Faster Isn't Always Better: Why This Super Aero Position Is Dangerous
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- Опубликовано: 24 июл 2024
- Time Trial bikes have been featured in the press a lot recently, following some high profile crashes. It is thought that these have been the result of the super aerodynamic position cyclists adopt on the bike, known as the "Head Down" position. But just how much faster is this position, and why is is so unsafe? Alex and Ollie are at Llandow Circuit in Wales to find out.
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Do you think the UCI rules regarding TT bikes and/or positions should be changed?
yes. just go to straight velomobile for TTs
I guess a head down position is more aero on a regular road bike too, so banning TT bikes would solve nothing, time trials would happen on road bikes whilst riders trying to pick up the most ridiculous positions possible that includes heads down riding. I also suggest UCI to modify rules on TT bars to allow more freedom and it might sound silly but a chin holder added to the TT bars might mean a difference too. That way looking forwards and tucking your head completely down at the same time could be possible.
Yes! And I speak from experience having raced UCI regulated provincials, nationals and four GFWC world championships in Europe. The rules are dangerous especially for someone with long arms. They also penalize those with mechanical shifters versus electronic. The aerobar pad /extension height rule should be removed altogether and the extension length rule should also be changed.
Yes, they should ban head down positions.
Don't really care what they decide about the bars, but the core issue is not being able to see, so they should address that directly instead of changing the bikes and hoping it will change rider behavior.
Probably should have done this in an indoor velodrome... to reduce a few variables.
We probably would have ended up dryer
Much better with some real life results. The logical extrapolation otherwise would be to just leave it up to computers to calculate
@@keithmaclure9101 as someone who tests AI qualitatively I can assure you we can't only rely on the math alone. It needs to be merged with real life data and reconciled.
@@retardno002 I think we said the same thing?
It looks way cooler outside in that quintessential British weather.
The 10cm rule is not well thought out because it favours smaller riders. It should be a percentage of the tri bar length. No wonder Ganna rides in that strange position
NONE of the rules in UCI are "well thought out" to make racing fair.
But it helps make up for the 6.8kg rule, which favours taller riders
@@BladeBarn "noooo you can't make a fairing around your chainrings"
@@ds6914 it doesn't favour taller riders, they aren't given a lighter bike than smaller riders it evens the playing field so they ride a bike of the same weight!
@@oliveremmerson-fish7486 I think you're missing their point. The larger a rider you are, the smaller the percentage of total weight comes from the bikes. So, proportionately, a larger rider has less bike weight to move relative to their body than a lighter rider. A rider at 85kg on a 7.5kg bike hauls around less relative bike weight than a 60kg rider on a 6.8 kg bike.
A great amount of amateur accidents I read about here in Germany happen with normal race bikes, but following the pattern of Egan Bernals crash. A parked car, especially on a country road, is easily mistaken for a moving one. I guess every cyclist had moments like these, realising the obstacle in the very last second. You don't need a time trial bike for this.
when you're pushing FTP your brain is slower, anyway
@@KirbyZhang That’s an interesting obeservation and might explain a thing or two.
I can get in enough trouble with head up. Last week had a dog ambush me. He seen me coming but I did not see him until he was running out of the ditch toward my front wheel. Stop as loud as I could. He stoped and I swear he smiled. Some kind of herding dog.😅
I’m going to use this for my biomechanic appointment to proper set me on my TT bike. I was asking him to position me ‘Praying Mantis’ style and now I have some proper science all in one place. As usual, great scientific content from Alex and Olli!
Chris Froome killed a man earlier in his career on a TT bike. He was riding back from a TT near Nice to his home - which was reasonably near by - and collided with a pedestrian who he didn't see at speed. Unfortunately, the old man later died. This in Froome's autobiography from a few years ago.
I know that my head eventually drops down due to neck and shoulders aching so much in the "head up" position. However, for me the bigger issue is in the TT position I end up looking over the top rim of my spectacles, so everything in the distance is very blurry. I've recently abandoned the idea of contact lenses because I struggled to get them in and out and then had sore eyes for several days after. My current solution is to fit a small elastic band between the nose clips to raise the spectacles on my face - cheap solution.
sounds like a hack
@@gcntech Lol ! No, I'll accept my fix is a bodge, but it does work. A hack would be laser eye surgery to correct my poor vision. Joking aside though, maintaining a good un-compromised lookout on the road is so important. I'm very pleased to see that GCN have raised the issue for education and debate.
thanks I will try that fix. I played around so much with glasses. I ended up not wearing the prescription glasses. Best sun glasses have no rim I have found..
Very informative guys. Thank you for this. I saw Chloe Dygert's crash on her TT bike in the 2020 Worlds, it was bad.
On the 40k of an olympic triathlon, that 14 sec faster with the head down (for 7k) means 1:15-1:30. It's huge. It is more than what all my year of training can give me; it's more than most gear or components I can change on my bike. So, that is sad to say, but what that video does to me is only to convince me that riding head down in a time trial is a must. For me, in a triathlon, that could well be the difference between finishing on or out of my age group top places. Hard to say no to that position for the sake of safety (because we are not talking, here, about going down a hill at 100 kph, we are talking about going straight line at, say, 40 kph).
I think drafting allowed rules would negate that difference.
I think itu cross and mtb triathlons are a better measure of cycling capacity for triathlons.
How about some stats on crashes on TTs vs other types of bikes. Also stats on Deaths, maimings, and spike protein heart attacks in UCI deadly races versus good, pure blood and fairly administered races
Thankfully for me, after plenty of aero testing with my coach, my TT position is faster when my head is up and the helmet tucks into the space above my shoulders nicely. Though a small difference, putting my head down increase frontal area a touch.
That's great you've managed to get aero with your head up, it can be just as fast!
May I ask what helmet you have? Because I feel like this may also have an impact on this. Seems like you've got the safer one ;))
That bike is the worth of my house.
literally 😭
Richie Rich here with a house!
Lol how much is that?
@@Rob-bn6wg Depends
@@Rob-bn6wg aero bikes like that cost $15,000 more or less
I get a kick out of Alex putting on the same helmet I have. Those helmets rock! The swappable faceplate is the best part of them
Added bonus of looking ready to keep the Death Star Plans from Darth Vader's hands
I like the "Pinky and The Brain" chemistry between these two. Also, Alex is slowly adopting Ollie's humour, which is just brilliant. :D
Lol, "Pinky and the Brain, one's a genius and the other insane, laboratory mice, their genes have been spliced..."
Oh dear, are we going to end up with two Ollies??
Just put a mirror prism in the helmet visor - then you can keep you head down and still look to the front.
Ollie - “…..they (UCI) have no jurisdiction here”
Also Ollie - “I’m getting a EPO Transfusion for medicinal purposes.”
more TT with Alex and Ollie. Is Si still suffering from his long distance event?
Suggestions when you guys are testing like this, you should do a rolling start at 300 watts through the start line.
I think the weather was far worse in the TT bike timing so perhaps you would need to add sometime additional time off so I guess the difference may be more 20 secs plus. Good job Alex
I'm waiting for technology to step up to this problem by providing a HUD for the racers inside their helmets to give them better situational awareness.
Then you might as well ride backwards which might be more aero ... 😉
Couldn't they just put some sort of mirror on the handlebars to see forward?
@@stephenwatkins7592 everything would be mirrored... Which could cause issues.
@@brianwright9514 make it _two_ mirrors, angled at 20° or so.
I’m surprised it doesn’t already exist, with a small camera like you have in a phone and a small display mounted inside the visor, it doesn’t seem a difficult problem for anyone who is a bit handy with electronics
I crashed 3 weeks ago because of this. But on MTB with my roadie friends.
From Just riding road personally it seems mad that your hands are no where near your brake and on public roads in traffic I can imagine it’s those few tenths of a second to move your hands as much as it is your visibility
I wonder if installing a garmin varia radar facing forward works the same as facing back. This will make it a bit safer, at least you will see if there is vehicles ahead of you in your head unit
Dr Bridgewood is having an effect on the next generation. We are currently camping in Aviemore with the kids and bikes. Just found my 8 year old daughter is trying to coach another kid she had just met on how to go faster by being more aero.
I’d be curious to see crash statistics due to TT bikes out of the triathlon world where they are much more dominated by the TT bike. I find, personally, that with enough practice I’m just as (if not more) comfortable on mine. In my opinion, I think much of the bad rap assumes that you MUST be in TT the entire time. On any given ride (just as on a regular road bike) I could be TT head down, TT head up, on the hoods tucked, hoods upright and it really depends on the situation.
how about putting a small camera at the front of the bike, and mount a screen display just like a bike computer to see the road and obstacles ahead?
Huge difference between a professional time trial on closed roads, and amateur time trial on open roads but with signage, marshalls and enough cyclists around for most motorists to get the message and where some of the recent crashes have happened with cyclists out on training runs. Cycling on open roads in the UK can be dangerous enough without the cyclist adding to the risk factor by limiting their awareness of what's happening around/in front of them.
Easy solution. Install a camera out front and mount a display inside the helmet or on the cockpit.
that sounds scary, it kind of becomes a VR game at that point
@@ranitbose9609 The car industry been implementing Backup cameras, heads-up displays or parking aids in cars for years.
yea but there is a diffrence between parking a car and riding above 50 kmh in traffic lol
@@Cryr213 It's better than not to see anything. Combined with perimeter sensor it could give the rider audio signals to avoid dangerous situations. Also time trials in the professional segment are held at courses where cars are blocked off.
That’s adding at least 1kg of weight smartie! Big no
I wonder how fast the same route would be at the same watts on a beach cruiser bike. Could it be done in under 10 minutes?
Definitely try to "look through my eyelids" when in a tt position. That's fast enough and a pretty big gain over the field. Especially at gravel races I've attended where the steel frame hipsters regard tt bars as akin to cheating!
Fwiw - re: the pinky position-hold. I'm not sure that's such a no-no. I find relying on my arms and hands to steer is a bit sketchy. Steering becomes much more stable when holding my upper body steady with abdominals and steering is done more at the trunk/shoulders - if that makes any sense! Yes - it takes practice and after a few hundred miles you'll feel it. Still more efficient than battling a headwind with no tt position.
Mhh I have Aerobars on my road bike and when I use I see the speed increase on the speedometer. I can se what is in front of me but braking take time to switch Bars. But I will not remove them.
They are ideal for long rides
Iam Building a very nice TT bike at the Moment… can’t wait to ride it 😱😍
“Don’t try this at home”
Who rides at home. And if you do, it would be on a stationary and then that’s the time you should try that position. 😏
Superstars and Divas put their bodies, their careers and their lives on the line. They have spent years training and have a lifetime of experience. But what entertains you tears their bodies apart. So cheer for them, admire them, believe in them, but leave the action to them. Please DO NOT try this at home.
lol
@@cbyod Such a kill joy
@@BlaqRaq fack u. AEW AEW
While I can see you point, why would you want to be more aero on a stationary bike?
Now that I think about it, why would you want to be on a stationary bike anyways?
Has anyone considered using a periscope while the head is down (or a live screen camera view)?
Whst bike is this please and is the centre spacer tower custom made thanks
A camera and a screen should be installed on the handle bars so riders can see what’s ahead of them and be able to keep their head down. This will allow them to be aerodynamic
Where I live I see the occasional TT bike doing group rides with road bikes. I think the roadies are mad for allowing it but I guess if they are really good mates…
The best position: Sunny and Dry ! You would go a lot faster. Imagine rain and snow in Llandow wales, shocker.
Could you put a mirror system? So you have your head down but watching what you have in front of you?...
You should do these test, the ones that require such a constant as power output, with an E bike.
@Yippee Skippy I don't ride an e-bike. But I'm a fan of good science, and you need a good constant.
Why don't they use a mirror so that the rider can see where they are going while facing downward? The mirror casing can be made into different shapes to test it's aerodynamic and visibility.
Or even a small screen on the bars
I know how dangerous head down riding can be. Not because I do it, but brcause when descending on skis, for me xc skies, I do a similar thing (indeed more aero). But only when the weather is good or I know where I'm going. Whe have so called "classic tracks" (= snow grooves) and this improves saftey to some extend, because you are guided down the slope (not in cycling tho).
I find it dangerous to do the head down thing when descending when visibility os poor. I can't see where I'm going anyways, amd it's just not worth it. I can imagine it being no less scary and dangerous when cycling.
I'm really thinking there should be a mirror or something that lets people see the front when facing down.
Sounds like a UCI legal vs CTT legal TT position shoot-out is needed.
Maybe adding a mirror or a camera (so you can see the road ahead without raising your head) can make this position safe again?
I think for Ironman events, "drafting allowed" on road bikes would be safer than TT positions where riders can't really see the road ahead. Plus it makes it better for spectators.
Only reason I ever ride with my head down is just to rest my neck a bit, not because it's more aero. And I'm pretty careful about picking my spots when to do it, but you can never be 100% safe. I've had three close calls with deer while riding, and two of those were when I had my head down for a moment (one was just me going really fast downhill then going through an underpass with lights and I didn't see the deer on the other side of the underpass where it was dark). Thankfully, the deer have better reflexes than I do.
Why not try the glasses that have a mirror that allows you to look forwards while looking down?
Has someone ever tried to fix some kind of mirror in a 45°-angle to make it possible to see whether there is something in your way? I have to admit I put down my head everytime a lorry come up to me on the other side of the road, as they produce some kind of a wind wall, and I take the side marks of the road as an orientation. Concerning the problem, riders should try and make some gymnastics with their neck - I remember pics of Chris Boardman with his head really low and still able to look forward - so they are able to turtle better.
Periscope glasses are a thing. Not widely used, but they are a thing
Always ride head up as I find my aero helmet fits better on between my back
Yes, with the more pointy back end type aero helmets not the snub back end to nearly normal end where the helmet is just a more aero version of a normal racing helmet rather then a specialized helmet. In fact some places they do the Triathlons they do not allow the aero helmets due to the rules of the place they are racing in so they have to wear regular helmets or at least aero without the face shield so the rider has to face forward because due to physics of wind if head down they get more wind to the eyes in the gaps of the sports glasses.
which TT bike has longest reach for big people?
Try belay glasses. Eye glasses with prismatic lenses used by rock climbers so they can see their partner climbing without having to crane their neck to look up.
Glasses with mirrors that point forward so you can keep your head down?
I think there will always be heavy crashes in amateur events. Road cycling (and TT) is at the perfect "bad spot".
Other muscular motion sports have slow speed (running) or perfectly controlled environment (speed skate) or both.
Descent sports (downhill ski or mountain bike) are more "sprint" type of effort, very technical.
Motorsports are all about trajectories and motion doesn't cause directly exhaustion. And due to speed and budget involved, there's a lot consideration for safety in the event of a crash. Be it with tracks safety or vehicles safety. (With the exception of Tourist Trophy and its fatalities...)
In road cycling (and TT), we are fast on flat (between 30 to 50 km/h) enough to start being dangerous. We ride on open roads for long periods. Roads are not that technical at all most of the time and can be dull. The faster you are, the more exhausted you get. It's a direct effect since motion comes from you directly. It requires a lot of resilience to keep focus on the road driving while you try to extract your very last drop of energy, pushing your limits. Your mind can easily go blank, just driving in "autopilot", your remaining focus managing your effort... HERE is the danger.
In training and racing events humans are alway able to mange their risks...
Its not the responsibility of an organisation to make new regulations (fun police), when riders TRAIN in head down positions...
Maybe riders don't need to adopt a position with higher risks in dens traffic, within cities/villages or when they're exhausted...
IF you need to train the position in exhaustion... do it on long straight roads or on a stationary trainer.
same goes for cornering in races. "No rule" doesn't mean "DO IT!"
Next, try head down, but with the mirror glasses that Lloydy wore in a vid a few years ago.
I'd ban them TT bikes, why? 'Cos I don't have any, LOL
The time difference might be significant at top amateur or pro levels but having just done my first triathlon (on a normal bike) the time lost fighting to get a jersey on over a wet tri suit overshadowed any potential TT bike advantage 🙄
Interesting video but grim weather! Did Alex get danger money?
@@alexanderborisov8626 yeah, I got it into my head I needed to put a jersey on because it was cold and murky but you’re right, I didn’t need it. Also, I was doing a sprint triathlon so the transition faff was a greater % compared to the actual exercise.
It also depends how you wear your helmet. Sometimes you see them look down and helmet tail straight up. All but aero though.
That time trial bike looks awesome
I don't really use my TT bike on main roads more to the fact my hands aren't near the brakes
I really don’t understand, why they don’t build a little camera into the aero bars, and then display the video on the head unit…
Put a camera and a TFT screen on the aero bars so he can see where he is going.
Just a mirror or even better a prisma is the easier way
l think there should be way less rules concerning geometry and rider position. like when somebody needs to get their saddle a but further forward, let'em do it
Alex seems to have hit the rain call on the head, he has a career in the MET Office.
Why not add some camera and a small screen on the bike so when the rider's head is down they can still see whats in front
The riding position is honestly something i really dislike about sports biking, it makes the sport so incredibly uncomfortable and i hate when sports hurt people.
To me being hurt by the sport feels like a violation of the whole point, sports are supposed to be a show of the ability of the human body, and if you hurt yourself while doing that then you no longer have that ability!
It also leads to non-sports people replicating it and hurting themselves for no good reason, which is awful! Biking should be fun, not something uncomfortable that actively damages you!
Why not use a periscope?
where are you guys?
Hi, this was filmed at Llandow race circuit in Wales!
The giro helmet is very shared...I mean used.
I can see the mould spores from here
Some rock climbers use a kind of reflective glasses to help them look up without straining their necks. Maybe it could help us cyclists
Easy solution. invent a visor that mirrors the vision out the top of your helmet. A periscope like in ww1.
With all due respect, I’d argue that the majority of crashes on TT bikes could be alleviated by merely having brakes on the extensions. Surely, one manufacturer will ultimately produce an electronic braking groupset for TT extensions in the near future...
Braking with your weight forward, as it is in an aggressive tt position, could be dangerous
Easy fix put a phone sized camera on the handle bars and a small screen in front of their sight so they can look down safely and keep the aero position
"Literally gale winds and about to rain". Or as Manon would call it "A Welsh Summers day"
Can see lots of Praying mantis position in ironman trialthlon....UCI regulations dont apply there...its much safer for a long distance ironman bike course of 180km bike & its more comfortable for the full marathon run leg after the bike...UCI are too rigid
I think a lot of people look down to rest their neck, not only to be more aerodynamic
Yeah. You can assume a similar position on a road bike by leaning over the handlebars and resting your forearms along the hoods. It's not just a TT thing.
The pros also get any handlebar shape they want. Namely classic bend.
angled mirror?
Maxim câți km la oră atinge.
Maybe the UCI should consider bringing back recumbent bikes, which they banned in 1938, instead of TT bikes. They're still quite aero, but you can actually see where you're going. 😁
What's the rationale for the UCI rule?
"because we say so"
They should make like, mirror prism glasses/helmets so you can just see with your head down.
A small mirror on the head tube maybe?
I remember Erik Breukink with glasses that enabled him to do this in the TDF a few decades ago.
Eigan bernal was not looking where he was going
Based on other videos at this location, if the crows are not with you then likely the weather is not safe for a tt bike.
Have to bear in mind though that the pros who are riding had down are in a closed road course so they can follow the white lines. Amateurs are muppets if they feel they can ride like that on open roads with traffic and fellow cyclists around.
Didn't the UCI Ban the super tuck and say they did it so the amateur's wouldn't try to emulate the position even though there was never a known crash from it. So what's taking them so long to ban TT bikes after all the known and serious crashes. Oh what the TT bike is putting money into someone's pocket and the super tuck was just skill level.
Poor Alex in the stereotypical British suntanning weather.
Should agree - it's verry dangerous. Tried riding head down at home and crushed in to wall.
I have absolutely nothing to add to the conversation except to say that bike is freaking sweet!
disc brakes on a tt bike leaves me incredible confused
I'm half joking - front camera linked to phone / video screen on bars / cockpit area.
Easy, yeah?
dont you use camera for this????
I think UCI shall offer Ollie a work!
I’m enjoying the bike so far ruclips.net/user/postUgkxMesz3KOGEmwmvyKQfLfrRSUXLFzfVHZA My only real complaints are the brakes and the pedals. I feel like a bike designed for bigger people should have much larger pedals and more heavy duty brakes. I’ve only gotten two really good rides out of it, minimal downhill action, and the brakes feel like they’re already going out. A larger person has more momentum, so I think this wasn’t thought through very well. Also, I wear size 13-14 wide shoes. My feet cramp up on these pedals that are clearly made for smaller feet. Since I’m not a pro rider (and I don’t think many are who purchase this bike) I don’t think that the straps on the pedal are necessary at all. None of this takes away from the enjoyment I get from riding, however. I’ll just head to a bike shop to improve on a few things.
0:47 shouldn’t it be “only try this at home!” :-) on the trainer
Mirrors?
I want to see GCN and GMBN do a fat tire TT bike test over gravel.
Head down riding would happen on road bikes too. See Luke Plapp's TT at the UAE Tour this year. Banning TT bikes wouldn't stop riders from doing this.
Also, what constitutes a ban on TT bikes? So let's say you ban TT bikes.. teams just put aero bars on their aero bikes then. Let's say you ban aero bars, then teams start messing around with stack height and stem length and handle bar shape/width. You just end up with the same problems every time, because aerodynamics dictate the position.
@@davidspagnolo4870 Ban aerodynamics
Why allow aero (especially risky) positions in events at all? It’s supposed to be a competition between people, right?
Exactly. Everyone should be on cruiser bikes with flat handlebars and a bolt upright position.
Surprised nobody is wearing video goggles similar to drone operator googles with cameras.