For those that want to understand why the Disc flies well with nose down is because at initial high velocity the center of lift is acting forward of the geometric center of the disc. This well give the disc an nose up pitch early in flight. If thrown flat the nose will rise increasing the angle of attack and lead to airflow separation on the top surface wich will reduce lift and speed. Just some basic aerodynamics for those interested.
Great explanation! What about putters or other flat discs then? There is no dome to generate lift. It's is mainly bottom side of a disc which keeps it flying. I guess those must be thrown flat?
@@tuomasluoma6095I tend to put nose up on putters when throwing them and try to put mid ranges flat. What I wonder though, is how spin affect the nose down -thing. What I have noticed, or feeling, is that when I get more spin on the disc, it seems to fly quite a bit longer (stays in the air longer). So basically I think it is a combination of the right angle with proper spin that makes the disc go far when throwing drivers. Obviously also needs speed.
My question is if speed or rpm matters on that angle. I've got a very slow arm. Around 50 on my good throws. I find that I throw further with about a 4* nose up angle.
Was just going to hop in to say this. It's not about more lift on one side or the other, it's about center of lift being further back at higher velocity and the direction of force being 90 degrees (due to gyroscopic precession) in the direction of rotation. When early in the flight the upward force of lift acts on the left side of the disc causing turn. As the flight slows the center of lift moves forward causing the force to act on the right side of the disc resulting in fade. A negative nose angle allows the center of lift to be further back for longer resulting in a a flight that doesn't immediately start to fade. Nose up makes the center of lift forward immediately so the fade starts of the hand.
After watching both FPO and MPO for two days at Maple Hill I realize that 95% of ams I see, including myself throw nose up. There is nothing that is more important than throwing nose down. Why should we even focus on any other form improvements before throwing nose down. It’s everything!
I threw hundreds of times with the Techdisc and nothing I tried would have me throw nose down. Then I saw this video and your tip about not unfurling the wrist. That was it! Not letting the unfurl was the first time I got a negative nose angle. You're the only person I've seen talk about this. It's really tough, though. I have to really concentrate and force myself to keep the wrist curled. It feels so unnatural to me. It's going to take tons of practice.
This is all true. Just as an adder: If you have tried all these things..check your weight transfer and make sure you're transferring your weight to the plant foot BEFORE you swing. Not only is this important for getting distance, the alignment of your hips can send the disc into the sky if you execute the swing too soon. Harder to see on backhand players but, go take a look at someone who throws forehand. When they throw and they aren't off their back foot, that disc goes sky high.
One thing I've discovered that has actually helped some other people, is to follow through with your hand still closed like it's gripping a disc. A lot of people try to "let go" when they throw, which pushes the thumb down and thus the nose up. If you follow through the whole swing with your hand still closed in the "poured" position, it's almost impossible to throw nose up.
Don't recall if it was this channel or another, but I recall a lesson on just this point. Let the disc rip out of your hand without changing your grip and hand position at all.
@@daemn42 I know there have been some videos about gripping it as hard as you can and throwing as hard as you can so you can feel the release point and how the disc pivots out of your hand, but I don't know if any of them went over how it relates to nose angle. Free bonus is you get a bunch of audible "snap" which really impresses people for some reason lol.
@@dw.discgolf it’s interesting because we are all taught to let the disc rip out of your hand but most of us open our hands up. I’m sure that creates an immense amount of wobble as well
This is the most important video on disc golf for my form, ever. I changed my grip because I wasn’t even allowing my disc to get any more nose-down than flat. This feels incredible. Thank you so much.
Unbelievable. This is why I come to you for coaching. The way you coach and explain things is SO effective. If I can understand it anyone can...lol. Thanks for the info as always.
This series is amazing…techdisc just arrived…2 hours on it and i never threw nose down…having this video will give me solid direction to grind. Techdisc is a game changer but your videos are essential to understand how to use it!! Ty!
This is helpful. I have a TechDisc that I have thrown a couple hundred times and my nose angle is still too high. Nose angle is on the + side at the moment. The TechDisc has helped me lower the nose angle and my throws are going much farther. I have birdied 2 holes on my local course that prior to TechDisc practice, I was always happy to get a par. Practice, Practice, Practice. I have a lot more work to do but am excited by the little progress I have seen so far. Thanks Josh and team..
Best advice I got was to focus on my elbow being above my wrist. I think it's somewhat a mental tip, perspective but it worked for me. It's amazing how much more distance you can get nose down
Another piece of the puzzle , that is basics of disc golf. Congrats Dakota , saw previous video with the tec disc, well done sir. Have to do mine old fashioned on the course. Getting there myself. Like my straight discs, a thing thing of beauty watching a disc just run exactly where u aim it. Nose issue has been a thing for me ,but Getting there. Keep it up, I tell everyone just starting to watch your videos , has been working for me.
DAKOTA WINS!!! Man of the people. Josh, You didn't move your off arm during Saturday night fever; Flawless victory. Mikey, You ever notice how hilarious Josh is at 1/4 speed? Don't take my word for it
I worked for 2 years to solve my nose angle issues. Pour the coffee didn't work; in fact it made it worse. Then one day I decided to really focus on my wrist hinge (ala Scott Stokely), not because of nose angle but just because I wanted to get better snap on the disc, and suddenly I was throwing at the correct angle. Pour the Coffee was literally causing my wrist to hinge at an angle and was forcing the nose up. Maybe I'm built a little different, but it made me believe that nose angle is a symptom of something else, and pour the coffee was the equivalent of taking medicine for a fever instead of treating the infection.
you can throw nose down at a throw of 45 degrees up in the sky, if the throwing line is going down and the disc angle of release is tilted down at release, actually try this at a hill side and a net with the data disc, it will show nose down even then -2 deg so the high or low has nothing to do with the nose angle, nose down is important... great video 👍
ohh i was wrong, now i know what nose down is 😮👍 allways tought it was about the launch angle or is it, if i throw 45 degrees on launch angle and nose at 43 degrees, isn't that nose down, must be correct in a way ? 🤔🫣
The game within the game. Been watching since the beginning m80 - the notice in quality production (ironically also has a game within the game) has been getting so great. Your fitness journey has also been amazing to see overtime. Thanks for the vid - I have a golf net and a few courses which have drive nets for warmup, but really it makes absolutely 0 sense for me to unload 30 drivers into those things and be like "yea that felt good" super excited for the next generations of data discs and apps.
Having a tennis teaching background, it seems logical that you (better than most) should help us find that exact "hit/release" point in our throw. Finding the same position where the disc releases in your throw is more important than any other factor I can see. Pouring the tee doesn't matter if you constantly release late or early. Finding that exact hit/release point in the throw must come before everything, correct? Seeing a top angle looking down at top players as they release the disc is helpful. Is it before the plant foot, on the plant foot, or after the plant foot? Gannon B talks about the top of the disc facing your chest as you set your plant foot. Think Proctor. I find this OK, but it is hard to sync constantly with touch shots. I guess I just don't see how you can do this drill before completely understanding the release point/hit. Sorry if you covered that and I missed it. Keep up the excellent work. P.S. Have you considered breaking out the 70's coaching shorts? That would be epic!
I had this same realization quite recently. Started focusing on the towel snap and making sure I my peck engages to hit at that right moment. I definitely have to slow it down cus I've firing from my lower body way to quickly. So now I'm working backwards again. Seeing distance gains already.
I think that there's a balance to nose down as well. If I flex my wrist down to the maximum tilt I can't keep it there and my wrist ends up popping slightly up. I changed recently to flex the wrist down slightly less where there was no exertion and my flight started looking better/more consistent.
What is needed in this discussion of angle of attack is slow motion video of "nose down" actually flying better than a neutral angle of attack. Tech Disc is a great tool, but I am very skeptical that what is being called nose down = a negative angle of attack and not roll angle instead. Nose up is a common problem for sure, and I believe what people are getting from videos like these is how to reduce nose up angles and get closer to a level release, which is a great benefit and can add big distance. Having the disc be anything other than completely parallel with the pitch angle is problematic and will increase drag substantially. Imagine this: You are driving in a car going 60mph you have a disc on a pivoting fixture that only allows positive or negative pitch (nose down, level and nose up) You stick this fixture out the window and you start with the disc perfectly level (and parallel with the cars trajectory through the air) this is optimal. If you move the nose up even 1 degree, the disc will want to go up and if it is not allowed to, there will be a lot of drag. The same is true for nose down. A negative angle will make the disc want to go towards the ground. A disc is also a wing, so the exception to all of this is that in level flight, most discs create lift, and this can result in a disc gaining a little altitude while also have a neutral angle of attack. Disc spin adds gyroscopic stability, but a non spinning disc has the same wing shape and generation of lift, etc. I contend that ANY level throw that gains altitude after release has a zero or a positive angle of attack. Any throw that loses altitude immediately after release has a nose down, negative angle. I will be very interested if these concepts can be proven wrong with something other than the Tech Disc. Anyone work at a wind tunnel?
Retired guy recently taking up Disc Golf: I had no idea throwing downward. Perhaps that's why I've had so many lofted discs getting lost in the woods. I had "thought" throwing "up" at an angle, (like a baseball), would get me longer distance. Thank you as always, sharing your passion, your expertise, for the "new kids on the block". 😊. Stay Blessed. 👍
Just to clarify. You can throw upward with a nose down disc. So not grounders for example. Swing up but throw nose down. You might have already had that mentality but I am just making sure to clarify
Huh? Thank you so much GREATLY, for an individual reply! / I will experiment tomorrow with low throws, and higher throws at the 4 degree down nose. I am so looking forward to tomorrow. I will practice slowly, not try to throw hard, and try to master the proper angle. You're the best! Thank you.
To throw nose-down, rather than pushing the nose down, I sometimes lift the back of the disc with my fingers as I release it. Mostly on putts, but I've thrown some great drives doing this also. Give it a try please.
Might've been good to point out that nose down is relative to the trajectory, that is to say if im throwing a level throw my arm and disc move level but the angle of attack is down by 4 degrees.
So Josh I find that I refer disc golf back to martial arts a lot and when you talk about doing shadow swings it's very similar to shadow boxing. When you talk about going slow I would like to point out that much like doing martial arts. Cottas you would do this dynamically you would do it slowly intentionally training your muscles to get into those positions. And yes that means that it feels like a rigid movement at the time. But because you do that so many times, like if you did 100 reps of shadow swings dynamically when you relax and you go to throw your fast twitch muscles are what you're actually training and so all of a sudden you find that you can do this during the off seasons. I live in Michigan which is snowy right? So I'm not always able to get out on the course, but I make it a point to do at least 20 or 30, sometimes 100 if I can manage it on a day off dynamic throws in order to help myself improve. And just this summer alone I noticed an increase of about 60 to 70 ft just because of that. So I encourage people to take their time videotape themselves. Make sure they're getting into the position they want. Start at your feet and work your way up that way. You know you get it right and I guarantee everyone will see progress, but I would love to know your opinion specifically on dynamic shadow swings?
Okay, I think this video helped me a lot, I’ll head to the field tomorrow. Now how do I get more spin? I can barely turn a diamond over with a backhand
Some pros seem to put there thumbs across the flight plate such that it looks like the palm is almost on top of the disc. I’m that grip, it seems that they are not pinching the thumb and index as mashing the flight plate in (distorting the flight plate. I think @seabass22 had a video comparing it to shooting a quarter across a table. I would be curious to see the video on thumb position relative to spin and speed rates combined with nose angle effects. I would also like to see a forehand nose angle video too. Thank you for the videos!
I have noticed that as well. Pros grips look so much different than 90% of people i see even in Ma1. Sometimes I wonder if its just because they are so tall their hands are bigger than im used to seeing so thats just how it appears to us.
Question: at 3:50 you talk about un furling your wrist as a negative thing when it comes to nose angle. Which I understand. What I don’t understand is aren’t you losing potential power by not unfurling your wrist at the end of the throw? Wouldn’t that cause less “Snap” on the disc? And over all less of a whip like feeling?
Counter intuitive I know, but the wrist isn’t actually fast/strong enough to help unfurl the hand at high speeds. Better to let the disc force any unfurl they may happen
Great video! I learned a lot, but i dont understand the wrist part. The disc is released when the wrist unfurls so it seems like the nose should be down when the wrist is unfurling. Why do we care about the nose angle with the wrist still curled?
Straight elbow thrown is in relation to the shoulders. When you bend over at the hips you will naturally elbow up in reference to the ground but level with your shoulders.
This is kind of a weird question, but: When I look at top-down slow motion footage of throws, the disc doesn’t actually leave the hand in the direction the nose is pointing. I fully believe that what you show fixes nose angle issues, but, uh, why?
Anyone with ideas to help? I can throw a forehand 5 speed over 300 but can’t backhand a driver even 300. It’s clearly not a speed issue and maybe a form issue, but I believe I just don’t own the proper discs (4 total). Any suggestions for a long distance disc that wants to stay straight on a backhand?
Like so many, I'm still struggling to understand how to throw upwards AND nose down at the same time. It's mind boggling. Any good ways to simplify and explain it to us?
Another good thing is to squeeze your thumb towards your index finger (while pressing down enough on the disc to keep the thumb from actually moving). If you look at the backswing of Simon's slow-mo form, you can see his hand is down in a manner that is pretty unnatural for people, but it happens automatically for me if I focus on the thumb pressure. For ultra-elite distance, throw the disc flat but give it the nose-down angle relative to its trajectory by pumping with your legs to give the disc an upward trajectory while travelling flat (like Kristian Kuoksa). This seems completely impossible for me to do though, so I stick with the thumb pressure.
I could be completely wrong but It seems a little miss leading to explain showing the release with the arm extended when the disc actually comes out before you reach full extension
I am so confused! I just got a tech disc and my numbers look good but my nose angle is garbage. I spent 2 hours this morning throwing again and again and again into a new changing the smallest little things at 50% power to only even throw down (-.7) once. I have no idea what I'm doing wrong! I'm turning the key, pouring the coffee but I don't know... Any more tips?
@@OverthrowDiscGolf Things are actually progressing! The tip that got me going was from Brodie. He basically explained that your thumb needs to stay on top of the disc all the way through your swing. I think I was subconsciously flipping my wrist out once I got to the hit to try to generate more power. I slowed everything down, focused on the tips, and it worked! I'm averaging around 1 to 2 degrees on a regular throw now with a few shots going down into the negative angles!
You insinuated that a player with a low reach-back will throw nose-up, and a player with a high reach-back will throw nose-down. Can a disc be thrown up hill while also being nose-down?
Awesome! I just got my tech disc to work on nose angle and spin. Will you be making a spin video? I can’t get my spin over 1100rpm my average is just at a 1000. I also don’t get any snap.
Oh, have you thought about using the simulation on throws to get a true reading of the disc path during the reach back and pull? I was looking at AB, Calvin, and Emerson’s data on the live data. AB’s path is a straight line, Calvin and Emerson is a high to straight.
@@samrobert2138 I think the pathing will become even more accurate and easier to read. Im definitely interested in looking into that more when it happens
@@OverthrowDiscGolf Just got some throws in. Using what’s in the video I was able to get nose down, but couldn’t maintain a negative angle past 45mph. I added Gannon’s clip about the elbow being above the wrist and was able to get consistent nose down up to 62mph.
Should the forearm be supinate or pronated. I threw forearm very pronated for years to keep the disc below the elbow but recently started experimenting with supination and felt an improvement with release consistency and disc flight.
More like 10 because the elbow and wrist are not straight at release. But from the angle the filmed this it's a bit hard to make out how Josh is holding his arm. It looks like he has it a bit too much forward.
More info to come on that. He is still in the slower phase of it right now. He’s throwing about 5mph less to get the nose down but the distance looks the same. Will have to see what happens when he can get it down at his normal tempo
One quick question. I didn't see if it was already asked. But how is it possible to throw nose down but give it the height the pros do to go super far if we are throwing flat and not disco. I've gotten consistent ish throwing around 330 and my whole flight is less then 15ft in the air the whole way on a flat field. But the pros look like they are launching it 40+ feet in the air of height to go 600. Are they still nose down?
Nose angle is relative to launch angle. That’s why I used the forearm as a guide in this video because it’s easier to see nose down in reference to the forearm versus imagining the nose down in relation to the launch angle
So.. How I see tha data from this video and how it makes sense to me: Nose down cant be on 2 direction so 1 direction is either noseup-nosedown or hyzer-anhyzer. It seems like pouring the coffee is increasing hyzer and supinating wrist is increasing nosedown. Supinating wrist affects to 9 o’clock in powerpocket, pouring the coffee 6 o’clock in powerpocket.
If you hold a disc out in front of you with a forehand grip, and then rotate your wrist forward and back you'll notice that you already have full range of motion in the nose down direction, all the way to about -90 degrees. So in theory getting the disc nose down is just a matter of picking your angle and sticking to it. The problem with forehand is if you combine a little nose down, with a bunch of wobble (forehand throws often come out with wobble) it will immediately flip over into heavy anhyzer (and you may already be releasing on anhyzer because you're not leaning forward far enough), so usually the challenge is to find a release that is comfortable, nose down and *smoooth*. What I personally find helps is to think about pushing a little bit diagonally into the inner rim rather than "straight".
The relevant nose angle, in terms of what the disc does, is the angle of attack to the air. The disc doesn't care much about its angle to the ground. So when you throw completely flat, but hard enough to generate lift, there's a negative angle of attack even though the disc is flat in relation to the ground. The disc is horizontal but traveling upwards, so it acts as though the nose is down. So the 'correct' nose angle is going to vary greatly depending on headwinds, glidey versus non-glidey discs (which have different amounts of lift), whether you're throwing a high or low line, and much else.
My question is: Where is the actual 'nose' during the release point? I don't think it's as simple as straight in front of you, and pouring the coffee is only one factor. Interesting that you don't really go into detail about supination and release point. I see you have the chapter but you don't actually show much, if anything about it. You had a video about a year ago talking about it a little bit, and I remember it helped me a lot. I think more info about finding an individuals true release point/leading edge, and how wrist supination and pouring the coffee effect the plane of release not only for Z axis(nose angles) but also X axis (hyzer angles).
The back edge will proceed to where the front edge is via pivot. If you focus on where the front edge is nose wise you’ll get the back edge thrown in basically. Rolling your arm is layman’s terms for supination which I definitely showed
When I learned how to throw nose down I gained about 50 feet of distance but now if I try to throw anhyzer or flat I have no control because I am trying to keep the nose down and it feels so unnatural. so now I can only throw on hyzer RIP.
The same tips I've gotten from EVERYWHERE throughout the years. Nothing in this video works for me. F*ck that's annoying. However, if you have the same issue as I have, it's probably the mobility of your wrist/elbow AND there is a way to throw nose down or at least way closer to nose down than I threw before. It's holding the disc/wrist sideways (top of the disc pointing at my chest) during the reachback and turning it during the throwing motion. This lets my body get into the proper nose angle position for a brief moment just before releasing the disc. I expected more from this video after the title tbh. EDIT. I guess it's sort of mentioned that you only have to be in this position at the hit point but I've seen this tip before, doesn't f'n work.
You would have to have severe lack of wrist mobility for none of this to work. The wrist isn’t very mobile in this direction to begin with but remember you only need a little nose down. I would be interested to see how you practice as I have never met someone incapable of getting to the correct position. It is certainly possible that mobility is an issue but unlikely
tell me private i just want to know your answer to this, if its v shape its nose up and if its ^ its nose down, draw line from a - b - c, start middle release, plus angle on disc ofc 🙂
As a real question though. When throwing into a headwind nose down my discs were level and straight. With the tailwind they appeared to be very nose up. What's actually expected to happen there.
I see a lot of beginners throwing this into the ground with that advice which may be correct for some I don't know but teaching off some Newfound tech device to the masses seems a bit sketchy
@@OverthrowDiscGolf from them trying to throw it out at a 4% downgrade angle. Not knocking I'm just thinking. I don't have an issue with throwing high so maybe I just don't get it but God bless you sir
@@tonystreehouse7269 nose angle isn’t based on the launch angle though so they don’t need to throw with a downgrade. Better to throw up while nose down
For those that want to understand why the Disc flies well with nose down is because at initial high velocity the center of lift is acting forward of the geometric center of the disc. This well give the disc an nose up pitch early in flight. If thrown flat the nose will rise increasing the angle of attack and lead to airflow separation on the top surface wich will reduce lift and speed. Just some basic aerodynamics for those interested.
Great explanation! What about putters or other flat discs then? There is no dome to generate lift. It's is mainly bottom side of a disc which keeps it flying. I guess those must be thrown flat?
@@tuomasluoma6095I tend to put nose up on putters when throwing them and try to put mid ranges flat. What I wonder though, is how spin affect the nose down -thing. What I have noticed, or feeling, is that when I get more spin on the disc, it seems to fly quite a bit longer (stays in the air longer). So basically I think it is a combination of the right angle with proper spin that makes the disc go far when throwing drivers. Obviously also needs speed.
What kind of planes do you fly?
My question is if speed or rpm matters on that angle. I've got a very slow arm. Around 50 on my good throws. I find that I throw further with about a 4* nose up angle.
Was just going to hop in to say this. It's not about more lift on one side or the other, it's about center of lift being further back at higher velocity and the direction of force being 90 degrees (due to gyroscopic precession) in the direction of rotation. When early in the flight the upward force of lift acts on the left side of the disc causing turn. As the flight slows the center of lift moves forward causing the force to act on the right side of the disc resulting in fade. A negative nose angle allows the center of lift to be further back for longer resulting in a a flight that doesn't immediately start to fade. Nose up makes the center of lift forward immediately so the fade starts of the hand.
After watching both FPO and MPO for two days at Maple Hill I realize that 95% of ams I see, including myself throw nose up. There is nothing that is more important than throwing nose down. Why should we even focus on any other form improvements before throwing nose down. It’s everything!
I threw hundreds of times with the Techdisc and nothing I tried would have me throw nose down. Then I saw this video and your tip about not unfurling the wrist. That was it! Not letting the unfurl was the first time I got a negative nose angle. You're the only person I've seen talk about this. It's really tough, though. I have to really concentrate and force myself to keep the wrist curled. It feels so unnatural to me. It's going to take tons of practice.
This is all true.
Just as an adder: If you have tried all these things..check your weight transfer and make sure you're transferring your weight to the plant foot BEFORE you swing. Not only is this important for getting distance, the alignment of your hips can send the disc into the sky if you execute the swing too soon.
Harder to see on backhand players but, go take a look at someone who throws forehand. When they throw and they aren't off their back foot, that disc goes sky high.
One thing I've discovered that has actually helped some other people, is to follow through with your hand still closed like it's gripping a disc. A lot of people try to "let go" when they throw, which pushes the thumb down and thus the nose up. If you follow through the whole swing with your hand still closed in the "poured" position, it's almost impossible to throw nose up.
I’ll have to try this out
Don't recall if it was this channel or another, but I recall a lesson on just this point. Let the disc rip out of your hand without changing your grip and hand position at all.
@@daemn42 I know there have been some videos about gripping it as hard as you can and throwing as hard as you can so you can feel the release point and how the disc pivots out of your hand, but I don't know if any of them went over how it relates to nose angle. Free bonus is you get a bunch of audible "snap" which really impresses people for some reason lol.
Grip it!! I promise it will come out. Stop thinking, start throwing.
@@dw.discgolf it’s interesting because we are all taught to let the disc rip out of your hand but most of us open our hands up. I’m sure that creates an immense amount of wobble as well
This is the most important video on disc golf for my form, ever. I changed my grip because I wasn’t even allowing my disc to get any more nose-down than flat. This feels incredible. Thank you so much.
Anothrr great one with great description and demonstration. Shout out to all the timely added sound effect 😂
Good stuff! Could you make a vid about this with forehand, too?
I just rewatched the old video. Crazy timing
Unbelievable. This is why I come to you for coaching. The way you coach and explain things is SO effective. If I can understand it anyone can...lol. Thanks for the info as always.
Great tips! I put the placing the disc with my offhand, made a huge difference!
This series is amazing…techdisc just arrived…2 hours on it and i never threw nose down…having this video will give me solid direction to grind. Techdisc is a game changer but your videos are essential to understand how to use it!! Ty!
I got it so engrained in my head to “not roll the wrist” I think that really holds me back
Just recorded my updated form yesterday gotta check my angle.
It's slightly up but still flies flat. Hmmm . Gotta check when I get home on my PC not trying to slow it down on my phone.
This is helpful. I have a TechDisc that I have thrown a couple hundred times and my nose angle is still too high. Nose angle is on the + side at the moment. The TechDisc has helped me lower the nose angle and my throws are going much farther. I have birdied 2 holes on my local course that prior to TechDisc practice, I was always happy to get a par. Practice, Practice, Practice. I have a lot more work to do but am excited by the little progress I have seen so far. Thanks Josh and team..
Best advice I got was to focus on my elbow being above my wrist. I think it's somewhat a mental tip, perspective but it worked for me. It's amazing how much more distance you can get nose down
Good timing. I was watching one of your old videos about this exact thing last night
Another piece of the puzzle , that is basics of disc golf. Congrats Dakota , saw previous video with the tec disc, well done sir. Have to do mine old fashioned on the course. Getting there myself. Like my straight discs, a thing thing of beauty watching a disc just run exactly where u aim it. Nose issue has been a thing for me ,but Getting there. Keep it up, I tell everyone just starting to watch your videos , has been working for me.
Great video well done!
DAKOTA WINS!!! Man of the people. Josh, You didn't move your off arm during Saturday night fever; Flawless victory. Mikey, You ever notice how hilarious Josh is at 1/4 speed? Don't take my word for it
Grip was the key for me. I tried a bunch of stuff, and finally realized that my wrist would never bend far enough to go nose down with my grip.
I worked for 2 years to solve my nose angle issues. Pour the coffee didn't work; in fact it made it worse.
Then one day I decided to really focus on my wrist hinge (ala Scott Stokely), not because of nose angle but just because I wanted to get better snap on the disc, and suddenly I was throwing at the correct angle.
Pour the Coffee was literally causing my wrist to hinge at an angle and was forcing the nose up.
Maybe I'm built a little different, but it made me believe that nose angle is a symptom of something else, and pour the coffee was the equivalent of taking medicine for a fever instead of treating the infection.
Perfect video for my arch enemy. Nose up issues. 😂
you can throw nose down at a throw of 45 degrees up in the sky, if the throwing line is going down and the disc angle of release is tilted down at release, actually try this at a hill side and a net with the data disc, it will show nose down even then -2 deg so the high or low has nothing to do with the nose angle, nose down is important... great video 👍
ohh i was wrong, now i know what nose down is 😮👍 allways tought it was about the launch angle or is it, if i throw 45 degrees on launch angle and nose at 43 degrees, isn't that nose down, must be correct in a way ? 🤔🫣
The game within the game. Been watching since the beginning m80 - the notice in quality production (ironically also has a game within the game) has been getting so great. Your fitness journey has also been amazing to see overtime. Thanks for the vid - I have a golf net and a few courses which have drive nets for warmup, but really it makes absolutely 0 sense for me to unload 30 drivers into those things and be like "yea that felt good" super excited for the next generations of data discs and apps.
Having a tennis teaching background, it seems logical that you (better than most) should help us find that exact "hit/release" point in our throw. Finding the same position where the disc releases in your throw is more important than any other factor I can see. Pouring the tee doesn't matter if you constantly release late or early. Finding that exact hit/release point in the throw must come before everything, correct? Seeing a top angle looking down at top players as they release the disc is helpful. Is it before the plant foot, on the plant foot, or after the plant foot? Gannon B talks about the top of the disc facing your chest as you set your plant foot. Think Proctor. I find this OK, but it is hard to sync constantly with touch shots. I guess I just don't see how you can do this drill before completely understanding the release point/hit. Sorry if you covered that and I missed it. Keep up the excellent work. P.S. Have you considered breaking out the 70's coaching shorts? That would be epic!
No 70s shorts for me. We covered the nose angle in the release point/grip video we have at the top of the backhand playlist
I had this same realization quite recently. Started focusing on the towel snap and making sure I my peck engages to hit at that right moment. I definitely have to slow it down cus I've firing from my lower body way to quickly. So now I'm working backwards again. Seeing distance gains already.
Great explanation and instruction. Thank you
Thanks Josh, def something I fight with!
I think that there's a balance to nose down as well. If I flex my wrist down to the maximum tilt I can't keep it there and my wrist ends up popping slightly up. I changed recently to flex the wrist down slightly less where there was no exertion and my flight started looking better/more consistent.
good looking out. Gonna give this a go
Glad you didn't use 4:28 as the thumbnail.
Why would I do that?
🤣
What is needed in this discussion of angle of attack is slow motion video of "nose down" actually flying better than a neutral angle of attack. Tech Disc is a great tool, but I am very skeptical that what is being called nose down = a negative angle of attack and not roll angle instead. Nose up is a common problem for sure, and I believe what people are getting from videos like these is how to reduce nose up angles and get closer to a level release, which is a great benefit and can add big distance. Having the disc be anything other than completely parallel with the pitch angle is problematic and will increase drag substantially.
Imagine this: You are driving in a car going 60mph you have a disc on a pivoting fixture that only allows positive or negative pitch (nose down, level and nose up) You stick this fixture out the window and you start with the disc perfectly level (and parallel with the cars trajectory through the air) this is optimal. If you move the nose up even 1 degree, the disc will want to go up and if it is not allowed to, there will be a lot of drag. The same is true for nose down. A negative angle will make the disc want to go towards the ground. A disc is also a wing, so the exception to all of this is that in level flight, most discs create lift, and this can result in a disc gaining a little altitude while also have a neutral angle of attack. Disc spin adds gyroscopic stability, but a non spinning disc has the same wing shape and generation of lift, etc.
I contend that ANY level throw that gains altitude after release has a zero or a positive angle of attack. Any throw that loses altitude immediately after release has a nose down, negative angle. I will be very interested if these concepts can be proven wrong with something other than the Tech Disc. Anyone work at a wind tunnel?
I find I have more difficulty getting nose down with domey disc's (hi fission time lapse), do you have any tips for that?
Retired guy recently taking up Disc Golf: I had no idea throwing downward. Perhaps that's why I've had so many lofted discs getting lost in the woods. I had "thought" throwing "up" at an angle, (like a baseball), would get me longer distance. Thank you as always, sharing your passion, your expertise, for the "new kids on the block". 😊. Stay Blessed. 👍
Just to clarify. You can throw upward with a nose down disc. So not grounders for example. Swing up but throw nose down. You might have already had that mentality but I am just making sure to clarify
Huh? Thank you so much GREATLY, for an individual reply! / I will experiment tomorrow with low throws, and higher throws at the 4 degree down nose. I am so looking forward to tomorrow. I will practice slowly, not try to throw hard, and try to master the proper angle. You're the best! Thank you.
Worked on this today. Supinating my arm seemed to cause more anhyzer releases for me. More work to do
Combine with more waist bend and you’ve got a nose down hyzer
To throw nose-down, rather than pushing the nose down, I sometimes lift the back of the disc with my fingers as I release it. Mostly on putts, but I've thrown some great drives doing this also. Give it a try please.
Great vid! Thanks
I have found leading with the elbow helps me keep the disc nose down. At least for my throw.
This is the straight elbow I was mentioning.
Might've been good to point out that nose down is relative to the trajectory, that is to say if im throwing a level throw my arm and disc move level but the angle of attack is down by 4 degrees.
That’s what I was getting at with relating it to the forearm, just less specific wording
Video on how to avoid throwing nose up, but also giving the disc height?
So Josh I find that I refer disc golf back to martial arts a lot and when you talk about doing shadow swings it's very similar to shadow boxing. When you talk about going slow I would like to point out that much like doing martial arts. Cottas you would do this dynamically you would do it slowly intentionally training your muscles to get into those positions. And yes that means that it feels like a rigid movement at the time. But because you do that so many times, like if you did 100 reps of shadow swings dynamically when you relax and you go to throw your fast twitch muscles are what you're actually training and so all of a sudden you find that you can do this during the off seasons. I live in Michigan which is snowy right? So I'm not always able to get out on the course, but I make it a point to do at least 20 or 30, sometimes 100 if I can manage it on a day off dynamic throws in order to help myself improve. And just this summer alone I noticed an increase of about 60 to 70 ft just because of that. So I encourage people to take their time videotape themselves. Make sure they're getting into the position they want. Start at your feet and work your way up that way. You know you get it right and I guarantee everyone will see progress, but I would love to know your opinion specifically on dynamic shadow swings?
Dynamic shadow swings are great and probably necessary
I have an extremely hard time throwing nose down without it being hyzer. Any advice on how to throw flat or anhyzer nose down?
Is nose down also better for sidearms? I assume yes. How do we achieve that?
Thats a great question I would like to know the answer
Okay, I think this video helped me a lot, I’ll head to the field tomorrow. Now how do I get more spin? I can barely turn a diamond over with a backhand
More spin data series episode coming soon
Some pros seem to put there thumbs across the flight plate such that it looks like the palm is almost on top of the disc. I’m that grip, it seems that they are not pinching the thumb and index as mashing the flight plate in (distorting the flight plate. I think @seabass22 had a video comparing it to shooting a quarter across a table. I would be curious to see the video on thumb position relative to spin and speed rates combined with nose angle effects.
I would also like to see a forehand nose angle video too. Thank you for the videos!
I have noticed that as well. Pros grips look so much different than 90% of people i see even in Ma1. Sometimes I wonder if its just because they are so tall their hands are bigger than im used to seeing so thats just how it appears to us.
Question: at 3:50 you talk about un furling your wrist as a negative thing when it comes to nose angle. Which I understand. What I don’t understand is aren’t you losing potential power by not unfurling your wrist at the end of the throw? Wouldn’t that cause less “Snap” on the disc? And over all less of a whip like feeling?
Counter intuitive I know, but the wrist isn’t actually fast/strong enough to help unfurl the hand at high speeds. Better to let the disc force any unfurl they may happen
Great video! I learned a lot, but i dont understand the wrist part. The disc is released when the wrist unfurls so it seems like the nose should be down when the wrist is unfurling. Why do we care about the nose angle with the wrist still curled?
Because the disc is not released when the wrist unfurls.
How do you throw up into the air and nose down? If you can't go from low to high how else do you throw it up? Love the videos!
Straight elbow thrown is in relation to the shoulders. When you bend over at the hips you will naturally elbow up in reference to the ground but level with your shoulders.
For those of us not ready to buy a Techdisc what flight characteristic is the best evidence of a improper nose angle?
Flippy discs fade hard and fast. Can’t push overstable discs on turnover
This is kind of a weird question, but: When I look at top-down slow motion footage of throws, the disc doesn’t actually leave the hand in the direction the nose is pointing. I fully believe that what you show fixes nose angle issues, but, uh, why?
The disc will swing around the pivot so if you will have whatever part leads nose down all the same
Thank you! Discs are weird.
Anyone with ideas to help? I can throw a forehand 5 speed over 300 but can’t backhand a driver even 300. It’s clearly not a speed issue and maybe a form issue, but I believe I just don’t own the proper discs (4 total). Any suggestions for a long distance disc that wants to stay straight on a backhand?
Like so many, I'm still struggling to understand how to throw upwards AND nose down at the same time. It's mind boggling. Any good ways to simplify and explain it to us?
Get the nose down in reference to your forearm. Touched on it during this video
@@OverthrowDiscGolf nose down in relation to its trajectory, not as far as level is concerned, right?
@@HeronMarkHero correct
Why the room bare and why the sledgehammer? Also great vid
Another good thing is to squeeze your thumb towards your index finger (while pressing down enough on the disc to keep the thumb from actually moving). If you look at the backswing of Simon's slow-mo form, you can see his hand is down in a manner that is pretty unnatural for people, but it happens automatically for me if I focus on the thumb pressure.
For ultra-elite distance, throw the disc flat but give it the nose-down angle relative to its trajectory by pumping with your legs to give the disc an upward trajectory while travelling flat (like Kristian Kuoksa). This seems completely impossible for me to do though, so I stick with the thumb pressure.
Kuoksa is not a human
Ask Kuoksa to do a podcast with you@@OverthrowDiscGolf
@@teemuojaniitty9864 that’d be cool if he know what he’s talking about
@@teemuojaniitty9864 not saying he doesn’t. I just don’t know enough about him
I can get the nose down stand still but can’t get it down with an x step. Tried all the tricks. What can i do?
I could be completely wrong but It seems a little miss leading to explain showing the release with the arm extended when the disc actually comes out before you reach full extension
If I’m wrong (probably so) please explain
A little help: I was trying this in field work today, but whenever I “poured the coffee”, my discs would hyzer sharply like they were Tilts.
I would have to see it
ruclips.net/video/ixxcgdqb2Pk/видео.htmlsi=Z0Eoh1e8RQ0EUezk
I am so confused! I just got a tech disc and my numbers look good but my nose angle is garbage.
I spent 2 hours this morning throwing again and again and again into a new changing the smallest little things at 50% power to only even throw down (-.7) once. I have no idea what I'm doing wrong! I'm turning the key, pouring the coffee but I don't know...
Any more tips?
I’d need to see it
@@OverthrowDiscGolf Things are actually progressing! The tip that got me going was from Brodie. He basically explained that your thumb needs to stay on top of the disc all the way through your swing. I think I was subconsciously flipping my wrist out once I got to the hit to try to generate more power. I slowed everything down, focused on the tips, and it worked! I'm averaging around 1 to 2 degrees on a regular throw now with a few shots going down into the negative angles!
How does the techdisc measure nose angle? Is it relative to the ground or the launch angle?
It’s relative to launch.
You insinuated that a player with a low reach-back will throw nose-up, and a player with a high reach-back will throw nose-down. Can a disc be thrown up hill while also being nose-down?
The elbow is in reference to the shoulders basically. So a straight elbow if you are bent at the waist goes upward.
Awesome! I just got my tech disc to work on nose angle and spin. Will you be making a spin video? I can’t get my spin over 1100rpm my average is just at a 1000. I also don’t get any snap.
We will be making a spin video two tech disc episodes from now
Great! Thanks for the reply.
Oh, have you thought about using the simulation on throws to get a true reading of the disc path during the reach back and pull? I was looking at AB, Calvin, and Emerson’s data on the live data. AB’s path is a straight line, Calvin and Emerson is a high to straight.
@@samrobert2138 I think the pathing will become even more accurate and easier to read. Im definitely interested in looking into that more when it happens
@@OverthrowDiscGolf Just got some throws in. Using what’s in the video I was able to get nose down, but couldn’t maintain a negative angle past 45mph. I added Gannon’s clip about the elbow being above the wrist and was able to get consistent nose down up to 62mph.
one hack is to throw a dyed disc where the top is a different color from the bottom so you can easily tell by what color you're seeing
Should the forearm be supinate or pronated. I threw forearm very pronated for years to keep the disc below the elbow but recently started experimenting with supination and felt an improvement with release consistency and disc flight.
Supination moving into the hot to get the nose down. You can pronate after the hit into the follow through
its interesting because Heimberg always looked to me like he was a reverse disco thrower, maybe its just a trick of the eye at full speed
He is tricksy. His elbow is bent but is thrown straight
Isn’t the disc actually to be facing down when leaving more in front of you. The position you show is like 11 but should it not be 9 wise?
More like 10 because the elbow and wrist are not straight at release. But from the angle the filmed this it's a bit hard to make out how Josh is holding his arm. It looks like he has it a bit too much forward.
What distance improvement did Dakota get by throwing nose down but with the same arm speed?
More info to come on that. He is still in the slower phase of it right now. He’s throwing about 5mph less to get the nose down but the distance looks the same. Will have to see what happens when he can get it down at his normal tempo
Quality video! Thanks
One quick question. I didn't see if it was already asked. But how is it possible to throw nose down but give it the height the pros do to go super far if we are throwing flat and not disco. I've gotten consistent ish throwing around 330 and my whole flight is less then 15ft in the air the whole way on a flat field. But the pros look like they are launching it 40+ feet in the air of height to go 600. Are they still nose down?
Nose angle is relative to launch angle. That’s why I used the forearm as a guide in this video because it’s easier to see nose down in reference to the forearm versus imagining the nose down in relation to the launch angle
So.. How I see tha data from this video and how it makes sense to me:
Nose down cant be on 2 direction so 1 direction is either noseup-nosedown or hyzer-anhyzer. It seems like pouring the coffee is increasing hyzer and supinating wrist is increasing nosedown.
Supinating wrist affects to 9 o’clock in powerpocket, pouring the coffee 6 o’clock in powerpocket.
Right. You’ve got to get the front edge down at release basically
Okay all great info but now we need all this information to go with forehand’s please
If you hold a disc out in front of you with a forehand grip, and then rotate your wrist forward and back you'll notice that you already have full range of motion in the nose down direction, all the way to about -90 degrees. So in theory getting the disc nose down is just a matter of picking your angle and sticking to it. The problem with forehand is if you combine a little nose down, with a bunch of wobble (forehand throws often come out with wobble) it will immediately flip over into heavy anhyzer (and you may already be releasing on anhyzer because you're not leaning forward far enough), so usually the challenge is to find a release that is comfortable, nose down and *smoooth*. What I personally find helps is to think about pushing a little bit diagonally into the inner rim rather than "straight".
The relevant nose angle, in terms of what the disc does, is the angle of attack to the air. The disc doesn't care much about its angle to the ground.
So when you throw completely flat, but hard enough to generate lift, there's a negative angle of attack even though the disc is flat in relation to the ground. The disc is horizontal but traveling upwards, so it acts as though the nose is down.
So the 'correct' nose angle is going to vary greatly depending on headwinds, glidey versus non-glidey discs (which have different amounts of lift), whether you're throwing a high or low line, and much else.
How does Kyle klein get the nose down when he reaches down so low?
You can keep the disc on plane with a low reachback. There aren’t that many people that do, but it isn’t all that uncommon
My question is: Where is the actual 'nose' during the release point? I don't think it's as simple as straight in front of you, and pouring the coffee is only one factor.
Interesting that you don't really go into detail about supination and release point. I see you have the chapter but you don't actually show much, if anything about it.
You had a video about a year ago talking about it a little bit, and I remember it helped me a lot. I think more info about finding an individuals true release point/leading edge, and how wrist supination and pouring the coffee effect the plane of release not only for Z axis(nose angles) but also X axis (hyzer angles).
The back edge will proceed to where the front edge is via pivot. If you focus on where the front edge is nose wise you’ll get the back edge thrown in basically. Rolling your arm is layman’s terms for supination which I definitely showed
video on tail angle please.
What’s that gorgeous blue disc in your hand?
Twas an OT ethereal pathfinder
When I learned how to throw nose down I gained about 50 feet of distance but now if I try to throw anhyzer or flat I have no control because I am trying to keep the nose down and it feels so unnatural. so now I can only throw on hyzer RIP.
Interesting. I don’t know why
So how do you throw for greater height while keeping it nose down without doing disco?
Bend at the waist and you will naturally finish higher
Gotcha. Thanks!
But what did nose down add to his distance?
We don’t know. He keeps hitting first available because his discs turn over now.
I’ve been needing to fix my nose for a while
The same tips I've gotten from EVERYWHERE throughout the years. Nothing in this video works for me. F*ck that's annoying. However, if you have the same issue as I have, it's probably the mobility of your wrist/elbow AND there is a way to throw nose down or at least way closer to nose down than I threw before. It's holding the disc/wrist sideways (top of the disc pointing at my chest) during the reachback and turning it during the throwing motion. This lets my body get into the proper nose angle position for a brief moment just before releasing the disc. I expected more from this video after the title tbh.
EDIT. I guess it's sort of mentioned that you only have to be in this position at the hit point but I've seen this tip before, doesn't f'n work.
You would have to have severe lack of wrist mobility for none of this to work. The wrist isn’t very mobile in this direction to begin with but remember you only need a little nose down. I would be interested to see how you practice as I have never met someone incapable of getting to the correct position. It is certainly possible that mobility is an issue but unlikely
thx for this video but at 4:54 the nose is down, draw a line and you see, both are actually. 😝☺️
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tell me private i just want to know your answer to this, if its v shape its nose up and if its ^ its nose down, draw line from a - b - c, start middle release, plus angle on disc ofc 🙂
thank you. good to know!
dang slim.
4:32 risky gesture
.
@@OverthrowDiscGolf :)
I've never wanted to double-subscribe to a channel before, but..
Every time I try "pouring the pot" it just makes my nose angle worse.
Try pouring it the other way?
As a real question though. When throwing into a headwind nose down my discs were level and straight. With the tailwind they appeared to be very nose up. What's actually expected to happen there.
@@markangelow any nose up issues are exacerbated by tail wind. So you’re observing a normal occurrence
@@OverthrowDiscGolf thanks for clarifying. Wouldn't throwing into a head wind nose up send the disc high instead of level?
I see a lot of beginners throwing this into the ground with that advice which may be correct for some I don't know but teaching off some Newfound tech device to the masses seems a bit sketchy
Throwing it into the ground with which advice from this?
@@OverthrowDiscGolf from them trying to throw it out at a 4% downgrade angle. Not knocking I'm just thinking. I don't have an issue with throwing high so maybe I just don't get it but God bless you sir
@@tonystreehouse7269 nose angle isn’t based on the launch angle though so they don’t need to throw with a downgrade. Better to throw up while nose down
@@OverthrowDiscGolf thank you for your thoughts appreciate it
Man I still suck at this
Not talking about launch angle is crazy
Not really.