TT position - High Hands Vs Low Hands. Time Trialling and Hambini response
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- Опубликовано: 16 окт 2024
- Just a bit of fun really, but gotta love the TT
Hambinis initial video: • TT Position ANALysis: ...
My crank length analysis: • Bicycle Crank Length D...
Messrs Hambini and Peak Torque: Best and least bs-riddled cycling discussion I've heard in ages - thanks, guys! 👍👍
Awesome intro! I always thought the orange jumpsuit was a French prison thing, but the plumbing career makes sense. But seriously, Hambini did a first rate job installing my IKEA except he stripped two of the fasteners because he doesn't own a bloody torque wrench plus I had to listen to him blathering on for two hours about radial deviation of the holes, and how they hadn't been bored from the same side, etc. By the way, my second sailboat was named "A__s of Humanity" and the marina did not take kindly to it.
Mate, just in general this channel is something I've been looking for for ages. Recently came across it and have been binge watching your videos. Providing excellent information and expertise and confirming some of my own thoughts that none of the mainstream outlets ever talk about. Thank you!
panchnl thank you so much. Please spread the word. Glad you enjoyed. Trying to find the time to make more videos! Cheers
Ahhh... Hambini, Luescher and you.
Haven't had this much fun learning physics since my high school physics teacher tripped on the extension chord for the laser. He was on about prisms, colour spectrum and optical index something or other. I learned a few things about gravity.
Please make these these back and forth reamings or cross references a regular thing. :D
Hambini thinks Luesher shouldn't repair carbon frames. You never can quite duplicate the factory materials and create a seamless bond. I suspect Hambini is partly correct. Luesher seems to know when a repair is safe and possible and when it's scrap.
People seem to disagree on what knots to use for their shoelaces No wonder aerodynamics or the structural integrity of a repaired carbon bike invites different points of view. This is not about general agreement, but independence and competence. Actual engineering analysis instead of marketing balderdash.
Luescher is very particular about what he will fix and what he wont
Spot on.
You are a great gift of unbiased knowledge for those who seek the truth of SPEED!!!
Haha great video. Love you both. The whole high hands thing gets misunderstood all the time (not by you) Its to enable you to move you elbows/ forearms forward which narrows your shoulders and also enabling your head to be lower. If you just put your hands up then you deserve a 'reaming'
Hallo hambini fans! Have to change my trousers now. 😂
Love it! Two of my favourite bike RUclips presenters!
Excellent video and love the to and fro between you and Hambini. Two faves!
This is the Eamon vs Frankie level of beef the cycling youtube community needed. love it.
You’re bang on with the slightly higher hands encouraging relaxation of the shoulders and allowing a lower head position. I use software in my bike fit process that measures rider frontal area. I consistently see riders being able to reduce their overall frontal area when using a slightly tilted pad and bar.
bikescience1 cheers. Good to know.
Cheers for the hello, i'm definitely here because of Hambini. Absolutely great video though, loved it! Loads of good stuff to ponder.
Pratalax subscribe then fck off 😜
Love the bambini roasting. Getting more into TT'ing - so great content!
Two smart guys discussing bike aerodynamics. Cool!
Me, and whos the other one sorry?
A lot of independent rider chose the Giro. What I do, and I've seen pro's do, (although not strictly legal) is to add some extra padding on the front inside of the helmet, so that the helmet sits more level while not having to strain the neck to much. If you can stay within the UCI limites you could try rotating forward to lower your front end. Other then that, shoe covers, aerobottle, a onepiece suite, the usual.. People that have properly tested raised versus lower arms, like Aerocoach, have explained that for most rider raised arms are faster but there can be very little in it & only if able to maintain power. There are several pro's that have stayed with low arms. I've spend a fair bit modeling & simulating in CFD & I'm often not that impressed with Hambini's "opinions". I always get the impression he's got something to prove.. What really does it for me though is him declaring this that and the other is the worst ... ever invented and then seeing the state of his bikes/garage and "workmate" while dropping his makeshift tools on the floor.. He truly must be a worldclass "plumber" lol..
ngl that was pretty good hambini impression. :-) welcome to the dark side
Nice vid! Aaaaaand... back to Hambini for the reaming of the reaming of the.....
This is a good analysis from an athlete's perspective. However, you may be missing one advantage of your semi mantis position - keeping some of the air from being "trapped" at your belly/hip area. Instead you push it outwards and around your body. Some of the same effect is achieved by using the POC Tempor or MET WideBody, reducing the drag created by your shoulder area.
Top marks, PT and Hambini. I love the collaboration and mild ribbing. It's obvious these two guys respect each other quite a bit. Chapeau gentlemen!
Like game of Cricket!
Great video! You are right, there is no way the flow coming off yours or R.Dennis' helmet is laminar. Just recently found your channel and finding the level of detail and engineering insight facinating. I would be intersted to hear your take/analysis on osymetric chain rings. Thanks!
Have not got osymetrics but on my fat bike................I could top out at 38kph on the flat but the pedal stroke was very choppy - changed to a oval ring - smooth pedal stroke - found the same on my road bike - my TT bike had them already fitted when i got it - more power?? I don’t think so just a smoother pedal stroke for those of us (me) with poor technique. I did look at osymetrics when i changed my road bike rings but was very unconvinced and still running 2x rings I’d have been dropping chains all day - so it’s q ring and black spire - and forget carbon rings on 2x setups - they don’t like shifting and you have a handful of teeth and a carbon paper weight
The art of TT. It is. No power meter will give you all the answers. Real world discussion here. Where to invest the watts. Certainly not downhill against a headwind! In that case aero really is king. Get so low your power drops along with comfort. Uphill with tailwind power rules unless you overcook it. Then you've lost time. Unfortunately you can't go back and try it again because conditions have changed. That is why it's an art. Great Hambini impression! Really? Fluid dynamics? A plumber?
Nice response and some good points about the bio mechanics. I'm a low hands fan, as long as they are in line with the forearms and you can hold the position.
Have you thought about attaching streamers in the form of yarn taped to a surface in the rear of the aero helmet to detect what kind of flow there is? Pretty easy to discern if its laminar or turbulent flow and thus isolate areas for aerodynamic improvement.
22:22 found it very interesting. Im a pretty short rider and can get pretty low to front wheel. and I have noticed a much bigger difference when I drop my bars closer to the wheel (slamed stem). Makes more sense definitely be focusing on this more
Fluid dynamics = Plumber
That has Hambini written all over it!
Awesome intro. Reminds me a lot of 1 of my other fave channels.
I think the theory behind the praying mantis position isn't anything to do with the helmet and the airflow around it but it's more about keeping as much air as possible from getting between the arm and your body.
I'm not sure what the UCI regulations are around TT/tri bars but I look at them and there's parts of them that look incredibly unaerodynamic and I wonder why they haven't been changed. My bolt on tri bars will get worked over one of these days to see what I can do with them.
The disc wheel thing at the end was a shock. Can you elaborate on what the sensations of riding one that you dont like?
I've ridden disc wheels for years on track and TT bikes and I LOVE the handling. Granted I'm riding at 50kph not 40, but still they seem super quick in cornering, and lower weight than a deep section wheel (and less rotational inertia for a given weight)
Hi, thank you for the interesting content!
Regarding improvement in FTP or CP for moderately trained cyclists, it would depend on the timeframe you have for improvements. If you are talking about a month 10% would generally be exceedingly difficult, but if you have 3-6 months 10% should be doable for a lot of ppl with a quality program that fits their physiology.
Regarding the tightness in your hips and quads, from what you describe I think I might be your hip flexors and rectus femoris (both hip flexor and knee extender) that’s a bit tight and implementing some stretches for them might help. This could also be a part of the reason for why you back injury occurred.
For the rectus femoris I would recommend active/passive stretching since that generally would give more functional adaptations on the bike. While on the hips flexors regular passive stretching should do the trick.
Keep making the content!
Very interesting thanks. What are some effective rectus femoris you can recommend?
@@PeakTorque This video her shows it pretty good, but instead of just holding the leg you'r stretching with you'r hand, you should put it on a chair or a box against a wall. That way you will have a lot more control over the stretch.
ruclips.net/video/HrhaL4XQaLs/видео.html
If you want to use a active/passive you should hold the passive stretch for 30 s then while holding the stretch try to push your leg back using a knee extension for 10 s, then release for 10 s, then repeat that 3 times.
For a regular passive stretch you just hold the stretch for 30-45 s and then release for 10 s and repeat 3 times.
Ann important note is to use a pad or pillow under the knee so you don't put to much pressure on the kneecap and patellae tendon.
Nice video! Wonder where the height cut-off is for the head and forearms entering the front wheel cone... and how this varies with rider velocity, wind velocity, yaw... . I'm also on the fence with disc wheels; for a course with very few points of acceleration for corners, and with considerable time spent at high yaw angles is where I see most upside
George C im not sure about the pressure theory. Hambini will clarify im sure. Agreed on the disc, feels like a right turd out of slow corners
@@PeakTorque Is the width of the front wheel cone significant? My head/helmet and (as a triathlete) shoulders are a lot wider than my front wheel.
Just remember defense goes to the lowest bidder.
LUV BB30 😂😂 damn
Well a 5 year old plumber with a disney wet blanket. Thanks for the response, but should of reemed his bottom bracket a bit harder! 👍
Great video, very interesting. Good to mention that it’s important to look ahead on the road. Some of those positions are way too extreme
🤣Brilliant, plumber Hambini
Yes, he knows the water spins clockwise in the toilet in southern hemisphere.
Great video! What about how close the hands are to each other? Are there any trends with hands touching at the end of bars versus a small gap?
I am also a 1.9m rider and love tt. Dont try and get me as low on the bike as my 1.65m friend.... Remember the wheel size for short and tall riders is the same...700c. Comfort is very important yes.👍
At 185cm I never feel jealous of short riders with the front wheel cone they enjoy. Their bikes weigh proportionally a lot more.
One thing is for sure: you have much higher Photoshop skills than mr. Hambini has.
Ok, and now back to the video.
Peter Busser PowerPoint photo edit!
wooowww, are you based in HK ? I was rather hoping if you could do a bit of an inspection on my chiense yoeleo frame , just out of curiosity , i wanna know how good or bad it is
23:22 if you look into his knee and quad muscle in relation to his body you can see it is much closer than in your photo which does not have anything to do with his or your height.
Also looking at his saddle you can see he is at the very tip of it, while you are comfortably positioned almost all the way back, he is almost standing like sprinting and looks like he is in lot of pain doing it, while you look pretty relaxed and comfortable.
His knee while pedaling goes higher than his elbow while yours is lower, again his upper body is much lower than yours is which again is not function of height but simply speaking he is more flexible than you are, or he is willing to suffer more than you are, I bet cycling in his position is best described as painful but he is still doing it like that.
Can we get more of you and hambini please
Joe R.K. We’ll try
One thing about the long/short helmet is that the dip behind the short helmet is on a fairly narrow width of your body. From the sides, the helmet tapers in towards your neck and shoulders. How much "dip" is actually there, and how much space does the long tail actually fill? I think the POC aero helmet addresses this, but others don't. The shoulders are exposed no matter what.
just watched and thought the roads looked familiar, just wanna ask what is your experience doing TTs in HK as its majority hilly terrain?
We always use castle peak road grom sham tseng onwards. Or sunny bay to airport. Those are pretty flat roads!
When looking to open your hip, have you got your saddle setback at the UCI minimum? If not that probably should be your go to approach to open the angle.
Hambini, fluid dynamics expert, also known as a toilet cleaner.
Love the Hambini van. He is truly a white van man with his toilet humour. Another great video.
did you have to have sugery for your disk? Did the disk push on nerves and effect legs? I'm looking at sugery here shortly as I'm loosing function in my right leg
Fucking engineers and PowerPoints. One important point is that a boundary layer transitioning to turbulence doesn't necessarily imply separation, which is the premise of the "dimples" on various surfaces, but I think you're totally right that aerodynamic optimization requires lots of real world testing, because the deltas cyclists are searching for are often too small to measure/predict with CFD or wind tunnel tests.
I like the "you've got 100 beans" analogy. I also think we the consumer need a way to use it whenever the industry tries to sell us the newest, most aero thing ever. Especially when it comes with a weight penalty. Which is something I've never seen addressed, the F=ma equation. Sure, saving 10w here or there are important, but what of it costs an extra 15-20w of effort to move that extra weight?
Pmsl 😂 loved every bit of this
Notice that the tail of Matt Bottrill's helmet is at a different angle and slope than most other helmets long tail or otherwise. The tail actually is flat when he is looking down. I Wonder if he can even look up without it digging into his back through. Either way he looks with his eyes not his neck - as should others
Flipping heck man that TT POSITION. I want that xD !! 22:35
Unrelated to the vid, can you recommend some good roads to train on in Hong Kong?
It is a tall person's world but when it comes to the extra large sizes of bikes they do look like "farm gates" - if you were able to increase the size of the bike's wheels what would you do (as well as the aesthetics, you could also improve that frontal pressure zone, should you at 6'5" really be riding a better proportioned frame with 30" wheels)?
And really small riders would do well with 26" wheels. The small bikes have strange frame geometry to accommodate wheels that are really too large. No market for 30" wheels yet.
@@davidburgess741 Yes and you do see 26" on XS bikes. Oversized wheels would be the hard part moving beyond the theoretical - I would imagine it would be comparatively easy for Peak Torque to CAD/CAM a frame and have it made by a titanium custom bike builder (alas not aero but would be proof of concept)
So who could build the tires for the 30 inch wheels? Tubulars maybe by special order? Tire manufacturer sponsoring a team of extra tall men!
@@davidburgess741 I have always thought an NBA Basketballer would do it - some of them do ride bikes and they have the money to commission custom hoops 😏
2000W+ peak power? Are you a Track Sprinter and a 50 Mile TT Specialist?
Well I watched this after I bought my helmet, but I got the giro just because I live in the middle of no where and it was really the only aero helmet I could get for a conceivable price. But now I feel more confident in that choice.
Was there a follow up by Hambini? Why is the original video set to private?
A longer helmet won't help much if it detaches the air. If your current helmet does neither, how good is it?
28:16 insert clip of Bernal nearly crashing in Tour de Suisse TT corner
hey just wondering if would be possible to get a link to where you got your kit?
in regard to your banter with that 5 year old Frenchman , you being a engineering kind of guy to you think that his one piece BB are actually suitable for current carbon frames ? A lot of people seem to have a lot of trouble and even once fitted they don't spin that well . Love the vlogs btw they always seem very informative
Would be curious if you could make an app for your 4-bar system. Most of use could easily do some measurements on a bike and least give us a "swag" on getting into a default "reasonable position" and then tune/adjust from there.
Make a cover that extends from the back of your helmet and onto your back.
Not scientific but when I swapped out my rear HED tri spoke for a disc wheel it felt much faster- almost like having a motor. After that I always used the disc unless there were severe cross- winds
Thank you peak torque and DRRRRRR Hambini!
wow how insightful! cheers mate that was a great watch
Wouldn't the void create a turbulant layer of air that reduces drag like f1 car aero?
I removed my aerobar spacers and got a massive increase in average speed at a slightly lower average power on our recent TT series (10 miles). I’m an extremely tall rider
Hambini 1 point up then
You're somewhat misunderstanding what "laminar flow" is and how it relates to attached flow. You don't need laminar flow to achieve attached flow. In fact, There are many cases where a laminar boundary layer is a lot more likely to separate than a turbulent one. This is why golf balls have dimples and some wings use vg's. But the main point here is that you shouldn't take it for granted that you'll have separated flow just because you have a high Re.
10% more power is objectively better than 10% lower CdA. The scaling is the same but drag only accounts for about 75% of your power dissipation.
Reducing your CdA by 10% is also really hard if you're already trying. You might go from .22 m^2 to .20 m^2? It'll almost certainly reduce your power output.
Is that Giant Hambini Orange?
Patrick Carroll shit. Haunting me now.
FTP increase of 10%.... not Hard! Especially not at the weekly mileage/duration you mention. Btw it does come with a physiological cost to get more slippery. It is harder for most to turtle and drop their shoulders, keep the head down, handling the bike in a TT position, folding yourself in half by way of vending the back and/or anterior pelvic tilt, triceps fatigue and so on. Sure there are adjustments that are free-ish, but the rest you gotta push the power to unweight yourself, gotta have the strength and flexibility to fold yourself and hold that fold, time on the bike to get accustomed to the position, neck fatigue, eyeballing etc. Structuring your training is more free than getting more aero.
so basically what Hambini and Peak Torque are saying, is that it would make sense for aero reasons to have bike size specific wheel sizes? That way, a rider could be positioned in the most aerodynamic position on a bike regardless of his height?
Not really, because the wheel has its own drag of course. I assume that smaller wheels are almost always faster regardless of the minor gains to be had with rider-wheel interaction, up until the point where handling becomes an issue.
Do you toe down slightly when cranks are at 6 o'clock?
sabamacx as long as within the range its all good.
I do with the right leg, not with the left leg. Im completely wonky. Working on it.
Studies show that praying mantis or full s bend low is maximum aero. Going in between that only slows you down and only has the purpose of comfort
yeah Elevate for Strava is great. Been using that for years.
I can hear your hard drive clicking. You might want to replace that soon.
Its an ssd. You can probably hear the desk fan. Its 36 degrees here
Probably the bottom bracket
@@PeakTorque i hear the clickin too, obv u have ssd since ur hd died a bit ago, but something is hitting clicking.
I thought it was the camera's continuous AF that's clicking.
If he using a canon lens is probably the ois
Interesting that hand position by Hambini counters Jim Manton 's IRL testing in the LA Velo who like higher aka praying mantis style.
Just a thought on your TT position especially @14mins it looks as if your saddle is too high judging by toes point down? You know way more than me about these things but I have heard about some TT riders going the other way and having the saddle too low for optimum power to export aero gains... Great channel by the way mate!
sorry, I should have read it back to eliminate typos
How do you even ride in Hong Kong with those tiny streets?
@Mr Philippe Cosentino still too small in Beijing standards lmao
That pass by the bus gave me shivers.
leaving us traumatised with the intro - i thought this was a hambini safe zone / free zone
Wind-tunnels aren't the open highway, to test properly the wind and wheel speeds must match for no wind tests at bike speed.
A biggie is angling the platform 3° both sides data, that's minimum crosswinds apparent AOA at TT speeds.
Then, ya' gotta' do gusts in 15-17kt steady with gusts to 25kt data.
In crosswinds try forearms parallel to the ground, hands down, elbows almost touching and ~120° upper to lower arm angle.
I bet 5-beers this is fastest on the road, that's my commute winds 2-3 days a week as headwinds & cross-headwinds.
Cheers 🍺
Really good video, thanks 🙏🏽
Hambini simply the best ..
Love the truck!!
I'll get my popcorn then.
I suggest you read more on exercise physiology, try Stephen Seiler.
Yeah, there was an awful lot of conjecture there, on position analysis and physiology (or anatomy!).
stop being blinker,ed Hambini is right as always
I would normally go for the flat forearms position with slightly wide elbow position and hands practically thouching, for three reasons:
1) Safety. I personally find the 'praying mantis' to be extremely sketchy. If I don't feel safe, I can neither keep an aero position, or push significant power. I might just be doing it wrong though.
2) Stability. The slightly wider elbow position helps me to keep a still upper body, which is both good for aerodynamics (not sure if this outweighs the increase in frontal area) and power output.
3) Sustainability. Even though it might be a little bit less aerodynamic than narrow elbows, this way can sustain the position for at least an hour in triathlon. For short TTs I do actually space the elbow pads close together and just suffer the discomfort.
It's a difficult trade-off. There are so many factors, it's hard to say which is more important, and impossible to scientifically quantify the comfort units per aero gains.
But what about fast hands???
Disc is faster except for uphill TT. Really fast in windy conditions.
Noway would @hambini drive any van other than a supercharged Toyota Hiace
I think he’s a Ford man
@@PeakTorque if only the French made one ;-)
@@PeakTorque it would be an ST with the stripes
Good hearted jabbing! Hahaha. Shorter tail is better unless you're on a velodrome. I am faster with flat arms and hands. Rode a loop at different powers and analyzed the data. Data was very clear. Flat hands. You'll know if your back and head are aero. You can feel the air flowing over your back.
The flexibility picture may explain the herniated disc 🤔
I remember when I TT'd 16-22 years ago. There was none of this. Just got on your bike and raced essentially. This seems to suck the fun out of TT'ing, especially when talking about club or regional level.
New generation I guess but I personally don't get it. More time should be spent enjoying cycling for what it is, not analysing everything and spending thousands to go from a 53 minute 25 mile tt to a 52 minute.
Excuse me, but why air friction (newtons, right?) is directly proportional to the squared speed, and power wasted (watts or joules) is directly proportional to the cube of the speed? Wtf (Until now I've done just 2 years of physics at school)
Fuck, the joules are a whole other thing
Hi Luca. Power = work / time = force * velocity. Since the force (drag) is proportional to the velocity squared, power is proportional to the velocity cubed.
@@shibaburn7725 Thankss 👌🏿💪🏿💪🏿
We are not streamline shaped? I beg to differ. In fact most of in esp. the woman in GB are in fact very "streamline shaped".
*HALLO HAMBINI FANS*
I reckon an aero fanny pack would be the fastest thing ever made
Thank you
So my next bike will be:
Luescher Carbon Manufacturing
Hambini Aerodynamics & Engineering
Peak Torque Quality Control & Testing
Let me know so I can cancel my mortgage.