really hard to maintain this coil and 'step' forward... as you fall you're either thinking of extending your arm as you fall, or thinking of leaving the arm behind as you fall. As soon as your front toe touches the ground, it's time to go. Gannon was talking about how instead of doing a whole practice swing, he just practices this bouncing motion to time his hit.
I was just about to point this out. Ricky and Eagle are the best examples but they all did it to an extent. It really shows how they’re building up to a release of energy.
What I never noticed before is how they don't really pull the disc back. They just get to a point in their run-ups where they keep the disc in one place and move their bodies past it, until they have to bring it forward.
I see what you're seeing and it does appear that the disc hovers over the middle foot plant after the scissor step. But consider - it can't be that it they just rest it there. They're extending the arm back at the same rate that they step forward.
I just did a clinic with Paul Ulibarri and he talked about this a lot. He said that when you're walking or running, your right arm mirrors your left leg. When your left leg comes forward, so does your right arm. Left leg goes back, so does your right arm. An x-step should mirror this movement. When you're crossing your left leg forward behind your right leg, your right arm should pump forward to mirror this. Watch Paul McBeth to see it exaggerated. Then when you're stepping up with your right leg for the last step of the x-step, your right arm is coming back (mirroring your left leg which is now coming back as you're stepping forward). He says that it's a really important step that nobody talks much about. *All this is assuming RHBH. Flip it for LHBH.
Full shots can be seen here: ruclips.net/video/-7axmfTxhbs/видео.html Its a 600 foot hole with a decent size gap off the tee. Shot seems to be: Wysocki - straight to fade Kajiyama - turnover flex shot McMahon - turnover flex shot McBeth - slightly more anhyzer release to flex
Only problem I see is his plant foot is rounding. Instead of landing on his toe, planting, and then rotating, he is landing and planting at the same time.
@@shavis001 Maza is correct, in disc golf the reason BH is called a pull is because you assist your throwing arm in slingshotting the disc by pulling your weight from your back foot through your hips to your front by pulling your offhand through your torso to push your hips into the pull. Paul is a great example here you can see his arm come back with the reach then pull forward into his hip rotation about as hard as he possibly can.
Wow Paul's momentum was epic into that shot. Great footage just started filming our drives recently to really get a second hand perspective on the way we drive
Momentum is probably the least important part of the drive. A little extra run-up speed is what might get you from 500' to 550', but for most people, timing and proper body positioning/bracing are the most important factors. The coolest thing to notice in all of these throws are how well braced against the front foot/leg they all are and how far the elbow extends forward before releasing.
Well, momentum does matte for some people. Small guys like mcbeth need momentum to throw as far as people built like eagle. Their body doesnt create that whip like action as well. Thats why you see paul put his entire body into his distance shots. Hes like 5'8'' 160lbs, pretty small dude compared to wysocki, lizotte, and eagle but he hangs with them pretty well.
@@Postermaestro I think they are talking about forward momentum vs lateral momentum. They aren't wrong per say but not right either. For most people getting the right rotational forces acting on the disc are the most important factors of the throw, but once you get that down its the drive and momentum from your run up that will get you the big distance.
If we're told not to 'squish the bug' and rotate the back knee into the shot to shift the weight to the front foot quicker.. How are they achieving the position at 0:43 where the back leg is alomst at 90 degrees while in the power pocket? Looking at my own form my legs are still in a triangle kind of A shape at this point in the throw 🤔
@@truthstands4ever Are they? It looks to me that once they're coming out of the x step, the disc is where it's going to stay until the front foot lands. They're not moving the hand back. What's keeping the disc there is the rotation of the shoulders as their body moves forward. Their arm straightens out so that makes it appear like they're moving their hand back.
Where can I see the rest of the shot? Can't tell if they are bombing, throwing low and flat, anhyzer, non of that lol. It would be helpful to see the hole layout and the gap they are going for.
I don't have "the snap" . I see that they are releasing the disc roughly over their front foot. For whatever reason I never noticed that while watching other drive vids before. My release is too far in front of it. Hope this finally does it for me
Good eyes Macky. That was the key take-away for me too. I am releasing too far in front also. I notice they take a long last step to maximize the reach back. Also very cool to see the timing of the release with the pivot of the plant foot.
The pull back is mostly an illusion because of the run ups slow movement and the rhythm between the x step and the last step.. that simply puts you in the optimal place where the throw goes smoothly and gets the power
*Another key note* The weight transfer from the back lag to the front before the pull through even starts is clearly visible. The back leg bends while the arm is still fully extended. Hips>Pull Through. From this, power comes.
very true. i also noticed how after their release the arm is fully extended and stays that way. i was always dropping mine after i would release the disc.
It's honestly wrong to even call it a "pull through". Does it look like any of these guys are actually consciously pulling with their arms? 99% of the disc's momentum is created through their weight transfer, and the kinetic chain of legs ----> hips ----> torso -----> shoulders -----> arm, all engaging in perfect sequence. The notion of "reaching back" and "pulling through" has set the collective amateur disc golf world back decades. We should start calling it "the launch" or something more appropriate. History will thank us.
McBeth… WTF…. He practically lunges backwards into his plant foot. And from the end of his reachback to his release looks like ~10ft of distance. What an animal….
They're all great to watch and truly inspire to try and make my throw better, but specifically the line Mcbeth draws with the disc is just bonkers good. Not being a lanky monster he's getting massive distance/accuracy with just a beautiful line!
Some training videos talk about rotating the hips before the arm pulls through and others say you shouldn't do that. Watching these pros in slo-mo, it looks like a couple do start rotating hips first and a couple do not. The variation is slight, but I can see it in this video. Now I don't know what to think.... just need to hit the field and see what works best for me I guess.
Just now saw this video. I take literal steps in my X step, which I think hurts me. I am a bigger guy, 6'4, like Eagle but not quite as lanky. I am going to try and use Ricky/Paul's mini crow hop in the middle of the X step and see how it works for me. Watching videos of myself, I see that I am using mainly just my arms to drive, with little hip and leg usage.
So cool to watch in slow Mo, I shoot very similar to McBeth because I’m 5’9 and like to hop on my X step and put my front foot really far out... almost as good as mine 😅
I SWEAR that looking at Eagle's throw here at .25x speed is altered (even though I know it isn't)! The disc literally DOES NOT MOVE as he comes out of the x-step and plants his foot, almost like his arm CAN'T move from that spot (other than to extend) and then just POWERS through that throw! WOW!!
I've watched ricky's throw probably hundreds of times at this point. The more times i watch the more i realize it all comes down to lower body. I can throw 400' on a good day and my footwork is definitely way off.
For normal controlled power shots with slower run ups, that holds true, but when players go for max distance and increase the speed of their run ups then yes their momentum can carry them past their plant leg. Worth noting though, most Paul's center of gravity still continues to stay behind his plant leg, even after the pivot and little hop motion, which allows him to step down with trailing foot pretty softly at the end. The players that are losing power due to poor bracing will have their whole center of gravity go past their plant leg and have to forcefully catch their body weight with their trailing foot or they will literally fall forward to the ground.
Eagle appears to have a little bit of a dip on his approach. The others are as level as you can possibly get. I never paid much attention to this before now....
It's surprising how far apart their feet are. All of them get that lead foot way out front, which seems to give them a better angle to stop their momentum. A lot of teachers say to keep your feet shoulder width, but these guys definitely are not.
yes that's why. To aplly a force parallel to the ground you want to angle yourself as much as possible without slipping. Like if you were to push something heavy. The more of your forward motion (momentum) you can stop, the faster you will rotate
Teachers say that because it is appropriate for the power of a student. The more momentum you build up, the more leverage you need to transfer it to the disc. Doing such a wide step for a 300' shot would be counterproductive.
Check out the balance on Kajiyama! Eagle has near perfect form here, sending all his energy into the shot. Paul leaves the most energy on the table, and Ricky only leaves a little. You can see the core wind up so much better in slow motion!
@@Postermaestro Ok. Mcbeth and Wysocki use their NON-throwing arm to generate force in rotating the torso upon initiating the forward movement after the peak of the reachback. Mcbeth does it more, followed by Wysocki, and now that I look again, Mcmahon does a little bit of it too. Timestamps: 0:09 for Wysocki. 1:37 for Mcbeth. Long after first seeing this vid, I saw a vid from Ezra that then clearly explains this concept. In Ezra's video, he explains how his left arm does a 2 step movement. First forward (towards the target), to generate speed, then rearward (away from the target), to generate a reactive FORCE towards the target. Timing is essential, because if you accelerate the left arm too late, when the torso has already started rotating forward, the result would be a terrible REARWARD force, robbing you of a lot of initial disc speed.
@@suserman7775 really good observation, thx for taking the time to point it out! My explanation for it is that when you pump you left arm clockwise and in you do 2 things: #1 decrease your moment of inertia which means your torso will rotate faster (think ice skater tucking arms). #2 rotate your torso. However if you rotate your torso your hips will rotate the other way (newton's 3rd law). You can try it yourself by standing with your feet forward, jump and punch/tuck your arm like they do, and watch how your feet land (pointing to the left if you punch with your left arm). In the actual throw you punch when the hip has transferred (or is transferring?) most of its momentum to the torso. Earlier and you make the hips rotate slower and you lose the advantage that the lag between hips and shoulders provides. Moving you arm in the opposite direction (counterclockwise) the opposite happens, so your torso rotates slower and your right arm rotates faster. Always about that timing
This is a massive misinterpretation of what you're seeing. The left arm is simply following the true source of power: the shoulders and hips. That's it. The rotation you get opening the hips up, in time with the shoulders, and then rotating is where the main power comes from in a throw, just like batting, pitching, tennis, etc.
After 6 years, this is probably still the single best video for form work. The difference in the 4 players' individual styles and yet, they're all fundamentally the same. And these guys are really good at the fundamentals.
heck yeah. i've watched it a good 50 times. kind of surprised it's only a half million views....
Oh my goodness, Eagle's throw at 1:06! His arm stayed in the exact same spot for like 20 frames of film before being whipped through, that was beautiful
thank you for your insightful comment im learning so much
Ricky and Eagle both. The arm from elbow to disc is in the exact same spot as their body continues forward. Pretty amazing to see
So when they're on the back leg coming out of the X step, they coil their hips. You can see they're almost facing backwards, then they really just start to 'fall' or 'drift' forwards as it's really hard to maintain this coil and 'step' forward... as you fall you're either thinking of extending your arm as you fall, or thinking of leaving the arm behind as you fall.
As soon as your front toe touches the ground, it's time to go. Gannon was talking about how instead of doing a whole practice swing, he just practices this bouncing motion to time his hit.
I was just about to point this out. Ricky and Eagle are the best examples but they all did it to an extent. It really shows how they’re building up to a release of energy.
What I never noticed before is how they don't really pull the disc back. They just get to a point in their run-ups where they keep the disc in one place and move their bodies past it, until they have to bring it forward.
I just saw that for the first time too. That changes things...
I didn't notice it until you mentioned it. I agree, changes things
I see what you're seeing and it does appear that the disc hovers over the middle foot plant after the scissor step. But consider - it can't be that it they just rest it there. They're extending the arm back at the same rate that they step forward.
Just don't pull back too far. Notice they more focused on keeping their hand on the outside of the disc.
I just did a clinic with Paul Ulibarri and he talked about this a lot. He said that when you're walking or running, your right arm mirrors your left leg. When your left leg comes forward, so does your right arm. Left leg goes back, so does your right arm. An x-step should mirror this movement. When you're crossing your left leg forward behind your right leg, your right arm should pump forward to mirror this. Watch Paul McBeth to see it exaggerated. Then when you're stepping up with your right leg for the last step of the x-step, your right arm is coming back (mirroring your left leg which is now coming back as you're stepping forward). He says that it's a really important step that nobody talks much about.
*All this is assuming RHBH. Flip it for LHBH.
I like how despite the nuances in their form the fundamentals are still the same between all of them.
Full shots can be seen here: ruclips.net/video/-7axmfTxhbs/видео.html
Its a 600 foot hole with a decent size gap off the tee. Shot seems to be:
Wysocki - straight to fade
Kajiyama - turnover flex shot
McMahon - turnover flex shot
McBeth - slightly more anhyzer release to flex
Good catch! Great to see all the different up shots, and Eagle still clutch the birdie.
Kajiyama's form is even more majestic in slow-mo😵
Only problem I see is his plant foot is rounding. Instead of landing on his toe, planting, and then rotating, he is landing and planting at the same time.
And his free hand is flopping too freely. You should keep the hand close to your body.
@@mattiloponen92 I do spread eagle like a bird- no clue why, just always have. Yet, I throw 500+ feet, so it makes me wonder.
@@shavis001 Maza is correct, in disc golf the reason BH is called a pull is because you assist your throwing arm in slingshotting the disc by pulling your weight from your back foot through your hips to your front by pulling your offhand through your torso to push your hips into the pull. Paul is a great example here you can see his arm come back with the reach then pull forward into his hip rotation about as hard as he possibly can.
What a stupid sport
As I work on my own form, this is very helpful to see pros doing it and get an idea of ways I can change my form. Thanks! This is awesome
Love these slow-mo’s
Kajiyama has an awesome leg kick. Reminds me of a pitcher throwing a baseball. The follow through is the hardest part for me, thanks for posting this.
Wow Paul's momentum was epic into that shot. Great footage just started filming our drives recently to really get a second hand perspective on the way we drive
Momentum is probably the least important part of the drive. A little extra run-up speed is what might get you from 500' to 550', but for most people, timing and proper body positioning/bracing are the most important factors. The coolest thing to notice in all of these throws are how well braced against the front foot/leg they all are and how far the elbow extends forward before releasing.
Well, momentum does matte for some people. Small guys like mcbeth need momentum to throw as far as people built like eagle. Their body doesnt create that whip like action as well. Thats why you see paul put his entire body into his distance shots. Hes like 5'8'' 160lbs, pretty small dude compared to wysocki, lizotte, and eagle but he hangs with them pretty well.
Syfiewow hangs as in he's the GOAT and it's not even close?
@@reid3737 if momentum is the least important part of the drive, then why bother bracing?
@@Postermaestro I think they are talking about forward momentum vs lateral momentum. They aren't wrong per say but not right either. For most people getting the right rotational forces acting on the disc are the most important factors of the throw, but once you get that down its the drive and momentum from your run up that will get you the big distance.
best instructional disc golf video I've seen, Thanks!
0:55 If Kajiyama would have a signature disc with some kind of "Picture" it would easily be this frame! Look at that balance!
Well, actually they just took a boring frame of his pull and chose it to be his signature picture..
If we're told not to 'squish the bug' and rotate the back knee into the shot to shift the weight to the front foot quicker.. How are they achieving the position at 0:43 where the back leg is alomst at 90 degrees while in the power pocket?
Looking at my own form my legs are still in a triangle kind of A shape at this point in the throw 🤔
This video is worth subscribing. Thank you. So fascinating.
ruclips.net/video/-7axmfTxhbs/видео.html link to spinTv coverage of this hole so you can see how their drives actually perform.
So satisfying to watch the reach back on the first one when his disc just stays still
anyone know if they're throwing a line going straight, right or left?
Throwing straight to fade late right. Big OB area on the right. Search for the Australian open for that year full telecast :)
the few frames where the arm is basically stationary in space are a sight to behold
True, but from the player's perspective, they're moving that hand back at the same speed as their body is moving forward.
@@truthstands4ever Are they? It looks to me that once they're coming out of the x step, the disc is where it's going to stay until the front foot lands. They're not moving the hand back. What's keeping the disc there is the rotation of the shoulders as their body moves forward. Their arm straightens out so that makes it appear like they're moving their hand back.
Where can I see the rest of the shot? Can't tell if they are bombing, throwing low and flat, anhyzer, non of that lol. It would be helpful to see the hole layout and the gap they are going for.
You don't need any of that. You can mostly tell from just looking at their form assuming they nailed their shot, which you can be sure they did.
I don't have "the snap" . I see that they are releasing the disc roughly over their front foot. For whatever reason I never noticed that while watching other drive vids before. My release is too far in front of it. Hope this finally does it for me
Good eyes Macky. That was the key take-away for me too. I am releasing too far in front also. I notice they take a long last step to maximize the reach back. Also very cool to see the timing of the release with the pivot of the plant foot.
Sorry that this is four years late, but key point to getting the snap is to pull *after* your front foot hits the ground, not before.
If you notice the reach back isnt really a reach back at all the disc stays there and they move around it cool video
The pull back is mostly an illusion because of the run ups slow movement and the rhythm between the x step and the last step.. that simply puts you in the optimal place where the throw goes smoothly and gets the power
Slow is smooth , an smooth is fare.
*Another key note* The weight transfer from the back lag to the front before the pull through even starts is clearly visible. The back leg bends while the arm is still fully extended. Hips>Pull Through. From this, power comes.
very true. i also noticed how after their release the arm is fully extended and stays that way. i was always dropping mine after i would release the disc.
It's honestly wrong to even call it a "pull through". Does it look like any of these guys are actually consciously pulling with their arms? 99% of the disc's momentum is created through their weight transfer, and the kinetic chain of legs ----> hips ----> torso -----> shoulders -----> arm, all engaging in perfect sequence. The notion of "reaching back" and "pulling through" has set the collective amateur disc golf world back decades. We should start calling it "the launch" or something more appropriate. History will thank us.
@@Thebrianweissman The pros would disagree. They can stand still "reach back and pull through" further than an amateurs "momentum shift" drive.
@@Thebrianweissman so true, even the pros themselves teach the "straight pull" which makes it even worse
@@TLouski what are you even saying
McBeth… WTF…. He practically lunges backwards into his plant foot. And from the end of his reachback to his release looks like ~10ft of distance. What an animal….
They're all great to watch and truly inspire to try and make my throw better, but specifically the line Mcbeth draws with the disc is just bonkers good. Not being a lanky monster he's getting massive distance/accuracy with just a beautiful line!
Very true! Same for the other small guy (I cannot remember his name...).
Some training videos talk about rotating the hips before the arm pulls through and others say you shouldn't do that. Watching these pros in slo-mo, it looks like a couple do start rotating hips first and a couple do not. The variation is slight, but I can see it in this video. Now I don't know what to think.... just need to hit the field and see what works best for me I guess.
Just now saw this video. I take literal steps in my X step, which I think hurts me. I am a bigger guy, 6'4, like Eagle but not quite as lanky. I am going to try and use Ricky/Paul's mini crow hop in the middle of the X step and see how it works for me. Watching videos of myself, I see that I am using mainly just my arms to drive, with little hip and leg usage.
scott stokely says on his channel it is appropriate for taller players to take actual steps rather than a hop
@@troggleous yeah. I've actually reworked my form and took it out. No more crow hopping for me.
So cool to watch in slow Mo, I shoot very similar to McBeth because I’m 5’9 and like to hop on my X step and put my front foot really far out... almost as good as mine 😅
Push off rear foot?
Wow look how the Eagles hand suddenly stops and stays long time steady, looks great at slowed to 0,25 :D
I SWEAR that looking at Eagle's throw here at .25x speed is altered (even though I know it isn't)! The disc literally DOES NOT MOVE as he comes out of the x-step and plants his foot, almost like his arm CAN'T move from that spot (other than to extend) and then just POWERS through that throw! WOW!!
I've watched ricky's throw probably hundreds of times at this point. The more times i watch the more i realize it all comes down to lower body. I can throw 400' on a good day and my footwork is definitely way off.
I throw standstills. The end of their running wind-up to the pitch is what I'm trying to nail.
DIsc Golf Teachers: You should have no energy left after the brace. If you are falling forward, you are not bracing properly.
Paul McBeth: 1:44
For normal controlled power shots with slower run ups, that holds true, but when players go for max distance and increase the speed of their run ups then yes their momentum can carry them past their plant leg. Worth noting though, most Paul's center of gravity still continues to stay behind his plant leg, even after the pivot and little hop motion, which allows him to step down with trailing foot pretty softly at the end. The players that are losing power due to poor bracing will have their whole center of gravity go past their plant leg and have to forcefully catch their body weight with their trailing foot or they will literally fall forward to the ground.
His front foot slips like crazy on the tee when he planted it. I bet that was a big part of it
If someone were to make a form video on RUclips and wanted to use a clip from this video to diagnose Macbeth’s form...would you be cool with that
ruclips.net/video/nB_1Cmz5NZk/видео.html this guy helped my drives a lot
Wow!
Anyone else see Paul defy gravity at the end? 😂😂😂
anyone else make gunshot sound effects when eagle threw? talk about pulling back and firing off.
I'm a little late to the show here but I did. You got me.
Paul put some sauce on that, wooo
Eagle appears to have a little bit of a dip on his approach. The others are as level as you can possibly get. I never paid much attention to this before now....
Wow we now McBeth is insanely good but I can see where the power difference between McMahon and McBeth is! Just from this short clip. Thank you :)
Its like they're all aiming with their right hip/butt cheek. That's a data point for sure.
I thought McBeth was about to wipe tf out😂
It's surprising how far apart their feet are. All of them get that lead foot way out front, which seems to give them a better angle to stop their momentum. A lot of teachers say to keep your feet shoulder width, but these guys definitely are not.
yes that's why. To aplly a force parallel to the ground you want to angle yourself as much as possible without slipping. Like if you were to push something heavy. The more of your forward motion (momentum) you can stop, the faster you will rotate
Teachers say that because it is appropriate for the power of a student. The more momentum you build up, the more leverage you need to transfer it to the disc. Doing such a wide step for a 300' shot would be counterproductive.
I couldn’t properly brace without trying to take a wide last step. Just finally started getting it this week.
Check out the balance on Kajiyama! Eagle has near perfect form here, sending all his energy into the shot.
Paul leaves the most energy on the table, and Ricky only leaves a little.
You can see the core wind up so much better in slow motion!
Hmmm. I just noticed something that Mcbeth and Wysocki do but Mcmahon and Kajiyama don't do.
well how about you share this observation
@@Postermaestro Ok. Mcbeth and Wysocki use their NON-throwing arm to generate force in rotating the torso upon initiating the forward movement after the peak of the reachback. Mcbeth does it more, followed by Wysocki, and now that I look again, Mcmahon does a little bit of it too.
Timestamps:
0:09 for Wysocki.
1:37 for Mcbeth.
Long after first seeing this vid, I saw a vid from Ezra that then clearly explains this concept. In Ezra's video, he explains how his left arm does a 2 step movement. First forward (towards the target), to generate speed, then rearward (away from the target), to generate a reactive FORCE towards the target. Timing is essential, because if you accelerate the left arm too late, when the torso has already started rotating forward, the result would be a terrible REARWARD force, robbing you of a lot of initial disc speed.
@@suserman7775 really good observation, thx for taking the time to point it out! My explanation for it is that when you pump you left arm clockwise and in you do 2 things: #1 decrease your moment of inertia which means your torso will rotate faster (think ice skater tucking arms). #2 rotate your torso. However if you rotate your torso your hips will rotate the other way (newton's 3rd law). You can try it yourself by standing with your feet forward, jump and punch/tuck your arm like they do, and watch how your feet land (pointing to the left if you punch with your left arm). In the actual throw you punch when the hip has transferred (or is transferring?) most of its momentum to the torso. Earlier and you make the hips rotate slower and you lose the advantage that the lag between hips and shoulders provides. Moving you arm in the opposite direction (counterclockwise) the opposite happens, so your torso rotates slower and your right arm rotates faster. Always about that timing
S Userman win tournaments?
This is a massive misinterpretation of what you're seeing.
The left arm is simply following the true source of power: the shoulders and hips. That's it. The rotation you get opening the hips up, in time with the shoulders, and then rotating is where the main power comes from in a throw, just like batting, pitching, tennis, etc.
Paul has the best form by far.
Incorrect
foot fault!!!